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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » In the end the GOP, not the Democrats, will determine Trump’s

SystemSystem Posts: 3,967
edited August 13 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » In the end the GOP, not the Democrats, will determine Trump’s future

The American left seems unable to come to terms with Trump and doesn’t know how to deal with him. It’s his own side he should be worried about says Keiran Pedley

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Comments

  • Quiet here this evening
  • RobDRobD Posts: 28,825

    Quiet here this evening

    About right for a weekend evening just after a big election :p
  • nunuonenunuone Posts: 224
    Whilst the 2018 midterms are the big kahuna. Virginia (!) and New Jersey have elections this November.

    Dems must gain N.J governorship as Christie is more unpopular than Trump.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 6,454
    edited August 13
    Interesting thread. One or two comments:

    I am not sure I would prefer Pence to Trump. Kasich, yes, but he lost to Trump last time and it would be unusual for a defeated primary candidate to unseat the incumbent president - and as we saw with Romney, Clinton and Dole, it's still rarer for them to win (Reagan was a notable recent sort-of exception). Also he will be 67 and while age was not a factor for Trump, Clinton and Sanders he will find it hard to convincingly suggest he offers a break with the past.

    A fresh face might do it though, and arguably the one to watch as she dances in the media spotlight is Nikki Haley. I have often tipped her as a future president and if she is seen to handle North Korea more deftly than Trump she will surely enter the frame.

    The Democrats are still having a nervous breakdown. Last time was meant to be their moment. They would win the Presidency, the House and the Senate, the first time they would have had more than two terms since the Roosevelt/Truman hegemony of 1933-53. Instead they lost the lot to a reality TV star who comes across as a less stable version of Jeremy Clarkson. That was pretty humiliating. We went literally overnight from talking about the death of the Republicans to the death of the Democrats - almost as happened here with Corbyn. They are still shocked and do not know how to respond - 'if we lose like that then, how can we win, ever?' They're wrong - no party which wins the popular vote five elections in six is dead - but people who thought Hilary Clinton was a good candidate after eight years of Obama are clearly not possessed of intelligence or good judgement. They also have the problem that the nature of American democracy leaves them leaderless at present so there is nobody to tel them hard truths and turn things around.

    I think 'e.g. Neo-Nazis' should be 'i.e. Neo-Nazis.'
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 8,584
    Third.
    And Mr P is right. Trump won’t be impeached, not this side of the next elections anyway. Who was it said ‘don’t get mad, get even’? And getting even means NOT reacting hysterically to everything; it means planning and preparing.
    The Dems don’t seem to have learned the lesson that Bernie Sanders, and IMHO, Trump taught them. There’s an appetite for change, and it isn’t being satisfied.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 8,202
    The angst about the Democrats is weird. They had a shitty candidate as a legacy from a previous generation and lost what should have been an easy race, but their polling against the Republicans is great, and they have a number of good choices for the next presidential run.

    What is true is that they probably won't get the Senate back, so Trump won't get impeached unless at least some Republicans vote to do it. This probably won't happen, but whether the Dems end up needing to flip one or half a dozen makes a material difference.

    PS I guess it's easy to be nonchalant about two crazy people goading each other about nuclear weapons when you've got a continent between you and the warring parties but nobody outside Kim Kong Un's inner circle knows how much of a risk Trump is creating.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 23,026
    The US gives the impression of being a failed state right now. It is so utterly divided that it's hard to see how the pieces can be put back together again.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 8,202
    Too late to edit the typo: It should be Kim Jong Un. Kim Kong Un is a whole different issue - hopefully the Americans won't have to deal with that kind of thing again until they have some more competent leadership.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 2,406
    An interesting article on the BBC website about the 70th anniversary of Indian independence:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-40887900
    When the visionary entrepreneur Jamshedji Tata was planning the iron and steel works he believed could be the backbone of Indian industrialisation way back in the late 19th Century, he touted the idea around the finance houses of London. None wanted to invest.
    "As a desperate venture," the Times reported in 1921. "The iron and steel project was offered to the Indian public and to everyone's amazement the sum needed was subscribed in a few days."
    Tata's evolution has come full circle over the past century.
    As the owner of Jaguar Land Rover and Corus Steel, it is now the largest industrial employer in the UK...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 2,406

    The US gives the impression of being a failed state right now. It is so utterly divided that it's hard to see how the pieces can be put back together again.

    I think that perhaps overstates the case - one might make a similar comment about the UK, but I think that too would be hyperbole.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 6,781
    Thank you Keiran. I don't follow US politics particularly closely but that sounds about right.
  • felixfelix Posts: 6,575

    The US gives the impression of being a failed state right now. It is so utterly divided that it's hard to see how the pieces can be put back together again.

    Divided nations seem to be a feature of modern politics right now - USA/UK are the obvious ones but there are others in Europe below the surface [ eg., Macron's ratings now lower than Hollande]. Of course the USA one is more dangerous.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 6,454

    The US gives the impression of being a failed state right now. It is so utterly divided that it's hard to see how the pieces can be put back together again.

    People made the same comments in the Nixon/Carter period.

    It turned out not to be true.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 37,194
    Good morning, everyone.

    I largely agree with this. Also worth noting Trump inherited a hospital pass on the North Korea situation.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 2,406

    The angst about the Democrats is weird. They had a shitty candidate as a legacy from a previous generation and lost what should have been an easy race, but their polling against the Republicans is great, and they have a number of good choices for the next presidential run...

    It's not so strange.
    There is a genuine and continuing division in the party between the more conservative and more radical wings, which was exemplified by the Clinton/Saunders nomination battle. Clinton didn't reunite the party behind her candidacy, and there isn't yet an obvious candidate who will provide that leadership this time around.

    Kieran's case is perhaps a bit pessimistic, but it's notable that the Republicans national fundraising is currently way ahead of the Democrats.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 6,781

    The US gives the impression of being a failed state right now. It is so utterly divided that it's hard to see how the pieces can be put back together again.

    Venezuela looks like a failed state. As disturbing as the events in Virginia are, they are not representative of what's going on in the US at large.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 8,202
    Nigelb said:

    The angst about the Democrats is weird. They had a shitty candidate as a legacy from a previous generation and lost what should have been an easy race, but their polling against the Republicans is great, and they have a number of good choices for the next presidential run...

    It's not so strange.
    There is a genuine and continuing division in the party between the more conservative and more radical wings, which was exemplified by the Clinton/Saunders nomination battle. Clinton didn't reunite the party behind her candidacy, and there isn't yet an obvious candidate who will provide that leadership this time around.

    Kieran's case is perhaps a bit pessimistic, but it's notable that the Republicans national fundraising is currently way ahead of the Democrats.
    Clinton didn't get the Sanders people behind her because
    1) Her party had held the presidency for 8 years
    2) She's not very good at politics.

    A normal, competent politician won't have a problem getting the party behind them after 3 to 4 years of Trump.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 6,631
    tlg86 said:

    The US gives the impression of being a failed state right now. It is so utterly divided that it's hard to see how the pieces can be put back together again.

    Venezuela looks like a failed state. As disturbing as the events in Virginia are, they are not representative of what's going on in the US at large.
    Actual Nazis on the march isn't quite enough for you.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 2,406

    Good morning, everyone.

    I largely agree with this. Also worth noting Trump inherited a hospital pass on the North Korea situation.

    That rather suggests, Mr.D, that North Korea hasn't been a military/political headache for decades.

    Syria could justifiably be called a hospital pass, NK not so much.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 2,406

    Nigelb said:

    The angst about the Democrats is weird. They had a shitty candidate as a legacy from a previous generation and lost what should have been an easy race, but their polling against the Republicans is great, and they have a number of good choices for the next presidential run...

    It's not so strange.
    There is a genuine and continuing division in the party between the more conservative and more radical wings, which was exemplified by the Clinton/Saunders nomination battle. Clinton didn't reunite the party behind her candidacy, and there isn't yet an obvious candidate who will provide that leadership this time around.

    Kieran's case is perhaps a bit pessimistic, but it's notable that the Republicans national fundraising is currently way ahead of the Democrats.
    Clinton didn't get the Sanders people behind her because
    1) Her party had held the presidency for 8 years
    2) She's not very good at politics.

    A normal, competent politician won't have a problem getting the party behind them after 3 to 4 years of Trump.
    If the Democrats are to break through in the mid terms, that should be happening now. It isn't.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 23,026
    tlg86 said:

    The US gives the impression of being a failed state right now. It is so utterly divided that it's hard to see how the pieces can be put back together again.

    Venezuela looks like a failed state. As disturbing as the events in Virginia are, they are not representative of what's going on in the US at large.

    Yep, Venezuela is an actual failed state. It's interesting to compare Corbyn's weasel words on Maduro with Trump's equally weasel words on what happened in Charlottsville. Both statements reveal so much.

    The US is not a failed state, of course; but it is drifting towards a situation in which there will be no common demos. Over 50% of Republicans now believe that Trump should have the right to postpone the 2020 election. Think about that.

