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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Ex-LAB MP Nick Palmer says “Don’t underestimate the interes

SystemSystem Posts: 5,841
edited November 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Ex-LAB MP Nick Palmer says “Don’t underestimate the interest that MPs have in survival”

The current turbulence in Labour is part of a wider picture seen across the West. Simmering dissatisfaction with established parties and politicians is generating support for iconoclastic individuals and movements in nearly every country to an extent not seen for a long time.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Interesting
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 16,269
    Principles of course they have principles and if you don't like them,

    well they've got others.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 64,263
    edited November 2015
    Which is bigger

    1) The disconnect between the Lab MPs and Corbyn

    2) The disconnect between Lab MPs and the members

    3) The disconnect between Corbyn & Lab members and the wider electorate
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    From previous thread:

    I think a war between Russia and Turkey is close to inevitable now, they have traditionally fought a war on each other since 1700 every 30 years on average, the last one was 100 years ago so another one is overdue.
    Turkey is protected by NATO, however from the Russian view Turkey shot first and NATO covers it's members only if they are attacked not if they are the attackers, the first step I expect the russians to counterattack militarily on turkish targets or western targets in Syria if NATO suports Turkey.

    Anyway because of this I now have to switch against UK military action over Syria having been in favour since the UN resolution passed, Turkey has militarily attacked Russia in that powder keg of the middle east therefore western fighter jets can possibly become russian military targets and shot down as payback over the Turkish attack.

    Britain cannot afford a war with Russia, especially over Syria.
    The Russians will counterattack, I hope they limit it on Turkey only and not drag the rest of NATO in it, but that depends on NATO disavowing the Turkish attack at least politically.

    In any case Cameron's plan to bomb Syria is dead again, my apologies to Corbyn for doubting his judgement over this, Syria is too large of a powderkeg to get involved.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,303
    "Mad fanatics are a rarity"

    So Corbyn is rare?

    One thing to be grateful for.

  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''Britain cannot afford a war with Russia, especially over Syria.''

    Britain cannot afford a war. Period.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 16,269

    Which is bigger

    1) The disconnect between the Lab MPs and Corbyn

    2) The disconnect between Lab MPs and the members

    3) The disconnect between Corbyn & Lab members and the wider electorate

    The disconnect between Osborne and reality.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 43,033

    Which is bigger

    1) The disconnect between the Lab MPs and Corbyn

    2) The disconnect between Lab MPs and the members

    3) The disconnect between Corbyn & Lab members and the wider electorate

    3.
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,219

    Which is bigger

    1) The disconnect between the Lab MPs and Corbyn

    2) The disconnect between Lab MPs and the members

    3) The disconnect between Corbyn & Lab members and the wider electorate

    They're all ginormous and if NPXPM above is to be believed [sic] this is great news for the Tories. Rock on Corbyn!
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Which is bigger

    1) The disconnect between the Lab MPs and Corbyn

    2) The disconnect between Lab MPs and the members

    3) The disconnect between Corbyn & Lab members and the wider electorate

    Right now I choose No.1
    80-85% of Labour MP's will always hate Corbyn.

    But No.2 is not far behind.
    Around 80-85% of Labour MP's have a radically different political opinion than the majority of Labour members.

    No.3 is last due to the difference between the 30% that support Corbyn's views and the 60% that oppose is smaller that the ratio of Labour MP's to Corbyn and members.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 8,899
    Being more royalist than the king, isn't always a good route to political success. Not all of the Corbynites were helping Labour in May, much to the dismay of those who went out knocking on doors.

    Labour has painted itself into a corner, electing the holy fool, and they can't afford the luxury of opposition for another 9 years. They were pulverised in Scotland, the result in England was almost back to pre 1935 levels of support. Current polling would suggest that Corbyn would out perform in Miliband and Brown, taking Labour further out of sight and away from power.

    Playing the long game, remind me how many elections the Tories needed to undo their catastrophic defeat of 1997. Labour can't wait 18 years.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,974
    edited November 2015
    Interesting thread Mr Palmer, many thanks. – Nice to know Corbyn will be in situ come 2020.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 16,269
    dr_spyn said:

    Being more royalist than the king, isn't always a good route to political success. Not all of the Corbynites were helping Labour in May, much to the dismay of those who went out knocking on doors.

    Labour has painted itself into a corner, electing the holy fool, and they can't afford the luxury of opposition for another 9 years. They were pulverised in Scotland, the result in England was almost back to pre 1935 levels of support. Current polling would suggest that Corbyn would out perform in Miliband and Brown, taking Labour further out of sight and away from power.

    Playing the long game, remind me how many elections the Tories needed to undo their catastrophic defeat of 1997. Labour can't wait 18 years.

    The underlying problem they face is the more their core voters get in to the habit of not voting for them the easier it becomes to vote for someone else. Loyalty once lost is hard to regain.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited November 2015
    Desparing Dan http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/12013908/Under-Jeremy-Corbyn-Labour-is-now-a-mindless-cult.html
    Over the next few weeks Labour’s internal debate will narrow down to the following: should Labour listen to the voters, or should it listen to the members? It will rage for a while, and then someone will pop up and say “the truth is we have to do both”. At which point people will nod sagely, and say “that’s right. The voters. The members. It’s a false choice."

    It’s not a false choice. It is not actually a choice at all. If the Labour party continues to listen to those people who after the events of the last week believe Jeremy Corbyn is “doing a good job” then it’s over... Labour MPs have the following priorities > The voters come first. And Labour MPs work for the voters. They don’t work for you [members].
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 2,775
    edited November 2015
    This sentence at the end caught my attention:

    Politicians, generally, play the long game. In Britain, it’s often the only game in town.

    Politics is disastrously short term in the UK. The the ambition for the survival of an individual politician may be long term, in the eyes and actions of the politician.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 64,263
    edited November 2015

    Which is bigger

    1) The disconnect between the Lab MPs and Corbyn

    2) The disconnect between Lab MPs and the members

    3) The disconnect between Corbyn & Lab members and the wider electorate

    The disconnect between Osborne and reality.
    I refer the honourable gentleman to the point I made yesterday.

    When the prospect of Osborne no longer being Chancellor looked likely, the voters came out in force and gave Dave a majority to ensure Osborne remained Second Lord of the Treasury.

    Vox populi, vox Dei
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 16,269

    Which is bigger

    1) The disconnect between the Lab MPs and Corbyn

    2) The disconnect between Lab MPs and the members

    3) The disconnect between Corbyn & Lab members and the wider electorate

    The disconnect between Osborne and reality.
    I refer the honourable gentleman to the point I made yesterday.

    When the prospect of Osborne no longer being Chancellor looked likely, the voters came out in force and gave Dave a majority to ensure Osborne remained Second Lord of the Treasury.

    Vox populi, vox Dei
    Podex et maximus
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,219
    Hodges in the telegraph:

    At the same time a poll of national voting intentions was published. It showed the Conservative party have opened up a 12 point lead over Labour, a rise of 5 points from last month. This followed on a poll from the weekend that showed the Tories ahead by 15 points.

    Does anyone know which this poll is? Can't see it on the YG site.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,695
    FPT (in response to @NickPalmer):

    And what's coherent or attractive about what Corbyn is offering? Voting both for and against the same motion depending on the time of the month, abstaining on key matters like defence, having the party and leader take diametrically opposed positions, and being against the peace process in Northern Ireland.

    All those things you don't find attractive are designed to help real people. Small steps, maybe. Worthy - yes - but telling that you seem to imply that being worthy is not attractive. But above all focused on what politicians can do to help people. It may not be much but it's a lot better than someone focused on not sullying his precious principles with the reality of life as the rest of us live it, even to the extent of not being able to say in clear words that of course he would take all necessary action to stop maniacs slaughtering people on the streets of Britain.

    I mean how F**king hard would that have been?! And yet plain speaking principled Mr Corbyn could only come out with some tortuous paragraph about stopping maniacs getting hold of guns.
  • felix said:

    Hodges in the telegraph:

    At the same time a poll of national voting intentions was published. It showed the Conservative party have opened up a 12 point lead over Labour, a rise of 5 points from last month. This followed on a poll from the weekend that showed the Tories ahead by 15 points.

    Does anyone know which this poll is? Can't see it on the YG site.

    The ComRes phone poll for the Mail and The ComRes online poll for IOS/Sunday Mirror
  • http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34907983

    Turkish warplanes have shot down a Russian military aircraft on the border with Syria.

    Russian President Vladimir Putin said the Su-24 was hit by air-to-air missiles fired by Turkish F-16s while it was flying over Syrian territory.

    But Turkish military officials said the plane was engaged after being warned that it was violating Turkish airspace.

    Mr Putin described the incident as a "stab in the back" committed by "accomplices of terrorists".

    The crew ejected before the jet crashed in Latakia province, but Syrian rebels said at least one was dead.
  • @thehistoryguy: @almurray @chrisdeerin Alan Johnson is Cincinnatus, ploughing his rustic furrow, when a sweat-flecked messenger appears from distant Rome

    For Morris Dancer, if you need me to explain the above tweet I'll happy educate you on it later on today.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 16,269

    @thehistoryguy: @almurray @chrisdeerin Alan Johnson is Cincinnatus, ploughing his rustic furrow, when a sweat-flecked messenger appears from distant Rome

    For Morris Dancer, if you need me to explain the above tweet I'll happy educate you on it later on today.

