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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It’s Black Friday and another less than optimal day for Lab

SystemSystem Posts: 5,841
edited November 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It’s Black Friday and another less than optimal day for Labour and its new leader

How the I is front-paging LAB's division over Syria
pic.twitter.com/UuVyuAbqn9

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 19,299
    edited November 2015
    Thirst? (Edit: just checked: 2 in a row. Woohoo!)

    FPT:

    We must always remember the names of Mohammad Sidique Khan, Shehzad Tanweer, Germaine Lindsay and Hasib Hussain, the four young men who died on 7/7.

    They gave their lives so others might die.

    The bastards.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 19,299
    We must always remember the names of Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell, Diane Abbott and Ken Livingstone.

    They gave nothing so that their party might die.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Richard III, blast!

  • Thirst?

    FPT:

    We must always remember the names of Mohammad Sidique Khan, Shehzad Tanweer, Germaine Lindsay and Hasib Hussain, the four young men who died on 7/7.

    They gave their lives so others might die.

    The bastards.

    Livingstone was disgusting last night. McDonnell is today revealed as an open advovate of IRA terrorism. Abbott has now said Mao did more good than harm.

    Nick Palmer should feel ashamed for his choice of Labour leader this morning. He and 250,000 others knowingly put apologists for and supporters of cold blooded murderers in charge of their party. In doing so they have made it unelectable, disenfranchised millions of centre left voters and taken away any hope that an alternative to this Tory government might get a hearing.

    They are contemptible; not only for their self indulgence, but also for their tolerance of what is now being said and done in Labour's name. Sorry to be personal, but if you are a Labour member and you are not genuinely sickened by what has happened over the last 24 hours then you are a lot worse than a mere useful idiot.

  • The most incisive comment last night was Gaby Hinsliff's that Ken was angrier with Blair than the 7/7 bombers. And this man is fit to be a member of the Labour Party, let alone co-chair a committee for it. I guess where the Shadow Chancellor thinks quoting the 20th Centuries greatest mass-murderer is a little light relief and that kneecappings are a joke, the answer must be yes.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 19,436
    edited November 2015
    What I find weird is that presumably McDonnell's evil views don't really come as news to his Labour colleagues who have been in the HoC with him for decades in many cases. Even I was aware that he was a poisonous little shit. How did any of the Shadow Cabinet think it was ok to serve alongside such a man?

    This is indicative of the deeper problem. The vile cancer that Labour has nurtured in its bosom for decades is now exposed to the general public and the damage will be permanent.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    Thirst?

    FPT:

    We must always remember the names of Mohammad Sidique Khan, Shehzad Tanweer, Germaine Lindsay and Hasib Hussain, the four young men who died on 7/7.

    They gave their lives so others might die.

    The bastards.

    Livingstone was disgusting last night. McDonnell is today revealed as an open advovate of IRA terrorism. Abbott has now said Mao did more good than harm.

    Nick Palmer should feel ashamed for his choice of Labour leader this morning. He and 250,000 others knowingly put apologists for and supporters of cold blooded murderers in charge of their party. In doing so they have made it unelectable, disenfranchised millions of centre left voters and taken away any hope that an alternative to this Tory government might get a hearing.

    They are contemptible; not only for their self indulgence, but also for their tolerance of what is now being said and done in Labour's name. Sorry to be personal, but if you are a Labour member and you are not genuinely sickened by what has happened over the last 24 hours then you are a lot worse than a mere useful idiot.

    Mr Southam I enjoy your posts you are a reasonable labour man, the type I grew up with. But Corbyn is a backlash against the likes of Mandelson and Campbell who lied and spun their way into power aided and abetted by Blair, the end product being Brown and his disastrous time in charge. Labour is angry, resentful and full of envy, anybody that's had dealings with them in recent years won't be surprised at what's going on.

  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    FPT Re; Corbyn's cancelled his trip to Oldham...

    If Dave had any sense, he'd put on his best union Jack underpants and get up there, pronto.

    The last thing he wants is UKIP actually winning.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    My post overlapped with DavidL's, he is spot on.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 19,436

    The most incisive comment last night was Gaby Hinsliff's that Ken was angrier with Blair than the 7/7 bombers. And this man is fit to be a member of the Labour Party, let alone co-chair a committee for it. I guess where the Shadow Chancellor thinks quoting the 20th Centuries greatest mass-murderer is a little light relief and that kneecappings are a joke, the answer must be yes.

    Nah the best was that Labour's leadership's position is that they are opposed to bombing Syria but ok with bombing the UK. That sums up the problem in a single sentence.
  • Pong said:

    FPT Re; Corbyn's cancelled his trip to Oldham...

    If Dave had any sense, he'd put on his best union Jack underpants and get up there, pronto.

    The last thing he wants is UKIP actually winning.

    Agreed. An UKIP Oldham win is worse for the Tories than a LAB hold on a reduced majority.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,828

    ICYMI last night
    twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/669998484490162176

    Blimey.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 64,263
    edited November 2015

    Pong said:

    FPT Re; Corbyn's cancelled his trip to Oldham...

    If Dave had any sense, he'd put on his best union Jack underpants and get up there, pronto.

    The last thing he wants is UKIP actually winning.

    Agreed. An UKIP Oldham win is worse for the Tories than a LAB hold on a reduced majority.
    In the last parliament Dave coped with two Tory MPs defecting to UKIP and them winning their seats under the UKIP banner, he'll cope with UKIP winning a safe Labour seat.

    Will make Labour's internal machinations even more fun.
  • RobD said:

    ICYMI last night
    twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/669998484490162176

    Blimey.

    As long as NickP and the contemptibles are happy. They knew what they were voting for.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 19,436

    Pong said:

    FPT Re; Corbyn's cancelled his trip to Oldham...

    If Dave had any sense, he'd put on his best union Jack underpants and get up there, pronto.

    The last thing he wants is UKIP actually winning.

    Agreed. An UKIP Oldham win is worse for the Tories than a LAB hold on a reduced majority.
    A UKIP win is not good for the Tories and heaven knows I have little time for them but there is more at stake. The good people of Oldham have been given the opportunity to help save Labour from itself. That is in the national interest and I, for one, would console myself to a UKIP victory on that basis.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    UKIP as low as 2/1 in Oldham.

  • What I wouldn't give to be a fly on the wall at Ed Balls and Yvette's dinner table right now.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966


    Mr Southam I enjoy your posts you are a reasonable labour man, the type I grew up with. But Corbyn is a backlash against the likes of Mandelson and Campbell who lied and spun their way into power aided and abetted by Blair, the end product being Brown and his disastrous time in charge. Labour is angry, resentful and full of envy, anybody that's had dealings with them in recent years won't be surprised at what's going on.

