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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Tomorrow night’s C4 Boris documentary looks set to add to Tory

SystemSystem Posts: 3,967
edited September 30 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Tomorrow night’s C4 Boris documentary looks set to add to Tory tensions over Theresa

Tomorrow night at 10 PM a documentary on Boris Johnson by Gary Gibbon is due to be screened on Channel 4 and judging by some of the extracts so far released it looks set to unsettle CON delegates in Manchester.

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 1,801
    If Johnson succeeds in deposing May I can't see how he can command the loyalty of enough Tory remainers. A GE would be inevitable.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 4,095

    If Johnson succeeds in deposing May I can't see how he can command the loyalty of enough Tory remainers. A GE would be inevitable.

    How is that general election going to come about? I cannot see the Tories voting for one
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 33,646
    Problem is if Boris takes over before March 2019 he is effectively in charge of the Brexit negotiations and there is next to zero chance the EU will do a deal with him.

    He knows that which is why he will wait until 2019 and 2020 to challenge when a deal has been done and he has cemented himself as the only contender to ensure 'Brexit means Brexit' once any transition period is over
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 1,801
    p.s. I agree with Tyson on the previous thread. He is the most loathsome, self-interested, unpatriotic shit ever to get within striking distance of the leadership of a major political party - and there's been some tough competition for that accolade. Again, it's why he would not last long as PM - there are a lot of people within his own party who share that assessment.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 1,801

    If Johnson succeeds in deposing May I can't see how he can command the loyalty of enough Tory remainers. A GE would be inevitable.

    How is that general election going to come about? I cannot see the Tories voting for one
    His version of Brexit is not one that could command a consensus. Only requires a few Tory remain MPs with safe seats to rebel ...
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 1,801
    Good news for the NHS, though. Another £350 million a week coming their way.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 26,149

    If Johnson succeeds in deposing May I can't see how he can command the loyalty of enough Tory remainers. A GE would be inevitable.

    That would mean Corbyn becomes PM - why would Boris even go for the job that being the case? I know he does well in leader polling for the Tories, but as seen on here plenty of Tories dislike him, he surely knows that.

    As HYUFD suggests if he takes over too soon he is responsible for any Brexit issues - sure many, particularly those not in the party, will blame him for the Leave vote anyway, but if things go south he takes a big hit. Wait a bit, daring May to sack him, and he may calculate he will take less.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 1,801
    kle4 said:

    If Johnson succeeds in deposing May I can't see how he can command the loyalty of enough Tory remainers. A GE would be inevitable.

    That would mean Corbyn becomes PM - why would Boris even go for the job that being the case? I know he does well in leader polling for the Tories, but as seen on here plenty of Tories dislike him, he surely knows that.

    As HYUFD suggests if he takes over too soon he is responsible for any Brexit issues - sure many, particularly those not in the party, will blame him for the Leave vote anyway, but if things go south he takes a big hit. Wait a bit, daring May to sack him, and he may calculate he will take less.
    Sure, but the premise of this thread seems to be a possible takeover weeks after the party conference.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 16,570
    FPT
    What is my vision for the Conservative Party? Well, who cares, but anyway....

    I want a party that wants us united as a country focussed on creating wealth but also focussed on sharing that wealth and caring for the less fortunate, including those abroad through the aid budget.
    I want a party that is focussed on aspiration and equality of opportunity, that recognises that our current social structure does not give anything like equality of opportunity and seeks to address that with specific policies.
    I want a party with a strong respect for the rule of law (yes, that includes you Home Secretary) but recognises that law is often not the answer and that the State should be careful about the unintended consequences of regulation.
    I want as many people as possible to be a part of a property owning democracy with the security of owning their own homes, security in employment, the opportunities to train and to better themselves. This needs policies encouraging home ownership, in work training, private pensions, the living wage, better job security and encouragement to save.
    I want a government that seeks to live within its means and not burden the next generation with excessive debt, that seeks value for the money it spends, that recognises the adverse economic effect of excessive taxation but also the importance of having all who gain from our society paying their share.

    With Cameron and Osborne a lot, if not all, of those boxes were ticked. The 2017 manifesto ticked fewer and I really don't know what the current state of play is. It is the job of this Conference to tell us, loud and clear. To be honest, I am not holding my breath.
  • @HYUFD You either completely misunderstand what Universal Credit is, what it does and who it's paid to or are just trolling.
  • 'Twas because of Boris that voted Tory for the first time ever in 2008 (London Mayor).
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 4,296
    Dura_Ace said:

    .The two Aircraft Carriers look nice but are ruinously expensive.

    And are completely pointless as a carrier is militarily useless without a battle group. As of right now, the RN has 6 surface combatant vessels available for operations.

    You will never find a more passionate advocate of naval aviation than me (2 tours on Sea Harrier, 1 on F-14, 1 on Lynx) but the QE class is bleeding every other part of the service white.
    F-14? What, the F-14?. Woo! You've posted before about your presence on US aircraft carriers. Any interesting anecdotes to dish?
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 8,650
    edited September 30
    beaten to it by @williamglenn
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 38,384
    Mr. kle4, Boris' ambition eclipses every other part of his personality. He's an oaf.
  • viewcode said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    .The two Aircraft Carriers look nice but are ruinously expensive.

    And are completely pointless as a carrier is militarily useless without a battle group. As of right now, the RN has 6 surface combatant vessels available for operations.

    You will never find a more passionate advocate of naval aviation than me (2 tours on Sea Harrier, 1 on F-14, 1 on Lynx) but the QE class is bleeding every other part of the service white.
    F-14? What, the F-14?. Woo! You've posted before about your presence on US aircraft carriers. Any interesting anecdotes to dish?
    The RN used F-4 Phantom, IIRC. But not F-14
  • DavidL said:

    FPT
    What is my vision for the Conservative Party? Well, who cares, but anyway....

    I want a party that wants us united as a country focussed on creating wealth but also focussed on sharing that wealth and caring for the less fortunate, including those abroad through the aid budget.
    I want a party that is focussed on aspiration and equality of opportunity, that recognises that our current social structure does not give anything like equality of opportunity and seeks to address that with specific policies.
    I want a party with a strong respect for the rule of law (yes, that includes you Home Secretary) but recognises that law is often not the answer and that the State should be careful about the unintended consequences of regulation.
    I want as many people as possible to be a part of a property owning democracy with the security of owning their own homes, security in employment, the opportunities to train and to better themselves. This needs policies encouraging home ownership, in work training, private pensions, the living wage, better job security and encouragement to save.
    I want a government that seeks to live within its means and not burden the next generation with excessive debt, that seeks value for the money it spends, that recognises the adverse economic effect of excessive taxation but also the importance of having all who gain from our society paying their share.

    With Cameron and Osborne a lot, if not all, of those boxes were ticked. The 2017 manifesto ticked fewer and I really don't know what the current state of play is. It is the job of this Conference to tell us, loud and clear. To be honest, I am not holding my breath.

    Cameron and Osborne ?

    Paragraph 1 - Fail - 'March of the Makers' and the world's largest current account deficit
    Paragraph 2 - Fail - Student debt and triple lock pensions plus a chumocracy
    Paragraph 3 - Fail - Nanny state and surveillance state
    Paragraph 4 - Fail - Falling home ownership and stagnant wages
    Paragraph 5 - Fail - Half a trillion borrowed leading to a half a trillion current account deficit

    You need to take a good look at who the Conservatives have pissed off.

