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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Big danger for TMay is that the Tory process for ousting a lea

SystemSystem Posts: 3,967
edited October 4 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Big danger for TMay is that the Tory process for ousting a leader is totally separate from the contest that would follow

One of the things that doesn’t seem to have been appreciated about the CON rules is that the process of ousting a leader is totally separate from the leadership election that could follow.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • TwistedFireStopperTwistedFireStopper Posts: 2,332
    edited October 4
    @ TSE

    Clearly, yer man Cameron is the one to blame for the state of your party, and the Nation. Rightly or wrongly, he instigated the Referendum and then threw the towel in as soon as he could, despite his words that he'd stay on for a bit. If he'd hung around, maybe yer other man Osborne might have been in with a chance? Mind you, I can't blame him. He's got a hot wife, loads of money and a lifestyle not many of us will ever have. Why would he hang around to sort the mess out?


    Edit-FIRST!
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 6,547
    This is a bit of a downer as headlines go. "Santa Found Dead"

    http://nypost.com/2017/10/04/archaeologists-discover-the-tomb-of-santa-claus/
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 24,016
    I am not sure which is worse mays conference speech or google pixel 2 announcement.
  • Off topic but trust labour to make stupid decisions.

    The Welsh Government has announced a 'tourist tax' on visitors.

    As tourism is a huge part of the economy Labour sees it as another magic money tree.
  • I can't see how May can pull this back.She's got the reputation of being flaky now, and the likes of Johnson and Davis must smell blood.
  • Richard Nabavi was on the money, she should do a Supermac
  • @ TSE

    Clearly, yer man Cameron is the one to blame for the state of your party, and the Nation. Rightly or wrongly, he instigated the Referendum and then threw the towel in as soon as he could, despite his words that he'd stay on for a bit. If he'd hung around, maybe yer other man Osborne might have been in with a chance? Mind you, I can't blame him. He's got a hot wife, loads of money and a lifestyle not many of us will ever have. Why would he hang around to sort the mess out?


    Edit-FIRST!

    1) It was honour, he said if you lose a nation changing referendum like that, you should quit

    2) He realised he would have been seen as the wrong man to sort out the Brexit deal

    3) If he has decided to stay on, the Leadbangers would have tried to force him out, so it wasn't up to him, which would have impacted on 2)
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 1,420
    If she's willing to stand down on health grounds if challenged, then why is she there? She can't be the prisoner of the party.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 379

    @ TSE

    Clearly, yer man Cameron is the one to blame for the state of your party, and the Nation. Rightly or wrongly, he instigated the Referendum and then threw the towel in as soon as he could, despite his words that he'd stay on for a bit. If he'd hung around, maybe yer other man Osborne might have been in with a chance? Mind you, I can't blame him. He's got a hot wife, loads of money and a lifestyle not many of us will ever have. Why would he hang around to sort the mess out?


    Edit-FIRST!

    Yes, I agree with you on Cameron. I think he was wrong to flounce out as he did. He unilaterally made the referendum commitment despite Osborne allegedly telling him it was folly! He should of been more of a man and a leader and stayed on for a year and then passed the baton on to whoever was deemed most adept by MPs and then the party if it was contested. It took months to trigger article 50, I cannot see a few more months making much difference if it enabled the UK to be better prepared.

    In regards of May I think the media are a bit harsh citing illness, the P45 stunt and the letter falling off the wall. All of these things were completely out of her gift and it could happen to anyone. I do think May is utterly out of her depth and the sooner she is replaced by someone better able to lead the better. The media have a narrative that she is on the road to nowhere so I expect her to gently slip into history very soon.

  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 8,726
    she would stand aside on health grounds.


    Bad cough?
  • WinstanleyWinstanley Posts: 250
    JonathanD said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    JohnO said:


    Ah, so you've become a Tory revolutionary defeatist. There we part company.

    I know, I just find it depressing that she's our least worst option, and this is what has become of our party.

    I

    Theory: the Tory party would be in a far, far better position - likewise the country - if they'd chosen Davis over Cameron back in 2007.

    There would be no Tory party had Davis beaten Cameron in 2005, Brown would have won the snap election against Davis,

    He's not a civil libertarian.

    For starters he opposed same sex marriage.

    He also wants to bring in a de facto ID card for EU citizens.

    He's a hypocrite, he is opposed to foreign courts meddling in our country, but went to the European Court of Justice to stop the government legislation.

    He consistently wings it, as we're seeing with Brexit, he's just not good enough.
    lol. David "essay crisis" Cameron was the very definition of "winging it", he thought he could "wing" the EU negotiation, and then "wing" the EU referendum.

    Oops.
    As Mr Urquhart of this parish will point out, the civil servants pointed out that Dave was someone who always read his briefings.