    Did the messenger say Hannibal's in town tell Julius to put his dress on and ride to Bythinia ?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,429
    "the pressure of personal loyalty and continuing political careers will tend to dampen down apparently irretrievable differences"

    I can't work out whether this meant to be damning of all Labour MPs - or is just Mr Palmer trying to rationalise his own weather-cock actions of recent months...
  • This is why Ruth Davidson is awesome

    @RuthDavidsonMSP: Thought I'd try to Crowdfund 5k in a month. We're on course to hit target in a week. Thanks to everyone who's helped
    https://t.co/50R3QfdNtD

    @RuthDavidsonMSP: To be clear - as political crowdfunders seem under the spotlight at the moment - I have no access to the cash myself. #probity
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 43,033
    Decentralisation, infrastructure, small business-

    Sounds like a very decent prospectus for a party.

    Why does Nick dismiss such things ?!
  • FPT...

    This could get entertaining.....Putin accuses Turkey of supporting ISIS - yet the Russian jet was shot down in an area not controlled by ISIS......

    Crickey, that them fighting words.

    Edit: Did he says ISIS or as quoted by BBC, terrorists?
    According to Russia Today (who I'd regard as reliable on the words of Putin, if not much else):

    IS now not only receives revenue from the smuggling of oil, but also has the protection of a nation’s military, Putin said. This may explain why the terrorist group is so bold in taking acts of terrorism across the world,

    https://www.rt.com/news/323240-russia-turkey-warplane-downed/

    Edit - but the jet was shot down in an area not controlled by IS.....
    Yes - I think the two things are unrelated. I think Putin is just taking the chance to strongly criticise Turkey's actions supporting ISIS, of which there is now overwhelming evidence.

    My reading of the story is that Turkey has been extremely angered at Russia bombing the 'Turkmen' anti-Assad rebels in the area concerned. These people are of Turkish origin.

    Hence they lay in wait until Russia flew over a 'finger' of Turkish territory (you can see where it sticks out on the map), and planned to shoot the plane down. The Russians deny an incursion but I'm not sure I believe them. But on the other hand, looking at this slither of territory, the Russian plane would have been over it in seconds. There is no way that Turkey would have had time to scramble jets, let alone give the '10 warnings' it claims. Pilots landed over Syria too. It looks highly premediated.

    Turkey was evidently to me I) taking revenge and II) hoping that Russia would retaliate and provoke a bigger conflict.

    Oh, further to this, I've now read Russia has been making massive attacks on ISIS' Oil operation recently: https://www.rt.com/news/323065-syria-airstrikes-terrorists-russia/

    So Putin's implication would appear to be this was a revenge attack for putting a stop to Turkey's cut price oil racket.
  • "What do you do?
    ...
    A fourth is “set up a new party”, but we’ve seen where that tends to lead with FPTP – oblivion, and the end of your working life."

    How about a fifth.
    Agree an amicable divorce, split into two parties.
    Agree not to stand against each other via an electoral pact.
    Agree to a short reforming parliament with a limited number of reforms.
    Agree to implement Proportional Representation (preferably STV).
    After a year (say) hold a new election and may the best new party win.

    OK, it's a tall order, but all the other scenarios are pretty bleak for Labour. As others have noted not great for Britain either.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 35,300
    @JamieRoss7: Natalie McGarry is deleting comments about Women For Independence from her Facebook page. https://t.co/i1NHoVrdCH
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Forgotten what a great job Jezza is doing - scroll down halfway for a week by week reminder :lol: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/12013908/Under-Jeremy-Corbyn-Labour-is-now-a-mindless-cult.html
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,429
    Vermin Supreme filed in New Hampshire yesterday for the presidential primary. He said in his administration, every American will receive a pony. He also plans to defeat ISIS by going back in time. Oh, and he wears a large boot on his head.

    Nick, trust me, this guy is slightly less bonkers than Jeremy Corbyn.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermin_Supreme
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 19,299

    FPT...

    This could get entertaining.....Putin accuses Turkey of supporting ISIS - yet the Russian jet was shot down in an area not controlled by ISIS......

    Crickey, that them fighting words.

    Edit: Did he says ISIS or as quoted by BBC, terrorists?
    According to Russia Today (who I'd regard as reliable on the words of Putin, if not much else):

    IS now not only receives revenue from the smuggling of oil, but also has the protection of a nation’s military, Putin said. This may explain why the terrorist group is so bold in taking acts of terrorism across the world,

    https://www.rt.com/news/323240-russia-turkey-warplane-downed/

    Edit - but the jet was shot down in an area not controlled by IS.....
    Yes - I think the two things are unrelated. I think Putin is just taking the chance to strongly criticise Turkey's actions supporting ISIS, of which there is now overwhelming evidence.

    My reading of the story is that Turkey has been extremely angered at Russia bombing the 'Turkmen' anti-Assad rebels in the area concerned. These people are of Turkish origin.

    Hence they lay in wait until Russia flew over a 'finger' of Turkish territory (you can see where it sticks out on the map), and planned to shoot the plane down. The Russians deny an incursion but I'm not sure I believe them. But on the other hand, looking at this slither of territory, the Russian plane would have been over it in seconds. There is no way that Turkey would have had time to scramble jets, let alone give the '10 warnings' it claims. Pilots landed over Syria too. It looks highly premediated.

    Turkey was evidently to me I) taking revenge and II) hoping that Russia would retaliate and provoke a bigger conflict.

    Oh, further to this, I've now read Russia has been making massive attacks on ISIS' Oil operation recently: https://www.rt.com/news/323065-syria-airstrikes-terrorists-russia/

    So Putin's implication would appear to be this was a revenge attack for putting a stop to Turkey's cut price oil racket.
    Also from FPT:

    Or alternatively, Russian aircraft should not have overflown Turkish territory.

    Again. (If they did so this time, which is looking distinctly possible).

    Especially when those aircraft are of the same type as those from another combatant nation.

    You could easily argue the opposite: Putin wants to make Turkey the outsider, allowing his puppet Assad to mop up the areas of the country Putin wants ...
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 16,269

    FPT...

    This could get entertaining.....Putin accuses Turkey of supporting ISIS - yet the Russian jet was shot down in an area not controlled by ISIS......

    Crickey, that them fighting words.

    Edit: Did he says ISIS or as quoted by BBC, terrorists?
    According to Russia Today (who I'd regard as reliable on the words of Putin, if not much else):

    IS now not only receives revenue from the smuggling of oil, but also has the protection of a nation’s military, Putin said. This may explain why the terrorist group is so bold in taking acts of terrorism across the world,

    https://www.rt.com/news/323240-russia-turkey-warplane-downed/

    Edit - but the jet was shot down in an area not controlled by IS.....
    Yes - I think the two things are unrelated. I think Putin is just taking the chance to strongly criticise Turkey's actions supporting ISIS, of which there is now overwhelming evidence.

    My reading of the story is that Turkey has been extremely angered at Russia bombing the 'Turkmen' anti-Assad rebels in the area concerned. These people are of Turkish origin.

    Hence they lay in wait until Russia flew over a 'finger' of Turkish territory (you can see where it sticks out on the map), and planned to shoot the plane down. The Russians deny an incursion but I'm not sure I believe them. But on the other hand, looking at this slither of territory, the Russian plane would have been over it in seconds. There is no way that Turkey would have had time to scramble jets, let alone give the '10 warnings' it claims. Pilots landed over Syria too. It looks highly premediated.

    Turkey was evidently to me I) taking revenge and II) hoping that Russia would retaliate and provoke a bigger conflict.

    Oh, further to this, I've now read Russia has been making massive attacks on ISIS' Oil operation recently: https://www.rt.com/news/323065-syria-airstrikes-terrorists-russia/

    So Putin's implication would appear to be this was a revenge attack for putting a stop to Turkey's cut price oil racket.
    So we can expect Turkey to start shooting down US jets too ?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34906011
  • FPT...

    This could get entertaining.....Putin accuses Turkey of supporting ISIS - yet the Russian jet was shot down in an area not controlled by ISIS......

    Crickey, that them fighting words.

    Edit: Did he says ISIS or as quoted by BBC, terrorists?
    According to Russia Today (who I'd regard as reliable on the words of Putin, if not much else):

    IS now not only receives revenue from the smuggling of oil, but also has the protection of a nation’s military, Putin said. This may explain why the terrorist group is so bold in taking acts of terrorism across the world,

    https://www.rt.com/news/323240-russia-turkey-warplane-downed/

    Edit - but the jet was shot down in an area not controlled by IS.....
    Yes - I think the two things are unrelated. I think Putin is just taking the chance to strongly criticise Turkey's actions supporting ISIS, of which there is now overwhelming evidence.

    My reading of the story is that Turkey has been extremely angered at Russia bombing the 'Turkmen' anti-Assad rebels in the area concerned. These people are of Turkish origin.

    Hence they lay in wait until Russia flew over a 'finger' of Turkish territory (you can see where it sticks out on the map), and planned to shoot the plane down. The Russians deny an incursion but I'm not sure I believe them. But on the other hand, looking at this slither of territory, the Russian plane would have been over it in seconds. There is no way that Turkey would have had time to scramble jets, let alone give the '10 warnings' it claims. Pilots landed over Syria too. It looks highly premediated.

    Turkey was evidently to me I) taking revenge and II) hoping that Russia would retaliate and provoke a bigger conflict.

    Oh, further to this, I've now read Russia has been making massive attacks on ISIS' Oil operation recently: https://www.rt.com/news/323065-syria-airstrikes-terrorists-russia/

    So Putin's implication would appear to be this was a revenge attack for putting a stop to Turkey's cut price oil racket.
    Hatay Province used to be part of Syria, until 1938. We probably are familiar with it as the setting for the last act of "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade".
  • Survation not happy with The Sun

    Survation do not support or endorse the way in which this poll’s findings have been interpreted.
    Neither the headline nor the body text of articles published were discussed with or approved by Survation prior to publication. For reference, our own coverage and analysis can be found here:

    Furthermore, Survation categorically objects to the use of any of our findings by any group, as has happened elsewhere on social networks, to incite racial or religious tensions.

