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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » How Mr Corbyn could end Cameron’s Premiership

SystemSystem Posts: 3,967
edited September 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » How Mr Corbyn could end Cameron’s Premiership

One of the underlying assumptions in the EU referendum was Labour and the Trade Union movement would be campaigning vigorously for the United Kingdom to remain a member however with the election of Jeremy Corbyn as Labour Leader that assumption needs to be revised. This morning’s Guardian reports “The prospects of Labour opposing British membership of the European Union, or adopting a …

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • First
  • The solution is for David Cameron to campaign to Leave.

    We'd leave. And he could then retire safe in the knowledge he'd go down as the greatest Conservative PM of all time.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,553
    Isn't the story of the day whether corbyn's lips were seen to move during the national anthem?
  • Best outcome I think is one that closes the interminable debate on this for the foreseeable future so either a Leave vote (by any margin) or a clear and unambiguous Remain vote (like in 75).

    I wouldn't at this stage rule out either outcome. Nor would I assume that the TUC and Corbyn will be decisive any more than in 75 either. This debate will be decided based on the same way has long seemed likely - Remain campaigning on "jobs depend upon the EU" and Leave campaigning on Immigration and Sovereignty.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 18,490
    Is Kate Green in the shadow cabinet? She is the shadow minister for women and equalities. That is part of the role now held by Nicky Morgan who is of course Secretary of State for Education and faces the ever so daunting Lucy Powell. There is an undersecretary for these things but that is obviously not a cabinet post.

    If Corbyn has managed to get a majority of women in his shadow cabinet by having 2 members facing one cabinet minister is that not just a little contrived?

    I did not hear the interview but it does not seem at all unlikely that we will have a fairly consistent picture of shadow ministers contradicting Corbyn until Labour policy is officially changed. As most of the PLP disagree with Corbyn about most things this may take a while and risk further destabilising the somewhat unstable ship.
  • How can people possibly have a position of "remain" in all circumstances, regardless of the deal on the table?

    It's like going to a call dealership and having an opening line to the salesman of "I'm going to buy this car regardless of the deal we come to" and then attempting to haggle about the price.

    This, of course, assumes that Cameron will actually have substantive negotiations, which is far from a given, but failure to do so would drive many more into the "leave" camp.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,400
    Question of the day is when will the frothers stop wetting their pants about JC. Seems many on here lead sad lonely lives when they get so excited about so little, pretty amazing.
  • Roger said:

    Isn't the story of the day whether corbyn's lips were seen to move during the national anthem?

    1) I've tried my best, but I can't get outraged by a lifelong Republican not singing God Save The Queen

    2) PB is at its best when it is slight contrarian

    3) It's bloody tedious writing Corbyn is crap threads.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,292

    Best outcome I think is one that closes the interminable debate on this for the foreseeable future so either a Leave vote (by any margin) or a clear and unambiguous Remain vote (like in 75).

    I wouldn't at this stage rule out either outcome. Nor would I assume that the TUC and Corbyn will be decisive any more than in 75 either. This debate will be decided based on the same way has long seemed likely - Remain campaigning on "jobs depend upon the EU" and Leave campaigning on Immigration and Sovereignty.

    Seems a bit unfair to the remain side that the Leave side only need 50%+1 to win, yet Remain need 75%.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 28,253
    I like the idea labour could become just as divided on Europe as their opponents (how their opponents used to be at any rate), as the whole point of corbyn was surely to stop being like the Tories.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 34,492
    @TelePolitics: Jeremy Corbyn's shadow cabinet fury over 'disloyal' national anthem snub - live http://t.co/aB4HIJA3Gb
  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,292
    malcolmg said:

    Question of the day is when will the frothers stop wetting their pants about JC. Seems many on here lead sad lonely lives when they get so excited about so little, pretty amazing.

    Thanks Malcolm :( now I feel right down in the dumps.
  • Roger said:

    Isn't the story of the day whether corbyn's lips were seen to move during the national anthem?

    No that was yesterday's!

    Today's we have yet to see!

    PMQs at mid-day might provide material, but we're off to a good start with Corbyn being both contradicted and criticised by a Shadow Cabinet Minister on R4......"Things can only get better....."
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 34,492
    Cameron might ask for a show of hands from Labour benches on whether they think JC should have sung the National anthem
  • RobD said:

    Best outcome I think is one that closes the interminable debate on this for the foreseeable future so either a Leave vote (by any margin) or a clear and unambiguous Remain vote (like in 75).

    I wouldn't at this stage rule out either outcome. Nor would I assume that the TUC and Corbyn will be decisive any more than in 75 either. This debate will be decided based on the same way has long seemed likely - Remain campaigning on "jobs depend upon the EU" and Leave campaigning on Immigration and Sovereignty.

    Seems a bit unfair to the remain side that the Leave side only need 50%+1 to win, yet Remain need 75%.
    Leaver are like Jeremy Corbyn's friends/John McDonnell's heroes the IRA.

    Leave only has to be lucky once,

    Remain has to be lucky all the time.
  • PaulyPauly Posts: 853
    Cameron is not going to do the show of hands gag, he's not a bloody school teacher.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,364
    Roger said:

    Isn't the story of the day whether corbyn's lips were seen to move during the national anthem?

    NO Roger that was yesterday, today's story is that when your own team disagree with you and effectively tell the media to ignore what the LOTO says as its not policy, you know that Corbyn and Labour are well and truly fecked. This is going to be the most disunited opposition EVER.. Pass the popcorn.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 34,492
    RobD said:

    Thanks Malcolm :( now I feel right down in the dumps.

    We could talk about other stuff...

