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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » With the CON conference starting David Herdson says what’s wan

SystemSystem Posts: 3,967
edited September 30 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » With the CON conference starting David Herdson says what’s wanted is vision

“I have a dream”, said Martin Luther King, in one of the greatest speeches of the twentieth century. It was a dream he wanted to share and did share, and it was – and is – remembered not just for the eloquence of that initial delivery but for the righteousness and simplicity of the vision.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,046
    First. Like Labour next time! (?)
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 2,515

    First. Like Labour next time! (?)

    Is that a vision?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,046
    philiph said:

    First. Like Labour next time! (?)

    Is that a vision?
    No; just a conclusion from the mess the Tories are getting themselves into at the moment.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 1,242
    The really big problem that the Conservatives have to face is: what precisely do they stand for? And the answer is a contradiction.

    Mr Herdson talks easily about "One Nation Conservatism" - but that was only an attempt 150 years ago to pass themselves off more or less as Liberals. This discourse sits uncomfortably with the project of real hard-line Tories, both in what they say, what they do, and what they try to do. The real Conservative project is to enhance the wealth and power of those who already have more than enough of these, and to do down everybody else, whom they naturally despise.

    Soft words will not be enough to win voters back to the Tory cause. It transpires that the Liberal Democrats have already overtaken the Conservatives in terms of membership. And the Lib Dems not only have the more appealing image, but also a demonstrable record in government, though this has been sabotaged in recent months by Mrs May`s government.

    The Conservative Party has come to a crossroads, It is time for it to split. I think I know which wing Mr Herdson belongs to. It is the more Liberal wing. He and others like him should dissociate themselves from the hard-liners. They will, I think, be happier when they do.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 2,515
    edited September 30
    Just going through the party leaders in my life. Interesting to attribute 'vision', charisma and success' to them.

    Grimond
    Thorpe
    Steele. . Owen
    Ashdown
    Kennedy
    Campbel
    Clegg
    Farron
    Cable

    Gaitskill
    Wilson
    Callaghan
    Foot
    Kinnock
    Smith
    Blair
    Brown
    Corbyn

    Macmillan
    Douglas-Home
    Heath
    Thatcher
    Major
    Hague
    Duncan-Smth
    Howard
    Cameron
    May
  • Aspiration is a powerful message when the economy is moving forwards and living standards are rising. When folk are struggling to make ends meet it is a much less potent clarion call. Opportunity and fairness might work - but Corbyn's got their first and he's offering Cake And Eat It, which as every Tory Brexiteer knows is a heady, alluring brew.

    The Tories' best chance is, surely, to secure a Brexit deal that does not do too much harm to the economy and to hope that Labour's fragile unity begins to fall apart. That means four more years before an election. The problem is this does not suit the destructive, disloyal, unpatriotic Boris Johnson, to whom the daily-diminishing May has no choice but to give a free hand to damage not only the government but also the UK's international reputation.

    What a mess.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 2,515
    edited September 30
    PClipp said:



    The real Conservative project is to enhance the wealth and power of those who already have more than enough of these, and to do down everybody else, whom they naturally despise.
    Snip

    Take the blinkers off and you will see nothing as you are blinded by your preconceptions and prejudices.

    The sentence I have left above is total crap. Sure, there are some greedy people who vote Conservative, there are some people who exploit others who vote Conservative. However they are not the heart soul or core of the Conservative Party or philosophy. Just as liberals and Labour both have some voters who are unwanted and foul individuals. That is humanity.

    All parties have undesirables attracted to join them. There is an allure, the prospect of power. It is a magnet for undesirables on all sides.

    The belief of most party members (from all the main parties) is that the philosophy they advocate is the best for the country, and that means for the population as a whole.

    Your use of dispise suggests you are victim of brainwashing, inadequate independent thought or completely lack real world experience.
  • philiph said:

    Just going through the party leaders in my life. Interesting to attribute 'vision', charisma and success' to them.

    Grimond
    Thorpe
    Steele. . Owen
    Ashdown
    Kennedy
    Campbel
    Clegg
    Farron
    Cable

    Gaitskill
    Wilson
    Callaghan
    Foot
    Kinnock
    Smith
    Blair
    Brown
    Corbyn

    Macmillan
    Douglas-Home
    Heath
    Thatcher
    Major
    Hague
    Duncan-Smth
    Howard
    Cameron
    May

    What happened to you when Ed Miliband was Labour leader? ;-)

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 31,832

    The Tories' best chance is, surely, to secure a Brexit deal that does not do too much harm to the economy and to hope that Labour's fragile unity begins to fall apart. That means four more years before an election. The problem is this does not suit the destructive, disloyal, unpatriotic Boris Johnson, to whom the daily-diminishing May has no choice but to give a free hand to damage not only the government but also the UK's international reputation.

    He insisted that Britain should refuse to accept any new EU rules or European Court of Justice rulings during the transition period — a position that could be legally impossible to implement — and rule out any further payments to Brussels for single-market access when the transition ends. He also said that the final post-transition deal must not lead to Britain copying Brussels rules to ensure easy access to the single market. Mr Johnson’s interventions stray into areas that have not yet been decided by cabinet. It is not thought that Mrs May will initially challenge any of the foreign secretary’s positions, nor is Downing Street preparing to dismiss him.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/boris-johnson-under-fire-from-ruth-davidson-on-eve-of-tory-conference-tdbtgk97c
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 2,539
    Did David Cameron have a well-defined vision?

    I felt he had a strategy, he certainly had policies which presented him as a different sort of Conservative (Foreign Aid, Gay marriage, Support for the NHS), but it felt to me like his 'vision' of a big society was a little forgotten once in office. He was happy to delegate.

    Still he was PM for 6 years and managed to win a majority - so maybe vision isn't everything.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 2,515
    edited September 30

    philiph said:

    Just going through the party leaders in my life. Interesting to attribute 'vision', charisma and success' to them.

    Grimond
    Thorpe
    Steele. . Owen
    Ashdown
    Kennedy
    Campbel
    Clegg
    Farron
    Cable

    Gaitskill
    Wilson
    Callaghan
    Foot
    Kinnock
    Smith
    Blair
    Brown
    Corbyn

    Macmillan
    Douglas-Home
    Heath
    Thatcher
    Major
    Hague
    Duncan-Smth
    Howard
    Cameron
    May

    What happened to you when Ed Miliband was Labour leader? ;-)

    Amnesia? Was it forgettable? If I only missed one that isn't too bad.

    He is an interesting example, in some ways he had vision, more so than Brown, he lacked public charisma, and was contesting with Cameron who had far more, success alluded him.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 31,832
    This Conservative government is finished. Over. Toast. Dead meat. Broken. Sunk. Wrecked . . . all the words we use in place of a word we don’t. They can do what they like, think what they like, announce what they like, promise what they like but it’s useless now, it’s all too late.

    On the morning after the last general election George Osborne called Theresa May a dead woman walking. If anything he understated. Her personal political death occurred on the pronouncement of the exit poll on election day. Reanimated the following morning, she’s now a zombie prime minister leading a zombie cabinet in a zombie party gathering in Manchester for a conference of the walking dead.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/tories-are-trapped-in-a-zombie-apocalypse-5x3nhzvcz
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,166
    edited September 30
    The line that'll reverberate from Martin Luther King's speech will be after these chancers get their marching orders.......

    FREE AT LAST. FREE AT LAST. THANK GOD ALMIGHTY WE'RE FREE AT LAST!
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 22,424
    PClipp said:

    The really big problem that the Conservatives have to face is: what precisely do they stand for? And the answer is a contradiction.

