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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Has there ever been a scene like this before – the opposit

SystemSystem Posts: 5,841
edited November 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Has there ever been a scene like this before – the opposition leader on his own on the front while the PM speaks

The photo of Corbyn all alone on the Front Bench tonight has actually made me sad. Damn my middle-aged hormones pic.twitter.com/CaqPrZGoWs

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Comments

  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 8,899
    Cue for briefings, or a major rebellion? Can't think of an occasion when I Labour leader was so isolated by his own side. FPT.

    First.
  • it can be lonely at the top...

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,626
    What on earth happened? I know it's not something that's going to shift any public votes, or even an image seen outside political circles, but in the situation that they were there for, more should have been there all the way through. Was this at the start, the end?
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,219
    Ebola panic reaches the opposition?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,626
    FPT
    Dair said:

    maaarsh said:

    OT Anyone watched The Leftovers? A show from S2 is getting some great reviews.

    Yes - it's by far and away the best thing on TV at the moment. Fabulously emotionally manipulative. Very high up my all time list. Hope it gets the awards it deserves so HBO keep it going.
    No.

    The Leftovers is by Damon "Lost" Lindelof. He has even given interviews where he's said that not a single question raised in the series will ever be answered. Not just the big question over the Disappeared but ANY question.

    Which is why Season One ended with absolutely nothing answered (the Dogs, the National Geographic, the Sleepwalking, the White Shirts, etc, etc, etc) and Season Two did nothing but move the location (thus making it impossible to answer some questions) and add more.

    While all the Season One questions remain up in the air.

    It is Lindelof. Do not give the bastard a chance.
    I adored Lost, crappy finale though it had, I thought it one of the best shows ever, so I give Lindelof chances. I didn't know he was behind The Leftovers though, which I thought was utter garbage.

    Although speaking of other Lost alumni, Once Upon a Time is from a couple of Lost writers, and given how its timeline and characterisation is all over the place without a lick of sense, it's the guys who had to be reined in by all the rest of the staff on Lost I'd bet.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 8,899
    Safe space.
  • 52% want to leave the EU, not sure who the pollster is, but in the recent past the I and Independent have used BMG.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUhjmrEWEAId7Om.jpg
  • Front of the i with big polling news on EU.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 27,383
    edited November 2015

    it can be lonely at the top...

    Even Dianne has ditched him....

    It is a pretty disgraceful turn out on the Labour benches full stop. They can't all of had extremely important / urgent meetings to attend to. I think most of the public will ask the question, what the bloody hell do we pay them for?
  • On topic, the monstering Cameron gave Corbyn might have had something to do with it.

    It was brutal.
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 20,386
    edited November 2015
    Corbyn's defensive, cringing body language says Defeat and Self-doubt, which doesn't help, either.

    I've said before - months ago - that what might finish him off is not any maneuverings but the crushing sense of isolation, of being hated by his own side, week after week, which could lead to a resignation. Few could withstand the psychic torment.

    He might well quit. But the nasty, scheming Trots around him, especially McDonnell, will want to make sure they've got a replacement lefty ready to roll, before he is allowed to do that. They won't let go of the Labour party that easy.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Any staunch Labour supporters here got a comment ..About the Loneliness of the lone front bencher
  • kle4 said:

    What on earth happened? I know it's not something that's going to shift any public votes, or even an image seen outside political circles, but in the situation that they were there for, more should have been there all the way through. Was this at the start, the end?

    It was towards the end, at the start all the Labour mob were out in force.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 27,383
    edited November 2015
    SeanT said:

    Corbyn's defensive, cringing body language says Defeat and Self-doubt, which doesn't help, either.

    I've said before - months ago - that what might finish him off is not any maneuverings but the crushing sense of isolation, of being hated by his own side, week after week, which could lead to a resignation. Few could withstand the psychic torment.

    He might well quit. But the nasty, scheming Trots around him, especially McDonnell, will want to make sure they've got a replacement lefty ready to roll, before he is allowed to do that. They won't let go of the Labour party that easy.

    The rot has already started to set in e.g with this announcement of the thought police are going to monitor all Labourites tweets and discipline any who say something that the NEC determine are unhelpful.
  • @johnmcdonnellMP: Great PLP meeting tonight as people gear up for the Autumn Statement on Wednesday. Sense of solidarity against Osborne's cuts plans.
  • There was a fascinating article in the Times today by Matt Ridley.

    He argues that fears about Islam may turn out to be overblown - firstly due to the fact that many Muslim countries are seeing plummeting birthrates (countries including Qatar, Oman, UAE but also Iran and Algeria have seen a 60% drop in birthrate in the last 30 years) and secondly due to increased secularism in these countries. He cites a 2012 poll that found 5% of Saudis were atheists and 19% non-believers, while for Lebanon it was 37%. These figures may be underestimates as in Saudi and many other Islamic countries non-belief is a criminal offence

    "Whatever your origin and however well you have been brainwashed there is just something about living in a society with restaurants and mobile phones, universities and social media, that makes it hard to go on thinking that morality derives exclusively from superstition"
  • @johnmcdonnellMP: Great PLP meeting tonight as people gear up for the Autumn Statement on Wednesday. Sense of solidarity against Osborne's cuts plans.

    Was the PLP meeting a bit like this photo? Just McDonnell talking to himself?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,626

    kle4 said:

    What on earth happened? I know it's not something that's going to shift any public votes, or even an image seen outside political circles, but in the situation that they were there for, more should have been there all the way through. Was this at the start, the end?

    It was towards the end, at the start all the Labour mob were out in force.
    And no-one stuck around? Christ, you can read an iPad and catch up on emails if you have better things to do, but fill some time at least.

    @johnmcdonnellMP: Great PLP meeting tonight as people gear up for the Autumn Statement on Wednesday. Sense of solidarity against Osborne's cuts plans.

    I can almost believe that one - they tried half heartedly backing cuts before, and I can believe they are as close to united as they can be on giving a newish direction.
  • kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    What on earth happened? I know it's not something that's going to shift any public votes, or even an image seen outside political circles, but in the situation that they were there for, more should have been there all the way through. Was this at the start, the end?

    It was towards the end, at the start all the Labour mob were out in force.
    And no-one stuck around? Christ, you can read an iPad and catch up on emails if you have better things to do, but fill some time at least.

    @johnmcdonnellMP: Great PLP meeting tonight as people gear up for the Autumn Statement on Wednesday. Sense of solidarity against Osborne's cuts plans.

    I can almost believe that one - they tried half heartedly backing cuts before, and I can believe they are as close to united as they can be on giving a newish direction.
    Watch the Eagle sisters in the video of Dave's monstering of Corbyn.

  • @johnmcdonnellMP: Great PLP meeting tonight as people gear up for the Autumn Statement on Wednesday. Sense of solidarity against Osborne's cuts plans.

    Was the PLP meeting a bit like this photo? Just McDonnell talking to himself?
    Labour MPs have been told not to talk to the press about tonight's PLP meeting
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    The Labour team were all out in force at the outset..then they bollectively remembered some important things they had to do..Leave the Chamber..The bar was open..went to buy a paper..check the pressure in their car tyres..comb their hair..wander around..plot..etc...
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    lol @ Betvictor & Stan James cutting their odds on the tories winning OW&R.

