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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Welcome to week 13 of Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership

SystemSystem Posts: 5,841
edited November 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Welcome to week 13 of Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership

Just about everything in British politics is now looked at through the prism of the impact on Labour’s new leadership. Is Corbyn going to try to impose a whip on his party to oppose Syrian air-strikes and what happens to his party either way?

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 27,670
    edited November 2015
    First!

    Like Labour in Oldham, I suspect......
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,709
    Bourgeois ideas of liberty, equality, and freedom of speech are degenerate and idiotic hallucinations. The only objective form of reality is to imprison those who seek to destroy the will of the people in cold damp dungeons, and fling dollops of dung at them. It is inevitable that the refreshing and vital fury of the masses will resound clangorously like a whirlwind through the green benches of the running-dog revisionists of the Parliamentary so-called "Labour" Party. Corbynism is full of youth and vitality, sweeping the world with the momentum of an avalanche and the force of a thunderbolt.
  • Reading some of the tweets on OGH's Oldham source twitter feed - the logic seems to be 'anyone who isn't a socialist is therefore a Tory. Ed wasn't a socialist, therefore he was a Tory.....'

    Also pointing out voters views of Corbyn is 'unhelpful' and not to be done if you are 'loyal'.

    I do hope they canvas like that.....
  • Completely OT - just finished bingeing watching Amazon's 'The Man in the High Castle' - absorbing, tho as usual with American series, when they want English speaking Nazis they cast Brits......(and none the worse for that - one of the American male leads is also a Brit...)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,828
    Soon everyone but Corbyn will be a Tory!
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,709
    Corbyn is backed by a quarter of a million party members in his battle of wills with Labour MPs. They, on the other hand, are only backed by nine million voters.
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,219
    JohnLoony said:

    Corbyn is backed by a quarter of a million party members in his battle of wills with Labour MPs. They, on the other hand, are only backed by nine million voters.

    However it seems that most members and many MPs are perfectly happy to back his insane foreign policy with most MPs also e enthusiastic about no welfare cuts. His success has been very revealing about the true Labour approach - I'm not convinced a Miliband govt would have been all that different. And notice also just how close to Corbyn is the Tim Farron leadership of the LDs. The voters should never trust either of them again now they know what lies just below the surface.
  • JohnLoony said:

    Corbyn is backed by a quarter of a million party members in his battle of wills with Labour MPs. They, on the other hand, are only backed by nine million voters.

    Well, they were backed by 9 million voters......and while Putin certainly has his apologists fans on here, the fact that Corbyn is as mistrusted as Putin to do the right thing on Syria by voters in general (net -47 a piece), and not even trusted by Labour voters (-6 net, vs Cameron +70 among Con voters), rather suggests there may be fewer voters in future.

    As for Oldham - I suspect Labour will hold it - strong local candidate and a huge majority......then I remember what happened to 'safe' seats in Scotland....and pause....
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,219
    Latest spanish GE polls pretty dire for PSOE - clear 3rd behind Cons [PP] & Libs {Ciudadanos]

    November 30, 2015:

    PP 27.1
    Ciu 23.0
    PSOE 20.2
    Podemos 16.2
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited November 2015

    A big UKIP message in Oldham to LAB supporters is that a victory for them could help end Corbyn’s leadership. That could resonate and might encourage Labour stay-at-homes.

    In the same way it could encourage some of the many Old Labour voters in Oldham who are disgusted by Corbyn to turn out for the Kippers in the hope of displacing Jezbollah and giving Labour a fighting chance of having a leader than might be a credible opponent to the Tories in the next election. Will it motivate more apathetic Jez lovers or haters, that's the question.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 19,299
    Indigo said:

    A big UKIP message in Oldham to LAB supporters is that a victory for them could help end Corbyn’s leadership. That could resonate and might encourage Labour stay-at-homes.

    In the same way it could encourage some of the many Old Labour voters in Oldham who are disgusted by Corbyn to turn out for the Kippers in the hope of displacing Jezbollah and giving Labour a fighting chance of having a leader than might be a credible opponent to the Tories in the next election. Will it motivate more apathetic Jez lovers or haters, that's the question.
    I agree with that.

    But UKIP's message about ending Corbyn's leadership is the more intriguing question for me. The hard left (i.e. Corbyn's natural constituency) hate the Conservatives, who are their main 'enemy', but seem to utterly despise UKIP.

    I can see many of Corbyn's supporters being far from happy with him if his leadership leads to UKIP gaining seats and prominence. It's one of the few things that might put pressure on him from his natural constituency. Although those people would want him replaced with someone similar, if there is anyone ...
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 19,299
    Off-topic:

    Google has a very Scottish-themed doodle for St Andrew's Day.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    I can see many of Corbyn's supporters being far from happy with him if his leadership leads to UKIP gaining seats and prominence. It's one of the few things that might put pressure on him from his natural constituency. Although those people would want him replaced with someone similar, if there is anyone ...

    Watch out for Seamus Milne being parachuted into a safe seat ...
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,429
    Indigo said:

    I can see many of Corbyn's supporters being far from happy with him if his leadership leads to UKIP gaining seats and prominence. It's one of the few things that might put pressure on him from his natural constituency. Although those people would want him replaced with someone similar, if there is anyone ...

    Watch out for Seamus Milne being parachuted into a safe seat ...
    If that wewre to happen, one would hope that any decent human being , whatever their party would vote for the candidate most likely to defeat him. Its not a given that Labour voters would just turn up and blindly vote for such an odious individual


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11951587/Seumas-Milne-will-finish-Labour-off.html
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    Indigo said:

    A big UKIP message in Oldham to LAB supporters is that a victory for them could help end Corbyn’s leadership. That could resonate and might encourage Labour stay-at-homes.

    In the same way it could encourage some of the many Old Labour voters in Oldham who are disgusted by Corbyn to turn out for the Kippers in the hope of displacing Jezbollah and giving Labour a fighting chance of having a leader than might be a credible opponent to the Tories in the next election. Will it motivate more apathetic Jez lovers or haters, that's the question.
    I agree with that.

    But UKIP's message about ending Corbyn's leadership is the more intriguing question for me. The hard left (i.e. Corbyn's natural constituency) hate the Conservatives, who are their main 'enemy', but seem to utterly despise UKIP.