    Unlike DD.
    Apparently Cameron loftily told Merkel and Hollande that they shouldn't worry, he would win the EU referendum easily, something like 70/30. Then I suppose he went back to playing Fruit Ninja on his iPad.

    Oh dear.
    Dave's two major blunders on the EU ref were

    1) Trying to sell his deal as awesome

    2) He thought the Leave side would be Farage, John Redwood, and the rest of the Tory freak show.

    3) When he realised he would be facing the likes of Gove and Boris, he should have gone medieval on their asses, he didn't want to go blue on blue.

    Assuming Labour voters would swing behind the EU to the extent their MPs did was another problem. Any other leader than Corbyn and the ref would have been 60-40 remain I'd guess.
    (From last thread)

    Labour voters views on the EU were not decided in the campaign, or since 2015. Plenty will have been voting Lab for parliament and UKIP in euro elections.

    Corbyn did remarkably well to carry so many imo. An alternative leadership extolling the EU unequivocally would have got less of a hearing from Labour voters.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 25,063

    @ TSE

    Clearly, yer man Cameron is the one to blame for the state of your party, and the Nation. Rightly or wrongly, he instigated the Referendum and then threw the towel in as soon as he could, despite his words that he'd stay on for a bit. If he'd hung around, maybe yer other man Osborne might have been in with a chance? Mind you, I can't blame him. He's got a hot wife, loads of money and a lifestyle not many of us will ever have. Why would he hang around to sort the mess out?


    Edit-FIRST!

    1) It was honour, he said if you lose a nation changing referendum like that, you should quit

    2) He realised he would have been seen as the wrong man to sort out the Brexit deal

    3) If he has decided to stay on, the Leadbangers would have tried to force him out, so it wasn't up to him, which would have impacted on 2)
    Tory vote 2017 = 13,669,883
    Tory vote 2015 = 11,334,226

    :innocent:
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 6,999

    Richard Nabavi was on the money, she should do a Supermac

    More info reqd.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 6,547
    edited October 4
    I am genuinely intrigued by Rajoy's and the King's position on Catalonia. I presume they are both smart enough to understand that:

    1. democracy and self-determination are very much flip sides of the same coin. The difference is simply a matter of scale.
    2. democracy without some form of protection of minorities is not democracy but tyranny of the masses
    3. regardless of constitutional law, preventing legitimate, non-violent expression of popular feelings, particularly when it represents a plurality or a majority of feeling within a particular well-defined geographical and cultural region, creates a pressure-cooker build up of steam which, unless carefully let off, inevitably will lead to violent explosion at some future point
    4. masked armoured men dressed all in black hitting women, children and the elderly with rubber batons, pulling them by the hair and kicking them, while not in the class of violence of really nasty authoritarian regimes, simply cannot play in Western society.

    I understand that they may believe that the stakes are high enough and the chance of beating the separatists into submission good enough that they think this approach is winnable.

    But is that who they truly want to be? Do they truly believe that democracy can only mean upholding, by force if necessary, a Constitution that expressly prohibits some forms of democratic expression that would otherwise seem perfectly legitimate?

    Or are thus just simply cynical and incompetent politicians?

    Genuine question, asked from a position of both ignorance of and indifference to the Catalonia/Spain issue.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 25,063

    she would stand aside on health grounds.


    Bad cough?

    Racism against people with coughs!
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 4,277
    If it is true that Theresa May was keen to depart on June 9th following the election but was talked of so doing 'for the good of the party', it is a bit unfair to push her out now!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 57,213
    edited October 4
    Jonathan said:

    Richard Nabavi was on the money, she should do a Supermac

    More info reqd.
    By the summer of 1963 Conservative Party Chairman Lord Poole was urging the ageing Macmillan to retire.[173] The full Denning report into the Profumo Scandal was published on 26 September 1963.[180]

    Macmillan had a meeting with Butler on 11 September and was careful to keep his options open (retire now, retire in the New Year, or fight the next election). He talked the matter over with his son Maurice and other senior ministers. Over lunch with Lord Swinton on 30 September he favoured stepping down, but only if Hailsham could be shoehorned in as his successor. He saw Butler on the morning of 7 October and told him he planned to stay on lead the Conservatives into the next General Election, then was struck down by prostate problems on the night of 7–8 October, on the eve of the Conservative Party conference.[181][182]

    Macmillan was operated on at 11.30am on Thursday 10 October. Although it is sometimes stated that he believed himself to have inoperable prostate cancer, he in fact knew it was benign before the operation.