    Mr Herdson - but that was only an attempt 150 years ago to pass themselves off more or less as Liberals. This discourse sits uncomfortably with the project of real hard-line Tories, both in what they say, what they do, and what they try to do. The real Conservative project is to enhance the wealth and power of those who already have more than enough of these, and to do down everybody else, whom they naturally despise.

    Soft words will not be enough to win voters back to the Tory cause. It transpires that the Liberal Democrats have already overtaken the Conservatives in terms of membership. And the Lib Dems not only have the more appealing image, but also a demonstrable record in government, though this has been sabotaged in recent months by Mrs May`s government.

    The Conservative Party has come to a crossroads, It is time for it to split. I think I know which wing Mr Herdson belongs to. It is the more Liberal wing. He and others like him should dissociate themselves from the hard-liners. They will, I think, be happier when they do.

    The split between One Nation Toryism (Cameronism in its recent form) and its more partisan right wing is a very old one. I recall it dominating the cabinet disputes of the early eighties.

    One Nation Tories see themselves as representing that Blitz/Dunkirk myth of the whole country pulling together against external challenges, while the more factional right (Mrs Thatcher famously used to ask "is he one of us?") see themselves as defending against internal enemies such as Trade Unionists.

    That division is now almost entirely Brexit focussed, rather than on socio-economic issues as in the days of Mrs Thatcher. One Nation Tories can be Leavers, but they see the need to attend to the 48%. The harder Right see Brexit as a way of reforming the country in their image, getting rid of pesky environmental and social regulation, and embracing chlorine soaked chicken as a form of free enterprise.

    These are very different visions of the nation, and the battle for the soul of the Conservative party seems a perpetual one, but the party will not split. Indeed the Conservatives act like an Abzorboluff, absorbing other breakaway parties, such as the National Liberals. Much of the current difficulties are indigestion from eating too much kipper.

    Brexit is a forced choice event though, it is not possible to straddle that divide between the One Nation side and the more partisan right. It is why the Tories are always banging on about Europe. Expect it to dominate the next few years.

    Jezza's masterstroke was to run an election that more or less ignored Brexit, and did the same again at conference. Europe isn't of the same significance in terms of philosophy there, nor for much of the country.

  • Do even the Tories know what they stand for any more? The "wets" of Thatchers era are still about, thinking about a rising tide lifting all ships. Thatcherites appear to have forgotten who she was and are desperate to bin the single market and trading for more city spivvery, genuine entrepreneurialism for coffee shops and a gig economy. Economic rigour of yes it hurt yes it worked for Osborneomics of yes it's agony no it hasn't achieved the core objectives at all.

    And so a divided identity free Tory party finds itself and the country in crisis. Set aside the existential crisis of Brexit which like their economics has utterly failed the core objectives (settle the internal civil war) and look at the existential coat of living crisis.

    Any economist with eyes a brain and an an understanding of economics can see how the current bubble is getting stretched as far as it can before pop time. A viable economy needs punters to consume, and they can't do that whilst wages go backwards and the cost of everything especially housing goes through the roof. Osborne the genius tried to cover the reality gap with consumer credit, and that's also pretty much at the end place before snapping backwards hard.

    A Tory party who have forgotten human decency, who have forgotten free market entrepreneurialism, who think self-preservation of their dwindling ageing members is bigger than country - what are you for?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,166
    PS just heard the new UKIP leader being interviewed. If you thought he couldn't be worse than the last three you're in for a big surprise!!!!!
  • Do even the Tories know what they stand for any more? The "wets" of Thatchers era are still about, thinking about a rising tide lifting all ships. Thatcherites appear to have forgotten who she was and are desperate to bin the single market and trading for more city spivvery, genuine entrepreneurialism for coffee shops and a gig economy. Economic rigour of yes it hurt yes it worked for Osborneomics of yes it's agony no it hasn't achieved the core objectives at all.

    And so a divided identity free Tory party finds itself and the country in crisis. Set aside the existential crisis of Brexit which like their economics has utterly failed the core objectives (settle the internal civil war) and look at the existential coat of living crisis.

    Any economist with eyes a brain and an an understanding of economics can see how the current bubble is getting stretched as far as it can before pop time. A viable economy needs punters to consume, and they can't do that whilst wages go backwards and the cost of everything especially housing goes through the roof. Osborne the genius tried to cover the reality gap with consumer credit, and that's also pretty much at the end place before snapping backwards hard.

    A Tory party who have forgotten human decency, who have forgotten free market entrepreneurialism, who think self-preservation of their dwindling ageing members is bigger than country - what are you for?

    Come on - the Tories can be wrong and misguided, without having forgotten human decency. Good people do not all see the world in the same way.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 13,797
    edited September 30
    A good article David, the party need to rediscover their mojo this week after a disappointing election earlier this year. Let’s get back to the early days of Mrs May’s premiership, talking about the squeezed middle and aspiration that should be at the core of the Conservative offering. Oh, and Boris needs putting back in his box, he’s acting like some recalcitrant backbencher rather than a senior Secretary of State.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 2,515
    New UKIP leader on the radio.

    I kept on thinking it was Johnathon Agnew. Sounds just like him.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 4,095
    Roger said:

    PS just heard the new UKIP leader being interviewed. If you thought he couldn't be worse than the last three you're in for a big surprise!!!!!

    AND he never played for Tranmere
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 13,797
    F1: dry for the P3 session, Ferraris fastest but amercedes and Red Bull closer than they were yesterday. A couple of incidents at the end as Vettel had an engine issue, and Verstappen and Palmer manage to crash into each other. Qualifying starts in two hours.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 22,424
    Roger said:

    PS just heard the new UKIP leader being interviewed. If you thought he couldn't be worse than the last three you're in for a big surprise!!!!!

    What did he have to say?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 31,832
    Sandpit said:

    Oh, and Boris needs putting back in his box, he’s acting like some recalcitrant backbencher rather than a senior Secretary of State.

    He spends every week penning a new article that says "sack me" in a different form of words.

    It's not immediately clear how to stop that. Other than sack him, which is what he is begging for.
  • Sandpit said:

    A good article David, the party need to rediscover their mojo this week after a disappointing election earlier this year. Let’s get back to the early days of Mrs May’s premiership, talking about the squeezed middle and aspiration that should be at the core of the Conservative offering. Oh, and Boris needs putting back in his box, he’s acting like some recalcitrant backbencher rather than a senior Secretary of State.

    Johnson is more disloyal and self-serving than even Tony Benn was as a cabinet minister in the 74-79 government. Johnson's disloyalty is at Corbyn levels. Yet he is unsackable. That must torture him.

  • philiphphiliph Posts: 2,515
    Scott_P said:

    Sandpit said:

    Oh, and Boris needs putting back in his box, he’s acting like some recalcitrant backbencher rather than a senior Secretary of State.

    He spends every week penning a new article that says "sack me" in a different form of words.

    It's not immediately clear how to stop that. Other than sack him, which is what he is begging for.
    That won't stop the articles!
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 8,650
    edited September 30
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,166

    Roger said:

    PS just heard the new UKIP leader being interviewed. If you thought he couldn't be worse than the last three you're in for a big surprise!!!!!

    What did he have to say?
    Nothing. It was the way he said it!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 13,797
    philiph said:

    Scott_P said:

    Sandpit said:

    Oh, and Boris needs putting back in his box, he’s acting like some recalcitrant backbencher rather than a senior Secretary of State.