    That is as maybe, but they are behaving like an immature teenager, not a mature political and campaigning organisation. Its the political equivalent of storming off to their bedroom, slamming the door and turning the stereo up as loud as they can, and yell "can't hear you" when the voters knock on the bedroom door.

    The sort of gratuitous self-harm they are indulging in at the moment is a petulant reaction to the voters not wanting the last idiot they tried to foist on them, so they are thumbing their noses at the electorate "You thought Miliband was bad, wait until you get a load of this!".

  • PaulyPauly Posts: 857
    Not sure how many of you are geeky enough to have read the entire autumn statement like myself... but it does contain some juicy privitisation news that I've yet to see elsewhere. (Maybe a proper Labour opposition would have moaned about it)

    • press ahead with the privatisation of the Green Investment Bank with a sale
    expected to be concluded during 2016-17 [Already Announced]
    • explore the sale of the government’s 49% shareholding in NATS (air traffic
    services)
    • consult on options to move operations of the Land Registry to the private sector
    from 2017
    • develop options to bring private capital into the Ordnance Survey before 2020

    Sadly no move on Channel 4 yet, which is annoying because this would be the perfect time to gut it. At least they finished the job with Royal Mail - which with continued letter decline & parcel competition is probably a permanent move.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 19,436
    Of course Corbyn not going to Oldham might mean their apparently very good candidate has not given up hope of winning.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Indigo said:


    Mr Southam I enjoy your posts you are a reasonable labour man, the type I grew up with. But Corbyn is a backlash against the likes of Mandelson and Campbell who lied and spun their way into power aided and abetted by Blair, the end product being Brown and his disastrous time in charge. Labour is angry, resentful and full of envy, anybody that's had dealings with them in recent years won't be surprised at what's going on.

    That is as maybe, but they are behaving like an immature teenager, not a mature political and campaigning organisation. Its the political equivalent of storming off to their bedroom, slamming the door and turning the stereo up as loud as they can, and yell "can't hear you" when the voters knock on the bedroom door.

    The sort of gratuitous self-harm they are indulging in at the moment is a petulant reaction to the voters not wanting the last idiot they tried to foist on them, so they are thumbing their noses at the electorate "You thought Miliband was bad, wait until you get a load of this!".

    Mr indigo, I've spent a good bit of time with labour councillors and officials, they are angry, vindictive and spiteful, your assessment is accurate.

  • Pong said:

    FPT Re; Corbyn's cancelled his trip to Oldham...

    If Dave had any sense, he'd put on his best union Jack underpants and get up there, pronto.

    The last thing he wants is UKIP actually winning.

    Agreed. An UKIP Oldham win is worse for the Tories than a LAB hold on a reduced majority.
    If UKIP ever overtook Labour as the official opposition, I'd be delighted.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    DavidL said:

    What I find weird is that presumably McDonnell's evil views don't really come as news to his Labour colleagues who have been in the HoC with him for decades in many cases. Even I was aware that he was a poisonous little shit. How did any of the Shadow Cabinet think it was ok to serve alongside such a man?

    This is indicative of the deeper problem. The vile cancer that Labour has nurtured in its bosom for decades is now exposed to the general public and the damage will be permanent.

    Yes. I think Gordon was the last Labour PM, ever.

    Though playing on Electoral Calculus I see that Labour have 150 seats on 20% of the vote and 100 on 16%. They will be the official opposition for a while yet, at least until another left wing party emerges.

    Frankly extinction as SDP version 2 is preferrable to extinction as Corbynite Labour.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    I genuinely feel sorry for the staunch Labourites like SO...There must be many of them who are sickened by the record of their own party leadership..
  • The most incisive comment last night was Gaby Hinsliff's that Ken was angrier with Blair than the 7/7 bombers. And this man is fit to be a member of the Labour Party, let alone co-chair a committee for it. I guess where the Shadow Chancellor thinks quoting the 20th Centuries greatest mass-murderer is a little light relief and that kneecappings are a joke, the answer must be yes.

    It's not uncommon amongst the far Left to be far angrier and ruthless with "traitors" in your own ranks, than what passes for 'the enemy'.
  • DavidL said:

    Pong said:

    FPT Re; Corbyn's cancelled his trip to Oldham...

    If Dave had any sense, he'd put on his best union Jack underpants and get up there, pronto.

    The last thing he wants is UKIP actually winning.

    Agreed. An UKIP Oldham win is worse for the Tories than a LAB hold on a reduced majority.
    A UKIP win is not good for the Tories and heaven knows I have little time for them but there is more at stake. The good people of Oldham have been given the opportunity to help save Labour from itself. That is in the national interest and I, for one, would console myself to a UKIP victory on that basis.
    I'm not sure the people who put Corbyn in place really care much what voters (manipulated by the right wing press, suffering from false consciousness) think - the people who do, MPs are not being listened to and face losing their jobs - but not at the hands of the general electorate.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Incidentally, Oldham is evidence that despite the media hatchet job, lack of funds, falling membership and Nigel's resignation story support for UKIP is solid and growing.

    I hope people keep throwing insults at me on here and across the country in general, you're helping enormously.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    DavidL said:

    Pong said:

    FPT Re; Corbyn's cancelled his trip to Oldham...

    If Dave had any sense, he'd put on his best union Jack underpants and get up there, pronto.

    The last thing he wants is UKIP actually winning.

    Agreed. An UKIP Oldham win is worse for the Tories than a LAB hold on a reduced majority.
    A UKIP win is not good for the Tories and heaven knows I have little time for them but there is more at stake. The good people of Oldham have been given the opportunity to help save Labour from itself. That is in the national interest and I, for one, would console myself to a UKIP victory on that basis.
    Though a Tory win in Oldham would kill Corbyn far more effectively than a UKIP one!
  • On topic, I wonder if Jeremy Corbyn is like Crassus and Syria will be his ultimate downfall
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693

    Incidentally, Oldham is evidence that despite the media hatchet job, lack of funds, falling membership and Nigel's resignation story support for UKIP is solid and growing.

    I hope people keep throwing insults at me on here and across the country in general, you're helping enormously.

    Erm

    "support for UKIP is solid and growing"

    Pft. Don't be ridiculous.

    If you want to bet that UKIP will get more votes in OW&R than they did in May, I'll happily offer you decent odds.
  • I genuinely feel sorry for the staunch Labourites like SO...There must be many of them who are sickened by the record of their own party leadership..