    Its the people who have £50k of student debt
    Its the people who are still renting a room at 30
    Its the people who were told "We're all in this together"
    Its the people who thought there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering
    Its the people who were told there would be a 'March of the Makers'
    Its the people who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands
    Its the people who thought there would be sound public finances
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 4,296

    viewcode said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    .The two Aircraft Carriers look nice but are ruinously expensive.

    And are completely pointless as a carrier is militarily useless without a battle group. As of right now, the RN has 6 surface combatant vessels available for operations.

    You will never find a more passionate advocate of naval aviation than me (2 tours on Sea Harrier, 1 on F-14, 1 on Lynx) but the QE class is bleeding every other part of the service white.
    F-14? What, the F-14?. Woo! You've posted before about your presence on US aircraft carriers. Any interesting anecdotes to dish?
    The RN used F-4 Phantom, IIRC. But not F-14
    I know. I think @Dura_Ace has served on US carriers.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 4,296
    edited September 30

    The Conservatives stand for...credible economics...

    I've sen posts here supporting retaliatory tariffs, in favour of perpetual currency devaluation, and stating that car-washes are wealth-consuming. During his misbegotten tenure as CofE Osborne initiated Help-To-Buy, which started house-prices going up again as he funneled money into a product with inelastic supply and infinite demand.

    My problem with the Conservative party is not that it supports credible economics. My problem is that it doesn't.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 16,570

    Mr. kle4, Boris' ambition eclipses every other part of his personality. He's an oaf.

    The alternative view is that he and Gove about the only Ministers in this government who actually believe in anything beyond their own careers and being marginally less incompetent than Labour. Boris has a vision for this country. It may not be entirely realistic, it may not be universally popular, it may be bordering on barking even but at least he has some idea of what he wants, just like David was calling for on the last thread.

    May should have quit after the fiasco of the GE. Boris is the only one still in the Commons who seems to have the balls to point this out.

    I am not entirely sure that is my view. But May is an embarrassment for the Party and the country. We cannot go on like this.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 38,384
    Looks like civil disturbance will occur tomorrow:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41452174
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 149
    Cabinet minister or junior under Secretary of State for paper clips at the Cabinet office?
  • Boris's plan is simple - push and push and push Theresa until she sacks him. Then he can destroy her from without, his loyalty much less questioned. The problem is that Theresa knows this so won't give him that opportunity. The result: paralysis and disharmony at the most critical time in British history since the Second World War. The Tories have made Corbyn look like the voice of patriotism and good sense. How did this happen?
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 12,340
    DavidL said:

    Mr. kle4, Boris' ambition eclipses every other part of his personality. He's an oaf.

    The alternative view is that he and Gove about the only Ministers in this government who actually believe in anything beyond their own careers and being marginally less incompetent than Labour. Boris has a vision for this country. It may not be entirely realistic, it may not be universally popular, it may be bordering on barking even but at least he has some idea of what he wants, just like David was calling for on the last thread.

    May should have quit after the fiasco of the GE. Boris is the only one still in the Commons who seems to have the balls to point this out.

    I am not entirely sure that is my view. But May is an embarrassment for the Party and the country. We cannot go on like this.
    I broadly agree with the analysis but of the two, I wouldn't pick Boris.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 26,149

    Mr. kle4, Boris' ambition eclipses every other part of his personality. He's an oaf.

    I prefer to think of him, though capable of charm, as an expression I believe he himself coined - a bloviating homunculus.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 26,149

    The Tories have made Corbyn look like the voice of patriotism and good sense. How did this happen?

    It hasn't. They've made themselves look like fools, it hasn't made him less of one.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 16,570

    DavidL said:

    Mr. kle4, Boris' ambition eclipses every other part of his personality. He's an oaf.

    The alternative view is that he and Gove about the only Ministers in this government who actually believe in anything beyond their own careers and being marginally less incompetent than Labour. Boris has a vision for this country. It may not be entirely realistic, it may not be universally popular, it may be bordering on barking even but at least he has some idea of what he wants, just like David was calling for on the last thread.

    May should have quit after the fiasco of the GE. Boris is the only one still in the Commons who seems to have the balls to point this out.

    I am not entirely sure that is my view. But May is an embarrassment for the Party and the country. We cannot go on like this.
    I broadly agree with the analysis but of the two, I wouldn't pick Boris.
    I wouldn't either.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 14,698
    brendan16 said:

    Cabinet minister or junior under Secretary of State for paper clips at the Cabinet office?
    Probably Boris himself.
  • Henry Bolton giving a strong message - one to watch
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 875
    viewcode said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    .The two Aircraft Carriers look nice but are ruinously expensive.

    And are completely pointless as a carrier is militarily useless without a battle group. As of right now, the RN has 6 surface combatant vessels available for operations.

    You will never find a more passionate advocate of naval aviation than me (2 tours on Sea Harrier, 1 on F-14, 1 on Lynx) but the QE class is bleeding every other part of the service white.
    F-14? What, the F-14?. Woo! You've posted before about your presence on US aircraft carriers. Any interesting anecdotes to dish?
    I've got a million war stories and they get more gripping each time I tell them.

    The F-14 conversion on my exchange tour was interesting as there were no twin sticks. I sat in the RIO seat for a couple of visual circuits, we landed back at Oceana, hot fuelled it, switched seats with my brave instructor getting in the back and off we go! What seemed like a very short time later I had to land the brute on the deck of the Shitty Kitty for my first ever arrested landing without the benefit of a T-2/T-45 course first!

    A year and a bit later I was supersonic over Kabul airport flying a TARPS mission on the first (or maybe the second) night of OEF...
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 22,424
    DavidL said:

    Mr. kle4, Boris' ambition eclipses every other part of his personality. He's an oaf.

    The alternative view is that he and Gove about the only Ministers in this government who actually believe in anything beyond their own careers and being marginally less incompetent than Labour. Boris has a vision for this country. It may not be entirely realistic, it may not be universally popular, it may be bordering on barking even but at least he has some idea of what he wants, just like David was calling for on the last thread.

    May should have quit after the fiasco of the GE. Boris is the only one still in the Commons who seems to have the balls to point this out.

    I am not entirely sure that is my view. But May is an embarrassment for the Party and the country. We cannot go on like this.
    What time does the Boris and Theresa Punch and Judy show start?

    I may need to lay in extra popcorn.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 2,812
    edited September 30
    DavidL said:

    Mr. kle4, Boris' ambition eclipses every other part of his personality. He's an oaf.

    The alternative view is that he and Gove about the only Ministers in this government who actually believe in anything beyond their own careers and being marginally less incompetent than Labour. Boris has a vision for this country. It may not be entirely realistic, it may not be universally popular, it may be bordering on barking even but at least he has some idea of what he wants, just like David was calling for on the last thread.

    May should have quit after the fiasco of the GE. Boris is the only one still in the Commons who seems to have the balls to point this out.