    I can see many of Corbyn's supporters being far from happy with him if his leadership leads to UKIP gaining seats and prominence. It's one of the few things that might put pressure on him from his natural constituency. Although those people would want him replaced with someone similar, if there is anyone ...
    The "hard left" hate everybody, anger and resentment is what drives them.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 19,299

    Indigo said:

    A big UKIP message in Oldham to LAB supporters is that a victory for them could help end Corbyn’s leadership. That could resonate and might encourage Labour stay-at-homes.

    In the same way it could encourage some of the many Old Labour voters in Oldham who are disgusted by Corbyn to turn out for the Kippers in the hope of displacing Jezbollah and giving Labour a fighting chance of having a leader than might be a credible opponent to the Tories in the next election. Will it motivate more apathetic Jez lovers or haters, that's the question.
    I agree with that.

    But UKIP's message about ending Corbyn's leadership is the more intriguing question for me. The hard left (i.e. Corbyn's natural constituency) hate the Conservatives, who are their main 'enemy', but seem to utterly despise UKIP.

    I can see many of Corbyn's supporters being far from happy with him if his leadership leads to UKIP gaining seats and prominence. It's one of the few things that might put pressure on him from his natural constituency. Although those people would want him replaced with someone similar, if there is anyone ...
    The "hard left" hate everybody, anger and resentment is what drives them.

    The same is true of the 'hard right' as well.
  • Morning all.

    "the former LAB leader is a Tory. The world’s gone mad"

    Worth re-posting this link from yesterday on the mind-set of a typical Momentum activist.

    https://rotherhampolitics.wordpress.com/2015/11/29/rotherham-momentum-meeting-7pm-tuesday-1st-december/
  • Morning all.

    "the former LAB leader is a Tory. The world’s gone mad"

    Worth re-posting this link from yesterday on the mind-set of a typical Momentum activist.

    https://rotherhampolitics.wordpress.com/2015/11/29/rotherham-momentum-meeting-7pm-tuesday-1st-december/

    To be fair, we've been told on pb that former Conservative prime minister Ted Heath was a socialist.
  • Morning all.

    "the former LAB leader is a Tory. The world’s gone mad"

    Worth re-posting this link from yesterday on the mind-set of a typical Momentum activist.

    https://rotherhampolitics.wordpress.com/2015/11/29/rotherham-momentum-meeting-7pm-tuesday-1st-december/

    To be fair, we've been told on pb that former Conservative prime minister Ted Heath was a socialist.
    Ted Heath has been called many things on PB, but I don’t recall that one, nor is it equally comparable to the bizarre state of affairs we now have, where anyone to the right of Jeremy is a Red-Tory and the Guardian is routinely referred to as a Tory rag.

    The world has indeed gone quite mad.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 5,488
    The world hasn't gone mad Mike. Just a vocal section of the Labour party.

    Unless the other sensible members organize and fight Labour re going to be hollowed out by Stop the War and other fellow travellers.
  • Indigo said:

    I can see many of Corbyn's supporters being far from happy with him if his leadership leads to UKIP gaining seats and prominence. It's one of the few things that might put pressure on him from his natural constituency. Although those people would want him replaced with someone similar, if there is anyone ...

    Watch out for Seamus Milne being parachuted into a safe seat ...
    If that wewre to happen, one would hope that any decent human being , whatever their party would vote for the candidate most likely to defeat him. Its not a given that Labour voters would just turn up and blindly vote for such an odious individual


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11951587/Seumas-Milne-will-finish-Labour-off.html
    But a caring father who sent his children to grammar school and Oxbridge......
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 5,488

    Completely OT - just finished bingeing watching Amazon's 'The Man in the High Castle' - absorbing, tho as usual with American series, when they want English speaking Nazis they cast Brits......(and none the worse for that - one of the American male leads is also a Brit...)

    I thought the first episode was so so. After that the show really hits it's stride.

    Narco's on Netflix is also great.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    Indigo said:

    A big UKIP message in Oldham to LAB supporters is that a victory for them could help end Corbyn’s leadership. That could resonate and might encourage Labour stay-at-homes.

    In the same way it could encourage some of the many Old Labour voters in Oldham who are disgusted by Corbyn to turn out for the Kippers in the hope of displacing Jezbollah and giving Labour a fighting chance of having a leader than might be a credible opponent to the Tories in the next election. Will it motivate more apathetic Jez lovers or haters, that's the question.
    I agree with that.

    But UKIP's message about ending Corbyn's leadership is the more intriguing question for me. The hard left (i.e. Corbyn's natural constituency) hate the Conservatives, who are their main 'enemy', but seem to utterly despise UKIP.

    I can see many of Corbyn's supporters being far from happy with him if his leadership leads to UKIP gaining seats and prominence. It's one of the few things that might put pressure on him from his natural constituency. Although those people would want him replaced with someone similar, if there is anyone ...
    The "hard left" hate everybody, anger and resentment is what drives them.

    The same is true of the 'hard right' as well.
    Yes but thankfully we don't have anybody "hard right" remotely near positions of influence.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 19,436
    On the plus side he has finally started wearing a decent suit.

    He faces a big call today. Even McDonnell is urging a free vote on Syria. If that is granted any rebellion loses its sting. If it is not surely even in Labour resignations will follow. My guess is that both Corbyn and the PLP will back off but if I was to choose one of them to precipitate a crisis it would be Corbyn.
  • DavidL said:

    On the plus side he has finally started wearing a decent suit.

    He faces a big call today. Even McDonnell is urging a free vote on Syria. If that is granted any rebellion loses its sting. If it is not surely even in Labour resignations will follow. My guess is that both Corbyn and the PLP will back off but if I was to choose one of them to precipitate a crisis it would be Corbyn.

    Len McCluskey has spoken and incredibly he has proven Ted Heath right.
    ' Who governs Britain?'

    Well actually maybe not quite. 'Who governs Labour?'
  • Morning all.