    Agree - there is a "left of centre" need in the British body politic - I'm sure in time the Labour Party will return to it's Methodist roots - and expell the fellow travellers who have leached off the party. By 2025 the Tories will have been in government for 15 years - at, or rapidly approaching the end of their shelf life....
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 19,436

    DavidL said:

    Pong said:

    FPT Re; Corbyn's cancelled his trip to Oldham...

    If Dave had any sense, he'd put on his best union Jack underpants and get up there, pronto.

    The last thing he wants is UKIP actually winning.

    Agreed. An UKIP Oldham win is worse for the Tories than a LAB hold on a reduced majority.
    A UKIP win is not good for the Tories and heaven knows I have little time for them but there is more at stake. The good people of Oldham have been given the opportunity to help save Labour from itself. That is in the national interest and I, for one, would console myself to a UKIP victory on that basis.
    I'm not sure the people who put Corbyn in place really care much what voters (manipulated by the right wing press, suffering from false consciousness) think - the people who do, MPs are not being listened to and face losing their jobs - but not at the hands of the general electorate.
    I am still working on the somewhat naïve possibility that buried very deep in the corpulate fat of the PLP is either a backbone or at least a streak of self preservation that might move them to act if given concrete and irrefutable proof that things are every bit as bad as they fear. Whatever the constitution says they have it in their power to make Corbyn's position untenable and they need to use it.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Good morning all.
    According to the BBC there will be mass resignations from the Labour Front Bench today. I wonder! Labour MP's, indeed any MP's, have a poor record of resigning on principle these days. Most having no principles or beliefs to start with.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Pong said:

    Incidentally, Oldham is evidence that despite the media hatchet job, lack of funds, falling membership and Nigel's resignation story support for UKIP is solid and growing.

    I hope people keep throwing insults at me on here and across the country in general, you're helping enormously.

    Erm

    "support for UKIP is solid and growing"

    Pft. Don't be ridiculous.

    If you want to bet that UKIP will get more votes in OW&R than they did in May, I'll happily offer you decent odds.
    A low turnout election in unusual circumstances is no evidence of a kipper surge.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    MikeK said:

    Good morning all.
    According to the BBC there will be mass resignations from the Labour Front Bench today. I wonder! Labour MP's, indeed any MP's, have a poor record of resigning on principle these days. Most having no principles or beliefs to start with.

    It would surprise me. They all joined his front bench just 6 weeks ago knowing what Corbyn was like.

  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Pong said:

    FPT Re; Corbyn's cancelled his trip to Oldham...

    If Dave had any sense, he'd put on his best union Jack underpants and get up there, pronto.

    The last thing he wants is UKIP actually winning.

    Agreed. An UKIP Oldham win is worse for the Tories than a LAB hold on a reduced majority.
    A UKIP win is not good for the Tories and heaven knows I have little time for them but there is more at stake. The good people of Oldham have been given the opportunity to help save Labour from itself. That is in the national interest and I, for one, would console myself to a UKIP victory on that basis.
    I'm not sure the people who put Corbyn in place really care much what voters (manipulated by the right wing press, suffering from false consciousness) think - the people who do, MPs are not being listened to and face losing their jobs - but not at the hands of the general electorate.
    I am still working on the somewhat naïve possibility that buried very deep in the corpulate fat of the PLP is either a backbone or at least a streak of self preservation that might move them to act if given concrete and irrefutable proof that things are every bit as bad as they fear. Whatever the constitution says they have it in their power to make Corbyn's position untenable and they need to use it.
    The cheerfully sanguine "nothing wrong here" posts from Mr Palmer would suggest you are perhaps optimistic. Twice in a row the PLP has steamed to disaster under leaders widely believed to be unsuitable - no backbone there!
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,219
    What the country needs is a new centrist party - maybe like Ciudadanos in Spain. They've grown very rapidly and look set to play a central role in any new govt after the Spanish GE. The current Labour party is dead in the water.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Pong said:

    FPT Re; Corbyn's cancelled his trip to Oldham...

    If Dave had any sense, he'd put on his best union Jack underpants and get up there, pronto.

    The last thing he wants is UKIP actually winning.

    Agreed. An UKIP Oldham win is worse for the Tories than a LAB hold on a reduced majority.
    A UKIP win is not good for the Tories and heaven knows I have little time for them but there is more at stake. The good people of Oldham have been given the opportunity to help save Labour from itself. That is in the national interest and I, for one, would console myself to a UKIP victory on that basis.
    I'm not sure the people who put Corbyn in place really care much what voters (manipulated by the right wing press, suffering from false consciousness) think - the people who do, MPs are not being listened to and face losing their jobs - but not at the hands of the general electorate.
    I am still working on the somewhat naïve possibility that buried very deep in the corpulate fat of the PLP is either a backbone or at least a streak of self preservation that might move them to act if given concrete and irrefutable proof that things are every bit as bad as they fear. Whatever the constitution says they have it in their power to make Corbyn's position untenable and they need to use it.
    Corbyn will not go voluntarily. He has never courted popularity in the PLP.

    The only people who can evict him are the people who elected him. That would take a contested election of Corbyn vs AN Other, going out to an election by the membership that Corbyn then loses. Anything else means a worsening of the Labour civil war.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 19,436

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Pong said:

    FPT Re; Corbyn's cancelled his trip to Oldham...

    If Dave had any sense, he'd put on his best union Jack underpants and get up there, pronto.

    The last thing he wants is UKIP actually winning.

    Agreed. An UKIP Oldham win is worse for the Tories than a LAB hold on a reduced majority.
    A UKIP win is not good for the Tories and heaven knows I have little time for them but there is more at stake. The good people of Oldham have been given the opportunity to help save Labour from itself. That is in the national interest and I, for one, would console myself to a UKIP victory on that basis.
    I'm not sure the people who put Corbyn in place really care much what voters (manipulated by the right wing press, suffering from false consciousness) think - the people who do, MPs are not being listened to and face losing their jobs - but not at the hands of the general electorate.
    I am still working on the somewhat naïve possibility that buried very deep in the corpulate fat of the PLP is either a backbone or at least a streak of self preservation that might move them to act if given concrete and irrefutable proof that things are every bit as bad as they fear. Whatever the constitution says they have it in their power to make Corbyn's position untenable and they need to use it.
    The cheerfully sanguine "nothing wrong here" posts from Mr Palmer would suggest you are perhaps optimistic. Twice in a row the PLP has steamed to disaster under leaders widely believed to be unsuitable - no backbone there!
    But if this goes on they risk a Scotland style wipe out. Careers are now at stake, even for those with what were traditionally thought to be safe seats.
  • HaroldOHaroldO Posts: 996
    I'm in NZ currently so haven't been keeping up with things until last night....here time. All hilarious, Corbyn's team pulling together like the incestuously bad comedy group they are.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Pong said:

    FPT Re; Corbyn's cancelled his trip to Oldham...