    I am not entirely sure that is my view. But May is an embarrassment for the Party and the country. We cannot go on like this.
    Well then Boris should just quit, stating that he can't work under someone that crap. But he knows that such an obvious act of disloyalty wouldn't endear him to the party faithful and might scupper his own leadership plans. Better to let Theresa take the party and country down with her, then build up his leadership bid from the debris.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 4,277

    If Johnson succeeds in deposing May I can't see how he can command the loyalty of enough Tory remainers. A GE would be inevitable.

    How is that general election going to come about? I cannot see the Tories voting for one
    His version of Brexit is not one that could command a consensus. Only requires a few Tory remain MPs with safe seats to rebel ...
    People appear to be missing the point that the changed parliamentary arithmetic since June makes it much more difficult for a Tory PM to call a snap election. If the DUP do not favour such an election, they might prefer to install Corbyn for a limited period. On the other hand, Corbyn may relish the prospect of a replay!
  • Boris is toxic to a Tory Remainer like me. I'd vote IDS before him now.... and I'd sooner cheer on Chelsea than do that.
  • Hmm... odds on him are? He had a terrible GE campaign didn't he?

  • Boris is toxic to a Tory Remainer like me. I'd vote IDS before him now.... and I'd sooner cheer on Chelsea than do that.

    I am a converted remainer but agree, Boris has gone too far
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 26,149

    Hmm... odds on him are? He had a terrible GE campaign didn't he?

    I don't recall him being great, but he's been a useful attack dog in the past - he has a reasonably authoritative manner and is bland to the point testing out attacks does not seem to stick in the mind if it goes wrong.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 1,096

    Hmm... odds on him are? He had a terrible GE campaign didn't he?

    Yes, but was he a Remainer or Brexiters?
    Roundhead or Cavalier?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 16,570

    DavidL said:

    Mr. kle4, Boris' ambition eclipses every other part of his personality. He's an oaf.

    The alternative view is that he and Gove about the only Ministers in this government who actually believe in anything beyond their own careers and being marginally less incompetent than Labour. Boris has a vision for this country. It may not be entirely realistic, it may not be universally popular, it may be bordering on barking even but at least he has some idea of what he wants, just like David was calling for on the last thread.

    May should have quit after the fiasco of the GE. Boris is the only one still in the Commons who seems to have the balls to point this out.

    I am not entirely sure that is my view. But May is an embarrassment for the Party and the country. We cannot go on like this.
    Well then Boris should just quit, stating that he can't work under someone that crap. But he knows that such an obvious act of disloyalty wouldn't endear him to the party faithful and might scupper his own leadership plans. Better to let Theresa take the party and country down with her, then build up his leadership bid from the debris.
    It depends on whether he is getting his own way or not. May's Florence speech seems to have been rewritten by him in large part and he then loudly approved it. As long as he is achieving some of his vision from the inside he is right to fight for it. But it doesn't make for a quiet government.

    The point is we have a zombie PM who made catastrophic errors of judgment, who is incapable of building a team and increasingly seems to have no idea what to do next. Pretending everything is somehow ok in that scenario is really not the answer.
  • Boris is toxic to a Tory Remainer like me. I'd vote IDS before him now.... and I'd sooner cheer on Chelsea than do that.

    I am a converted remainer but agree, Boris has gone too far
    It used to be said that Cameron didn't stand for anything and just wanted to be PM for being PM sake, Boris is hardly a break from that accusation.

    His blatant manoeuvres suggest that he might as well make a trip to visit some British troops somewhere in the world on the day May does her big speech to conference....
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 875
    Has Boris done something else since his Telegraph article? He does seem to be trying to get just enough distance between himself and May so that he can blame her when Brexit (inevitably) fucks up.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 2,113
    My daughter a regional manager in retail alongside some of her work colleagues slept out on the street last night in Leeds to raise money for a charity , Simon on the street .
    I told my elderly father about it who is very proud of her.He told me he goes for a drink every Wednesday in the Conservative club and he has noticed the increase in people sleeping in doorways over the past year in York as he walked for his bus home.
    The wife and I were invited to a wedding evening do , the first time in a while, I had been out in the early hours for a bit, and I could concur with their observations.Whether this increase is tied to Universal Credit I do not know but it is reminiscent of the 1980s.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 14,698
    May should do a conference address in the same vein as her famous ‘nasty party’ speech, disown the promises of the Leave campaign and hang Boris out to dry.
  • Good news for the NHS, though. Another £350 million a week coming their way.

    £350m per week is £18bn per year.

    In 2016 the UK had a current account deficit of over £115bn.

    Does that make you think ? It should do.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 26,149

    Boris is toxic to a Tory Remainer like me. I'd vote IDS before him now.... and I'd sooner cheer on Chelsea than do that.

    I am a converted remainer but agree, Boris has gone too far
    It used to be said that Cameron didn't stand for anything and just wanted to be PM for being PM sake, Boris is hardly a break from that accusation.
    .
    But was Cameron as blatantly disruptive to a serving leader in pursuit of his ambitions?

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 4,296
    Dura_Ace said:

    viewcode said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    .The two Aircraft Carriers look nice but are ruinously expensive.

    And are completely pointless as a carrier is militarily useless without a battle group. As of right now, the RN has 6 surface combatant vessels available for operations.

    You will never find a more passionate advocate of naval aviation than me (2 tours on Sea Harrier, 1 on F-14, 1 on Lynx) but the QE class is bleeding every other part of the service white.
    F-14? What, the F-14?. Woo! You've posted before about your presence on US aircraft carriers. Any interesting anecdotes to dish?
    I've got a million war stories and they get more gripping each time I tell them.

    The F-14 conversion on my exchange tour was interesting as there were no twin sticks. I sat in the RIO seat for a couple of visual circuits, we landed back at Oceana, hot fuelled it, switched seats with my brave instructor getting in the back and off we go! What seemed like a very short time later I had to land the brute on the deck of the Shitty Kitty for my first ever arrested landing without the benefit of a T-2/T-45 course first!

    A year and a bit later I was supersonic over Kabul airport flying a TARPS mission on the first (or maybe the second) night of OEF...
    I guessed what RIO, T-45 and OEF were, but the rest I had to google. Woo, impressive. You still flying?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 17,319
    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    .The two Aircraft Carriers look nice but are ruinously expensive.

    And are completely pointless as a carrier is militarily useless without a battle group. As of right now, the RN has 6 surface combatant vessels available for operations.

    You will never find a more passionate advocate of naval aviation than me (2 tours on Sea Harrier, 1 on F-14, 1 on Lynx) but the QE class is bleeding every other part of the service white.
    F-14? What, the F-14?. Woo! You've posted before about your presence on US aircraft carriers. Any interesting anecdotes to dish?
    The RN used F-4 Phantom, IIRC. But not F-14
    I know. I think @Dura_Ace has served on US carriers.
    My wife was the USS Nimitz's pin up for a while. Still have the photos somewhere :smiley:
  • The idea that if Boris takes over now he will be responsible for any Brexit issues so he should wait is utterly absurd.

    Boris is inextricably tied to Brexit. The referendum saw to that. There is no way to dodge responsibility just by not being the one in charge so he may as well be the one in charge.

    View it as like Game Theory. There's only a few possible plausible possibilities.