  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 8,202
    Jonathan said:

    tlg86 said:

    The US gives the impression of being a failed state right now. It is so utterly divided that it's hard to see how the pieces can be put back together again.

    Venezuela looks like a failed state. As disturbing as the events in Virginia are, they are not representative of what's going on in the US at large.
    Actual Nazis on the march isn't quite enough for you.
    Most countries have some actual nazis and free countries allow them to march, so no, this isn't Venezuela-level state failure. Trump's corruption is banana-republic-level, but that's a different issue and so far it hasn't made much difference to normal people's lives.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 8,202
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    The angst about the Democrats is weird. They had a shitty candidate as a legacy from a previous generation and lost what should have been an easy race, but their polling against the Republicans is great, and they have a number of good choices for the next presidential run...

    It's not so strange.
    There is a genuine and continuing division in the party between the more conservative and more radical wings, which was exemplified by the Clinton/Saunders nomination battle. Clinton didn't reunite the party behind her candidacy, and there isn't yet an obvious candidate who will provide that leadership this time around.

    Kieran's case is perhaps a bit pessimistic, but it's notable that the Republicans national fundraising is currently way ahead of the Democrats.
    Clinton didn't get the Sanders people behind her because
    1) Her party had held the presidency for 8 years
    2) She's not very good at politics.

    A normal, competent politician won't have a problem getting the party behind them after 3 to 4 years of Trump.
    If the Democrats are to break through in the mid terms, that should be happening now. It isn't.

    Disagree, it doesn't matter for the mid-terms. Ideologically the GOP were all over the place in 2010. They don't have to be coherent, they just have to be riled up.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 16,655
    Don't forget that New Hampshire was one of the States that Kaisch did best in back in 2016. All the poll tells us is that Trump is disliked, not that Kaisch will appeal to anyone else.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Hampshire_Republican_primary,_2016
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 17,300
    Scott_P said:
    As usual, PB's crime correspondents, so often first to get the rumours, are mostly silent.

    Odd that.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 16,655

    The US gives the impression of being a failed state right now. It is so utterly divided that it's hard to see how the pieces can be put back together again.

    It's a consequence of globalisation. The ruling elites became obsessed with their own entrails and their peers in other countries and forgot their primary duty to the people they serve.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 37,194
    Mr. B, I don't dispute that, but the best time for military intervention, if it comes to that, is early on. Saw a snippet of Sky News with a former adviser to Obama who claimed they'd successfully contained the threat. Assuming that's a genuine belief and not spin, it shows a dangerous level of delusion.

    Right now, Trump's options are for a massive regional war, or peace at the cost of letting a lunatic leader of a despotic regime get nuclear weapons *and* letting every tyrant in the world know that even the US won't lift a finger if you get nukes, drastically increasing the future prospects of a nuclear war.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 23,026
    Charles said:

    The US gives the impression of being a failed state right now. It is so utterly divided that it's hard to see how the pieces can be put back together again.

    It's a consequence of globalisation. The ruling elites became obsessed with their own entrails and their peers in other countries and forgot their primary duty to the people they serve.

    Did you? :-)

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 6,631

    Jonathan said:

    tlg86 said:

    The US gives the impression of being a failed state right now. It is so utterly divided that it's hard to see how the pieces can be put back together again.

    Venezuela looks like a failed state. As disturbing as the events in Virginia are, they are not representative of what's going on in the US at large.
    Actual Nazis on the march isn't quite enough for you.
    Most countries have some actual nazis and free countries allow them to march, so no, this isn't Venezuela-level state failure. Trump's corruption is banana-republic-level, but that's a different issue and so far it hasn't made much difference to normal people's lives.
    Not sure most countries have actual Nazis, certainly not quite like this.

    When you chuck in what's happening in places like Baltimore and Chicago and issues like health the US whilst far from a failed state seems to fail as a state to deal with very serious problems.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 30,811
    Jacob Rees-Mogg is “sounding out” friends about whether he should enter the race to succeed Theresa May. The Old Etonian, who previously said he did not see himself as a “serious” candidate, is giving “careful consideration” to his political career, friends say.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/tory-rees-mogg-toys-with-leadership-pdgt9qfvr
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 17,300
    edited August 13
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    tlg86 said:

    The US gives the impression of being a failed state right now. It is so utterly divided that it's hard to see how the pieces can be put back together again.

    Venezuela looks like a failed state. As disturbing as the events in Virginia are, they are not representative of what's going on in the US at large.
    Actual Nazis on the march isn't quite enough for you.
    Most countries have some actual nazis and free countries allow them to march, so no, this isn't Venezuela-level state failure. Trump's corruption is banana-republic-level, but that's a different issue and so far it hasn't made much difference to normal people's lives.
    Not sure most countries have actual Nazis, certainly not quite like this.

    When you chuck in what's happening in places like Baltimore and Chicago and issues like health the US whilst far from a failed state seems to fail as a state to deal with very serious problems.
    I'm unsure this is very different from the US in the sixties or seventies. Yet despite these problems, the US continues to be a world leader in so many areas.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 16,655
    Jonathan said:

    tlg86 said:

    The US gives the impression of being a failed state right now. It is so utterly divided that it's hard to see how the pieces can be put back together again.

    Venezuela looks like a failed state. As disturbing as the events in Virginia are, they are not representative of what's going on in the US at large.
    Actual Nazis on the march isn't quite enough for you.
    I think the organisers were claiming 6,000. That's usually a huge over-estimate.

    Even taking it at face value, 6,000 = 0.0018% of the population
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 6,631
    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    tlg86 said:

    The US gives the impression of being a failed state right now. It is so utterly divided that it's hard to see how the pieces can be put back together again.

    Venezuela looks like a failed state. As disturbing as the events in Virginia are, they are not representative of what's going on in the US at large.
    Actual Nazis on the march isn't quite enough for you.
    I think the organisers were claiming 6,000. That's usually a huge over-estimate.

    Even taking it at face value, 6,000 = 0.0018% of the population
    Not sure there is an acceptable number of Nazis.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 6,781

    tlg86 said:

    The US gives the impression of being a failed state right now. It is so utterly divided that it's hard to see how the pieces can be put back together again.

    Venezuela looks like a failed state. As disturbing as the events in Virginia are, they are not representative of what's going on in the US at large.

    Yep, Venezuela is an actual failed state. It's interesting to compare Corbyn's weasel words on Maduro with Trump's equally weasel words on what happened in Charlottsville. Both statements reveal so much.

    The US is not a failed state, of course; but it is drifting towards a situation in which there will be no common demos. Over 50% of Republicans now believe that Trump should have the right to postpone the 2020 election. Think about that.

    Yes, there are many similarities between Trump and Corbyn.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 17,300
    And in the meantime, football yet again shows how it is a truly wonderful game:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-40915617
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 6,781
    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    tlg86 said:

    The US gives the impression of being a failed state right now. It is so utterly divided that it's hard to see how the pieces can be put back together again.

    Venezuela looks like a failed state. As disturbing as the events in Virginia are, they are not representative of what's going on in the US at large.
    Actual Nazis on the march isn't quite enough for you.
    I think the organisers were claiming 6,000. That's usually a huge over-estimate.

    Even taking it at face value, 6,000 = 0.0018% of the population
    Not sure there is an acceptable number of Nazis.
    Germany has plenty of Nazis too. Do you think that's a failed state?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 16,655
    edited August 13

    Scott_P said:
    As usual, PB's crime correspondents, so often first to get the rumours, are mostly silent.

    Odd that.
    There's a danger that "terrorism" as a phrase gets so over-used that it loses its power.

    I think you can draw a distinction between someone who tries to change policy (e.g. presumably the motive of this case in Charlotteville) vs. someone who is trying to overthrow the state or society itself.

    In my mind the former is an (alleged) murderer, the second is a terrorist.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 16,655

    Charles said:

    The US gives the impression of being a failed state right now. It is so utterly divided that it's hard to see how the pieces can be put back together again.

    It's a consequence of globalisation. The ruling elites became obsessed with their own entrails and their peers in other countries and forgot their primary duty to the people they serve.

    Did you? :-)

    No. But then my family hasn't been in government since the 90s. We've had our turn, and won't get another go for a couple of hundred years ;)
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 16,655
    Scott_P said:

    Jacob Rees-Mogg is “sounding out” friends about whether he should enter the race to succeed Theresa May. The Old Etonian, who previously said he did not see himself as a “serious” candidate, is giving “careful consideration” to his political career, friends say.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/tory-rees-mogg-toys-with-leadership-pdgt9qfvr

    That doesn't sound like friends to me. It sounds like people who want to undermine him
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 16,655
    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    tlg86 said:

    The US gives the impression of being a failed state right now. It is so utterly divided that it's hard to see how the pieces can be put back together again.

    Venezuela looks like a failed state. As disturbing as the events in Virginia are, they are not representative of what's going on in the US at large.
    Actual Nazis on the march isn't quite enough for you.
    I think the organisers were claiming 6,000. That's usually a huge over-estimate.