    @BBCScotlandNews: Culture Secretary Fiona Hyslop to appear before Holyrood committee over T in the Park payment http://t.co/6M1Rzden6p http://t.co/iFHgnoljdk
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 34,492
    Or
    The damage done to Scotland by the independence referendum battle has been revealed in a poll for The Times which shows that almost a quarter of Scots have been insulted or abused for the way they voted. Those who backed the Union last year are more likely to have been victims, according to the YouGov research.

    The poll also shows that slightly more Scots think that the plebiscite left the country more divided than united.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/scotland/article4558254.ece
  • I'm stunned by this polling finding about the aftermath of the Indyref.

    YouGov/Times poll

    Have you personally been insulted or abused over your referendum vote.

    Yes 24%

    No 74%.

    There was a clear difference in the experiences of respondents. Among “yes” supporters, 16 per cent had been abused and 82 per cent had not; on the “no” side, 32 per cent had been targeted, while 68 per cent had not.
  • When did singing the National Anthem become a thing? Am I misremembering my youth or did we not stand silently?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 10,002
    I agree with Simon Jenkins on this - a very rare thing. I expect we'll end up voting for In, and personally I probably will anyway but that's no reason to sell our collective support for free. The TUC line that if Cameron negotiates away a lot of what we like about the EU, he can't count on our support makes sense to me. He wants us to back a cross-party line, fine, but then the negotiation package needs to be cross-party too.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 18,490
    If Cameron were successful in reinstating our opt out of the social chapter then this would simply mean that these were issues for the UK to decide on rather than the EU. So if Labour were elected (I think I see a flaw in the argument here, ed) they could give even more rights than the EU which in any event is only supposed to impose minimum standards. It would then, in other words, be a matter of democratic choice for the British people.

    It seems a pretty feeble thing on which the TUC or even Corbyn to decide they would campaign for out on. The next Labour government (idem. ed) could simply opt back in again just as the last one did.

    Or are the TUC really saying that they might have to wait a while for a Labour government?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 10,190
    malcolmg said:

    Question of the day is when will the frothers stop wetting their pants about JC. Seems many on here lead sad lonely lives when they get so excited about so little, pretty amazing.

    Agree
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,143
    malcolmg said:

    Question of the day is when will the frothers stop wetting their pants about JC. Seems many on here lead sad lonely lives when they get so excited about so little, pretty amazing.

    Hurrah, turps nudgers are go!
  • alex.alex. Posts: 2,689
    Wow, just heard what Kate Green said on Radio 4. In any normal circumstance she would be forced to resign, wouldn't she?
  • Corbyn should follow Harold Wilson and allow a free vote, both to hold the party together and to encourage government rifts as Cameron will be whipping his more Eurosceptic party.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,961
    edited September 2015
    Scott_P said:

    @TelePolitics: Jeremy Corbyn's shadow cabinet fury over 'disloyal' national anthem snub - live http://t.co/aB4HIJA3Gb

    Every piece about him certainly on the radio is full of criticism. From his own party. I don't think I've heard a single Cons criticising him.

    This morning it was Adm Lord West berating Jezza.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 2,689

    Roger said:

    Isn't the story of the day whether corbyn's lips were seen to move during the national anthem?

    1) I've tried my best, but I can't get outraged by a lifelong Republican not singing God Save The Queen

    2) PB is at its best when it is slight contrarian

    3) It's bloody tedious writing Corbyn is crap threads.
    Lol - you haven't written any yet :)
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 34,492

    I'm stunned by this polling finding about the aftermath of the Indyref.

    YouGov/Times poll

    Have you personally been insulted or abused over your referendum vote.

    Yes 24%

    No 74%.

    There was a clear difference in the experiences of respondents. Among “yes” supporters, 16 per cent had been abused and 82 per cent had not; on the “no” side, 32 per cent had been targeted, while 68 per cent had not.

    What's most entertaining about that poll finding is when you realise who caused it...
    Then, in the closing days, the tone and texture changed.

    One man was responsible for this, taking a Yes campaign that had practically glowed with positivity and replacing it with an angry, finger-pointing demonstration of Nationalist grievance. My view is that this man halted the Yes campaign’s momentum and handed victory to the No camp. The campaign for independence was lost because of the wildly off-message behaviour, in those final days, of Alex Salmond.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/article4553646.ece
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 42,355
    If Jezza goes on welfare, Dave will have those Kate quotes to hand !

    What a wally :p

    Dave should find pmqs v easy...
  • RobD said:

    Best outcome I think is one that closes the interminable debate on this for the foreseeable future so either a Leave vote (by any margin) or a clear and unambiguous Remain vote (like in 75).

    I wouldn't at this stage rule out either outcome. Nor would I assume that the TUC and Corbyn will be decisive any more than in 75 either. This debate will be decided based on the same way has long seemed likely - Remain campaigning on "jobs depend upon the EU" and Leave campaigning on Immigration and Sovereignty.

    Seems a bit unfair to the remain side that the Leave side only need 50%+1 to win, yet Remain need 75%.
    Leaver are like Jeremy Corbyn's friends/John McDonnell's heroes the IRA.

    Leave only has to be lucky once,

    Remain has to be lucky all the time.
    Steady on! Not very nice to us Leavers.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,961

    I agree with Simon Jenkins on this - a very rare thing. I expect we'll end up voting for In, and personally I probably will anyway but that's no reason to sell our collective support for free. The TUC line that if Cameron negotiates away a lot of what we like about the EU, he can't count on our support makes sense to me. He wants us to back a cross-party line, fine, but then the negotiation package needs to be cross-party too.