    "the former LAB leader is a Tory. The world’s gone mad"

    Worth re-posting this link from yesterday on the mind-set of a typical Momentum activist.

    https://rotherhampolitics.wordpress.com/2015/11/29/rotherham-momentum-meeting-7pm-tuesday-1st-december/

    To be fair, we've been told on pb that former Conservative prime minister Ted Heath was a socialist.
    Ted Heath has been called many things on PB, but I don’t recall that one, nor is it equally comparable to the bizarre state of affairs we now have, where anyone to the right of Jeremy is a Red-Tory and the Guardian is routinely referred to as a Tory rag.

    The world has indeed gone quite mad.
    Just like the Hornsey CLP in the late1970s, then, when JC was CLP "organiser" (i.e. Agent). It was full of Trots he encouraged to join. The rest of us did what little we could to keep them away from the voters.

    The next Labour leader will have an impossible task - either rid the Party of its activists, or its pretensions to office. It can never govern again, if indeed it ever did.

  • This is why the broad tent Dave and George have erected must continue.

    We need to be the natural home for these Red Tories.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 19,436

    DavidL said:

    On the plus side he has finally started wearing a decent suit.

    He faces a big call today. Even McDonnell is urging a free vote on Syria. If that is granted any rebellion loses its sting. If it is not surely even in Labour resignations will follow. My guess is that both Corbyn and the PLP will back off but if I was to choose one of them to precipitate a crisis it would be Corbyn.

    Len McCluskey has spoken and incredibly he has proven Ted Heath right.
    ' Who governs Britain?'

    Well actually maybe not quite. 'Who governs Labour?'
    Who governs Labour is in danger of becoming as interesting as who governs the Liberal Democrats. Who cares?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 19,299

    Indigo said:

    A big UKIP message in Oldham to LAB supporters is that a victory for them could help end Corbyn’s leadership. That could resonate and might encourage Labour stay-at-homes.

    In the same way it could encourage some of the many Old Labour voters in Oldham who are disgusted by Corbyn to turn out for the Kippers in the hope of displacing Jezbollah and giving Labour a fighting chance of having a leader than might be a credible opponent to the Tories in the next election. Will it motivate more apathetic Jez lovers or haters, that's the question.
    I agree with that.

    But UKIP's message about ending Corbyn's leadership is the more intriguing question for me. The hard left (i.e. Corbyn's natural constituency) hate the Conservatives, who are their main 'enemy', but seem to utterly despise UKIP.

    I can see many of Corbyn's supporters being far from happy with him if his leadership leads to UKIP gaining seats and prominence. It's one of the few things that might put pressure on him from his natural constituency. Although those people would want him replaced with someone similar, if there is anyone ...
    The "hard left" hate everybody, anger and resentment is what drives them.

    The same is true of the 'hard right' as well.
    Yes but thankfully we don't have anybody "hard right" remotely near positions of influence.

    Indeed. But Corbyn's sudden rise shows it is possible. There are two things stopping it: there are few hard-right MPs (and UKIP's only MP is hardly far-right either), and there is a national disgust for the hard-right ("Nazi's") that wrongly does not exist for the hard left. People can say they support Communism and garner barely a raised eyebrow.

    Can you image McDonnell would have survived if he had thrown Mein Kampf across the dispatch box instead of the Little Red Book?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 19,299
    An interesting story:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34716852

    The NPCC's comments seem quite sensible. Better not to do this sort of thing so you won't have to sue ...
  • Indigo said:

    A big UKIP message in Oldham to LAB supporters is that a victory for them could help end Corbyn’s leadership. That could resonate and might encourage Labour stay-at-homes.

    In the same way it could encourage some of the many Old Labour voters in Oldham who are disgusted by Corbyn to turn out for the Kippers in the hope of displacing Jezbollah and giving Labour a fighting chance of having a leader than might be a credible opponent to the Tories in the next election. Will it motivate more apathetic Jez lovers or haters, that's the question.
    I agree with that.

    But UKIP's message about ending Corbyn's leadership is the more intriguing question for me. The hard left (i.e. Corbyn's natural constituency) hate the Conservatives, who are their main 'enemy', but seem to utterly despise UKIP.

    I can see many of Corbyn's supporters being far from happy with him if his leadership leads to UKIP gaining seats and prominence. It's one of the few things that might put pressure on him from his natural constituency. Although those people would want him replaced with someone similar, if there is anyone ...
    It seems to me that a campaign aimed at ending Corbyn's leadership would be counter productive for Tories.
  • PaulyPauly Posts: 857

    This is why the broad tent Dave and George have erected must continue.

    We need to be the natural home for these Red Tories.

    We have enough europhiles as it is. We can take Kate Hoey but we'll stop after that.
  • Good morning, everyone.

    Not long until we see the result. I wonder if a red win would prove Pyrrhic, especially if they lose a shedload of WWC voters to UKIP. If they win, Corbyn and Mao will continue as before, but if they lose maybe even PLP jellyfish will realise they've got to act.

    Maybe.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 12,470

    This is why the broad tent Dave and George have erected must continue.

    We need to be the natural home for these Red Tories.

    There is a natural floor to Lab support who, if you were to re-write the Lab manifesto in blue ink and stick "Conservative Party Manifesto" on the front of it, would still not vote Cons.

    How many is that? 7m finger in the air. What % is that?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 35,300
    Diane Abbott doing her best to calm things down on R4

    - It must be a whipped vote

    - Jezza decides the whip

    - He will whip against

    - Anyone defying the whip must resign
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    This is why the broad tent Dave and George have erected must continue.

    We need to be the natural home for these Red Tories.

    The heir to Blair and his disciples are sounding more like Blair himself everyday.

  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,303
    Scott_P said:

    Diane Abbott doing her best to calm things down on R4

    - It must be a whipped vote

    - Jezza decides the whip

    - He will whip against

    - Anyone defying the whip must resign


    How many times did Corbyn resign when he defied the whip?

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,645
    Labour got 27% under Foot and Benn and are on 27% under Corbyn and Mcdonnell, Ed got 30% so by definition some of his voters were Tories and not true socialists and therefore Ed must be a Tory too. If Labour is getting 30% or more of the vote it must be contaminated by Tories
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 2,775
    TOPPING said:

    This is why the broad tent Dave and George have erected must continue.

    We need to be the natural home for these Red Tories.