    Even taking it at face value, 6,000 = 0.0018% of the population
    Not sure there is an acceptable number of Nazis.
    Depends on whether you believe in free speech or not.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 23,026
    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    tlg86 said:

    The US gives the impression of being a failed state right now. It is so utterly divided that it's hard to see how the pieces can be put back together again.

    Venezuela looks like a failed state. As disturbing as the events in Virginia are, they are not representative of what's going on in the US at large.
    Actual Nazis on the march isn't quite enough for you.
    I think the organisers were claiming 6,000. That's usually a huge over-estimate.

    Even taking it at face value, 6,000 = 0.0018% of the population

    There is a white supremacist sitting at the right hand of the President of the United States. Trump's inability to condemn events in Charlottsville shows just how much he is influenced by Steve Bannon. When you have that much power, your actual numbers are irrelevant.

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 6,631
    edited August 13
    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    tlg86 said:

    The US gives the impression of being a failed state right now. It is so utterly divided that it's hard to see how the pieces can be put back together again.

    Venezuela looks like a failed state. As disturbing as the events in Virginia are, they are not representative of what's going on in the US at large.
    Actual Nazis on the march isn't quite enough for you.
    I think the organisers were claiming 6,000. That's usually a huge over-estimate.

    Even taking it at face value, 6,000 = 0.0018% of the population
    Not sure there is an acceptable number of Nazis.
    Depends on whether you believe in free speech or not.
    Nope. That's sophistry. Nazis have a track record of doing more than talking. Not something you can just ignore.

    There ues nothing to talk about in any case. Everything that needed to be said on Nazism has already been said. Nazism is the Political equivalent of smallpox. Don't let them march. Don't accept them as one side of an argument.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 16,655
    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    tlg86 said:

    The US gives the impression of being a failed state right now. It is so utterly divided that it's hard to see how the pieces can be put back together again.

    Venezuela looks like a failed state. As disturbing as the events in Virginia are, they are not representative of what's going on in the US at large.
    Actual Nazis on the march isn't quite enough for you.
    I think the organisers were claiming 6,000. That's usually a huge over-estimate.

    Even taking it at face value, 6,000 = 0.0018% of the population
    Not sure there is an acceptable number of Nazis.
    Depends on whether you believe in free speech or not.
    Nope. That's sophistry. Nazis have a track record of doing more than talking. Not something you can just ignore.

    There ues nothing to talk about in any case. Everything that needed to be said on Nazism has already been said. Nazism is the Political equivalent of smallpox. Don't let them march. Don't accept them as one side of an argument.
    I'm not in favour of banning political expression - this is a matter of principle.

    But if they cross the boundary into inciting (or committing) criminal offenses then crack down on them.

    I'm not sure that the counter-protesters are helpful though - if they didn't turn up then pretty much everyone would ignore the few idiots who march.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 19,402
    felix said:

    The US gives the impression of being a failed state right now. It is so utterly divided that it's hard to see how the pieces can be put back together again.

    Divided nations seem to be a feature of modern politics right now - USA/UK are the obvious ones but there are others in Europe below the surface [ eg., Macron's ratings now lower than Hollande]. Of course the USA one is more dangerous.
    Macron is still rated about 20 points higher than where Hollande was at the end of his presidency. However, he has gone from +30 favourable to -5 in about two months, which must be a near record decline. (Hollande was worse than -5 for all but about six months of his presidency)
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 6,631
    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    The US gives the impression of being a failed state right now. It is so utterly divided that it's hard to see how the pieces can be put back together again.

    Divided nations seem to be a feature of modern politics right now - USA/UK are the obvious ones but there are others in Europe below the surface [ eg., Macron's ratings now lower than Hollande]. Of course the USA one is more dangerous.
    Macron is still rated about 20 points higher than where Hollande was at the end of his presidency. However, he has gone from +30 favourable to -5 in about two months, which must be a near record decline. (Hollande was worse than -5 for all but about six months of his presidency)
    May?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 19,402
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    The angst about the Democrats is weird. They had a shitty candidate as a legacy from a previous generation and lost what should have been an easy race, but their polling against the Republicans is great, and they have a number of good choices for the next presidential run...

    It's not so strange.
    There is a genuine and continuing division in the party between the more conservative and more radical wings, which was exemplified by the Clinton/Saunders nomination battle. Clinton didn't reunite the party behind her candidacy, and there isn't yet an obvious candidate who will provide that leadership this time around.

    Kieran's case is perhaps a bit pessimistic, but it's notable that the Republicans national fundraising is currently way ahead of the Democrats.
    Clinton didn't get the Sanders people behind her because
    1) Her party had held the presidency for 8 years
    2) She's not very good at politics.

    A normal, competent politician won't have a problem getting the party behind them after 3 to 4 years of Trump.
    If the Democrats are to break through in the mid terms, that should be happening now. It isn't.

    The polls suggest the Democrats will do pretty well in the midterms. Whether they will manage to overturn the Republican majority is open for debate (I'd make it a 40% chance), but they are certainly going to make meaningful gains.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 8,202
    edited August 13
    Charles said:


    There's a danger that "terrorism" as a phrase gets so over-used that it loses its power.

    I think you can draw a distinction between someone who tries to change policy (e.g. presumably the motive of this case in Charlotteville) vs. someone who is trying to overthrow the state or society itself.

    In my mind the former is an (alleged) murderer, the second is a terrorist.

    wtf
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 12,843
    edited August 13
    Jonathan said:

    tlg86 said:

    The US gives the impression of being a failed state right now. It is so utterly divided that it's hard to see how the pieces can be put back together again.

    Venezuela looks like a failed state. As disturbing as the events in Virginia are, they are not representative of what's going on in the US at large.
    Actual Nazis on the march isn't quite enough for you.
    There were people at that stupid march who voted twice for Obama. Until the left understands the underlying reason for anger in much of white America they can give up on winning the White House. What's more is that 8 years of Trump will reverse the demographic advantage that the Dems were building up.

    Whatever one thinks of Obama, he was on the side of blue collar white America (or at least appeared to be). Bernie also is. The rest of the Dems? Not even close. They seem more concerned with Transgender rights (something which affects maybe 20,000 Americans) than with ensuring that there are enough jobs being created in blue collar America. Whether that is true or not, it is the impression they give. The Dems have pandered to Generation Tumblr and now have no natural base given that blue collar whites are apparently all Nazis.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 978
    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    tlg86 said:

    The US gives the impression of being a failed state right now. It is so utterly divided that it's hard to see how the pieces can be put back together again.

    Venezuela looks like a failed state. As disturbing as the events in Virginia are, they are not representative of what's going on in the US at large.
    Actual Nazis on the march isn't quite enough for you.
    There were people at that stupid march who voted twice for Obama. Until the left understands the underlying reason for anger in much of white America they can give up on winning the White House. What's more is that 8 years of Trump will reverse the demographic advantage that the Dems were building up.

    Whatever one thinks of Obama, he was on the side of blue collar white America (or at least appeared to be). Bernie also is. The rest of the Dems? Not even close. They seem more concerned with Transgender rights (something which affects maybe 20,000 Americans) than with ensuring that there are enough jobs being created blue collar America. Whether that is true or not, it is the impress they give. The Dems have pandered to Generation Tumblr and now have no natural base given that blue collar whites are apparently all Nazis.
    "What's more is that 8 years of Trump will reverse the demographic advantage that the Dems were building up."

    How do you work that out??
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 12,843

    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    tlg86 said:

    The US gives the impression of being a failed state right now. It is so utterly divided that it's hard to see how the pieces can be put back together again.

    Venezuela looks like a failed state. As disturbing as the events in Virginia are, they are not representative of what's going on in the US at large.
    Actual Nazis on the march isn't quite enough for you.
    There were people at that stupid march who voted twice for Obama. Until the left understands the underlying reason for anger in much of white America they can give up on winning the White House. What's more is that 8 years of Trump will reverse the demographic advantage that the Dems were building up.

    Whatever one thinks of Obama, he was on the side of blue collar white America (or at least appeared to be). Bernie also is. The rest of the Dems? Not even close. They seem more concerned with Transgender rights (something which affects maybe 20,000 Americans) than with ensuring that there are enough jobs being created blue collar America. Whether that is true or not, it is the impress they give. The Dems have pandered to Generation Tumblr and now have no natural base given that blue collar whites are apparently all Nazis.
    "What's more is that 8 years of Trump will reverse the demographic advantage that the Dems were building up."

    How do you work that out??
    Reversal of amnesty policies for illegals, probable reversal of anchor status for illegal immigrants meaning fewer green cards handed out. Generally the US today is significantly more hostile towards illegals than it was a year ago, over 8 years the lack of amnesties and green cards being given to illegals will help the GOP. I also think the next election will be the first to ask for valid ID, the GOP will try and get that through by any means necessary, even if Trump does it by EO. That will hurt the Dems a lot.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 17,712
    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    tlg86 said:

    The US gives the impression of being a failed state right now. It is so utterly divided that it's hard to see how the pieces can be put back together again.