    In Conclusion.

    Our view remains that the most meaningful way to interpret the results of this polling is in the proper context alongside a comparable sample of non-muslims, as we did in March of this year using identical methodology and the same question wording.

    This comparison shows that “sympathy with” (distinct from “support for”) those travelling to fight in Syria (among any group) exists as a limited, minority view among both muslims and non-muslims, particularly among young people of both groups.

    Such comparative polling was reported in March in a balanced way by Sky News “Poll: Majority Have No Sympathy With Extremists” and was uncontroversial at the time, despite the fact that that poll found higher levels of "sympathy" as described.

    This latest poll in fact shows a fall in sympathy with fighters travelling to Syria among Muslims since March, something which we would consider the most pertinent new finding of that particular question.
  • Scott_P said:

    @JamieRoss7: Natalie McGarry is deleting comments about Women For Independence from her Facebook page. https://t.co/i1NHoVrdCH

    When will people learn that the internet never forgets...
  • FPT...

    This could get entertaining.....Putin accuses Turkey of supporting ISIS - yet the Russian jet was shot down in an area not controlled by ISIS......

    Crickey, that them fighting words.

    Edit: Did he says ISIS or as quoted by BBC, terrorists?
    According to Russia Today (who I'd regard as reliable on the words of Putin, if not much else):

    IS now not only receives revenue from the smuggling of oil, but also has the protection of a nation’s military, Putin said. This may explain why the terrorist group is so bold in taking acts of terrorism across the world,

    https://www.rt.com/news/323240-russia-turkey-warplane-downed/

    Edit - but the jet was shot down in an area not controlled by IS.....
    Yes - I think the two things are unrelated. I think Putin is just taking the chance to strongly criticise Turkey's actions supporting ISIS, of which there is now overwhelming evidence.

    My reading of the story is that Turkey has been extremely angered at Russia bombing the 'Turkmen' anti-Assad rebels in the area concerned. These people are of Turkish origin.

    Hence they lay in wait until Russia flew over a 'finger' of Turkish territory (you can see where it sticks out on the map), and planned to shoot the plane down. The Russians deny an incursion but I'm not sure I believe them. But on the other hand, looking at this slither of territory, the Russian plane would have been over it in seconds. There is no way that Turkey would have had time to scramble jets, let alone give the '10 warnings' it claims. Pilots landed over Syria too. It looks highly premediated.

    Turkey was evidently to me I) taking revenge and II) hoping that Russia would retaliate and provoke a bigger conflict.

    Oh, further to this, I've now read Russia has been making massive attacks on ISIS' Oil operation recently: https://www.rt.com/news/323065-syria-airstrikes-terrorists-russia/

    So Putin's implication would appear to be this was a revenge attack for putting a stop to Turkey's cut price oil racket.
    Also from FPT:

    Or alternatively, Russian aircraft should not have overflown Turkish territory.

    Again. (If they did so this time, which is looking distinctly possible).

    Especially when those aircraft are of the same type as those from another combatant nation.

    You could easily argue the opposite: Putin wants to make Turkey the outsider, allowing his puppet Assad to mop up the areas of the country Putin wants ...
    Josias "Erdogan" Jessop :lol:
  • This is why Ruth Davidson is awesome

    @RuthDavidsonMSP: Thought I'd try to Crowdfund 5k in a month. We're on course to hit target in a week. Thanks to everyone who's helped
    https://t.co/50R3QfdNtD

    @RuthDavidsonMSP: To be clear - as political crowdfunders seem under the spotlight at the moment - I have no access to the cash myself. #probity

    She must have been learning from the Lib Dems.

    I quote:

    "Edinburgh Central covers the heart of Scotland’s capital. ... The constituency is currently held by the SNP (by a wafer-thin margin), but with your help, we can spread Tory blue across the length and breadth of the Edinburgh Central seat."

    I was surprised to learn that Edinburgh Central was such a SNP/Tory marginal, so I checked out the last results....:

    SNP 9,480
    Labour 9,243
    Liberal Democrats 5,937
    Conservative 4,354

    Hm. Well, it IS wafer thin, I suppose...
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 35,300
    @joepike: .@NicolaSturgeon says she needs more information before taking action re Natalie McGarry MP.
  • On topic, so Labour MPs would put up with selling the country out to North Korea (or Rupert Murdoch or whoever) because it's too much trouble to do anything else?

    What's interesting in Nick's analysis - which I don't necessarily disagree with - is how little the voters feature in it. It's almost entirely internal. That's fine but those who define success in such insular terms often come a cropper when it's the electorate's turn.

    The unanswered question is what these MPs, who value their survival so highly, do when Labour keeps losing elections? Is upsetting the membership and the leadership worth it if the alternative is doom anyway?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 35,300
    @alexmassie: The thing you have to remember about the Corbynites is that they hate the Labour party. https://t.co/t5H0U5YnNN
  • http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34907983

    Turkish warplanes have shot down a Russian military aircraft on the border with Syria.

    Russian President Vladimir Putin said the Su-24 was hit by air-to-air missiles fired by Turkish F-16s while it was flying over Syrian territory.

    But Turkish military officials said the plane was engaged after being warned that it was violating Turkish airspace.

    Mr Putin described the incident as a "stab in the back" committed by "accomplices of terrorists".

    The crew ejected before the jet crashed in Latakia province, but Syrian rebels said at least one was dead.

    Have to feel for the crew. Seems like they ejected - only to land in rebel held territory and then be shot dead. (Only one appears confirmed dead at this stage)
  • DearPBDearPB Posts: 362
    It's a bold attempt from Mr Palmer to try and draw universal conclusions from the particular of the Labour Party's current travails, but it's ultimately unsuccessful. Trying to ask "How do Political Parties change" cannot distract from the uniqueness of the position that Labour now finds itself in.

    Political Parties have always changed their policies over time, often over a relatively short timescale and often successfully, with no surprise or disconnect from the public. Sometimes small groups of MPs and members sometimes accept that they're out of step with their party's mainstream on a particular issue but are in line with general principles enough that it is inconceivable that they could be anywhere else. Labour's trouble is twofold. A small group of very left wing Labour MPs but apparently a larger number of members increasingly began to feel during the Blair/Brown years that the general principles of the Party had changed and that they weren't sure that they did agree any more - and then they got elected to the Leadership.



  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,451
    edited November 2015
    A rather ironic thread.

    An ex MP who slavishly and sycophantically supported 2 dreadful Labour leaders whose unelectability resulted in candidates like him losing 2 back to back elections tells us that Labour MPs may be wise to slavishly and sycophantically support an even worse leader.

    What am I missing ?
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 4,290
    edited November 2015
    Ms Cyclefree,

    I think it was a clever move by Ms Kuenssberg to ask such a daft question as "if the worst came to the worst, would you authorise a shoot to kill policy by the police?" There's only one possible answer to that - and that's why its a daft question.

    Only to Jezza would it be a difficult question and obviously, she'd taken that into account. And she hit the jackpot. He could have said told her it was a silly question ... "Of course, there are circumstances where that was allowable but .." Then he could have gone on to go on to urge caution.

    She left a gigantic elephant trap for him and he blundered in. She must think he's the biggest idiot she's ever interviewed, And she's right.
  • This is why Ruth Davidson is awesome

    @RuthDavidsonMSP: Thought I'd try to Crowdfund 5k in a month. We're on course to hit target in a week. Thanks to everyone who's helped
    https://t.co/50R3QfdNtD

    @RuthDavidsonMSP: To be clear - as political crowdfunders seem under the spotlight at the moment - I have no access to the cash myself. #probity

    She must have been learning from the Lib Dems
    For avoidance of doubt, I do like Ruth and generally concur with the sentiment TSE!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 43,033
    edited November 2015

    FPT...

    This could get entertaining.....Putin accuses Turkey of supporting ISIS - yet the Russian jet was shot down in an area not controlled by ISIS......

    Crickey, that them fighting words.

    Edit: Did he says ISIS or as quoted by BBC, terrorists?
    According to Russia Today (who I'd regard as reliable on the words of Putin, if not much else):

    IS now not only receives revenue from the smuggling of oil, but also has the protection of a nation’s military, Putin said. This may explain why the terrorist group is so bold in taking acts of terrorism across the world,

    https://www.rt.com/news/323240-russia-turkey-warplane-downed/

    Edit - but the jet was shot down in an area not controlled by IS.....
    Yes - I think the two things are unrelated. I think Putin is just taking the chance to strongly criticise Turkey's actions supporting ISIS, of which there is now overwhelming evidence.

    My reading of the story is that Turkey has been extremely angered at Russia bombing the 'Turkmen' anti-Assad rebels in the area concerned. These people are of Turkish origin.

    Hence they lay in wait until Russia flew over a 'finger' of Turkish territory (you can see where it sticks out on the map), and planned to shoot the plane down. The Russians deny an incursion but I'm not sure I believe them. But on the other hand, looking at this slither of territory, the Russian plane would have been over it in seconds. There is no way that Turkey would have had time to scramble jets, let alone give the '10 warnings' it claims. Pilots landed over Syria too. It looks highly premediated.

    Turkey was evidently to me I) taking revenge and II) hoping that Russia would retaliate and provoke a bigger conflict.

    Oh, further to this, I've now read Russia has been making massive attacks on ISIS' Oil operation recently: https://www.rt.com/news/323065-syria-airstrikes-terrorists-russia/

    So Putin's implication would appear to be this was a revenge attack for putting a stop to Turkey's cut price oil racket.
    Also from FPT:

    Or alternatively, Russian aircraft should not have overflown Turkish territory.