    There is a natural floor to Lab support who, if you were to re-write the Lab manifesto in blue ink and stick "Conservative Party Manifesto" on the front of it, would still not vote Cons.

    How many is that? 7m finger in the air. What % is that?
    The other view to that question is answered with one word.

    Scotland.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 12,470
    Scott_P said:

    Diane Abbott doing her best to calm things down on R4

    - It must be a whipped vote

    - Jezza decides the whip

    - He will whip against

    - Anyone defying the whip must resign

    I think Diane Abbott used the same voice coach as Maggie.
  • Scott_P said:

    Diane Abbott doing her best to calm things down on R4

    - It must be a whipped vote

    - Jezza decides the whip

    - He will whip against

    - Anyone defying the whip must resign

    do you think J +D want to get out, trying to get themselves kicked out and disappear into the East german sunset on the back of a soviet era motorcycle?
  • TOPPING said:

    This is why the broad tent Dave and George have erected must continue.

    We need to be the natural home for these Red Tories.

    There is a natural floor to Lab support who, if you were to re-write the Lab manifesto in blue ink and stick "Conservative Party Manifesto" on the front of it, would still not vote Cons.

    How many is that? 7m finger in the air. What % is that?
    Is all about tarnishing the Labour brand for decades and make the Tory party the natural home for ex Labour voters, just like Lady Thatcher.

    We've made large parts of the country Labour free, let's make the Labour Party history.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 35,300
    @PolhomeEditor: Here's the Labour Party rule which suggests it's the Shadow Cabinet, not the leader, who decides whipping. https://t.co/JbFhoQMB8K
  • This is why the broad tent Dave and George have erected must continue.

    We need to be the natural home for these Red Tories.

    The heir to Blair and his disciples are sounding more like Blair himself everyday.

    Guess what, occupying the centre ground wins elections, that's the reality of it.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,303
    Scott_P said:

    @PolhomeEditor: Here's the Labour Party rule which suggests it's the Shadow Cabinet, not the leader, who decides whipping. https://t.co/JbFhoQMB8K


    That could mean that the leader decides and the cabinet are expected to fall into line.

    Everything is ambiguous with Labour's rules!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,645
    philiph said:

    TOPPING said:

    This is why the broad tent Dave and George have erected must continue.

    We need to be the natural home for these Red Tories.

    There is a natural floor to Lab support who, if you were to re-write the Lab manifesto in blue ink and stick "Conservative Party Manifesto" on the front of it, would still not vote Cons.

    How many is that? 7m finger in the air. What % is that?
    The other view to that question is answered with one word.

    Scotland.

    Scotland was never Labour's true heartland, after all the Tories won most seats in Scotland in the 1950s. Wales, inner London and other metropolitan areas and the Northeast have better claims as those areas have had Labour majorities at virtually every general election since 1918
  • eekeek Posts: 1,962
    edited November 2015
    philiph said:

    TOPPING said:

    This is why the broad tent Dave and George have erected must continue.

    We need to be the natural home for these Red Tories.

    There is a natural floor to Lab support who, if you were to re-write the Lab manifesto in blue ink and stick "Conservative Party Manifesto" on the front of it, would still not vote Cons.

    How many is that? 7m finger in the air. What % is that?
    The other view to that question is answered with one word.

    Scotland.

    Yes and that confirms why the North East is still solid Labour because we don't have an SNP equivalent here.
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    TOPPING said:

    This is why the broad tent Dave and George have erected must continue.

    We need to be the natural home for these Red Tories.

    There is a natural floor to Lab support who, if you were to re-write the Lab manifesto in blue ink and stick "Conservative Party Manifesto" on the front of it, would still not vote Cons.

    How many is that? 7m finger in the air. What % is that?
    Give it time and the floor will be much lower. Many voters who will never vote Tory do so for legacy reasons (Thatcher).

    Labour's message of UKIP being led by Thatcherites did not work particularly well as a significant number of voters were born after she left office. Give it a couple of decades and the Tories should be able to make inroads into Labour's heartlands.
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    'let's make the Labour Party history'

    Nice sentiment but if doing that involves the Tories following the same policies as Labour, what's the point? Or don't you care (I suspect you don't).
  • Good morning, everyone.

    Not long until we see the result. I wonder if a red win would prove Pyrrhic, especially if they lose a shedload of WWC voters to UKIP. If they win, Corbyn and Mao will continue as before, but if they lose maybe even PLP jellyfish will realise they've got to act.

    Maybe.

    Let us hope for a narrow Labour win. It is entirely for the long term good of the country that Corbyn survives to keep destroying the Labour Party right up until 2020. May 2020 is the time for trebuchets and space cannons - not now.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 64,263
    edited November 2015
    runnymede said:

    'let's make the Labour Party history'

    Nice sentiment but if doing that involves the Tories following the same policies as Labour, what's the point? Or don't you care (I suspect you don't).

    I do care. I've been a member of the Tory party for over 18 years, I campaigned earlier on this year to ensure Tory MPs and councillors were (re) elected just like I did when Blair was in power.

    What have you ever done for the Tory party except snipe and sneer from the sidelines ?
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited November 2015

    This is why the broad tent Dave and George have erected must continue.

    We need to be the natural home for these Red Tories.

    The heir to Blair and his disciples are sounding more like Blair himself everyday.

    Guess what, occupying the centre ground wins elections, that's the reality of it.
    If they do that by being "Labour in a Blue Rosette", what's the point. Politics is supposed to be about having a belief about how the country should be run, its not supposed to be about the colour of the rosette.
  • TOPPING said:

    Scott_P said:

    Diane Abbott doing her best to calm things down on R4

    - It must be a whipped vote

    - Jezza decides the whip

    - He will whip against

    - Anyone defying the whip must resign

    I think Diane Abbott used the same voice coach as Maggie.
    I like her voice. Perhaps that's why!

  • CD13CD13 Posts: 4,290
    edited November 2015
    Am I alone in thinking the Oldham result won't matter? No one will change their minds. The Labour "Tories" already know Jezza is a disaster. The true believers will blame the Tory traitors and the stupid voting public misled by a biased press.

    My prediction for what it's worth (not a lot) is Labour by 2,000.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 43,033
    Richard Burgon looks like he could be heading into the shadow cabinet soon enough according to my twitter.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 43,033
    edited November 2015
    Indigo said:

    This is why the broad tent Dave and George have erected must continue.

