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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Whatever happened to the summer LAB leadership contest which l

SystemSystem Posts: 3,967
edited August 3 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Whatever happened to the summer LAB leadership contest which looked all set to be an annual fixture?

One of the things about running a website about political betting is that we need events on which we can risk our money. Summer is generally a quiet time particularly in August but over the past couple of years we have had the spectacle of a Labour leadership contest both of which were won by Mr Corbyn. In August 2016, as well, we were less than three months away from the US presidential election.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 2,999
    There's always the Trump to go in 2017 / 2018 /2019 markets, where the odds for an early departure are rather more interesting.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 2,999
    And second, it appears the insomniac bird gets the first.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 2,999
    edited August 3
    Nigelb said:

    There's always the Trump to go in 2017 / 2018 /2019 markets, where the odds for an early departure are rather more interesting.

    Speaking of which (and thirdly), this is an intriguing comment from Medvedev:
    "Mr Medvedev also warned that new steps would follow aimed at removing President Trump - whom he described as a "non-systemic player" - from power."
    (BBC)
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,252
    Stalin didn't have annual leadership contests. So it will be with Labour.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 2,999
    Now if someone were to introduce a next senior official to leave the White House market....
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,025
    edited August 3
    Nigelb, are there only thee & me either awake or not on holiday?
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 631
    Slowly, slowly, catchee micees. Most members of the Labour Party are well aware of the plan to replace Corbyn this autumn, and who the plotters were. And most of the plotters are well aware that they have been outed, and are well aware that their local CLP's will be, and are being, taken over by the activists of Momentum and Corbyn supporters.

    Revenge, it is often said, is a dish best served cold, and the membership, who were mostly ignored by the MP's in favour of the rich and powerful backers and friends, except when there was a requirement to get the foot soldiers out on the streets, door knocking and canvassing, are now making it clear that whoever holds the short, curlies and other dangly bits, controls who gets back into the best club in London.

    That it was May actually saving Corbyn by calling a totally unnecessary GE and kyboshing the "Return of the Chicken Coup Plotters" makes the dish, oh! so much tastier for the membership.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 6,988
    OchEye said:

    Slowly, slowly, catchee micees. Most members of the Labour Party are well aware of the plan to replace Corbyn this autumn, and who the plotters were. And most of the plotters are well aware that they have been outed, and are well aware that their local CLP's will be, and are being, taken over by the activists of Momentum and Corbyn supporters.

    Revenge, it is often said, is a dish best served cold, and the membership, who were mostly ignored by the MP's in favour of the rich and powerful backers and friends, except when there was a requirement to get the foot soldiers out on the streets, door knocking and canvassing, are now making it clear that whoever holds the short, curlies and other dangly bits, controls who gets back into the best club in London.

    That it was May actually saving Corbyn by calling a totally unnecessary GE and kyboshing the "Return of the Chicken Coup Plotters" makes the dish, oh! so much tastier for the membership.

    What a load of old rubbish. Some members still have doubts about Corbyn, but given the better than expected result in June, most CLPs I have anything to do with are more united than they have been, have got their confidence back and are actively licking their lips at taking on the govt.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 24,943

    Stalin didn't have annual leadership contests. So it will be with Labour.

    Doesn't look like Venezuala will be having them any time soon either:

    Asked whether his political philosophy was closer to President Maduro's or Tony Blair's, Mr Williamson declined to answer but said: "When a government is doing good things, as they certainly were under Hugo Chavez...that's surely a good thing that we should celebrate."

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40810341
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 38,339
    Good morning, everyone.

    The PLP are too busy singing the chorus to "Oh, Jeremy Corbyn" to depose him. Or attempt to. In fairness, they are hobbled by a demented rulebook. They could always split. The question is whether their love of the Labour brand exceeds their loathing of the far left.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,025

    Good morning, everyone.

    The PLP are too busy singing the chorus to "Oh, Jeremy Corbyn" to depose him. Or attempt to. In fairness, they are hobbled by a demented rulebook. They could always split. The question is whether their love of the Labour brand exceeds their loathing of the far left.

    Labour are more likely to split than the Tories, BUT the two splits the party has had have ended in disaster for the splitters. Who now remembers the National Labour party? And there are very few of the SDP still about ...... although of course Vince was.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,252

    Good morning, everyone.

    The PLP are too busy singing the chorus to "Oh, Jeremy Corbyn" to depose him. Or attempt to. In fairness, they are hobbled by a demented rulebook. They could always split. The question is whether their love of the Labour brand exceeds their loathing of the far left.

    there's also the gravy train of 5 yrs pay, super duper pension scheme.. cheap food and drink.. what's not to like...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 38,339
    King Cole, but this time, those with an ideological split with Comrade Corbyn are the majority.

    Mr. Root, the far left abuse?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,025

    King Cole, but this time, those with an ideological split with Comrade Corbyn are the majority.

    Mr. Root, the far left abuse?

    Winning.... or the strong possibility of it ...... is a powerful incentive to unity.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 38,339
    King Cole, disliking the far left enough over 80% of MPs sign a motion of no confidence in such a leader and then wanting to see that same philosophy in action in government is utterly stupid.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 2,581
    Jezza is on a cycling holiday in Croatia, according to the Mirror.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 31,797

    Jezza is on a cycling holiday in Croatia, according to the Mirror.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,025

    King Cole, disliking the far left enough over 80% of MPs sign a motion of no confidence in such a leader and then wanting to see that same philosophy in action in government is utterly stupid.

    I thought there was a significant element of cirticism of competence, pssibly almost as much as policy, in that vote.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 24,943

    Jezza is on a cycling holiday in Croatia, according to the Mirror.

    Sturgeon sent the B-team too:

    While Welsh First Minister Carwyn Jones was able to attend Ms Sturgeon sent her deputy John Swinney to represent Scotland instead.

    Mr Swinney then made matters worse by not wearing a poppy like most of the other distinguished guests and instead putting an SNP lapel badge on his jacket.


    http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/836255/Passchendaele-battle-2017-commemorations-Jeremy-Corbyn-Nicola-Sturgeon-holiday
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 38,339
    King Cole, colour me unconvinced.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,025

    Jezza is on a cycling holiday in Croatia, according to the Mirror.

    TBH, even contemplating going on a cycling holiday in one’s late 60’s is creditable.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,252
    edited August 3
    Scott_P said:

    Jezza is on a cycling holiday in Croatia, according to the Mirror.

    He really is scum. There is no other way to describe him. He probably would have gone had the allies lost.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,025

    King Cole, colour me unconvinced.

    I suspect, Mr D, that on some subjects we are never going to agree. Just a suspicion, of course!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 24,943

    King Cole, colour me unconvinced.

    I suspect, Mr D, that on some subjects we are never going to agree. Just a suspicion, of course!
    It is slightly odd that a purported anti-war campaigner should pass up on one of the single biggest commemorations of its futility.....
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 2,581
    Scott_P said:

    Jezza is on a cycling holiday in Croatia, according to the Mirror.