    He spends every week penning a new article that says "sack me" in a different form of words.

    It's not immediately clear how to stop that. Other than sack him, which is what he is begging for.
    That won't stop the articles!
    Quite. He’ll be as loyal as one George Osborne when he does leave the job.


  • Come on - the Tories can be wrong and misguided, without having forgotten human decency. Good people do not all see the world in the same way.

    I go on their actions. Let's take the treatment of the disabled as prime example. The policy of persecuting disabled people is directly stripping people of their basic dignity. A system where all the evidence demonstrates that non-medically trained contractors carry out "assessments", Dec
    Are people fit to hit their quota, the disabled person loses not only money but in many cases their car, wheelchair, carer - leaving many unable to leave the house or even be clean - and then the disabled people win their appeals at absurd rates approaching 90%.

    Not only does all of this cost the taxpayer money - as all the withheld monies are returned and the equipment bought again AND the legal fees AND paying the idiots doing the assessments - it seems explicitly designed to treat the disabled as an example to fuel their patron's campaign to demononise everyone of welfare benefits who isn't a pensioner

    So yes. Tories have forgotten human dignity. They choose to ignore these outrages. They don't need to, a change of policy to something humane is all that's needed. I used to blame that evil bastard Duncan Smith. Yet the policy continues and he has gone. Must be his party then.
  • glwglw Posts: 3,853
    philiph said:

    New UKIP leader on the radio.

    I kept on thinking it was Johnathon Agnew. Sounds just like him.

    Spot on.

    The Tories should be worried, he sounds more like a leader than almost anyone on their side.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 13,797
    “Ex-White House official - so one of Obama’s political appointees then?
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 2,113

    Do even the Tories know what they stand for any more? The "wets" of Thatchers era are still about, thinking about a rising tide lifting all ships. Thatcherites appear to have forgotten who she was and are desperate to bin the single market and trading for more city spivvery, genuine entrepreneurialism for coffee shops and a gig economy. Economic rigour of yes it hurt yes it worked for Osborneomics of yes it's agony no it hasn't achieved the core objectives at all.

    And so a divided identity free Tory party finds itself and the country in crisis. Set aside the existential crisis of Brexit which like their economics has utterly failed the core objectives (settle the internal civil war) and look at the existential coat of living crisis.

    Any economist with eyes a brain and an an understanding of economics can see how the current bubble is getting stretched as far as it can before pop time. A viable economy needs punters to consume, and they can't do that whilst wages go backwards and the cost of everything especially housing goes through the roof. Osborne the genius tried to cover the reality gap with consumer credit, and that's also pretty much at the end place before snapping backwards hard.

    A Tory party who have forgotten human decency, who have forgotten free market entrepreneurialism, who think self-preservation of their dwindling ageing members is bigger than country - what are you for?

    Come on - the Tories can be wrong and misguided, without having forgotten human decency. Good people do not all see the world in the same way.

    The Conservatives need to be very careful when they migrate existing claimants onto Universal Credit.For example Carers with severely disabled children.They need to show human decency and get it right in complex and emotive cases.Even if this means a delay in completely getting everyone onto the new system.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 15,756
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 22,424
    edited September 30
    glw said:

    philiph said:

    New UKIP leader on the radio.

    I kept on thinking it was Johnathon Agnew. Sounds just like him.

    Spot on.

    The Tories should be worried, he sounds more like a leader than almost anyone on their side.
    A resurgent UKIP, even with 5% of the vote, could well be the piece that completes the Corbyn as PM jigsaw. Apart from losing voteshare there is also the risk to the Tories of tacking further right.


  • Come on - the Tories can be wrong and misguided, without having forgotten human decency. Good people do not all see the world in the same way.

    I go on their actions. Let's take the treatment of the disabled as prime example. The policy of persecuting disabled people is directly stripping people of their basic dignity. A system where all the evidence demonstrates that non-medically trained contractors carry out "assessments", Dec
    Are people fit to hit their quota, the disabled person loses not only money but in many cases their car, wheelchair, carer - leaving many unable to leave the house or even be clean - and then the disabled people win their appeals at absurd rates approaching 90%.

    Not only does all of this cost the taxpayer money - as all the withheld monies are returned and the equipment bought again AND the legal fees AND paying the idiots doing the assessments - it seems explicitly designed to treat the disabled as an example to fuel their patron's campaign to demononise everyone of welfare benefits who isn't a pensioner

    So yes. Tories have forgotten human dignity. They choose to ignore these outrages. They don't need to, a change of policy to something humane is all that's needed. I used to blame that evil bastard Duncan Smith. Yet the policy continues and he has gone. Must be his party then.

    If we apply that standard, Labour tolerates a leader who surrounds himself with apologists for Stalinism, Maoism and even North Korea. What is decent about offering decades of support to an organisation that murdered countless innocent people and various regimes that lock up or kill their political opponents?

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 22,424
    Sandpit said:

    “Ex-White House official - so one of Obama’s political appointees then?
    Or one of the dozens appointed by Trump and already fired/quit!
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 15,756
    edited September 30

    glw said:

    philiph said:

    New UKIP leader on the radio.

    I kept on thinking it was Johnathon Agnew. Sounds just like him.

    Spot on.

    The Tories should be worried, he sounds more like a leader than almost anyone on their side.
    A resurgent UKIP, even with 5% of the vote, could well be the piece that completes the Corbyn as PM jigsaw. Apart from losing voteshare there is also the risk of tacking right.
    how do you get that ?

    I thought Mrs May's problem was the kipper vote went more to labour than the conservatives in GE17
  • glwglw Posts: 3,853

    A resurgent UKIP, even with 5% of the vote, could well be the piece that completes the Corbyn as PM jigsaw. Apart from losing voteshare there is also the risk to the Tories of tacking further right.

    I think UKIP could take more votes than that, as well as some from Labour. Despite what Roger says up thread he doesn't sound like a crank at all. Obviously we need to wait and see what he does, but he's the first UKIP leader I've heard that has sounded credible.
  • It's not going to end well. Two implacable nationalisms are colliding and feeding off each other. The Spanish government has managed to turn many Catalans who largely accepted a dual identity into firebrand separatists. That's quite an achievement. Meanwhile, I am in Valencia this weekend and Spanish flags hang from balconies across the city. You didn't see that anywhere in Spain even a year ago - let alone Valencia, which is culturally and linguistically very close to Catalonia.



  • Come on - the Tories can be wrong and misguided, without having forgotten human decency. Good people do not all see the world in the same way.

    I go on their actions. Let's take the treatment of the disabled as prime example. The policy of persecuting disabled people is directly stripping people of their basic dignity. A system where all the evidence demonstrates that non-medically trained contractors carry out "assessments", Dec
    Are people fit to hit their quota, the disabled person loses not only money but in many cases their car, wheelchair, carer - leaving many unable to leave the house or even be clean - and then the disabled people win their appeals at absurd rates approaching 90%.

    Not only does all of this cost the taxpayer money - as all the withheld monies are returned and the equipment bought again AND the legal fees AND paying the idiots doing the assessments - it seems explicitly designed to treat the disabled as an example to fuel their patron's campaign to demononise everyone of welfare benefits who isn't a pensioner

    So yes. Tories have forgotten human dignity. They choose to ignore these outrages. They don't need to, a change of policy to something humane is all that's needed. I used to blame that evil bastard Duncan Smith. Yet the policy continues and he has gone. Must be his party then.

