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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Looking at conference rhetoric – the politics of fear and the

SystemSystem Posts: 3,967
edited September 27 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Looking at conference rhetoric – the politics of fear and the politics of hope

It has become a truism that political campaigns based on fear are doomed to fail. Positive visions, hope and excitement are what we want, apparently. And there is some evidence to support this: Corbyn’s genuinely inspiring campaigning for what he has said and believed these last four (five?) decades, the increasingly desperate Remain campaign and, of course, May’s abysmal GE campaign, which wholly failed to explain why Corbyn’s choices and what they say about his character, judgment and, therefore, how he would govern would affect voters and in ways which resonated with them.

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Comments

  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 5,530
    New thread! hello!
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 5,530
    Very good thread CF. I have my fear the Tories are too busy navel-gazing to see what real risk Labour are.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 17,017
    Project Fear failed in 2016 because the public didn't think things could get that much worse and felt that they had the luxury of indulging their prejudices. I see nothing to suggest that the public mood has changed on this front. Quite the contrary: the seal has been broken.

    The public is in the mood to keep rolling the dice. The Conservatives need a positive message of their own. Right now, they haven't got any kind of message at all.
  • Excellent header, Ms CycleFree. It's the sort of analysis which should be routine, almost second nature, in CCHQ. Tragically, Mrs May thought otherwise in planning the GE2017 campaign, leaving us in the mess we now find. We can only hope that they start getting their act together before voters find out the hard way what Corbyn and McDonnell intend.

    Meanwhile, I see that today's criticism of the PM from Labour is that she isn't close enough to Donald Trump. Politics is endlessly amusing.
  • Project Fear failed in 2016 because the public didn't think things could get that much worse and felt that they had the luxury of indulging their prejudices. I see nothing to suggest that the public mood has changed on this front. Quite the contrary: the seal has been broken.

    This is the gist of Rafael Behr's article this morning:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/27/brexit-labour-tories-corbynites-right-labour
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 26,149

    Project Fear failed in 2016 because the public didn't think things could get that much worse and felt that they had the luxury of indulging their prejudices. I see nothing to suggest that the public mood has changed on this front. Quite the contrary: the seal has been broken.

    The public is in the mood to keep rolling the dice. The Conservatives need a positive message of their own. Right now, they haven't got any kind of message at all.

    Fact.

    Corbyn as pm worries me in a way ed m or brown never did, but even if my worry is justified merely explaining the worry without credible alternative does not help if people are sick of what's in place.
  • FPT

    Mr. Elliot, welcome to pb.com.

    Mr. Urquhart, indeed. If Corbyn wins, the UK will cease to be a nuclear-armed power, whilst North Korea will become one. And that's without the other, and numerous, alarming prospects if the wretched fool gets into power.

    I am seriously worried the more we hear from team twat. Their ideas are just absolutely bonkers.

    In recent history, I was generally pretty relaxed about if Tory, Labour or Lib Dems got into powers. Of course I had preferences, but none were proposing totally and utterly f##king bonkers break the system stuff, more tinkering and tweaking with at worst silly flawed ideas that would have added unnecessary burdens without really solving problems i.e. Miliband flawed agenda which was based upon a debunked book regarding inequality.
    Isn't the whole point of Corbynism that it is not tinkering and tweaking with the system?

    That's his USP.

    As I think Nick P put it - this is a reboot of the system. A roll of the dice.

    There seems little doubt that something radical needs to be done on housing and inequality. If not then social pressures may become uncontainable.

    My concerns are that:

    a) I am not convinced that McD and comrades believe ultimately in parliamentary democracy and that they circumvent this if needs be.

    b) the whole air of cult around Corbyn is dangerous.

    c) the public need to be fully aware what they might be voting for and the Tories are not up to doing this job because they are so locked up with Brexit.
    I am totally aware of this...that is why I said last night, it is baby out with the bath water.

    I watched an interesting interview with Jordan Peterson the other day in which he talked about this issue across the West.



  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 18,363

    Excellent header, Ms CycleFree. It's the sort of analysis which should be routine, almost second nature, in CCHQ. Tragically, Mrs May thought otherwise in planning the GE2017 campaign, leaving us in the mess we now find. We can only hope that they start getting their act together before voters find out the hard way what Corbyn and McDonnell intend.

    Meanwhile, I see that today's criticism of the PM from Labour is that she isn't close enough to Donald Trump. Politics is endlessly amusing.

    The Conservatives have a reasonable story to tell on the economy. But, they chose not to tell it.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 24,016
    edited September 27
    Sean_F said:

    Excellent header, Ms CycleFree. It's the sort of analysis which should be routine, almost second nature, in CCHQ. Tragically, Mrs May thought otherwise in planning the GE2017 campaign, leaving us in the mess we now find. We can only hope that they start getting their act together before voters find out the hard way what Corbyn and McDonnell intend.

    Meanwhile, I see that today's criticism of the PM from Labour is that she isn't close enough to Donald Trump. Politics is endlessly amusing.

    The Conservatives have a reasonable story to tell on the economy. But, they chose not to tell it.
    I am still waiting for the Tory GE campaign to start.....it was only in the last week that they even started to attack Corbyn, but not his bonkers policies or provide anything positive.

    All that people will remember about the Tory GE campaign was dementia tax and that is it.

    I still can't believe that didn't even get out in front and announce say £200-300 million extra for the NHS by 2022...i.e yes we are doing what the bus said....in real terms it wouldn't have cost that much and would have allowed bungling Boris to do his thing, while with an aging and growing population also the right thing to do.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 41,377

    Project Fear failed in 2016 because the public didn't think things could get that much worse and felt that they had the luxury of indulging their prejudices. I see nothing to suggest that the public mood has changed on this front. Quite the contrary: the seal has been broken.

    The public is in the mood to keep rolling the dice. The Conservatives need a positive message of their own. Right now, they haven't got any kind of message at all.

    Of course individual circumstances vary but right now things couldn't really be any better on a macro-scale. Lowish inflation, very low unemployment, strongish FTSE..
    Negatives are we're not building nearly enough houses still, and generational wealth inequality is high enough that the likes of Corbyn have a ready audience.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 17,017

    Project Fear failed in 2016 because the public didn't think things could get that much worse and felt that they had the luxury of indulging their prejudices. I see nothing to suggest that the public mood has changed on this front. Quite the contrary: the seal has been broken.

    This is the gist of Rafael Behr's article this morning:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/27/brexit-labour-tories-corbynites-right-labour
    I agree with that article. He makes far more elegantly than me many of the points that I have been making for some months.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 6,999
    If you want ideologies making people worse off, look no further than Brexit brought to you by those lovely people in the Tory party.