    We need to be the natural home for these Red Tories.

    The heir to Blair and his disciples are sounding more like Blair himself everyday.

    Guess what, occupying the centre ground wins elections, that's the reality of it.
    If they do that by being "Labour in a Blue Rosette", what's the point. Politics is supposed to be about having a belief about how the country should be run, its not supposed to be about the colour of the rosette.
    Well GO is trying (Except when politically inexpedient to do so) to reduce the size of the state, whereas GB was trying to increase it. You may feel their methods are similiar but there is that crucial difference.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 64,263
    edited November 2015
    Indigo said:

    This is why the broad tent Dave and George have erected must continue.

    We need to be the natural home for these Red Tories.

    The heir to Blair and his disciples are sounding more like Blair himself everyday.

    Guess what, occupying the centre ground wins elections, that's the reality of it.
    If they do that by being "Labour in a Blue Rosette", what's the point. Politics is supposed to be about having a belief about how the country should be run, its not supposed to be about the colour of the rosette.
    Except they aren't.

    Look at how much the Tories have cut spending as a % of gdp. George has done in five years what Thatcher did in eleven years.

    I like the Tory focus and improvement on education.

    This isn't what Labour would offer.
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    'What have you ever done for the Tory party except snipe and sneer from the sidelines'

    I got involved in politics, fighting people like Corbyn, before you were born. But I did that because I wanted to defeat what they stood for, not out of some Man Utd. vs Liverpool 'team loyalty'. You don't appear to think there is any difference.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 43,033
    Blair and Cameron are certainly politically very close, I think Osborne/Brown is politically the main difference, although stylistically they are very similiar.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 20,666
    edited November 2015
    HYUFD said:

    philiph said:

    TOPPING said:

    This is why the broad tent Dave and George have erected must continue.

    We need to be the natural home for these Red Tories.

    There is a natural floor to Lab support who, if you were to re-write the Lab manifesto in blue ink and stick "Conservative Party Manifesto" on the front of it, would still not vote Cons.

    How many is that? 7m finger in the air. What % is that?
    The other view to that question is answered with one word.

    Scotland.

    Scotland was never Labour's true heartland, after all the Tories won most seats in Scotland in the 1950s. Wales, inner London and other metropolitan areas and the Northeast have better claims as those areas have had Labour majorities at virtually every general election since 1918
    Even allowing for the Orange Unionist vote, Clydeside was part of Labour's heartland from 1922 to 2015.
  • runnymede said:

    'What have you ever done for the Tory party except snipe and sneer from the sidelines'

    I got involved in politics, fighting people like Corbyn, before you were born. But I did that because I wanted to defeat what they stood for, not out of some Man Utd. vs Liverpool 'team loyalty'. You don't appear to think there is any difference.

    I do think there's a massive difference between the parties.

    It ain't my fault you ignore that.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,626
    JohnLoony said:

    Bourgeois ideas of liberty, equality, and freedom of speech are degenerate and idiotic hallucinations. The only objective form of reality is to imprison those who seek to destroy the will of the people in cold damp dungeons, and fling dollops of dung at them. It is inevitable that the refreshing and vital fury of the masses will resound clangorously like a whirlwind through the green benches of the running-dog revisionists of the Parliamentary so-called "Labour" Party. Corbynism is full of youth and vitality, sweeping the world with the momentum of an avalanche and the force of a thunderbolt.

    Bravo.
  • I think Michael Dugher might quit today

    @MichaelDugher: Here's a radical idea: why not listen to what the public are saying https://t.co/bxi16KQKV7 #Syria
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 64,263
    edited November 2015
    Gah I'm in a meeting for most of the morning.

    @bbclaurak: Sounds like Shad cabinet moved forward to 10am this morning
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,645
    edited November 2015
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    philiph said:

    TOPPING said:

    This is why the broad tent Dave and George have erected must continue.

    We need to be the natural home for these Red Tories.

    There is a natural floor to Lab support who, if you were to re-write the Lab manifesto in blue ink and stick "Conservative Party Manifesto" on the front of it, would still not vote Cons.

    How many is that? 7m finger in the air. What % is that?
    The other view to that question is answered with one word.

    Scotland.

    Scotland was never Labour's true heartland, after all the Tories won most seats in Scotland in the 1950s. Wales, inner London and other metropolitan areas and the Northeast have better claims as those areas have had Labour majorities at virtually every general election since 1918
    Even allowing for the Orange Unionist vote, Clydeside was part of Labour's heartland from 1922 to 2015.
    That is only one bit of Scotland, the whole of Wales by contrast has always had Labour majorities overall
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 43,033
    edited November 2015
    CD13 said:

    Am I alone in thinking the Oldham result won't matter? No one will change their minds. The Labour "Tories" already know Jezza is a disaster. The true believers will blame the Tory traitors and the stupid voting public misled by a biased press.

    My prediction for what it's worth (not a lot) is Labour by 2,000.

    You can buy Labour on SPIN at 20.5, which equates to them having a 70% prob of winni9ng the seat and is the best odds (Equiv 10/17 odds) - if they finish 3rd then you are in the shit, but that is surely very unlikely.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    HYUFD said:

    philiph said:

    TOPPING said:

    This is why the broad tent Dave and George have erected must continue.

    We need to be the natural home for these Red Tories.

    There is a natural floor to Lab support who, if you were to re-write the Lab manifesto in blue ink and stick "Conservative Party Manifesto" on the front of it, would still not vote Cons.

    How many is that? 7m finger in the air. What % is that?
    The other view to that question is answered with one word.

    Scotland.

    Scotland was never Labour's true heartland, after all the Tories won most seats in Scotland in the 1950s. Wales, inner London and other metropolitan areas and the Northeast have better claims as those areas have had Labour majorities at virtually every general election since 1918
    That's true, though it is a new departure for Labour to have (virtually) no Scottish seats. It will affect Labour's culture in ways that aren't yet appreciated.
  • TGRTGR Posts: 3
    Patrick said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Not long until we see the result. I wonder if a red win would prove Pyrrhic, especially if they lose a shedload of WWC voters to UKIP. If they win, Corbyn and Mao will continue as before, but if they lose maybe even PLP jellyfish will realise they've got to act.