    If we apply that standard, Labour tolerates a leader who surrounds himself with apologists for Stalinism, Maoism and even North Korea. What is decent about offering decades of support to an organisation that murdered countless innocent people and various regimes that lock up or kill their political opponents?

    I'm not Corbynista as you know. But aside from the apples and pears comparison it's an interesting deflection away from the issue - I could throw in Tory support for Pinochet and our current ear in Yemen on the Tories side.

    Irrelevant. When the vast majority of disabled people win their appeals and we pay the cost the policy is patently stupid. It's degrading. It's inhuman. Yet they continue it. Why? Unless they are actually amoral all I could think is that they are blinded by ideology - if we are very firm the person with crippling chronic condtions might suddenly become a functioning person who an employer will pay so we dont have to
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 1,336

    glw said:

    philiph said:

    New UKIP leader on the radio.

    I kept on thinking it was Johnathon Agnew. Sounds just like him.

    Spot on.

    The Tories should be worried, he sounds more like a leader than almost anyone on their side.
    A resurgent UKIP, even with 5% of the vote, could well be the piece that completes the Corbyn as PM jigsaw. Apart from losing voteshare there is also the risk to the Tories of tacking further right.
    Certainly in Wales, a resurgent UKIP will help the Tories.

    Seats like Gower (which reach up into the decayed industrial towns south of Llanelli) and Vale of Clwyd (including the Rhyl hinterland) were Tory wins in 2015 and losses in 2017 because of the rise and fall of UKIP.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,166
    dr_spyn said:
    The point is he wasn't just ANY Tory. He was the one they wheeled out when they wanted someone for a quote on the virtues of hanging or birching. There was a Leicester MP who shared the ghoul watch but I can't remember his name


  • Come on - the Tories can be wrong and misguided, without having forgotten human decency. Good people do not all see the world in the same way.

    I go on their actions. Let's take the treatment of the disabled as prime example. The policy of persecuting disabled people is directly stripping people of their basic dignity. A system where all the evidence demonstrates that non-medically trained contractors carry out "assessments", Dec
    Are people fit to hit their quota, the disabled person loses not only money but in many cases their car, wheelchair, carer - leaving many unable to leave the house or even be clean - and then the disabled people win their appeals at absurd rates approaching 90%.

    Not only does all of this cost the taxpayer money - as all the withheld monies are returned and the equipment bought again AND the legal fees AND paying the idiots doing the assessments - it seems explicitly designed to treat the disabled as an example to fuel their patron's campaign to demononise everyone of welfare benefits who isn't a pensioner

    So yes. Tories have forgotten human dignity. They choose to ignore these outrages. They don't need to, a change of policy to something humane is all that's needed. I used to blame that evil bastard Duncan Smith. Yet the policy continues and he has gone. Must be his party then.

    If we apply that standard, Labour tolerates a leader who surrounds himself with apologists for Stalinism, Maoism and even North Korea. What is decent about offering decades of support to an organisation that murdered countless innocent people and various regimes that lock up or kill their political opponents?

    I'm not Corbynista as you know. But aside from the apples and pears comparison it's an interesting deflection away from the issue - I could throw in Tory support for Pinochet and our current ear in Yemen on the Tories side.

    Irrelevant. When the vast majority of disabled people win their appeals and we pay the cost the policy is patently stupid. It's degrading. It's inhuman. Yet they continue it. Why? Unless they are actually amoral all I could think is that they are blinded by ideology - if we are very firm the person with crippling chronic condtions might suddenly become a functioning person who an employer will pay so we dont have to

    Those who are doing it are very wrong, but they think they are right. That is an extremely common human trait. I don't see it as evidence that Tories as a collective lack decency.

  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,166
    That was the WHEN...the WHY was "BREXIT MEANS BREXIT"
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 1,336
    edited September 30
    Roger said:

    dr_spyn said:
    The point is he wasn't just ANY Tory. He was the one they wheeled out when they wanted someone for a quote on the virtues of hanging or birching. There was a Leicester MP who shared the ghoul watch but I can't remember his name
    Peter Bruinvels.

    A Complete Lunatick. I think he's high up in the Church of England these days,
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 15,756
    edited September 30

    It's not going to end well. Two implacable nationalisms are colliding and feeding off each other. The Spanish government has managed to turn many Catalans who largely accepted a dual identity into firebrand separatists. That's quite an achievement. Meanwhile, I am in Valencia this weekend and Spanish flags hang from balconies across the city. You didn't see that anywhere in Spain even a year ago - let alone Valencia, which is culturally and linguistically very close to Catalonia.

    even if the catalans vote fior independence it's hard to see what theyt can do about it

    they have no legal basis for the vote, no international support and no means of enforcing it
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 22,424

    glw said:

    philiph said:

    New UKIP leader on the radio.

    I kept on thinking it was Johnathon Agnew. Sounds just like him.

    Spot on.

    The Tories should be worried, he sounds more like a leader than almost anyone on their side.
    A resurgent UKIP, even with 5% of the vote, could well be the piece that completes the Corbyn as PM jigsaw. Apart from losing voteshare there is also the risk of tacking right.
    how do you get that ?

    I thought Mrs May's problem was the kipper vote went more to labour than the conservatives in GE17
    No. Most kippers went Tory, but Labour got about a third. The Tories expected (certainly on here) to get nearly all.

    If UKIP goes all BNP, that might take WWC votes off Labour, but be less appealing to middle class folk. They seem to have rejected that option.
  • Roger said:

    dr_spyn said:
    The point is he wasn't just ANY Tory. He was the one they wheeled out when they wanted someone for a quote on the virtues of hanging or birching. There was a Leicester MP who shared the ghoul watch but I can't remember his name

    Bruinevels.

    I was at the same school as Alex Gardiner. He was in the year below me. We both entered it when it was a grammar. It turned comprehensive a few years later. It was not tough in any way at all. Ask Toby Young, he was there, too.

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 17,017
    The world, it is said, has enough for everyone's needs but not enough for everyone's wants. The same it seems is true of Britain's politics. Britain needs a competent administrator who can identify the nation's short term strategic challenges and steer a course through them. But it wants an exciting dynamic vision of the future.
  • glw said:

    philiph said:

    New UKIP leader on the radio.

    I kept on thinking it was Johnathon Agnew. Sounds just like him.

    Spot on.

    The Tories should be worried, he sounds more like a leader than almost anyone on their side.
    A resurgent UKIP, even with 5% of the vote, could well be the piece that completes the Corbyn as PM jigsaw. Apart from losing voteshare there is also the risk to the Tories of tacking further right.
    A modest Lib Dem Revival would have the same effect. No reason we can't have both at the same time.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 1,815
    edited September 30
    Boris: what an idiot.

    "He says: "The crucial thing I want to get over to Sun readers about Brexit is that it is going to be great and we need to believe in ourselves and believe we can do it. It is unstoppable."

    Mr Johnson also touches on other subjects in the interview - calling for a faster increase in the minimum wage and for public sector pay rises

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41441444
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,035

    It's not going to end well. Two implacable nationalisms are colliding and feeding off each other. The Spanish government has managed to turn many Catalans who largely accepted a dual identity into firebrand separatists. That's quite an achievement. Meanwhile, I am in Valencia this weekend and Spanish flags hang from balconies across the city. You didn't see that anywhere in Spain even a year ago - let alone Valencia, which is culturally and linguistically very close to Catalonia.