    The point being it might be hard for the Tory party to mount the campaign Cyclefree suggests.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 24,016
    edited September 27
    Pulpstar said:

    Project Fear failed in 2016 because the public didn't think things could get that much worse and felt that they had the luxury of indulging their prejudices. I see nothing to suggest that the public mood has changed on this front. Quite the contrary: the seal has been broken.

    The public is in the mood to keep rolling the dice. The Conservatives need a positive message of their own. Right now, they haven't got any kind of message at all.

    Of course individual circumstances vary but right now things couldn't really be any better on a macro-scale. Lowish inflation, very low unemployment, strongish FTSE..
    Negatives are we're not building nearly enough houses still, and generational wealth inequality is high enough that the likes of Corbyn have a ready audience.
    The last point...It isn't necessarily inequality, but lack of opportunity / feeling of being left behind by the modern world.

    It is why Trump had an audience and Brexit....the most striking thing I remember was the video that John Harris did from Stoke and he interviewed an Asian guy who when Harris said, yeah but what about the financial impact of leaving the EU, he said (to paraphrase) look around here, its a shit hole, its been a shit hole all my life, how could it get any worse.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 26,149
    Jonathan said:

    If you want ideologies making people worse off, look no further than Brexit brought to you by those lovely people in the Tory party.

    The point being it might be hard for the Tory party to mount the campaign Cyclefree suggests.

    Brexit was offered by the tories, though plenty of tories advised us not to do it and the public including labour and lib Dem voters took the offer up. It's the publics fault, people like me.

    However it is true it seems hard for the tories to offer what they need to.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 17,017
    Jonathan said:

    If you want ideologies making people worse off, look no further than Brexit brought to you by those lovely people in the Tory party.

    The point being it might be hard for the Tory party to mount the campaign Cyclefree suggests.

    We have two deeply malign ideologies in play simultaneously, each feeding off the other.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 6,999
    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    If you want ideologies making people worse off, look no further than Brexit brought to you by those lovely people in the Tory party.

    The point being it might be hard for the Tory party to mount the campaign Cyclefree suggests.

    Brexit was offered by the tories, though plenty of tories advised us not to do it and the public including labour and lib Dem voters took the offer up. It's the publics fault, people like me.

    However it is true it seems hard for the tories to offer what they need to.
    Politics is hard and sometimes unfair. If Brexit goes wrong, the blame will fall on the incumbent govt whoever that might be.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 14,698

    Project Fear failed in 2016 because the public didn't think things could get that much worse and felt that they had the luxury of indulging their prejudices. I see nothing to suggest that the public mood has changed on this front. Quite the contrary: the seal has been broken.

    This is the gist of Rafael Behr's article this morning:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/27/brexit-labour-tories-corbynites-right-labour
    And still they don't learn: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/boris-johnson-hosts-hard-brexit-lobby-group-liam-fox-institute-for-free-trade-john-moynihan-daniel-hannan-ctbszhchz

    Boris Johnson will host the launch of a think tank which is pushing for a hard Brexit at a Foreign Office event in the latest test of cabinet unity.

    Liam Fox, the international trade secretary, will also speak at the launch of the Institute for Free Trade in the map room in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office this evening. The reception will not be open to the media.

    The think tank says it wants to change policy by calling for Britain to abandon European product standards, even though this could jeopardise a softer Brexit.

    The Institute for Free Trade is chaired by Jon Moynihan, a member of the board of the Vote Leave campaign, and led by Daniel Hannan, the Conservative MEP. It wants to influence the final Brexit deal by approaching businesses and government ministers independently of the Department for International Trade.
  • Fantastic piece. There are now four arguments for everyone to the left of Ken Clarke holding their nose and electing a Corbyn government. #1 The Laxative argument. The country has clearly taken leave of it's senses and entered a decade of decline at the very least. We might as well speed the process up. #2 The Penal argument. What the Tories have done on Brexit is so extreme they must be punished whatever the costs. #3 The Beauty argument. If our choice is between undeliverable fantasies Corbyn's Cornucopia looks nicer than Brexiteers Dystopia. #4 The Dice argument. That a Boris Brexit is so extreme and so impactful for decades to come gambling on Corbyn is actually the rational thing to do.

    In CycleFrees terms as Brexit consumes it's own children the Tories will provide the Fear and Corbyn will provide the next simple and compelling story.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 24,016
    edited September 27
    Stokes is in...also a big loss with departure of Ottis Gibson.

    The seamers will work with former New Zealand pace bowler Shane Bond, who has been appointed as fast bowling consultant for the tour after former bowling coach Ottis Gibson's departure to become South Africa head coach.

    http://www.bbc.com/sport/cricket/41409370
  • Such a Labour government will impoverish the UK in very short order. Corbyn and his acolytes may well want this, but the vast majority of the PLP (mostly still not Corbynistas) will not.

    To change the PLP sufficiently, and implement Bolshevik-style socialism, Corbyn needs more than one term, something he wont get.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 38,384
    Mr. Bridge, why not?

    Corbyn needs to change the rules. If he can do that, his successor will be similarly equipped with obsolete intellectual equipment.

    Labour MPs need to stop singing "Oh, Jeremy Corbyn" and get their party back into the hands of the sane.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 6,999
    Tories need to get their head around the concept that for many of us in GE17 Corbyn and Labour were the safer bet.
  • Project Fear failed in 2016 because the public didn't think things could get that much worse and felt that they had the luxury of indulging their prejudices. I see nothing to suggest that the public mood has changed on this front. Quite the contrary: the seal has been broken.

    This is the gist of Rafael Behr's article this morning:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/27/brexit-labour-tories-corbynites-right-labour
    I agree with that article. He makes far more elegantly than me many of the points that I have been making for some months.

    Radical anti-establishment movements have gained ground in most western democracies in recent years, without the benefit of Brexit. We have Trump in the US after all.

    Behr's argument is a false one that confuses cause and effect.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 38,384
    Mr. Jonathan, how?

    Corbyn backed (in the GE) leaving the single market and customs union. And he's a unilateralist friend of Hamas and Hezbollah. What's the upside?
  • Jonathan said:

    Tories need to get their head around the concept that for many of us in GE17 Corbyn and Labour were the safer bet.

    Correction: Tories need to get their head around the concept that many of you thought that in GE17 Corbyn and Labour were the safer bet.
  • Mr. Bridge, why not?

    Corbyn needs to change the rules. If he can do that, his successor will be similarly equipped with obsolete intellectual equipment.

    Labour MPs need to stop singing "Oh, Jeremy Corbyn" and get their party back into the hands of the sane.

    Happy to consider a second term for Corbyn is possible if you show me examples of where radical Marxist economics a la Mcdonnell have delivered prosperity and security to voters.