    Not going to happen.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    @johnmcdonnellMP: Great PLP meeting tonight as people gear up for the Autumn Statement on Wednesday. Sense of solidarity against Osborne's cuts plans.

    Was the PLP meeting a bit like this photo? Just McDonnell talking to himself?
    Labour MPs have been told not to talk to the press about tonight's PLP meeting
    Shouldn't be long then...
  • This women for C4 has been undercover for 12 months. Very brave.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    kle4 said:

    Dair said:

    maaarsh said:

    OT Anyone watched The Leftovers? A show from S2 is getting some great reviews.

    Yes - it's by far and away the best thing on TV at the moment. Fabulously emotionally manipulative. Very high up my all time list. Hope it gets the awards it deserves so HBO keep it going.
    No.

    The Leftovers is by Damon "Lost" Lindelof. He has even given interviews where he's said that not a single question raised in the series will ever be answered. Not just the big question over the Disappeared but ANY question.

    Which is why Season One ended with absolutely nothing answered (the Dogs, the National Geographic, the Sleepwalking, the White Shirts, etc, etc, etc) and Season Two did nothing but move the location (thus making it impossible to answer some questions) and add more.

    While all the Season One questions remain up in the air.

    It is Lindelof. Do not give the bastard a chance.
    I adored Lost, crappy finale though it had, I thought it one of the best shows ever, so I give Lindelof chances. I didn't know he was behind The Leftovers though, which I thought was utter garbage.

    Although speaking of other Lost alumni, Once Upon a Time is from a couple of Lost writers, and given how its timeline and characterisation is all over the place without a lick of sense, it's the guys who had to be reined in by all the rest of the staff on Lost I'd bet.
    I didn't watch Lost and therefore gave Leftovers a chance.

    I wish I hadn't. There are good aspects of a character study in the series. Indeed, if he completely ignored the random inclusion of "mysteries" it would be a much better piece of work.

    But every time he added a new "mystery" and given the widespread coverage that nothing would be answered, then reading more about how Lost actually played out, it seemed best to just drop it.

    In Season One, I was thinking about the elements he included, wondering what it all meant and how it would all tie together (the way, for example Mr Robot did) and then realised it never would, the showrunner was laughing at his own audience and just gave up.

    Lindelof is a troll. His shows just troll his own fanbois.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,429
    edited November 2015
    MY God! There can never have been a picture like this before, nor a monstering by a Prime Minister who gave everyone a clear picture of Corbyn doctrine.

    Where is NIck Palmer when you need him.????. I'd like to tell him what I think of Corbyn too, and ask him to justify his support.
  • TomsToms Posts: 1,498
    From the go-get I have been saying that JC is the wrong person to lead the Labour party.

    But in that picture there is only one disseminator of untruth and his surname begins with "C".
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,626
    Who's the other person on the front bench waaaay off to the left of the picture. They couldn't scoot up a bit?

    I know it's silly, as Corbyn fans will no doubt insist, and it means nothing about Labour's electoral prospects (except insofar it reflects, perhaps, its internal politics and subsequent impact), but it's one of the more amusing photos I've seen since the Edstone, that glorious moment where even most of those who thought Ed M would win, like myself, could have a good old chuckle at a proper stupid joke.
  • Re that poll

    Survation was approached by the Sun because the paper’s regular pollsters, YouGov, “didn’t want to do the poll”. YouGov said it did not want to carry out the study because it could not be confident that it could accurately represent the British Muslim population within the timeframe and budget set by the paper.

    A spokesperson said: “To survey Britain’s Muslim population, particularly at a time of such heightened sensitivities, requires the kind of time, care, and therefore cost, that is beyond a newspaper’s budget.”

    Other pollsters told the Guardian that it could require tens of thousands of phone calls at a cost of tens of thousands of pounds to generate a statistically representative sample of the 2.7 million Muslims who live in the UK.

    http://bit.ly/1Sg1obb
  • PaulyPauly Posts: 857
    Biggest crucifixion of a J.C. since Jesus Christ?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 1,468

    There was a fascinating article in the Times today by Matt Ridley.

    He argues that fears about Islam may turn out to be overblown - firstly due to the fact that many Muslim countries are seeing plummeting birthrates (countries including Qatar, Oman, UAE but also Iran and Algeria have seen a 60% drop in birthrate in the last 30 years) and secondly due to increased secularism in these countries. He cites a 2012 poll that found 5% of Saudis were atheists and 19% non-believers, while for Lebanon it was 37%. These figures may be underestimates as in Saudi and many other Islamic countries non-belief is a criminal offence

    "Whatever your origin and however well you have been brainwashed there is just something about living in a society with restaurants and mobile phones, universities and social media, that makes it hard to go on thinking that morality derives exclusively from superstition"

    Of interest is Iran - hardline Islam and DeathToAmerica have convinced the youner generation of basically the opposite.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,626
    Dair said:

    kle4 said:

    Dair said:

    maaarsh said:

    OT Anyone watched The Leftovers? A show from S2 is getting some great reviews.

    Yes - it's by far and away the best thing on TV at the moment. Fabulously emotionally manipulative. Very high up my all time list. Hope it gets the awards it deserves so HBO keep it going.
    No.

    The Leftovers is by Damon "Lost" Lindelof. He has even given interviews where he's said that not a single question raised in the series will ever be answered. Not just the big question over the Disappeared but ANY question.

    Which is why Season One ended with absolutely nothing answered (the Dogs, the National Geographic, the Sleepwalking, the White Shirts, etc, etc, etc) and Season Two did nothing but move the location (thus making it impossible to answer some questions) and add more.

    While all the Season One questions remain up in the air.

    It is Lindelof. Do not give the bastard a chance.
    I adored Lost, crappy finale though it had, I thought it one of the best shows ever, so I give Lindelof chances. I didn't know he was behind The Leftovers though, which I thought was utter garbage.

    Although speaking of other Lost alumni, Once Upon a Time is from a couple of Lost writers, and given how its timeline and characterisation is all over the place without a lick of sense, it's the guys who had to be reined in by all the rest of the staff on Lost I'd bet.
    Lindelof is a troll. His shows just troll his own fanbois.
    You may be right. I'll still defend Lost, many of the 'unanswered questions' of that did in fact have answers provided, or didn't need answering in a specific sense, but he's not had many positives since when he was the primary creative force.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    maaarsh said:

    Dair said:

    maaarsh said:

    OT Anyone watched The Leftovers? A show from S2 is getting some great reviews.

    Yes - it's by far and away the best thing on TV at the moment. Fabulously emotionally manipulative. Very high up my all time list. Hope it gets the awards it deserves so HBO keep it going.
    No.

    The Leftovers is by Damon "Lost" Lindelof. He has even given interviews where he's said that not a single question raised in the series will ever be answered. Not just the big question over the Disappeared but ANY question.

    Which is why Season One ended with absolutely nothing answered (the Dogs, the National Geographic, the Sleepwalking, the White Shirts, etc, etc, etc) and Season Two did nothing but move the location (thus making it impossible to answer some questions) and add more.