    Good luck to Catalonia , hopefully they can beat their oppressors.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 7,170

    It's not going to end well. Two implacable nationalisms are colliding and feeding off each other. The Spanish government has managed to turn many Catalans who largely accepted a dual identity into firebrand separatists. That's quite an achievement. Meanwhile, I am in Valencia this weekend and Spanish flags hang from balconies across the city. You didn't see that anywhere in Spain even a year ago - let alone Valencia, which is culturally and linguistically very close to Catalonia.

    even if the catalans vote fior independence it's hard to see what theyt can do about it

    they have no legal basis for the vote, no international support and no means of enforcing it
    If over 50% of the eligible electorate back independence, however, the Spanish government are in a bind entirely of their own making. Do they suspend regional autonomy and use the army to impose order by force (the British solution in Ireland)? Do they offer concessions - although it will be too late? Or will they have to back down and accept the result, which would encourage separatists elsewhere?

    (The one thing I am 100% sure of is that is there were an ECJ ruling on any point it would be ignored. Why people think that this court is of any significance at all given it has no actual powers of enforcement I am not sure. If Davis were smart he would say that he would accept ECJ jurisdiction after the manner the French do.)
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 17,017

    glw said:

    philiph said:

    New UKIP leader on the radio.

    I kept on thinking it was Johnathon Agnew. Sounds just like him.

    Spot on.

    The Tories should be worried, he sounds more like a leader than almost anyone on their side.
    A resurgent UKIP, even with 5% of the vote, could well be the piece that completes the Corbyn as PM jigsaw. Apart from losing voteshare there is also the risk of tacking right.
    how do you get that ?

    I thought Mrs May's problem was the kipper vote went more to labour than the conservatives in GE17
    No. Most kippers went Tory, but Labour got about a third. The Tories expected (certainly on here) to get nearly all.

    If UKIP goes all BNP, that might take WWC votes off Labour, but be less appealing to middle class folk. They seem to have rejected that option.
    One way or another I expect UKIP to head in an anti-Islam direction, the only question being the degree of crassness. Right now it's the only way they can keep some form of USP.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 15,756

    The world, it is said, has enough for everyone's needs but not enough for everyone's wants. The same it seems is true of Britain's politics. Britain needs a competent administrator who can identify the nation's short term strategic challenges and steer a course through them. But it wants an exciting dynamic vision of the future.

    are you putting yourself forward ?
  • It's not going to end well. Two implacable nationalisms are colliding and feeding off each other. The Spanish government has managed to turn many Catalans who largely accepted a dual identity into firebrand separatists. That's quite an achievement. Meanwhile, I am in Valencia this weekend and Spanish flags hang from balconies across the city. You didn't see that anywhere in Spain even a year ago - let alone Valencia, which is culturally and linguistically very close to Catalonia.

    even if the catalans vote fior independence it's hard to see what theyt can do about it

    they have no legal basis for the vote, no international support and no means of enforcing it

    The ones who bother to participate will overwhelmingly vote for independence. It will be declared. And nothing much will happen, until the Spanish government invokes constitutional powers to run things from Madrid. Then it will really kick off. Either Catalonia gets what the Basques have or, in the end, Catalonia becomrs independent. But it's going to take a while. In the meantime, Spain will not be a happy place. This is a bigger story than Brexit outside the UK.

  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,253
    Roger said:

    That was the WHEN...the WHY was "BREXIT MEANS BREXIT"
    recycled,. He's said that before.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 15,756

    It's not going to end well. Two implacable nationalisms are colliding and feeding off each other. The Spanish government has managed to turn many Catalans who largely accepted a dual identity into firebrand separatists. That's quite an achievement. Meanwhile, I am in Valencia this weekend and Spanish flags hang from balconies across the city. You didn't see that anywhere in Spain even a year ago - let alone Valencia, which is culturally and linguistically very close to Catalonia.

    even if the catalans vote fior independence it's hard to see what theyt can do about it

    they have no legal basis for the vote, no international support and no means of enforcing it

    The ones who bother to participate will overwhelmingly vote for independence. It will be declared. And nothing much will happen, until the Spanish government invokes constitutional powers to run things from Madrid. Then it will really kick off. Either Catalonia gets what the Basques have or, in the end, Catalonia becomrs independent. But it's going to take a while. In the meantime, Spain will not be a happy place. This is a bigger story than Brexit outside the UK.

    yes

    our little englander brexit threads just mean we ignore whats happening in the wider world

    this week

    Germany is struggling to form a government and Merkel is in trouble
    Macron's euro vision gets pasted by other members
    Kurdistan votes for independence
    Catalonia goes to the brink
    North Korea says its a war with USA

    PB's response is to freak out about Boris - again
  • It's not going to end well. Two implacable nationalisms are colliding and feeding off each other. The Spanish government has managed to turn many Catalans who largely accepted a dual identity into firebrand separatists. That's quite an achievement. Meanwhile, I am in Valencia this weekend and Spanish flags hang from balconies across the city. You didn't see that anywhere in Spain even a year ago - let alone Valencia, which is culturally and linguistically very close to Catalonia.

    even if the catalans vote fior independence it's hard to see what theyt can do about it

    they have no legal basis for the vote, no international support and no means of enforcing it

    The ones who bother to participate will overwhelmingly vote for independence. It will be declared. And nothing much will happen, until the Spanish government invokes constitutional powers to run things from Madrid. Then it will really kick off. Either Catalonia gets what the Basques have or, in the end, Catalonia becomrs independent. But it's going to take a while. In the meantime, Spain will not be a happy place. This is a bigger story than Brexit outside the UK.

    yes

    our little englander brexit threads just mean we ignore whats happening in the wider world

    this week

    Germany is struggling to form a government and Merkel is in trouble
    Macron's euro vision gets pasted by other members
    Kurdistan votes for independence
    Catalonia goes to the brink
    North Korea says its a war with USA

    PB's response is to freak out about Boris - again

    PB is a UK site that deals mainly in British politics.

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 15,756

    It's not going to end well. Two implacable nationalisms are colliding and feeding off each other. The Spanish government has managed to turn many Catalans who largely accepted a dual identity into firebrand separatists. That's quite an achievement. Meanwhile, I am in Valencia this weekend and Spanish flags hang from balconies across the city. You didn't see that anywhere in Spain even a year ago - let alone Valencia, which is culturally and linguistically very close to Catalonia.

    even if the catalans vote fior independence it's hard to see what theyt can do about it

    they have no legal basis for the vote, no international support and no means of enforcing it

    The ones who bother to participate will overwhelmingly vote for independence. It will be declared. And nothing much will happen, until the Spanish government invokes constitutional powers to run things from Madrid. Then it will really kick off. Either Catalonia gets what the Basques have or, in the end, Catalonia becomrs independent. But it's going to take a while. In the meantime, Spain will not be a happy place. This is a bigger story than Brexit outside the UK.

    yes

    our little englander brexit threads just mean we ignore whats happening in the wider world

    this week

    Germany is struggling to form a government and Merkel is in trouble
    Macron's euro vision gets pasted by other members
    Kurdistan votes for independence
    Catalonia goes to the brink
    North Korea says its a war with USA

    PB's response is to freak out about Boris - again

    PB is a UK site that deals mainly in British politics.


    ah yes, all those POTUS and Trump threads supoort your argument

    do events in the Germany France and Spain have no influence of us ?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 17,017

    The world, it is said, has enough for everyone's needs but not enough for everyone's wants. The same it seems is true of Britain's politics. Britain needs a competent administrator who can identify the nation's short term strategic challenges and steer a course through them. But it wants an exciting dynamic vision of the future.

    are you putting yourself forward ?
    I'm sure I would command universal support and adoration. But Britain isn't ready for a Meeks administration.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 17,017