    Perhaps he will just decide that these pesky elections are no longer needed, after the final victory of socialism....

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 6,999

    Mr. Jonathan, how?

    Corbyn backed (in the GE) leaving the single market and customs union. And he's a unilateralist friend of Hamas and Hezbollah. What's the upside?

    He is far more pragmatic on Brexit, certainly no mad "no deal is better than a bad deal" extremist and generally less susceptible to the pure Brexit ideologues than May. He has Starmer, who I trust on Brexit more than virtually any other UK pol. And in the GE he looked generally more competent and articulate than May.

    Together, they were the safer option.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 107

    Project Fear failed in 2016 because the public didn't think things could get that much worse and felt that they had the luxury of indulging their prejudices. I see nothing to suggest that the public mood has changed on this front. Quite the contrary: the seal has been broken.

    The public is in the mood to keep rolling the dice. The Conservatives need a positive message of their own. Right now, they haven't got any kind of message at all.

    I'm afraid that, as the header implies, we have to prepare ourselves for the vicissitudes of a Corbyn government; the Tories show no sign of taking this advice, and I'm not sure their stumbling, myopic alternative is any less destructive, to be honest - just slower-acting.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 2,113

    Mr. Bridge, why not?

    Corbyn needs to change the rules. If he can do that, his successor will be similarly equipped with obsolete intellectual equipment.

    Labour MPs need to stop singing "Oh, Jeremy Corbyn" and get their party back into the hands of the sane.

    Yes but whatever Labour party before Corbyn it was denounced also as a threat to national security and Marxist look how Milliband and Balls were treated.You cry wolf to often the less they believe you.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 18,363

    Fantastic piece. There are now four arguments for everyone to the left of Ken Clarke holding their nose and electing a Corbyn government. #1 The Laxative argument. The country has clearly taken leave of it's senses and entered a decade of decline at the very least. We might as well speed the process up. #2 The Penal argument. What the Tories have done on Brexit is so extreme they must be punished whatever the costs. #3 The Beauty argument. If our choice is between undeliverable fantasies Corbyn's Cornucopia looks nicer than Brexiteers Dystopia. #4 The Dice argument. That a Boris Brexit is so extreme and so impactful for decades to come gambling on Corbyn is actually the rational thing to do.

    In CycleFrees terms as Brexit consumes it's own children the Tories will provide the Fear and Corbyn will provide the next simple and compelling story.

    Among hardline Remainers, there is certainly a strong desire to get their own back on a country that let them down, and supporting Corbyn is part of that.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 6,999

    Jonathan said:

    Tories need to get their head around the concept that for many of us in GE17 Corbyn and Labour were the safer bet.

    Correction: Tories need to get their head around the concept that many of you thought that in GE17 Corbyn and Labour were the safer bet.
    The Tory campaign was hinged on the idea that Corbyn was a dog whistle for their vote. They totally overlooked that their campaign and leader was a massive recruiting sergeant for the left. I don't think they get that yet.

    I am no Corbyn fan, but he was the better of the two.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 3,407
    Both Labour's Corbynism and the Tories Brexit are the same thing - retreats from reality and pining for the rebirth of a rosy, fantasy past that never really existed.

    I may have to move even more assets out of the UK than I planned to do ...
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 875
    Sean_F said:

    Excellent header, Ms CycleFree. It's the sort of analysis which should be routine, almost second nature, in CCHQ. Tragically, Mrs May thought otherwise in planning the GE2017 campaign, leaving us in the mess we now find. We can only hope that they start getting their act together before voters find out the hard way what Corbyn and McDonnell intend.

    Meanwhile, I see that today's criticism of the PM from Labour is that she isn't close enough to Donald Trump. Politics is endlessly amusing.

    The Conservatives have a reasonable story to tell on the economy. But, they chose not to tell it.
    The sound economic management brand value went up in flames with Brexit.

    If they really cared about the economy they'd abandoning the madness or doing BINO.
  • Jonathan said:


    I am no Corbyn fan,

    'Course you're not, Jonathan. 'Course you're not!
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 3,456
    What the tories need is a very, very big gun with no remit other than to plot the downfall of Labour and expose the consequences of its policies. In particular he should have no responsibility for any aspect of BrexitThere is a blindingly obvious candidate, but he is busy editing a newspaper. The appointment would be win/win for him and May, and they have both made it impossible by behaving like childish twats.
  • Trump seems to want to pick a fight with everyone!

    N Korea
    Iran
    The Media
    Black footballers
    Canada
    Bombardier
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 875

    Fantastic piece. There are now four arguments for everyone to the left of Ken Clarke holding their nose and electing a Corbyn government. #1 The Laxative argument. The country has clearly taken leave of it's senses and entered a decade of decline at the very least. We might as well speed the process up. #2 The Penal argument. What the Tories have done on Brexit is so extreme they must be punished whatever the costs. #3 The Beauty argument. If our choice is between undeliverable fantasies Corbyn's Cornucopia looks nicer than Brexiteers Dystopia. #4 The Dice argument. That a Boris Brexit is so extreme and so impactful for decades to come gambling on Corbyn is actually the rational thing to do.

    In CycleFrees terms as Brexit consumes it's own children the Tories will provide the Fear and Corbyn will provide the next simple and compelling story.

    I'm an ex-habitual Conservative voter (natural party of posh boys like me) who will be voting Corbyn due to 80% #2 and 20% #1.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 22,424

    Fantastic piece. There are now four arguments for everyone to the left of Ken Clarke holding their nose and electing a Corbyn government. #1 The Laxative argument. The country has clearly taken leave of it's senses and entered a decade of decline at the very least. We might as well speed the process up. #2 The Penal argument. What the Tories have done on Brexit is so extreme they must be punished whatever the costs. #3 The Beauty argument. If our choice is between undeliverable fantasies Corbyn's Cornucopia looks nicer than Brexiteers Dystopia. #4 The Dice argument. That a Boris Brexit is so extreme and so impactful for decades to come gambling on Corbyn is actually the rational thing to do.

    In CycleFrees terms as Brexit consumes it's own children the Tories will provide the Fear and Corbyn will provide the next simple and compelling story.

    4 good arguments. I can see it happening. Tories lose when they lose their reputation for competence and on economic sanity. Brexit has done for both of these. If we are to have unicorns, I want socialist unicorns.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 24,016
    edited September 27
    People didn't back Corbyn because he was a safer bet, they backed him because they wanted the apple cart turned upside down, same as with Brexit.

