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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The pollsters might have to start applying a shy Labour fil

SystemSystem Posts: 3,967
edited September 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The pollsters might have to start applying a shy Labour filter

Judging by the opening attacks from the Conservatives greeting Jeremy Corbyn being elected Labour leader you get the feeling Corbyn’s victory was foretold in The Book of Revelation somewhere between The Seven Headed Dragon and The Whore of Babylon.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,292
    First! I wonder, will shy Labours voters outnumber lazy Labour voters?
  • JackWJackW Posts: 12,920
    Not so much the shy as the disappeared ....

    Will the last Labour voter please turn the lights out ....
  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,292
    JackW said:

    Not so much the shy as the disappeared ....

    Will the last Labour voter please turn the lights out ....

    Up early for your morning ablutions, Jack? :D
  • Just what's needed!

    Another straw for Labour supporters to clutch at.......
  • "Your story needs to be positive and differentiating."

    very positive
  • JackWJackW Posts: 12,920
    RobD said:

    JackW said:

    Not so much the shy as the disappeared ....

    Will the last Labour voter please turn the lights out ....

    Up early for your morning ablutions, Jack? :D
    I have to ensure the essentials are undertaken before the sun rises ....

    :smile:

  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 8,879
    For those music lovers out there - http://www.itv.com/news/2015-09-14/music-from-anne-boleyns-songbook-performed-for-first-time-in-500-years/

    Could be interesting, given the double games of Tudor Catholic families, composers. Anne Boleyn's choice of music may have acted as a signal for her support for Protestantism. Given the paranoia of the time about subversive religious influences it was a brave move.
  • I doubt it very much. Being a Corbynista is a badge of honour, isn't it? If anything, I suspect polls will continue to overstate Labour support when compared to actual elections.

    Nervous Tories might seek reasons to be worried by JC, but there aren't any. He is a glorious gift. As he has shown since Saturday.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 18,490
    This seems to ignore the moral conceit of Labour supporters.

    Wilson said Labour is morally conceited or it is nothing, or something very like that. It will be the last thing to go. When every choice has been shown to be idiotic, damaging and completely impractical Labour supporters will know that they meant well and are the better for it.
  • Many found some of Ed's policies attractive, but it did not attract enough voters. Attractive, headline-grabbing policies help get polling wins; a coherent vision matters more at the election.

    The question is whether Corbyn's overall platform will be attractive to enough voters to make him PM.
  • The new labour types have been very quiet in the last few days but their egos won't allow that for long. I understand the Labour Party conference is imminent, I expect unprecedented scenes of discontent sending this site into raptures. The Corbyn circus hasn't even started yet.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 10,190
    There’s such a thing a crying “wolf”!
  • EstobarEstobar Posts: 558
    The red tops are in a belligerent anti-Corbyn mood this morning. I'm not sure how long he will survive the onslaught but the media needs a counter-attack. For too long British politics has been driven by sucking-up to Murdoch.

    What's certain though is that the tories badly miscalculated with their national security message and it has backfired on them, which serves them right for being so negative. One of Cameron's great weaknesses is a tendency to come over as bullying.
  • I doubt it very much. Being a Corbynista is a badge of honour, isn't it? If anything, I suspect polls will continue to overstate Labour support when compared to actual elections.

    Nervous Tories might seek reasons to be worried by JC, but there aren't any. He is a glorious gift. As he has shown since Saturday.

    You're right but so is TSE. There are two opposing dynamics here, both shy Labour voters and loud Corbynistas (who nonetheless might still not get round to voting). To some extent they will cancel each other out but it'd still be better to have two filters rather than relying on them neutralising each other.

    There is another large group of shy Labour voters in addition to those TSE identifies, and that's those who'll vote Labour for local reasons such as the candidate or liking what a local Labour council is doing (though this may be offset by left-leaning voters who won't vote Labour for similarly local reasons).

    But the big picture is that Corbyn will turn off far more than he'll enthuse. Undoubtedly, there is a very vocal section who are delighted by his election but there'll be more who might like some aspects of his policy manifesto from outside the consensus but still won't vote for him because of one (and probably more than one) red light in another area: too risky on the economy, or on defence, or taxes or whatever.
  • EstobarEstobar Posts: 558
    Re. the silly quote about bin Laden it is taken totally out of context. Yes of course he should have been put on trial not just riddled with bullets.
  • We also might get the totally new phenomenon of Lying Tories,, who tell opinion pollsters that they are going to vote Labour, just to keep Corbyn in the job.
  • Estobar said:

    The red tops are in a belligerent anti-Corbyn mood this morning. I'm not sure how long he will survive the onslaught but the media needs a counter-attack. For too long British politics has been driven by sucking-up to Murdoch.

    What's certain though is that the tories badly miscalculated with their national security message and it has backfired on them, which serves them right for being so negative. One of Cameron's great weaknesses is a tendency to come over as bullying.

    I am amazed that you can be so certain it has backfired. The wider electorate have no idea who corbyn is. Their own initial first impression will be the headlines in the papers and these videos.
  • EstobarEstobar Posts: 558

    I doubt it very much. Being a Corbynista is a badge of honour, isn't it? If anything, I suspect polls will continue to overstate Labour support when compared to actual elections.

    Nervous Tories might seek reasons to be worried by JC, but there aren't any. He is a glorious gift. As he has shown since Saturday.

    loud Corbynistas who nonetheless might still not get round to voting.
    The evidence from the leadership election suggests that's not going to be a problem
  • The new labour types have been very quiet in the last few days but their egos won't allow that for long. I understand the Labour Party conference is imminent, I expect unprecedented scenes of discontent sending this site into raptures. The Corbyn circus hasn't even started yet.

    surely the majority at conference will be those who just voted corbyn in as leader. Yes perhaps they'll be planning on having some debates, which will be unusual. they might even make some decisions
  • The new labour types have been very quiet in the last few days but their egos won't allow that for long. I understand the Labour Party conference is imminent, I expect unprecedented scenes of discontent sending this site into raptures. The Corbyn circus hasn't even started yet.

    They won't be unprecedented - go back to the conferences of the 1980s or earlier for discontent as routine - and it might be too soon anyway when set against Corbyn's landslide win. Besides, Kendall, as the New Labour candidate, polled 4.5%; just how many New Labour types are there left in the party?