    She and her colleagues should have attended the funeral service for this ex-serviceman and it wasn't the Germans that killed him.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/benefits-sanction-resulted-in-my-brother-david-clapson-s-death-says-gill-thompson-as-she-pleads-for-a6911386.html
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 38,339
    King Cole, I'm sure that's a justification some, at least, in the PLP will use to excuse their limp-wristed, weak-kneed submission. Doesn't make it right.

    "He's a far left friend of Hamas!"
    "Yes, but he lost the election by a smaller margin than we expected."
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 9,349

    Good morning, everyone.

    The PLP are too busy singing the chorus to "Oh, Jeremy Corbyn" to depose him. Or attempt to. In fairness, they are hobbled by a demented rulebook. They could always split. The question is whether their love of the Labour brand exceeds their loathing of the far left.

    Labour are more likely to split than the Tories, BUT the two splits the party has had have ended in disaster for the splitters. Who now remembers the National Labour party? And there are very few of the SDP still about ...... although of course Vince was.
    And Anna Soubry. :)
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,025

    King Cole, I'm sure that's a justification some, at least, in the PLP will use to excuse their limp-wristed, weak-kneed submission. Doesn't make it right.

    "He's a far left friend of Hamas!"
    "Yes, but he lost the election by a smaller margin than we expected."

    I don’t think that being a 'friend of Hamas’ puts one completely beyond the Pale, given what the Palestinians have to cope with.

    That should not be interpreted as me being a supporter of Hamas' miltary activities.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 6,632

    Scott_P said:

    Jezza is on a cycling holiday in Croatia, according to the Mirror.

    She and her colleagues should have attended the funeral service for this ex-serviceman and it wasn't the Germans that killed him.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/benefits-sanction-resulted-in-my-brother-david-clapson-s-death-says-gill-thompson-as-she-pleads-for-a6911386.html
    That's just awful.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,025

    Good morning, everyone.

    The PLP are too busy singing the chorus to "Oh, Jeremy Corbyn" to depose him. Or attempt to. In fairness, they are hobbled by a demented rulebook. They could always split. The question is whether their love of the Labour brand exceeds their loathing of the far left.

    Labour are more likely to split than the Tories, BUT the two splits the party has had have ended in disaster for the splitters. Who now remembers the National Labour party? And there are very few of the SDP still about ...... although of course Vince was.
    And Anna Soubry. :)
    Indeed. Liz Truss, I seem to recall, too.
  • Good morning, everyone.

    The PLP are too busy singing the chorus to "Oh, Jeremy Corbyn" to depose him. Or attempt to. In fairness, they are hobbled by a demented rulebook. They could always split. The question is whether their love of the Labour brand exceeds their loathing of the far left.

    Labour are more likely to split than the Tories, BUT the two splits the party has had have ended in disaster for the splitters. Who now remembers the National Labour party? And there are very few of the SDP still about ...... although of course Vince was.
    And Anna Soubry. :)
    Chris Grayling too.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 38,339
    King Cole, supporting Palestine/a two-state solution I can understand.

    Describing yourself as a friend of a group that has thrown political opponents and homosexuals from rooftops, and which denies the right of Israel to exist, less so.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 9,349
    Jonathan said:

    OchEye said:

    Slowly, slowly, catchee micees. Most members of the Labour Party are well aware of the plan to replace Corbyn this autumn, and who the plotters were. And most of the plotters are well aware that they have been outed, and are well aware that their local CLP's will be, and are being, taken over by the activists of Momentum and Corbyn supporters.

    Revenge, it is often said, is a dish best served cold, and the membership, who were mostly ignored by the MP's in favour of the rich and powerful backers and friends, except when there was a requirement to get the foot soldiers out on the streets, door knocking and canvassing, are now making it clear that whoever holds the short, curlies and other dangly bits, controls who gets back into the best club in London.

    That it was May actually saving Corbyn by calling a totally unnecessary GE and kyboshing the "Return of the Chicken Coup Plotters" makes the dish, oh! so much tastier for the membership.

    What a load of old rubbish. Some members still have doubts about Corbyn, but given the better than expected result in June, most CLPs I have anything to do with are more united than they have been, have got their confidence back and are actively licking their lips at taking on the govt.
    Yes, it's striking on this generally well-informed site that lots of contributors have no real idea how either major party actually works.

    And in reply to Square Root, I wouldn't interrupt a holiday to go to an event about Paschendaele either. It was a tragic waste, but a very long time ago, and I rreally wonder if next year when we've celebrated the centenary of the end of WW1, it isn't time to move on from it.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,252

    Jonathan said:

    OchEye said:

    Slowly, slowly, catchee micees. Most members of the Labour Party are well aware of the plan to replace Corbyn this autumn, and who the plotters were. And most of the plotters are well aware that they have been outed, and are well aware that their local CLP's will be, and are being, taken over by the activists of Momentum and Corbyn supporters.

    Revenge, it is often said, is a dish best served cold, and the membership, who were mostly ignored by the MP's in favour of the rich and powerful backers and friends, except when there was a requirement to get the foot soldiers out on the streets, door knocking and canvassing, are now making it clear that whoever holds the short, curlies and other dangly bits, controls who gets back into the best club in London.

    That it was May actually saving Corbyn by calling a totally unnecessary GE and kyboshing the "Return of the Chicken Coup Plotters" makes the dish, oh! so much tastier for the membership.

    What a load of old rubbish. Some members still have doubts about Corbyn, but given the better than expected result in June, most CLPs I have anything to do with are more united than they have been, have got their confidence back and are actively licking their lips at taking on the govt.
    Yes, it's striking on this generally well-informed site that lots of contributors have no real idea how either major party actually works.

    And in reply to Square Root, I wouldn't interrupt a holiday to go to an event about Paschendaele either. It was a tragic waste, but a very long time ago, and I rreally wonder if next year when we've celebrated the centenary of the end of WW1, it isn't time to move on from it.
    I am sure you wouldn't. .
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 7,085

    Scott_P said:

    Jezza is on a cycling holiday in Croatia, according to the Mirror.

    She and her colleagues should have attended the funeral service for this ex-serviceman and it wasn't the Germans that killed him.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/benefits-sanction-resulted-in-my-brother-david-clapson-s-death-says-gill-thompson-as-she-pleads-for-a6911386.html
    That's just awful.
    Yes, it is. But, not for the first time, I find myself asking "where was his family?" It clearly sounds like he was in a bad way, but how did it end up in that situation? Was nobody looking out for him?
  • PongPong Posts: 4,268

    Scott_P said:

    Jezza is on a cycling holiday in Croatia, according to the Mirror.

    She and her colleagues should have attended the funeral service for this ex-serviceman and it wasn't the Germans that killed him.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/benefits-sanction-resulted-in-my-brother-david-clapson-s-death-says-gill-thompson-as-she-pleads-for-a6911386.html
    Indeed.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 24,943
    The government has revealed through a job advert how it plans to tackle unfair trade after Brexit.
    A new body called the UK Trade Remedies Organisation will be set up to tackle allegations of unfair competition and investigate complaints.
    The online advert for a digital design lead said the organisation needs to be up and running by October 2018 - ahead of the UK's exit in March 2019.


    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40803267
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 57,177
    edited August 3
    On topic, yup, my recent stint as editor was a bit more stressful than usual given the paucity of betting markets.