    While all the Season One questions remain up in the air.

    It is Lindelof. Do not give the bastard a chance.

    If you don't get what the show is about and feel upset at the lack of trite answers to irrelevant questions then it will definitely leave you disappointed.

    The 2nd series is getting rave reviews precisely because of the ambiguous setup leaving far more interesting possibilities than just spending 10 hours giving some stupid explanation of a rapture that ends up pissing off atheists or theists or both.
    Oh, honestly, piss off.

    You're being trolled by Lindelof and you deserve no pity.

    There is nothing trite about expecting an answer or at least an *indication* of an answer when a series raises a question. It's called Checkov's Shotgun. Lindelof is the opposite,. He introduces concepts for no reason, with no meaning, for no purpose.

    In effect a Lindelof show is a Choose Your Own Adventure, where you read the first paragraph and it sounds AMAZING, then it says "choose x or y, turn to page a or b" and page a and b are blank except for teh "turn to page g or h" at the end and it wants you to write out what you think based on... nothing.

    It is absolutely disgusting televion, it is absolutely worthless and should not be given the time of day.

    Watch Mr Robot, then go back and realise how badly Lindelof treats his audience.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Cameron ripped Corbyn a new one and it looked like Corbyn felt the pain..
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,303

    MPs used to 'donut' around the leader/speaker to make it look like there were lots of them when the camera closed in.

    Now they cannot get far enough away. Corbyn is toxic, and they know it.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,626
    Now we should be fair - perhaps the backbenches are just much more comfortable, less worn down, than the frontbenches.
  • kle4 said:

    Now we should be fair - perhaps the backbenches are just much more comfortable, less worn down, than the frontbenches.

    Perhaps Corbyn has a BO problem.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 19,436
    My daughter is a better person than me. She thought it was sad too.

    Me, I think he deserves everything he gets.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,125
    kle4 said:

    Who's the other person on the front bench waaaay off to the left of the picture. They couldn't scoot up a bit?

    I know it's silly, as Corbyn fans will no doubt insist, and it means nothing about Labour's electoral prospects (except insofar it reflects, perhaps, its internal politics and subsequent impact), but it's one of the more amusing photos I've seen since the Edstone, that glorious moment where even most of those who thought Ed M would win, like myself, could have a good old chuckle at a proper stupid joke.

    This picture just makes me sad - sad for Labour, sad for Mr Corbyn, even a bit sad for Mr Cameron (imagine actors playing to an empty house).

    The Ed Stone was genuinely funny: funny in concept and funny as a photo.
  • Haven't quite worked out what sort of impact, UK air strikes in Syria will have on IS - they're being bombed by the US, Russia and France already? What happens if it doesn't work...more importantly, what happens if it does? Assad can then target his forces on the other groups opposing him.
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    'To survey Britain’s Muslim population, particularly at a time of such heightened sensitivities...'

    The second part is the clue. They just didn't want to do it.

    I doubt they would have expressed such reservations/concerns about 'accuracy' about any other group though.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Has the Labour candidate ever lost an election?
  • There is no way this man is going to last as leader until the next election.

    Politicians are generally a thick skinned breed, but Corbyn is so isolated in his own parliamentary party. He can't go a week without opening his mouth and coming out with yet another gaffe that causes uproar not just on the government benches but amongst his own MPs too. The question is how much can he take? He doesn't look to me like he's enjoying being leader at all.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    kle4 said:

    Dair said:

    kle4 said:

    Dair said:

    maaarsh said:

    OT Anyone watched The Leftovers? A show from S2 is getting some great reviews.

    Yes - it's by far and away the best thing on TV at the moment. Fabulously emotionally manipulative. Very high up my all time list. Hope it gets the awards it deserves so HBO keep it going.
    No.

    The Leftovers is by Damon "Lost" Lindelof. He has even given interviews where he's said that not a single question raised in the series will ever be answered. Not just the big question over the Disappeared but ANY question.

    Which is why Season One ended with absolutely nothing answered (the Dogs, the National Geographic, the Sleepwalking, the White Shirts, etc, etc, etc) and Season Two did nothing but move the location (thus making it impossible to answer some questions) and add more.

    While all the Season One questions remain up in the air.

    It is Lindelof. Do not give the bastard a chance.
    I adored Lost, crappy finale though it had, I thought it one of the best shows ever, so I give Lindelof chances. I didn't know he was behind The Leftovers though, which I thought was utter garbage.

    Although speaking of other Lost alumni, Once Upon a Time is from a couple of Lost writers, and given how its timeline and characterisation is all over the place without a lick of sense, it's the guys who had to be reined in by all the rest of the staff on Lost I'd bet.
    Lindelof is a troll. His shows just troll his own fanbois.
    You may be right. I'll still defend Lost, many of the 'unanswered questions' of that did in fact have answers provided, or didn't need answering in a specific sense, but he's not had many positives since when he was the primary creative force.
    I would say to anyone defending Lost or Leftovers to compare the shows to Mr Robot.

    Having watched Mr Robot, do you still feel the same.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    ...snip...

    Where is NIck Palmer when you need him.????. I'd like to tell him what I think of Corbyn too, and ask him to justify his support.

    NPX2MP will be along shortly to explain that a few people had nipped out to the WC, whilst the rest were helping each other get the drinks in and set up a surprise party for Corbyn. Or some equally ridiculous nonsense.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 19,436

    Haven't quite worked out what sort of impact, UK air strikes in Syria will have on IS - they're being bombed by the US, Russia and France already? What happens if it doesn't work...more importantly, what happens if it does? Assad can then target his forces on the other groups opposing him.

    There is no way our current level of commitment with 8 slightly elderly planes and our oh so careful rules of engagement is going to have a military impact. This is either a stepping stone to us being genuinely useful or buying a seat at the table for any denouement.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 1,468
    One last comment on the defense review. It occurs to me that many here don't realise exactly how disastrous the Nimrod MRA4 was.

    The essential idea was to keep the old fuselage (heavily refurbished) and replace the wings.

    The new wings famously didn't fit. This was laughed off as part and parcel of using a 1950s plane - fits where it touches. But this touched on (ha) the fact that the original Comets were in fact badly built by De Havilands and a poor design. Many of the early crashes weren't due to metal fatigue, but simple poor design.

    Anyway, the other thing the new wings had was an increased sweep. This moved the centre of lift backwards. So the MRA4 would tend to dive unless corrected... So BAe installed a massive trim tab on the tail. In effect a permanent tip-the-nose-up.

    The only slight problem with that is that it meant that the fuselage of the MRA4 would be permanently under a bending strain in flight - together with vibration from the trim tab.

    The MOD air safety people discovered that BAe hadn't done proper fatigue calculations, or indeed proper stability calculations on the modified aircraft. The answer to those sums, when done was pretty horrifying. To add to the fun, the fuel system which caused an earlier Nimrod to explode in mid air was unchanged....

    The air safety people came to the conclusion that the MRA4 was not just unsafe, but that no practical redesign would make it so.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,626
    Dair said:

    kle4 said:

    Dair said:

    kle4 said:

    Dair said:

    maaarsh said:

    OT Anyone watched The Leftovers? A show from S2 is getting some great reviews.