    Maybe.

    Let us hope for a narrow Labour win. It is entirely for the long term good of the country that Corbyn survives to keep destroying the Labour Party right up until 2020. May 2020 is the time for trebuchets and space cannons - not now.
    Hi all...been a lurker for a long long time, but this is too good not to join in.

    There's no way Corbyn is going to lead Labour for five years: he could be out before the end of the week. It's possible he'll lead something - a wider movement under the Momentum banner - but Jezza is going to part company with the parliamentary Labour leadership fairly quickly now, and most likely because they will leave him. How do I know? A hunch only. We have a political system that requires a parliamentary opposition and there hasn't been one these three months. The vacuum cannot go on. Even if Corbyn gets through this week, there are too many other massive hurdles for him, such as Trident, Europe, economic policy. We don't know the Labour position on anything any more.

    Also, people have missed something else about the Syria vote, if it takes place. It'll be curtains for Dave, too, if he loses.
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    'I do think there's a massive difference between the parties'

    Really? One minute you are cheering the Conservatives copying Blair's policies and getting excited about people like Burnham crossing the floor, and the next you say this.

    So is it the case that you only think these 'massive differences' exist between Corbyn-Labour and the Cameron Conservatives/New Labour/Social Democrats?

    I think you would be broadly indifferent between Blair and Cameron, and entirely indifferent if they wore the same team shirt.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    edited November 2015
    Indigo said:

    This is why the broad tent Dave and George have erected must continue.

    We need to be the natural home for these Red Tories.

    The heir to Blair and his disciples are sounding more like Blair himself everyday.

    Guess what, occupying the centre ground wins elections, that's the reality of it.
    If they do that by being "Labour in a Blue Rosette", what's the point. Politics is supposed to be about having a belief about how the country should be run, its not supposed to be about the colour of the rosette.
    I think merely keeping Labour out of office is now the most essential service to the country. (Not that I'm saying that's all the Tories will try to do. But it is essential.)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,645
    Anna Soubry on Corbyn in the Times 'The problem is that he doesn't ever seem to have done a job. The biggest decision he's probably made is what the veggie option would be at the buffet after the Outer Mongolian Basket-Weavers Solidarity meeting'
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,626
    TOPPING said:

    This is why the broad tent Dave and George have erected must continue.

    We need to be the natural home for these Red Tories.

    There is a natural floor to Lab support who, if you were to re-write the Lab manifesto in blue ink and stick "Conservative Party Manifesto" on the front of it, would still not vote Cons.

    How many is that? 7m finger in the air. What % is that?
    Quite so. They can only fall so far, as especially now there is no alternative. Corbyn will either prove as inexplicably popular as he is with members or find that floor, but in terms of percentage if not seats they might still look healthy.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,626
    CD13 said:

    Am I alone in thinking the Oldham result won't matter? No one will change their minds. The Labour "Tories" already know Jezza is a disaster. The true believers will blame the Tory traitors and the stupid voting public misled by a biased press.

    My prediction for what it's worth (not a lot) is Labour by 2,000.

    Sadly it probably will be boring. Hell, the labour chap even seems a sensible sort.
  • TGR said:

    Patrick said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Not long until we see the result. I wonder if a red win would prove Pyrrhic, especially if they lose a shedload of WWC voters to UKIP. If they win, Corbyn and Mao will continue as before, but if they lose maybe even PLP jellyfish will realise they've got to act.

    Maybe.

    Let us hope for a narrow Labour win. It is entirely for the long term good of the country that Corbyn survives to keep destroying the Labour Party right up until 2020. May 2020 is the time for trebuchets and space cannons - not now.
    Hi all...been a lurker for a long long time, but this is too good not to join in.

    There's no way Corbyn is going to lead Labour for five years: he could be out before the end of the week. It's possible he'll lead something - a wider movement under the Momentum banner - but Jezza is going to part company with the parliamentary Labour leadership fairly quickly now, and most likely because they will leave him. How do I know? A hunch only. We have a political system that requires a parliamentary opposition and there hasn't been one these three months. The vacuum cannot go on. Even if Corbyn gets through this week, there are too many other massive hurdles for him, such as Trident, Europe, economic policy. We don't know the Labour position on anything any more.

    Also, people have missed something else about the Syria vote, if it takes place. It'll be curtains for Dave, too, if he loses.
    Welcome TGR!

    I think you are simultaneously exactly right and exactly wrong. Corbyn and his lefty mob have a stranglehold on Labour now. The party rules and the membership make him invulnerable. He's going nowehere. Labour is going nowhere. But...the moderates, the PLP and the lefty voting public probably won't stomach this forever - and something new may well come along. It just won't be called 'Labour'. I think Labour will survive but become a Momentum/Stop The War/Respect type hard lefty rabble with little electoral support. And the left will re-split as the sensibles realise the Labour brand is lost to them and create something new.
  • runnymede said:

    'I do think there's a massive difference between the parties'

    Really? One minute you are cheering the Conservatives copying Blair's policies and getting excited about people like Burnham crossing the floor, and the next you say this.

    So is it the case that you only think these 'massive differences' exist between Corbyn-Labour and the Cameron Conservatives/New Labour/Social Democrats?

    I think you would be broadly indifferent between Blair and Cameron, and entirely indifferent if they wore the same team shirt.

    Where have I cheered the Tories copying Blair's policies ?

    There's a fundamental/massive difference between Blairite labour and Tory policies. Labour increased the size of the state once they stopped following Ken Clarke's plans. The Cameroon agenda is to try and shrink the state.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I never met an appealing Socialist Worker seller. They defined threatening, angry and self-righteous. The sort who'd metaphorically or perhaps literally spit on you on the way past if you didn't buy a copy. If you did - would give you a dirty look, then spit if you didn't look *right on* enough.

    If similar fellows are door-knocking in Oldham - well...

    Reading some of the tweets on OGH's Oldham source twitter feed - the logic seems to be 'anyone who isn't a socialist is therefore a Tory. Ed wasn't a socialist, therefore he was a Tory.....'

    Also pointing out voters views of Corbyn is 'unhelpful' and not to be done if you are 'loyal'.