    Thank heavens for Donald Trump and his ability to create news and turn into into a thread about him serving a full term.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 10,668

    Scott_P said:

    Jezza is on a cycling holiday in Croatia, according to the Mirror.

    She and her colleagues should have attended the funeral service for this ex-serviceman and it wasn't the Germans that killed him.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/benefits-sanction-resulted-in-my-brother-david-clapson-s-death-says-gill-thompson-as-she-pleads-for-a6911386.html
    Where was the sister in the run-up to this tragic incident?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 10,668

    Jonathan said:

    OchEye said:

    Slowly, slowly, catchee micees. Most members of the Labour Party are well aware of the plan to replace Corbyn this autumn, and who the plotters were. And most of the plotters are well aware that they have been outed, and are well aware that their local CLP's will be, and are being, taken over by the activists of Momentum and Corbyn supporters.

    Revenge, it is often said, is a dish best served cold, and the membership, who were mostly ignored by the MP's in favour of the rich and powerful backers and friends, except when there was a requirement to get the foot soldiers out on the streets, door knocking and canvassing, are now making it clear that whoever holds the short, curlies and other dangly bits, controls who gets back into the best club in London.

    That it was May actually saving Corbyn by calling a totally unnecessary GE and kyboshing the "Return of the Chicken Coup Plotters" makes the dish, oh! so much tastier for the membership.

    What a load of old rubbish. Some members still have doubts about Corbyn, but given the better than expected result in June, most CLPs I have anything to do with are more united than they have been, have got their confidence back and are actively licking their lips at taking on the govt.
    Yes, it's striking on this generally well-informed site that lots of contributors have no real idea how either major party actually works.

    And in reply to Square Root, I wouldn't interrupt a holiday to go to an event about Paschendaele either. It was a tragic waste, but a very long time ago, and I rreally wonder if next year when we've celebrated the centenary of the end of WW1, it isn't time to move on from it.
    But then you, Nick, are not, and never will be, the leader of the opposition. You are not even an MP so pontificating as to what you would or would not do is a worthless exercise.

    You are right about the Labour Party being revitalised. Jezza did well. Much better than expected, but I'm sure that, like Mr Micawber, the majority of members are operating on a "something will turn up" basis, rather than being active supporters of their leader.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    TOPPING said:

    Jonathan said:

    OchEye said:

    Slowly, slowly, catchee micees. Most members of the Labour Party are well aware of the plan to replace Corbyn this autumn, and who the plotters were. And most of the plotters are well aware that they have been outed, and are well aware that their local CLP's will be, and are being, taken over by the activists of Momentum and Corbyn supporters.

    Revenge, it is often said, is a dish best served cold, and the membership, who were mostly ignored by the MP's in favour of the rich and powerful backers and friends, except when there was a requirement to get the foot soldiers out on the streets, door knocking and canvassing, are now making it clear that whoever holds the short, curlies and other dangly bits, controls who gets back into the best club in London.

    That it was May actually saving Corbyn by calling a totally unnecessary GE and kyboshing the "Return of the Chicken Coup Plotters" makes the dish, oh! so much tastier for the membership.

    What a load of old rubbish. Some members still have doubts about Corbyn, but given the better than expected result in June, most CLPs I have anything to do with are more united than they have been, have got their confidence back and are actively licking their lips at taking on the govt.
    Yes, it's striking on this generally well-informed site that lots of contributors have no real idea how either major party actually works.

    And in reply to Square Root, I wouldn't interrupt a holiday to go to an event about Paschendaele either. It was a tragic waste, but a very long time ago, and I rreally wonder if next year when we've celebrated the centenary of the end of WW1, it isn't time to move on from it.

    You are right about the Labour Party being revitalised. Jezza did well. Much better than expected, but I'm sure that, like Mr Micawber, the majority of members are operating on a "something will turn up" basis, rather than being active supporters of their leader.
    Sounds much more like the Conservative Party queuing up to stab the PM in the back rather than actively supporting her .
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 13,746
    edited August 3
    TOPPING said:

    Scott_P said:

    Jezza is on a cycling holiday in Croatia, according to the Mirror.

    She and her colleagues should have attended the funeral service for this ex-serviceman and it wasn't the Germans that killed him.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/benefits-sanction-resulted-in-my-brother-david-clapson-s-death-says-gill-thompson-as-she-pleads-for-a6911386.html
    Where was the sister in the run-up to this tragic incident?
    There's usually a lot more to these stories, or something key that's missing from the single source account of what happened.

    Also interesting to note that the law firm instructed by the family is Leigh Day, who are still under investigation and have had their senior partner struck off for their behaviour in suing British soldiers.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 10,668

    TOPPING said:

    Jonathan said:

    OchEye said:

    Slowly, slowly, catchee micees. Most members of the Labour Party are well aware of the plan to replace Corbyn this autumn, and who the plotters were. And most of the plotters are well aware that they have been outed, and are well aware that their local CLP's will be, and are being, taken over by the activists of Momentum and Corbyn supporters.

    Revenge, it is often said, is a dish best served cold, and the membership, who were mostly ignored by the MP's in favour of the rich and powerful backers and friends, except when there was a requirement to get the foot soldiers out on the streets, door knocking and canvassing, are now making it clear that whoever holds the short, curlies and other dangly bits, controls who gets back into the best club in London.

    That it was May actually saving Corbyn by calling a totally unnecessary GE and kyboshing the "Return of the Chicken Coup Plotters" makes the dish, oh! so much tastier for the membership.

    What a load of old rubbish. Some members still have doubts about Corbyn, but given the better than expected result in June, most CLPs I have anything to do with are more united than they have been, have got their confidence back and are actively licking their lips at taking on the govt.
    Yes, it's striking on this generally well-informed site that lots of contributors have no real idea how either major party actually works.

    And in reply to Square Root, I wouldn't interrupt a holiday to go to an event about Paschendaele either. It was a tragic waste, but a very long time ago, and I rreally wonder if next year when we've celebrated the centenary of the end of WW1, it isn't time to move on from it.

    You are right about the Labour Party being revitalised. Jezza did well. Much better than expected, but I'm sure that, like Mr Micawber, the majority of members are operating on a "something will turn up" basis, rather than being active supporters of their leader.
    Sounds much more like the Conservative Party queuing up to stab the PM in the back rather than actively supporting her .
    Not saying the Cons don't have their problems either. The difference is, many Cons thought Tezza was ok/competent prior to the GE campaign. They have subsequently realised she is useless.

    For Lab, they all knew Jezza was useless to start with.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 582
    On topic, inconvenient that politics isn't set up to serve the betting market, unlike, say horse racing or, to some extent, football. Although the US presidential election comes close.

    Still, there is a whole world out there for market making as the wider PB market matures. Perhaps it is a good time to really get under the skin of the German election in this lull before events bring new markets online?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 3,242
    Morning all :)

    First, thanks for the kind comments about my piece on the London elections from yesterday morning. I think it a little narcissistic to comment on your own thread but those received were interesting and I should point out the piece was started about 10 days after the GE when Labour's position looked stronger than it does now.