    1: May stays, Brexit is a success. May wins and recovers her reputation.
    2: May stays, Brexit is a failure. May and Boris are destroyed.
    3: May goes now, Boris takes over - Boris is responsible and will live or die on his own success.
    4: May goes now, someone else takes over. Boris has probably missed his window of opportunity.

    I don't see a path that leads from May staying to Boris.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 1,815
    RobD said:
    If Boris is going to write articles questioning the patriotism of young people, what do the Tories expect?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 26,149
    edited September 30
    JonathanD said:

    RobD said:
    If Boris is going to write articles questioning the patriotism of young people, what do the Tories expect?
    Like that would have made a difference.

    Besides which, no party deserves such hostility, and certainly not mainstream centrist parties. What mainstream centrist party should expect that people express a wish to hang them merely for belonging to it? It's absurd to suggest it should be expected.
  • JonathanD said:

    RobD said:
    If Boris is going to write articles questioning the patriotism of young people, what do the Tories expect?
    Not death threats?
  • kle4 said:

    Boris is toxic to a Tory Remainer like me. I'd vote IDS before him now.... and I'd sooner cheer on Chelsea than do that.

    I am a converted remainer but agree, Boris has gone too far
    It used to be said that Cameron didn't stand for anything and just wanted to be PM for being PM sake, Boris is hardly a break from that accusation.
    .
    But was Cameron as blatantly disruptive to a serving leader in pursuit of his ambitions?

    Nope - just another reason to keep Boris out.
  • May should do a conference address in the same vein as her famous ‘nasty party’ speech, disown the promises of the Leave campaign and hang Boris out to dry.

    May should sack Boris from the podium. It would make great theatre and be one of the most electrifying political events of modern times.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 33,646

    May should do a conference address in the same vein as her famous ‘nasty party’ speech, disown the promises of the Leave campaign and hang Boris out to dry.

    May should sack Boris from the podium. It would make great theatre and be one of the most electrifying political events of modern times.
    If she denounced Boris and Leave from the podium she would probably end up being booed and would lose a no confidence vote within a week
  • RobD said:
    They should have had the conference in Dronfield - they vote Conservative there.

    Easier for TSE to get to as well.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 875
    viewcode said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    viewcode said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    .The two Aircraft Carriers look nice but are ruinously expensive.

    And are completely pointless as a carrier is militarily useless without a battle group. As of right now, the RN has 6 surface combatant vessels available for operations.

    You will never find a more passionate advocate of naval aviation than me (2 tours on Sea Harrier, 1 on F-14, 1 on Lynx) but the QE class is bleeding every other part of the service white.
    F-14? What, the F-14?. Woo! You've posted before about your presence on US aircraft carriers. Any interesting anecdotes to dish?
    I've got a million war stories and they get more gripping each time I tell them.

    The F-14 conversion on my exchange tour was interesting as there were no twin sticks. I sat in the RIO seat for a couple of visual circuits, we landed back at Oceana, hot fuelled it, switched seats with my brave instructor getting in the back and off we go! What seemed like a very short time later I had to land the brute on the deck of the Shitty Kitty for my first ever arrested landing without the benefit of a T-2/T-45 course first!

    A year and a bit later I was supersonic over Kabul airport flying a TARPS mission on the first (or maybe the second) night of OEF...
    I guessed what RIO, T-45 and OEF were, but the rest I had to google. Woo, impressive. You still flying?
    No, I had 5 star, gold plated PTSD after CHF Lynx antics in and around Basra so I quit the Senior Service. I have and had zero interest in civil aviation so I did other things.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 38,384
    Off now, shall return in the evening to check the markets. Currently, nothing's caught my eye.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    viewcode said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    viewcode said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    .The two Aircraft Carriers look nice but are ruinously expensive.

    And are completely pointless as a carrier is militarily useless without a battle group. As of right now, the RN has 6 surface combatant vessels available for operations.

    You will never find a more passionate advocate of naval aviation than me (2 tours on Sea Harrier, 1 on F-14, 1 on Lynx) but the QE class is bleeding every other part of the service white.
    F-14? What, the F-14?. Woo! You've posted before about your presence on US aircraft carriers. Any interesting anecdotes to dish?
    I've got a million war stories and they get more gripping each time I tell them.

    The F-14 conversion on my exchange tour was interesting as there were no twin sticks. I sat in the RIO seat for a couple of visual circuits, we landed back at Oceana, hot fuelled it, switched seats with my brave instructor getting in the back and off we go! What seemed like a very short time later I had to land the brute on the deck of the Shitty Kitty for my first ever arrested landing without the benefit of a T-2/T-45 course first!

    A year and a bit later I was supersonic over Kabul airport flying a TARPS mission on the first (or maybe the second) night of OEF...
    I guessed what RIO, T-45 and OEF were, but the rest I had to google. Woo, impressive. You still flying?
    No, I had 5 star, gold plated PTSD after CHF Lynx antics in and around Basra so I quit the Senior Service. I have and had zero interest in civil aviation so I did other things.
    Out of interest what would you have replaced the two new carriers with ? Would equivalents of the Invincibles have been possible ?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 33,646

    @HYUFD You either completely misunderstand what Universal Credit is, what it does and who it's paid to or are just trolling.

    No you clearly misunderstand that Universal Credit is rolling benefits into one simplifying an impossible system and ending the outrageous current system where you can lose all your benefits just for doing some part time work
  • Boris is toxic to a Tory Remainer like me. I'd vote IDS before him now.... and I'd sooner cheer on Chelsea than do that.

    I am a converted remainer but agree, Boris has gone too far
    As I am not a Tory party member Boris is neither toxic nor sweet to me. However even though he was a Brexiteer I certainly do not think he is fit to be PM. He makes far too many mistakes, appears to flit back and forth between positions of principle until you realise he has no principle and is by all accounts, too lazy to actually master any brief.

    How any one could ever think that such an individual is fit to be PM is beyond me.
  • I'm surprised by the lack of discussion of what's going on in Catalonia. We seem to be on the brink of a possible civil war or velvet revolution right on our doorsteps.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 875

    Dura_Ace said:

    viewcode said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    viewcode said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    .The two Aircraft Carriers look nice but are ruinously expensive.

    And are completely pointless as a carrier is militarily useless without a battle group. As of right now, the RN has 6 surface combatant vessels available for operations.

    You will never find a more passionate advocate of naval aviation than me (2 tours on Sea Harrier, 1 on F-14, 1 on Lynx) but the QE class is bleeding every other part of the service white.
    F-14? What, the F-14?. Woo! You've posted before about your presence on US aircraft carriers. Any interesting anecdotes to dish?
    I've got a million war stories and they get more gripping each time I tell them.

    The F-14 conversion on my exchange tour was interesting as there were no twin sticks. I sat in the RIO seat for a couple of visual circuits, we landed back at Oceana, hot fuelled it, switched seats with my brave instructor getting in the back and off we go! What seemed like a very short time later I had to land the brute on the deck of the Shitty Kitty for my first ever arrested landing without the benefit of a T-2/T-45 course first!