    Venezuela looks like a failed state. As disturbing as the events in Virginia are, they are not representative of what's going on in the US at large.
    Actual Nazis on the march isn't quite enough for you.
    I think the organisers were claiming 6,000. That's usually a huge over-estimate.

    Even taking it at face value, 6,000 = 0.0018% of the population
    Not sure there is an acceptable number of Nazis.
    Depends on whether you believe in free speech or not.
    Nope. That's sophistry. Nazis have a track record of doing more than talking. Not something you can just ignore.

    There ues nothing to talk about in any case. Everything that needed to be said on Nazism has already been said. Nazism is the Political equivalent of smallpox. Don't let them march. Don't accept them as one side of an argument.
    Then you are worse than them and have to ban all marches. free speech does not mean your interpretation of "free".
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 15,320
    a whole thread of english middle class angst

    Trump is the baddy because he's crass and offensive

    So far apart from shooting his mouth off he has actually done very little

    Angela Merkels car industry has killed more people so far this year than Trump but that's ok because she isnt rude about it.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 16,655
    edited August 13

    Charles said:


    There's a danger that "terrorism" as a phrase gets so over-used that it loses its power.

    I think you can draw a distinction between someone who tries to change policy (e.g. presumably the motive of this case in Charlotteville) vs. someone who is trying to overthrow the state or society itself.

    In my mind the former is an (alleged) murderer, the second is a terrorist.

    wtf
    Perhaps a counterargument would be interesting...

    Terrorism is more than just committing murder in a spectacular and public way. For example I don't think people talk about Hungerford or Dunblane as acts of terrorism.

    It's also worth noting that the UK government for decades referred to the PIRA as "murderers" rather than "terrorists" because they didn't want to legitimise their campaign. I think referring to the Charlotteville (alleged) murderer as a "terrorist" gives him a status he doesn't deserve.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 978

    a whole thread of english middle class angst

    Trump is the baddy because he's crass and offensive

    So far apart from shooting his mouth off he has actually done very little

    Angela Merkels car industry has killed more people so far this year than Trump but that's ok because she isnt rude about it.

    What a silly post! Angela Merkels owns the whole car industry does she?!
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 12,843
    malcolmg said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    tlg86 said:

    The US gives the impression of being a failed state right now. It is so utterly divided that it's hard to see how the pieces can be put back together again.

    Venezuela looks like a failed state. As disturbing as the events in Virginia are, they are not representative of what's going on in the US at large.
    Actual Nazis on the march isn't quite enough for you.
    I think the organisers were claiming 6,000. That's usually a huge over-estimate.

    Even taking it at face value, 6,000 = 0.0018% of the population
    Not sure there is an acceptable number of Nazis.
    Depends on whether you believe in free speech or not.
    Nope. That's sophistry. Nazis have a track record of doing more than talking. Not something you can just ignore.

    There ues nothing to talk about in any case. Everything that needed to be said on Nazism has already been said. Nazism is the Political equivalent of smallpox. Don't let them march. Don't accept them as one side of an argument.
    Then you are worse than them and have to ban all marches. free speech does not mean your interpretation of "free".
    "Free speech is only free if I agree with it" - the modern left. And they wonder why Trump is beating them.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 15,320

    a whole thread of english middle class angst

    Trump is the baddy because he's crass and offensive

    So far apart from shooting his mouth off he has actually done very little

    Angela Merkels car industry has killed more people so far this year than Trump but that's ok because she isnt rude about it.

    What a silly post! Angela Merkels owns the whole car industry does she?!
    her government has colluded with the german car industry in suppressing results which are outside legal norms

    like the Dutch and their eggs

    try following whats actually happening instead of being duped by a reality TV star
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 2,704
    What seems entirely twattish is proposing to remove an inoffensive and rather good 100 year old equestrian statue, purely in the interests of being twattish and starting a fight. I hope those who instituted the idea are happy now, with the deaths of 2 policemen and one bystander yesterday. It's not like you are going to change the minds of people so stupid they have failed to notice that whites are already supreme in the US, by moving statues about.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 978
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    tlg86 said:

    The US gives the impression of being a failed state right now. It is so utterly divided that it's hard to see how the pieces can be put back together again.

    Venezuela looks like a failed state. As disturbing as the events in Virginia are, they are not representative of what's going on in the US at large.
    Actual Nazis on the march isn't quite enough for you.
    There were people at that stupid march who voted twice for Obama. Until the left understands the underlying reason for anger in much of white America they can give up on winning the White House. What's more is that 8 years of Trump will reverse the demographic advantage that the Dems were building up.

    Whatever one thinks of Obama, he was on the side of blue collar white America (or at least appeared to be). Bernie also is. The rest of the Dems? Not even close. They seem more concerned with Transgender rights (something which affects maybe 20,000 Americans) than with ensuring that there are enough jobs being created blue collar America. Whether that is true or not, it is the impress they give. The Dems have pandered to Generation Tumblr and now have no natural base given that blue collar whites are apparently all Nazis.
    "What's more is that 8 years of Trump will reverse the demographic advantage that the Dems were building up."

    How do you work that out??
    Reversal of amnesty policies for illegals, probable reversal of anchor status for illegal immigrants meaning fewer green cards handed out. Generally the US today is significantly more hostile towards illegals than it was a year ago, over 8 years the lack of amnesties and green cards being given to illegals will help the GOP. I also think the next election will be the first to ask for valid ID, the GOP will try and get that through by any means necessary, even if Trump does it by EO. That will hurt the Dems a lot.
    Mmmm - maybe some small effect there. The bigger problem for Trump is going to be that the blue collar vote he gained on his MAGA promise will realise by 2020 that he has delivered jack-shit on that score, and they'll swing back to their natural home.

    What the Democrats do need is a fresh face that they can coalesce around... plenty of time for someone to emerge yet. In the meantime, they should not push for impeachment too hard - Pence as POTUS would be a bigger challenge for them to overcome in 2020.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 6,454

    a whole thread of english middle class angst

    Trump is the baddy because he's crass and offensive

    So far apart from shooting his mouth off he has actually done very little

    Angela Merkels car industry has killed more people so far this year than Trump but that's ok because she isnt rude about it.

    He's got four months left and he's already threatened to nuke North Korea twice.

    The balance might literally reverse overnight.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 15,320
    edited August 13
    ydoethur said:

    a whole thread of english middle class angst

    Trump is the baddy because he's crass and offensive

    So far apart from shooting his mouth off he has actually done very little

    Angela Merkels car industry has killed more people so far this year than Trump but that's ok because she isnt rude about it.

    He's got four months left and he's already threatened to nuke North Korea twice.

    The balance might literally reverse overnight.
    yeah

    he said hed build a wall between the US and mexico, not a stone has been turned

    and it NK's case NK is in the driving seat Trumps simply reacting

    so far the only thing he has actually done is bomb the Syrians for using chemical weapons

    do you disagree with that ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 2,406
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    The angst about the Democrats is weird. They had a shitty candidate as a legacy from a previous generation and lost what should have been an easy race, but their polling against the Republicans is great, and they have a number of good choices for the next presidential run...

    It's not so strange.
    There is a genuine and continuing division in the party between the more conservative and more radical wings, which was exemplified by the Clinton/Saunders nomination battle. Clinton didn't reunite the party behind her candidacy, and there isn't yet an obvious candidate who will provide that leadership this time around.

    Kieran's case is perhaps a bit pessimistic, but it's notable that the Republicans national fundraising is currently way ahead of the Democrats.
    Clinton didn't get the Sanders people behind her because
    1) Her party had held the presidency for 8 years
    2) She's not very good at politics.

    A normal, competent politician won't have a problem getting the party behind them after 3 to 4 years of Trump.
    If the Democrats are to break through in the mid terms, that should be happening now. It isn't.

    The polls suggest the Democrats will do pretty well in the midterms. Whether they will manage to overturn the Republican majority is open for debate (I'd make it a 40% chance), but they are certainly going to make meaningful gains.
    They'll do OK; when I said break through I meant overturn the majority. But when the 2020 nomination could quite conceivably be a contest between Biden and Saunders, you can perhaps see the problem.
    Saunders is even touted as the front runner :
    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/7/5/15802616/bernie-sanders-2020
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 978

    a whole thread of english middle class angst

    Trump is the baddy because he's crass and offensive

    So far apart from shooting his mouth off he has actually done very little

    Angela Merkels car industry has killed more people so far this year than Trump but that's ok because she isnt rude about it.

    What a silly post! Angela Merkels owns the whole car industry does she?!
    her government has colluded with the german car industry in suppressing results which are outside legal norms

    like the Dutch and their eggs

    try following whats actually happening instead of being duped by a reality TV star
    Dutch eggs versus potential conflict with North Korea? I know which worries me most.

    Of course, it's hard to blame the EU for the North Korea crisis... Surely Merkel must be behind it somehow?!
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 8,202
    Charles said:

    Charles said:


    There's a danger that "terrorism" as a phrase gets so over-used that it loses its power.

    I think you can draw a distinction between someone who tries to change policy (e.g. presumably the motive of this case in Charlotteville) vs. someone who is trying to overthrow the state or society itself.