    It was a f##k it, whats to lose.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 17,017

    Fantastic piece. There are now four arguments for everyone to the left of Ken Clarke holding their nose and electing a Corbyn government. #1 The Laxative argument. The country has clearly taken leave of it's senses and entered a decade of decline at the very least. We might as well speed the process up. #2 The Penal argument. What the Tories have done on Brexit is so extreme they must be punished whatever the costs. #3 The Beauty argument. If our choice is between undeliverable fantasies Corbyn's Cornucopia looks nicer than Brexiteers Dystopia. #4 The Dice argument. That a Boris Brexit is so extreme and so impactful for decades to come gambling on Corbyn is actually the rational thing to do.

    In CycleFrees terms as Brexit consumes it's own children the Tories will provide the Fear and Corbyn will provide the next simple and compelling story.

    Britain has to go through Brexit before it can get beyond Brexit. The country will be poorer, weaker, meaner and nastier by then. The only question is the degree.

    A Corbyn-led Labour government would not improve matters but it's not obvious that it would be worse than what's currently on offer.

    There is at present no positive option on the horizon.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 38,384
    Mr. Jonathan, I cannot conceive of being content to have a friend of Hamas and Hezbollah in 10 Downing Street. If May marched with banners of Hitler you'd be astounded anyone would support her. Corbyn does that with banners of Stalin. If May said she was was friends with people who throw people off rooftops for being homosexual she'd be lambasted. For Corbyn, that's fine. If May said she wanted to seize private assets and pay a pittance, if anything, to the shareholders, it'd be theft, not to mention robbing pensioners. Corbyn seems to get a free pass.

    I very much hope he loses, and loses badly. If he wins, I fear he'll do more damage to the UK than any event that has happened during my lifetime.

    It's much easier to fuck up something good than to create something good. Just look at the collapse of Argentina's economy some decades ago, or Venezuela more recently. Consider how the good and capable flourished under the Golden Age of Imperial Rome. From Nerva to Marcus Aurelius, men of talent were fostered, protected and respected by emperors, to the benefit of both the men and the emperors themselves.

    Then Commodus culled them for sport. Civil wars resumed, eventually leading to the Crisis of the Third Century.

    A unilateralist who is planning to copy the economic policies of Venezuela, and who I'm sure is very culturally sensitive, stands alarmingly close to power.

    May is lacklustre, uninspiring and mediocre. But the alternative is far worse. As history teaches us, just because a leader may be poor doesn't mean the alternative can't be absolutely disastrous. Just look at Maurice and Flavius Phocas.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 18,363
    Dura_Ace said:

    Fantastic piece. There are now four arguments for everyone to the left of Ken Clarke holding their nose and electing a Corbyn government. #1 The Laxative argument. The country has clearly taken leave of it's senses and entered a decade of decline at the very least. We might as well speed the process up. #2 The Penal argument. What the Tories have done on Brexit is so extreme they must be punished whatever the costs. #3 The Beauty argument. If our choice is between undeliverable fantasies Corbyn's Cornucopia looks nicer than Brexiteers Dystopia. #4 The Dice argument. That a Boris Brexit is so extreme and so impactful for decades to come gambling on Corbyn is actually the rational thing to do.

    In CycleFrees terms as Brexit consumes it's own children the Tories will provide the Fear and Corbyn will provide the next simple and compelling story.

    I'm an ex-habitual Conservative voter (natural party of posh boys like me) who will be voting Corbyn due to 80% #2 and 20% #1.
    A classic case of cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.
  • Ishmael_Z said:

    What the tories need is a very, very big gun with no remit other than to plot the downfall of Labour and expose the consequences of its policies. In particular he should have no responsibility for any aspect of BrexitThere is a blindingly obvious candidate, but he is busy editing a newspaper. The appointment would be win/win for him and May, and they have both made it impossible by behaving like childish twats.

    They'll be plenty of Freezer space left for Jeremy after George has finished with Theresa.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 12,024
    edited September 27
    "If those opposed to this want to make the case for why it will be harmful, they need to start some war gaming of their own."

    :+1:

    The Tories can't though, they are stuck in the vortex of Brexit.

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 6,999

    People didn't back Corbyn because he was a safer bet, they backed him because they wanted the apple cart turned upside down, same as with Brexit.

    It was a f##k it, whats to lose.

    That was no doubt a factor, but again the Tories really need to get that to many he was the safer bet and what that says about them.
  • Squeaky Osborne isn't the man to take down Corbyn. He has never been popular with the public and is an easy target for Team Twat to say look a man of privilege, who only got where he is because he is part of the establishment system.
  • Jonathan said:

    The Tory campaign was hinged on the idea that Corbyn was a dog whistle for their vote. They totally overlooked that their campaign and leader was a massive recruiting sergeant for the left. I don't think they get that yet.

    I am no Corbyn fan, but he was the better of the two.

    I think they get it entirely. Every Conservative I've spoken to was horrified by the incompetence of the campaign, and gobsmacked that, as you say, even Corbyn, of all people on this earth, was able to come out as the better of the two.

    Where I think they haven't yet made much progress is on working out what to do about it, and when, and under whose leadership. To an extent this is inevitable, given that we are stuck with a lame-duck leader, probably for the next couple of years. Obviously there is a grave risk from the Conservatives' point of view that this leaves space for Labour to continue to take the initiative, and a further risk that it could all come crashing down before the party has got its act together. On the other hand, there's a good case for holding our nerve until we have delivered Brexit, both in party-political terms but more importantly in terms of getting the negotiations done.

    It's undoubtedly a very dangerous situation, for the party and the country, but that is where we are.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 38,384
    Mr. City, that's something I largely accept. I would say that the boy who cried wolf knew there wasn't one. I do think Miliband would've been worse than Cameron, but you're right that there's a yawning chasm between Miliband's daft leftwingery and Corbyn's dangerous socialism.

    Mr. Ace, that's a damned foolish argument. Deliberately buggering the country to get your own back on a party because the electorate voted a way you didn't like in a referendum is demented.

    Mr. Meeks, that's palpably not the case. Corbyn's policy is to tax and spend (not 'invest', and the Conservatives [and media] should be pointing this out constantly). Hundreds of billions are already earmarked for frittering away on socialist wet dreams. Nationalise! Tax the rich! Provide free stuff for everyone!

  • Corbyn and McDonnell can only flourish because of May. Replace her with a competent Tory leader and they will soon wither away.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 2,113

    People didn't back Corbyn because he was a safer bet, they backed him because they wanted the apple cart turned upside down, same as with Brexit.

    It was a f##k it, whats to lose.

    True a friend of mine at work years ago in in the Blair years a strong Conservative said to me there will be a revolution in this country.I said give over never in my lifetime. Maybe we are getting c!oser to the " let them eat cake " or " crisis what crisis " moment even though they never said it .
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 14,698

    On the other hand, there's a good case for holding our nerve until we have delivered Brexit, both in party-political terms but more importantly in terms of getting the negotiations done.