    A year and a bit later I was supersonic over Kabul airport flying a TARPS mission on the first (or maybe the second) night of OEF...
    I guessed what RIO, T-45 and OEF were, but the rest I had to google. Woo, impressive. You still flying?
    No, I had 5 star, gold plated PTSD after CHF Lynx antics in and around Basra so I quit the Senior Service. I have and had zero interest in civil aviation so I did other things.
    Out of interest what would you have replaced the two new carriers with ? Would equivalents of the Invincibles have been possible ?
    Sadly I don't believe the UK is prepared to pay for a meaningful fixed wing naval aviation capability so something like the Japanese Hyuga class helicopter carrying "destroyer" would have made a lot more sense. Wasp class LHDs would have been cheaper and quicker if we did really want a fixed wing platform.
  • stevefstevef Posts: 256
    May unlike IDS is a sitting prime minister, who even though she lost her majority, won the election.
  • stevefstevef Posts: 256

    Boris is toxic to a Tory Remainer like me. I'd vote IDS before him now.... and I'd sooner cheer on Chelsea than do that.

    I am a converted remainer but agree, Boris has gone too far
    As I am not a Tory party member Boris is neither toxic nor sweet to me. However even though he was a Brexiteer I certainly do not think he is fit to be PM. He makes far too many mistakes, appears to flit back and forth between positions of principle until you realise he has no principle and is by all accounts, too lazy to actually master any brief.

    How any one could ever think that such an individual is fit to be PM is beyond me.
    That description also suits Corbyn multiplied by ten.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 12,024
    kle4 said:

    JonathanD said:

    RobD said:
    If Boris is going to write articles questioning the patriotism of young people, what do the Tories expect?
    Like that would have made a difference.

    Besides which, no party deserves such hostility, and certainly not mainstream centrist parties. What mainstream centrist party should expect that people express a wish to hang them merely for belonging to it? It's absurd to suggest it should be expected.
    Brought to you by the same left fascists who threaten to attack TV journalists at their place of work.

  • Boris is toxic to a Tory Remainer like me. I'd vote IDS before him now.... and I'd sooner cheer on Chelsea than do that.

    I am a converted remainer but agree, Boris has gone too far
    As I am not a Tory party member Boris is neither toxic nor sweet to me. However even though he was a Brexiteer I certainly do not think he is fit to be PM. He makes far too many mistakes, appears to flit back and forth between positions of principle until you realise he has no principle and is by all accounts, too lazy to actually master any brief.

    How any one could ever think that such an individual is fit to be PM is beyond me.
    He's a bit like one of the posh amateurs who were England cricket captains even though they were rarely good enough to be in the side.

    Boris as Percy Chapman and Cameron as Gubby Allen perhaps.

    What we need though is a Douglas Jardine.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 17,319

    I'm surprised by the lack of discussion of what's going on in Catalonia. We seem to be on the brink of a possible civil war or velvet revolution right on our doorsteps.

    But Brexit Brexit Brexit...ooooohhh Jeremy Corbyn...
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 1,096
    Corbyn or Johnson - who would you pick?
    The Bolshevik or the Charlatan?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 4,296
    Dura_Ace said:

    viewcode said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    viewcode said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    .The two Aircraft Carriers look nice but are ruinously expensive.

    And are completely pointless as a carrier is militarily useless without a battle group. As of right now, the RN has 6 surface combatant vessels available for operations.

    You will never find a more passionate advocate of naval aviation than me (2 tours on Sea Harrier, 1 on F-14, 1 on Lynx) but the QE class is bleeding every other part of the service white.
    F-14? What, the F-14?. Woo! You've posted before about your presence on US aircraft carriers. Any interesting anecdotes to dish?
    I've got a million war stories and they get more gripping each time I tell them.

    The F-14 conversion on my exchange tour was interesting as there were no twin sticks. I sat in the RIO seat for a couple of visual circuits, we landed back at Oceana, hot fuelled it, switched seats with my brave instructor getting in the back and off we go! What seemed like a very short time later I had to land the brute on the deck of the Shitty Kitty for my first ever arrested landing without the benefit of a T-2/T-45 course first!

    A year and a bit later I was supersonic over Kabul airport flying a TARPS mission on the first (or maybe the second) night of OEF...
    I guessed what RIO, T-45 and OEF were, but the rest I had to google. Woo, impressive. You still flying?
    No, I had 5 star, gold plated PTSD after CHF Lynx antics in and around Basra so I quit the Senior Service. I have and had zero interest in civil aviation so I did other things.
    I hope the other things work out for you.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 17,319
    HYUFD said:

    May should do a conference address in the same vein as her famous ‘nasty party’ speech, disown the promises of the Leave campaign and hang Boris out to dry.

    May should sack Boris from the podium. It would make great theatre and be one of the most electrifying political events of modern times.
    If she denounced Boris and Leave from the podium she would probably end up being booed and would lose a no confidence vote within a week
    The people have voted for Leave, and Leave we will. But at a time when the country is engaged in difficult and complicated negotiations personal ambition must take a back seat. As politicians we must never forget that we serve the voters and the national interest first and foremost: we can, and should, debate long and hard behind doors but in public we must speak with one voice.

    Sadly Secretary Johnson has repeatedly demonstrated that he is unable to put the national interest ahead of his own desires. Someone who is unable to do that has no place in my government - no place in any government. That is why, shortly before this speech, I asked him to resign as Foreign Secretary.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 4,296
    Charles said:

    My wife was the USS Nimitz's pin up for a while. Still have the photos somewhere :smiley:

    Pause.

    No, I got nothing... :)

  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 875
    viewcode said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    viewcode said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    viewcode said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    .The two Aircraft Carriers look nice but are ruinously expensive.

    And are completely pointless as a carrier is militarily useless without a battle group. As of right now, the RN has 6 surface combatant vessels available for operations.

    You will never find a more passionate advocate of naval aviation than me (2 tours on Sea Harrier, 1 on F-14, 1 on Lynx) but the QE class is bleeding every other part of the service white.
    F-14? What, the F-14?. Woo! You've posted before about your presence on US aircraft carriers. Any interesting anecdotes to dish?
    I've got a million war stories and they get more gripping each time I tell them.

    The F-14 conversion on my exchange tour was interesting as there were no twin sticks. I sat in the RIO seat for a couple of visual circuits, we landed back at Oceana, hot fuelled it, switched seats with my brave instructor getting in the back and off we go! What seemed like a very short time later I had to land the brute on the deck of the Shitty Kitty for my first ever arrested landing without the benefit of a T-2/T-45 course first!

    A year and a bit later I was supersonic over Kabul airport flying a TARPS mission on the first (or maybe the second) night of OEF...
    I guessed what RIO, T-45 and OEF were, but the rest I had to google. Woo, impressive. You still flying?
    No, I had 5 star, gold plated PTSD after CHF Lynx antics in and around Basra so I quit the Senior Service. I have and had zero interest in civil aviation so I did other things.
    I hope the other things work out for you.
    Cheers. I became a language teacher. There are worse ways to make a living.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 33,646
    edited September 30
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    May should do a conference address in the same vein as her famous ‘nasty party’ speech, disown the promises of the Leave campaign and hang Boris out to dry.

    May should sack Boris from the podium. It would make great theatre and be one of the most electrifying political events of modern times.
    If she denounced Boris and Leave from the podium she would probably end up being booed and would lose a no confidence vote within a week
    The people have voted for Leave, and Leave we will. But at a time when the country is engaged in difficult and complicated negotiations personal ambition must take a back seat. As politicians we must never forget that we serve the voters and the national interest first and foremost: we can, and should, debate long and hard behind doors but in public we must speak with one voice.