    It will be interesting to see if those who turned out in such numbers for Labour in London in June will do so for the local contests next year but the notion that boroughs such as Croydon, Merton, Redbridge and Enfield are now beyond the reach of the Conservatives shows how far London has moved in the last 20 years (I remember the first Labour win in Croydon as being a political earthquake).

    I'll try and do a refresher in the autumn and another next spring. It will be fascinating to see if we have any early autumn by-elections in London - those we've had have tended to be in strong Labour areas (St Helier in Merton) and tell us nothing.

    Second, it would be good if those who contribute daily or regularly actually tried writing a thread of their own. A number of people always seem to have something to say so why not put up a topic. I'd make three points:

    1) Don't make it a party political polemic or rant.
    2) Put in at least two 1980s pop references.
    3) Put in at least one reference to either Kylie Minogue or Star Trek. I did toy with "there's more chance of Labour winning Westminster than the Romulans conquering the Federation" but as I already had Kylie (so to speak), I felt it superfluous.

    On the header, well yes, it's been a frenetic political period since 2014 (two GEs and two huge referenda plus a US election) and I suspect all those actively involved will welcome a period of calm.

    It gives us all an opportunity to think beyond the baseline and consider other topics.

    There are big questions about how we live and how we want to live and what kind of people and society we want to be which don't get much airing (usually because they are challenging and there are no easy answers).
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 7,085
    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    Scott_P said:

    Jezza is on a cycling holiday in Croatia, according to the Mirror.

    She and her colleagues should have attended the funeral service for this ex-serviceman and it wasn't the Germans that killed him.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/benefits-sanction-resulted-in-my-brother-david-clapson-s-death-says-gill-thompson-as-she-pleads-for-a6911386.html
    Where was the sister in the run-up to this tragic incident?
    There's usually a lot more to these stories, or something key that's missing from the single source account of what happened.

    Also interesting to note that the law firm instructed by the family is Leigh Day, who are still under investigation and have had their senior partner struck off for their behaviour in suing British soldiers.
    They also suspended two employees for chasing work at Grenfell Tower:

    https://tinyurl.com/y8lluoov
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,025

    King Cole, supporting Palestine/a two-state solution I can understand.

    Describing yourself as a friend of a group that has thrown political opponents and homosexuals from rooftops, and which denies the right of Israel to exist, less so.

    Agree, although the whole of what we call the Middle East seems to be de-civilising itself at a frightening rate.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 4,011
    Trump may be a tit, but it's amusing to see the BBC having a hissy fit every time he coughs.

    This isn't the sort of things that people like us do! he's behaving like an uneducated oaf, the man is uncouth. Yes, and that's possibly why so many voted for him. He's doing what it said on the tin - behaving like a spoilt business tycoon with no moderating voices around him.

    So here's a clue to the hysterics. Don't react as if every detail is infamy.

    I may be a bad person, but I suspect that if the Hillary camp had been offered bad stuff on Trump by the Russians, they'd have jumped at the chance. They'd have done a better job at hiding it, though. And of course, she knows how to behave.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 41,375
    RIght lets hope interest rates stay at 0.25% today for the FTBs for my house x - They'll be applying about now.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 1,582
    Pulpstar said:

    RIght lets hope interest rates stay at 0.25% today for the FTBs for my house x - They'll be applying about now.

    Oooh - naked self-interest - can't say I blame you! Might rattle a few wrinkly PB tories' cages though. :lol:
  • Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 490
    @stodge

    "There are big questions about how we live and how we want to live and what kind of people and society we want to be which don't get much airing (usually because they are challenging and there are no easy answers)."

    Indeed... and what are those big questions? My starters for 10, expressed as issues rather than questions:

    - governance in an increasingly interdependent world
    - the moral hazard of state welfare (and state underwriting of financial institutions)
    - the relative rewards for capital and labour in an increasingly automated world
    - can Leoinid Slutsky take City straight back into the premiership?

    OK, the last one was a question, but it's much the most critical.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 3,242
    CD13 said:

    Trump may be a tit, but it's amusing to see the BBC having a hissy fit every time he coughs.

    This isn't the sort of things that people like us do! he's behaving like an uneducated oaf, the man is uncouth. Yes, and that's possibly why so many voted for him. He's doing what it said on the tin - behaving like a spoilt business tycoon with no moderating voices around him.

    So here's a clue to the hysterics. Don't react as if every detail is infamy.

    I may be a bad person, but I suspect that if the Hillary camp had been offered bad stuff on Trump by the Russians, they'd have jumped at the chance. They'd have done a better job at hiding it, though. And of course, she knows how to behave.

    Apart from the usual unhelpful dig at the BBC, the relevant point is that the western world looks to Washington for leadership and direction and at the moment the American administration looks shambolic and inwardly-focused.

    North Korea is a problem which directly concerns Japan, South Korea an other pro-Washington states in Asia and none will welcome a deterioration in Sino-American relations but Trumps' tweets on China aren't encouraging.

    The one encouraging (and concerning) sign is the rise of the civilian (and non-civilian) military within the Trump Administration. I suspect that with Kelly and McMaster calling the shots (so to speak), there will be a settling down but it will mark a divergence from traditional civilian-run party-led Governments and the emergence of a more technocratic non-partisan administration.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 10,668
    edited August 3

    Pulpstar said:

    RIght lets hope interest rates stay at 0.25% today for the FTBs for my house x - They'll be applying about now.

    Oooh - naked self-interest - can't say I blame you! Might rattle a few wrinkly PB tories' cages though. :lol:
    In a nutshell you have illustrated why the Left is only turned to in extremis when the Right is blowing off its feet with a 12-bore. No idea whatsoever of what makes humans tick.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 1,582
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    First, thanks for the kind comments about my piece on the London elections from yesterday morning. I think it a little narcissistic to comment on your own thread but those received were interesting and I should point out the piece was started about 10 days after the GE when Labour's position looked stronger than it does now.

    It will be interesting to see if those who turned out in such numbers for Labour in London in June will do so for the local contests next year but the notion that boroughs such as Croydon, Merton, Redbridge and Enfield are now beyond the reach of the Conservatives shows how far London has moved in the last 20 years (I remember the first Labour win in Croydon as being a political earthquake).

    I'll try and do a refresher in the autumn and another next spring. It will be fascinating to see if we have any early autumn by-elections in London - those we've had have tended to be in strong Labour areas (St Helier in Merton) and tell us nothing.

    Second, it would be good if those who contribute daily or regularly actually tried writing a thread of their own. A number of people always seem to have something to say so why not put up a topic. I'd make three points:

    1) Don't make it a party political polemic or rant.
    2) Put in at least two 1980s pop references.
    3) Put in at least one reference to either Kylie Minogue or Star Trek. I did toy with "there's more chance of Labour winning Westminster than the Romulans conquering the Federation" but as I already had Kylie (so to speak), I felt it superfluous.

    On the header, well yes, it's been a frenetic political period since 2014 (two GEs and two huge referenda plus a US election) and I suspect all those actively involved will welcome a period of calm.

    It gives us all an opportunity to think beyond the baseline and consider other topics.

    There are big questions about how we live and how we want to live and what kind of people and society we want to be which don't get much airing (usually because they are challenging and there are no easy answers).