    But next year might be a different matter.
  • EstobarEstobar Posts: 558
    edited September 2015

    Estobar said:

    The red tops are in a belligerent anti-Corbyn mood this morning. I'm not sure how long he will survive the onslaught but the media needs a counter-attack. For too long British politics has been driven by sucking-up to Murdoch.

    What's certain though is that the tories badly miscalculated with their national security message and it has backfired on them, which serves them right for being so negative. One of Cameron's great weaknesses is a tendency to come over as bullying.

    I am amazed that you can be so certain it has backfired. The wider electorate have no idea who corbyn is. Their own initial first impression will be the headlines in the papers and these videos.
    In the first place there's no-one in the country that doesn't now know who Corbyn is. He has dominated discussion for months, especially on social media.

    In the second place you vastly, vastly, over-estimate the importance of newspapers. People don't read the dead tree press like they used to. Readership is dropping like a stone. In fact I know no-one under the age of 40 who reads them except the commuter freebies. These are circulation figures, let alone readership. The days when newspapers are that important has passed http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/apr/10/national-daily-newspapers-lose-more-than-half-a-million-readers-in-past-year
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_in_the_United_Kingdom_by_circulation
  • Estobar said:

    The red tops are in a belligerent anti-Corbyn mood this morning. I'm not sure how long he will survive the onslaught but the media needs a counter-attack. For too long British politics has been driven by sucking-up to Murdoch.

    What's certain though is that the tories badly miscalculated with their national security message and it has backfired on them, which serves them right for being so negative. One of Cameron's great weaknesses is a tendency to come over as bullying.

    "Murdoch"

    You are fighting the last parliament's battles. Ed and Tom thought that bashing Murdoch would help win them the election. They were wrong.

    Worse, they utterly ignored the far worse crimes that occurred at the Mirror Group. Except they did not, of course. Because the 'crimes' they were interested in were nothing to do with phone hacking, but the 'crime' of not supporting Labour.

    Likewise, BJO's posting of a particularly pathetic poster last night shows that Labour supporters have not even begun too decipher why their efforts utterly failed at the GE. Instead, they're regressing to their comfort ground, which in reality is a padded room in a particularly secure mental unit.
  • We also might get the totally new phenomenon of Lying Tories,, who tell opinion pollsters that they are going to vote Labour, just to keep Corbyn in the job.

    Totally new?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 2,282

    The new labour types have been very quiet in the last few days but their egos won't allow that for long. I understand the Labour Party conference is imminent, I expect unprecedented scenes of discontent sending this site into raptures. The Corbyn circus hasn't even started yet.

    They won't be unprecedented - go back to the conferences of the 1980s or earlier for discontent as routine - and it might be too soon anyway when set against Corbyn's landslide win. Besides, Kendall, as the New Labour candidate, polled 4.5%; just how many New Labour types are there left in the party?

    But next year might be a different matter.
    I suspect that the mood of the conference will be very pro-Corbyn. Undoubtedly it will add to the dismay of the New Labour types.

    LD conference may be interesting too. Will they lurch left as well?
  • About time if so....
  • We also might get the totally new phenomenon of Lying Tories,, who tell opinion pollsters that they are going to vote Labour, just to keep Corbyn in the job.

    Some of whom may have helped put him there in the first place....

    And welcome to PB.com - lurker, or have you regenerated like the Doctor?
  • Estobar said:

    I doubt it very much. Being a Corbynista is a badge of honour, isn't it? If anything, I suspect polls will continue to overstate Labour support when compared to actual elections.

    Nervous Tories might seek reasons to be worried by JC, but there aren't any. He is a glorious gift. As he has shown since Saturday.

    loud Corbynistas who nonetheless might still not get round to voting.
    The evidence from the leadership election suggests that's not going to be a problem
    You think? Corbyn attracted 88k registered supporters and 41k affiliates - we can ignore party members who we can be reasonably sure would vote Labour whoever won. So 130k voters out of a national voting base of 30m+. The rest is Twitterati-Facebook froth.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 8,879
    edited September 2015
    Re Corbyn, the polling yesterday put down a marker of hostility from the 55+ age groups. He didn't appear to be rated very highly by them, and as OGH keeps saying these cohorts vote.

    A fair proportion of these groups in the South will remember Corbyn's support for the IRA, and other unpopular causes, (not with affection). The Labour Party in Islington split, look at early SDP founders.

    This from 2001 BBC coverage. http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/vote2001/results_constituencies/constituencies/341.stm

    Re Cameron and Corbyn over security, ill judged defence reviews don't help your case to kick Jezza.
  • What does jc mean for leader debates next time?
  • Estobar said:

    The red tops are in a belligerent anti-Corbyn mood this morning. I'm not sure how long he will survive the onslaught but the media needs a counter-attack. For too long British politics has been driven by sucking-up to Murdoch.

    What's certain though is that the tories badly miscalculated with their national security message and it has backfired on them, which serves them right for being so negative. One of Cameron's great weaknesses is a tendency to come over as bullying.

    I am amazed that you can be so certain it has backfired. The wider electorate have no idea who corbyn is. Their own initial first impression will be the headlines in the papers and these videos.
    Things move fast in Estobar's world.....yesterday it was posited that Cameron had flown to Lebanon on Monday after Corbyn's victory on Saturday....(tho how Cameron had outspent the rest of the EU on Syrian refugee relief for the last 3 years in anticipation of Corbyn's victory remains unexplained....)
  • EstobarEstobar Posts: 558

    Estobar said:

    I doubt it very much. Being a Corbynista is a badge of honour, isn't it? If anything, I suspect polls will continue to overstate Labour support when compared to actual elections.

    Nervous Tories might seek reasons to be worried by JC, but there aren't any. He is a glorious gift. As he has shown since Saturday.

    loud Corbynistas who nonetheless might still not get round to voting.
    The evidence from the leadership election suggests that's not going to be a problem
    You think? Corbyn attracted 88k registered supporters and 41k affiliates - we can ignore party members who we can be reasonably sure would vote Labour whoever won. So 130k voters out of a national voting base of 30m+. The rest is Twitterati-Facebook froth.
    You're being very very silly David and I suspect you know it. 425,000 out of an eligible 500,000 voted in the leadership election and he won 60% against the next nearest 20%. It was a huge mandate and response. Corbyn won't have any problem whatsoever getting his own supporters to vote. Total red herring, ho ho.

    The real issue will be whether the soft left new Labourites will vote for him. Now that's a very different and more real issue.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,364
    An amusing thread by TSE. I almost think I woke in a parallel universe where everything is arse about face.