    It's not going to end well. Two implacable nationalisms are colliding and feeding off each other. The Spanish government has managed to turn many Catalans who largely accepted a dual identity into firebrand separatists. That's quite an achievement. Meanwhile, I am in Valencia this weekend and Spanish flags hang from balconies across the city. You didn't see that anywhere in Spain even a year ago - let alone Valencia, which is culturally and linguistically very close to Catalonia.

    even if the catalans vote fior independence it's hard to see what theyt can do about it

    they have no legal basis for the vote, no international support and no means of enforcing it

    The ones who bother to participate will overwhelmingly vote for independence. It will be declared. And nothing much will happen, until the Spanish government invokes constitutional powers to run things from Madrid. Then it will really kick off. Either Catalonia gets what the Basques have or, in the end, Catalonia becomrs independent. But it's going to take a while. In the meantime, Spain will not be a happy place. This is a bigger story than Brexit outside the UK.

    yes

    our little englander brexit threads just mean we ignore whats happening in the wider world

    this week

    Germany is struggling to form a government and Merkel is in trouble
    Macron's euro vision gets pasted by other members
    Kurdistan votes for independence
    Catalonia goes to the brink
    North Korea says its a war with USA

    PB's response is to freak out about Boris - again

    PB is a UK site that deals mainly in British politics.


    ah yes, all those POTUS and Trump threads supoort your argument

    do events in the Germany France and Spain have no influence of us ?
    My one thread this week has been on the aftermath of the German election as it affects Britain.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 610
    malcolmg said:

    It's not going to end well. Two implacable nationalisms are colliding and feeding off each other. The Spanish government has managed to turn many Catalans who largely accepted a dual identity into firebrand separatists. That's quite an achievement. Meanwhile, I am in Valencia this weekend and Spanish flags hang from balconies across the city. You didn't see that anywhere in Spain even a year ago - let alone Valencia, which is culturally and linguistically very close to Catalonia.

    Good luck to Catalonia , hopefully they can beat their oppressors.
    I suppose it depend on what part of Valencia you are in, where I live, three miles inside the Alicante provence which is part of Valencia it's very different. They have no affinity or interest in Valencinan resent the children being forced to learn it and quite significantly support Real Madrid and passionatley hate Barcelona. The Spanish I know think the Catalans are bonkers
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 15,756

    The world, it is said, has enough for everyone's needs but not enough for everyone's wants. The same it seems is true of Britain's politics. Britain needs a competent administrator who can identify the nation's short term strategic challenges and steer a course through them. But it wants an exciting dynamic vision of the future.

    are you putting yourself forward ?
    I'm sure I would command universal support and adoration. But Britain isn't ready for a Meeks administration.
    We are not worthy :-)
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 14,698

    our little englander brexit threads just mean we ignore whats happening in the wider world

    this week

    Germany is struggling to form a government and Merkel is in trouble
    Macron's euro vision gets pasted by other members
    Kurdistan votes for independence
    Catalonia goes to the brink
    North Korea says its a war with USA

    PB's response is to freak out about Boris - again

    Boris our Foreign Secretary? What's his position on all of those issues?
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 610
    nichomar said:

    malcolmg said:

    It's not going to end well. Two implacable nationalisms are colliding and feeding off each other. The Spanish government has managed to turn many Catalans who largely accepted a dual identity into firebrand separatists. That's quite an achievement. Meanwhile, I am in Valencia this weekend and Spanish flags hang from balconies across the city. You didn't see that anywhere in Spain even a year ago - let alone Valencia, which is culturally and linguistically very close to Catalonia.

    Good luck to Catalonia , hopefully they can beat their oppressors.
    I suppose it depend on what part of Valencia you are in, where I live, three miles inside the Alicante provence which is part of Valencia it's very different. They have no affinity or interest in Valencinan resent the children being forced to learn it and quite significantly support Real Madrid and passionatley hate Barcelona. The Spanish I know think the Catalans are bonkers
    And yes as its Fiesta time in a lot of Spain there are Spanish flags all over the place
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 26,149
    edited September 30
    2 years and millions of pounds and the best they have is they might have interviewed him were he alive? I hope they learned some lessons about other people, institutional and procedural issues.

    I note the wrote up says the threshold for reason to suspect is low. It also demonstrate the officers were using the discredited and logically absurd method of referring g to complainant as victims and treating things as true unless something contradicted it, which the excellent report from Sir Richard Henriques tore apart.
    Doesn't make any sense. No other nations have global influence other than superpowers?

    It's bullshit.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 4,095

    The world, it is said, has enough for everyone's needs but not enough for everyone's wants. The same it seems is true of Britain's politics. Britain needs a competent administrator who can identify the nation's short term strategic challenges and steer a course through them. But it wants an exciting dynamic vision of the future.

    are you putting yourself forward ?
    I'm sure I would command universal support and adoration. But Britain isn't ready for a Meeks administration.
    We are not worthy :-)
    You couldn't afford the pay cut either
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 13,797
    edited September 30
    F1: New engine for Vettel. That’s his last one for the season.
  • JonathanD said:

    Boris: what an idiot.

    "He says: "The crucial thing I want to get over to Sun readers about Brexit is that it is going to be great and we need to believe in ourselves and believe we can do it. It is unstoppable."

    Mr Johnson also touches on other subjects in the interview - calling for a faster increase in the minimum wage and for public sector pay rises

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41441444

    You mean: Boris what an idiot, but a towering statesman compared with a Prime Minister who laments the lack of debates she did not turn up for, and being unprepared for an election she called.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-general-election-lacked-debates-conservatives-jeremy-corbyn-a7974921.html
  • nichomar said:

    malcolmg said:

    It's not going to end well. Two implacable nationalisms are colliding and feeding off each other. The Spanish government has managed to turn many Catalans who largely accepted a dual identity into firebrand separatists. That's quite an achievement. Meanwhile, I am in Valencia this weekend and Spanish flags hang from balconies across the city. You didn't see that anywhere in Spain even a year ago - let alone Valencia, which is culturally and linguistically very close to Catalonia.

    Good luck to Catalonia , hopefully they can beat their oppressors.
    I suppose it depend on what part of Valencia you are in, where I live, three miles inside the Alicante provence which is part of Valencia it's very different. They have no affinity or interest in Valencinan resent the children being forced to learn it and quite significantly support Real Madrid and passionatley hate Barcelona. The Spanish I know think the Catalans are bonkers

    I've heard a lot of Valencian being spoken in Alicante itself, or should I say Alacant, when I've been there. Haven't heard very much in Valencia yet. One thing that does standout here is how few tourists there are. The least I've seen in any big Spanish city.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 26,149
    edited September 30
    2 years and millions of pounds and the best they have is they might have interviewed him were he alive? I hope they learned some lessons about other people, institutional and procedural issues to justify this.

    I note the write up says the threshold for reason to suspect is low. It also demonstrates the officers were using the now discredited and logically absurd method of referring to complainants as victims and treating things as true unless something contradicted it, which the excellent report from Sir Richard Henriques tore apart as a reversal of the detective process and burden of proof.

    If the man did terrible things that is horrible, but if reason to suspect is all they have given the gumption of the police claims and when they apparently have been acting as very poor detectives given they used procedures which were so comprehensively slammed, which show they were determined to find proof to fit a specific outcome rather than merely investigate then it is pretty weak sauce.

  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 1,815

    JonathanD said:

    Boris: what an idiot.

    "He says: "The crucial thing I want to get over to Sun readers about Brexit is that it is going to be great and we need to believe in ourselves and believe we can do it. It is unstoppable."