    Interesting background Stodge, thanks - and well done on an interesting and engaging thread-header!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 1,582
    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RIght lets hope interest rates stay at 0.25% today for the FTBs for my house x - They'll be applying about now.

    Oooh - naked self-interest - can't say I blame you! Might rattle a few wrinkly PB tories' cages though. :lol:
    In a nutshell you have illustrated why the Left is only turned to in extremis when the Right is blowing off its feet with a 12-bore. No idea whatsoever of what makes humans tick.
    Thank-you for your feedback!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 14,667
    edited August 3


    I wonder how long the Telegraph will keep up its very pro-Brexit line. The written press is one of Brexit's last lines of defence.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 10,668

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RIght lets hope interest rates stay at 0.25% today for the FTBs for my house x - They'll be applying about now.

    Oooh - naked self-interest - can't say I blame you! Might rattle a few wrinkly PB tories' cages though. :lol:
    In a nutshell you have illustrated why the Left is only turned to in extremis when the Right is blowing off its feet with a 12-bore. No idea whatsoever of what makes humans tick.
    Thank-you for your feedback!
    Here to help.
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 665
    Of course, when you exist in the totally binary world in which Mary Riddell seems to reside, this might seem like a sensible statement.
    When you understand that the world isn't binary, and there are many degrees of grey between the black and white proposals she insists are the only choices, you write her off as an just another ill informed vessel.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 14,667
    TonyE said:

    Of course, when you exist in the totally binary world in which Mary Riddell seems to reside, this might seem like a sensible statement.
    When you understand that the world isn't binary, and there are many degrees of grey between the black and white proposals she insists are the only choices, you write her off as an just another ill informed vessel.
    As you seem to be well-informed, could you enlighten us on how the Irish border question will be resolved?
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 4,011
    Mr Stodge,

    Trump isn't likely to be a good president. On that we agree. He could learn by listening to wiser counsel - we can only hope so. However , some of the criticism verges on the hysterical, because it concerns his uncouth manner rather than the crime. And being uncouth will make him a special target for some.

    I'd be interested in what the Russians thought they had on Hillary. it wouldn't be her table manners.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,025
    Pulpstar said:

    RIght lets hope interest rates stay at 0.25% today for the FTBs for my house x - They'll be applying about now.

    Grandson One and his fiancée have just, after solicitors messing about since April, moved into their first house. Mortgage seems horrendous, although they seem relaxed about it.
    Both teachers, so presumably jobs are reasonably secure.

    Best of luck with your purchasers, Mr P.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 14,667
    https://www.ft.com/content/b3d62bcc-7713-11e7-90c0-90a9d1bc9691

    The British state is steaming towards its third disaster in 15 years, after the Iraq war and the financial crisis.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 41,375

    Pulpstar said:

    RIght lets hope interest rates stay at 0.25% today for the FTBs for my house x - They'll be applying about now.

    Grandson One and his fiancée have just, after solicitors messing about since April, moved into their first house. Mortgage seems horrendous, although they seem relaxed about it.
    Both teachers, so presumably jobs are reasonably secure.

    Best of luck with your purchasers, Mr P.
    My house is roughly the same size as @Casino_Royale's but worth around a third of the value !
    Mind you my onward purchase is such a bargain I daren't post it up here :)
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 665

    TonyE said:

    Of course, when you exist in the totally binary world in which Mary Riddell seems to reside, this might seem like a sensible statement.
    When you understand that the world isn't binary, and there are many degrees of grey between the black and white proposals she insists are the only choices, you write her off as an just another ill informed vessel.
    As you seem to be well-informed, could you enlighten us on how the Irish border question will be resolved?
    There are many possibilities, but the most likely is that for commercial customs declarations the TIR system will be employed, electronically declared customs. As this is a UK wide issue, it can be dealt with at a full national level.
    For Immigration, I suspect NI will remain a free EU movement area like other anomalies in and around the EU, but extension of that to the mainland will be controlled at Ports and Airports (as is largely is now - you cannot travel without ID). Both sides would not want a hard border, so it might be less contentious than it currently appears.

    I suspect that the UK govt will allow NI greater freedom to harmonise certain rules with the EU, via the Stormont assembly when it is re-established also. But this will depend on whether the NI politicians can agree to sensible terms for doing so. If they can't then the situation does become much more difficult.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 3,406

    https://www.ft.com/content/b3d62bcc-7713-11e7-90c0-90a9d1bc9691

    The British state is steaming towards its third disaster in 15 years, after the Iraq war and the financial crisis.

    Yes. And here is Brexit summed up in two sentences ....

    "This generation of mostly former public schoolboys didn’t want Brussels running Britain. That was their caste’s prerogative."
  • stodgestodge Posts: 3,242
    CD13 said:

    Mr Stodge,

    Trump isn't likely to be a good president. On that we agree. He could learn by listening to wiser counsel - we can only hope so. However , some of the criticism verges on the hysterical, because it concerns his uncouth manner rather than the crime. And being uncouth will make him a special target for some.

    I'd be interested in what the Russians thought they had on Hillary. it wouldn't be her table manners.

    I do agree he has challenged, if not shattered, some of what we had previously considered the normal practices for a head of Government.

    That being said, he is more a reversion to how things were done a while ago. The promotion of friends and family (being the only ones that could be trusted) and the by-passing of the traditional Government machine have been seen before. It is the mark of the populist outsider who is deeply distrusting of Government and prefers instead to have less experienced but more personally "known" people to deal with.

    Oddly enough, I see shades (but only shades) of how the Third Reich functioned as a Government in Trump's behaviour. I'm not for a nanosecond suggesting any ideological similarities but the practice of moving favour from person to person and keeping everyone off balance and vying for that favour is basically how the Reich operated in Government.

    Washington isn't going to play those games and as the GOP has failed to control Trump, the military (in the shape of Kelly and McMaster) have taken over. The one area where Trump lacks influence is with the military in terms of not having within his immediate circle a military man so he has had to go beyond and Kelly has come in to restore order to the West Wing and McMaster has slowly edged out the Trump sycophants and now runs the NSC in a much more organised way.

    Again, oddly enough, in the day to day functioning of Government, Trump is becoming largely irrelevant and we're seeing the evolution of a more technocratic administration which will, I think, serve America and the world well in the months to come.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,025
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RIght lets hope interest rates stay at 0.25% today for the FTBs for my house x - They'll be applying about now.

    Grandson One and his fiancée have just, after solicitors messing about since April, moved into their first house. Mortgage seems horrendous, although they seem relaxed about it.
    Both teachers, so presumably jobs are reasonably secure.

    Best of luck with your purchasers, Mr P.
    My house is roughly the same size as @Casino_Royale's but worth around a third of the value !
    Mind you my onward purchase is such a bargain I daren't post it up here :)
    Are you/going to be outside the SE of England?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 16,438

    https://www.ft.com/content/b3d62bcc-7713-11e7-90c0-90a9d1bc9691

    The British state is steaming towards its third disaster in 15 years, after the Iraq war and the financial crisis.

    Yes. And here is Brexit summed up in two sentences ....

    "This generation of mostly former public schoolboys didn’t want Brussels running Britain. That was their caste’s prerogative."
    A strong contender for the silliest comment made on Brexit, in a crowded field.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 10,036

    I really struggle to understand this assumption that asking people to vote again would result in the "correct" outcome.