    If Dave had any sense, he'd put on his best union Jack underpants and get up there, pronto.

    The last thing he wants is UKIP actually winning.

    Agreed. An UKIP Oldham win is worse for the Tories than a LAB hold on a reduced majority.
    A UKIP win is not good for the Tories and heaven knows I have little time for them but there is more at stake. The good people of Oldham have been given the opportunity to help save Labour from itself. That is in the national interest and I, for one, would console myself to a UKIP victory on that basis.
    I'm not sure the people who put Corbyn in place really care much what voters (manipulated by the right wing press, suffering from false consciousness) think - the people who do, MPs are not being listened to and face losing their jobs - but not at the hands of the general electorate.
    I am still working on the somewhat naïve possibility that buried very deep in the corpulate fat of the PLP is either a backbone or at least a streak of self preservation that might move them to act if given concrete and irrefutable proof that things are every bit as bad as they fear. Whatever the constitution says they have it in their power to make Corbyn's position untenable and they need to use it.
    Corbyn will not go voluntarily. He has never courted popularity in the PLP.

    The only people who can evict him are the people who elected him. That would take a contested election of Corbyn vs AN Other, going out to an election by the membership that Corbyn then loses. Anything else means a worsening of the Labour civil war.
    And with that in mind, the shadow cabinet picking a fight with him over Syria is awkward. The Labour party electorate is much more peacenik than the public at large.
  • What odds that a party other than Labour will be the next governing party after the Tories?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 19,299

    Incidentally, Oldham is evidence that despite the media hatchet job, lack of funds, falling membership and Nigel's resignation story support for UKIP is solid and growing.

    I hope people keep throwing insults at me on here and across the country in general, you're helping enormously.

    There are two types of electoral support. Firstly there is the core support: for both Labour and Conservatives this has hovered at around 30%, and it'll be interesting to see if it goes any lower for Labour after these troubles.

    But as the Lib Dems have shown, getting an increase in protest vote matters little in the long term unless you increase your core support. They gained large numbers of mainly ex-Labour voters from 2005, but these were fairweather friends who abandoned them with remarkable speed.

    A party likes UKIP needs to grow both its core support as well as its general, fairweather support. The core are more likely to get out, both to vote and to help.

    As for people throwing insults: if you're getting insults from across the country you should perhaps consider if some of them have a point ...
  • HaroldOHaroldO Posts: 996

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Pong said:

    FPT Re; Corbyn's cancelled his trip to Oldham...

    If Dave had any sense, he'd put on his best union Jack underpants and get up there, pronto.

    The last thing he wants is UKIP actually winning.

    Agreed. An UKIP Oldham win is worse for the Tories than a LAB hold on a reduced majority.
    A UKIP win is not good for the Tories and heaven knows I have little time for them but there is more at stake. The good people of Oldham have been given the opportunity to help save Labour from itself. That is in the national interest and I, for one, would console myself to a UKIP victory on that basis.
    I'm not sure the people who put Corbyn in place really care much what voters (manipulated by the right wing press, suffering from false consciousness) think - the people who do, MPs are not being listened to and face losing their jobs - but not at the hands of the general electorate.
    I am still working on the somewhat naïve possibility that buried very deep in the corpulate fat of the PLP is either a backbone or at least a streak of self preservation that might move them to act if given concrete and irrefutable proof that things are every bit as bad as they fear. Whatever the constitution says they have it in their power to make Corbyn's position untenable and they need to use it.
    Corbyn will not go voluntarily. He has never courted popularity in the PLP.

    The only people who can evict him are the people who elected him. That would take a contested election of Corbyn vs AN Other, going out to an election by the membership that Corbyn then loses. Anything else means a worsening of the Labour civil war.
    And with that in mind, the shadow cabinet picking a fight with him over Syria is awkward. The Labour party electorate is much more peacenik than the public at large.
    Does Corbyn care though? He is used to small groups agreeing with each other on a wet Wednesday in a town hall. All those pesky voters he can't see do not matter.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 8h8 hours ago
    Rochford (Rochford) result:
    LAB: 32.4% (-16.0)
    CON: 32.0% (-19.5)
    UKIP: 24.4% (+24.4)
    LDEM: 11.1% (+11.1)

    Labour GAIN
  • Burp.

    On mornings like this and after admiring my avatar once again, there's only one place to go:

    http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/conference/2007/09/labour-majority-increase
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 19,436

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Pong said:

    FPT Re; Corbyn's cancelled his trip to Oldham...

    If Dave had any sense, he'd put on his best union Jack underpants and get up there, pronto.

    The last thing he wants is UKIP actually winning.

    Agreed. An UKIP Oldham win is worse for the Tories than a LAB hold on a reduced majority.
    A UKIP win is not good for the Tories and heaven knows I have little time for them but there is more at stake. The good people of Oldham have been given the opportunity to help save Labour from itself. That is in the national interest and I, for one, would console myself to a UKIP victory on that basis.
    I'm not sure the people who put Corbyn in place really care much what voters (manipulated by the right wing press, suffering from false consciousness) think - the people who do, MPs are not being listened to and face losing their jobs - but not at the hands of the general electorate.
    I am still working on the somewhat naïve possibility that buried very deep in the corpulate fat of the PLP is either a backbone or at least a streak of self preservation that might move them to act if given concrete and irrefutable proof that things are every bit as bad as they fear. Whatever the constitution says they have it in their power to make Corbyn's position untenable and they need to use it.
    Corbyn will not go voluntarily. He has never courted popularity in the PLP.

    The only people who can evict him are the people who elected him. That would take a contested election of Corbyn vs AN Other, going out to an election by the membership that Corbyn then loses. Anything else means a worsening of the Labour civil war.
    Self discipline (let alone any feelings of disgust) could make it impossible for Corbyn to form a shadow cabinet. LOTO is a Parliamentary post. If the PLP make it clear they are not going to follow him Corbyn will have no right to hold it whether he remains leader of the party or not.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 19,299

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Pong said:

    FPT Re; Corbyn's cancelled his trip to Oldham...

    If Dave had any sense, he'd put on his best union Jack underpants and get up there, pronto.

    The last thing he wants is UKIP actually winning.