    Nick you're rapidly putting yourself in contention for the "Andy Burnham Lady's Not for Turning" Award 2015.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 2,689
    DavidL said:

    If Cameron were successful in reinstating our opt out of the social chapter then this would simply mean that these were issues for the UK to decide on rather than the EU. So if Labour were elected (I think I see a flaw in the argument here, ed) they could give even more rights than the EU which in any event is only supposed to impose minimum standards. It would then, in other words, be a matter of democratic choice for the British people.

    It seems a pretty feeble thing on which the TUC or even Corbyn to decide they would campaign for out on. The next Labour government (idem. ed) could simply opt back in again just as the last one did.

    Or are the TUC really saying that they might have to wait a while for a Labour government?

    Well of course they are. That's not news is it?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,292
    Perhaps the shadow cabinet are playing a blinder! Reverse expectations management. You make everone think Cam is going to have it easy, then BOOM! he gets Corbyned at the despatch box.
  • RobD said:

    Best outcome I think is one that closes the interminable debate on this for the foreseeable future so either a Leave vote (by any margin) or a clear and unambiguous Remain vote (like in 75).

    I wouldn't at this stage rule out either outcome. Nor would I assume that the TUC and Corbyn will be decisive any more than in 75 either. This debate will be decided based on the same way has long seemed likely - Remain campaigning on "jobs depend upon the EU" and Leave campaigning on Immigration and Sovereignty.

    Seems a bit unfair to the remain side that the Leave side only need 50%+1 to win, yet Remain need 75%.
    Leaver are like Jeremy Corbyn's friends/John McDonnell's heroes the IRA.

    Leave only has to be lucky once,

    Remain has to be lucky all the time.
    Welcome to Scotland
  • alex. said:

    Wow, just heard what Kate Green said on Radio 4. In any normal circumstance she would be forced to resign, wouldn't she?

    Are these normal circumstances? Has the Shadow Cabinet met often enough to have collective responsibility about any decisions, let alone the national anthem?
  • RobD said:

    Best outcome I think is one that closes the interminable debate on this for the foreseeable future so either a Leave vote (by any margin) or a clear and unambiguous Remain vote (like in 75).

    I wouldn't at this stage rule out either outcome. Nor would I assume that the TUC and Corbyn will be decisive any more than in 75 either. This debate will be decided based on the same way has long seemed likely - Remain campaigning on "jobs depend upon the EU" and Leave campaigning on Immigration and Sovereignty.

    Seems a bit unfair to the remain side that the Leave side only need 50%+1 to win, yet Remain need 75%.
    Leaver are like Jeremy Corbyn's friends/John McDonnell's heroes the IRA.

    Leave only has to be lucky once,

    Remain has to be lucky all the time.
    Steady on! Not very nice to us Leavers.
    I made the same analogy about the supporters of Scottish Independence.

    So I'm really saying you're like the Nats :lol:

    Oh I'm not helping am I?
  • alex.alex. Posts: 2,689

    alex. said:

    Wow, just heard what Kate Green said on Radio 4. In any normal circumstance she would be forced to resign, wouldn't she?

    Are these normal circumstances? Has the Shadow Cabinet met often enough to have collective responsibility about any decisions, let alone the national anthem?
    I usually assume a shadow cabinet has collective responsibility for not publicly and openly criticising the Leader.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 10,002
    Latest German poll shows a small weakening of Merkel's support and a small rise in the AfD - worth watching.
    http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/

    Meanwhile, the Canada there is a clear distinction between phone polls, which show a Conservative recovery, and internet polls, which don't. Margins small either way, but may be instructive to see what turns out to be right.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_in_the_Canadian_federal_election,_2015
  • Scott_P said:

    I'm stunned by this polling finding about the aftermath of the Indyref.

    YouGov/Times poll

    Have you personally been insulted or abused over your referendum vote.

    Yes 24%

    No 74%.

    There was a clear difference in the experiences of respondents. Among “yes” supporters, 16 per cent had been abused and 82 per cent had not; on the “no” side, 32 per cent had been targeted, while 68 per cent had not.

    What's most entertaining about that poll finding is when you realise who caused it...
    Then, in the closing days, the tone and texture changed.

    One man was responsible for this, taking a Yes campaign that had practically glowed with positivity and replacing it with an angry, finger-pointing demonstration of Nationalist grievance. My view is that this man halted the Yes campaign’s momentum and handed victory to the No camp. The campaign for independence was lost because of the wildly off-message behaviour, in those final days, of Alex Salmond.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/article4553646.ece

    On the other side, the entirely negative Better Together campaign which was barely ticking over was rejuvenated by the positive intervention of Gordon Brown. He saved the pound; he saved the world; he saved the union.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,292

    Scott_P said:

    I'm stunned by this polling finding about the aftermath of the Indyref.

    YouGov/Times poll

    Have you personally been insulted or abused over your referendum vote.

    Yes 24%

    No 74%.

    There was a clear difference in the experiences of respondents. Among “yes” supporters, 16 per cent had been abused and 82 per cent had not; on the “no” side, 32 per cent had been targeted, while 68 per cent had not.

    What's most entertaining about that poll finding is when you realise who caused it...
    Then, in the closing days, the tone and texture changed.

    One man was responsible for this, taking a Yes campaign that had practically glowed with positivity and replacing it with an angry, finger-pointing demonstration of Nationalist grievance. My view is that this man halted the Yes campaign’s momentum and handed victory to the No camp. The campaign for independence was lost because of the wildly off-message behaviour, in those final days, of Alex Salmond.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/article4553646.ece
    On the other side, the entirely negative Better Together campaign which was barely ticking over was rejuvenated by the positive intervention of Gordon Brown. He saved the pound; he saved the world; he saved the union.