    My guess is that LEAVE would win by an even bigger margin than 2016.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 41,375
    edited August 3

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RIght lets hope interest rates stay at 0.25% today for the FTBs for my house x - They'll be applying about now.

    Grandson One and his fiancée have just, after solicitors messing about since April, moved into their first house. Mortgage seems horrendous, although they seem relaxed about it.
    Both teachers, so presumably jobs are reasonably secure.

    Best of luck with your purchasers, Mr P.
    My house is roughly the same size as @Casino_Royale's but worth around a third of the value !
    Mind you my onward purchase is such a bargain I daren't post it up here :)
    Are you/going to be outside the SE of England?
    Yep. East Mids.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 1,582

    https://www.ft.com/content/b3d62bcc-7713-11e7-90c0-90a9d1bc9691

    The British state is steaming towards its third disaster in 15 years, after the Iraq war and the financial crisis.

    Yes. And here is Brexit summed up in two sentences ....

    "This generation of mostly former public schoolboys didn’t want Brussels running Britain. That was their caste’s prerogative."
    A strong contender for the silliest comment made on Brexit, in a crowded field.
    Not a patch on 'Have our cake and eat it', 'No deal is better than a bad deal' or 'Brexit means Brexit'. Now those really were purile.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,025
    stodge said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Stodge,

    Trump isn't likely to be a good president. On that we agree. He could learn by listening to wiser counsel - we can only hope so. However , some of the criticism verges on the hysterical, because it concerns his uncouth manner rather than the crime. And being uncouth will make him a special target for some.

    I'd be interested in what the Russians thought they had on Hillary. it wouldn't be her table manners.

    I do agree he has challenged, if not shattered, some of what we had previously considered the normal practices for a head of Government.

    That being said, he is more a reversion to how things were done a while ago. The promotion of friends and family (being the only ones that could be trusted) and the by-passing of the traditional Government machine have been seen before. It is the mark of the populist outsider who is deeply distrusting of Government and prefers instead to have less experienced but more personally "known" people to deal with.

    Oddly enough, I see shades (but only shades) of how the Third Reich functioned as a Government in Trump's behaviour. I'm not for a nanosecond suggesting any ideological similarities but the practice of moving favour from person to person and keeping everyone off balance and vying for that favour is basically how the Reich operated in Government.

    Washington isn't going to play those games and as the GOP has failed to control Trump, the military (in the shape of Kelly and McMaster) have taken over. The one area where Trump lacks influence is with the military in terms of not having within his immediate circle a military man so he has had to go beyond and Kelly has come in to restore order to the West Wing and McMaster has slowly edged out the Trump sycophants and now runs the NSC in a much more organised way.

    Again, oddly enough, in the day to day functioning of Government, Trump is becoming largely irrelevant and we're seeing the evolution of a more technocratic administration which will, I think, serve America and the world well in the months to come.

    Economically, in the short-term at least, the US seems to be doing well. What was that phrase “It’s the economy, stupid!'
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 14,667
    GIN1138 said:


    I really struggle to understand this assumption that asking people to vote again would result in the "correct" outcome.

    My guess is that LEAVE would win by an even bigger margin than 2016.
    Who from a broken down and demoralised band of Brexiteers would be capable of leading an inspirational charge over the precipice?

    A second referendum would only come about in circumstances where Brexit had already failed, and already been seen to fail. That's why a second referendum is unwinnable for Leave.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 10,036

    https://www.ft.com/content/b3d62bcc-7713-11e7-90c0-90a9d1bc9691

    The British state is steaming towards its third disaster in 15 years, after the Iraq war and the financial crisis.

    Yes. And here is Brexit summed up in two sentences ....

    "This generation of mostly former public schoolboys didn’t want Brussels running Britain. That was their caste’s prerogative."
    A strong contender for the silliest comment made on Brexit, in a crowded field.
    Not a patch on 'Have our cake and eat it', 'No deal is better than a bad deal' or 'Brexit means Brexit'. Now those really were purile.

    I thought "no deal is better than a bad deal" was reasonable.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 16,438
    GIN1138 said:

    I really struggle to understand this assumption that asking people to vote again would result in the "correct" outcome.

    My guess is that LEAVE would win by an even bigger margin than 2016.

    The article is very odd because it starts off with some interesting analysis and then plonks the idea of a referendum in at the end, with zero explanation of what the referendum would be about or how it would relate to what our EU friends might be prepared to accept. It's yet another bizarre example - from someone who should know better - of the phenomenon of UK commentators seeming to think that the nature of Brexit will be entirely determined by the UK.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 10,036

    GIN1138 said:


    I really struggle to understand this assumption that asking people to vote again would result in the "correct" outcome.

    My guess is that LEAVE would win by an even bigger margin than 2016.
    Who from a broken down and demoralised band of Brexiteers would be capable of leading an inspirational charge over the precipice?

    A second referendum would only come about in circumstances where Brexit had already failed, and already been seen to fail. That's why a second referendum is unwinnable for Leave.
    Lordy, lordy. "Unwinnable"? Really?

    You've learned absolutely nothing over the past 2-3 years have you?
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 3,406

    https://www.ft.com/content/b3d62bcc-7713-11e7-90c0-90a9d1bc9691

    The British state is steaming towards its third disaster in 15 years, after the Iraq war and the financial crisis.

    Yes. And here is Brexit summed up in two sentences ....

    "This generation of mostly former public schoolboys didn’t want Brussels running Britain. That was their caste’s prerogative."
    A strong contender for the silliest comment made on Brexit, in a crowded field.
    Time will tell.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 5,198
    GIN1138 said:


    I really struggle to understand this assumption that asking people to vote again would result in the "correct" outcome.

    My guess is that LEAVE would win by an even bigger margin than 2016.
    There won't be a second referendum until the polls show that the electorate clearly want to Remain. At which point the MPs will grant such a referendum.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 2,999
    stodge said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Stodge,

    Trump isn't likely to be a good president. On that we agree. He could learn by listening to wiser counsel - we can only hope so. However , some of the criticism verges on the hysterical, because it concerns his uncouth manner rather than the crime. And being uncouth will make him a special target for some.

    I'd be interested in what the Russians thought they had on Hillary. it wouldn't be her table manners.

    I do agree he has challenged, if not shattered, some of what we had previously considered the normal practices for a head of Government....

    Washington isn't going to play those games and as the GOP has failed to control Trump, the military (in the shape of Kelly and McMaster) have taken over. The one area where Trump lacks influence is with the military in terms of not having within his immediate circle a military man so he has had to go beyond and Kelly has come in to restore order to the West Wing and McMaster has slowly edged out the Trump sycophants and now runs the NSC in a much more organised way.

    Again, oddly enough, in the day to day functioning of Government, Trump is becoming largely irrelevant and we're seeing the evolution of a more technocratic administration which will, I think, serve America and the world well in the months to come.

    I think the assumption that the military have 'taken over' might be a bit of a stretch.
    Certainly Kelly and McMaster seem to be in the ascendant, but it will be interesting to watch how long McMaster in particular lasts, as he has steadily been removing Trump loyalists from the NSC...