    Sadly Secretary Johnson has repeatedly demonstrated that he is unable to put the national interest ahead of his own desires. Someone who is unable to do that has no place in my government - no place in any government. That is why, shortly before this speech, I asked him to resign as Foreign Secretary.
    Boris is doing nothing but ensure the argument that the transition period should be 2 years maximum and no more is heard and as Foreign Secretary that is entirely in accordance with his remit.

    As for the 'voters' yougov last week had 52% wanting a transition period of no more than 2 years and 26% wanted no transition period at all
  • The idea that if Boris takes over now he will be responsible for any Brexit issues so he should wait is utterly absurd.

    Boris is inextricably tied to Brexit. The referendum saw to that. There is no way to dodge responsibility just by not being the one in charge so he may as well be the one in charge.

    View it as like Game Theory. There's only a few possible plausible possibilities.

    1: May stays, Brexit is a success. May wins and recovers her reputation.
    2: May stays, Brexit is a failure. May and Boris are destroyed.
    3: May goes now, Boris takes over - Boris is responsible and will live or die on his own success.
    4: May goes now, someone else takes over. Boris has probably missed his window of opportunity.

    I don't see a path that leads from May staying to Boris.

    Exactly. As Shakespeare put it -

    "There is a tide in the affairs of men, Which taken at the flood, leads on to fortune. Omitted, all the voyage of their life is bound in shallows and in miseries."
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 33,646

    I'm surprised by the lack of discussion of what's going on in Catalonia. We seem to be on the brink of a possible civil war or velvet revolution right on our doorsteps.

    That is a matter for Spain, an unwise decision they may have taken in banning the referendum but that is there decision, same as Spain largely stayed out of indyref 2014 apart from the odd statement supporting the British government position
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 17,319
    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    May should do a conference address in the same vein as her famous ‘nasty party’ speech, disown the promises of the Leave campaign and hang Boris out to dry.

    May should sack Boris from the podium. It would make great theatre and be one of the most electrifying political events of modern times.
    If she denounced Boris and Leave from the podium she would probably end up being booed and would lose a no confidence vote within a week
    The people have voted for Leave, and Leave we will. But at a time when the country is engaged in difficult and complicated negotiations personal ambition must take a back seat. As politicians we must never forget that we serve the voters and the national interest first and foremost: we can, and should, debate long and hard behind doors but in public we must speak with one voice.

    Sadly Secretary Johnson has repeatedly demonstrated that he is unable to put the national interest ahead of his own desires. Someone who is unable to do that has no place in my government - no place in any government. That is why, shortly before this speech, I asked him to resign as Foreign Secretary.
    Boris is doing nothing but ensure the argument that the transition period should be 2 years maximum and no more is heard and as Foreign Secretary that is entirely in accordance with his remit.

    As for the 'voters' yougov last week had 52% wanting a transition period of no more than 2 years and 26% wanted no transition period at all
    NOT in public
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 26,149

    The idea that if Boris takes over now he will be responsible for any Brexit issues so he should wait is utterly absurd.

    Boris is inextricably tied to Brexit. The referendum saw to that. There is no way to dodge responsibility just by not being the one in charge so he may as well be the one in charge.

    Not true - if he is cut out of the negotiations he can argue he was not able to ensure any deal or not happened as the people desired. Yes, some will never forgive him, but if he is out he has some level of flexibility he does not have now.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 4,897
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    May should do a conference address in the same vein as her famous ‘nasty party’ speech, disown the promises of the Leave campaign and hang Boris out to dry.

    May should sack Boris from the podium. It would make great theatre and be one of the most electrifying political events of modern times.
    If she denounced Boris and Leave from the podium she would probably end up being booed and would lose a no confidence vote within a week
    The people have voted for Leave, and Leave we will. But at a time when the country is engaged in difficult and complicated negotiations personal ambition must take a back seat. As politicians we must never forget that we serve the voters and the national interest first and foremost: we can, and should, debate long and hard behind doors but in public we must speak with one voice.

    Sadly Secretary Johnson has repeatedly demonstrated that he is unable to put the national interest ahead of his own desires. Someone who is unable to do that has no place in my government - no place in any government. That is why, shortly before this speech, I asked him to resign as Foreign Secretary.

    If she pulled that one, it would be like pressing the nuclear button with the missiles aimed at herself.

    No-one would.... *thinks about GE2017* ... ok it's a possibility.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 12,024

    The idea that if Boris takes over now he will be responsible for any Brexit issues so he should wait is utterly absurd.

    Boris is inextricably tied to Brexit. The referendum saw to that. There is no way to dodge responsibility just by not being the one in charge so he may as well be the one in charge.

    View it as like Game Theory. There's only a few possible plausible possibilities.

    1: May stays, Brexit is a success. May wins and recovers her reputation.
    2: May stays, Brexit is a failure. May and Boris are destroyed.
    3: May goes now, Boris takes over - Boris is responsible and will live or die on his own success.
    4: May goes now, someone else takes over. Boris has probably missed his window of opportunity.

    I don't see a path that leads from May staying to Boris.

    Exactly. As Shakespeare put it -

    "There is a tide in the affairs of men, Which taken at the flood, leads on to fortune. Omitted, all the voyage of their life is bound in shallows and in miseries."
    No, because 1 is flawed. May stays, Brexit is a success. Despite this success, the party knows it needs a fresh face for GE 2021/2 and ditches her.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 1,096

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    May should do a conference address in the same vein as her famous ‘nasty party’ speech, disown the promises of the Leave campaign and hang Boris out to dry.

    May should sack Boris from the podium. It would make great theatre and be one of the most electrifying political events of modern times.
    If she denounced Boris and Leave from the podium she would probably end up being booed and would lose a no confidence vote within a week
    The people have voted for Leave, and Leave we will. But at a time when the country is engaged in difficult and complicated negotiations personal ambition must take a back seat. As politicians we must never forget that we serve the voters and the national interest first and foremost: we can, and should, debate long and hard behind doors but in public we must speak with one voice.

    Sadly Secretary Johnson has repeatedly demonstrated that he is unable to put the national interest ahead of his own desires. Someone who is unable to do that has no place in my government - no place in any government. That is why, shortly before this speech, I asked him to resign as Foreign Secretary.

    If she pulled that one, it would be like pressing the nuclear button with the missiles aimed at herself.

    No-one would.... *thinks about GE2017* ... ok it's a possibility.

    It would make her more popular.
    Iron Lady redux.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 33,646
    edited September 30
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    May should do a conference address in the same vein as her famous ‘nasty party’ speech, disown the promises of the Leave campaign and hang Boris out to dry.

    May should sack Boris from the podium. It would make great theatre and be one of the most electrifying political events of modern times.
    If she denounced Boris and Leave from the podium she would probably end up being booed and would lose a no confidence vote within a week
    The people have voted for Leave, and Leave we will. But at a time when the country is engaged in difficult and complicated negotiations personal ambition must take a back seat. As politicians we must never forget that we serve the voters and the national interest first and foremost: we can, and should, debate long and hard behind doors but in public we must speak with one voice.