    Shy Corbyn isn't going to happen. The man is marmite, in fact he is marmite that's gone off.. There wont be any hovering over ballots in 2020 unless its long term Labour voters unable to vote for the loony left.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 16,984
    Estobar said:

    The red tops are in a belligerent anti-Corbyn mood this morning. I'm not sure how long he will survive the onslaught but the media needs a counter-attack. For too long British politics has been driven by sucking-up to Murdoch.

    What's certain though is that the tories badly miscalculated with their national security message and it has backfired on them, which serves them right for being so negative. One of Cameron's great weaknesses is a tendency to come over as bullying.

    Labour underestimated security messages of all hues in the 2015 GE and got reamed.
  • Estobar said:

    Estobar said:

    The red tops are in a belligerent anti-Corbyn mood this morning. I'm not sure how long he will survive the onslaught but the media needs a counter-attack. For too long British politics has been driven by sucking-up to Murdoch.

    What's certain though is that the tories badly miscalculated with their national security message and it has backfired on them, which serves them right for being so negative. One of Cameron's great weaknesses is a tendency to come over as bullying.

    I am amazed that you can be so certain it has backfired. The wider electorate have no idea who corbyn is. Their own initial first impression will be the headlines in the papers and these videos.
    In the first place there's no-one in the country that doesn't now know who Corbyn is. He has dominated discussion for months, especially on social media.

    In the second place you vastly, vastly, over-estimate the importance of newspapers. People don't read the dead tree press like they used to. Readership is dropping like a stone. In fact I know no-one under the age of 40 who reads them except the commuter freebies. These are circulation figures, let alone readership. The days when newspapers are that important has passed http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/apr/10/national-daily-newspapers-lose-more-than-half-a-million-readers-in-past-year
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_in_the_United_Kingdom_by_circulation
    So why so scared of Murdoch then?
  • EstobarEstobar Posts: 558

    Estobar said:

    The red tops are in a belligerent anti-Corbyn mood this morning. I'm not sure how long he will survive the onslaught but the media needs a counter-attack. For too long British politics has been driven by sucking-up to Murdoch.

    What's certain though is that the tories badly miscalculated with their national security message and it has backfired on them, which serves them right for being so negative. One of Cameron's great weaknesses is a tendency to come over as bullying.

    Instead, they're regressing to their comfort ground, which in reality is a padded room in a particularly secure mental unit.
    There we go again. The tory response of personal attack and particularly to say that those with whom they disagree should be locked up in a mental hospital.

    It's chilling.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 62,039
    edited September 2015

    What does jc mean for leader debates next time?

    Means Sajid Javid's going to kick Corbyn's backside in the debates.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 16,984

    An amusing thread by TSE. I almost think I woke in a parallel universe where everything is arse about face.

    Shy Corbyn isn't going to happen. The man is marmite, in fact he is marmite that's gone off.. There wont be any hovering over ballots in 2020 unless its long term Labour voters unable to vote for the loony left.

    He's Miliband on a vegan diet with added beard and sexism.
  • EstobarEstobar Posts: 558
    edited September 2015
    For me, and I think a lot of people on here miss this, the importance of Corbyn is not whether he can win a General Election. I frankly don't really care. He might become PM before 2020 by dint of parliamentary problems, but it remains unlikely.

    No, the real importance is to pull British political discourse not just left but out of the Murdoch media lock and he's already done it. We're debating things on here and in the country that have been largely untouched for twenty years. We are starting to face up to issues in both domestic and international policy that were taken as no-go's. It's a sea change, a shift in zeitgeist, that is ultimately very, very, good for the future.
  • I've always wanted to get The Whore of Babylon into a thread header.
  • Estobar said:

    Estobar said:

    The red tops are in a belligerent anti-Corbyn mood this morning. I'm not sure how long he will survive the onslaught but the media needs a counter-attack. For too long British politics has been driven by sucking-up to Murdoch.

    What's certain though is that the tories badly miscalculated with their national security message and it has backfired on them, which serves them right for being so negative. One of Cameron's great weaknesses is a tendency to come over as bullying.

    Instead, they're regressing to their comfort ground, which in reality is a padded room in a particularly secure mental unit.
    There we go again. The tory response of personal attack and particularly to say that those with whom they disagree should be locked up in a mental hospital.

    It's chilling.
    Only if you're being particularly silly, or do not understand English.

    BTW, it's be good if you learnt to add (snip) to posts when you've snipped them, just to avoid misrepresenting people.

    Oh, and I'm not a Tory (tm).

    Aside from that, good post. ;)
  • Here's another, was Labour's lurch to the left partly a result of George's summer budget and especially the living wage meaning the reds were pushed off the centre? So in fact jc and Mcdonnell are a result of the boy genius?
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 8,879
    edited September 2015
    For some with long memories of Corbyn, Labour and the SDP.

    The obit for the previous Islington North MP.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/obituary-michael-ohalloran-1125332.html
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,094
    Estobar said:

    The red tops are in a belligerent anti-Corbyn mood this morning. I'm not sure how long he will survive the onslaught but the media needs a counter-attack. For too long British politics has been driven by sucking-up to Murdoch.

    What's certain though is that the tories badly miscalculated with their national security message and it has backfired on them, which serves them right for being so negative. One of Cameron's great weaknesses is a tendency to come over as bullying.

    I take it by red tops you mean the Guardian and the Independent this morning. And what is your evidence that the Tories have miscalculated - twitter?
  • Estobar said:

    For me, and I think a lot of people on here miss this, the importance of Corbyn is not whether he can win a General Election. I frankly don't really care. He might become PM before 2020 by dint of parliamentary problems, but it remains unlikely.

    No, the real importance is to pull British political discourse not just left but out of the Murdoch media lock and he's already done it. We're debating things on here and in the country that have been largely untouched for twenty years. We are starting to face up to issues in both domestic and international policy that were taken as no-go's. It's a sea change, a shift in zeitgeist, that is ultimately very, very, good for the future.

    Lol. Murdoch again. It's almost as if you've forgotten that that line did not work over the last five years (a period that only started when Murdoch committed the traitorous crime of not backing Labour). It's crazy how some people fixate on Murdoch.