    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/a-national-security-council-staffer-is-forced-out-over-a-controversial-memo/535725/

    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/hr-mcmaster-cleans-house-at-the-national-security-council/535767/

    Sooner or later, I expect Trump to see this him getting above himself (there are plenty in the White House who will drip that poison in his ear), and fire him.
    In the Trump universe, subservience is all. Those who forget that don't last.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 8,094
    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RIght lets hope interest rates stay at 0.25% today for the FTBs for my house x - They'll be applying about now.

    Oooh - naked self-interest - can't say I blame you! Might rattle a few wrinkly PB tories' cages though. :lol:
    In a nutshell you have illustrated why the Left is only turned to in extremis when the Right is blowing off its feet with a 12-bore. No idea whatsoever of what makes humans tick.
    Regurgitated quinoa and kum-bay-ah around the fire-pit after a day protesting against the Tories right?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 10,036

    GIN1138 said:


    I really struggle to understand this assumption that asking people to vote again would result in the "correct" outcome.

    My guess is that LEAVE would win by an even bigger margin than 2016.
    There won't be a second referendum until the polls show that the electorate clearly want to Remain. At which point the MPs will grant such a referendum.
    But that's assuming polls are right... Bearing in mind there was actually a poll on the day we voted to leave showing we would remain by 10%...
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 3,406


    ... how it would relate to what our EU friends might be prepared to accept. It's yet another bizarre example - from someone who should know better - of the phenomenon of UK commentators seeming to think that the nature of Brexit will be entirely determined by the UK.

    In a way the nature of Brexit is being determined by the UK because we appear to be making a mess of the negotiations and heading heading for WTO. That is our choice. No one made us appoint amateurs - we selected the Three Brexiteers, the EU did not make us do it.

    I think that our behaviour and total lack of preparedness have severely diminished our reputation as a competent nation and having a buffoon as Foreign Sec is not exactly helpful either.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 1,582
    Mortimer said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RIght lets hope interest rates stay at 0.25% today for the FTBs for my house x - They'll be applying about now.

    Oooh - naked self-interest - can't say I blame you! Might rattle a few wrinkly PB tories' cages though. :lol:
    In a nutshell you have illustrated why the Left is only turned to in extremis when the Right is blowing off its feet with a 12-bore. No idea whatsoever of what makes humans tick.
    Regurgitated quinoa and kum-bay-ah around the fire-pit after a day protesting against the Tories right?
    Ah yes, you certainly have nailed what makes progressives like me tick, well done.

    Meanwhile, if anyone is interested in sensible discussion, let me know :smile:
  • AllanAllan Posts: 262

    Good morning, everyone.

    The PLP are too busy singing the chorus to "Oh, Jeremy Corbyn" to depose him. Or attempt to. In fairness, they are hobbled by a demented rulebook. They could always split. The question is whether their love of the Labour brand exceeds their loathing of the far left.

    Labour are more likely to split than the Tories, BUT the two splits the party has had have ended in disaster for the splitters. Who now remembers the National Labour party? And there are very few of the SDP still about ...... although of course Vince was.
    And Anna Soubry. :)
    Indeed. Liz Truss, I seem to recall, too.
    Liz Truss was in the Liberal Democrats at Uni and after.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 1,582
    GIN1138 said:

    https://www.ft.com/content/b3d62bcc-7713-11e7-90c0-90a9d1bc9691

    The British state is steaming towards its third disaster in 15 years, after the Iraq war and the financial crisis.

    Yes. And here is Brexit summed up in two sentences ....

    "This generation of mostly former public schoolboys didn’t want Brussels running Britain. That was their caste’s prerogative."
    A strong contender for the silliest comment made on Brexit, in a crowded field.
    Not a patch on 'Have our cake and eat it', 'No deal is better than a bad deal' or 'Brexit means Brexit'. Now those really were purile.

    I thought "no deal is better than a bad deal" was reasonable.
    Ok, I'll concede that was the best of the three, even though I disagreed with it obv! :lol:
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 10,036


    ... how it would relate to what our EU friends might be prepared to accept. It's yet another bizarre example - from someone who should know better - of the phenomenon of UK commentators seeming to think that the nature of Brexit will be entirely determined by the UK.

    In a way the nature of Brexit is being determined by the UK because we appear to be making a mess of the negotiations and heading heading for WTO. That is our choice. No one made us appoint amateurs - we selected the Three Brexiteers, the EU did not make us do it.

    I think that our behaviour and total lack of preparedness have severely diminished our reputation as a competent nation and having a buffoon as Foreign Sec is not exactly helpful either.
    Who says the UK isn't prepared for the negotiations?

    The UK isn't giving in to the EU's every demand but that's different to not being prepared...
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 17,006
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    First, thanks for the kind comments about my piece on the London elections from yesterday morning. I think it a little narcissistic to comment on your own thread but those received were interesting and I should point out the piece was started about 10 days after the GE when Labour's position looked stronger than it does now.

    It will be interesting to see if those who turned out in such numbers for Labour in London in June will do so for the local contests next year but the notion that boroughs such as Croydon, Merton, Redbridge and Enfield are now beyond the reach of the Conservatives shows how far London has moved in the last 20 years (I remember the first Labour win in Croydon as being a political earthquake).

    I'll try and do a refresher in the autumn and another next spring. It will be fascinating to see if we have any early autumn by-elections in London - those we've had have tended to be in strong Labour areas (St Helier in Merton) and tell us nothing.

    Second, it would be good if those who contribute daily or regularly actually tried writing a thread of their own. A number of people always seem to have something to say so why not put up a topic. I'd make three points:

    1) Don't make it a party political polemic or rant.
    2) Put in at least two 1980s pop references.
    3) Put in at least one reference to either Kylie Minogue or Star Trek. I did toy with "there's more chance of Labour winning Westminster than the Romulans conquering the Federation" but as I already had Kylie (so to speak), I felt it superfluous.

    On the header, well yes, it's been a frenetic political period since 2014 (two GEs and two huge referenda plus a US election) and I suspect all those actively involved will welcome a period of calm.

    It gives us all an opportunity to think beyond the baseline and consider other topics.

    There are big questions about how we live and how we want to live and what kind of people and society we want to be which don't get much airing (usually because they are challenging and there are no easy answers).

    I absolutely agree that more should try their hand at header writing. It's a bracing experience.

    On your other points: I don't think there's any problem in commenting on your own thread if you are asked direct questions by commenters or once everyone else has had a fair chance to say their piece.

    Headers can provoke but they must also inform. Great provocation requires great information. (Equally, posters who are greatly provoked should always consider whether the problem is theirs rather than the header writer's, and what information has been given along with the provocation.)

    One of the pleasures of writing headers is sneaking in cultural references and seeing whether they are spotted.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 17,006
    Meanwhile, a tweet that's important as much for who tweeted it as for what it says:

  • AllanAllan Posts: 262
    edited August 3
    GIN1138 said:

    I really struggle to understand this assumption that asking people to vote again would result in the "correct" outcome.
    Comes from that "resistance is futile" school of Borg/Remain thought that membership of the EU is inevitable?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 17,006
    On topic, both Labour and the Conservatives have decided that they won enough in June to making revisiting the leadership unnecessary for now. Both are wrong.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,025
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RIght lets hope interest rates stay at 0.25% today for the FTBs for my house x - They'll be applying about now.