    Mr Johnson also touches on other subjects in the interview - calling for a faster increase in the minimum wage and for public sector pay rises

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41441444

    You mean: Boris what an idiot, but a towering statesman compared with a Prime Minister who laments the lack of debates she did not turn up for, and being unprepared for an election she called.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-general-election-lacked-debates-conservatives-jeremy-corbyn-a7974921.html
    May is incompetent and out of her depth, Boris is maliciously harmful.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 4,095
    The slightly blurred picture used above is from the party website for the conference - and I think it helps illustrate David's vision point

    https://conservativepartyconference.com/index
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 610

    nichomar said:

    malcolmg said:

    It's not going to end well. Two implacable nationalisms are colliding and feeding off each other. The Spanish government has managed to turn many Catalans who largely accepted a dual identity into firebrand separatists. That's quite an achievement. Meanwhile, I am in Valencia this weekend and Spanish flags hang from balconies across the city. You didn't see that anywhere in Spain even a year ago - let alone Valencia, which is culturally and linguistically very close to Catalonia.

    Good luck to Catalonia , hopefully they can beat their oppressors.
    I suppose it depend on what part of Valencia you are in, where I live, three miles inside the Alicante provence which is part of Valencia it's very different. They have no affinity or interest in Valencinan resent the children being forced to learn it and quite significantly support Real Madrid and passionatley hate Barcelona. The Spanish I know think the Catalans are bonkers

    I've heard a lot of Valencian being spoken in Alicante itself, or should I say Alacant, when I've been there. Haven't heard very much in Valencia yet. One thing that does standout here is how few tourists there are. The least I've seen in any big Spanish city.

    It's a beautiful city and lots of people go for short breaks from other parts of Spain. It hasn't got the pull of Barcelona and for different reasons that of Benidorm?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 22,424
    kle4 said:

    2 years and millions of pounds and the best they have is they might have interviewed him were he alive? I hope they learned some lessons about other people, institutional and procedural issues.

    I note the wrote up says the threshold for reason to suspect is low. It also demonstrate the officers were using the discredited and logically absurd method of referring g to complainant as victims and treating things as true unless something contradicted it, which the excellent report from Sir Richard Henriques tore apart.
    Doesn't make any sense. No other nations have global influence other than superpowers?

    It's bullshit.
    Decades old investigations into Heath seem to have the same lack of evidence base as the satanic ritual abuse investigations of the nineties.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 26,149

    It's not going to end well. Two implacable nationalisms are colliding and feeding off each other. The Spanish government has managed to turn many Catalans who largely accepted a dual identity into firebrand separatists. That's quite an achievement. Meanwhile, I am in Valencia this weekend and Spanish flags hang from balconies across the city. You didn't see that anywhere in Spain even a year ago - let alone Valencia, which is culturally and linguistically very close to Catalonia.

    even if the catalans vote fior independence it's hard to see what theyt can do about it

    they have no legal basis for the vote, no international support and no means of enforcing it

    The ones who bother to participate will overwhelmingly vote for independence. It will be declared. And nothing much will happen, until the Spanish government invokes constitutional powers to run things from Madrid. Then it will really kick off. Either Catalonia gets what the Basques have or, in the end, Catalonia becomrs independent. But it's going to take a while. In the meantime, Spain will not be a happy place. This is a bigger story than Brexit outside the UK.

    It's pretty incredible. I still find it hard to believe they will declare if turnout is low, but maybe they will justify it on turnout couldn't be higher due to Spanish interference. Given trying to hold the item has seen figures arrested presumably any local mps who participate in a declaration will be arrested and as you say there will be direct rule, since it's not as though the entire place is so in favour a declaration woukd or even could lead to immediate changes. Madrid has bigger problems than most right now. At leadt they don't have any elections coming up!
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 15,756

    our little englander brexit threads just mean we ignore whats happening in the wider world

    this week

    Germany is struggling to form a government and Merkel is in trouble
    Macron's euro vision gets pasted by other members
    Kurdistan votes for independence
    Catalonia goes to the brink
    North Korea says its a war with USA

    PB's response is to freak out about Boris - again

    Boris our Foreign Secretary? What's his position on all of those issues?
    dunno why not ask him ?

    boris.johnson.mp@parliament.uk
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 610
    kle4 said:

    It's not going to end well. Two implacable nationalisms are colliding and feeding off each other. The Spanish government has managed to turn many Catalans who largely accepted a dual identity into firebrand separatists. That's quite an achievement. Meanwhile, I am in Valencia this weekend and Spanish flags hang from balconies across the city. You didn't see that anywhere in Spain even a year ago - let alone Valencia, which is culturally and linguistically very close to Catalonia.

    even if the catalans vote fior independence it's hard to see what theyt can do about it

    they have no legal basis for the vote, no international support and no means of enforcing it

    The ones who bother to participate will overwhelmingly vote for independence. It will be declared. And nothing much will happen, until the Spanish government invokes constitutional powers to run things from Madrid. Then it will really kick off. Either Catalonia gets what the Basques have or, in the end, Catalonia becomrs independent. But it's going to take a while. In the meantime, Spain will not be a happy place. This is a bigger story than Brexit outside the UK.

    It's pretty incredible. I still find it hard to believe they will declare if turnout is low, but maybe they will justify it on turnout couldn't be higher due to Spanish interference. Given trying to hold the item has seen figures arrested presumably any local mps who participate in a declaration will be arrested and as you say there will be direct rule, since it's not as though the entire place is so in favour a declaration woukd or even could lead to immediate changes. Madrid has bigger problems than most right now. At leadt they don't have any elections coming up!
    Remember it's a minority government that could fall at anytime I can only think that Rajoy has the tacit agreement of the other parties in support of his actions but I don't know.
  • nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    malcolmg said:

    It's not going to end well. Two implacable nationalisms are colliding and feeding off each other. The Spanish government has managed to turn many Catalans who largely accepted a dual identity into firebrand separatists. That's quite an achievement. Meanwhile, I am in Valencia this weekend and Spanish flags hang from balconies across the city. You didn't see that anywhere in Spain even a year ago - let alone Valencia, which is culturally and linguistically very close to Catalonia.

    Good luck to Catalonia , hopefully they can beat their oppressors.
    I suppose it depend on what part of Valencia you are in, where I live, three miles inside the Alicante provence which is part of Valencia it's very different. They have no affinity or interest in Valencinan resent the children being forced to learn it and quite significantly support Real Madrid and passionatley hate Barcelona. The Spanish I know think the Catalans are bonkers

    I've heard a lot of Valencian being spoken in Alicante itself, or should I say Alacant, when I've been there. Haven't heard very much in Valencia yet. One thing that does standout here is how few tourists there are. The least I've seen in any big Spanish city.

    It's a beautiful city and lots of people go for short breaks from other parts of Spain. It hasn't got the pull of Barcelona and for different reasons that of Benidorm?

    Makes sense. There's a strange dislocation, though, between all the street names being written in Valencian and everyone speaking Spanish! Presumably Castellon is the real Valencian home. Paella on the beach tomorrow, looking forward to it big time.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 26,149

    kle4 said:

    2 years and millions of pounds and the best they have is they might have interviewed him were he alive? I hope they learned some lessons about other people, institutional and procedural issues.

    I note the wrote up says the threshold for reason to suspect is low. It also demonstrate the officers were using the discredited and logically absurd method of referring g to complainant as victims and treating things as true unless something contradicted it, which the excellent report from Sir Richard Henriques tore apart.
    Doesn't make any sense. No other nations have global influence other than superpowers?