    Macmillan was almost ready to leave hospital within ten days of the diagnosis and could easily have carried on, in the opinion of his doctor Sir John Richardson. His illness gave him a way out.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Macmillan#Resignation
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 1,815

    Richard Nabavi was on the money, she should do a Supermac

    @ TSE

    Clearly, yer man Cameron is the one to blame for the state of your party, and the Nation. Rightly or wrongly, he instigated the Referendum and then threw the towel in as soon as he could, despite his words that he'd stay on for a bit. If he'd hung around, maybe yer other man Osborne might have been in with a chance? Mind you, I can't blame him. He's got a hot wife, loads of money and a lifestyle not many of us will ever have. Why would he hang around to sort the mess out?


    Edit-FIRST!

    1) It was honour, he said if you lose a nation changing referendum like that, you should quit

    2) He realised he would have been seen as the wrong man to sort out the Brexit deal

    3) If he has decided to stay on, the Leadbangers would have tried to force him out, so it wasn't up to him, which would have impacted on 2)
    If Cameron had stayed on as leader the party would have been even less united behind him than it is behind May. As one of the EU leaders has pointed out, Brexit is an internal Tory party squabble that has got out of control.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 8,726
    Today's use of 'You've Got The Love' at the Conservative party conference was not approved by us nor would it have been had they asked. - florence welch
  • @ TSE

    Clearly, yer man Cameron is the one to blame for the state of your party, and the Nation. Rightly or wrongly, he instigated the Referendum and then threw the towel in as soon as he could, despite his words that he'd stay on for a bit. If he'd hung around, maybe yer other man Osborne might have been in with a chance? Mind you, I can't blame him. He's got a hot wife, loads of money and a lifestyle not many of us will ever have. Why would he hang around to sort the mess out?


    Edit-FIRST!

    1) It was honour, he said if you lose a nation changing referendum like that, you should quit

    2) He realised he would have been seen as the wrong man to sort out the Brexit deal

    3) If he has decided to stay on, the Leadbangers would have tried to force him out, so it wasn't up to him, which would have impacted on 2)
    Feck his honour. If he'd stayed on, and Leadsom had mounted a charge, maybe it would all have come crashing down 2 years earlier, before Article 50 was invoked. Instead, it's all unravelling now with the clock ticking. Bunch of arseholes, the lot of 'em.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 6,999

    Jonathan said:

    Richard Nabavi was on the money, she should do a Supermac

    More info reqd.
    By the summer of 1963 Conservative Party Chairman Lord Poole was urging the ageing Macmillan to retire.[173] The full Denning report into the Profumo Scandal was published on 26 September 1963.[180]

    Macmillan had a meeting with Butler on 11 September and was careful to keep his options open (retire now, retire in the New Year, or fight the next election). He talked the matter over with his son Maurice and other senior ministers. Over lunch with Lord Swinton on 30 September he favoured stepping down, but only if Hailsham could be shoehorned in as his successor. He saw Butler on the morning of 7 October and told him he planned to stay on lead the Conservatives into the next General Election, then was struck down by prostate problems on the night of 7–8 October, on the eve of the Conservative Party conference.[181][182]

    Macmillan was operated on at 11.30am on Thursday 10 October. Although it is sometimes stated that he believed himself to have inoperable prostate cancer, he in fact knew it was benign before the operation.

    Macmillan was almost ready to leave hospital within ten days of the diagnosis and could easily have carried on, in the opinion of his doctor Sir John Richardson. His illness gave him a way out.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Macmillan#Resignation
    Thanks. Would love May to claim prostate trouble and use it as a way out.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 8,726

    she would stand aside on health grounds.


    Bad cough?

    Racism against people with coughs!
    Arent you banned?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 25,063
    JonathanD said:

    Richard Nabavi was on the money, she should do a Supermac

    @ TSE

    Clearly, yer man Cameron is the one to blame for the state of your party, and the Nation. Rightly or wrongly, he instigated the Referendum and then threw the towel in as soon as he could, despite his words that he'd stay on for a bit. If he'd hung around, maybe yer other man Osborne might have been in with a chance? Mind you, I can't blame him. He's got a hot wife, loads of money and a lifestyle not many of us will ever have. Why would he hang around to sort the mess out?


    Edit-FIRST!

    1) It was honour, he said if you lose a nation changing referendum like that, you should quit

    2) He realised he would have been seen as the wrong man to sort out the Brexit deal

    3) If he has decided to stay on, the Leadbangers would have tried to force him out, so it wasn't up to him, which would have impacted on 2)
    If Cameron had stayed on as leader the party would have been even less united behind him than it is behind May. As one of the EU leaders has pointed out, Brexit is an internal Tory party squabble that has got out of control.
    An internal party squabble that involved more than 33 million voters?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 25,063

    Today's use of 'You've Got The Love' at the Conservative party conference was not approved by us nor would it have been had they asked. - florence welch

    "You've got the Gove", surely :lol:
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 8,726
    Lets not forget

    Theresa May made 2 policy promises today.

    a) Build 5 homes a yr per Local Authority.