    In fact, it's chilling.
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,094

    The new labour types have been very quiet in the last few days but their egos won't allow that for long. I understand the Labour Party conference is imminent, I expect unprecedented scenes of discontent sending this site into raptures. The Corbyn circus hasn't even started yet.

    surely the majority at conference will be those who just voted corbyn in as leader. Yes perhaps they'll be planning on having some debates, which will be unusual. they might even make some decisions
    That's right - I think the issue here is what the MPs are going to say - I've no doubt they'll be heckled and criticised at conference - but will they be silenced? If so there are plenty of media outlets for them.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 16,984
    edited September 2015
    Estobar said:

    For me, and I think a lot of people on here miss this, the importance of Corbyn is not whether he can win a General Election. I frankly don't really care. He might become PM before 2020 by dint of parliamentary problems, but it remains unlikely.

    No, the real importance is to pull British political discourse not just left but out of the Murdoch media lock and he's already done it. We're debating things on here and in the country that have been largely untouched for twenty years. We are starting to face up to issues in both domestic and international policy that were taken as no-go's. It's a sea change, a shift in zeitgeist, that is ultimately very, very, good for the future.

    He has succeeded in that - he's dragged a small section of the voters who didn't read the Sun and made them feel good about not reading it.

    This section won't decide any election though as it will - and has repeatedly- voted for a donkey with a red rosette.
  • Estobar said:

    For me, and I think a lot of people on here miss this, the importance of Corbyn is not whether he can win a General Election. I frankly don't really care. He might become PM before 2020 by dint of parliamentary problems, but it remains unlikely.

    ...

    Can you give one plausible scenario of how that might happen?

    Do you really think the DUP, UUP or even Lib Dems are going to vote Corbyn into Downing St? On a Vote of Confidence, Cameron can count on a minimum majority of about 40 at the moment.
  • dr_spyn said:

    Re Corbyn, the polling yesterday put down a marker of hostility from the 55+ age groups. He didn't appear to be rated very highly by them, and as OGH keeps saying these cohorts vote.

    He doesn't do that well among the 35-55 group either.....

    'Best PM - Corbyn vs Cameron - net Corbyn:

    18-34: +5
    35-55: -19
    55+: -35

    Corbyn fit to be PM - Net agree:

    18-34: +10
    35-55: -8
    55+: -27

    Corbyn still Labour leader at GE2020: Net agree:

    18-34: +28
    35-55: +10
    55+: 0

    Corbyn leader makes you more likely to vote Labour: Net

    18-34: +10
    35-55: -5
    55+: -20

    http://survation.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Corbyn-Full-Data-Tables.pdf
  • EstobarEstobar Posts: 558
    edited September 2015

    Estobar said:

    Estobar said:

    The red tops are in a belligerent anti-Corbyn mood this morning. I'm not sure how long he will survive the onslaught but the media needs a counter-attack. For too long British politics has been driven by sucking-up to Murdoch.

    What's certain though is that the tories badly miscalculated with their national security message and it has backfired on them, which serves them right for being so negative. One of Cameron's great weaknesses is a tendency to come over as bullying.

    Instead, they're regressing to their comfort ground, which in reality is a padded room in a particularly secure mental unit.
    There we go again. The tory response of personal attack and particularly to say that those with whom they disagree should be locked up in a mental hospital.

    It's chilling.
    BTW, it's be good if you learnt to add (snip) to posts when you've snipped them, just to avoid misrepresenting people.
    I quoted you verbatim: 'Instead, they're regressing to their comfort ground, which in reality is a padded room in a particularly secure mental unit.'

    If you had your time again I think you would have phrased that more felicitously and appropriately. There's no need to descend to the red-top standards on here with insinuations of lunacy against those with whom one disagrees.

    Bedlam is a literal and metaphorical place where we scapegoat those with whom we disagree (so, Jacque Derrida). It's a chilling concept.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 34,492
    Estobar said:

    We're debating things on here and in the country that have been largely untouched for twenty years.

    Indeed. Questions like...

    Should women be appointed to senior position in Government, or are they only good for cleaning houses and making babies?

    Are terrorists the good guys who should be honoured?

    Is Zimbabwe a good economic model to follow?

    Is it time to forget Remembrance Day?
    Estobar said:

    It's a sea change, a shift in zeitgeist, that is ultimately very, very, good for the future.

    It's a tragedy.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 8,879
    @CarlottaVance Thanks to the computer crashing, I couldn't find the figures for the other age groups, but recalled the trend for 55+.
  • Here's another, was Labour's lurch to the left partly a result of George's summer budget and especially the living wage meaning the reds were pushed off the centre? So in fact jc and Mcdonnell are a result of the boy genius?

    No, it's a result of Brown squashing up-and-coming talent and Miliband faffing about with the rules. But Osborne's budget is perfectly placed to take advantage of a gap that was opening up anyway.
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,094
    Estobar said:

    Estobar said:

    Estobar said:

    The red tops are in a belligerent anti-Corbyn mood this morning. I'm not sure how long he will survive the onslaught but the media needs a counter-attack. For too long British politics has been driven by sucking-up to Murdoch.

    What's certain though is that the tories badly miscalculated with their national security message and it has backfired on them, which serves them right for being so negative. One of Cameron's great weaknesses is a tendency to come over as bullying.

    Instead, they're regressing to their comfort ground, which in reality is a padded room in a particularly secure mental unit.
    There we go again. The tory response of personal attack and particularly to say that those with whom they disagree should be locked up in a mental hospital.

    It's chilling.
    BTW, it's be good if you learnt to add (snip) to posts when you've snipped them, just to avoid misrepresenting people.
    I quoted you verbatim: 'Instead, they're regressing to their comfort ground, which in reality is a padded room in a particularly secure mental unit.'

    If you had your time again I think you would have phrased that more felicitously and appropriately. There's no need to descend to the red-top standards on here with insinuations of lunacy against those with whom one disagrees.

    Bedlam is a literal and metaphorical place where we scapegoat those with whom we disagree (so, Jacque Derrida). It's a chilling concept.
    You got fixated on mental health yesterday - time to change the record methinks?
  • Does Alan Johnson still exist? Presumably he'll be the permared on this week and no more Diane? That's a plus if so.
  • EstobarEstobar Posts: 558
    Scott_P said:

    Estobar said:

    We're debating things on here and in the country that have been largely untouched for twenty years.


    Are terrorists the good guys who should be honoured?

    Estobar said:

    It's a sea change, a shift in zeitgeist, that is ultimately very, very, good for the future.

    It's a tragedy.
    If, forty-one years ago on the morning of 12th October 1984 you had suggested entering into a power sharing dialogue with the political wing of a terrorist group you would have been described by some as a lunatic and a threat to national security. You'd have been hounded by the red-tops, dismissed to the margins, heaped with insults.