    There are only two Brexit outcomes that could be 'done' before the next election: no Brexit, or a catastrophic hard Brexit. Treating it as a 10 year process necessarily involves a date with the electorate.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 13,797
    Labour fringe event last night was from “Friends” of Venezuela, featuring a speech from the Ambassador. No questions were allowed and the journalists present were heckled throughout.

    https://order-order.com/2017/09/27/journalists-heckled-questions-banned-labour-venezuela-event/

    Sounds like Alex Wickham is having a lot of fun in Brighton this week!
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 6,999

    Jonathan said:

    The Tory campaign was hinged on the idea that Corbyn was a dog whistle for their vote. They totally overlooked that their campaign and leader was a massive recruiting sergeant for the left. I don't think they get that yet.

    I am no Corbyn fan, but he was the better of the two.

    I think they get it entirely. Every Conservative I've spoken to was horrified by the incompetence of the campaign, and gobsmacked that, as you say, even Corbyn, of all people on this earth, was able to come out as the better of the two.
    Again not sure you fully get it. It wasn't the campaign (which was bad). It was the underlying product. Both the personnel and the policies. It seemed that 2015-7 the Tories forgot everything that got them into power.

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 17,017

    Mr. City, that's something I largely accept. I would say that the boy who cried wolf knew there wasn't one. I do think Miliband would've been worse than Cameron, but you're right that there's a yawning chasm between Miliband's daft leftwingery and Corbyn's dangerous socialism.

    Mr. Ace, that's a damned foolish argument. Deliberately buggering the country to get your own back on a party because the electorate voted a way you didn't like in a referendum is demented.

    Mr. Meeks, that's palpably not the case. Corbyn's policy is to tax and spend (not 'invest', and the Conservatives [and media] should be pointing this out constantly). Hundreds of billions are already earmarked for frittering away on socialist wet dreams. Nationalise! Tax the rich! Provide free stuff for everyone!

    Do you think the Conservatives are going to get many thank you letters from voters who think that they are wrecking the country?
  • There are only two Brexit outcomes that could be 'done' before the next election: no Brexit, or a catastrophic hard Brexit. Treating it as a 10 year process necessarily involves a date with the electorate.

    That is right in the sense that there will be an ongoing period of reestablishing the relationship, and sorting out lots of important nitty-gritty detail, but the important date in political terms is March 29th 2019. After then, political focus will turn to other matters. Voters don't have a 10-year attention span.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 5,530

    Corbyn and McDonnell can only flourish because of May. Replace her with a competent Tory leader and they will soon wither away.

    Only if the cabinet all sing from the same sheet. The current in-fighting over Brexit is dooming them.

    I cannot beleive they haven't now got a coherent line on Brexit. Even if head's had to roll one way or the other.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 38,384
    Mr. Meeks, the choice at the next election is about who governs us. Not whether you think a referendum held in the past was wise. Not if you like the outcome of past electoral results. People can vote for a party they think will ruin the country if they want to, but it's bloody stupid.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 13,797
    To be fair, Verhofstadt has a good point.

    The Home Office needs to seriously get it’s act in order, any letters suggesting deportation need to be removed from the automated systems and sent out only by senior managers personally. Rudd needs to appoint a minister to oversee this, or else take charge of it herself.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 17,017

    Mr. Meeks, the choice at the next election is about who governs us. Not whether you think a referendum held in the past was wise. Not if you like the outcome of past electoral results. People can vote for a party they think will ruin the country if they want to, but it's bloody stupid.

    What if you think both parties would ruin the country in different ways?
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 8,650
    Safety First didn't work too well in 1929 for Baldwin, but Labour were in trouble within 2 years.

    Carrying icons of the dear leader and chanting Oh Jeremy Corbyn is unusual behaviour, even though it isn't a really a cult. Perhaps the followers are still looking to build a mausoleum at Highgate, with enough gold leaf to cover the short side with Here Lies Jeremy Corbyn.

    The Tories and Lib Dems must to look at their leaderships, policies and campaign methods to defeat Corbyn. Labour learned from Miliband's poor use of social media in 2015, the Tories outflanked him, but sat complacently on their haunches in June.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 12,024
    Sandpit said:

    Labour fringe event last night was from “Friends” of Venezuela, featuring a speech from the Ambassador. No questions were allowed and the journalists present were heckled throughout.

    https://order-order.com/2017/09/27/journalists-heckled-questions-banned-labour-venezuela-event/

    Sounds like Alex Wickham is having a lot of fun in Brighton this week!

    This heckling and attacking of journalists is one of the main reasons I don't buy into the Corbyn dream.

    I think it is unbelievable in a mature democracy and maybe particularly from the Left (aren't these journalists technically 'at work' when they are being abused - where's the union solidarity now?).

    It's a f**** disgrace.

    Shame on Labour.

    This shows how far the party has totally lost its moral compass.

    First they came for the journalists...

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 21,487
    Dura_Ace said:

    Fantastic piece. There are now four arguments for everyone to the left of Ken Clarke holding their nose and electing a Corbyn government. #1 The Laxative argument. The country has clearly taken leave of it's senses and entered a decade of decline at the very least. We might as well speed the process up. #2 The Penal argument. What the Tories have done on Brexit is so extreme they must be punished whatever the costs. #3 The Beauty argument. If our choice is between undeliverable fantasies Corbyn's Cornucopia looks nicer than Brexiteers Dystopia. #4 The Dice argument. That a Boris Brexit is so extreme and so impactful for decades to come gambling on Corbyn is actually the rational thing to do.

    In CycleFrees terms as Brexit consumes it's own children the Tories will provide the Fear and Corbyn will provide the next simple and compelling story.

    I'm an ex-habitual Conservative voter (natural party of posh boys like me) who will be voting Corbyn due to 80% #2 and 20% #1.
    I might be wrong but I can't recall any posts you made on here in the past supporting the Conservatives.

    Do you have any examples and links to comments from, say, 2015?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 38,384
    Mr. Meeks, you've got a choice between a party that marches with Hitler banners and is friends with people who deny the Holocaust, deny the right of Israel to exist and throw homosexuals off rooftops, and a sensible leftwing party that's currently poorly led. There's no comparison.

    Oh, sorry. I meant "Stalin" banners, not "Hitler". And "rightwing", not "leftwing". But hey, if your moustachioed mass murderer of choice was on the left, it seems nobody cares... *sighs*

    Dr. Spyn, not mere complacency, May was actively incompetent, with the worst manifesto since Herod promised a free grave for every firstborn, and refusing to do things just because Cameron (who was quite good at elections) had done them. Damned silly woman.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 1,336
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Tory campaign was hinged on the idea that Corbyn was a dog whistle for their vote. They totally overlooked that their campaign and leader was a massive recruiting sergeant for the left. I don't think they get that yet.