    It's bullshit.
    Decades old investigations into Heath seem to have the same lack of evidence base as the satanic ritual abuse investigations of the nineties.
    The grounds to suspect thing seems like a face saving justification, and not one I find credible. When the government agreed a few weeks ago to take in the brunt of the costs rather than wiltshire police I assumed it would be because enough had been found that the government did not want the local force moaning that they used up a massive chunk of budget to discover such a serious crime, and they'd say some thing like ' as we cannot talk to him we wouldn't have recommended prosecution, but we have very strong evidence'. But no, it's that they think he'd be worth talking to based on a reversion of burden if proof wherein he hasn't proven himself innocent as he is dead.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 26,149
    Did she not run that line by a spin doctor? It's laughable.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 610

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    malcolmg said:

    It's not going to end well. Two implacable nationalisms are colliding and feeding off each other. The Spanish government has managed to turn many Catalans who largely accepted a dual identity into firebrand separatists. That's quite an achievement. Meanwhile, I am in Valencia this weekend and Spanish flags hang from balconies across the city. You didn't see that anywhere in Spain even a year ago - let alone Valencia, which is culturally and linguistically very close to Catalonia.

    Good luck to Catalonia , hopefully they can beat their oppressors.
    I suppose it depend on what part of Valencia you are in, where I live, three miles inside the Alicante provence which is part of Valencia it's very different. They have no affinity or interest in Valencinan resent the children being forced to learn it and quite significantly support Real Madrid and passionatley hate Barcelona. The Spanish I know think the Catalans are bonkers

    I've heard a lot of Valencian being spoken in Alicante itself, or should I say Alacant, when I've been there. Haven't heard very much in Valencia yet. One thing that does standout here is how few tourists there are. The least I've seen in any big Spanish city.

    It's a beautiful city and lots of people go for short breaks from other parts of Spain. It hasn't got the pull of Barcelona and for different reasons that of Benidorm?

    Makes sense. There's a strange dislocation, though, between all the street names being written in Valencian and everyone speaking Spanish! Presumably Castellon is the real Valencian home. Paella on the beach tomorrow, looking forward to it big time.

    Have fun we go down the beach 2/3 times awweek for coffee and a snack, but not in July or August!
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 8,650
    Boris reciting poetry is biggest issue for UK Ambassador in Burma...

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/30/boris-johnson-caught-on-camera-reciting-kipling-in-myanmar-temple?CMP=share_btn_tw

    Really, big story from Guardian and Channel 4, more than those expulsions?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 26,149
    edited September 30
    Man, separatism really is flavour of the century.

    Cameroon bans pro independence rallies.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-41442330
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 26,149
    dr_spyn said:

    Boris reciting poetry is biggest issue for UK Ambassador in Burma...

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/30/boris-johnson-caught-on-camera-reciting-kipling-in-myanmar-temple?CMP=share_btn_tw

    Really, big story from Guardian and Channel 4, more than those expulsions?

    At Least It's Bigger Than 'he Mentioned alcohol inside a Sikh temple'.
  • nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    malcolmg said:

    It's not going to end well. Two implacable nationalisms are colliding and feeding off each other. The Spanish government has managed to turn many Catalans who largely accepted a dual identity into firebrand separatists. That's quite an achievement. Meanwhile, I am in Valencia this weekend and Spanish flags hang from balconies across the city. You didn't see that anywhere in Spain even a year ago - let alone Valencia, which is culturally and linguistically very close to Catalonia.

    Good luck to Catalonia , hopefully they can beat their oppressors.
    I suppose it depend on what part of Valencia you are in, where I live, three miles inside the Alicante provence which is part of Valencia it's very different. They have no affinity or interest in Valencinan resent the children being forced to learn it and quite significantly support Real Madrid and passionatley hate Barcelona. The Spanish I know think the Catalans are bonkers

    I've heard a lot of Valencian being spoken in Alicante itself, or should I say Alacant, when I've been there. Haven't heard very much in Valencia yet. One thing that does standout here is how few tourists there are. The least I've seen in any big Spanish city.

    It's a beautiful city and lots of people go for short breaks from other parts of Spain. It hasn't got the pull of Barcelona and for different reasons that of Benidorm?

    Makes sense. There's a strange dislocation, though, between all the street names being written in Valencian and everyone speaking Spanish! Presumably Castellon is the real Valencian home. Paella on the beach tomorrow, looking forward to it big time.

    Have fun we go down the beach 2/3 times awweek for coffee and a snack, but not in July or August!

    Very wise. Every time I come back to Spain I wonder why I ever left. Time to explore...

  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 10,044
    If you want "vision" then Theresa's not your woman...

    I don't think Theresa May has had a vision in her life.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 26,149
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    2 years and millions of pounds and the best they have is they might have interviewed him were he alive? I hope they learned some lessons about other people, institutional and procedural issues.

    I note the wrote up says the threshold for reason to suspect is low. It also demonstrate the officers were using the discredited and logically absurd method of referring g to complainant as victims and treating things as true unless something contradicted it, which the excellent report from Sir Richard Henriques tore apart.
    Doesn't make any sense. No other nations have global influence other than superpowers?

    It's bullshit.
    Decades old investigations into Heath seem to have the same lack of evidence base as the satanic ritual abuse investigations of the nineties.
    The grounds to suspect thing seems like a face saving justification, and not one I find credible. When the government agreed a few weeks ago to take in the brunt of the costs rather than wiltshire police I assumed it would be because enough had been found that the government did not want the local force moaning that they used up a massive chunk of budget to discover such a serious crime, and they'd say some thing like ' as we cannot talk to him we wouldn't have recommended prosecution, but we have very strong evidence'. But no, it's that they think he'd be worth talking to based on a reversion of burden if proof wherein he hasn't proven himself innocent as he is dead.
    Thing is now he will go down in history as an abuser because of the police procedure to believe rather than merely investigate. I know a former police officer who has outright stated if they charge someone they are guilty as the police don't charge innocent people, and grounds to suspect is even lower than that but fits in the same thought process of 'if they suspect he must have done it'
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 21,487
    kle4 said:

    2 years and millions of pounds and the best they have is they might have interviewed him were he alive? I hope they learned some lessons about other people, institutional and procedural issues.

    I note the wrote up says the threshold for reason to suspect is low. It also demonstrate the officers were using the discredited and logically absurd method of referring g to complainant as victims and treating things as true unless something contradicted it, which the excellent report from Sir Richard Henriques tore apart.

    h

    Doesn't make any sense. No other nations have global influence other than superpowers?

    It's bullshit.
    I think mainstream US officials and politicians are disappointed, because having the UK in the EU pulled the whole thing closer to their position.
  • dr_spyn said:

    Boris reciting poetry is biggest issue for UK Ambassador in Burma...

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/30/boris-johnson-caught-on-camera-reciting-kipling-in-myanmar-temple?CMP=share_btn_tw

    Really, big story from Guardian and Channel 4, more than those expulsions?

    It's not as if pb went into meltdown over whether Obama should have said "back of the queue" or "line".
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 21,487
    The Conservatives stand for social stability, moderation, credible economics, patriotism, the Union, valuing our shared inheritance, believing in gradual reform rather than radical change, and that strong societies are built from the bottom-up not the top-down.

    It is more of an attitude than a philosophy, but it's one rooted in reality that is shared by millions of people.

    Almost by definition, to be successful, it has to both gain and stay in power as much as possible.
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