    Agreed. An UKIP Oldham win is worse for the Tories than a LAB hold on a reduced majority.
    A UKIP win is not good for the Tories and heaven knows I have little time for them but there is more at stake. The good people of Oldham have been given the opportunity to help save Labour from itself. That is in the national interest and I, for one, would console myself to a UKIP victory on that basis.
    I'm not sure the people who put Corbyn in place really care much what voters (manipulated by the right wing press, suffering from false consciousness) think - the people who do, MPs are not being listened to and face losing their jobs - but not at the hands of the general electorate.
    I am still working on the somewhat naïve possibility that buried very deep in the corpulate fat of the PLP is either a backbone or at least a streak of self preservation that might move them to act if given concrete and irrefutable proof that things are every bit as bad as they fear. Whatever the constitution says they have it in their power to make Corbyn's position untenable and they need to use it.
    The cheerfully sanguine "nothing wrong here" posts from Mr Palmer would suggest you are perhaps optimistic. Twice in a row the PLP has steamed to disaster under leaders widely believed to be unsuitable - no backbone there!
    No backbone, no brains, and no guts.

    They are political amoeba.
  • chestnut said:

    Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 8h8 hours ago
    Rochford (Rochford) result:
    LAB: 32.4% (-16.0)
    CON: 32.0% (-19.5)
    UKIP: 24.4% (+24.4)
    LDEM: 11.1% (+11.1)

    Labour GAIN

    Vote UKIP get Lab "ok with the IRA bombing the UK, but not with the RAF bombing ISIS".

    Well done.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 8h8 hours ago
    Carnforth & Millhead (Lancaster) result:
    CON: 54.9% (+6.9)
    LAB: 32.3% (-2.8)
    GRN: 5.2% (-11.7)
    LDEM: 3.8% (+3.8)
    UKIP: 3.7% (+3.7)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,645

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Pong said:

    FPT Re; Corbyn's cancelled his trip to Oldham...

    If Dave had any sense, he'd put on his best union Jack underpants and get up there, pronto.

    The last thing he wants is UKIP actually winning.

    Agreed. An UKIP Oldham win is worse for the Tories than a LAB hold on a reduced majority.
    A UKIP win is not good for the Tories and heaven knows I have little time for them but there is more at stake. The good people of Oldham have been given the opportunity to help save Labour from itself. That is in the national interest and I, for one, would console myself to a UKIP victory on that basis.
    I'm not sure the people who put Corbyn in place really care much what voters (manipulated by the right wing press, suffering from false consciousness) think - the people who do, MPs are not being listened to and face losing their jobs - but not at the hands of the general electorate.
    I am still working on the somewhat naïve possibility that buried very deep in the corpulate fat of the PLP is either a backbone or at least a streak of self preservation that might move them to act if given concrete and irrefutable proof that things are every bit as bad as they fear. Whatever the constitution says they have it in their power to make Corbyn's position untenable and they need to use it.
    Corbyn will not go voluntarily. He has never courted popularity in the PLP.

    The only people who can evict him are the people who elected him. That would take a contested election of Corbyn vs AN Other, going out to an election by the membership that Corbyn then loses. Anything else means a worsening of the Labour civil war.
    If Labour lose a by election to UKIP the PLP will have to move and select and nominate a 'unity' candidate almost unanimously in effect forcing Corbyn out
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    A political Black Friday will mean that Labour MP's are going cheaply. Will it be a discount on price, or will it be a discount on guts and core beliefs?
  • like old times..


    GOsborneGenius @GOsborneGenius
    @MSmithsonPB More importantly they want to keep Corbyn in situ for as long as possible.
    Retweeted by Mike Smithson
  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,828

    Burp.

    On mornings like this and after admiring my avatar once again, there's only one place to go:

    http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/conference/2007/09/labour-majority-increase

    That's up there with the "no more snow" article, heh
  • PaulyPauly Posts: 857
    A few months ago I never could have foreseen that it was even possible for Labour with a heavily eurosceptic leader (admittedly privately) and yet still be at such a risk electorally from UKIP. Corbyn must have more bastards than major at this point, easily.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 12,470
    Even Cif doesn't dare open comments on their Ken/"gave their lives" article.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,645
    felix said:

    What the country needs is a new centrist party - maybe like Ciudadanos in Spain. They've grown very rapidly and look set to play a central role in any new govt after the Spanish GE. The current Labour party is dead in the water.

    Ciudadanos are basically Cleggite LDs so can fall as much as they rise, while the PSOE is Labour's sister party Corbyn is closer to Podemos
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,219
    chestnut said:

    Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 8h8 hours ago
    Rochford (Rochford) result:
    LAB: 32.4% (-16.0)
    CON: 32.0% (-19.5)
    UKIP: 24.4% (+24.4)
    LDEM: 11.1% (+11.1)

    Labour GAIN

    Shows the danger of voting UKIP!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,645

    What odds that a party other than Labour will be the next governing party after the Tories?

    UKIP? Unless Labour MPs defect on mass
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,219
    Salisbury St Edmund (Wiltshire) result: CON: 36.0% (+13.1) LDEM: 22.2% (-20.8) LAB: 19.7% (+5.2) GRN: 18.2% (+10.7) IND: 3.8% (+3.8)

    Con gain from LD - go farron!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 12,470

    Thirst?

    FPT:

    We must always remember the names of Mohammad Sidique Khan, Shehzad Tanweer, Germaine Lindsay and Hasib Hussain, the four young men who died on 7/7.

    They gave their lives so others might die.

    The bastards.

    Livingstone was disgusting last night. McDonnell is today revealed as an open advovate of IRA terrorism. Abbott has now said Mao did more good than harm.

    Nick Palmer should feel ashamed for his choice of Labour leader this morning. He and 250,000 others knowingly put apologists for and supporters of cold blooded murderers in charge of their party. In doing so they have made it unelectable, disenfranchised millions of centre left voters and taken away any hope that an alternative to this Tory government might get a hearing.

    They are contemptible; not only for their self indulgence, but also for their tolerance of what is now being said and done in Labour's name. Sorry to be personal, but if you are a Labour member and you are not genuinely sickened by what has happened over the last 24 hours then you are a lot worse than a mere useful idiot.

    Mr Southam I enjoy your posts you are a reasonable labour man, the type I grew up with. But Corbyn is a backlash against the likes of Mandelson and Campbell who lied and spun their way into power aided and abetted by Blair, the end product being Brown and his disastrous time in charge. Labour is angry, resentful and full of envy, anybody that's had dealings with them in recent years won't be surprised at what's going on.

    You are talking to yourself and that is the Labour Party problem.

    "Labour is angry, resentful...."