    Grandson One and his fiancée have just, after solicitors messing about since April, moved into their first house. Mortgage seems horrendous, although they seem relaxed about it.
    Both teachers, so presumably jobs are reasonably secure.

    Best of luck with your purchasers, Mr P.
    My house is roughly the same size as @Casino_Royale's but worth around a third of the value !
    Mind you my onward purchase is such a bargain I daren't post it up here :)
    Are you/going to be outside the SE of England?
    Yep. East Mids.
    Sounds like a good idea. Prices round here (N Essex) are going crazy. Two-bed bungalow, £400k. similar but without parking £350k.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 18,336

    On topic, both Labour and the Conservatives have decided that they won enough in June to making revisiting the leadership unnecessary for now. Both are wrong.

    I think the Conservatives fear what would be unleashed if there were a leadership contest.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 17,006
    Sean_F said:

    On topic, both Labour and the Conservatives have decided that they won enough in June to making revisiting the leadership unnecessary for now. Both are wrong.

    I think the Conservatives fear what would be unleashed if there were a leadership contest.
    It's going to be unleashed anyway, sooner or later. May as well get on with it.

    It might have the side benefit of forcing the Conservatives to alight on a single position on the Brexit negotiations. For a government, more than one position is no better than none.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 3,242

    I absolutely agree that more should try their hand at header writing. It's a bracing experience.

    On your other points: I don't think there's any problem in commenting on your own thread if you are asked direct questions by commenters or once everyone else has had a fair chance to say their piece.

    Headers can provoke but they must also inform. Great provocation requires great information. (Equally, posters who are greatly provoked should always consider whether the problem is theirs rather than the header writer's, and what information has been given along with the provocation.)

    One of the pleasures of writing headers is sneaking in cultural references and seeing whether they are spotted.

    I think where TSE is concerned, the more blatant the reference and the more it references Ms Minogue the better all round.

    I was concerned my piece was by definition London-centric and some of the regulars make a point of saying they don't live in "that London". Fine - the truth is the London local and Mayoral contests (though in the case of Newham contest is probably overstating it) will be reported as being of national relevance and the Conservatives still hold 21 seats in the capital - no one is saying that London will follow Liverpool and Manchester and eliminate all Conservative MPs but it may become more like Birmingham with the Conservatives reduced to the leafiest fringes)

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 7,060

    On topic, both Labour and the Conservatives have decided that they won enough in June to making revisiting the leadership unnecessary for now. Both are wrong.

    I have been wondering if Labour's result could be compared to Dunkirk:

    1) They lost and lost badly, and ended up with nothing;

    2) They have, however, done much less badly than expected due to some fancy footwork at the last minute, so they can pass it off as a triumph;

    3) They have no clue what to do next and are vaguely hoping that events will go their way;

    4) They will survive, to fight back at some unspecified future date, but as the alternative was with hindsight never likely unless they did something ultra-cretinous like surrender/disband that doesn't leave them much further forward;

    5) All informed opinion is thinking radical changes are needed but the ones who messed up so spectacularly are digging their heels in and ignoring reality.

    The question is, will Brexit then turn into Barbarossa (with us as the Wehrmacht)?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 7,060

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RIght lets hope interest rates stay at 0.25% today for the FTBs for my house x - They'll be applying about now.

    Grandson One and his fiancée have just, after solicitors messing about since April, moved into their first house. Mortgage seems horrendous, although they seem relaxed about it.
    Both teachers, so presumably jobs are reasonably secure.

    Best of luck with your purchasers, Mr P.
    My house is roughly the same size as @Casino_Royale's but worth around a third of the value !
    Mind you my onward purchase is such a bargain I daren't post it up here :)
    Are you/going to be outside the SE of England?
    Yep. East Mids.
    Sounds like a good idea. Prices round here (N Essex) are going crazy. Two-bed bungalow, £400k. similar but without parking £350k.
    The SE/rest divide is growing bigger more or less by the day.

    One of the most surreal moments on here was when a poster told me that the dementia tax would be unpopular with Northern voters because they wouldn't want to lose all the equity in their £450,000 ex-council three bed semi.

    What was really surreal was that he meant it.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 13,746
    stodge said:

    I absolutely agree that more should try their hand at header writing. It's a bracing experience.

    On your other points: I don't think there's any problem in commenting on your own thread if you are asked direct questions by commenters or once everyone else has had a fair chance to say their piece.

    Headers can provoke but they must also inform. Great provocation requires great information. (Equally, posters who are greatly provoked should always consider whether the problem is theirs rather than the header writer's, and what information has been given along with the provocation.)

    One of the pleasures of writing headers is sneaking in cultural references and seeing whether they are spotted.

    I think where TSE is concerned, the more blatant the reference and the more it references Ms Minogue the better all round.

    Why all the references to Miss Minogue, and not to other pop singers from the '80s and '90s?

    Better the devil you know, I guess.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 7,060


    It's going to be unleashed anyway, sooner or later. May as well get on with it.

    Boom, boom!
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 18,336
    stodge said:

    I absolutely agree that more should try their hand at header writing. It's a bracing experience.

    On your other points: I don't think there's any problem in commenting on your own thread if you are asked direct questions by commenters or once everyone else has had a fair chance to say their piece.

    Headers can provoke but they must also inform. Great provocation requires great information. (Equally, posters who are greatly provoked should always consider whether the problem is theirs rather than the header writer's, and what information has been given along with the provocation.)

    One of the pleasures of writing headers is sneaking in cultural references and seeing whether they are spotted.

    I think where TSE is concerned, the more blatant the reference and the more it references Ms Minogue the better all round.

    I was concerned my piece was by definition London-centric and some of the regulars make a point of saying they don't live in "that London". Fine - the truth is the London local and Mayoral contests (though in the case of Newham contest is probably overstating it) will be reported as being of national relevance and the Conservatives still hold 21 seats in the capital - no one is saying that London will follow Liverpool and Manchester and eliminate all Conservative MPs but it may become more like Birmingham with the Conservatives reduced to the leafiest fringes)

    21seats is a pretty good result, for finishing up 22% behind Labour. In 1997, the Conservatives were 18% behind Labour, and reduced to 11 seats.

    But, Greater London Conservatives seem destined to become like New York Republicans, capable of winning here and there, but operating in an overwhelmingly left wing environment.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 1,582
    ydoethur said:

    On topic, both Labour and the Conservatives have decided that they won enough in June to making revisiting the leadership unnecessary for now. Both are wrong.

    I have been wondering if Labour's result could be compared to Dunkirk:

    Answer: no!

    Dunkirk was an existential crisis for the country and (probably) Europe too - very hard to exaggerate it's significance or the sacrifices of so many. 2017 GE, was just a minor feck-up where LAbour did a better and the Tories worse than most expected.

    (Apols, I appreciate I am taking your post too seriously but seeing the film last week made a deep impresion on my perception of Dunkirk. Any attempt to parallel it into Con/Lab or Brexit terms is at risk of diminishing Dunkirk.)
This discussion has been closed.