    Sadly Secretary Johnson has repeatedly demonstrated that he is unable to put the national interest ahead of his own desires. Someone who is unable to do that has no place in my government - no place in any government. That is why, shortly before this speech, I asked him to resign as Foreign Secretary.
    Boris is doing nothing but ensure the argument that the transition period should be 2 years maximum and no more is heard and as Foreign Secretary that is entirely in accordance with his remit.

    As for the 'voters' yougov last week had 52% wanting a transition period of no more than 2 years and 26% wanted no transition period at all
    NOT in public
    He is Foreign Secretary, he is perfectly entitled to reassure the almost 80% of Tory voters who now back Leave and Brexit that a transition period will not lead to Remain by the back door while he is in government
  • stevef said:

    Boris is toxic to a Tory Remainer like me. I'd vote IDS before him now.... and I'd sooner cheer on Chelsea than do that.

    I am a converted remainer but agree, Boris has gone too far
    As I am not a Tory party member Boris is neither toxic nor sweet to me. However even though he was a Brexiteer I certainly do not think he is fit to be PM. He makes far too many mistakes, appears to flit back and forth between positions of principle until you realise he has no principle and is by all accounts, too lazy to actually master any brief.

    How any one could ever think that such an individual is fit to be PM is beyond me.
    That description also suits Corbyn multiplied by ten.
    I genuinely can't say although on reflection I think I disagree with you. I have no idea if he is lazy but I do believe he is principled. I just believe those principles are utterly warped and have no place in a modern western society.

    Neither Boris nor Corbyn are fit to be PM.
  • HYUFD said:

    I'm surprised by the lack of discussion of what's going on in Catalonia. We seem to be on the brink of a possible civil war or velvet revolution right on our doorsteps.

    That is a matter for Spain, an unwise decision they may have taken in banning the referendum but that is there decision, same as Spain largely stayed out of indyref 2014 apart from the odd statement supporting the British government position
    Of course it is a matter for Spain and our government shouldn't intervene but that doesn't mean we can't discuss it.

    We discuss American politics any time anything interesting is happening but this doesn't seem to be grabbing people's interest and its right on our doorstep.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 610
    HYUFD said:

    I'm surprised by the lack of discussion of what's going on in Catalonia. We seem to be on the brink of a possible civil war or velvet revolution right on our doorsteps.

    That is a matter for Spain, an unwise decision they may have taken in banning the referendum but that is there decision, same as Spain largely stayed out of indyref 2014 apart from the odd statement supporting the British government position
    We had one this morning
  • I'm surprised by the lack of discussion of what's going on in Catalonia. We seem to be on the brink of a possible civil war or velvet revolution right on our doorsteps.

    We have been discussing it. But there is a consensus that it is one of those utterly intractable problems which appears to have its own momentum and is steamrolling inexorably towards bloodshed.

    At that point it kind of went past the discussion stage. All we can do is look on in horror.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 33,646

    HYUFD said:

    I'm surprised by the lack of discussion of what's going on in Catalonia. We seem to be on the brink of a possible civil war or velvet revolution right on our doorsteps.

    That is a matter for Spain, an unwise decision they may have taken in banning the referendum but that is there decision, same as Spain largely stayed out of indyref 2014 apart from the odd statement supporting the British government position
    Of course it is a matter for Spain and our government shouldn't intervene but that doesn't mean we can't discuss it.

    We discuss American politics any time anything interesting is happening but this doesn't seem to be grabbing people's interest and its right on our doorstep.
    It was discussed a bit in the last thread I believe but I expect there will be rather more discussion tomorrow night after the result
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 1,603

    The idea that if Boris takes over now he will be responsible for any Brexit issues so he should wait is utterly absurd.

    Boris is inextricably tied to Brexit. The referendum saw to that. There is no way to dodge responsibility just by not being the one in charge so he may as well be the one in charge.

    View it as like Game Theory. There's only a few possible plausible possibilities.

    1: May stays, Brexit is a success. May wins and recovers her reputation.
    2: May stays, Brexit is a failure. May and Boris are destroyed.
    3: May goes now, Boris takes over - Boris is responsible and will live or die on his own success.
    4: May goes now, someone else takes over. Boris has probably missed his window of opportunity.

    I don't see a path that leads from May staying to Boris.

    Exactly. As Shakespeare put it -

    "There is a tide in the affairs of men, Which taken at the flood, leads on to fortune. Omitted, all the voyage of their life is bound in shallows and in miseries."
    Beautifully put; he certainly had a way with words did that Will Shakespeare!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 12,024
    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    May should do a conference address in the same vein as her famous ‘nasty party’ speech, disown the promises of the Leave campaign and hang Boris out to dry.

    May should sack Boris from the podium. It would make great theatre and be one of the most electrifying political events of modern times.
    If she denounced Boris and Leave from the podium she would probably end up being booed and would lose a no confidence vote within a week
    The people have voted for Leave, and Leave we will. But at a time when the country is engaged in difficult and complicated negotiations personal ambition must take a back seat. As politicians we must never forget that we serve the voters and the national interest first and foremost: we can, and should, debate long and hard behind doors but in public we must speak with one voice.

    Sadly Secretary Johnson has repeatedly demonstrated that he is unable to put the national interest ahead of his own desires. Someone who is unable to do that has no place in my government - no place in any government. That is why, shortly before this speech, I asked him to resign as Foreign Secretary.
    Boris is doing nothing but ensure the argument that the transition period should be 2 years maximum and no more is heard and as Foreign Secretary that is entirely in accordance with his remit.

    As for the 'voters' yougov last week had 52% wanting a transition period of no more than 2 years and 26% wanted no transition period at all
    NOT in public
    He is Foreign Secretary, he is perfectly entitled to reassure the almost 80% of Tory voters who now back Leave and Brexit that a transition period will not lead to Remain by the back door while he is in government
    Seems to me Boris has broken Cabinet collective responsibility. The words May said in Florence, which presumably accurately represent what was agreed by that morning's Cabinet were:

    "As of today, these considerations point to an implementation period of around two years."

    Boris has stated it cannot be "a second more" than two years.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 33,646

    stevef said:

    Boris is toxic to a Tory Remainer like me. I'd vote IDS before him now.... and I'd sooner cheer on Chelsea than do that.

    I am a converted remainer but agree, Boris has gone too far
    As I am not a Tory party member Boris is neither toxic nor sweet to me. However even though he was a Brexiteer I certainly do not think he is fit to be PM. He makes far too many mistakes, appears to flit back and forth between positions of principle until you realise he has no principle and is by all accounts, too lazy to actually master any brief.

    How any one could ever think that such an individual is fit to be PM is beyond me.
    That description also suits Corbyn multiplied by ten.
    I genuinely can't say although on reflection I think I disagree with you. I have no idea if he is lazy but I do believe he is principled. I just believe those principles are utterly warped and have no place in a modern western society.

    Neither Boris nor Corbyn are fit to be PM.
    Although at the moment it looks like the next general election will be Boris v Corbyn, hard Brexit v Socialism (or Alien v Predator for centrist Remainers)
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 1,603

    The idea that if Boris takes over now he will be responsible for any Brexit issues so he should wait is utterly absurd.