    The discourses you find so astonishing today will be the bread and butter of tomorrow.
  • Estobar said:

    For me, and I think a lot of people on here miss this, the importance of Corbyn is not whether he can win a General Election. I frankly don't really care. He might become PM before 2020 by dint of parliamentary problems, but it remains unlikely.

    No, the real importance is to pull British political discourse not just left but out of the Murdoch media lock and he's already done it. We're debating things on here and in the country that have been largely untouched for twenty years. We are starting to face up to issues in both domestic and international policy that were taken as no-go's. It's a sea change, a shift in zeitgeist, that is ultimately very, very, good for the future.

    Fair point, but under scrutiny Corbyn's crazy ideas will be exposed, his supporters should enjoy their time in the sun, it won't last long.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 34,492
    Estobar said:

    entering into a power sharing dialogue with the political wing of a terrorist group

    A deal that has collapsed because the terrorists didn't give up.

    And you still think they should be honoured?

    Th reason we stopped talking about most of Corbyn's agenda 20 years ago is becuase it was bat-shit crazy then, and hasn't aged well
  • We also might get the totally new phenomenon of Lying Tories,, who tell opinion pollsters that they are going to vote Labour, just to keep Corbyn in the job.

    Some of whom may have helped put him there in the first place....

    And welcome to PB.com - lurker, or have you regenerated like the Doctor?
    I occasionally posted some years ago, and have always lurked, but yes, this is my first dip back in the water.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    dr_spyn said:

    Re Corbyn, the polling yesterday put down a marker of hostility from the 55+ age groups. He didn't appear to be rated very highly by them, and as OGH keeps saying these cohorts vote.

    He doesn't do that well among the 35-55 group either.....

    'Best PM - Corbyn vs Cameron - net Corbyn:

    18-34: +5
    35-55: -19
    55+: -35

    Corbyn fit to be PM - Net agree:

    18-34: +10
    35-55: -8
    55+: -27

    Corbyn still Labour leader at GE2020: Net agree:

    18-34: +28
    35-55: +10
    55+: 0

    Corbyn leader makes you more likely to vote Labour: Net

    18-34: +10
    35-55: -5
    55+: -20

    http://survation.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Corbyn-Full-Data-Tables.pdf
    Those are pretty damning figures! Though in an election it would not be DC vs JC. For the Tories to triumph in the next election they need to avoid electing their own counterpart to Dave Spart.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 18,663
    Estobar said:

    The red tops are in a belligerent anti-Corbyn mood this morning. I'm not sure how long he will survive the onslaught but the media needs a counter-attack. For too long British politics has been driven by sucking-up to Murdoch.

    What's certain though is that the tories badly miscalculated with their national security message and it has backfired on them, which serves them right for being so negative. One of Cameron's great weaknesses is a tendency to come over as bullying.

    This paranoia about Murdoch does you no credit.

    It's Vere's boy you need to keep an eye on...
  • Estobar said:

    Estobar said:

    Estobar said:

    The red tops are in a belligerent anti-Corbyn mood this morning. I'm not sure how long he will survive the onslaught but the media needs a counter-attack. For too long British politics has been driven by sucking-up to Murdoch.

    What's certain though is that the tories badly miscalculated with their national security message and it has backfired on them, which serves them right for being so negative. One of Cameron's great weaknesses is a tendency to come over as bullying.

    Instead, they're regressing to their comfort ground, which in reality is a padded room in a particularly secure mental unit.
    There we go again. The tory response of personal attack and particularly to say that those with whom they disagree should be locked up in a mental hospital.

    It's chilling.
    BTW, it's be good if you learnt to add (snip) to posts when you've snipped them, just to avoid misrepresenting people.
    I quoted you verbatim: 'Instead, they're regressing to their comfort ground, which in reality is a padded room in a particularly secure mental unit.'

    If you had your time again I think you would have phrased that more felicitously and appropriately. There's no need to descend to the red-top standards on here with insinuations of lunacy against those with whom one disagrees.

    Bedlam is a literal and metaphorical place where we scapegoat those with whom we disagree (so, Jacque Derrida). It's a chilling concept.
    No, you snipped off stuff before that.

    And I would not rephrase, as it is clearly appropriate. Many Labour supporters are reverting to a position that is frankly mad, mainly because it has been tried and had not worked (e.g. your constant droning on about Murdoch).

    And for another thing, there is a difference between saying someone's comfort zone is in a padded room in a mental hospital, and saying that they should be locked up in a mental institution. A distinction you do not seem able to grasp.

    Just look at your apparent fixation on Murdoch. Its chilling how someone so routinely fails to learn the lessons of the immediate past.

    Chilling.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 26,638
    edited September 2015
    Estobar said:

    Scott_P said:

    Estobar said:

    We're debating things on here and in the country that have been largely untouched for twenty years.


    Are terrorists the good guys who should be honoured?

    Estobar said:

    It's a sea change, a shift in zeitgeist, that is ultimately very, very, good for the future.

    If,

    It's a tragedy.
    forty-one years ago on the morning of 12th October 1984
    Corbynomics.......'People's Quantitative Easing' can apply to time too - who knew?

  • We also might get the totally new phenomenon of Lying Tories,, who tell opinion pollsters that they are going to vote Labour, just to keep Corbyn in the job.

    Some of whom may have helped put him there in the first place....

    And welcome to PB.com - lurker, or have you regenerated like the Doctor?
    I occasionally posted some years ago, and have always lurked, but yes, this is my first dip back in the water.
    Welcome back.
  • EstobarEstobar Posts: 558
    I'll stick my neck out here then run for cover ...

    Yes I do think it's time to move on from Remembrance Day. I think we should say 'thank you, thank you for sacrificing, thank you for what you did in the cause you were told, and may have believed, was right. We thank you.'

    But now it's time to move on. By the way, I know many many people, including Conservative voters, who privately agree with me on this.
  • Estobar and ilk are becoming increasingly more desperate for Corbyn to change things..forlorn hope..He is just another commie plonker with the same policy vacuum that his predecessor had.And this desperation is at screech level on day two of the new school term.
  • EstobarEstobar Posts: 558
    And my next one before I, literally, run: the future of humanity does not lie in nationhood ...
  • Estobar said:

    And my next one before I, literally, run: the future of humanity does not lie in nationhood ...