    Didn't do so well for the Labour Party!
  • PaulyPauly Posts: 853
    Margaret Beckett on BBC news tv - "For myself, I regret that he didn't [sing anthem]..."
    "...there are a lot of unforeseen things when you become LOTO that you have not thought about or seen in that light..."
  • alex. said:

    alex. said:

    Wow, just heard what Kate Green said on Radio 4. In any normal circumstance she would be forced to resign, wouldn't she?

    Are these normal circumstances? Has the Shadow Cabinet met often enough to have collective responsibility about any decisions, let alone the national anthem?
    I usually assume a shadow cabinet has collective responsibility for not publicly and openly criticising the Leader.
    You young'uns don't remember the 70s and 80s, then. Btw, I've no idea what Kate Green said.
  • RobD said:

    Best outcome I think is one that closes the interminable debate on this for the foreseeable future so either a Leave vote (by any margin) or a clear and unambiguous Remain vote (like in 75).

    I wouldn't at this stage rule out either outcome. Nor would I assume that the TUC and Corbyn will be decisive any more than in 75 either. This debate will be decided based on the same way has long seemed likely - Remain campaigning on "jobs depend upon the EU" and Leave campaigning on Immigration and Sovereignty.

    Seems a bit unfair to the remain side that the Leave side only need 50%+1 to win, yet Remain need 75%.
    Leaver are like Jeremy Corbyn's friends/John McDonnell's heroes the IRA.

    Leave only has to be lucky once,

    Remain has to be lucky all the time.
    Steady on! Not very nice to us Leavers.
    I made the same analogy about the supporters of Scottish Independence.

    So I'm really saying you're like the Nats :lol:

    Oh I'm not helping am I?
    Crawl back under your rock you cretinous turnip!
  • Events in Europe are unraveling so fast its impossible to know where this will end.....Schengen down, can 'Free Movement of Labour' be far behind?

    Great job Angela - you've turned a drama into a crisis:

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9628872/merkels-big-gesture-on-syrian-refugees-will-lead-to-many-more-deaths-at-sea/
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 28,253
    malcolmg said:

    Question of the day is when will the frothers stop wetting their pants about JC. Seems many on here lead sad lonely lives when they get so excited about so little, pretty amazing.

    Unfair - everyone on here gets overly excited, or despondent, about such minor things that have varying levels of political significance. Tories won't stop getting excited about corbyn until he lands his first real blow back, since as we all know, being interested in politics, some people will never grow bored at focusing on something - corbyn and co sometimes still bang on about thatcher for Christs sake -
  • MattWMattW Posts: 1,813
    edited September 2015

    Corbyn should follow Harold Wilson and allow a free vote, both to hold the party together and to encourage government rifts as Cameron will be whipping his more Eurosceptic party.

    What did she say? Missed it.

    R4 now doing the "we are talking about what just happeend but not telling you what it is" thing.

    Kate Green is slightly given to publicity stunts (Top Totty Beer). Was it one of those?
  • alex. said:

    Roger said:

    Isn't the story of the day whether corbyn's lips were seen to move during the national anthem?

    1) I've tried my best, but I can't get outraged by a lifelong Republican not singing God Save The Queen

    2) PB is at its best when it is slight contrarian

    3) It's bloody tedious writing Corbyn is crap threads.
    Lol - you haven't written any yet :)
    Give it time. The piece I'm writing now is

    To understand the disaster that is the Corbyn leadership is to picture the Hindenburg meets Chernobyl meets Three Mile Island meets Tron 2 meets the Battle of Zama.
  • RobD said:

    Best outcome I think is one that closes the interminable debate on this for the foreseeable future so either a Leave vote (by any margin) or a clear and unambiguous Remain vote (like in 75).

    I wouldn't at this stage rule out either outcome. Nor would I assume that the TUC and Corbyn will be decisive any more than in 75 either. This debate will be decided based on the same way has long seemed likely - Remain campaigning on "jobs depend upon the EU" and Leave campaigning on Immigration and Sovereignty.

    Seems a bit unfair to the remain side that the Leave side only need 50%+1 to win, yet Remain need 75%.
    If we leave then we won't talk about re-entry but if Remain gets 51% then it won't shut down those who want to leave. See Scotland's Neverendum.

    Though I assume you were joking as I missed the apostrophe. In '75 remain in the EU got 66% - that is still the approximate figure I expect remain to get and would be conclusive enough. I don't expect a narrow in, I suspect that there is a sizable bulk in the centre who could go either way and will most likely result in a clear Remain but could result in a Leave.
  • PaulyPauly Posts: 853

    Events in Europe are unraveling so fast its impossible to know where this will end.....Schengen down, can 'Free Movement of Labour' be far behind?

    Great job Angela - you've turned a drama into a crisis:

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9628872/merkels-big-gesture-on-syrian-refugees-will-lead-to-many-more-deaths-at-sea/

    Plot Twist: Angela Merkel is a secret lover of nationstates who hates the European Union, fiscal transfers etc. and believes you can't truly have a 'small state' with an extra supranational parliament... at least then her actions would make sense.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 2,689
    edited September 2015

    alex. said:

    alex. said:

    Wow, just heard what Kate Green said on Radio 4. In any normal circumstance she would be forced to resign, wouldn't she?

    Are these normal circumstances? Has the Shadow Cabinet met often enough to have collective responsibility about any decisions, let alone the national anthem?
    I usually assume a shadow cabinet has collective responsibility for not publicly and openly criticising the Leader.
    You young'uns don't remember the 70s and 80s, then. Btw, I've no idea what Kate Green said.
    True, but even then i'd be surprised. I doubt many Shadow Cabinet ministers openly criticised Thatcher without tendering their resignation immediately afterwards. (off the record - an entirely different matter). Green didn't even try to rationalise Corbyn's actions just said it was wrong and offensive to millions.
  • Scott_P said:

    I'm stunned by this polling finding about the aftermath of the Indyref.