    Again. (If they did so this time, which is looking distinctly possible).

    Especially when those aircraft are of the same type as those from another combatant nation.

    You could easily argue the opposite: Putin wants to make Turkey the outsider, allowing his puppet Assad to mop up the areas of the country Putin wants ...
    I'd have thought invading Turkey would be the last thing on Assad's mind, seeing as he doesn't even have control of Raqqa; Aleppo, and is fighting to keep control of Damascus.
  • I completely understand where Nick Palmer is coming from in his post. However, too many MPs are already openly defying the leadership and too many members are already aggressively attacking disaffected MPs. They are not going to subside by themselves - an act of resolution will be required if they are to rub along together under Jeremy Corbyn's leadership. I can't see what that act of resolution would look like.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34907983

    Turkish warplanes have shot down a Russian military aircraft on the border with Syria.

    Russian President Vladimir Putin said the Su-24 was hit by air-to-air missiles fired by Turkish F-16s while it was flying over Syrian territory.

    But Turkish military officials said the plane was engaged after being warned that it was violating Turkish airspace.

    Mr Putin described the incident as a "stab in the back" committed by "accomplices of terrorists".

    The crew ejected before the jet crashed in Latakia province, but Syrian rebels said at least one was dead.

    Have to feel for the crew. Seems like they ejected - only to land in rebel held territory and then be shot dead. (Only one appears confirmed dead at this stage)
    That was only to be expected, regardless of who downed that aircraft.

    The UK should steer well clear of Syria.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 27,383
    edited November 2015
    CD13 said:

    Ms Cyclefree,

    I think it was a clever move by Ms Kuenssberg to ask such a daft question as "if the worst came to the worst, would you authorise a shoot to kill policy by the police?" There's only one possible answer to that - and that's why its a daft question.

    Only to Jezza would it be a difficult question and obviously, she'd taken that into account. And she hit the jackpot. He could have said told her it was a silly question ... "Of course, there are circumstances where that was allowable but .." Then he could have gone on to go on to urge caution.

    She left a gigantic elephant trap for him and he blundered in. She must think he's the biggest idiot she's ever interviewed, And she's right.

    He is in a weird way the living, breathing, talking, embodiment of the classic critical example of what is wrong with the grammar school system, which having been through himself, he despises as unfair and ineffective.

    Some poor kid, who was much brighter than him, more than likely missed out on a place at the same school.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    This is why Ruth Davidson is awesome

    @RuthDavidsonMSP: Thought I'd try to Crowdfund 5k in a month. We're on course to hit target in a week. Thanks to everyone who's helped
    https://t.co/50R3QfdNtD

    @RuthDavidsonMSP: To be clear - as political crowdfunders seem under the spotlight at the moment - I have no access to the cash myself. #probity

    She must have been learning from the Lib Dems.

    I quote:

    "Edinburgh Central covers the heart of Scotland’s capital. ... The constituency is currently held by the SNP (by a wafer-thin margin), but with your help, we can spread Tory blue across the length and breadth of the Edinburgh Central seat."

    I was surprised to learn that Edinburgh Central was such a SNP/Tory marginal, so I checked out the last results....:

    SNP 9,480
    Labour 9,243
    Liberal Democrats 5,937
    Conservative 4,354

    Hm. Well, it IS wafer thin, I suppose...
    There is a possibility the Tories could come in third.
  • CD13 said:

    Ms Cyclefree,

    I think it was a clever move by Ms Kuenssberg to ask such a daft question as "if the worst came to the worst, would you authorise a shoot to kill policy by the police?" There's only one possible answer to that - and that's why its a daft question.

    Only to Jezza would it be a difficult question and obviously, she'd taken that into account. And she hit the jackpot. He could have said told her it was a silly question ... "Of course, there are circumstances where that was allowable but .." Then he could have gone on to go on to urge caution.

    She left a gigantic elephant trap for him and he blundered in. She must think he's the biggest idiot she's ever interviewed, And she's right.

    He is in a weird way the living, breathing, talking, embodiment of the classic critical example of what is wrong with the grammar school system, which having been through himself, he despises as unfair and ineffective.
    I went to Grammar School too, you know!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 27,383
    edited November 2015

    CD13 said:

    Ms Cyclefree,

    I think it was a clever move by Ms Kuenssberg to ask such a daft question as "if the worst came to the worst, would you authorise a shoot to kill policy by the police?" There's only one possible answer to that - and that's why its a daft question.

    Only to Jezza would it be a difficult question and obviously, she'd taken that into account. And she hit the jackpot. He could have said told her it was a silly question ... "Of course, there are circumstances where that was allowable but .." Then he could have gone on to go on to urge caution.

    She left a gigantic elephant trap for him and he blundered in. She must think he's the biggest idiot she's ever interviewed, And she's right.

    He is in a weird way the living, breathing, talking, embodiment of the classic critical example of what is wrong with the grammar school system, which having been through himself, he despises as unfair and ineffective.
    I went to Grammar School too, you know!
    And I presume you did a bit better than getting 2 E's in your A-Levels :-) Not sure what his excuse was after going to one of the best non-fee paying schools in the country, being thick is probably the answer.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 21,371
    edited November 2015
    "Labour increasingly nervous about Oldham West and Royton by-election

    No MP who has been there has anything positive to say about what they’ve seen, other than that their candidate, Jim McMahon, is hugely impressive. Some Labourites with a good knowledge of the seat are worried that the party may do well in postal votes, but perform poorly on polling day itself. ‘It therefore depends on us having a sophisticated postal vote operation in order to win,’ says one source."


    http://blogs.new.spectator.co.uk/2015/11/labour-nerves-build-about-oldham-west-and-royton-by-election/
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 25,857
    edited November 2015
    Scott_P said:

    @alexmassie: The thing you have to remember about the Corbynites is that they hate the Labour party. https://t.co/t5H0U5YnNN

    The way I see it, the Labour Party was founded by Socialists. Socialists got their party back on September 12th.

    But - it doesn't necessarily mean that's a good thing!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 19,299

    osias "Erdogan" Jessop :lol:

    Sunil "Wrong" Prasannan ;)

    BTW, I dislike Erdogan. I shouldn't really need to say that, but the more frenetic on here need to be reminded occasionally ...
  • dr_spyn said:

    Being more royalist than the king, isn't always a good route to political success. Not all of the Corbynites were helping Labour in May, much to the dismay of those who went out knocking on doors.

    Labour has painted itself into a corner, electing the holy fool, and they can't afford the luxury of opposition for another 9 years. They were pulverised in Scotland, the result in England was almost back to pre 1935 levels of support. Current polling would suggest that Corbyn would out perform in Miliband and Brown, taking Labour further out of sight and away from power.

    Playing the long game, remind me how many elections the Tories needed to undo their catastrophic defeat of 1997. Labour can't wait 18 years.

    Playing the speculation game and assuming labour remain moribund in Scotland and were to lose badly in England and Wales, then even this would not necessarily translate into a defeat for corbynism.
    A corbynist party with even as low as 150 seats would be a triumph given its lunatic policies. Why would Corbyn resign even then? Why would even age cause him to resign Thank's to him his clique have their hands on labour power. With any luck for them an election defeat would sweep away the moderates, and that's before boundary changes and deselections.
    He would stay until a replacement version of him can be promoted forward for his cultist followers to elect.
    How could this cult collapse? Money. Or rather lack of it. And only if serious money could be raised d to oppose it could be expect an alternative.
  • FPT...

    This could get entertaining.....Putin accuses Turkey of supporting ISIS - yet the Russian jet was shot down in an area not controlled by ISIS......

    Crickey, that them fighting words.

    Edit: Did he says ISIS or as quoted by BBC, terrorists?
    According to Russia Today (who I'd regard as reliable on the words of Putin, if not much else):

    IS now not only receives revenue from the smuggling of oil, but also has the protection of a nation’s military, Putin said. This may explain why the terrorist group is so bold in taking acts of terrorism across the world,

    https://www.rt.com/news/323240-russia-turkey-warplane-downed/

    Edit - but the jet was shot down in an area not controlled by IS.....
    Hence they lay in wait until Russia flew over a 'finger' of Turkish territory (you can see where it sticks out on the map), and planned to shoot the plane down. The Russians deny an incursion but I'm not sure I believe them. But on the other hand, looking at this slither of territory, the Russian plane would have been over it in seconds. There is no way that Turkey would have had time to scramble jets, let alone give the '10 warnings' it claims. Pilots landed over Syria too. It looks highly premediated.

    Turkey was evidently to me I) taking revenge and II) hoping that Russia would retaliate and provoke a bigger conflict.

    Oh, further to this, I've now read Russia has been making massive attacks on ISIS' Oil operation recently: https://www.rt.com/news/323065-syria-airstrikes-terrorists-russia/

    So Putin's implication would appear to be this was a revenge attack for putting a stop to Turkey's cut price oil racket.
    Also from FPT:

    Or alternatively, Russian aircraft should not have overflown Turkish territory.

    Again. (If they did so this time, which is looking distinctly possible).

    Especially when those aircraft are of the same type as those from another combatant nation.

    You could easily argue the opposite: Putin wants to make Turkey the outsider, allowing his puppet Assad to mop up the areas of the country Putin wants ...
    "Ιf Greece had downed every Turkish aircraft for THAT level of airspace violation, today Turkey would only fly kites."

    A Greek's response to Turkey's claim of overflight of Turkish airspace.

    Time to suspend NATO membership of Turkey? If we had done that before then the Turks would likely not have done this.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    FPT...