    The future of humanity does not lie in cheesy soundbites ...
  • Estobar said:

    I'll stick my neck out here then run for cover ...

    Yes I do think it's time to move on from Remembrance Day. I think we should say 'thank you, thank you for sacrificing, thank you for what you did in the cause you were told, and may have believed, was right. We thank you.'

    But now it's time to move on. By the way, I know many many people, including Conservative voters, who privately agree with me on this.

    I think you're missing the point about Remembrance Day.

    Not only is it to thank those who have passed before, but also to remind all of us of the cost of war, now and in the future....
  • Forget the idea that there will be "Shy Labour" voters and that Corbyn will in some way connect with the country. Labour is toast.

    The success of Blair was to keep all the diverse parts of Labour together: socially conservative WWC, metropolitan elites and ethnic minorities. That coalition is now falling apart - the WWC now has an alternative in UKIP and (less commented on) parts of the ethnic minority base are less committed to Labour than before (as an example, the fact that both Ealing Central and Brentford were won by Labour with very slender majorities).

    Corbyn will only accelerate this: yes, he makes the metro elite part of the coalition feel warm and fuzzy but his past antics will finally break the bonds with the WWC (and, no, they do not vote unblinkingly for Labour - some do, but many because they did not have an alternative they would consider i.e. UKIP) and, probably, certain sections of the ethnic minority vote.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 18,490
    Estobar said:

    Scott_P said:

    Estobar said:

    We're debating things on here and in the country that have been largely untouched for twenty years.


    Are terrorists the good guys who should be honoured?

    Estobar said:

    It's a sea change, a shift in zeitgeist, that is ultimately very, very, good for the future.

    It's a tragedy.
    If, forty-one years ago on the morning of 12th October 1984 you had suggested entering into a power sharing dialogue with the political wing of a terrorist group you would have been described by some as a lunatic and a threat to national security. You'd have been hounded by the red-tops, dismissed to the margins, heaped with insults.

    The discourses you find so astonishing today will be the bread and butter of tomorrow.
    One of the many things Corbynites don't seem to get is that there is no equivalence between what Governments have to do in the national interest and what irrelevant backbench MPs get up to. When Corbyn shared a platform with supporters of the IRA and invited them to the Commons in the weeks after Brighton he was not acting in the national interest, he was showing contempt for his country and lending his support to a bunch of murderous thugs.

    The fact that the government of that day and future days had to deal with those murderous thugs does not vindicate or excuse what he did. It was and remains shameful.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 16,984
    Estobar said:

    I'll stick my neck out here then run for cover ...

    Yes I do think it's time to move on from Remembrance Day. I think we should say 'thank you, thank you for sacrificing, thank you for what you did in the cause you were told, and may have believed, was right. We thank you.'

    But now it's time to move on. By the way, I know many many people, including Conservative voters, who privately agree with me on this.

    Perhaps we could have "apology day" where we say sorry for killing everyone in our evil wars. Like Bannockburb, Crecy and Port Stanley ?
  • Estobar said:

    For me, and I think a lot of people on here miss this, the importance of Corbyn is not whether he can win a General Election. I frankly don't really care.

    Oh, we've noticed. And it's so very telling.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Estobar said:

    Estobar said:

    Estobar said:

    The red tops are in a belligerent anti-Corbyn mood this morning. I'm not sure how long he will survive the onslaught but the media needs a counter-attack. For too long British politics has been driven by sucking-up to Murdoch.

    What's certain though is that the tories badly miscalculated with their national security message and it has backfired on them, which serves them right for being so negative. One of Cameron's great weaknesses is a tendency to come over as bullying.

    Instead, they're regressing to their comfort ground, which in reality is a padded room in a particularly secure mental unit.
    There we go again. The tory response of personal attack and particularly to say that those with whom they disagree should be locked up in a mental hospital.

    It's chilling.
    BTW, it's be good if you learnt to add (snip) to posts when you've snipped them, just to avoid misrepresenting people.
    I quoted you verbatim: 'Instead, they're regressing to their comfort ground, which in reality is a padded room in a particularly secure mental unit.'

    If you had your time again I think you would have phrased that more felicitously and appropriately. There's no need to descend to the red-top standards on here with insinuations of lunacy against those with whom one disagrees.

    Bedlam is a literal and metaphorical place where we scapegoat those with whom we disagree (so, Jacque Derrida). It's a chilling concept.
    No, you snipped off stuff before that.

    And I would not rephrase, as it is clearly appropriate. Many Labour supporters are reverting to a position that is frankly mad, mainly because it has been tried and had not worked (e.g. your constant droning on about Murdoch).

    And for another thing, there is a difference between saying someone's comfort zone is in a padded room in a mental hospital, and saying that they should be locked up in a mental institution. A distinction you do not seem able to grasp.

    Just look at your apparent fixation on Murdoch. Its chilling how someone so routinely fails to learn the lessons of the immediate past.

    Chilling.
    Under mental health legislation, detention for treatment is only possible if the patient is an immediate risk to others or to themselves. The Labour party is probably not the first (as no risk of getting elected) but is certainly self-harming to a frightening degree, with a total absence of insight.

    So I am with JJ. The analogy is apt, though padded cells have long since been replaced by the chemical cosh.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,553
    edited September 2015
    As every marketing person knows the problem with knocking copy is that it's a game for any number of players

    Cameron's govenment bombed Libya and we now have the greatest refugee crisis since the war......

    Trident can never be used whereas the 20 NHS hospitals you could build with the money could make the UK one of the safest cancer centres in the world saving tens of thousands of lives each year....

    One of the most intractable conflicts of the last century was brought about by bringing the IRA to the table......

    Saudi Arabia have performed more public beheadings in front of school children than were killed in the 9/11 bombings. Cameron described King Saud as our very dear friend and ally. Is it appropriate to sell arms to a regime which flogs women for driving a car and not covering their head?

  • EstobarEstobar Posts: 558
    edited September 2015



    Estobar said:

    And my next one before I, literally, run: the future of humanity does not lie in nationhood ...

    The future of humanity does not lie in cheesy soundbites ...
    Well I can flesh it out for you, if you'd rather then? The concept of 'Britain' means less to me than the concept of shared humanity. I do love London, very much, because it encapsulates that cosmopolitan life that I, and many of my friends, encounter whenever I travel the world, which is frequently. I find more in common with other human beings from a range of diverse cultures and 'countries' than I do in the artificial concept of a national identity. In the case of the UK we are, and have always been, a hotch potch of racial and ethnic identities. 'Britishness' and 'nationhood' are not identity markers that give me particular pride any more. I look for, and find, shared humanity.