    Yes - it's by far and away the best thing on TV at the moment. Fabulously emotionally manipulative. Very high up my all time list. Hope it gets the awards it deserves so HBO keep it going.
    No.

    The Leftovers is by Damon "Lost" Lindelof. He has even given interviews where he's said that not a single question raised in the series will ever be answered. Not just the big question over the Disappeared but ANY question.

    Which is why Season One ended with absolutely nothing answered (the Dogs, the National Geographic, the Sleepwalking, the White Shirts, etc, etc, etc) and Season Two did nothing but move the location (thus making it impossible to answer some questions) and add more.

    While all the Season One questions remain up in the air.

    It is Lindelof. Do not give the bastard a chance.
    I adored Lost, crappy finale though it had, I thought it one of the best shows ever, so I give Lindelof chances. I didn't know he was behind The Leftovers though, which I thought was utter garbage.

    Although speaking of other Lost alumni, Once Upon a Time is from a couple of Lost writers, and given how its timeline and characterisation is all over the place without a lick of sense, it's the guys who had to be reined in by all the rest of the staff on Lost I'd bet.
    Lindelof is a troll. His shows just troll his own fanbois.
    You may be right. I'll still defend Lost, many of the 'unanswered questions' of that did in fact have answers provided, or didn't need answering in a specific sense, but he's not had many positives since when he was the primary creative force.
    I would say to anyone defending Lost or Leftovers to compare the shows to Mr Robot.

    Having watched Mr Robot, do you still feel the same.
    Couldn't get into it. I'll give it another go though, unlike the leftovers.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    DavidL said:

    My daughter is a better person than me. She thought it was sad too.

    Me, I think he deserves everything he gets.

    Should the very significant number of people who support him be completely without representation?

    Surely that is the core here. At least 25% of the British public agree completely with Corbyn. The Electoral System wants their opinion excised from the debate.

    The FPTP system is forcing politics where parties bend with the wind instead of taking a principle and trying to persuade and sell that to people. Multi-party politics is needed an Corbyn demonstrates that.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    This women for C4 has been undercover for 12 months. Very brave.

    Hard to know how many of the troublemakers outside the Regents Park mosque are real jihadis and how many are Mi5 informers or agents. Some who seem too untouchable may not be all they seem.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 2,805

    This women for C4 has been undercover for 12 months. Very brave.

    Hard to know how many of the troublemakers outside the Regents Park mosque are real jihadis and how many are Mi5 informers or agents. Some who seem too untouchable may not be all they seem.
    There are certain names that come up very often, and it is not unknown in recent times for the security services to have significant access to the very top of movements threatening Britain from within.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    One last comment on the defense review. It occurs to me that many here don't realise exactly how disastrous the Nimrod MRA4 was.

    The essential idea was to keep the old fuselage (heavily refurbished) and replace the wings.

    The new wings famously didn't fit. This was laughed off as part and parcel of using a 1950s plane - fits where it touches. But this touched on (ha) the fact that the original Comets were in fact badly built by De Havilands and a poor design. Many of the early crashes weren't due to metal fatigue, but simple poor design.

    Anyway, the other thing the new wings had was an increased sweep. This moved the centre of lift backwards. So the MRA4 would tend to dive unless corrected... So BAe installed a massive trim tab on the tail. In effect a permanent tip-the-nose-up.

    The only slight problem with that is that it meant that the fuselage of the MRA4 would be permanently under a bending strain in flight - together with vibration from the trim tab.

    The MOD air safety people discovered that BAe hadn't done proper fatigue calculations, or indeed proper stability calculations on the modified aircraft. The answer to those sums, when done was pretty horrifying. To add to the fun, the fuel system which caused an earlier Nimrod to explode in mid air was unchanged....

    The air safety people came to the conclusion that the MRA4 was not just unsafe, but that no practical redesign would make it so.

    Nimrods were a death trap, and only too aware of the 'Duty of Care' the MoD and RAF had towards their flight crew, they took the right decision.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,626

    This women for C4 has been undercover for 12 months. Very brave.

    Hard to know how many of the troublemakers outside the Regents Park mosque are real jihadis and how many are Mi5 informers or agents.
    I hope it's not all of them!

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 19,299

    One last comment on the defense review. It occurs to me that many here don't realise exactly how disastrous the Nimrod MRA4 was.

    The essential idea was to keep the old fuselage (heavily refurbished) and replace the wings.

    The new wings famously didn't fit. This was laughed off as part and parcel of using a 1950s plane - fits where it touches. But this touched on (ha) the fact that the original Comets were in fact badly built by De Havilands and a poor design. Many of the early crashes weren't due to metal fatigue, but simple poor design.

    Anyway, the other thing the new wings had was an increased sweep. This moved the centre of lift backwards. So the MRA4 would tend to dive unless corrected... So BAe installed a massive trim tab on the tail. In effect a permanent tip-the-nose-up.

    The only slight problem with that is that it meant that the fuselage of the MRA4 would be permanently under a bending strain in flight - together with vibration from the trim tab.

    The MOD air safety people discovered that BAe hadn't done proper fatigue calculations, or indeed proper stability calculations on the modified aircraft. The answer to those sums, when done was pretty horrifying. To add to the fun, the fuel system which caused an earlier Nimrod to explode in mid air was unchanged....

    The air safety people came to the conclusion that the MRA4 was not just unsafe, but that no practical redesign would make it so.

    Thanks. I hadn't realised the redesign was that poor.
  • DavidL said:

    Haven't quite worked out what sort of impact, UK air strikes in Syria will have on IS - they're being bombed by the US, Russia and France already? What happens if it doesn't work...more importantly, what happens if it does? Assad can then target his forces on the other groups opposing him.

    There is no way our current level of commitment with 8 slightly elderly planes and our oh so careful rules of engagement is going to have a military impact. This is either a stepping stone to us being genuinely useful or buying a seat at the table for any denouement.
    I just hope those who are in favour of it, have the stomach for the images of bombed civilians' body parts littering the streets that will inevitably be posted on social media.
  • ORB EU ref poll Leave 52% (+5) Remain 48 (-5)

    Changes since last month

    http://ind.pn/1MNAzYq
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    kle4 said:

    This women for C4 has been undercover for 12 months. Very brave.

    Hard to know how many of the troublemakers outside the Regents Park mosque are real jihadis and how many are Mi5 informers or agents.
    I hope it's not all of them!

    I think the McLibel trial showed that multiple organisations had penetrated the same group unwittingly!
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,451
    Time for the cowardly Labour MPs to make like their Union bosses and strike to save Labour.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 1,468

    One last comment on the defense review. It occurs to me that many here don't realise exactly how disastrous the Nimrod MRA4 was.

    The essential idea was to keep the old fuselage (heavily refurbished) and replace the wings.

    The new wings famously didn't fit. This was laughed off as part and parcel of using a 1950s plane - fits where it touches. But this touched on (ha) the fact that the original Comets were in fact badly built by De Havilands and a poor design. Many of the early crashes weren't due to metal fatigue, but simple poor design.