    In my mind the former is an (alleged) murderer, the second is a terrorist.

    wtf
    Perhaps a counterargument would be interesting...

    Terrorism is more than just committing murder in a spectacular and public way. For example I don't think people talk about Hungerford or Dunblane as acts of terrorism.

    It's also worth noting that the UK government for decades referred to the PIRA as "murderers" rather than "terrorists" because they didn't want to legitimise their campaign. I think referring to the Charlotteville (alleged) murderer as a "terrorist" gives him a status he doesn't deserve.
    Sorry, it's just a huge wtf. By your definition I don't think even 9/11 would be terrorism.

    The IRA were obviously terrorists by any normal definition. The difference with Hungerford or Dunblane is whether the goal is *political*.

    Now, for all I know you may be right that it's practically useful when trying to prevent terrorism not to call terrorists terrorists, or to call non-terrorists terrorists for that matter, but that doesn't change the actual meaning of the word.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 37,194
    Mr. Z, indeed. I imagine there is a statue or two of Julius Caesar in this country. He committed genocide, but there we are.

    If we erase the past that's unacceptable to modern sensibilities then we're not going to have many statues, or buildings, left.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 6,454

    ydoethur said:

    a whole thread of english middle class angst

    Trump is the baddy because he's crass and offensive

    So far apart from shooting his mouth off he has actually done very little

    Angela Merkels car industry has killed more people so far this year than Trump but that's ok because she isnt rude about it.

    He's got four months left and he's already threatened to nuke North Korea twice.

    The balance might literally reverse overnight.
    yeah

    he said hed build a wall between the US and mexico, not a stone has been turned

    and it NK's case NK is in the driving seat Trumps simply reacting

    so far the only thing he has actually done is bomb the Syrians for using chemical weapons

    do you disagree with that ?
    Didn't even know he'd bombed the Syrians.

    I had noticed that he had made two major efforts to ban immigration from certain countries that were struck down by the courts, and tried to repeal Obamacare only to be blocked by John McCain's cunning manoeuvres in the Senate.

    It's not altogether his fault he's achieved nothing.

    Incidentally did anyone else spot a parallel between Corbyn's education policies and Trump's wall? Both were policies that were badly thought through and essentially reduced to slogans. However, the key point is that the huge costs would all be borne by other people - turning them into naked if implausible bribes.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 6,454
    edited August 13

    Mr. Z, indeed. I imagine there is a statue or two of Julius Caesar in this country. He committed genocide, but there we are.

    If we erase the past that's unacceptable to modern sensibilities then we're not going to have many statues, or buildings, left.

    Are they going to rename Petersburg and Lee College? Or has that already happened?

    And what about Arlington?

    Edit - meant Washington and Lee. Too early in the morning.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 15,320
    edited August 13

    a whole thread of english middle class angst

    Trump is the baddy because he's crass and offensive

    So far apart from shooting his mouth off he has actually done very little

    Angela Merkels car industry has killed more people so far this year than Trump but that's ok because she isnt rude about it.

    What a silly post! Angela Merkels owns the whole car industry does she?!
    her government has colluded with the german car industry in suppressing results which are outside legal norms

    like the Dutch and their eggs

    try following whats actually happening instead of being duped by a reality TV star
    Dutch eggs versus potential conflict with North Korea? I know which worries me most.

    Of course, it's hard to blame the EU for the North Korea crisis... Surely Merkel must be behind it somehow?!
    clearly not the 100,000 premature deaths in Europe annually because of diesel fumes

    Europe wont be touched by a NK\USA showdown, but youre happy for 1million plus europeans to die each decade

    as I said you go for the pantomime baddy not the atcual killer
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 23,026
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    tlg86 said:

    The US gives the impression of being a failed state right now. It is so utterly divided that it's hard to see how the pieces can be put back together again.

    Venezuela looks like a failed state. As disturbing as the events in Virginia are, they are not representative of what's going on in the US at large.
    Actual Nazis on the march isn't quite enough for you.
    There were people at that stupid march who voted twice for Obama. Until the left understands the underlying reason for anger in much of white America they can give up on winning the White House. What's more is that 8 years of Trump will reverse the demographic advantage that the Dems were building up.

    Whatever one thinks of Obama, he was on the side of blue collar white America (or at least appeared to be). Bernie also is. The rest of the Dems? Not even close. They seem more concerned with Transgender rights (something which affects maybe 20,000 Americans) than with ensuring that there are enough jobs being created blue collar America. Whether that is true or not, it is the impress they give. The Dems have pandered to Generation Tumblr and now have no natural base given that blue collar whites are apparently all Nazis.
    "What's more is that 8 years of Trump will reverse the demographic advantage that the Dems were building up."

    How do you work that out??
    Reversal of amnesty policies for illegals, probable reversal of anchor status for illegal immigrants meaning fewer green cards handed out. Generally the US today is significantly more hostile towards illegals than it was a year ago, over 8 years the lack of amnesties and green cards being given to illegals will help the GOP. I also think the next election will be the first to ask for valid ID, the GOP will try and get that through by any means necessary, even if Trump does it by EO. That will hurt the Dems a lot.

    Yep - Republican voter suppression efforts are gaining in strength and will be immensely effective in some states if they get past the courts.

  • MJWMJW Posts: 122
    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    tlg86 said:

    The US gives the impression of being a failed state right now. It is so utterly divided that it's hard to see how the pieces can be put back together again.

    Venezuela looks like a failed state. As disturbing as the events in Virginia are, they are not representative of what's going on in the US at large.
    Actual Nazis on the march isn't quite enough for you.
    There were people at that stupid march who voted twice for Obama. Until the left understands the underlying reason for anger in much of white America they can give up on winning the White House. What's more is that 8 years of Trump will reverse the demographic advantage that the Dems were building up.

    Whatever one thinks of Obama, he was on the side of blue collar white America (or at least appeared to be). Bernie also is. The rest of the Dems? Not even close. They seem more concerned with Transgender rights (something which affects maybe 20,000 Americans) than with ensuring that there are enough jobs being created in blue collar America. Whether that is true or not, it is the impression they give. The Dems have pandered to Generation Tumblr and now have no natural base given that blue collar whites are apparently all Nazis.
    Nonsense. While it's true there are hundreds of thousands who voted Obama and then Trump, they weren't the kind of people who were on that march - who were actual, flag carrying, tattooed, pictures of Adolf Hitler on their Facebook walls, Nazis. Not people who are a bit queasy over transgender rights or who blame globalisation for not having a job. Nazis.

    While it's right that the Dems do need to come up with something along the lines of a new economic and social compact for middle-America, there's no excusing actual Nazis or Klan members with tales of blue collar dislocation. It's racism pure and simple.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 8,164
    ydoethur said:

    a whole thread of english middle class angst

    Trump is the baddy because he's crass and offensive

    So far apart from shooting his mouth off he has actually done very little

    Angela Merkels car industry has killed more people so far this year than Trump but that's ok because she isnt rude about it.

    He's got four months left and he's already threatened to nuke North Korea twice.

    The balance might literally reverse overnight.
    That could happen whoever was the US President.

    I doubt Hilary would have had any hesitation in sending North Korea back to the stone age if it had attacked US territory or in threatening to do so before hand.

    Though that would have been cheered by many as an example of a 'strong woman leader'.

    People will support or criticize the same action depending on whether it is done by 'our side' or 'their side'.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 978

    Charles said:

    Charles said:


    There's a danger that "terrorism" as a phrase gets so over-used that it loses its power.

    I think you can draw a distinction between someone who tries to change policy (e.g. presumably the motive of this case in Charlotteville) vs. someone who is trying to overthrow the state or society itself.

    In my mind the former is an (alleged) murderer, the second is a terrorist.

    wtf
    Perhaps a counterargument would be interesting...

    Terrorism is more than just committing murder in a spectacular and public way. For example I don't think people talk about Hungerford or Dunblane as acts of terrorism.

    It's also worth noting that the UK government for decades referred to the PIRA as "murderers" rather than "terrorists" because they didn't want to legitimise their campaign. I think referring to the Charlotteville (alleged) murderer as a "terrorist" gives him a status he doesn't deserve.
    Sorry, it's just a huge wtf. By your definition I don't think even 9/11 would be terrorism.

    The IRA were obviously terrorists by any normal definition. The difference with Hungerford or Dunblane is whether the goal is *political*.

    Now, for all I know you may be right that it's practically useful when trying to prevent terrorism not to call terrorists terrorists, or to call non-terrorists terrorists for that matter, but that doesn't change the actual meaning of the word.
    Surely the point that defines terrorism is the extent to which 'terror' is sparked? Thus the Westiminster and London bridge incidents are terrorism because they spark (a largely irrational but perfectly understandable) fear that 'it might happen to me or my friends or family'.

    That fear then provokes changes of behaviour and potentially limits our freedom. It's irrational because you are more likely to die in a car accident or from air pollution but it's hard not to feel the effects.

    Terrorists deliberately set out to destablise society by spreading terror.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 16,461
    edited August 13
    I agree with almost everything Keiran writes.