    Boris is inextricably tied to Brexit. The referendum saw to that. There is no way to dodge responsibility just by not being the one in charge so he may as well be the one in charge.

    View it as like Game Theory. There's only a few possible plausible possibilities.

    1: May stays, Brexit is a success. May wins and recovers her reputation.
    2: May stays, Brexit is a failure. May and Boris are destroyed.
    3: May goes now, Boris takes over - Boris is responsible and will live or die on his own success.
    4: May goes now, someone else takes over. Boris has probably missed his window of opportunity.

    I don't see a path that leads from May staying to Boris.

    Exactly. As Shakespeare put it -

    "There is a tide in the affairs of men, Which taken at the flood, leads on to fortune. Omitted, all the voyage of their life is bound in shallows and in miseries."
    No, because 1 is flawed. May stays, Brexit is a success. Despite this success, the party knows it needs a fresh face for GE 2021/2 and ditches her.
    ... but too late for Boris by then.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 12,340
    justin124 said:

    If Johnson succeeds in deposing May I can't see how he can command the loyalty of enough Tory remainers. A GE would be inevitable.

    How is that general election going to come about? I cannot see the Tories voting for one
    His version of Brexit is not one that could command a consensus. Only requires a few Tory remain MPs with safe seats to rebel ...
    People appear to be missing the point that the changed parliamentary arithmetic since June makes it much more difficult for a Tory PM to call a snap election. If the DUP do not favour such an election, they might prefer to install Corbyn for a limited period. On the other hand, Corbyn may relish the prospect of a replay!
    I have no doubt that Corbyn would go along with any call for a new election. If he was happy to do so when he was 20+ points behind in the polls, he'll certainly do so at level pegging or better (or even off a small deficit, should the Tories recover a bit).

    By contrast, I can't see the DUP putting Corbyn into power - not least because the maths are so tight that even if you ignore their policy differences, Corbyn couldn't be sure of delivering on any promises made to the DUP as they'd have to have SNP, Lib Dem and other backing too.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 33,646
    edited September 30

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    May should do a conference address in the same vein as her famous ‘nasty party’ speech, disown the promises of the Leave campaign and hang Boris out to dry.

    May should sack Boris from the podium. It would make great theatre and be one of the most electrifying political events of modern times.
    If she denounced Boris and Leave from the podium she would probably end up being booed and would lose a no confidence vote within a week
    The people have voted for Leave, and Leave we will. But at a time when the country is engaged in difficult and complicated negotiations personal ambition must take a back seat. As politicians we must never forget that we serve the voters and the national interest first and foremost: we can, and should, debate long and hard behind doors but in public we must speak with one voice.

    Sadly Secretary Johnson has repeatedly demonstrated that he is unable to put the national interest ahead of his own desires. Someone who is unable to do that has no place in my government - no place in any government. That is why, shortly before this speech, I asked him to resign as Foreign Secretary.
    Boris is doing nothing but ensure the argument that the transition period should be 2 years maximum and no more is heard and as Foreign Secretary that is entirely in accordance with his remit.

    As for the 'voters' yougov last week had 52% wanting a transition period of no more than 2 years and 26% wanted no transition period at all
    NOT in public
    He is Foreign Secretary, he is perfectly entitled to reassure the almost 80% of Tory voters who now back Leave and Brexit that a transition period will not lead to Remain by the back door while he is in government
    Seems to me Boris has broken Cabinet collective responsibility. The words May said in Florence, which presumably accurately represent what was agreed by that morning's Cabinet were:

    "As of today, these considerations point to an implementation period of around two years."

    Boris has stated it cannot be "a second more" than two years.
    So he has not contradicted her, just made clear that a transition period of 'around' two years must 'not be a second more' than two years
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 12,024

    stevef said:

    Boris is toxic to a Tory Remainer like me. I'd vote IDS before him now.... and I'd sooner cheer on Chelsea than do that.

    I am a converted remainer but agree, Boris has gone too far
    As I am not a Tory party member Boris is neither toxic nor sweet to me. However even though he was a Brexiteer I certainly do not think he is fit to be PM. He makes far too many mistakes, appears to flit back and forth between positions of principle until you realise he has no principle and is by all accounts, too lazy to actually master any brief.

    How any one could ever think that such an individual is fit to be PM is beyond me.
    That description also suits Corbyn multiplied by ten.
    I genuinely can't say although on reflection I think I disagree with you. I have no idea if he is lazy but I do believe he is principled. I just believe those principles are utterly warped and have no place in a modern western society.

    Neither Boris nor Corbyn are fit to be PM.
    I very much doubt that Corbyn is lazy. The trouble is where he puts his energy, the whole reason he gets up in the morning, seems to be around protesting, campaigning, speaking at rallies etc.

    I really can't see how he is going to cope, never mind remotely enjoy, endless Cabinet sub-committee meetings and red boxes as PM.
  • I'm surprised by the lack of discussion of what's going on in Catalonia. We seem to be on the brink of a possible civil war or velvet revolution right on our doorsteps.

    We have been discussing it. But there is a consensus that it is one of those utterly intractable problems which appears to have its own momentum and is steamrolling inexorably towards bloodshed.

    At that point it kind of went past the discussion stage. All we can do is look on in horror.
    I must have missed that.

    I hope it doesn't lead to bloodshed.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 12,024

    The idea that if Boris takes over now he will be responsible for any Brexit issues so he should wait is utterly absurd.

    Boris is inextricably tied to Brexit. The referendum saw to that. There is no way to dodge responsibility just by not being the one in charge so he may as well be the one in charge.

    View it as like Game Theory. There's only a few possible plausible possibilities.

    1: May stays, Brexit is a success. May wins and recovers her reputation.
    2: May stays, Brexit is a failure. May and Boris are destroyed.
    3: May goes now, Boris takes over - Boris is responsible and will live or die on his own success.
    4: May goes now, someone else takes over. Boris has probably missed his window of opportunity.

    I don't see a path that leads from May staying to Boris.

    Exactly. As Shakespeare put it -

    "There is a tide in the affairs of men, Which taken at the flood, leads on to fortune. Omitted, all the voyage of their life is bound in shallows and in miseries."
    No, because 1 is flawed. May stays, Brexit is a success. Despite this success, the party knows it needs a fresh face for GE 2021/2 and ditches her.
    ... but too late for Boris by then.
    Never say never. I not so sure. Seems to me that Boris is likely to be the only candidate with the charisma and optimism to take on Corbyn.
  • HYUFD said:

    I'm surprised by the lack of discussion of what's going on in Catalonia. We seem to be on the brink of a possible civil war or velvet revolution right on our doorsteps.

    That is a matter for Spain, an unwise decision they may have taken in banning the referendum but that is there decision, same as Spain largely stayed out of indyref 2014 apart from the odd statement supporting the British government position

    The Spanish government did not ban the referendum. The Spanish courts have declared it illegal, which it is under Spanish law. Indeed, there is no country in Europe where such a referendum would be legal. The criticism of the Spanish government is that it allowed things to get this far. It did not have to be this way. Ten years ago Catalan separatists were a relatively small minority. It is the Partido Popular that has turned them into such a powerful force.

This discussion has been closed.