    Anyway, the other thing the new wings had was an increased sweep. This moved the centre of lift backwards. So the MRA4 would tend to dive unless corrected... So BAe installed a massive trim tab on the tail. In effect a permanent tip-the-nose-up.

    The only slight problem with that is that it meant that the fuselage of the MRA4 would be permanently under a bending strain in flight - together with vibration from the trim tab.

    The MOD air safety people discovered that BAe hadn't done proper fatigue calculations, or indeed proper stability calculations on the modified aircraft. The answer to those sums, when done was pretty horrifying. To add to the fun, the fuel system which caused an earlier Nimrod to explode in mid air was unchanged....

    The air safety people came to the conclusion that the MRA4 was not just unsafe, but that no practical redesign would make it so.

    Thanks. I hadn't realised the redesign was that poor.
    One Conservative minister wanted to sue BAe. He was dissuaded by the fact that idiotic civil servants had signed off on the lunatic design - crippling any case. Plus the Lib Dems (strangely) wanted to protect BAe as a UK "Champion".

    That plus the carrier comedy has essentially killed alot BAe influence with the current government. Notice poor old Con Coughlin getting all upset in the Telegraph about their lost orders....
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    TKA We have had images like that all week from Paris
    ]
  • Dair said:

    DavidL said:

    My daughter is a better person than me. She thought it was sad too.

    Me, I think he deserves everything he gets.

    Should the very significant number of people who support him be completely without representation?

    Surely that is the core here. At least 25% of the British public agree completely with Corbyn. The Electoral System wants their opinion excised from the debate.

    The FPTP system is forcing politics where parties bend with the wind instead of taking a principle and trying to persuade and sell that to people. Multi-party politics is needed an Corbyn demonstrates that.
    I call bull. Where do you get the idea that at least a quarter of the public agree "completely" with Corbyn?

    A quarter of the public may not consider him completely crazy. A quarter may find him less repellant than they find Cameron. But a quarter agree "completely"? I don't think so.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    kle4 said:

    Dair said:

    I would say to anyone defending Lost or Leftovers to compare the shows to Mr Robot.

    Having watched Mr Robot, do you still feel the same.

    Couldn't get into it. I'll give it another go though, unlike the leftovers.
    The only danger with Mr Robot is that some viewers think they saw what was happening (because there was a very obvious "twist" set up for anyone with a passing knowledge of popular culture).

    What Esmail did was subvert this with several very hard to spot twists (although once you see them they are so obvious - as the best writing does).

    Sadly, time stops me watching the whole thing through again knowing how it finishes but I will do so in the weeks leading up to Season Two. It is an absolutely amazing show. Probably the best television show I have ever seen (although to share that, you probably need a reasonable interest in technology, sub-culture and corporate culture).
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,451

    kle4 said:

    Now we should be fair - perhaps the backbenches are just much more comfortable, less worn down, than the frontbenches.

    Perhaps Corbyn has a BO problem.
    Blatantly Ostracised ?
  • TKA We have had images like that all week from Paris
    ]

    Indeed...and just look how it changed opinions
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 1,468

    Dair said:

    DavidL said:

    My daughter is a better person than me. She thought it was sad too.

    Me, I think he deserves everything he gets.

    Should the very significant number of people who support him be completely without representation?

    Surely that is the core here. At least 25% of the British public agree completely with Corbyn. The Electoral System wants their opinion excised from the debate.

    The FPTP system is forcing politics where parties bend with the wind instead of taking a principle and trying to persuade and sell that to people. Multi-party politics is needed an Corbyn demonstrates that.
    I call bull. Where do you get the idea that at least a quarter of the public agree "completely" with Corbyn?

    A quarter of the public may not consider him completely crazy. A quarter may find him less repellant than they find Cameron. But a quarter agree "completely"? I don't think so.
    If you could, indeed get 25% of the population to vote for Corbyn, then you would probably get quite a few seats in the House of Commons under the current system. Three figures probably.

    It just wouldn't be enough to form a government. Which is why quite a few people in the Labour party aren't enthused by the idea.
  • DavidL said:

    Haven't quite worked out what sort of impact, UK air strikes in Syria will have on IS - they're being bombed by the US, Russia and France already? What happens if it doesn't work...more importantly, what happens if it does? Assad can then target his forces on the other groups opposing him.

    There is no way our current level of commitment with 8 slightly elderly planes and our oh so careful rules of engagement is going to have a military impact. This is either a stepping stone to us being genuinely useful or buying a seat at the table for any denouement.
    I just hope those who are in favour of it, have the stomach for the images of bombed civilians' body parts littering the streets that will inevitably be posted on social media.
    Like already happens? That's why I'm in favour of it.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    TKA It certainly did...that is why the French are bombing on a daily basis..
  • mattmatt Posts: 1,612

    One last comment on the defense review. It occurs to me that many here don't realise exactly how disastrous the Nimrod MRA4 was.

    The essential idea was to keep the old fuselage (heavily refurbished) and replace the wings.

    The new wings famously didn't fit. This was laughed off as part and parcel of using a 1950s plane - fits where it touches. But this touched on (ha) the fact that the original Comets were in fact badly built by De Havilands and a poor design. Many of the early crashes weren't due to metal fatigue, but simple poor design.

    Anyway, the other thing the new wings had was an increased sweep. This moved the centre of lift backwards. So the MRA4 would tend to dive unless corrected... So BAe installed a massive trim tab on the tail. In effect a permanent tip-the-nose-up.

    The only slight problem with that is that it meant that the fuselage of the MRA4 would be permanently under a bending strain in flight - together with vibration from the trim tab.

    The MOD air safety people discovered that BAe hadn't done proper fatigue calculations, or indeed proper stability calculations on the modified aircraft. The answer to those sums, when done was pretty horrifying. To add to the fun, the fuel system which caused an earlier Nimrod to explode in mid air was unchanged....

    The air safety people came to the conclusion that the MRA4 was not just unsafe, but that no practical redesign would make it so.

    Thanks. I hadn't realised the redesign was that poor.
    One Conservative minister wanted to sue BAe. He was dissuaded by the fact that idiotic civil servants had signed off on the lunatic design - crippling any case. Plus the Lib Dems (strangely) wanted to protect BAe as a UK "Champion".

    That plus the carrier comedy has essentially killed alot BAe influence with the current government. Notice poor old Con Coughlin getting all upset in the Telegraph about their lost orders....
    When people say we should follow the advice of senior military, I recommend that they read the report into the loss of the Nimrod over Afghanistan. BAE hardly covered themselves in glory, either.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108


    Thanks. I hadn't realised the redesign was that poor.

    One Conservative minister wanted to sue BAe. He was dissuaded by the fact that idiotic civil servants had signed off on the lunatic design - crippling any case. Plus the Lib Dems (strangely) wanted to protect BAe as a UK "Champion".

    That plus the carrier comedy has essentially killed alot BAe influence with the current government. Notice poor old Con Coughlin getting all upset in the Telegraph about their lost orders....
    It makes absolutely no sense to me why Public Sector contracts place the ENTIRE risk on the taxpayer and none of the rick on the private company.