    No. Some elements of the Labour Party membership might be. But not the millions of voters who want a sensible, centre-left party to vote for. Lab will never get it right until they get that.
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 3,264
    It is fascinating to watch the slow immolation of Labour. It is clear that if the PLP move against Corbyn then it will reinforce the betrayal narrative of the hard left. It is also clear that the moderate elements won't move because they think there's a way of salvaging the next election. It's one hell of a mess they've got themselves into.
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,219
    HYUFD said:

    felix said:

    What the country needs is a new centrist party - maybe like Ciudadanos in Spain. They've grown very rapidly and look set to play a central role in any new govt after the Spanish GE. The current Labour party is dead in the water.

    Ciudadanos are basically Cleggite LDs so can fall as much as they rise, while the PSOE is Labour's sister party Corbyn is closer to Podemos
    Yes but PSOE is doing almost as bad as the PP despite 4 years of pretty hard austerity. The PP remain well ahead as largest party but cannot get an overall majority. Spanish politics is interesting as there seems to be a real realignment going on.
  • HYUFD said:

    What odds that a party other than Labour will be the next governing party after the Tories?

    UKIP? Unless Labour MPs defect on mass
    The Tories could well be in power for another 30 years :(

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 35,300
    ToryJim said:

    the moderate elements won't move because

    ...they're total crap. Lobby fodder with not a spark of initiative between them
  • RobD said:

    Burp.

    On mornings like this and after admiring my avatar once again, there's only one place to go:

    http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/conference/2007/09/labour-majority-increase

    That's up there with the "no more snow" article, heh
    a new option is popping down tim's twitter rant...

    GOsborneGenius
    @GOsborneGenius
    @AGKD123 It's a shame Abbott and Livingstone don't distribute the food and alcohol more equitably between each other.

    GOsborneGenius
    @GOsborneGenius
    @MikeGapes @RossFootball @seanjmcg Essentially the Labour Party is led by 4/5 terrorist sympathisers Corbyn/McD's useful idiots must see now


    GOsborneGenius
    @GOsborneGenius
    @Kevin_Maguire He's a prick who is damaging the Labour Party every day he's in position.You know that, so stop pandering.

  • felix said:

    What the country needs is a new centrist party - maybe like Ciudadanos in Spain. They've grown very rapidly and look set to play a central role in any new govt after the Spanish GE. The current Labour party is dead in the water.

    We've got it: the Conservatives.

    Although personally I think the Conservative leadership is (still) acting on the lessons they've taken away from the 1990s and not how politics is going to be in the 2020s, which will be very different.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 9,622
    edited November 2015

    RobD said:

    Burp.

    On mornings like this and after admiring my avatar once again, there's only one place to go:

    http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/conference/2007/09/labour-majority-increase

    That's up there with the "no more snow" article, heh
    a new option is popping down tim's twitter rant...

    GOsborneGenius
    @GOsborneGenius
    @AGKD123 It's a shame Abbott and Livingstone don't distribute the food and alcohol more equitably between each other.

    GOsborneGenius
    @GOsborneGenius
    @MikeGapes @RossFootball @seanjmcg Essentially the Labour Party is led by 4/5 terrorist sympathisers Corbyn/McD's useful idiots must see now


    GOsborneGenius
    @GOsborneGenius
    @Kevin_Maguire He's a prick who is damaging the Labour Party every day he's in position.You know that, so stop pandering.

    Tory Tim!!!
  • Time for the SDP2 then if we are back in the 80s
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 1,593
    edited November 2015
    Gosh ... reading pb.com, it is obvious Corbyn and MacDonnell must be very, very bad people.

    As bad as Senators Gruening and Morse.

    They were the only two Senators that voted against the Gulf of Tonkin resolution in 1962, which authorised the US involvement in the Vietnam War. They lost 88-2.

    They suffered a tidal wave of abuse and both lost their seats at the next set of elections.

    Of course, it all looks very different now ... Gruening and Morse are lauded as heroes, standing up against a jingoistic President and US public.

    I suspect that Corbyn has called this right, and it will look different even in a years time.

    I also suspect this is the worst of all fights that the Labour Right could have picked with the leadership.

  • I don't wish to sound hubristic but if Corbyn leads Labour at the general election, then Labour are going to get beaten like morning wood
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 35,300
    @AlexWhiteUK: Excited to see what Labour will mess up today. It's like an advent calendar with crushing embarrassment instead of chocolate.
  • Good morning, everyone.

    ....

    Labour aren't so much jumping the shark or nuking the fridge, as putting the shark in the fridge and then nuking it whilst the Fonz water-skis over the mushroom cloud.
  • HYUFD said:

    What odds that a party other than Labour will be the next governing party after the Tories?

    UKIP? Unless Labour MPs defect on mass
    I just think it's far from inconceivable that one of the following scenarios could happen:

    1. Labour Party split over Corbyn. Deselections cause moderate Labour MPs to set up SDP MK 2. Supersedes the Labour Party at the next election. Becomes official opposition and forms a government at a subsequent election.

    2. Labour Party implodes electorally letting UKIP seize a hold in the North of England. A turbulent EU Referendum campaign leads to a narrow victory for in but people are far from pleased and decamp to UKIP, SNP-style, so much so that they supersede Labour and become the official opposition. And a government at a subsequent election when the Tories slip up.

    3. A very long shot, but Lib Dem comeback?

    I'm not saying any of these things are particularly likely, but given the parlous state of Labour they've got to be possible?
  • KippleKipple Posts: 17
    HYUFD said:

    What odds that a party other than Labour will be the next governing party after the Tories?

    UKIP? Unless Labour MPs defect on mass
    The Co-operative Party exists, has party infrastructure and a number of sitting affiliated MPs.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,429

    Time for the SDP2 then if we are back in the 80s

    That SDP2 needs to include an amalgamation with the LibDems to form a new Progressive Democrats. Both parties - Labour and LidDems - need to walk away from their recent past. Together, they could offer a ferocious opposition to an Osborne-led Tory party in 2020. Singly, they're each gonna get smashed up.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Pong said:

    Incidentally, Oldham is evidence that despite the media hatchet job, lack of funds, falling membership and Nigel's resignation story support for UKIP is solid and growing.

    I hope people keep throwing insults at me on here and across the country in general, you're helping enormously.

    Erm

    "support for UKIP is solid and growing"

    Pft. Don't be ridiculous.

    If you want to bet that UKIP will get more votes in OW&R than they did in May, I'll happily offer you decent odds.
    As a %? What price are you offering?