    If 'we' have ideals that matter to me they are the belief in tolerance and democracy, ideals that I find under threat not from Corbyn but from Cameron. Henry G Manson put it all very well yesterday: a crushing of the only thing left that makes Britain worth its Britishness.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 18,663

    We also might get the totally new phenomenon of Lying Tories,, who tell opinion pollsters that they are going to vote Labour, just to keep Corbyn in the job.

    Some of whom may have helped put him there in the first place....

    And welcome to PB.com - lurker, or have you regenerated like the Doctor?
    I occasionally posted some years ago, and have always lurked, but yes, this is my first dip back in the water.
    welcome then
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 34,492
    Estobar said:

    I'll stick my neck out here then run for cover ...

    Ah, a prectical demonstration of the Corbyn doctrine of National Defence.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 18,663
    Estobar said:

    I'll stick my neck out here then run for cover ...

    Yes I do think it's time to move on from Remembrance Day. I think we should say 'thank you, thank you for sacrificing, thank you for what you did in the cause you were told, and may have believed, was right. We thank you.'

    But now it's time to move on. By the way, I know many many people, including Conservative voters, who privately agree with me on this.

    Remembering the sacrifice increases the probability that we will not engage in World War again in future.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited September 2015
    Escobar and ilk may not have noticed but some of the names on the memorial monuments are fairly recent additions..and we still have very brave service people out there today risking their lives in order to make this country a little more secure ..and help save the lives of those desperate enough to to run away from Corbyns "friends" ..but lets just forget em ..I know which of the two groups I would rather spend time with.
  • Roger said:

    Cameron's govenment bombed Libya and we now have the greatest refugee crisis since the war......

    But the Massacre of Benghazi would have been absolutely fine?

    As for the Refugee Crisis, Cameron has spent twice as much on refugee camps where they are needed - on Syria's borders, than the next biggest EU contributor - Germany - and more than the rest of EU governments combined.

    Meanwhile 'Friend of the People Smugglers - Come one Come all' Merkel has had to close her border with Austria and suspended the Schengen agreement......
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,400

    Estobar said:

    Estobar said:

    The red tops are in a belligerent anti-Corbyn mood this morning. I'm not sure how long he will survive the onslaught but the media needs a counter-attack. For too long British politics has been driven by sucking-up to Murdoch.

    What's certain though is that the tories badly miscalculated with their national security message and it has backfired on them, which serves them right for being so negative. One of Cameron's great weaknesses is a tendency to come over as bullying.

    Instead, they're regressing to their comfort ground, which in reality is a padded room in a particularly secure mental unit.
    There we go again. The tory response of personal attack and particularly to say that those with whom they disagree should be locked up in a mental hospital.

    It's chilling.
    Only if you're being particularly silly, or do not understand English.

    BTW, it's be good if you learnt to add (snip) to posts when you've snipped them, just to avoid misrepresenting people.

    Oh, and I'm not a Tory (tm).

    Aside from that, good post. ;)
    LOL, methinks you doth protest too much
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 34,492
    @DPJHodges: So Chuka Umunna was right. Corbyn did tell him he saw circumstances where he could campaign for EU withdrawal.

    A more perfect description of Corbyn's agenda may be hard to find...

    @susie_dent: To be betwattled (be-twat-tled) is to be perplexed, confused, or surprised by something, or in a state of general befuddlement. Morning all.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,400
    TGOHF said:

    Estobar said:

    I'll stick my neck out here then run for cover ...

    Yes I do think it's time to move on from Remembrance Day. I think we should say 'thank you, thank you for sacrificing, thank you for what you did in the cause you were told, and may have believed, was right. We thank you.'

    But now it's time to move on. By the way, I know many many people, including Conservative voters, who privately agree with me on this.

    Perhaps we could have "apology day" where we say sorry for killing everyone in our evil wars. Like Bannockburb, Crecy and Port Stanley ?
    I see you omit most of the real ones
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Charles said:

    Estobar said:

    I'll stick my neck out here then run for cover ...

    Yes I do think it's time to move on from Remembrance Day. I think we should say 'thank you, thank you for sacrificing, thank you for what you did in the cause you were told, and may have believed, was right. We thank you.'

    But now it's time to move on. By the way, I know many many people, including Conservative voters, who privately agree with me on this.

    Remembering the sacrifice increases the probability that we will not engage in World War again in future.
    Does it? Is there any evidence for this?

    I wear a red poppy, and remembrance for me has a lot to do with respect, but do nations with remembrance celebrations behave less aggressively or more aggressively? IS is obsessed with "martyrs" as is Hamas and any number of other beligerent groups.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 2,611



    Estobar said:

    And my next one before I, literally, run: the future of humanity does not lie in nationhood ...

    The future of humanity does not lie in cheesy soundbites ...
    Now is not the time for sound bites, but I feel the hand of history on my shoulder
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,400
    Estobar said:



    Estobar said:

    And my next one before I, literally, run: the future of humanity does not lie in nationhood ...

    The future of humanity does not lie in cheesy soundbites ...
    Well I can flesh it out for you, if you'd rather then? The concept of 'Britain' means less to me than the concept of shared humanity. I do love London, very much, because it encapsulates that cosmopolitan life that I, and many of my friends, encounter whenever I travel the world, which is frequently. I find more in common with other human beings from a range of diverse cultures and 'countries' than I do in the artificial concept of a national identity. In the case of the UK we are, and have always been, a hotch potch of racial and ethnic identities. 'Britishness' and 'nationhood' are not identity markers that give me particular pride any more. I look for, and find, shared humanity.

    If 'we' have ideals that matter to me they are the belief in tolerance and democracy, ideals that I find under threat not from Corbyn but from Cameron. Henry G Manson put it all very well yesterday: a crushing of the only thing left that makes Britain worth its Britishness.
    Estobar, you have many frothers attacking you so must be hitting the mark.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 28,253

    Estobar said:

    I'll stick my neck out here then run for cover ...

    Yes I do think it's time to move on from Remembrance Day. I think we should say 'thank you, thank you for sacrificing, thank you for what you did in the cause you were told, and may have believed, was right. We thank you.'

    But now it's time to move on. By the way, I know many many people, including Conservative voters, who privately agree with me on this.