    Surely all contracts should involve risk on both parties. When you see companies who bid low then "revise" the price and governments simply agree to pay the extra, the whole premise of Public Sector contracts is undermined.

    If a private company offers to build something for £10bn in a Public Sector contract then it should deliver exactly what is required for exactly £10bn and if it needs to spend more and make a loss, it should be the private company that pays the difference.
  • 52% want to leave the EU, not sure who the pollster is, but in the recent past the I and Independent have used BMG.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUhjmrEWEAId7Om.jpg

    Needs to be a 6-8 point consistent lead before I start to believe there's a chance.
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 1,920
    Could you bear to listen to Cameron for more than 2 hours having to listen to his odious plummy old Etonian establishment accent without wanting to land a good right hook on the man?
    Going back to Keiran's previous thread,it's clear The Sun was following the islamophobic orders of its' proprietor.This image though has consequences in the permission it gives to those who would persecute hate crimes,just as the framing of disabled people as faking scroungers does for increasing hate crimes against disabled people.The Sun makes hatred acceptable and does not care about the consequences.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/paris-attacks-british-muslims-face-300-spike-in-racial-attacks-in-week-following-terror-a6744376.html

  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Dair said:

    DavidL said:

    My daughter is a better person than me. She thought it was sad too.

    Me, I think he deserves everything he gets.

    Should the very significant number of people who support him be completely without representation?

    Surely that is the core here. At least 25% of the British public agree completely with Corbyn. The Electoral System wants their opinion excised from the debate.

    The FPTP system is forcing politics where parties bend with the wind instead of taking a principle and trying to persuade and sell that to people. Multi-party politics is needed an Corbyn demonstrates that.
    I call bull. Where do you get the idea that at least a quarter of the public agree "completely" with Corbyn?

    A quarter of the public may not consider him completely crazy. A quarter may find him less repellant than they find Cameron. But a quarter agree "completely"? I don't think so.
    Then let us be certain.

    Let us offer the British people fully representative government instead of gerrymandered, broken voting where people get ignored even when tehy have a significant plurality of support.

    AMS offers all the proportionality of a proper electoral system while maintaining the (apparently) valued "local representative". A perfect system. Give it to the United Kingdom.

    Now.
  • Dair said:


    Thanks. I hadn't realised the redesign was that poor.

    One Conservative minister wanted to sue BAe. He was dissuaded by the fact that idiotic civil servants had signed off on the lunatic design - crippling any case. Plus the Lib Dems (strangely) wanted to protect BAe as a UK "Champion".

    That plus the carrier comedy has essentially killed alot BAe influence with the current government. Notice poor old Con Coughlin getting all upset in the Telegraph about their lost orders....
    It makes absolutely no sense to me why Public Sector contracts place the ENTIRE risk on the taxpayer and none of the rick on the private company.

    Surely all contracts should involve risk on both parties. When you see companies who bid low then "revise" the price and governments simply agree to pay the extra, the whole premise of Public Sector contracts is undermined.

    If a private company offers to build something for £10bn in a Public Sector contract then it should deliver exactly what is required for exactly £10bn and if it needs to spend more and make a loss, it should be the private company that pays the difference.
    I imagine that happens more often than you realise, it just doesn't get publicised that often as it isn't deemed newsworthy.
  • DavidL said:

    Haven't quite worked out what sort of impact, UK air strikes in Syria will have on IS - they're being bombed by the US, Russia and France already? What happens if it doesn't work...more importantly, what happens if it does? Assad can then target his forces on the other groups opposing him.

    There is no way our current level of commitment with 8 slightly elderly planes and our oh so careful rules of engagement is going to have a military impact. This is either a stepping stone to us being genuinely useful or buying a seat at the table for any denouement.
    I just hope those who are in favour of it, have the stomach for the images of bombed civilians' body parts littering the streets that will inevitably be posted on social media.
    Like already happens? That's why I'm in favour of it.
    What bombing civilians/ It's a no win situation...if we go in it will have a negligible impact in the war against IS...it's little more than political gesturing...the only way to defeat IS is with boots on the ground. Everyone knows that...
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,451
    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    DavidL said:

    My daughter is a better person than me. She thought it was sad too.

    Me, I think he deserves everything he gets.

    Should the very significant number of people who support him be completely without representation?

    Surely that is the core here. At least 25% of the British public agree completely with Corbyn. The Electoral System wants their opinion excised from the debate.

    The FPTP system is forcing politics where parties bend with the wind instead of taking a principle and trying to persuade and sell that to people. Multi-party politics is needed an Corbyn demonstrates that.
    I call bull. Where do you get the idea that at least a quarter of the public agree "completely" with Corbyn?

    A quarter of the public may not consider him completely crazy. A quarter may find him less repellant than they find Cameron. But a quarter agree "completely"? I don't think so.
    Then let us be certain.

    Let us offer the British people fully representative government instead of gerrymandered, broken voting where people get ignored even when tehy have a significant plurality of support.

    AMS offers all the proportionality of a proper electoral system while maintaining the (apparently) valued "local representative". A perfect system. Give it to the United Kingdom.

    Now.
    But the Uk people have shown no desire for such a system - if they had they would have voted LD or another party that proposed it.

  • FloaterFloater Posts: 5,488
    felix said:

    Ebola panic reaches the opposition?

    About as toxic to be fair.
  • O/T Well done to the West Ham fans and their Jihadi John chant.
  • O/T Well done to the West Ham fans and their Jihadi John chant.

    What was the chant?
  • glwglw Posts: 4,197

    What bombing civilians/ It's a no win situation...if we go in it will have a negligible impact in the war against IS...it's little more than political gesturing...the only way to defeat IS is with boots on the ground. Everyone knows that...

    If every country thought like that nobody would do anything and the likes of ISIS would prevail. To pinch a phrase from Tesco, every little helps.

  • One last comment on the defense review. It occurs to me that many here don't realise exactly how disastrous the Nimrod MRA4 was.

    The essential idea was to keep the old fuselage (heavily refurbished) and replace the wings.

    The new wings famously didn't fit. This was laughed off as part and parcel of using a 1950s plane - fits where it touches. But this touched on (ha) the fact that the original Comets were in fact badly built by De Havilands and a poor design. Many of the early crashes weren't due to metal fatigue, but simple poor design.

    Anyway, the other thing the new wings had was an increased sweep. This moved the centre of lift backwards. So the MRA4 would tend to dive unless corrected... So BAe installed a massive trim tab on the tail. In effect a permanent tip-the-nose-up.

    The only slight problem with that is that it meant that the fuselage of the MRA4 would be permanently under a bending strain in flight - together with vibration from the trim tab.

    The MOD air safety people discovered that BAe hadn't done proper fatigue calculations, or indeed proper stability calculations on the modified aircraft. The answer to those sums, when done was pretty horrifying. To add to the fun, the fuel system which caused an earlier Nimrod to explode in mid air was unchanged....

    The air safety people came to the conclusion that the MRA4 was not just unsafe, but that no practical redesign would make it so.

    I don't know why we just didn't start a new plane design from scratch.