    I am no Corbyn fan, but he was the better of the two.

    I think they get it entirely. Every Conservative I've spoken to was horrified by the incompetence of the campaign, and gobsmacked that, as you say, even Corbyn, of all people on this earth, was able to come out as the better of the two.
    Again not sure you fully get it. It wasn't the campaign (which was bad). It was the underlying product. Both the personnel and the policies. It seemed that 2015-7 the Tories forgot everything that got them into power.

    All this is true. Corbyn rather easily got the better of May.

    But, he had also gotten the better of Kendall, Burnham, Cooper and Angela Eagle & Owen Smith.

    May made exactly the same mistakes as the Labour centre-left. Everything you have written can have the words "Tories" deleted and the words "Labour moderates" put in its place
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 16,438
    edited September 27
    Jonathan said:

    Again not sure you fully get it. It wasn't the campaign (which was bad). It was the underlying product. Both the personnel and the policies. It seemed that 2015-7 the Tories forgot everything that got them into power.

    It was both, but more the campaign. We could have won a good majority on more or less those policies. To take the most obvious example, there was nothing inherently wrong or unsellable about the social care proposal, but the way it was suddenly dumped on the electorate with zero preparation and with Tory MPs not even knowing about it in advance was spectacularly incompetent, allowing the policy to be misrepresented by our opponents as the diametric opposite of what it actually was. Then the U-turn, plus Theresa May allowing herself to be portrayed as afraid to engage with voters, etc etc etc. Steady as she goes would have worked fine, but we got the worst of both worlds.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 17,017

    Mr. Meeks, you've got a choice between a party that marches with Hitler banners and is friends with people who deny the Holocaust, deny the right of Israel to exist and throw homosexuals off rooftops, and a sensible leftwing party that's currently poorly led. There's no comparison.

    Oh, sorry. I meant "Stalin" banners, not "Hitler". And "rightwing", not "leftwing". But hey, if your moustachioed mass murderer of choice was on the left, it seems nobody cares... *sighs*

    Dr. Spyn, not mere complacency, May was actively incompetent, with the worst manifesto since Herod promised a free grave for every firstborn, and refusing to do things just because Cameron (who was quite good at elections) had done them. Damned silly woman.

    Talk me through that choice again. There's nothing sensible about the Conservatives at present. It's led by headcases who are currently at each other's throats about whether they should invade the continent or merely turn their back on it. They seem determined to obtain the worst possible outcome for Britain from Brexit and to damage as severely as possible the relations between Britain and all of its nearest neighbours.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 21,487
    edited September 27

    Jonathan said:

    The Tory campaign was hinged on the idea that Corbyn was a dog whistle for their vote. They totally overlooked that their campaign and leader was a massive recruiting sergeant for the left. I don't think they get that yet.

    I am no Corbyn fan, but he was the better of the two.

    I think they get it entirely. Every Conservative I've spoken to was horrified by the incompetence of the campaign, and gobsmacked that, as you say, even Corbyn, of all people on this earth, was able to come out as the better of the two.

    Where I think they haven't yet made much progress is on working out what to do about it, and when, and under whose leadership. To an extent this is inevitable, given that we are stuck with a lame-duck leader, probably for the next couple of years. Obviously there is a grave risk from the Conservatives' point of view that this leaves space for Labour to continue to take the initiative, and a further risk that it could all come crashing down before the party has got its act together. On the other hand, there's a good case for holding our nerve until we have delivered Brexit, both in party-political terms but more importantly in terms of getting the negotiations done.

    It's undoubtedly a very dangerous situation, for the party and the country, but that is where we are.
    I think the key political objective for the Conservative is to complete Brexit before GE2022, and change leaders.

    The transition to 2021 is instructive on that but it requires (a) the A50 deal + transition to go through in time for March 2019, and (b) the permanent deal to be in place before that transition ends, so that HMG can declare some measure of political victory upon, and start to build a new consensus around.

    It's still odds against, but they can then go into that election as the 'safe' option with (one hopes) a more competent, optimistic and inspiring leader than May.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 18,363
    The view that nothing could be worse for the country than exiting the EU is, to say the least, myopic.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 2,515
    Sandpit said:

    To be fair, Verhofstadt has a good point.

    The Home Office needs to seriously get it’s act in order, any letters suggesting deportation need to be removed from the automated systems and sent out only by senior managers personally. Rudd needs to appoint a minister to oversee this, or else take charge of it herself.
    However, it isn't a new issue. Highlighting it now is no more than political posturing, and not either helpful or clever.

    I'm sure all the other EU27 equivalent departments are 100% accurate, efficient and perfect all the time.

    We may be the worst, we need to improve, but it will never be perfect and error free, humans are involved (on both sides of the equation).;
  • 1) Is that Winston McKenzie?

    2) What an idiot, have you seen the shoes he's wearing? Red and white, they should be red only, as all the stylish people wear red shoes.
  • He is not helping the EU cause. Who does he think he is
  • On topic, an excellent piece by Miss CycleFree.

    It has been a depressing time for Tories like me since June 23rd 2016.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 2,113
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Tory campaign was hinged on the idea that Corbyn was a dog whistle for their vote. They totally overlooked that their campaign and leader was a massive recruiting sergeant for the left. I don't think they get that yet.

    I am no Corbyn fan, but he was the better of the two.

    I think they get it entirely. Every Conservative I've spoken to was horrified by the incompetence of the campaign, and gobsmacked that, as you say, even Corbyn, of all people on this earth, was able to come out as the better of the two.
    Again not sure you fully get it. It wasn't the campaign (which was bad). It was the underlying product. Both the personnel and the policies. It seemed that 2015-7 the Tories forgot everything that got them into power.

    Jonathan I do not think the Conservatives forgot but they thought Labour was finished under Corbyn and they could in essence do what they like.They took many voters for granted that they had nowhere else to go.My father a Conservative for the first time in his life refused to vote.
  • Sean_F said:

    The view that nothing could be worse for the country than exiting the EU is, to say the least, myopic.

    Quite.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 13,797
    On topic, a very insightful header from Ms @Cyclefree. I hope that senior Conservatives are listening to what’s being said this week, ready to take their arguments apart in no uncertain terms next week.

    The Shadow Chancellor actually said he’s preparing for a run on the pound if he gets elected, and that he’s not afraid to implement currency controls. We all need to think about that for a moment.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 14,698

    It's still odds against, but they can then go into that election as the 'safe' option with (one hopes) a more competent, optimistic and inspiring leader than May.