    One point: the current emboldening of neo-Nazis surely would not have happened if Donald Trump had not been elected. While I agree that not all or even most Trump supporters are sympathetic to them, far too many are. The Alt-Right movement has been supremely relaxed about being associated with such people. We are seeing the consequences.

    It is reasonable to expect those who wish to be considered part of decent society to make a stand. It seems that the Alt-Righters are choosing to go the other way.

    This may yet cross the Atlantic. UKIP may well elect a new leader who would make a crusade against Islam their USP. It could easily find a ready audience in post-Brexit Britain.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 15,320

    ydoethur said:

    a whole thread of english middle class angst

    Trump is the baddy because he's crass and offensive

    So far apart from shooting his mouth off he has actually done very little

    Angela Merkels car industry has killed more people so far this year than Trump but that's ok because she isnt rude about it.

    He's got four months left and he's already threatened to nuke North Korea twice.

    The balance might literally reverse overnight.
    That could happen whoever was the US President.

    I doubt Hilary would have had any hesitation in sending North Korea back to the stone age if it had attacked US territory or in threatening to do so before hand.

    Though that would have been cheered by many as an example of a 'strong woman leader'.

    People will support or criticize the same action depending on whether it is done by 'our side' or 'their side'.
    quite
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 6,454

    Mr. Z, indeed. I imagine there is a statue or two of Julius Caesar in this country. He committed genocide, but there we are.

    If we erase the past that's unacceptable to modern sensibilities then we're not going to have many statues, or buildings, left.

    What about the capital of the US? That's named after a slaveholder. Quite a few statues of him as well.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 17,712
    Ishmael_Z said:

    What seems entirely twattish is proposing to remove an inoffensive and rather good 100 year old equestrian statue, purely in the interests of being twattish and starting a fight. I hope those who instituted the idea are happy now, with the deaths of 2 policemen and one bystander yesterday. It's not like you are going to change the minds of people so stupid they have failed to notice that whites are already supreme in the US, by moving statues about.

    It is pathetic all these cretins nowadays trying to rewrite history and taking offence at things that happened centuries ago. They are the clowns who should be getting arrested. Typical of losers throughout the years , blame someone else for you being crap and envious of other people getting on in life, even if they are dead a few hundred years.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 8,202
    edited August 13


    Surely the point that defines terrorism is the extent to which 'terror' is sparked?

    You can argue that terror is connected, since it's right there in the word, but you have to look at the objective, not the outcome. If you expect to leave the nation shivering with fear but everyone just says yeah whatever, it's shit terrorism, but still terrorism.
  • MJWMJW Posts: 122
    Charles said:

    Don't forget that New Hampshire was one of the States that Kaisch did best in back in 2016. All the poll tells us is that Trump is disliked, not that Kaisch will appeal to anyone else.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Hampshire_Republican_primary,_2016

    It's pretty extraordinary for a sitting president to be out polled by another member of his party after fewer than six months in office. I guess though it tells us something we probably knew already - that a lot of Republicans can see Trump and his politics are appalling, but that the GOP are quite happy wrecking America so long as it harms the Democrats and liberals, hatred of whom seems to be their only animus other than tax cuts for the very wealthy.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 2,704

    a whole thread of english middle class angst

    Trump is the baddy because he's crass and offensive

    So far apart from shooting his mouth off he has actually done very little

    Angela Merkels car industry has killed more people so far this year than Trump but that's ok because she isnt rude about it.

    What a silly post! Angela Merkels owns the whole car industry does she?!
    her government has colluded with the german car industry in suppressing results which are outside legal norms

    like the Dutch and their eggs

    try following whats actually happening instead of being duped by a reality TV star
    Dutch eggs versus potential conflict with North Korea? I know which worries me most.

    Of course, it's hard to blame the EU for the North Korea crisis... Surely Merkel must be behind it somehow?!
    clearly not the 100,000 premature deaths in Europe annually because of diesel fumes

    Europe wont be touched by a NK\USA showdown, but youre happy for 1million plus europeans to die each decade

    as I said you go for the pantomime baddy not the atcual killer
    I am loving how this issue has flipped the left into the rather extreme capitalist position that 100,000s of deaths is an acceptable number, because it is in the interest of shareholder value and you know how they love their divvies.

    And there is nothing ironic about a company founded in 1937 Germany by the Deutsche Arbeitsfront trade union (check out the swastika on their flag) causing industrial scale loss of life by poison gas in the 2010s. No sirree.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 6,568
    Ishmael_Z said:

    What seems entirely twattish is proposing to remove an inoffensive and rather good 100 year old equestrian statue, purely in the interests of being twattish and starting a fight. I hope those who instituted the idea are happy now, with the deaths of 2 policemen and one bystander yesterday. It's not like you are going to change the minds of people so stupid they have failed to notice that whites are already supreme in the US, by moving statues about.

    Disgusting what happened yesterday.

    Agree,Why the hell in the last year the removal of confederate statues,this was only going to cause more divide in a already divided America.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 23,026

    I agree with almost everything Keiran writes.

    One point: the current emboldening of neo-Nazis surely would not have happened if Donald Trump had not been elected. While I agree that not all or even most Trump supporters are sympathetic to them, far too many are. The Alt-Right movement has been supremely relaxed about being associated with such people. We are seeing the consequences.

    It is reasonable to expect those who wish to be considered part of decent society to make a stand. It seems that the Alt-Righters are choosing to go the other way.

    This may yet cross the Atlantic. UKIP may well elect a new leader who would make a crusade against Islam their USP. It could easily find a ready audience in post-Brexit Britain.

    Trump made a white supremacist one of his closest advisers and has spent years courting the alt-right. It's little wonder American Nazis feel empowered. I'd be very surprised if the same thing happened in the UK. Of course, we have our swivel-eyed loons, but a longing for Empire 2.0 rather than a fixation on race seems to guide them. That said, I agree there is a market for some kind of race-baiting political party - perhaps among the 16% of Leave voters who believe all EU nationals should be sent home?

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 37,194
    Mr. Doethur, the Caesar rule probably applies (when a chap is deemed sufficiently famous for good, or at least impressive, reasons, his negative deeds can be ignored).

    My point stands, though, and yours only strengthens it. If we remove every statue and building and name from the modern world which is connected to terrible deeds, what would be left?

    It's ironic we get the "What did the Romans ever do for us?" line, when they also crucified large numbers of people, had an economy built on slavery, and partook in the odd spot of genocide.

    Imposing modern norms on the past is a form of ignorant revisionism that's particularly repulsive.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 978

    a whole thread of english middle class angst

    Trump is the baddy because he's crass and offensive

    So far apart from shooting his mouth off he has actually done very little

    Angela Merkels car industry has killed more people so far this year than Trump but that's ok because she isnt rude about it.

    What a silly post! Angela Merkels owns the whole car industry does she?!
    her government has colluded with the german car industry in suppressing results which are outside legal norms

    like the Dutch and their eggs

    try following whats actually happening instead of being duped by a reality TV star
    Dutch eggs versus potential conflict with North Korea? I know which worries me most.

    Of course, it's hard to blame the EU for the North Korea crisis... Surely Merkel must be behind it somehow?!
    clearly not the 100,000 premature deaths in Europe annually because of diesel fumes

    Europe wont be touched by a NK\USA showdown, but youre happy for 1million plus europeans to die each decade

    as I said you go for the pantomime baddy not the atcual killer
    Diesels were promoted across the west from circa 2000 onwards because they were more fuel efficient. Now we know that they cause deaths through NOx and particulate emissions so they will be phased out. We will move to electric cars over the coming decades... no doubt there will be as yet undiscovered problems with those that will need to be addressed beyond our lifetimes.

    It's definitely all Angela Merkel's fault though!
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 15,320
    Ishmael_Z said:

    a whole thread of english middle class angst

    Trump is the baddy because he's crass and offensive

    So far apart from shooting his mouth off he has actually done very little

    Angela Merkels car industry has killed more people so far this year than Trump but that's ok because she isnt rude about it.

    What a silly post! Angela Merkels owns the whole car industry does she?!
    her government has colluded with the german car industry in suppressing results which are outside legal norms

    like the Dutch and their eggs

    try following whats actually happening instead of being duped by a reality TV star
    Dutch eggs versus potential conflict with North Korea? I know which worries me most.

    Of course, it's hard to blame the EU for the North Korea crisis... Surely Merkel must be behind it somehow?!
    clearly not the 100,000 premature deaths in Europe annually because of diesel fumes

    Europe wont be touched by a NK\USA showdown, but youre happy for 1million plus europeans to die each decade

    as I said you go for the pantomime baddy not the atcual killer
    I am loving how this issue has flipped the left into the rather extreme capitalist position that 100,000s of deaths is an acceptable number, because it is in the interest of shareholder value and you know how they love their divvies.

    And there is nothing ironic about a company founded in 1937 Germany by the Deutsche Arbeitsfront trade union (check out the swastika on their flag) causing industrial scale loss of life by poison gas in the 2010s. No sirree.
    Yes it's Saddiq Khan STFU

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 23,026

    a whole thread of english middle class angst

    Trump is the baddy because he's crass and offensive

    So far apart from shooting his mouth off he has actually done very little

    Angela Merkels car industry has killed more people so far this year than Trump but that's ok because she isnt rude about it.