    This could get entertaining.....Putin accuses Turkey of supporting ISIS - yet the Russian jet was shot down in an area not controlled by ISIS......





    Edit - but the jet was shot down in an area not controlled by IS.....
    Turkey was evidently to me I) taking revenge and II) hoping that Russia would retaliate and provoke a bigger conflict.

    Oh, further to this, I've now read Russia has been making massive attacks on ISIS' Oil operation recently: https://www.rt.com/news/323065-syria-airstrikes-terrorists-russia/

    So Putin's implication would appear to be this was a revenge attack for putting a stop to Turkey's cut price oil racket.

    You could easily argue the opposite: Putin wants to make Turkey the outsider, allowing his puppet Assad to mop up the areas of the country Putin wants ...

    FPT...

    This could get entertaining.....Putin accuses Turkey of supporting ISIS - yet the Russian jet was shot down in an area not controlled by ISIS......

    Crickey, that them fighting words.

    Edit: Did he says ISIS or as quoted by BBC, terrorists?


    Edit - but the jet was shot down in an area not controlled by IS.....





    So Putin's implication would appear to be this was a revenge attack for putting a stop to Turkey's cut price oil racket.
    Also from FPT:

    Or alternatively, Russian aircraft should not have overflown Turkish territory.

    Again. (If they did so this time, which is looking distinctly possible).

    Especially when those aircraft are of the same type as those from another combatant nation.

    You could easily argue the opposite: Putin wants to make Turkey the outsider, allowing his puppet Assad to mop up the areas of the country Putin wants ...
    Do you have proof that the Russian aircraft overflew Turkish territory or are you accepting Erdogan's word ? If a different Russian aircraft overflew does not mean this one should be shot down.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''Labour increasingly nervous about Oldham West and Royton by-election"

    From the pie chart I saw on the last thread, the tory vote could be important.

    Dave must have mixed feelings.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,695
    CD13 said:

    Ms Cyclefree,

    I think it was a clever move by Ms Kuenssberg to ask such a daft question as "if the worst came to the worst, would you authorise a shoot to kill policy by the police?" There's only one possible answer to that - and that's why its a daft question.

    Only to Jezza would it be a difficult question and obviously, she'd taken that into account. And she hit the jackpot. He could have said told her it was a silly question ... "Of course, there are circumstances where that was allowable but .." Then he could have gone on to go on to urge caution.

    She left a gigantic elephant trap for him and he blundered in. She must think he's the biggest idiot she's ever interviewed, And she's right.

    Sometimes asking the obvious question is precisely what is needed. You may think that the answer is obvious. And that's why people don't ask the obvious question. Because they assume they will get the obvious answer and so there's no point.

    But it's amazing how often you don't get the obvious answer and how revealing the answers you do get are.

  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 4,413
    edited November 2015
    TGOHF said:

    A rather ironic thread.

    An ex MP who slavishly and sycophantically supported 2 dreadful Labour leaders whose unelectability resulted in candidates like him losing 2 back to back elections tells us that Labour MPs may be wise to slavishly and sycophantically support an even worse leader.

    What am I missing ?

    What a load of rubbish. Blair shares with Maggie the honour of being the most successful main party leaders ever. They both fought 3 elections as leader and both won working majorities.

    Nick's failure to continue as an MP followed the booting out of Blair.

    Please get basic facts right.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 7,366
    edited November 2015

    FPT...

    This could get entertaining.....Putin accuses Turkey of supporting ISIS - yet the Russian jet was shot down in an area not controlled by ISIS......

    Crickey, that them fighting words.

    Edit: Did he says ISIS or as quoted by BBC, terrorists?
    According to Russia Today (who I'd regard as reliable on the words of Putin, if not much else):

    IS now not only receives revenue from the smuggling of oil, but also has the protection of a nation’s military, Putin said. This may explain why the terrorist group is so bold in taking acts of terrorism across the world,

    https://www.rt.com/news/323240-russia-turkey-warplane-downed/

    Edit - but the jet was shot down in an area not controlled by IS.....
    Yes - I think the two things are unrelated. I think Putin is just taking the chance to strongly criticise Turkey's actions supporting ISIS, of which there is now overwhelming evidence.

    My reading of the story is that Turkey has been extremely angered at Russia bombing the 'Turkmen' anti-Assad rebels in the area concerned. These people are of Turkish origin.

    Hence they lay in wait until Russia flew over a 'finger' of Turkish territory (you can see where it sticks out on the map), and planned to shoot the plane down. The Russians deny an incursion but I'm not sure I believe them. But on the other hand, looking at this slither of territory, the Russian plane would have been over it in seconds. There is no way that Turkey would have had time to scramble jets, let alone give the '10 warnings' it claims. Pilots landed over Syria too. It looks highly premediated.

    Turkey was evidently to me I) taking revenge and II) hoping that Russia would retaliate and provoke a bigger conflict.

    Oh, further to this, I've now read Russia has been making massive attacks on ISIS' Oil operation recently: https://www.rt.com/news/323065-syria-airstrikes-terrorists-russia/

    So Putin's implication would appear to be this was a revenge attack for putting a stop to Turkey's cut price oil racket.
    So we can expect Turkey to start shooting down US jets too ?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34906011
    I'd take that with a pinch of salt - the fact that PBS had to illustrate its news peice on the US blowing up ISIS oil infrastructure with footage of Russian bombers doing so doesn't inspire confidence: https://www.rt.com/usa/323070-pbs-isis-video-russian/

    It also begs the question of why they were allowing such activities to continue unhindered for the past 13 months.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Survation explains the Sun's headlines on Moslems polled:
    http://us1.campaign-archive2.com/?u=e17762efe2cccb1f0ed943c1f&id=fbe2f0c637&e=50c0187e78
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 19,299
    Pulpstar said:

    I'd have thought invading Turkey would be the last thing on Assad's mind, seeing as he doesn't even have control of Raqqa; Aleppo, and is fighting to keep control of Damascus.

    Of course Assad doesn't want to 'invade' Turkey; I was talking about the parts of Syria.

    Remember, two Syrian aircraft were shot down in previous years for going over the Turkish border.

    Why would Turkey shoot them down? Because the last thing they want are unknown foreign combat planes flying out of a war zone into their country. Not only does it break their sovereignty, as they're warplanes, they could bomb anywhere, whether on purpose or accidentally (if they're so off course as to overfly the wrong country, their bomb aiming might be similarly askew).

    What do you expect Turkey to do in that situation?

    (This all presupposes that the plane did overfly Turkey).
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    TGOHF said:

    A rather ironic thread.

    An ex MP who slavishly and sycophantically supported 2 dreadful Labour leaders whose unelectability resulted in candidates like him losing 2 back to back elections tells us that Labour MPs may be wise to slavishly and sycophantically support an even worse leader.

    What am I missing ?

    What a load of rubbish. Blair shares with Maggie the honour of being the most successful main party leaders ever. They both fought 3 elections as leader and both won working majorities.

    Nick's failure to continue as an MP followed the booting out of Blair.

    Please get basic facts right.
    Brown and Miliband?
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 8,899
    Graeme Demianyk ‏@GraemeDemianyk 1m1 minute ago
    Labour's @JWoodcockMP really going for it with the SNP on Trident: "I would be happy to take on every one of you robots."
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited November 2015
    The first steps in the "Stab in the back" war is taken:
    EDIT.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 16,269

    FPT...

    This could get entertaining.....Putin accuses Turkey of supporting ISIS - yet the Russian jet was shot down in an area not controlled by ISIS......

    Crickey, that them fighting words.

    Edit: Did he says ISIS or as quoted by BBC, terrorists?
    According to Russia Today (who I'd regard as reliable on the words of Putin, if not much else):

    IS now not only receives revenue from the smuggling of oil, but also has the protection of a nation’s military, Putin said. This may explain why the terrorist group is so bold in taking acts of terrorism across the world,

    https://www.rt.com/news/323240-russia-turkey-warplane-downed/

    Edit - but the jet was shot down in an area not controlled by IS.....
    Yes - I think the two things are unrelated. I think Putin is just taking the chance to strongly criticise Turkey's actions supporting ISIS, of which there is now overwhelming evidence.

    My reading of the story is that Turkey has been extremely angered at Russia bombing the 'Turkmen' anti-Assad rebels in the area concerned. These people are of Turkish origin.


    Oh, further to this, I've now read Russia has been making massive attacks on ISIS' Oil operation recently: https://www.rt.com/news/323065-syria-airstrikes-terrorists-russia/

    So Putin's implication would appear to be this was a revenge attack for putting a stop to Turkey's cut price oil racket.
    So we can expect Turkey to start shooting down US jets too ?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34906011
    I'd take that with a pinch of salt - the fact that PBS had to illustrate its news peice on the US blowing up ISIS oil infrastructure with footage of Russian bombers doing so doesn't inspire confidence: https://www.rt.com/usa/323070-pbs-isis-video-russian/

    It also begs the question of why they were allowing such activities to continue unhindered for the past 13 months.
    So you're saying they didn't attack the tankers then ?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 21,371
    edited November 2015
    O/T:

    The latest PC madness — yoga is racist and a form of "cultural appropriation"

    http://blogs.new.spectator.co.uk/2015/11/this-obsession-with-cultural-appropriation-is-leading-us-down-a-very-dark-path/
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 19,299
    surbiton said:

    Do you have proof that the Russian aircraft overflew Turkish territory or are you accepting Erdogan's word ? If a different Russian aircraft overflew does not mean this one should be shot down.

    I've said all along *if* it happened.