    I think you're missing the point about Remembrance Day.

    Not only is it to thank those who have passed before, but also to remind all of us of the cost of war, now and in the future....
    Indeed - a bit bizarre to miss one of the key parts of recalling history so we can, hopefully, learn from it. Annual remembrance keeps it fresh for each generation and is important precisely because those who personally remember the larger wars are fewer and fewer.

    Re shy labour, I can see it happening given the attacks they will get. Core Corbynistas see being so as a badge of pride, but there are policies of his which people like but they are embarrassed but other bits or the Corbynistas themselves. Few people here in the Tory shires would openly admit to supporting labour under Corbyn I suspect.
  • Freggles said:



    Estobar said:

    And my next one before I, literally, run: the future of humanity does not lie in nationhood ...

    The future of humanity does not lie in cheesy soundbites ...
    Now is not the time for sound bites, but I feel the hand of history on my shoulder
    I added that, but deleted it. ;)
  • Charles said:

    Estobar said:

    I'll stick my neck out here then run for cover ...

    Yes I do think it's time to move on from Remembrance Day. I think we should say 'thank you, thank you for sacrificing, thank you for what you did in the cause you were told, and may have believed, was right. We thank you.'

    But now it's time to move on. By the way, I know many many people, including Conservative voters, who privately agree with me on this.

    Remembering the sacrifice increases the probability that we will not engage in World War again in future.
    fetishizing the armed forces, though, does the opposite. I suspect we have not quite reached that yet in the UK, though in the US it is quite evident, and the trend in the UK is not towards remembrance but towards glorification, and compulsory glorification at that (witness the public shaming of anyone not wearing a poppy)
  • sCOTT p..The Corbyn and leftie defense strategy is for someone else to stick their necks out whilst the yrun for cover
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 2,611
    felix said:

    Estobar said:

    Estobar said:

    Estobar said:

    The red tops are in a belligerent anti-Corbyn mood this morning. I'm not sure how long he will survive the onslaught but the media needs a counter-attack. For too long British politics has been driven by sucking-up to Murdoch.

    What's certain though is that the tories badly miscalculated with their national security message and it has backfired on them, which serves them right for being so negative. One of Cameron's great weaknesses is a tendency to come over as bullying.

    Instead, they're regressing to their comfort ground, which in reality is a padded room in a particularly secure mental unit.
    There we go again. The tory response of personal attack and particularly to say that those with whom they disagree should be locked up in a mental hospital.

    It's chilling.
    BTW, it's be good if you learnt to add (snip) to posts when you've snipped them, just to avoid misrepresenting people.
    I quoted you verbatim: 'Instead, they're regressing to their comfort ground, which in reality is a padded room in a particularly secure mental unit.'

    If you had your time again I think you would have phrased that more felicitously and appropriately. There's no need to descend to the red-top standards on here with insinuations of lunacy against those with whom one disagrees.

    Bedlam is a literal and metaphorical place where we scapegoat those with whom we disagree (so, Jacque Derrida). It's a chilling concept.
    You got fixated on mental health yesterday - time to change the record methinks?
    Yeah, maybe we should discuss something rarely touched upon like the rubbishness of Corbyn or how lefties are morally deficient
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 6,246
    Good morning all. My family has not been lucky when serving its country. All four of my great-grandfathers were killed in the Great War, and both my grandfathers in WW2.

    My generation is the first that has not had to fight to defend our national interest. I'll never forget the sacrifices my ancestors made, and I am incredibly proud to be British. I'll probably never understand people like Estobar.
  • Apperently no Scottish Soldiers were ever involved in any wars.. ever..
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 26,638
    edited September 2015
    May have passed under the radar yesterday what with the Corbocalypse unfolding before our eyes, but has 'Teflon Nicola's impermability to political gravity started to wear thinner (albeit from a still stratospherically high base)?

    Doing well - net - vs May 1

    Cameron: -33 (+1)
    Sturgeon: +39* (-17)

    * A positively North Korean 99 among SNP supporters

    http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/j7hwibrj70/Times_ScotlandResults_150910_PartyQuestions_W3.pdf
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 28,253
    I find it hard to understand the logic behind 'I am against war' (almost all of us are, thankfully) to 'so we should not annually and publicly acknowledge the costs of war'
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 28,253
    edited September 2015

    May have passed under the radar yesterday what with the Corbocalypse unfolding before our eyes, but has 'Teflon Nicola's impermability to political gravity started to wear thinner (albeit from a still stratospherically high base)?

    Doing well - net - vs May 1

    Cameron: -33 (+1)
    Sturgeon: +39* (-17)

    * A positively North Korean 99 among SNP supporters

    http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/j7hwibrj70/Times_ScotlandResults_150910_PartyQuestions_W3.pdf

    They best hunt down that 1% lack of approval. Get it together Nicola.

    In all seriousness, there's no danger of her becoming unpopular any time soon, just going from deity to demigod.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,400

    Apperently no Scottish Soldiers were ever involved in any wars.. ever..

    Cuckoo Cuckoo, take your meds for God's sake you halfwit.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 18,663

    Charles said:

    Estobar said:

    I'll stick my neck out here then run for cover ...

    Yes I do think it's time to move on from Remembrance Day. I think we should say 'thank you, thank you for sacrificing, thank you for what you did in the cause you were told, and may have believed, was right. We thank you.'

    But now it's time to move on. By the way, I know many many people, including Conservative voters, who privately agree with me on this.

    Remembering the sacrifice increases the probability that we will not engage in World War again in future.
    Does it? Is there any evidence for this?

    I wear a red poppy, and remembrance for me has a lot to do with respect, but do nations with remembrance celebrations behave less aggressively or more aggressively? IS is obsessed with "martyrs" as is Hamas and any number of other beligerent groups.
    I was thinking Remebrance as practiced in the UK, or Memorial Day in the States, not aggressive veneration of murderers.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    malcolmg said:

    Apperently no Scottish Soldiers were ever involved in any wars.. ever..

    Cuckoo Cuckoo, take your meds for God's sake you halfwit.
    This sort of abuse really makes this site an unpleasant place to read sometimes. Might somebmoedration be in order?
  • david_kendrick1david_kendrick1 Posts: 320
    edited September 2015
    There is close to zero chance of Corbyn leading his party into the next GE.

    He will perform poorly as Labour leader, but and much more importantly, he will not enjoy the job.

    The value bet at the moment is the double: Labour to win the next GE, Corbyn not to be leader.
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