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 35,300
    @PolhomeEditor: UK must "play our full part" in defeat IS, Shadow Foreign Secretary @hilarybennmp tells @BBCr4today

    @nedsimons: Hilary Benn says the UN 'could not have been clearer' that action should be taken against Isis. #r4today
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,429
    Any resignations between now and next Friday will give the Corbynistas the perfect cover to blame for any loss in Oldham.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 35,300
    @bbcnickrobinson: Last night Labour leader opposed Syrian air strikes. This morning Shadow Foreign Sec Hillary Benn publicly backs them #R4Today #newpolitics
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 12,470
    edited November 2015

    Gosh ... reading pb.com, it is obvious Corbyn and MacDonnell must be very, very bad people.

    As bad as Senators Gruening and Morse.

    They were the only two Senators that voted against the Gulf of Tonkin resolution in 1962, which authorised the US involvement in the Vietnam War. They lost 88-2.

    They suffered a tidal wave of abuse and both lost their seats at the next set of elections.

    Of course, it all looks very different now ... Gruening and Morse are lauded as heroes, standing up against a jingoistic President and US public.

    I suspect that Corbyn has called this right, and it will look different even in a years time.

    I also suspect this is the worst of all fights that the Labour Right could have picked with the leadership.

    Afghan 2001? Perhaps. Iraq? For sure. Afghan II? Can see it. Libya? Yep that also.

    But not Syria. In fact it is a reverse-Iraq as effectively we will be sustaining the incumbent tyrant.

    We have a group who have declared a caliphate and aim to fulfil the aspirations of Qutb, et al waging global jihad, er, globally.

    This is not a war of imperialism. It is a war both to interdict and deplete IS. And to make people think twice if they fancy going there to join them.

  • I suspect that Corbyn has called this right, and it will look different even in a years time.

    I also suspect this is the worst of all fights that the Labour Right could have picked with the leadership.

    What in Corbyn's record persuaded you that he has "called this right"?
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    TOPPING said:

    Thirst?

    FPT:

    We must always remember the names of Mohammad Sidique Khan, Shehzad Tanweer, Germaine Lindsay and Hasib Hussain, the four young men who died on 7/7.

    They gave their lives so others might die.

    The bastards.

    Livingstone was disgusting last night. McDonnell is today revealed as an open advovate of IRA terrorism. Abbott has now said Mao did more good than harm.

    Nick Palmer should feel ashamed for his choice of Labour leader this morning. He and 250,000 others knowingly put apologists for and supporters of cold blooded murderers in charge of their party. In doing so they have made it unelectable, disenfranchised millions of centre left voters and taken away any hope that an alternative to this Tory government might get a hearing.

    They are contemptible; not only for their self indulgence, but also for their tolerance of what is now being said and done in Labour's name. Sorry to be personal, but if you are a Labour member and you are not genuinely sickened by what has happened over the last 24 hours then you are a lot worse than a mere useful idiot.

    Mr Southam I enjoy your posts you are a reasonable labour man, the type I grew up with. But Corbyn is a backlash against the likes of Mandelson and Campbell who lied and spun their way into power aided and abetted by Blair, the end product being Brown and his disastrous time in charge. Labour is angry, resentful and full of envy, anybody that's had dealings with them in recent years won't be surprised at what's going on.

    You are talking to yourself and that is the Labour Party problem.

    "Labour is angry, resentful...."

    No. Some elements of the Labour Party membership might be. But not the millions of voters who want a sensible, centre-left party to vote for. Lab will never get it right until they get that.
    But the people who cared voted for Corbyn while the mysterious centre left stood around wringing their hands
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 35,300
    @JamesTapsfield: Benn: "I'm not going to resign because I'm doing my job as shadow foreign secretary"

    Translation. I want to be the next leader when the dust settles from the coming implosion
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 1,593


    I suspect that Corbyn has called this right, and it will look different even in a years time.

    I also suspect this is the worst of all fights that the Labour Right could have picked with the leadership.

    What in Corbyn's record persuaded you that he has "called this right"?
    He called Iraq right.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,645
    felix said:

    HYUFD said:

    felix said:

    What the country needs is a new centrist party - maybe like Ciudadanos in Spain. They've grown very rapidly and look set to play a central role in any new govt after the Spanish GE. The current Labour party is dead in the water.

    Ciudadanos are basically Cleggite LDs so can fall as much as they rise, while the PSOE is Labour's sister party Corbyn is closer to Podemos
    Yes but PSOE is doing almost as bad as the PP despite 4 years of pretty hard austerity. The PP remain well ahead as largest party but cannot get an overall majority. Spanish politics is interesting as there seems to be a real realignment going on.
    Ciudadanos may end up propping up the PP as Clegg propped up the Tories, although probably not in Coalition
  • TOPPING said:

    Thirst?

    FPT:

    We must always remember the names of Mohammad Sidique Khan, Shehzad Tanweer, Germaine Lindsay and Hasib Hussain, the four young men who died on 7/7.

    They gave their lives so others might die.

    The bastards.

    Livingstone was disgusting last night. McDonnell is today revealed as an open advovate of IRA terrorism. Abbott has now said Mao did more good than harm.

    Nick Palmer should feel ashamed for his choice of Labour leader this morning. He and 250,000 others knowingly put apologists for and supporters of cold blooded murderers in charge of their party. In doing so they have made it unelectable, disenfranchised millions of centre left voters and taken away any hope that an alternative to this Tory government might get a hearing.

    They are contemptible; not only for their self indulgence, but also for their tolerance of what is now being said and done in Labour's name. Sorry to be personal, but if you are a Labour member and you are not genuinely sickened by what has happened over the last 24 hours then you are a lot worse than a mere useful idiot.

    Mr Southam I enjoy your posts you are a reasonable labour man, the type I grew up with. But Corbyn is a backlash against the likes of Mandelson and Campbell who lied and spun their way into power aided and abetted by Blair, the end product being Brown and his disastrous time in charge. Labour is angry, resentful and full of envy, anybody that's had dealings with them in recent years won't be surprised at what's going on.

    You are talking to yourself and that is the Labour Party problem.

    "Labour is angry, resentful...."

    No. Some elements of the Labour Party membership might be. But not the millions of voters who want a sensible, centre-left party to vote for. Lab will never get it right until they get that.
    But the people who cared voted for Corbyn while the mysterious centre left stood around wringing their hands
    There ain't no centre left. There's just idealistic youth growing older and either richer or more fearful, on passage to the Right.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,645
    Kipple said:

    HYUFD said:

    What odds that a party other than Labour will be the next governing party after the Tories?