    But remember that the Russians have apologised in the recent months for overflying Turkey, including planes allegedly locking on to Turkish planes:

    http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20151005/1028036764/russia-turkey-airspace-border-violation.html
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/06/nato-chief-jens-stoltenberg-russia-turkish-airspace-violations-syria

    Therefore there is precedent. Also, at this early stage the Turkish flight plan seems more persuasive than the Russian picture released. Both might be accurate (they need not be inconsistent), or one or both faked or inaccurate.

    As for why shoot it down: see my previous post. The last thing a country wants is an unknown foreign aircraft flying over your border without permission from a war zone.

    This was bound to happen: some on here (including me) have been warning about it for ages. There was a scare a few weeks ago that turned out to be just a rumour.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 25,857
    edited November 2015
    LondonBob said:

    FPT...

    This could get entertaining.....Putin accuses Turkey of supporting ISIS - yet the Russian jet was shot down in an area not controlled by ISIS......

    Crickey, that them fighting words.

    Edit: Did he says ISIS or as quoted by BBC, terrorists?
    According to Russia Today (who I'd regard as reliable on the words of Putin, if not much else):

    IS now not only receives revenue from the smuggling of oil, but also has the protection of a nation’s military, Putin said. This may explain why the terrorist group is so bold in taking acts of terrorism across the world,

    https://www.rt.com/news/323240-russia-turkey-warplane-downed/

    Edit - but the jet was shot down in an area not controlled by IS.....
    Hence they lay in wait until Russia flew over a 'finger' of Turkish territory (you can see where it sticks out on the map), and planned to shoot the plane down. The Russians deny an incursion but I'm not sure I believe them. But on the other hand, looking at this slither of territory, the Russian plane would have been over it in seconds. There is no way that Turkey would have had time to scramble jets, let alone give the '10 warnings' it claims. Pilots landed over Syria too. It looks highly premediated.

    Turkey was evidently to me I) taking revenge and II) hoping that Russia would retaliate and provoke a bigger conflict.

    Oh, further to this, I've now read Russia has been making massive attacks on ISIS' Oil operation recently: https://www.rt.com/news/323065-syria-airstrikes-terrorists-russia/

    So Putin's implication would appear to be this was a revenge attack for putting a stop to Turkey's cut price oil racket.
    Also from FPT:

    Or alternatively, Russian aircraft should not have overflown Turkish territory.

    Again. (If they did so this time, which is looking distinctly possible).

    Especially when those aircraft are of the same type as those from another combatant nation.

    You could easily argue the opposite: Putin wants to make Turkey the outsider, allowing his puppet Assad to mop up the areas of the country Putin wants ...
    "Ιf Greece had downed every Turkish aircraft for THAT level of airspace violation, today Turkey would only fly kites."

    A Greek's response to Turkey's claim of overflight of Turkish airspace.

    Time to suspend NATO membership of Turkey? If we had done that before then the Turks would likely not have done this.
    Remember, The Caliphate was based in Turkey until 1924...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Caliphate
  • From last thread

    HopiSen said:



    This is a deceptively attractive argument, but it's self-justification. The other candidates at the leadership election all put forward such policies - whether it was Liz on early years and decentralisation, or Yvette on Infrastructure/investment/childcare or Andy on supporting small business and improving opportunities for those who didn't go to university.

    It's just that Corbyn supporters preferred what he was offering, and derided the alternatives as empty.

    To argue that 'Centrists' need to offer members such policies just after having rejected them in favour of something more radical is merely refusing to take responsibility for your own choices.

    Decentralisation, infrastructure, small business- they're all worthy things, but they don't make a coherent, attractive project. Sorry - they just don't!
    That's a shame, because each of them featured prominently in Corbyn's speech on what would be his political agenda as leader at the weekend. Sorry to hear you have been disillusioned so rapidly.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Arf
    HopiSen said:

    From last thread

    HopiSen said:



    This is a deceptively attractive argument, but it's self-justification. The other candidates at the leadership election all put forward such policies - whether it was Liz on early years and decentralisation, or Yvette on Infrastructure/investment/childcare or Andy on supporting small business and improving opportunities for those who didn't go to university.

    It's just that Corbyn supporters preferred what he was offering, and derided the alternatives as empty.

    To argue that 'Centrists' need to offer members such policies just after having rejected them in favour of something more radical is merely refusing to take responsibility for your own choices.

    Decentralisation, infrastructure, small business- they're all worthy things, but they don't make a coherent, attractive project. Sorry - they just don't!
    That's a shame, because each of them featured prominently in Corbyn's speech on what would be his political agenda as leader at the weekend. Sorry to hear you have been disillusioned so rapidly.
  • TGOHF said:

    A rather ironic thread.

    An ex MP who slavishly and sycophantically supported 2 dreadful Labour leaders whose unelectability resulted in candidates like him losing 2 back to back elections tells us that Labour MPs may be wise to slavishly and sycophantically support an even worse leader.

    What am I missing ?

    What a load of rubbish. Blair shares with Maggie the honour of being the most successful main party leaders ever. They both fought 3 elections as leader and both won working majorities.

    Nick's failure to continue as an MP followed the booting out of Blair.

    Please get basic facts right.
    I think TGOHF meant Brown and Miliband, no?
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806

    FPT...

    This could get entertaining.....Putin accuses Turkey of supporting ISIS - yet the Russian jet was shot down in an area not controlled by ISIS......

    Crickey, that them fighting words.

    Edit: Did he says ISIS or as quoted by BBC, terrorists?
    According to Russia Today (who I'd regard as reliable on the words of Putin, if not much else):

    IS now not only receives revenue from the smuggling of oil, but also has the protection of a nation’s military, Putin said. This may explain why the terrorist group is so bold in taking acts of terrorism across the world,

    https://www.rt.com/news/323240-russia-turkey-warplane-downed/

    Edit - but the jet was shot down in an area not controlled by IS.....
    Yes - I think the two things are unrelated. I think Putin is just taking the chance to strongly criticise Turkey's actions supporting ISIS, of which there is now overwhelming evidence.

    My reading of the story is that Turkey has been extremely angered at Russia bombing the 'Turkmen' anti-Assad rebels in the area concerned. These people are of Turkish origin.


    Oh, further to this, I've now read Russia has been making massive attacks on ISIS' Oil operation recently: https://www.rt.com/news/323065-syria-airstrikes-terrorists-russia/

    So Putin's implication would appear to be this was a revenge attack for putting a stop to Turkey's cut price oil racket.
    So we can expect Turkey to start shooting down US jets too ?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34906011
    I'd take that with a pinch of salt - the fact that PBS had to illustrate its news peice on the US blowing up ISIS oil infrastructure with footage of Russian bombers doing so doesn't inspire confidence: https://www.rt.com/usa/323070-pbs-isis-video-russian/

    It also begs the question of why they were allowing such activities to continue unhindered for the past 13 months.
    So you're saying they didn't attack the tankers then ?
    I have read that the Americans were concerned that the tankers are being driven by hired "civilian" drivers, not by jihadists, and therefore some concern about deaths of "innocents".

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 19,299
    LondonBob said:

    "Ιf Greece had downed every Turkish aircraft for THAT level of airspace violation, today Turkey would only fly kites."

    A Greek's response to Turkey's claim of overflight of Turkish airspace.

    Time to suspend NATO membership of Turkey? If we had done that before then the Turks would likely not have done this.

    Are you talking about the disputed Aegean areas?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_dispute#Turkish_Military_overflights

    If so, it it easy to see the problems with your argument, and also why it is a very different matter. Even then accidents do occur, as in 2006.

    But that's very different from an unknown plane entering an undisputed area of a country from an active, hot war zone.
  • FPT...

    This could get entertaining.....Putin accuses Turkey of supporting ISIS - yet the Russian jet was shot down in an area not controlled by ISIS......

    Crickey, that them fighting words.

    Edit: Did he says ISIS or as quoted by BBC, terrorists?
    According to Russia Today (who I'd regard as reliable on the words of Putin, if not much else):

    IS now not only receives revenue from the smuggling of oil, but also has the protection of a nation’s military, Putin said. This may explain why the terrorist group is so bold in taking acts of terrorism across the world,

    https://www.rt.com/news/323240-russia-turkey-warplane-downed/

    Edit - but the jet was shot down in an area not controlled by IS.....
    Yes - I think the two things are unrelated. I think Putin is just taking the chance to strongly criticise Turkey's actions supporting ISIS, of which there is now overwhelming evidence.

    My reading of the story is that Turkey has been extremely angered at Russia bombing the 'Turkmen' anti-Assad rebels in the area concerned. These people are of Turkish origin.


    Oh, further to this, I've now read Russia has been making massive attacks on ISIS' Oil operation recently: https://www.rt.com/news/323065-syria-airstrikes-terrorists-russia/

    So Putin's implication would appear to be this was a revenge attack for putting a stop to Turkey's cut price oil racket.
    So we can expect Turkey to start shooting down US jets too ?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34906011
    I'd take that with a pinch of salt - the fact that PBS had to illustrate its news peice on the US blowing up ISIS oil infrastructure with footage of Russian bombers doing so doesn't inspire confidence: https://www.rt.com/usa/323070-pbs-isis-video-russian/

    It also begs the question of why they were allowing such activities to continue unhindered for the past 13 months.
    So you're saying they didn't attack the tankers then ?
    No idea. I'm saying on the strength of the last 13 months I will believe any serious US attempt to shut down the ISIS oil machine when I see evidence of it. Why no action against these lines of tankers before? Why no action against the endless convoys of shining Honda trucks pouring over the Iraq/Syria border.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 4,264
    AndyJS said:

    O/T:

    The latest PC madness — yoga is racist and a form of "cultural appropriation"

    http://blogs.new.spectator.co.uk/2015/11/this-obsession-with-cultural-appropriation-is-leading-us-down-a-very-dark-path/

    FFS. That article linked to this insanity. It is not a parody: http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/11/foodie-without-appropriation/

    When it comes to food, what’s appropriation and what’s not can be tricky to think about.