    YouGov/Times poll

    Have you personally been insulted or abused over your referendum vote.

    Yes 24%

    No 74%.

    There was a clear difference in the experiences of respondents. Among “yes” supporters, 16 per cent had been abused and 82 per cent had not; on the “no” side, 32 per cent had been targeted, while 68 per cent had not.

    What's most entertaining about that poll finding is when you realise who caused it...
    Then, in the closing days, the tone and texture changed.

    One man was responsible for this, taking a Yes campaign that had practically glowed with positivity and replacing it with an angry, finger-pointing demonstration of Nationalist grievance. My view is that this man halted the Yes campaign’s momentum and handed victory to the No camp. The campaign for independence was lost because of the wildly off-message behaviour, in those final days, of Alex Salmond.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/article4553646.ece
    On the other side, the entirely negative Better Together campaign which was barely ticking over was rejuvenated by the positive intervention of Gordon Brown. He saved the pound; he saved the world; he saved the union.

    Yes, it was Gordon Brown who got the Tories to vote for the Union......how did Labour voters vote?
  • alex. said:

    alex. said:

    Wow, just heard what Kate Green said on Radio 4. In any normal circumstance she would be forced to resign, wouldn't she?

    Are these normal circumstances? Has the Shadow Cabinet met often enough to have collective responsibility about any decisions, let alone the national anthem?
    I usually assume a shadow cabinet has collective responsibility for not publicly and openly criticising the Leader.
    You young'uns don't remember the 70s and 80s, then. Btw, I've no idea what Kate Green said.
    But in those days we had 'big beasts'.....today's lot seem like pygmies.....or as Dr Johnson observed, there is little point in settling the precedence between a louse and a flea.....
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,553
    Malc

    'Question of the day is when will the frothers stop wetting their pants about JC. Seems many on here lead sad lonely lives when they get so excited about so little, pretty amazing'

    Cheer yourself up Malc. Your leaderene has finally made it into Vogue. All those years wearing tartan wedges..........

    http://www.vogue.co.uk/news/2015/09/07/nicola-sturgeon-british-vogue-october-2015
  • alex.alex. Posts: 2,689
    edited September 2015
    It's surprisingly early days, but the Tories might already need to be thinking in terms of launching a "Save Corbyn" campaign. Operation "install Corbyn" is in danger of falling apart far too quickly.
  • alex. said:

    alex. said:

    alex. said:

    Wow, just heard what Kate Green said on Radio 4. In any normal circumstance she would be forced to resign, wouldn't she?

    Are these normal circumstances? Has the Shadow Cabinet met often enough to have collective responsibility about any decisions, let alone the national anthem?
    I usually assume a shadow cabinet has collective responsibility for not publicly and openly criticising the Leader.
    You young'uns don't remember the 70s and 80s, then. Btw, I've no idea what Kate Green said.
    True, but even then i'd be surprised. I doubt many Shadow Cabinet ministers openly criticised Thatcher without tendering their resignation immediately afterwards. (off the record - an entirely different matter)
    It was probably more the other way round. Mrs Thatcher used to present herself as running in permanent opposition to her own Cabinet, and would openly criticise "the wets" (and occasionally "the grandees"). But there was plenty of open, if sometimes coded, criticism back.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 18,663

    alex. said:

    Roger said:

    Isn't the story of the day whether corbyn's lips were seen to move during the national anthem?

    1) I've tried my best, but I can't get outraged by a lifelong Republican not singing God Save The Queen

    2) PB is at its best when it is slight contrarian

    3) It's bloody tedious writing Corbyn is crap threads.
    Lol - you haven't written any yet :)
    Give it time. The piece I'm writing now is

    To understand the disaster that is the Corbyn leadership is to picture the Hindenburg meets Chernobyl meets Three Mile Island meets Tron 2 meets the Battle of Zama.
    Too clunky

    Howabout paralleling Lot/Gommorah with JC/Labour?
  • alex. said:

    Roger said:

    Isn't the story of the day whether corbyn's lips were seen to move during the national anthem?

    1) I've tried my best, but I can't get outraged by a lifelong Republican not singing God Save The Queen

    2) PB is at its best when it is slight contrarian

    3) It's bloody tedious writing Corbyn is crap threads.
    Lol - you haven't written any yet :)
    Give it time. The piece I'm writing now is

    To understand the disaster that is the Corbyn leadership is to picture the Hindenburg meets Chernobyl meets Three Mile Island meets Tron 2 meets the Battle of Zama.
    Meets the Microsoft Zune.
  • Good morning, everyone.

    I think PMQs may be quite odd today.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 62,039
    edited September 2015
    Charles said:

    alex. said:

    Roger said:

    Isn't the story of the day whether corbyn's lips were seen to move during the national anthem?

    1) I've tried my best, but I can't get outraged by a lifelong Republican not singing God Save The Queen

    2) PB is at its best when it is slight contrarian

    3) It's bloody tedious writing Corbyn is crap threads.
    Lol - you haven't written any yet :)
    Give it time. The piece I'm writing now is

    To understand the disaster that is the Corbyn leadership is to picture the Hindenburg meets Chernobyl meets Three Mile Island meets Tron 2 meets the Battle of Zama.
    Too clunky

    Howabout paralleling Lot/Gommorah with JC/Labour?
    I do like Biblical analogies.

    I was proud of the Book of Revelation references I got in yesterday.