    If you read the link below about Johnson, Fox and Hannan's 'think tank', it's very hard to see how the party could pose as the 'safe' option. They'd be a sitting duck for a Corbynite campaign.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 8,814
    edited September 27

    Corbyn and McDonnell can only flourish because of May. Replace her with a competent Tory leader and they will soon wither away.

    That will happen but May needs to conclude Brexit by 29th March 2019
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 18,363
    Yorkcity said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Tory campaign was hinged on the idea that Corbyn was a dog whistle for their vote. They totally overlooked that their campaign and leader was a massive recruiting sergeant for the left. I don't think they get that yet.

    I am no Corbyn fan, but he was the better of the two.

    I think they get it entirely. Every Conservative I've spoken to was horrified by the incompetence of the campaign, and gobsmacked that, as you say, even Corbyn, of all people on this earth, was able to come out as the better of the two.
    Again not sure you fully get it. It wasn't the campaign (which was bad). It was the underlying product. Both the personnel and the policies. It seemed that 2015-7 the Tories forgot everything that got them into power.

    Jonathan I do not think the Conservatives forgot but they thought Labour was finished under Corbyn and they could in essence do what they like.They took many voters for granted that they had nowhere else to go.My father a Conservative for the first time in his life refused to vote.
    Treat your opponent as being highly competent, and you'll only ever be pleasantly surprised.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 21,487
    Sean_F said:

    The view that nothing could be worse for the country than exiting the EU is, to say the least, myopic.

    For some, it is, because it strikes at what they see as their core values and they lost to people they despise.

    When those same people try to make a doom-laden case based on economics, it is always worth bearing that in mind.

    Of course, that works both ways as well.
  • Mr. Meeks, you've got a choice between a party that marches with Hitler banners and is friends with people who deny the Holocaust, deny the right of Israel to exist and throw homosexuals off rooftops, and a sensible leftwing party that's currently poorly led. There's no comparison.

    Oh, sorry. I meant "Stalin" banners, not "Hitler". And "rightwing", not "leftwing". But hey, if your moustachioed mass murderer of choice was on the left, it seems nobody cares... *sighs*

    Dr. Spyn, not mere complacency, May was actively incompetent, with the worst manifesto since Herod promised a free grave for every firstborn, and refusing to do things just because Cameron (who was quite good at elections) had done them. Damned silly woman.

    Corbyn = left wing Trump

    He has managed to reawaken and empower a load of hard left marxists and anti-Semites.
  • So Stokes broken finger in right hand. England expect him to be fit for 1st Ashes Test. Warm ups unknown.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 13,797
    edited September 27

    Jonathan said:

    Again not sure you fully get it. It wasn't the campaign (which was bad). It was the underlying product. Both the personnel and the policies. It seemed that 2015-7 the Tories forgot everything that got them into power.

    It was both, but more the campaign. We could have won a good majority on more or less those policies. To take the most obvious example, there was nothing inherently wrong or unsellable about the social care proposal, but the way it was suddenly dumped on the electorate with zero preparation and with Tory MPs not even knowing about it in advance was spectacularly incompetent, allowing the policy to be misrepresented by our opponents as the diametric opposite of what it actually was. Then the U-turn, plus Theresa May allowing herself to be portrayed as afraid to engage with voters, etc etc etc. Steady as she goes would have worked fine, but we got the worst of both worlds.
    Quite. We should have had every minister available on the TV and radio 24/7 for the week after the manifesto came out. A bit of honesty around the issue would have defused it to a large extent.

    Instead we got Corbyn’s rhetoric that appeared to say everyone can buy cheap houses yet inherit expensive ones - when the only housing he would actually build would be council housing for rent.
  • So Stokes broken finger in right hand. England expect him to be fit for 1st Ashes Test. Warm ups unknown.

    Finger or knuckle ?
  • Mr. Meeks, you've got a choice between a party that marches with Hitler banners and is friends with people who deny the Holocaust, deny the right of Israel to exist and throw homosexuals off rooftops, and a sensible leftwing party that's currently poorly led. There's no comparison.

    Oh, sorry. I meant "Stalin" banners, not "Hitler". And "rightwing", not "leftwing". But hey, if your moustachioed mass murderer of choice was on the left, it seems nobody cares... *sighs*

    Dr. Spyn, not mere complacency, May was actively incompetent, with the worst manifesto since Herod promised a free grave for every firstborn, and refusing to do things just because Cameron (who was quite good at elections) had done them. Damned silly woman.

    Talk me through that choice again. There's nothing sensible about the Conservatives at present. It's led by headcases who are currently at each other's throats about whether they should invade the continent or merely turn their back on it. They seem determined to obtain the worst possible outcome for Britain from Brexit and to damage as severely as possible the relations between Britain and all of its nearest neighbours.
    Other than Brexit, how are the Tories being "headcases"?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 13,797
    philiph said:

    Sandpit said:

    To be fair, Verhofstadt has a good point.

    The Home Office needs to seriously get it’s act in order, any letters suggesting deportation need to be removed from the automated systems and sent out only by senior managers personally. Rudd needs to appoint a minister to oversee this, or else take charge of it herself.
    However, it isn't a new issue. Highlighting it now is no more than political posturing, and not either helpful or clever.

    I'm sure all the other EU27 equivalent departments are 100% accurate, efficient and perfect all the time.

    We may be the worst, we need to improve, but it will never be perfect and error free, humans are involved (on both sides of the equation).;
    I don’t disagree with that, but when there’s a story every week in the news about a middle class EU citizen being asked to leave, it makes us look incompetent. Mrs Rudd needs to get a grip, and fast. She is my outside chance for next out of the Cabinet.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 14,698

    Mr. Meeks, you've got a choice between a party that marches with Hitler banners and is friends with people who deny the Holocaust, deny the right of Israel to exist and throw homosexuals off rooftops, and a sensible leftwing party that's currently poorly led. There's no comparison.

    Oh, sorry. I meant "Stalin" banners, not "Hitler". And "rightwing", not "leftwing". But hey, if your moustachioed mass murderer of choice was on the left, it seems nobody cares... *sighs*

    Dr. Spyn, not mere complacency, May was actively incompetent, with the worst manifesto since Herod promised a free grave for every firstborn, and refusing to do things just because Cameron (who was quite good at elections) had done them. Damned silly woman.