    Cultural appropriation is when members of a dominant culture adopt parts of another culture from people that they’ve also systematically oppressed. The dominant culture can try the food and love the food without ever having to experience oppression because of their consumption.

    With food, it isn’t just eating food from someone else’s culture. It might not be appropriation if you’re White and you love eating dumplings and hand pulled noodles. Enjoying food from another culture is perfectly fine.

    But, food is appropriated when people from the dominant culture – in the case of the US, white folks – start to fetishize or commercialize it, and when they hoard access to that particular food.


    So, next time you have a Lamb Biryani you should remember that you are racist scum continuing the vile oppression of Indians, Pakistanis, or Bangladeshis. I think.
  • AndyJS said:

    O/T:

    The latest PC madness — yoga is racist and a form of "cultural appropriation"

    http://blogs.new.spectator.co.uk/2015/11/this-obsession-with-cultural-appropriation-is-leading-us-down-a-very-dark-path/

    In that case, I profusely and profoundly apologise for appropriating the "white" past-time of trainspotting :lol:
  • CD13 said:

    Ms Cyclefree,

    I think it was a clever move by Ms Kuenssberg to ask such a daft question as "if the worst came to the worst, would you authorise a shoot to kill policy by the police?" There's only one possible answer to that - and that's why its a daft question.

    Only to Jezza would it be a difficult question and obviously, she'd taken that into account. And she hit the jackpot. He could have said told her it was a silly question ... "Of course, there are circumstances where that was allowable but .." Then he could have gone on to go on to urge caution.

    She left a gigantic elephant trap for him and he blundered in. She must think he's the biggest idiot she's ever interviewed, And she's right.

    He is in a weird way the living, breathing, talking, embodiment of the classic critical example of what is wrong with the grammar school system, which having been through himself, he despises as unfair and ineffective.

    Some poor kid, who was much brighter than him, more than likely missed out on a place at the same school.
    Did he not get there via the 11 plus? Or was it in effect a private fee paying school?
    My suggestion is he is one of those people whose notions arose without being taught indeed learning could be problematic if it conflicted with preconceptions.
    I see he only lasted one year at polytechnic and that was doing trade union studies. It seems to me he does not like to 'think' too much.
    It's a shame he seems to have given up wearing his Lenin cap
  • Interesting take from Nick, and plenty to agree with about party management in general. But not in the specific, I fear.

    "However, the democratisation of leadership elections (membership rather than MPs) increases the likelihood that restless members elect a leader with different views to most MPs – who by definition were selected when the party was whatever it was before."

    Yeah, that's your basic problem. And I wouldn't describe the Labour leadership election as particularly democratic; people were paying to take part in it even after the candidates were known. Grounds for failing an NVQ Level 1 in How To Run a Party.

    Elections are won on the centre ground. I don't disagree that the concept may be shifting. But Corbyn is leading you in the wrong direction.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 3,542
    Anorak said:

    AndyJS said:

    O/T:

    The latest PC madness — yoga is racist and a form of "cultural appropriation"

    http://blogs.new.spectator.co.uk/2015/11/this-obsession-with-cultural-appropriation-is-leading-us-down-a-very-dark-path/

    FFS. That article linked to this insanity. It is not a parody: http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/11/foodie-without-appropriation/

    When it comes to food, what’s appropriation and what’s not can be tricky to think about.

    Cultural appropriation is when members of a dominant culture adopt parts of another culture from people that they’ve also systematically oppressed. The dominant culture can try the food and love the food without ever having to experience oppression because of their consumption.

    With food, it isn’t just eating food from someone else’s culture. It might not be appropriation if you’re White and you love eating dumplings and hand pulled noodles. Enjoying food from another culture is perfectly fine.

    But, food is appropriated when people from the dominant culture – in the case of the US, white folks – start to fetishize or commercialize it, and when they hoard access to that particular food.


    So, next time you have a Lamb Biryani you should remember that you are racist scum continuing the vile oppression of Indians, Pakistanis, or Bangladeshis. I think.
    I am glad you think - because the author of that 'article' clearly doesn't know how to engage their brain to form coherent thoughts.

    It amazes me how entitled some people think they are.

    (This comment does not come with a trigger warning - if you are feeling oppressed by it, please take to Tumblr and complain loudly to your 2 followers there)
  • surbiton said:

    Do you have proof that the Russian aircraft overflew Turkish territory or are you accepting Erdogan's word ? If a different Russian aircraft overflew does not mean this one should be shot down.

    I've said all along *if* it happened.

    But remember that the Russians have apologised in the recent months for overflying Turkey, including planes allegedly locking on to Turkish planes:

    http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20151005/1028036764/russia-turkey-airspace-border-violation.html
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/06/nato-chief-jens-stoltenberg-russia-turkish-airspace-violations-syria

    Therefore there is precedent. Also, at this early stage the Turkish flight plan seems more persuasive than the Russian picture released. Both might be accurate (they need not be inconsistent), or one or both faked or inaccurate.

    As for why shoot it down: see my previous post. The last thing a country wants is an unknown foreign aircraft flying over your border without permission from a war zone.

    This was bound to happen: some on here (including me) have been warning about it for ages. There was a scare a few weeks ago that turned out to be just a rumour.
    The Turkish flight path map shows an incursion over a sticky out part of Turkey that with the Russian plane flying at speed, it would have taken approximately 15 seconds to cross.

  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 4,264
    edited November 2015

    Anorak said:

    AndyJS said:

    O/T:

    The latest PC madness — yoga is racist and a form of "cultural appropriation"

    http://blogs.new.spectator.co.uk/2015/11/this-obsession-with-cultural-appropriation-is-leading-us-down-a-very-dark-path/

    FFS. That article linked to this insanity. It is not a parody: http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/11/foodie-without-appropriation/

    When it comes to food, what’s appropriation and what’s not can be tricky to think about.

    Cultural appropriation is when members of a dominant culture adopt parts of another culture from people that they’ve also systematically oppressed. The dominant culture can try the food and love the food without ever having to experience oppression because of their consumption.

    With food, it isn’t just eating food from someone else’s culture. It might not be appropriation if you’re White and you love eating dumplings and hand pulled noodles. Enjoying food from another culture is perfectly fine.

    But, food is appropriated when people from the dominant culture – in the case of the US, white folks – start to fetishize or commercialize it, and when they hoard access to that particular food.


    So, next time you have a Lamb Biryani you should remember that you are racist scum continuing the vile oppression of Indians, Pakistanis, or Bangladeshis. I think.
    I am glad you think - because the author of that 'article' clearly doesn't know how to engage their brain to form coherent thoughts.

    It amazes me how entitled some people think they are.

    (This comment does not come with a trigger warning - if you are feeling oppressed by it, please take to Tumblr and complain loudly to your 2 followers there)
    Reminds me of the scene in 'Holy Grail' where Arthur inadvertently 'oppresses' a peasant :)

    Also: 'Trigger Warnings' are such a piece of eye-roll-tastic bullshit from the professionally offended. Tossers, all.
  • The new members do not seem to care about elections. The MPs worry about keeping their jobs and the lack of advancement if not in govt. These two forces care about different things. But Labour MPs have form in doing nothing and being divorced from their local parties. Just look at Scotland. There the MPs went off in their own directions and assumed the voters would always stick with them. No matter how cr*p their Leaders were the Labour MPs did almost nothing about it.
  • surbiton said:

    Do you have proof that the Russian aircraft overflew Turkish territory or are you accepting Erdogan's word ? If a different Russian aircraft overflew does not mean this one should be shot down.

    I've said all along *if* it happened.

    But remember that the Russians have apologised in the recent months for overflying Turkey, including planes allegedly locking on to Turkish planes:

    http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20151005/1028036764/russia-turkey-airspace-border-violation.html
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/06/nato-chief-jens-stoltenberg-russia-turkish-airspace-violations-syria

    Therefore there is precedent. Also, at this early stage the Turkish flight plan seems more persuasive than the Russian picture released. Both might be accurate (they need not be inconsistent), or one or both faked or inaccurate.

    As for why shoot it down: see my previous post. The last thing a country wants is an unknown foreign aircraft flying over your border without permission from a war zone.

    This was bound to happen: some on here (including me) have been warning about it for ages. There was a scare a few weeks ago that turned out to be just a rumour.
    The Turkish flight path map shows an incursion over a sticky out part of Turkey that with the Russian plane flying at speed, it would have taken approximately 15 seconds to cross.

    Syria has claimed Hatay Province since 1938.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,451

    TGOHF said:

    A rather ironic thread.

    An ex MP who slavishly and sycophantically supported 2 dreadful Labour leaders whose unelectability resulted in candidates like him losing 2 back to back elections tells us that Labour MPs may be wise to slavishly and sycophantically support an even worse leader.

    What am I missing ?

    What a load of rubbish. Blair shares with Maggie the honour of being the most successful main party leaders ever. They both fought 3 elections as leader and both won working majorities.

    Nick's failure to continue as an MP followed the booting out of Blair.

    Please get basic facts right.
    My point exactly - he openly supported the hopeless Brown and dreadful Miliband when reasoned voices were pointing out how unelectable these "leaders" were - and he lost the elections.

    Had more MPs stood up and manned up then these "leaders" may have been ditched and the MPs jobs saved.