    But Tron 2 allows me to reference Olivia Wilde, a future member of my harem
  • PongPong Posts: 4,684
    edited September 2015
    If it's looking like *leave* will win, then reasons will be found to try to delay the referendum.

    Skybet have very attractive odds on the vote being kicked into 2018/19/20 - covering all three years @ ~14.5/1 isn't a bad idea, IMO.

    http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/year-of-referendum-on-eu-membership
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 2,542

    When did singing the National Anthem become a thing? Am I misremembering my youth or did we not stand silently?

    In my youth, it was played in cinemas at the end of the show. Some stood to attention but most,including me, ignored it and walked out. Eventually it was quietly dropped. Progress. I dislike the North Korean tendency and the pressure associated with it.
  • Mr. Barnesian, I think that's a reasonable response to someone going to the cinema.

    It's not for the Leader of the Opposition at a religious service to honour the war dead.

    Mr. Eagles, I see your view of the future is as fictional as your grasp of history.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 1,813
    edited September 2015
    On EU-Referendum Leave.

    Those have come in quite a bit in the last fortnight. I've been building a little position at 3-1 while waiting for someone to offer decent odds on the Ascension of JC - still haven't found anything convincing.

    Surely that is coming in more, with the current newsflow and Merkopalypse.
  • Good morning, everyone.

    I think PMQs may be quite odd today.

    Quite usual insofar as the spinners and astroturfers will be on pb to proclaim their man a clear winner.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,553
    alex

    "It's surprisingly early days, but the Tories might already need to be thinking in terms of a "Save Corbyn" campaign."

    'Eat shit . 2,000,000 flies can't be wrong'

    The noises are coming from daily Mail readers. Ignore



  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 25,648
    edited September 2015
    I can't get worked up over Jezza not singing the national anthem. But it's no surprise it's all over the papers. This is how it's going to be and it's all self inflicted. Turning up looking like someone whose been to Oxfam in advance of his first job interview for five years was by far the bigger sin for me because it did demonstrate a fundamental disrespect for the occasion. That's not acceptable.

    On topic. Out has a lot of passion and a potentially large pool of very motivated support. But it has terrible spokesmen. In can still win, but has a massive task on its hands. Cameron took the left for granted on this, but Greece has chaged everything. If it's close, the SNP might save him. That would be very amusing on many levels.
  • Charles said:

    alex. said:

    Roger said:

    Isn't the story of the day whether corbyn's lips were seen to move during the national anthem?

    1) I've tried my best, but I can't get outraged by a lifelong Republican not singing God Save The Queen

    2) PB is at its best when it is slight contrarian

    3) It's bloody tedious writing Corbyn is crap threads.
    Lol - you haven't written any yet :)
    Give it time. The piece I'm writing now is

    To understand the disaster that is the Corbyn leadership is to picture the Hindenburg meets Chernobyl meets Three Mile Island meets Tron 2 meets the Battle of Zama.
    Too clunky

    Howabout paralleling Lot/Gommorah with JC/Labour?
    I do like Biblical analogies.

    I was proud of the Book of Revelation references I got in yesterday.

    But Tron 2 allows me to reference Olivia Wilde, a future member of my harem
    Tron 2 was awful. The original was perfection.
  • On topic, the EU is not a decided issue inside the Labour Party. Most are EU-loyalists, a minority want out, many are sceptical. The TUC - as Nick pointed out earlier - pointed at the elephant in the room on this debate and called it an elephant. WHich is this - the "EU" that so many in the Labour party are loyal too is the democratic pro-worker institution which has kept the peace and improved lives. If the EU has decided to be anti-democratic, pro-banker/anti-worker, and now wants to fall apart over migrants, then all the bits people had been loyal to had gone. The "EU" is not a monolith that never changes.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 16,097
    Morning all. Oh to be a fly on the wall in Downing St as Dave prepares for PMQs.
    195 mins until popcorn time!
  • MattWMattW Posts: 1,813
    edited September 2015
    Roger said:

    Malc

    'Question of the day is when will the frothers stop wetting their pants about JC. Seems many on here lead sad lonely lives when they get so excited about so little, pretty amazing'

    Cheer yourself up Malc. Your leaderene has finally made it into Vogue. All those years wearing tartan wedges..........

    http://www.vogue.co.uk/news/2015/09/07/nicola-sturgeon-british-vogue-october-2015

    Nooo.

    Hearing news reports from inside the "fog where the sun never shines" is far too interesting.

    It is like Charlie Brown with his personal raincloud.
  • Mr. L, au contraire, there's usually very little mention of PMQs here. Much less than there was when, for example, it was Cameron and Brown [although that time did see some wild polling fluctuations and political fortunes].
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 16,097
    On topic - What chance that the PM and the Conservatives end up campaigning for Leave?

    It's been made quite clear in the last couple of weeks that there's definitely no Status Quo; if there's not a very definite Associate Membership on the table then leaving and negotiating a trade deal is surely the best option as the EuroZone countries integrate further?
  • Charles said:

    alex. said:

    Roger said:

    Isn't the story of the day whether corbyn's lips were seen to move during the national anthem?

    1) I've tried my best, but I can't get outraged by a lifelong Republican not singing God Save The Queen

    2) PB is at its best when it is slight contrarian

    3) It's bloody tedious writing Corbyn is crap threads.
    Lol - you haven't written any yet :)
    Give it time. The piece I'm writing now is

    To understand the disaster that is the Corbyn leadership is to picture the Hindenburg meets Chernobyl meets Three Mile Island meets Tron 2 meets the Battle of Zama.
    Too clunky

    Howabout paralleling Lot/Gommorah with JC/Labour?
    I do like Biblical analogies.

    I was proud of the Book of Revelation references I got in yesterday.