    Talk me through that choice again. There's nothing sensible about the Conservatives at present. It's led by headcases who are currently at each other's throats about whether they should invade the continent or merely turn their back on it. They seem determined to obtain the worst possible outcome for Britain from Brexit and to damage as severely as possible the relations between Britain and all of its nearest neighbours.
    Other than Brexit, how are the Tories being "headcases"?
    Other than Brexit, what is the government doing?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 17,017

    Mr. Meeks, you've got a choice between a party that marches with Hitler banners and is friends with people who deny the Holocaust, deny the right of Israel to exist and throw homosexuals off rooftops, and a sensible leftwing party that's currently poorly led. There's no comparison.

    Oh, sorry. I meant "Stalin" banners, not "Hitler". And "rightwing", not "leftwing". But hey, if your moustachioed mass murderer of choice was on the left, it seems nobody cares... *sighs*

    Dr. Spyn, not mere complacency, May was actively incompetent, with the worst manifesto since Herod promised a free grave for every firstborn, and refusing to do things just because Cameron (who was quite good at elections) had done them. Damned silly woman.

    Talk me through that choice again. There's nothing sensible about the Conservatives at present. It's led by headcases who are currently at each other's throats about whether they should invade the continent or merely turn their back on it. They seem determined to obtain the worst possible outcome for Britain from Brexit and to damage as severely as possible the relations between Britain and all of its nearest neighbours.
    Other than Brexit, how are the Tories being "headcases"?
    "Other than Brexit"? This government is Brexit. It has no other purpose. How else do you propose to evaluate it?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 8,726
    Newcastle was used for an experiment with Universal Credit and it was a disaster now its being rolled out everywhere

    Theresa May 'asleep at the wheel' as US slaps 220% tariff on Bombardier jet imports.

    Jeremy Corbyn - Prime Minister In Waiting #Lab17
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 22,424
    edited September 27
    Yorkcity said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Tory campaign was hinged on the idea that Corbyn was a dog whistle for their vote. They totally overlooked that their campaign and leader was a massive recruiting sergeant for the left. I don't think they get that yet.

    I am no Corbyn fan, but he was the better of the two.

    I think they get it entirely. Every Conservative I've spoken to was horrified by the incompetence of the campaign, and gobsmacked that, as you say, even Corbyn, of all people on this earth, was able to come out as the better of the two.
    Again not sure you fully get it. It wasn't the campaign (which was bad). It was the underlying product. Both the personnel and the policies. It seemed that 2015-7 the Tories forgot everything that got them into power.

    Jonathan I do not think the Conservatives forgot but they thought Labour was finished under Corbyn and they could in essence do what they like.They took many voters for granted that they had nowhere else to go.My father a Conservative for the first time in his life refused to vote.
    The mask slipped, and we could see what the Tories wanted to do if they didn't need to soften things for the centrists.

    Though actually I was one of the few posters here who thought their social care scheme an improvement. Not as good as the work that the LDs had done in coalition, but progress.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 16,570
    Good header. The Tories need positive messages as well as pointing out the inadequacy of Corbyn. I fear this government's obsession with Brexit, however understandable, risks a lack of sufficient attention to other pressing problems.

    Alastair describes Brexit as a second order issue. I don't quite agree but the Tories need to show they have a wider and positive vision for the country they aspire to rule.

    In other news I am just off to the Oval for the ODI as a birthday treat to myself.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 57,213
    edited September 27
    The only things the office has picked up from the Labour conference

    1) The run on the pound that follows a Corbyn Premiership.

    2) Emma Dent-Coad's bull poop on Prince Harry and others wanting to guillotine The Royals.

    Oddly 2) seems to be more damaging for Labour than 1)

    But Emma Dent-Coad's not all bad, she got rid of the horrendous Victoria Borwick.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 22,424
    edited September 27

    Mr. Meeks, you've got a choice between a party that marches with Hitler banners and is friends with people who deny the Holocaust, deny the right of Israel to exist and throw homosexuals off rooftops, and a sensible leftwing party that's currently poorly led. There's no comparison.

    Oh, sorry. I meant "Stalin" banners, not "Hitler". And "rightwing", not "leftwing". But hey, if your moustachioed mass murderer of choice was on the left, it seems nobody cares... *sighs*

    Dr. Spyn, not mere complacency, May was actively incompetent, with the worst manifesto since Herod promised a free grave for every firstborn, and refusing to do things just because Cameron (who was quite good at elections) had done them. Damned silly woman.

    Talk me through that choice again. There's nothing sensible about the Conservatives at present. It's led by headcases who are currently at each other's throats about whether they should invade the continent or merely turn their back on it. They seem determined to obtain the worst possible outcome for Britain from Brexit and to damage as severely as possible the relations between Britain and all of its nearest neighbours.
    Other than Brexit, how are the Tories being "headcases"?
    "Other than Brexit"? This government is Brexit. It has no other purpose. How else do you propose to evaluate it?
    Indeed it has more or less scrapped the entirety of its own manifesto, and is acting like a magpie with the Labour one. It is not tenable to say the Labour manifesto was an expensive nightmare, then copy it.
  • Mr. Meeks, you've got a choice between a party that marches with Hitler banners and is friends with people who deny the Holocaust, deny the right of Israel to exist and throw homosexuals off rooftops, and a sensible leftwing party that's currently poorly led. There's no comparison.

    Oh, sorry. I meant "Stalin" banners, not "Hitler". And "rightwing", not "leftwing". But hey, if your moustachioed mass murderer of choice was on the left, it seems nobody cares... *sighs*

    Dr. Spyn, not mere complacency, May was actively incompetent, with the worst manifesto since Herod promised a free grave for every firstborn, and refusing to do things just because Cameron (who was quite good at elections) had done them. Damned silly woman.

    Talk me through that choice again. There's nothing sensible about the Conservatives at present. It's led by headcases who are currently at each other's throats about whether they should invade the continent or merely turn their back on it. They seem determined to obtain the worst possible outcome for Britain from Brexit and to damage as severely as possible the relations between Britain and all of its nearest neighbours.
    Other than Brexit, how are the Tories being "headcases"?
    Other than Brexit, what is the government doing?
    You're right. May's prevarication is tiresome and expensive. We should be out already.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 17,017
    I note from this thread that our regular Conservative Leaver supporters have moved on from labelling Remainers as wrong and are now labelling them wrong and perverse. I'm sure that will win them back to the Conservative camp.
  • On topic, an excellent piece by Miss CycleFree.

    It has been a depressing time for Tories like me since June 23rd 2016.

    I agree with you and Brexit is at the heart of the problem. Theresa needs to get a compromise and then stand down.

    However, what is surreal is the thought that a hard line Marxist like Corbyn with his cult following is anywhere near to power, especially with a best PM rating yesterday of 29%.

    We have to accept that the existing political crisis is going to continue for at least the next 2 to 3 years and hope that the conservative party does not act so stupidly to trigger another election with all the risks that would entail
This discussion has been closed.