    We can build bespoke supercarriers but not aircraft?
  • DavidL said:

    Haven't quite worked out what sort of impact, UK air strikes in Syria will have on IS - they're being bombed by the US, Russia and France already? What happens if it doesn't work...more importantly, what happens if it does? Assad can then target his forces on the other groups opposing him.

    There is no way our current level of commitment with 8 slightly elderly planes and our oh so careful rules of engagement is going to have a military impact. This is either a stepping stone to us being genuinely useful or buying a seat at the table for any denouement.
    I just hope those who are in favour of it, have the stomach for the images of bombed civilians' body parts littering the streets that will inevitably be posted on social media.
    Like already happens? That's why I'm in favour of it.
    What bombing civilians/ It's a no win situation...if we go in it will have a negligible impact in the war against IS...it's little more than political gesturing...the only way to defeat IS is with boots on the ground. Everyone knows that...
    Whether its negligible or not in your eyes it will have an impact. Bombing campaigns can and do make a major difference and given boots on the ground is a non-starter at the moment this is the next best option.

    It could indeed be argued that we could just let others take the burden of the cost but that is a very selfish proposal and should be stated as such.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Dair said:


    Thanks. I hadn't realised the redesign was that poor.

    One Conservative minister wanted to sue BAe. He was dissuaded by the fact that idiotic civil servants had signed off on the lunatic design - crippling any case. Plus the Lib Dems (strangely) wanted to protect BAe as a UK "Champion".

    That plus the carrier comedy has essentially killed alot BAe influence with the current government. Notice poor old Con Coughlin getting all upset in the Telegraph about their lost orders....
    It makes absolutely no sense to me why Public Sector contracts place the ENTIRE risk on the taxpayer and none of the rick on the private company.

    Surely all contracts should involve risk on both parties. When you see companies who bid low then "revise" the price and governments simply agree to pay the extra, the whole premise of Public Sector contracts is undermined.

    If a private company offers to build something for £10bn in a Public Sector contract then it should deliver exactly what is required for exactly £10bn and if it needs to spend more and make a loss, it should be the private company that pays the difference.
    I imagine that happens more often than you realise, it just doesn't get publicised that often as it isn't deemed newsworthy.
    While it might happen, and might not be publicised, surely it could be found somewhere on the internet. I have never, as yet, found an example.
  • This might explain the above picture

    Jeremy Corbyn will face an unprecedented Shadow Cabinet revolt over his opposition to war in Syria.

    Labour frontbenchers will seek to defy their leader and organise a whipped vote in favour of extending attacks on Islamic State.

    If successful it would leave peace campaigner Mr Corbyn in the position of having to rebel against the party he leads if he wishes to vote against war.

    “It sounds unlikely but it could happen - I think we have the numbers,” a source told the Mirror ahead of the weekly Shadow Cabinet meeting in Westminster.

    http://bit.ly/1OcnLiH
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    TGOHF said:

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    DavidL said:

    My daughter is a better person than me. She thought it was sad too.

    Me, I think he deserves everything he gets.

    Should the very significant number of people who support him be completely without representation?

    Surely that is the core here. At least 25% of the British public agree completely with Corbyn. The Electoral System wants their opinion excised from the debate.

    The FPTP system is forcing politics where parties bend with the wind instead of taking a principle and trying to persuade and sell that to people. Multi-party politics is needed an Corbyn demonstrates that.
    I call bull. Where do you get the idea that at least a quarter of the public agree "completely" with Corbyn?

    A quarter of the public may not consider him completely crazy. A quarter may find him less repellant than they find Cameron. But a quarter agree "completely"? I don't think so.
    Then let us be certain.

    Let us offer the British people fully representative government instead of gerrymandered, broken voting where people get ignored even when tehy have a significant plurality of support.

    AMS offers all the proportionality of a proper electoral system while maintaining the (apparently) valued "local representative". A perfect system. Give it to the United Kingdom.

    Now.
    But the Uk people have shown no desire for such a system - if they had they would have voted LD or another party that proposed it.

    They have never been offered such a system

    AV is a form of FPTP, it is neither proportional nor fair.
  • O/T Well done to the West Ham fans and their Jihadi John chant.

    What was the chant?
    http://www.comeonengland.org/2015/11/23/west-ham-fans-celebrate-death-of-isis-killer-jihad/
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 27,383
    edited November 2015

    This might explain the above picture

    Jeremy Corbyn will face an unprecedented Shadow Cabinet revolt over his opposition to war in Syria.

    Labour frontbenchers will seek to defy their leader and organise a whipped vote in favour of extending attacks on Islamic State.

    If successful it would leave peace campaigner Mr Corbyn in the position of having to rebel against the party he leads if he wishes to vote against war.

    “It sounds unlikely but it could happen - I think we have the numbers,” a source told the Mirror ahead of the weekly Shadow Cabinet meeting in Westminster.

    http://bit.ly/1OcnLiH

    We will see. How many times did we hear they were going to grow a backbone and get rid of Brown, then Miliband, and in the end nothing. Lots of talking to tough to a journo in the pub, but then no action.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,626

    Could you bear to listen to Cameron for more than 2 hours having to listen to his odious plummy old Etonian establishment accent without wanting to land a good right hook on the man?

    Yes? I know some people cannot bear Cameron's voice and or tone, but I don't get it, it's not as ridiculously plummy as you make it seem, and he's a serviceable speaker, it really is not that irritating. Corbyn has a good, authoritative voice of a different nature however, but I feel I could easily listen to him for a couple of hours as well if I had to.
  • notmenotme Posts: 2,371
    I think its the end game for Corbyn now.
  • One last comment on the defense review. It occurs to me that many here don't realise exactly how disastrous the Nimrod MRA4 was.

    The essential idea was to keep the old fuselage (heavily refurbished) and replace the wings.

    The new wings famously didn't fit. This was laughed off as part and parcel of using a 1950s plane - fits where it touches. But this touched on (ha) the fact that the original Comets were in fact badly built by De Havilands and a poor design. Many of the early crashes weren't due to metal fatigue, but simple poor design.

    Anyway, the other thing the new wings had was an increased sweep. This moved the centre of lift backwards. So the MRA4 would tend to dive unless corrected... So BAe installed a massive trim tab on the tail. In effect a permanent tip-the-nose-up.

    The only slight problem with that is that it meant that the fuselage of the MRA4 would be permanently under a bending strain in flight - together with vibration from the trim tab.

    The MOD air safety people discovered that BAe hadn't done proper fatigue calculations, or indeed proper stability calculations on the modified aircraft. The answer to those sums, when done was pretty horrifying. To add to the fun, the fuel system which caused an earlier Nimrod to explode in mid air was unchanged....

    The air safety people came to the conclusion that the MRA4 was not just unsafe, but that no practical redesign would make it so.

    I don't know why we just didn't start a new plane design from scratch.

    We can build bespoke supercarriers but not aircraft?
    How have you found the SDSR? I know Defence is one of your litmus tests on the government.
  • This might explain the above picture

    Jeremy Corbyn will face an unprecedented Shadow Cabinet revolt over his opposition to war in Syria.

    Labour frontbenchers will seek to defy their leader and organise a whipped vote in favour of extending attacks on Islamic State.