    I do hope they canvas like that.....

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,626

    Scott_P said:

    Diane Abbott doing her best to calm things down on R4

    - It must be a whipped vote

    - Jezza decides the whip

    - He will whip against

    - Anyone defying the whip must resign


    How many times did Corbyn resign when he defied the whip?

    While I agree his whipping is ludicrous given his history, I presume she mean anyone in the shadow cabinet must resign from it if they defy the whip? In his defence, he never defied from a position of influence.
  • Welcome to pb.com, Mr. TGR.

    I disagree on both counts. Whilst I agree we need an opposition and don't really have one, the PLP are historically incompetent at regicide and Corbyn seems determined to cling on. Even if he goes, the rules are being rewritten constantly to try and perpetuate the hard left's domination.

    I think the media bangs on about Cameron losing the Syria vote last time as a major problem (and I thought then it would be) but most people don't really care. Cameron's already got a sell-by date, and won't go a little early if he loses the vote, though it will dent his reputation.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    We're a broad church :wink:
    RobD said:

    Soon everyone but Corbyn will be a Tory!

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,626
    HYUFD said:

    Anna Soubry on Corbyn in the Times 'The problem is that he doesn't ever seem to have done a job. The biggest decision he's probably made is what the veggie option would be at the buffet after the Outer Mongolian Basket-Weavers Solidarity meeting'

    The socialist meeting of the OMBWSM thank you very much.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 19,299
    TGR said:

    Patrick said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Not long until we see the result. I wonder if a red win would prove Pyrrhic, especially if they lose a shedload of WWC voters to UKIP. If they win, Corbyn and Mao will continue as before, but if they lose maybe even PLP jellyfish will realise they've got to act.

    Maybe.

    Let us hope for a narrow Labour win. It is entirely for the long term good of the country that Corbyn survives to keep destroying the Labour Party right up until 2020. May 2020 is the time for trebuchets and space cannons - not now.
    Hi all...been a lurker for a long long time, but this is too good not to join in.

    (snip)

    Also, people have missed something else about the Syria vote, if it takes place. It'll be curtains for Dave, too, if he loses.
    Welcome!

    Why would it be curtains for Cameron? He survived the previous Syria vote. He'll just shrug and say: "It was the wrong decision, but let us move on."

    The biggest problem long-term for him would be if there was a big backbench rebellion amongst his own MPs, but even that would get drowned out initially by Labour's problems: either a big banckbench rebellion for Corbyn, or a vote against action with timid MPs obeying his whip against their better judgement.

    Cameron's political death has been forecast many times on here. Sometimes it was something to do with a horse, at others buying fish in a Morrisons Store. He's survived all these major scandals and even got a majority this May.

    He is a survivor, and that's partly because people underestimate him. "Oh, he's an Etonian," they say, as if the electorate will gasp in horror. "He's out of touch," they scream, without realising that they're just reinforcing the electorate's view of politicians. "He's a Tory!" they hyperventilate, " as the electorate reply: "at least he's sane."
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,645

    runnymede said:

    'I do think there's a massive difference between the parties'

    Really? One minute you are cheering the Conservatives copying Blair's policies and getting excited about people like Burnham crossing the floor, and the next you say this.

    So is it the case that you only think these 'massive differences' exist between Corbyn-Labour and the Cameron Conservatives/New Labour/Social Democrats?

    I think you would be broadly indifferent between Blair and Cameron, and entirely indifferent if they wore the same team shirt.

    Where have I cheered the Tories copying Blair's policies ?

    There's a fundamental/massive difference between Blairite labour and Tory policies. Labour increased the size of the state once they stopped following Ken Clarke's plans. The Cameroon agenda is to try and shrink the state.
    Blair's premiership, in contrast to Brown's, saw state spending at about the same level as Major's premiership and Blair actually spent less than Major and about the same as the last year's of Thatcher in his early years
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I got one of those Twitter polls yesterday - it had about 600 respondents so far and was 85% in favour of Corbyn... A classic example of the selectorate in action.

    JohnLoony said:

    Corbyn is backed by a quarter of a million party members in his battle of wills with Labour MPs. They, on the other hand, are only backed by nine million voters.

    Well, they were backed by 9 million voters......and while Putin certainly has his apologists fans on here, the fact that Corbyn is as mistrusted as Putin to do the right thing on Syria by voters in general (net -47 a piece), and not even trusted by Labour voters (-6 net, vs Cameron +70 among Con voters), rather suggests there may be fewer voters in future.

    As for Oldham - I suspect Labour will hold it - strong local candidate and a huge majority......then I remember what happened to 'safe' seats in Scotland....and pause....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,645
    Wanderer said:

    HYUFD said:

    philiph said:

    TOPPING said:

    This is why the broad tent Dave and George have erected must continue.

    We need to be the natural home for these Red Tories.

    There is a natural floor to Lab support who, if you were to re-write the Lab manifesto in blue ink and stick "Conservative Party Manifesto" on the front of it, would still not vote Cons.

    How many is that? 7m finger in the air. What % is that?
    The other view to that question is answered with one word.

    Scotland.

    Scotland was never Labour's true heartland, after all the Tories won most seats in Scotland in the 1950s. Wales, inner London and other metropolitan areas and the Northeast have better claims as those areas have had Labour majorities at virtually every general election since 1918
    That's true, though it is a new departure for Labour to have (virtually) no Scottish seats. It will affect Labour's culture in ways that aren't yet appreciated.
    I would agree with that yes
  • RobD said:

    Soon everyone but Corbyn will be a Tory!

    We need to distinguish between the OED definition of Tory i.e. (paraphrased) "shorthand for believing in the principles and policies of the Conservative party", and the Corbynite one i.e. "anyone on the political spectrum to the right of a Corbynite".

    However, the risk in misusing terminology is that the insult is father to the fact. If people who are not Tories keep on being told by Corbynites that they are, then they may conclude that there is merit in the description, particularly if Osborne is trying to recruit such individuals to his big tent.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    This is why the broad tent Dave and George have erected must continue.

    We need to be the natural home for these Red Tories.

    The heir to Blair and his disciples are sounding more like Blair himself everyday.