    But Tron 2 allows me to reference Olivia Wilde, a future member of my harem
    13 from House?
  • Another stunningly bad set of headlines for Jez this morning. One can only conclude, that, like Millwall supporters, he just doesn't care. He has his mandate and that's that. What will be interesting is if he rides out all this abuse and is still standing in 12 months time.
  • Charles said:

    alex. said:

    Roger said:

    Isn't the story of the day whether corbyn's lips were seen to move during the national anthem?

    1) I've tried my best, but I can't get outraged by a lifelong Republican not singing God Save The Queen

    2) PB is at its best when it is slight contrarian

    3) It's bloody tedious writing Corbyn is crap threads.
    Lol - you haven't written any yet :)
    Give it time. The piece I'm writing now is

    To understand the disaster that is the Corbyn leadership is to picture the Hindenburg meets Chernobyl meets Three Mile Island meets Tron 2 meets the Battle of Zama.
    Too clunky

    Howabout paralleling Lot/Gommorah with JC/Labour?
    I do like Biblical analogies.

    I was proud of the Book of Revelation references I got in yesterday.

    But Tron 2 allows me to reference Olivia Wilde, a future member of my harem
    13 from House?
    Yup
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 34,492
    @Labourpaul: I've just been on @LBC after George Galloway said in those circumstances he would have sung the national anthem. George Galloway.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,364
    edited September 2015

    Mr. L, au contraire, there's usually very little mention of PMQs here. Much less than there was when, for example, it was Cameron and Brown [although that time did see some wild polling fluctuations and political fortunes].

    Not really , not since tim/late of this parish/ Gordon Brown saving the world. Ed never really put a glove on Dave and the best they could do was whine about treating women disrespectfully and being a Bullingdon bully boy.


    Corbyn has to have something sensational to KO Dave, I'd like to know what it is. From where I am looking Labour has nothing to say about anything that is relevant and not fantastically stupid (eg endless benefits , printing £50 billion and so on and so forth)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 16,097
    edited September 2015

    I can't get worked up over Jezza not singing the national anthem. But it's no surprise it's all over the papers. This is how it's going to be and it's all self inflicted. Turning up looking like someone whose been to Oxfam in advance of his first job interview for five years was by far the bigger sin for me because it did demonstrate a fundamental disrespect for the occasion. That's not acceptable.

    Quite. Whether he likes it or not he's now in a position where protocol and looks are important. He needs to get a Chief of Staff who's not afraid to point these things out to him - and drag him to the tailor to get a couple of decent suits ASAP. Maybe Chukka can point him in the right direction ;)

    Should still have joined in with the National Anthem though. The military care about these things even if he cares not for the military.
  • Scott_P said:

    @Labourpaul: I've just been on @LBC after George Galloway said in those circumstances he would have sung the national anthem. George Galloway.

    Oh boy.
  • I see Polly is back to retweeting Eoin.

    That's always a good indicator of distress on the red team.
  • Scott_P said:

    @Labourpaul: I've just been on @LBC after George Galloway said in those circumstances he would have sung the national anthem. George Galloway.

    I think it was Owen Jones who tweeted how important it was for JC to make an effort to define himself early with Mr normal voter. His respectful protest yesterday certainly is a cut through way to do so.
  • How can people possibly have a position of "remain" in all circumstances, regardless of the deal on the table?

    It's like going to a call dealership and having an opening line to the salesman of "I'm going to buy this car regardless of the deal we come to" and then attempting to haggle about the price.

    This, of course, assumes that Cameron will actually have substantive negotiations, which is far from a given, but failure to do so would drive many more into the "leave" camp.

    Correct.

    During the campaign people will be asked "if we weren't members would you vote to join?"

    The answer will be a resounding NO

  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Ouch
    Scott_P said:

    Or

    The damage done to Scotland by the independence referendum battle has been revealed in a poll for The Times which shows that almost a quarter of Scots have been insulted or abused for the way they voted. Those who backed the Union last year are more likely to have been victims, according to the YouGov research.

    The poll also shows that slightly more Scots think that the plebiscite left the country more divided than united.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/scotland/article4558254.ece

  • Mr. L, au contraire, there's usually very little mention of PMQs here. Much less than there was when, for example, it was Cameron and Brown [although that time did see some wild polling fluctuations and political fortunes].

    Not really , not since tim/late of this parish/ Gordon Brown saving the world. Ed never really put a glove on Dave and the best they could do was whine about treating women disrespectfully and being a Bullingdon bully boy.


    Corbyn has to have something sensational to KO Dave, I'd like to know what it is. From where I am looking Labour has nothing to say about anything that is relevant and not fantastically stupid (eg endless benefits , printing £50 billion and so on and so forth)
    Actually I think Corbyn will find it much easier to score points against Dave. Ed was constrained by simultaneously wanting to break with reality while wanting to appear responsible. He was caught in a trap from which he couldn't walk out. So that's why we could see, what Dave was doing to him, as nobody would believe a word he had to say.

    But Corbyn has no reason to go on together with Dave, since he lives in his own reality those without suspicious minds can build their dreams upon what he says. Though his old 'friends' in his party will keep popping up to say hello with suspicion clear in their eyes.
  • Still not bet on his imminent departure but...


    Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB
    From YouGov Co founder "@nadhimzahawi: I am genuinely concerned that by the end of the week JC will give up being leader of the LAB Party."

    Iain Martin @iainmartin1
    The Tories will be praying Corbyn does well at PMQs. At this rate he will not last the month.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    If it's ever back on - his DiDiscs is fab. He's quite a wag.
    TOPPING said:

    Scott_P said:

    @TelePolitics: Jeremy Corbyn's shadow cabinet fury over 'disloyal' national anthem snub - live http://t.co/aB4HIJA3Gb

    Every piece about him certainly on the radio is full of criticism. From his own party. I don't think I've heard a single Cons criticising him.