    What a silly post! Angela Merkels owns the whole car industry does she?!
    her government has colluded with the german car industry in suppressing results which are outside legal norms

    like the Dutch and their eggs

    try following whats actually happening instead of being duped by a reality TV star
    Dutch eggs versus potential conflict with North Korea? I know which worries me most.

    Of course, it's hard to blame the EU for the North Korea crisis... Surely Merkel must be behind it somehow?!
    clearly not the 100,000 premature deaths in Europe annually because of diesel fumes

    Europe wont be touched by a NK\USA showdown, but youre happy for 1million plus europeans to die each decade

    as I said you go for the pantomime baddy not the atcual killer

    It's a tad optimistic, I think, to say a nuclear war between the US and North Korea won't have repurcussions for Europe. I can see one or two ways in which it may have some implications.

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 15,320

    I agree with almost everything Keiran writes.

    One point: the current emboldening of neo-Nazis surely would not have happened if Donald Trump had not been elected. While I agree that not all or even most Trump supporters are sympathetic to them, far too many are. The Alt-Right movement has been supremely relaxed about being associated with such people. We are seeing the consequences.

    It is reasonable to expect those who wish to be considered part of decent society to make a stand. It seems that the Alt-Righters are choosing to go the other way.

    This may yet cross the Atlantic. UKIP may well elect a new leader who would make a crusade against Islam their USP. It could easily find a ready audience in post-Brexit Britain.

    Trump made a white supremacist one of his closest advisers and has spent years courting the alt-right. It's little wonder American Nazis feel empowered. I'd be very surprised if the same thing happened in the UK. Of course, we have our swivel-eyed loons, but a longing for Empire 2.0 rather than a fixation on race seems to guide them. That said, I agree there is a market for some kind of race-baiting political party - perhaps among the 16% of Leave voters who believe all EU nationals should be sent home?

    Labour is led by a man who approves of murder andtotalitarian suppression

    that's a bit closer to home

    where's the outrage ?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 15,881

    Mr. B, I don't dispute that, but the best time for military intervention, if it comes to that, is early on. Saw a snippet of Sky News with a former adviser to Obama who claimed they'd successfully contained the threat. Assuming that's a genuine belief and not spin, it shows a dangerous level of delusion.

    Right now, Trump's options are for a massive regional war, or peace at the cost of letting a lunatic leader of a despotic regime get nuclear weapons *and* letting every tyrant in the world know that even the US won't lift a finger if you get nukes, drastically increasing the future prospects of a nuclear war.

    It shows the mess that we are in that we attacked and killed Saddam because he was claimed to have weapons of mass destruction (in truth, even at its peak, some pretty ineffective and local chemical weapons) but a country that is genuinely developing the capacity to deliver a weapon of mass destruction becomes untouchable.

    I really don't know what the solution to NK is but I am glad I am not in SK at the moment. Incredibly one of my daughter's friends is going to SK for an Erasmus year shortly. I am really glad my daughter is going to Holland instead. All she has to watch out for there is the eggs (and the German cars, natch).
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 978
    malcolmg said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    What seems entirely twattish is proposing to remove an inoffensive and rather good 100 year old equestrian statue, purely in the interests of being twattish and starting a fight. I hope those who instituted the idea are happy now, with the deaths of 2 policemen and one bystander yesterday. It's not like you are going to change the minds of people so stupid they have failed to notice that whites are already supreme in the US, by moving statues about.

    It is pathetic all these cretins nowadays trying to rewrite history and taking offence at things that happened centuries ago. They are the clowns who should be getting arrested. Typical of losers throughout the years , blame someone else for you being crap and envious of other people getting on in life, even if they are dead a few hundred years.
    "They are the clowns who should be getting arrested." You mean rather than the guy would deliberately rammed and killed a pedestrian?

    OTH, I do broadly agree with wider sentiment about the stupidity of trying to re-write history and removal of historic statues does seem perverse - better to provide comprehensive information about the subject's achievements, good and bad.

    (On the other, other hand how many statues of Adolf Hitler still exist? And would anyone argue for their retention? That's my problem - too many hands!)
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 978

    I agree with almost everything Keiran writes.

    One point: the current emboldening of neo-Nazis surely would not have happened if Donald Trump had not been elected. While I agree that not all or even most Trump supporters are sympathetic to them, far too many are. The Alt-Right movement has been supremely relaxed about being associated with such people. We are seeing the consequences.

    It is reasonable to expect those who wish to be considered part of decent society to make a stand. It seems that the Alt-Righters are choosing to go the other way.

    This may yet cross the Atlantic. UKIP may well elect a new leader who would make a crusade against Islam their USP. It could easily find a ready audience in post-Brexit Britain.

    Trump made a white supremacist one of his closest advisers and has spent years courting the alt-right. It's little wonder American Nazis feel empowered. I'd be very surprised if the same thing happened in the UK. Of course, we have our swivel-eyed loons, but a longing for Empire 2.0 rather than a fixation on race seems to guide them. That said, I agree there is a market for some kind of race-baiting political party - perhaps among the 16% of Leave voters who believe all EU nationals should be sent home?

    Labour is led by a man who approves of murder andtotalitarian suppression

    that's a bit closer to home

    where's the outrage ?
    Where's the evidence?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 23,026

    I agree with almost everything Keiran writes.

    One point: the current emboldening of neo-Nazis surely would not have happened if Donald Trump had not been elected. While I agree that not all or even most Trump supporters are sympathetic to them, far too many are. The Alt-Right movement has been supremely relaxed about being associated with such people. We are seeing the consequences.

    It is reasonable to expect those who wish to be considered part of decent society to make a stand. It seems that the Alt-Righters are choosing to go the other way.

    This may yet cross the Atlantic. UKIP may well elect a new leader who would make a crusade against Islam their USP. It could easily find a ready audience in post-Brexit Britain.

    Trump made a white supremacist one of his closest advisers and has spent years courting the alt-right. It's little wonder American Nazis feel empowered. I'd be very surprised if the same thing happened in the UK. Of course, we have our swivel-eyed loons, but a longing for Empire 2.0 rather than a fixation on race seems to guide them. That said, I agree there is a market for some kind of race-baiting political party - perhaps among the 16% of Leave voters who believe all EU nationals should be sent home?

    Labour is led by a man who approves of murder andtotalitarian suppression

    that's a bit closer to home

    where's the outrage ?

    Corbyn is an absolute disgrace. His weasel words on Venezuela sicken me as much as Trump's on Charlottesville. His appointment of apologists for Stalinism to his leadership team are as repunant as Trump's appointment of Bannon. OK?



  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 2,704

    a whole thread of english middle class angst

    Trump is the baddy because he's crass and offensive

    So far apart from shooting his mouth off he has actually done very little

    Angela Merkels car industry has killed more people so far this year than Trump but that's ok because she isnt rude about it.

    What a silly post! Angela Merkels owns the whole car industry does she?!
    her government has colluded with the german car industry in suppressing results which are outside legal norms

    like the Dutch and their eggs

    try following whats actually happening instead of being duped by a reality TV star
    Dutch eggs versus potential conflict with North Korea? I know which worries me most.

    Of course, it's hard to blame the EU for the North Korea crisis... Surely Merkel must be behind it somehow?!
    clearly not the 100,000 premature deaths in Europe annually because of diesel fumes

    Europe wont be touched by a NK\USA showdown, but youre happy for 1million plus europeans to die each decade

    as I said you go for the pantomime baddy not the atcual killer
    Diesels were promoted across the west from circa 2000 onwards because they were more fuel efficient. Now we know that they cause deaths through NOx and particulate emissions so they will be phased out. We will move to electric cars over the coming decades... no doubt there will be as yet undiscovered problems with those that will need to be addressed beyond our lifetimes.

    It's definitely all Angela Merkel's fault though!
    "Diesel particulate filtering was first considered in the 1970s due to concerns regarding the impacts of inhaled particulates.[11] Particulate filters have been in use on non-road machines since 1980, and in automobiles since 1985.[12][13] Historically medium and heavy duty diesel engine emissions were not regulated until 1987 when the first California Heavy Truck rule was introduced capping particulate emissions at 0.60 g/BHP Hour.[14] Since then, progressively tighter standards have been introduced for light- and heavy-duty roadgoing diesel-powered vehicles and for off-road diesel engines. Similar regulations have also been adopted by the European Union and some individual European countries, most Asian countries, and the rest of North and South America."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_particulate_filter#History
    What does your unforced error say your attitude to history, science, and the truth, would you say?



  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 12,843
    MJW said:

    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    tlg86 said:

    The US gives the impression of being a failed state right now. It is so utterly divided that it's hard to see how the pieces can be put back together again.