    Guess what, occupying the centre ground wins elections, that's the reality of it.
    Guess what else, Cameron and his sycophants, of which you are one, have no principles or objectives beyond power.

    Where does he stand on EU?

    Where does he stand on Syria?

    What about green issues after posing with huskies?

    What about immigration which he continually pledges to reduce yet continually rises?

    Cameron's tories are utterly vacuous



  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    HYUFD said:

    Anna Soubry on Corbyn in the Times 'The problem is that he doesn't ever seem to have done a job. The biggest decision he's probably made is what the veggie option would be at the buffet after the Outer Mongolian Basket-Weavers Solidarity meeting'

    Well, maybe. One can say the same about Osborne though? (Anna Soubry probably doesn't.)
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 35,300
    @bbclaurak: Some labour sources say shad cab still at 1pm..... There are some harder things for them to do today than get the diary sorted out.....
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    OMW - that'd be amazingly funny.
    Indigo said:

    I can see many of Corbyn's supporters being far from happy with him if his leadership leads to UKIP gaining seats and prominence. It's one of the few things that might put pressure on him from his natural constituency. Although those people would want him replaced with someone similar, if there is anyone ...

    Watch out for Seamus Milne being parachuted into a safe seat ...
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 4,290
    Mr Eagles,

    The football analogy is the best one for politics.

    The Conservatives are Chelsea. Rich, successful but unloved. When they take a fall, there is gloating from all the non-committed.

    Labour are Manchester City. Everything in their favour - the plucky underdogs, with a surprising and loyal support, but they always cock things up.

    the LDs are Bournemouth. They play nice patterns but they're always unlucky and they always get relegated in the end.


  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,626

    This is why the broad tent Dave and George have erected must continue.

    We need to be the natural home for these Red Tories.

    The heir to Blair and his disciples are sounding more like Blair himself everyday.

    Guess what, occupying the centre ground wins elections, that's the reality of it.
    Guess what else, Cameron and his sycophants, of which you are one, have no principles or objectives beyond power.

    Where does he stand on EU?

    Where does he stand on Syria?

    What about green issues after posing with huskies?

    What about immigration which he continually pledges to reduce yet continually rises?

    Cameron's tories are utterly vacuous

    I thought Cameron's principles re the eu were well known - he's in favour, but is looking for some changes to get more people in favour. Disagree with him sure, I'm for leaving thesedays, but his position I thought was pretty clear.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 130
    Patrick said:

    I think Labour will survive but become a Momentum/Stop The War/Respect type hard lefty rabble with little electoral support. And the left will re-split as the sensibles realise the Labour brand is lost to them and create something new.

    I think that underestimates the passion with which a lot of sensible, moderate people identify with "Labour". They will never abandon its cultural heritage. On the other hand, the Labour Party contains many strands, and some of those (particularly the career politicians) may be tempted to do something rash by the prospect of being out of power for a generation (the generation in which they expect to see their careers prosper).
  • CD13 said:

    Mr Eagles,

    The football analogy is the best one for politics.

    The Conservatives are Chelsea. Rich, successful but unloved. When they take a fall, there is gloating from all the non-committed.

    Labour are Manchester City. Everything in their favour - the plucky underdogs, with a surprising and loyal support, but they always cock things up.

    the LDs are Bournemouth. They play nice patterns but they're always unlucky and they always get relegated in the end.


    I've been a Tory when we were the Millwall of the political world.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    And Gisela.
    Pauly said:

    This is why the broad tent Dave and George have erected must continue.

    We need to be the natural home for these Red Tories.

    We have enough europhiles as it is. We can take Kate Hoey but we'll stop after that.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,626
    Scott_P said:

    @bbclaurak: Some labour sources say shad cab still at 1pm..... There are some harder things for them to do today than get the diary sorted out.....

    Perhaps he intends to hold both, one with only his allies on the shadow cabinet, if they constitute a quorum.
  • This is why the broad tent Dave and George have erected must continue.

    We need to be the natural home for these Red Tories.

    The heir to Blair and his disciples are sounding more like Blair himself everyday.

    Guess what, occupying the centre ground wins elections, that's the reality of it.
    Guess what else, Cameron and his sycophants, of which you are one, have no principles or objectives beyond power.

    Where does he stand on EU?

    Where does he stand on Syria?

    What about green issues after posing with huskies?

    What about immigration which he continually pledges to reduce yet continually rises?

    Cameron's tories are utterly vacuous



    May's defeat really stung you didn't it.

    You're full of more bitter than a Northern pub.


  • He is a survivor, and that's partly because people underestimate him. "Oh, he's an Etonian," they say, as if the electorate will gasp in horror. "He's out of touch," they scream, without realising that they're just reinforcing the electorate's view of politicians. "He's a Tory!" they hyperventilate, " as the electorate reply: "at least he's sane."

    he's even survived being accused (by a member of his own side) of congress with a pig. Certainly a survivor
  • ICYMI last night, How the telegraph described Diane Abbott last night

    @TelePolitics: Corbyn's former lover backs traffic scheme which could see her house value soar above £1million https://t.co/YAfYyoppuy
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    kle4 said:

    This is why the broad tent Dave and George have erected must continue.

    We need to be the natural home for these Red Tories.

    The heir to Blair and his disciples are sounding more like Blair himself everyday.

    Guess what, occupying the centre ground wins elections, that's the reality of it.
    Guess what else, Cameron and his sycophants, of which you are one, have no principles or objectives beyond power.

    Where does he stand on EU?

    Where does he stand on Syria?

    What about green issues after posing with huskies?

    What about immigration which he continually pledges to reduce yet continually rises?

    Cameron's tories are utterly vacuous

    I thought Cameron's principles re the eu were well known - he's in favour, but is looking for some changes to get more people in favour. Disagree with him sure, I'm for leaving thesedays, but his position I thought was pretty clear.
    His position is that he refused to offer a referendum then bowed down under pressure, now he's going through a ridiculous posturing exercise. The man has no principles or backbone beyond wanting to be PM.

  • I never met an appealing Socialist Worker seller. They defined threatening, angry and self-righteous.

    probably caused by the cognitive dissonance resulting from having a lot of experience in sales and marketing (selling the papers) while believing such things to be haram
This discussion has been closed.