    This morning it was Adm Lord West berating Jezza.
  • I see Polly is back to retweeting Eoin.

    That's always a good indicator of distress on the red team.

    What's happened to me in the fantasy football. I've gone from 3rd to 11th in a weekend.

    Only four points ahead of you. Crossover this weekend I fear
  • Still not bet on his imminent departure but...


    Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB
    From YouGov Co founder "@nadhimzahawi: I am genuinely concerned that by the end of the week JC will give up being leader of the LAB Party."

    Iain Martin @iainmartin1
    The Tories will be praying Corbyn does well at PMQs. At this rate he will not last the month.

    Nadhim Zahawi the Tory MP heh?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 34,492
    @GPW_Portland: Point well made by @bbclaurak the Tory strategy is to condemn ALL Labour as toxic, knowing Corbyn may not be around terribly long.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 16,097

    Still not bet on his imminent departure but...


    Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB
    From YouGov Co founder "@nadhimzahawi: I am genuinely concerned that by the end of the week JC will give up being leader of the LAB Party."

    Iain Martin @iainmartin1
    The Tories will be praying Corbyn does well at PMQs. At this rate he will not last the month.

    Nadhim Zahawi the Tory MP heh?
    Not sure if the Tories should be happy or nervous that the whole last four months of the Labour party eating itself might start all over again next week!
  • RobD said:

    Best outcome I think is one that closes the interminable debate on this for the foreseeable future so either a Leave vote (by any margin) or a clear and unambiguous Remain vote (like in 75).

    I wouldn't at this stage rule out either outcome. Nor would I assume that the TUC and Corbyn will be decisive any more than in 75 either. This debate will be decided based on the same way has long seemed likely - Remain campaigning on "jobs depend upon the EU" and Leave campaigning on Immigration and Sovereignty.

    Seems a bit unfair to the remain side that the Leave side only need 50%+1 to win, yet Remain need 75%.
    Leaver are like Jeremy Corbyn's friends/John McDonnell's heroes the IRA.

    Leave only has to be lucky once,

    Remain has to be lucky all the time.
    "Leave only has to be lucky once"

    That's forgetting the EU's habit of asking the same question again and again until the get the answer they want. :)

    Although the way things are going:
    1) There might not be an EU remaining by the time the referendum comes around (*)
    2) They might not want us. (**)

    (*) I know it's unlikely , but it has to be a possibility that one or more countries drops out. And it would all be Ed's fault ...
    (**) The UK leaving would lessen the need for a two-speed Europe, and ease the process of greater political union.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 2,542

    Mr. Barnesian, I think that's a reasonable response to someone going to the cinema.

    It's not for the Leader of the Opposition at a religious service to honour the war dead.

    Mr. Eagles, I see your view of the future is as fictional as your grasp of history.

    Alf Garnett would have had something to say about it! Here he is saying the Queen should be the Empress of Europe (otherwise the Pope will get the job and we'll have another Ireland).

    Alf - the original Kipper.

    Featuring Tony Blair's father-in-law, who would be a Corbyn fan.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,400
    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    Question of the day is when will the frothers stop wetting their pants about JC. Seems many on here lead sad lonely lives when they get so excited about so little, pretty amazing.

    Thanks Malcolm :( now I feel right down in the dumps.
    Rob , be uplifted by fact you are well down the frothers pecking order
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 6,246
    edited September 2015

    Another stunningly bad set of headlines for Jez this morning. One can only conclude, that, like Millwall supporters, he just doesn't care. He has his mandate and that's that. What will be interesting is if he rides out all this abuse and is still standing in 12 months time.

    Good morning all. I think we're in danger of misunderstanding Corbyn. Look at the man. Do you really think he gives two shits about newspaper headlines?

    He's a man on a mission. After a lifetime of espousing unfashionable causes, he's hardly going to be deflected or worried because the MSM are shrieking with faux horror.

    It's the serried ranks of Labour MPs behind him who are going to be quaking in their boots. Fortunately, Labour (to point out the bleedin' obvious) don't have either a track record or the mechanisms to replace the serial fruit loops they keep getting to lead their party. Poor Clement Attlee, what a fate for such a great party.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I think Operation Destroy Labour will definitely want him to hang around for a while yet.

    He's just the main star attraction.
    alex. said:

    It's surprisingly early days, but the Tories might already need to be thinking in terms of launching a "Save Corbyn" campaign. Operation "install Corbyn" is in danger of falling apart far too quickly.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,400
    Roger said:

    Malc

    'Question of the day is when will the frothers stop wetting their pants about JC. Seems many on here lead sad lonely lives when they get so excited about so little, pretty amazing'

    Cheer yourself up Malc. Your leaderene has finally made it into Vogue. All those years wearing tartan wedges..........

    http://www.vogue.co.uk/news/2015/09/07/nicola-sturgeon-british-vogue-october-2015

    All we need now is for The Bay City Rollers to make a comeback and life will be great.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,400
    Scott_P said:

    RobD said:

    Thanks Malcolm :( now I feel right down in the dumps.

    We could talk about other stuff...

    @BBCScotlandNews: Culture Secretary Fiona Hyslop to appear before Holyrood committee over T in the Park payment http://t.co/6M1Rzden6p http://t.co/iFHgnoljdk
    LOL, like casting pearls before swine
  • Mr. M, that's true, but Labour MPs must now be giving serious thought to actually getting rid of Corbyn.

    I doubt the Conservatives will be offering any of their expertise on regicide, though.
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