    Venezuela looks like a failed state. As disturbing as the events in Virginia are, they are not representative of what's going on in the US at large.
    Actual Nazis on the march isn't quite enough for you.
    There were people at that stupid march who voted twice for Obama. Until the left understands the underlying reason for anger in much of white America they can give up on winning the White House. What's more is that 8 years of Trump will reverse the demographic advantage that the Dems were building up.

    Whatever one thinks of Obama, he was on the side of blue collar white America (or at least appeared to be). Bernie also is. The rest of the Dems? Not even close. They seem more concerned with Transgender rights (something which affects maybe 20,000 Americans) than with ensuring that there are enough jobs being created in blue collar America. Whether that is true or not, it is the impression they give. The Dems have pandered to Generation Tumblr and now have no natural base given that blue collar whites are apparently all Nazis.
    Nonsense. While it's true there are hundreds of thousands who voted Obama and then Trump, they weren't the kind of people who were on that march - who were actual, flag carrying, tattooed, pictures of Adolf Hitler on their Facebook walls, Nazis. Not people who are a bit queasy over transgender rights or who blame globalisation for not having a job. Nazis.

    While it's right that the Dems do need to come up with something along the lines of a new economic and social compact for middle-America, there's no excusing actual Nazis or Klan members with tales of blue collar dislocation. It's racism pure and simple.
    My point is that in America the Dems don't make the distinction. Everyone who voted Trump is the same as those marching idiots. Anyone who supports Trump is a Nazi, anyone who isn't 100% supportive of their stance on transgender rights is the same as those marching idiots. This black and white stance is why Trump is pushing small wedge issues like Transgenders in the military. It's a nothing issue in the real world but the Dems righteous fury just pushed ordinary people towards the GOP and Trump because anyone who agrees with Trump is a "Nazi".

    I don't see how the current Dems can beat Trump, he's running rings around them at the moment.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 978

    Ishmael_Z said:

    What seems entirely twattish is proposing to remove an inoffensive and rather good 100 year old equestrian statue, purely in the interests of being twattish and starting a fight. I hope those who instituted the idea are happy now, with the deaths of 2 policemen and one bystander yesterday. It's not like you are going to change the minds of people so stupid they have failed to notice that whites are already supreme in the US, by moving statues about.

    Disgusting what happened yesterday.

    Agree,Why the hell in the last year the removal of confederate statues,this was only going to cause more divide in a already divided America.
    I don't agree with you on much Tykejohnno, but I agree on both these points!
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 23,026
    Ishmael_Z said:

    a whole thread of english middle class angst

    Trump is the baddy because he's crass and offensive

    So far apart from shooting his mouth off he has actually done very little

    Angela Merkels car industry has killed more people so far this year than Trump but that's ok because she isnt rude about it.

    What a silly post! Angela Merkels owns the whole car industry does she?!
    her government has colluded with the german car industry in suppressing results which are outside legal norms

    like the Dutch and their eggs

    try following whats actually happening instead of being duped by a reality TV star
    Dutch eggs versus potential conflict with North Korea? I know which worries me most.

    Of course, it's hard to blame the EU for the North Korea crisis... Surely Merkel must be behind it somehow?!
    clearly not the 100,000 premature deaths in Europe annually because of diesel fumes

    Europe wont be touched by a NK\USA showdown, but youre happy for 1million plus europeans to die each decade

    as I said you go for the pantomime baddy not the atcual killer
    I am loving how this issue has flipped the left into the rather extreme capitalist position that 100,000s of deaths is an acceptable number, because it is in the interest of shareholder value and you know how they love their divvies.

    And there is nothing ironic about a company founded in 1937 Germany by the Deutsche Arbeitsfront trade union (check out the swastika on their flag) causing industrial scale loss of life by poison gas in the 2010s. No sirree.

    The UK left, like the UK right, seems to be totally oblivious to the German diesel scandal.

  • felixfelix Posts: 6,575
    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    tlg86 said:

    The US gives the impression of being a failed state right now. It is so utterly divided that it's hard to see how the pieces can be put back together again.

    Venezuela looks like a failed state. As disturbing as the events in Virginia are, they are not representative of what's going on in the US at large.
    Actual Nazis on the march isn't quite enough for you.
    I think the organisers were claiming 6,000. That's usually a huge over-estimate.

    Even taking it at face value, 6,000 = 0.0018% of the population
    Not sure there is an acceptable number of Nazis.
    Then I'm not sure where you'd like to live since you'd 0.0018% in most countries.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 6,781

    malcolmg said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    What seems entirely twattish is proposing to remove an inoffensive and rather good 100 year old equestrian statue, purely in the interests of being twattish and starting a fight. I hope those who instituted the idea are happy now, with the deaths of 2 policemen and one bystander yesterday. It's not like you are going to change the minds of people so stupid they have failed to notice that whites are already supreme in the US, by moving statues about.

    It is pathetic all these cretins nowadays trying to rewrite history and taking offence at things that happened centuries ago. They are the clowns who should be getting arrested. Typical of losers throughout the years , blame someone else for you being crap and envious of other people getting on in life, even if they are dead a few hundred years.
    "They are the clowns who should be getting arrested." You mean rather than the guy would deliberately rammed and killed a pedestrian?

    OTH, I do broadly agree with wider sentiment about the stupidity of trying to re-write history and removal of historic statues does seem perverse - better to provide comprehensive information about the subject's achievements, good and bad.

    (On the other, other hand how many statues of Adolf Hitler still exist? And would anyone argue for their retention? That's my problem - too many hands!)
    Genuine question, is Robert E Lee comparable with Adolf?

    If you go to Gori in Georgia, you will find a lot of statues of Joseph Stalin. For years, Croatia was not considered for EU membership because they refused to hand over war criminals who Croats considered heros.

    It's very difficult to tell people what they should think of their own people. Was the statue of Robert E Lee causing any harm? Probably not.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 16,655

    Charles said:

    Charles said:


    There's a danger that "terrorism" as a phrase gets so over-used that it loses its power.

    I think you can draw a distinction between someone who tries to change policy (e.g. presumably the motive of this case in Charlotteville) vs. someone who is trying to overthrow the state or society itself.

    In my mind the former is an (alleged) murderer, the second is a terrorist.

    wtf
    Perhaps a counterargument would be interesting...

    Terrorism is more than just committing murder in a spectacular and public way. For example I don't think people talk about Hungerford or Dunblane as acts of terrorism.

    It's also worth noting that the UK government for decades referred to the PIRA as "murderers" rather than "terrorists" because they didn't want to legitimise their campaign. I think referring to the Charlotteville (alleged) murderer as a "terrorist" gives him a status he doesn't deserve.
    Sorry, it's just a huge wtf. By your definition I don't think even 9/11 would be terrorism.

    The IRA were obviously terrorists by any normal definition. The difference with Hungerford or Dunblane is whether the goal is *political*.

    Now, for all I know you may be right that it's practically useful when trying to prevent terrorism not to call terrorists terrorists, or to call non-terrorists terrorists for that matter, but that doesn't change the actual meaning of the word.
    9/11 was clearly part of an overall attempt to overthrown Western society to establish a caliphate. No question about it. The various "lone wolf" (I don't like that phrase as it makes their actions seem somehow noble) "inspired by ISIS" are also aimed at a broader goal. Someone driving a car at a bunch of people because he is unhappy with his lot in life and has decided to blame black people for his failure is in no way comparable.

    Calling non-terrorists "terrorists" cheapens the word - reducing its impact when it is needed - and ironically helps the actual terrorists by spreading fear generally. It's the same way that the press refers to everything as a "tragedy" or a "catastrophe" when they are simply not - it limits our linguist options.
  • 619619 Posts: 1,656
    tlg86 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    What seems entirely twattish is proposing to remove an inoffensive and rather good 100 year old equestrian statue, purely in the interests of being twattish and starting a fight. I hope those who instituted the idea are happy now, with the deaths of 2 policemen and one bystander yesterday. It's not like you are going to change the minds of people so stupid they have failed to notice that whites are already supreme in the US, by moving statues about.

    It is pathetic all these cretins nowadays trying to rewrite history and taking offence at things that happened centuries ago. They are the clowns who should be getting arrested. Typical of losers throughout the years , blame someone else for you being crap and envious of other people getting on in life, even if they are dead a few hundred years.
    "They are the clowns who should be getting arrested." You mean rather than the guy would deliberately rammed and killed a pedestrian?

    OTH, I do broadly agree with wider sentiment about the stupidity of trying to re-write history and removal of historic statues does seem perverse - better to provide comprehensive information about the subject's achievements, good and bad.

    (On the other, other hand how many statues of Adolf Hitler still exist? And would anyone argue for their retention? That's my problem - too many hands!)
    Genuine question, is Robert E Lee comparable with Adolf?

    If you go to Gori in Georgia, you will find a lot of statues of Joseph Stalin. For years, Croatia was not considered for EU membership because they refused to hand over war criminals who Croats considered heros.

    It's very difficult to tell people what they should think of their own people. Was the statue of Robert E Lee causing any harm? Probably not.
    Im thinking that the Violent Nazis just wanted an excuse to be violent.

    If not that statue, then something else would have sufficed
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