    UKIP? Unless Labour MPs defect on mass
    The Co-operative Party exists, has party infrastructure and a number of sitting affiliated MPs.
    That is just an affiliated movement and not that moderate either
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 3,264
    Scott_P said:

    @JamesTapsfield: Benn: "I'm not going to resign because I'm doing my job as shadow foreign secretary"

    Translation. I want to be the next leader when the dust settles from the coming implosion

    What a spineless cretinous careerist.
  • Mr. Jim, possibly. Possibly Benn fears he'd get replaced by someone mad as McDonnell.

    Or a bit of both.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 12,470

    TOPPING said:

    Thirst?

    FPT:

    We must always remember the names of Mohammad Sidique Khan, Shehzad Tanweer, Germaine Lindsay and Hasib Hussain, the four young men who died on 7/7.

    They gave their lives so others might die.

    The bastards.

    Livingstone was disgusting last night. McDonnell is today revealed as an open advovate of IRA terrorism. Abbott has now said Mao did more good than harm.

    Nick Palmer should feel ashamed for his choice of Labour leader this morning. He and 250,000 others knowingly put apologists for and supporters of cold blooded murderers in charge of their party. In doing so they have made it unelectable, disenfranchised millions of centre left voters and taken away any hope that an alternative to this Tory government might get a hearing.

    They are contemptible; not only for their self indulgence, but also for their tolerance of what is now being said and done in Labour's name. Sorry to be personal, but if you are a Labour member and you are not genuinely sickened by what has happened over the last 24 hours then you are a lot worse than a mere useful idiot.

    Mr Southam I enjoy your posts you are a reasonable labour man, the type I grew up with. But Corbyn is a backlash against the likes of Mandelson and Campbell who lied and spun their way into power aided and abetted by Blair, the end product being Brown and his disastrous time in charge. Labour is angry, resentful and full of envy, anybody that's had dealings with them in recent years won't be surprised at what's going on.

    You are talking to yourself and that is the Labour Party problem.

    "Labour is angry, resentful...."

    No. Some elements of the Labour Party membership might be. But not the millions of voters who want a sensible, centre-left party to vote for. Lab will never get it right until they get that.
    But the people who cared voted for Corbyn while the mysterious centre left stood around wringing their hands
    I don't disagree and yes, they reap what they allowed other people to sow.

    Something smells wrong and putsch-like but yes, if that is what the Labour Party and supporters want or can't be bothered to oppose then I have no quarrel.

    But if people like SO and tim, for heaven's sake, are opposed, I have got to believe that Jezza is unrepresentative of Lab supporters as a whole. We shall see.
  • HaroldOHaroldO Posts: 996


    I suspect that Corbyn has called this right, and it will look different even in a years time.

    I also suspect this is the worst of all fights that the Labour Right could have picked with the leadership.

    What in Corbyn's record persuaded you that he has "called this right"?
    He called Iraq right.
    Stopped clock.
  • ArtistArtist Posts: 1,386
    edited November 2015
    There's an extra dimension to this, other than the usual Corbyn versus PLP stuff...in that I assume the majority of Labour MPs are still opposed to air strikes, so Corbyn holds the majority view? If that's the case, why is the proportion of the Shadow Cabinet supporting air strikes so different to the rest of the PLP?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,645
    edited November 2015

    HYUFD said:

    What odds that a party other than Labour will be the next governing party after the Tories?

    UKIP? Unless Labour MPs defect on mass
    I just think it's far from inconceivable that one of the following scenarios could happen:

    1. Labour Party split over Corbyn. Deselections cause moderate Labour MPs to set up SDP MK 2. Supersedes the Labour Party at the next election. Becomes official opposition and forms a government at a subsequent election.

    2. Labour Party implodes electorally letting UKIP seize a hold in the North of England. A turbulent EU Referendum campaign leads to a narrow victory for in but people are far from pleased and decamp to UKIP, SNP-style, so much so that they supersede Labour and become the official opposition. And a government at a subsequent election when the Tories slip up.

    3. A very long shot, but Lib Dem comeback?

    I'm not saying any of these things are particularly likely, but given the parlous state of Labour they've got to be possible?
    2 is most likely especially post EU ref if a narrow In. Poland now has a UKIP party in government having replaced a Cameron like party which was in government with the Left a poor third. Mexico has a populist leftwing opposition and a social democratic president with the right third, sometimes two parties on the same spectrum can be first and second if one is centrist and one populist though it is rare and often like Greece or Canada the second replaces the first
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 12,470
    And speaking of tim he is at his best right now on twitter wrt Lab.

    Coruscating is not the half of it.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,645

    HYUFD said:

    What odds that a party other than Labour will be the next governing party after the Tories?

    UKIP? Unless Labour MPs defect on mass
    The Tories could well be in power for another 30 years :(

    Unlikely that long
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited November 2015


    I suspect that Corbyn has called this right, and it will look different even in a years time.

    I also suspect this is the worst of all fights that the Labour Right could have picked with the leadership.

    What in Corbyn's record persuaded you that he has "called this right"?
    Any form of terrorist activity in any part of the world will be claimed as justification that he was 'right'.

    The non-intervention that has given a free pass which has left hundreds of thousands dying, facilitated acts of genocide, charity worker beheadings, homosexuals being thrown off buildings, a million refugees landing in Europe, terrorist attacks spreading through Africa, the Middle East and into Europe will continue to be ignored as contrary evidence that perhaps they were wrong.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,796
    TOPPING said:

    Gosh ... reading pb.com, it is obvious Corbyn and MacDonnell must be very, very bad people.

    As bad as Senators Gruening and Morse.

    They were the only two Senators that voted against the Gulf of Tonkin resolution in 1962, which authorised the US involvement in the Vietnam War. They lost 88-2.

    They suffered a tidal wave of abuse and both lost their seats at the next set of elections.

    Of course, it all looks very different now ... Gruening and Morse are lauded as heroes, standing up against a jingoistic President and US public.

    I suspect that Corbyn has called this right, and it will look different even in a years time.

    I also suspect this is the worst of all fights that the Labour Right could have picked with the leadership.

    Afghan 2001? Perhaps. Iraq? For sure. Afghan II? Can see it. Libya? Yep that also.

    But not Syria. In fact it is a reverse-Iraq as effectively we will be sustaining the incumbent tyrant.

    We have a group who have declared a caliphate and aim to fulfil the aspirations of Qutb, et al waging global jihad, er, globally.

    This is not a war of imperialism. It is a war both to interdict and deplete IS. And to make people think twice if they fancy going there to join them.
    Bollox, it is just jingoistic halfwits desperate to wave their willies , desperate because they cannot strut about and preen claiming to be a war leader. Heroes led by donkeys was never more true.
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