    History now repeating itself but worse..
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 3,542
    Anorak said:

    Anorak said:

    AndyJS said:

    O/T:

    The latest PC madness — yoga is racist and a form of "cultural appropriation"

    http://blogs.new.spectator.co.uk/2015/11/this-obsession-with-cultural-appropriation-is-leading-us-down-a-very-dark-path/

    FFS. That article linked to this insanity. It is not a parody: http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/11/foodie-without-appropriation/

    When it comes to food, what’s appropriation and what’s not can be tricky to think about.

    Cultural appropriation is when members of a dominant culture adopt parts of another culture from people that they’ve also systematically oppressed. The dominant culture can try the food and love the food without ever having to experience oppression because of their consumption.

    With food, it isn’t just eating food from someone else’s culture. It might not be appropriation if you’re White and you love eating dumplings and hand pulled noodles. Enjoying food from another culture is perfectly fine.

    But, food is appropriated when people from the dominant culture – in the case of the US, white folks – start to fetishize or commercialize it, and when they hoard access to that particular food.


    So, next time you have a Lamb Biryani you should remember that you are racist scum continuing the vile oppression of Indians, Pakistanis, or Bangladeshis. I think.
    I am glad you think - because the author of that 'article' clearly doesn't know how to engage their brain to form coherent thoughts.

    It amazes me how entitled some people think they are.

    (This comment does not come with a trigger warning - if you are feeling oppressed by it, please take to Tumblr and complain loudly to your 2 followers there)
    Reminds me of the scene in 'Holy Grail' where Arthur inadvertently 'oppresses' a peasant :)

    Also: 'Trigger Warnings' are such a piece of eye-roll-tastic bullshit from the professionally offended. Tossers, all.
    *finger-clicks approval* (though am happy to use jazz hands if that is less triggering for you)
  • osias "Erdogan" Jessop :lol:

    Sunil "Wrong" Prasannan ;)

    BTW, I dislike Erdogan. I shouldn't really need to say that, but the more frenetic on here need to be reminded occasionally ...
    Note: the subject Josias "Erdogan" Jessop responds to the stimulus as predicted!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 19,299

    osias "Erdogan" Jessop :lol:

    Sunil "Wrong" Prasannan ;)

    BTW, I dislike Erdogan. I shouldn't really need to say that, but the more frenetic on here need to be reminded occasionally ...
    Note: the subject Josias "Erdogan" Jessop responds to the stimulus as predicted!
    I prefer the sort of stimulus Mrs J gives me. ;)

    BTW, we still need to have a "hair-off" to see who's the hairiest. ;)

    Now that's something for PBers to look forward to ...
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 5,488

    Which is bigger

    1) The disconnect between the Lab MPs and Corbyn

    2) The disconnect between Lab MPs and the members

    3) The disconnect between Corbyn & Lab members and the wider electorate

    3
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 4,264

    osias "Erdogan" Jessop :lol:

    Sunil "Wrong" Prasannan ;)

    BTW, I dislike Erdogan. I shouldn't really need to say that, but the more frenetic on here need to be reminded occasionally ...
    Note: the subject Josias "Erdogan" Jessop responds to the stimulus as predicted!
    I prefer the sort of stimulus Mrs J gives me. ;)

    BTW, we still need to have a "hair-off" to see who's the hairiest. ;)

    Now that's something for PBers to look forward to ...
    Would you two stick together if placed back-to-back?
  • Anorak said:

    Anorak said:

    AndyJS said:

    O/T:

    The latest PC madness — yoga is racist and a form of "cultural appropriation"

    http://blogs.new.spectator.co.uk/2015/11/this-obsession-with-cultural-appropriation-is-leading-us-down-a-very-dark-path/

    FFS. That article linked to this insanity. It is not a parody: http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/11/foodie-without-appropriation/

    When it comes to food, what’s appropriation and what’s not can be tricky to think about.

    Cultural appropriation is when members of a dominant culture adopt parts of another culture from people that they’ve also systematically oppressed. The dominant culture can try the food and love the food without ever having to experience oppression because of their consumption.

    With food, it isn’t just eating food from someone else’s culture. It might not be appropriation if you’re White and you love eating dumplings and hand pulled noodles. Enjoying food from another culture is perfectly fine.

    But, food is appropriated when people from the dominant culture – in the case of the US, white folks – start to fetishize or commercialize it, and when they hoard access to that particular food.


    So, next time you have a Lamb Biryani you should remember that you are racist scum continuing the vile oppression of Indians, Pakistanis, or Bangladeshis. I think.
    I am glad you think - because the author of that 'article' clearly doesn't know how to engage their brain to form coherent thoughts.

    It amazes me how entitled some people think they are.

    (This comment does not come with a trigger warning - if you are feeling oppressed by it, please take to Tumblr and complain loudly to your 2 followers there)
    Reminds me of the scene in 'Holy Grail' where Arthur inadvertently 'oppresses' a peasant :)

    Also: 'Trigger Warnings' are such a piece of eye-roll-tastic bullshit from the professionally offended. Tossers, all.
    *finger-clicks approval* (though am happy to use jazz hands if that is less triggering for you)
    Stop flaunting your hand-owning privilege! Don't you realise some of us have to type with our toes?!?

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 19,299

    surbiton said:

    Do you have proof that the Russian aircraft overflew Turkish territory or are you accepting Erdogan's word ? If a different Russian aircraft overflew does not mean this one should be shot down.

    I've said all along *if* it happened.

    But remember that the Russians have apologised in the recent months for overflying Turkey, including planes allegedly locking on to Turkish planes:

    http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20151005/1028036764/russia-turkey-airspace-border-violation.html
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/06/nato-chief-jens-stoltenberg-russia-turkish-airspace-violations-syria

    Therefore there is precedent. Also, at this early stage the Turkish flight plan seems more persuasive than the Russian picture released. Both might be accurate (they need not be inconsistent), or one or both faked or inaccurate.

    As for why shoot it down: see my previous post. The last thing a country wants is an unknown foreign aircraft flying over your border without permission from a war zone.

    This was bound to happen: some on here (including me) have been warning about it for ages. There was a scare a few weeks ago that turned out to be just a rumour.
    The Turkish flight path map shows an incursion over a sticky out part of Turkey that with the Russian plane flying at speed, it would have taken approximately 15 seconds to cross.

    Do you a linky for the assertion of that 15 seconds?

    Also, *if* the Turkish map is correct, they overflew it several times.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Finger clicking is so Addams Family :smiley:

    Anorak said:

    Anorak said:

    AndyJS said:

    O/T:

    The latest PC madness — yoga is racist and a form of "cultural appropriation"

    http://blogs.new.spectator.co.uk/2015/11/this-obsession-with-cultural-appropriation-is-leading-us-down-a-very-dark-path/

    FFS. That article linked to this insanity. It is not a parody: http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/11/foodie-without-appropriation/

    When it comes to food, what’s appropriation and what’s not can be tricky to think about.

    Cultural appropriation is when members of a dominant culture adopt parts of another culture from people that they’ve also systematically oppressed. The dominant culture can try the food and love the food without ever having to experience oppression because of their consumption.

    With food, it isn’t just eating food from someone else’s culture. It might not be appropriation if you’re White and you love eating dumplings and hand pulled noodles. Enjoying food from another culture is perfectly fine.

    But, food is appropriated when people from the dominant culture – in the case of the US, white folks – start to fetishize or commercialize it, and when they hoard access to that particular food.


    So, next time you have a Lamb Biryani you should remember that you are racist scum continuing the vile oppression of Indians, Pakistanis, or Bangladeshis. I think.
    I am glad you think - because the author of that 'article' clearly doesn't know how to engage their brain to form coherent thoughts.

    It amazes me how entitled some people think they are.

    (This comment does not come with a trigger warning - if you are feeling oppressed by it, please take to Tumblr and complain loudly to your 2 followers there)
    Reminds me of the scene in 'Holy Grail' where Arthur inadvertently 'oppresses' a peasant :)

    Also: 'Trigger Warnings' are such a piece of eye-roll-tastic bullshit from the professionally offended. Tossers, all.
    *finger-clicks approval* (though am happy to use jazz hands if that is less triggering for you)
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Question for mods please, will I be in trouble if I advertise a forthcoming event with Dan Hannan and Frederick Forsyth?
  • Scott_P said:

    @alexmassie: The thing you have to remember about the Corbynites is that they hate the Labour party. https://t.co/t5H0U5YnNN

    The way I see it, the Labour Party was founded by Socialists. Socialists got their party back on September 12th.

    But - it doesn't necessarily mean that's a good thing!
    Exactly. Tell Hardie, Clynes, Lansbury, Arthur Henderson and the like that what Corbyn stands for isn't true to the Labour Party.

    You never know. Maybe those middle class Liberals that migrated to and then took over the Labour Party, after their own party was shattered might go back home now.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 19,299
    Anorak said:

    osias "Erdogan" Jessop :lol:

    Sunil "Wrong" Prasannan ;)

    BTW, I dislike Erdogan. I shouldn't really need to say that, but the more frenetic on here need to be reminded occasionally ...
    Note: the subject Josias "Erdogan" Jessop responds to the stimulus as predicted!
    I prefer the sort of stimulus Mrs J gives me. ;)

    BTW, we still need to have a "hair-off" to see who's the hairiest. ;)

    Now that's something for PBers to look forward to ...
    Would you two stick together if placed back-to-back?
    That experiment could be rather dangerous. :)

    Besides, how could I go walking when Sunil is working in his lab? Sunil, is your workplace mobile? How do you fancy working at the top of a mountain or two?

    Or the really tricky question: do you fancy changing the little 'un's nappy ...
This discussion has been closed.