    If successful it would leave peace campaigner Mr Corbyn in the position of having to rebel against the party he leads if he wishes to vote against war.

    “It sounds unlikely but it could happen - I think we have the numbers,” a source told the Mirror ahead of the weekly Shadow Cabinet meeting in Westminster.

    http://bit.ly/1OcnLiH

    That's farcial.

    FWIW I think Labour's vote on this has ceased to be about Syria, now, and is more about Corbyn.
  • This might explain the above picture

    Jeremy Corbyn will face an unprecedented Shadow Cabinet revolt over his opposition to war in Syria.

    Labour frontbenchers will seek to defy their leader and organise a whipped vote in favour of extending attacks on Islamic State.

    If successful it would leave peace campaigner Mr Corbyn in the position of having to rebel against the party he leads if he wishes to vote against war.

    “It sounds unlikely but it could happen - I think we have the numbers,” a source told the Mirror ahead of the weekly Shadow Cabinet meeting in Westminster.

    http://bit.ly/1OcnLiH

    That would be displacement activity (though not a bad idea in and of itself). Outvoting Jeremy Corbyn in the shadow cabinet will simply confirm to his supporters that more power needs to be transferred to the membership.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Floater said:

    felix said:

    Ebola panic reaches the opposition?

    About as toxic to be fair.
    Jihadi John,
    He's f___ing dead,
    He had a bomb,
    Dropped on his head.

    Nothing quite as good as the Norwich Family.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    notme said:

    I think its the end game for Corbyn now.

    Fancy backing that up with a bet?
  • O/T Well done to the West Ham fans and their Jihadi John chant.

    What was the chant?
    http://www.comeonengland.org/2015/11/23/west-ham-fans-celebrate-death-of-isis-killer-jihad/
    Thanks
  • Dair said:

    Dair said:


    Thanks. I hadn't realised the redesign was that poor.

    One Conservative minister wanted to sue BAe. He was dissuaded by the fact that idiotic civil servants had signed off on the lunatic design - crippling any case. Plus the Lib Dems (strangely) wanted to protect BAe as a UK "Champion".

    That plus the carrier comedy has essentially killed alot BAe influence with the current government. Notice poor old Con Coughlin getting all upset in the Telegraph about their lost orders....
    It makes absolutely no sense to me why Public Sector contracts place the ENTIRE risk on the taxpayer and none of the rick on the private company.

    Surely all contracts should involve risk on both parties. When you see companies who bid low then "revise" the price and governments simply agree to pay the extra, the whole premise of Public Sector contracts is undermined.

    If a private company offers to build something for £10bn in a Public Sector contract then it should deliver exactly what is required for exactly £10bn and if it needs to spend more and make a loss, it should be the private company that pays the difference.
    I imagine that happens more often than you realise, it just doesn't get publicised that often as it isn't deemed newsworthy.
    While it might happen, and might not be publicised, surely it could be found somewhere on the internet. I have never, as yet, found an example.
    I have. The security for the 2012 Olympics.
  • glw said:

    What bombing civilians/ It's a no win situation...if we go in it will have a negligible impact in the war against IS...it's little more than political gesturing...the only way to defeat IS is with boots on the ground. Everyone knows that...

    If every country thought like that nobody would do anything and the likes of ISIS would prevail. To pinch a phrase from Tesco, every little helps.

    As I said...you CANNOT defeat IS from air strikes alone. Boots on the ground will defeat IS but politicians don't have the gumption to do it because it's electorally unpopular...politicians putting politics before lives
  • Dair said:

    TGOHF said:

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    DavidL said:

    My daughter is a better person than me. She thought it was sad too.

    Me, I think he deserves everything he gets.

    Should the very significant number of people who support him be completely without representation?

    Surely that is the core here. At least 25% of the British public agree completely with Corbyn. The Electoral System wants their opinion excised from the debate.

    The FPTP system is forcing politics where parties bend with the wind instead of taking a principle and trying to persuade and sell that to people. Multi-party politics is needed an Corbyn demonstrates that.
    I call bull. Where do you get the idea that at least a quarter of the public agree "completely" with Corbyn?

    A quarter of the public may not consider him completely crazy. A quarter may find him less repellant than they find Cameron. But a quarter agree "completely"? I don't think so.
    Then let us be certain.

    Let us offer the British people fully representative government instead of gerrymandered, broken voting where people get ignored even when tehy have a significant plurality of support.

    AMS offers all the proportionality of a proper electoral system while maintaining the (apparently) valued "local representative". A perfect system. Give it to the United Kingdom.

    Now.
    But the Uk people have shown no desire for such a system - if they had they would have voted LD or another party that proposed it.

    They have never been offered such a system

    AV is a form of FPTP, it is neither proportional nor fair.
    Wrong! They have been offered such a system in the Lib Dem manifesto in nearly every election for decades.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    One last comment on the defense review. It occurs to me that many here don't realise exactly how disastrous the Nimrod MRA4 was.

    The essential idea was to keep the old fuselage (heavily refurbished) and replace the wings.

    The new wings famously didn't fit. This was laughed off as part and parcel of using a 1950s plane - fits where it touches. But this touched on (ha) the fact that the original Comets were in fact badly built by De Havilands and a poor design. Many of the early crashes weren't due to metal fatigue, but simple poor design.

    Anyway, the other thing the new wings had was an increased sweep. This moved the centre of lift backwards. So the MRA4 would tend to dive unless corrected... So BAe installed a massive trim tab on the tail. In effect a permanent tip-the-nose-up.

    The only slight problem with that is that it meant that the fuselage of the MRA4 would be permanently under a bending strain in flight - together with vibration from the trim tab.

    The MOD air safety people discovered that BAe hadn't done proper fatigue calculations, or indeed proper stability calculations on the modified aircraft. The answer to those sums, when done was pretty horrifying. To add to the fun, the fuel system which caused an earlier Nimrod to explode in mid air was unchanged....

    The air safety people came to the conclusion that the MRA4 was not just unsafe, but that no practical redesign would make it so.

    I don't know why we just didn't start a new plane design from scratch.

    We can build bespoke supercarriers but not aircraft?
    Perhaps whoever held the patent on the original design had been elevated to the Lords and asked his friends to ensure he gained more royalties.

    The UK is a very corrupt state.
  • Dair said:

    DavidL said:

    My daughter is a better person than me. She thought it was sad too.

    Me, I think he deserves everything he gets.

    Should the very significant number of people who support him be completely without representation?

    Surely that is the core here. At least 25% of the British public agree completely with Corbyn. The Electoral System wants their opinion excised from the debate.

    The FPTP system is forcing politics where parties bend with the wind instead of taking a principle and trying to persuade and sell that to people. Multi-party politics is needed an Corbyn demonstrates that.
    I call bull. Where do you get the idea that at least a quarter of the public agree "completely" with Corbyn?

    A quarter of the public may not consider him completely crazy. A quarter may find him less repellant than they find Cameron. But a quarter agree "completely"? I don't think so.
    Another straw man.
    Having a bit of support in part to a degree or another does not qualify for leadership. The tough point about leadership is to take a decision on a matter to which there is really no answer.
This discussion has been closed.