    b) Resurrect an Energy Cap promise she's failed to keep
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 25,063
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Richard Nabavi was on the money, she should do a Supermac

    More info reqd.
    By the summer of 1963 Conservative Party Chairman Lord Poole was urging the ageing Macmillan to retire.[173] The full Denning report into the Profumo Scandal was published on 26 September 1963.[180]

    Macmillan had a meeting with Butler on 11 September and was careful to keep his options open (retire now, retire in the New Year, or fight the next election). He talked the matter over with his son Maurice and other senior ministers. Over lunch with Lord Swinton on 30 September he favoured stepping down, but only if Hailsham could be shoehorned in as his successor. He saw Butler on the morning of 7 October and told him he planned to stay on lead the Conservatives into the next General Election, then was struck down by prostate problems on the night of 7–8 October, on the eve of the Conservative Party conference.[181][182]

    Macmillan was operated on at 11.30am on Thursday 10 October. Although it is sometimes stated that he believed himself to have inoperable prostate cancer, he in fact knew it was benign before the operation.

    Macmillan was almost ready to leave hospital within ten days of the diagnosis and could easily have carried on, in the opinion of his doctor Sir John Richardson. His illness gave him a way out.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Macmillan#Resignation
    Thanks. Would love May to claim prostate trouble and use it as a way out.
    Who will she prostrate in front of? :lol:

    (I thank you!)
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 12,855
    Jonathan said:

    Richard Nabavi was on the money, she should do a Supermac

    More info reqd.
    Retire on the grounds of ill health
  • Lets not forget

    Theresa May made 2 policy promises today.

    a) Build 5 homes a yr per Local Authority.

    b) Resurrect an Energy Cap promise she's failed to keep

    And the donor opt out change.
  • WinstanleyWinstanley Posts: 250

    JonathanD said:

    Richard Nabavi was on the money, she should do a Supermac

    @ TSE

    Clearly, yer man Cameron is the one to blame for the state of your party, and the Nation. Rightly or wrongly, he instigated the Referendum and then threw the towel in as soon as he could, despite his words that he'd stay on for a bit. If he'd hung around, maybe yer other man Osborne might have been in with a chance? Mind you, I can't blame him. He's got a hot wife, loads of money and a lifestyle not many of us will ever have. Why would he hang around to sort the mess out?


    Edit-FIRST!

    1) It was honour, he said if you lose a nation changing referendum like that, you should quit

    2) He realised he would have been seen as the wrong man to sort out the Brexit deal

    3) If he has decided to stay on, the Leadbangers would have tried to force him out, so it wasn't up to him, which would have impacted on 2)
    If Cameron had stayed on as leader the party would have been even less united behind him than it is behind May. As one of the EU leaders has pointed out, Brexit is an internal Tory party squabble that has got out of control.
    An internal party squabble that involved more than 33 million voters?
    The road to the referendum was Cameron playing internal party politics. Then it grew beyond his ability to contain it.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 22,424

    Lets not forget

    Theresa May made 2 policy promises today.

    a) Build 5 homes a yr per Local Authority.

    b) Resurrect an Energy Cap promise she's failed to keep

    To be fair it is 5000 homes per year.

  • ElliotElliot Posts: 132

    @ TSE

    Clearly, yer man Cameron is the one to blame for the state of your party, and the Nation. Rightly or wrongly, he instigated the Referendum and then threw the towel in as soon as he could, despite his words that he'd stay on for a bit. If he'd hung around, maybe yer other man Osborne might have been in with a chance? Mind you, I can't blame him. He's got a hot wife, loads of money and a lifestyle not many of us will ever have. Why would he hang around to sort the mess out?


    Edit-FIRST!

    1) It was honour, he said if you lose a nation changing referendum like that, you should quit

    2) He realised he would have been seen as the wrong man to sort out the Brexit deal

    3) If he has decided to stay on, the Leadbangers would have tried to force him out, so it wasn't up to him, which would have impacted on 2)
    Feck his honour. If he'd stayed on, and Leadsom had mounted a charge, maybe it would all have come crashing down 2 years earlier, before Article 50 was invoked. Instead, it's all unravelling now with the clock ticking. Bunch of arseholes, the lot of 'em.
    This is why the Tories can't afford a leadership contest until Brexit is sorted. The general election can be blamed on May personally and the next leader would avoid blame. A leadership contest wasting time for negotiation would tarnish the whole party.

    They need to swallow the criticisms right now, get a Brexit deal, build a crap load of houses and then get a new young leader in that is still fresh for 2022. It's their only hope.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 1,815

    Lets not forget

    Theresa May made 2 policy promises today.

    a) Build 5 homes a yr per Local Authority.

    b) Resurrect an Energy Cap promise she's failed to keep

    To be fair it is 5000 homes per year.

    Corbyn: A man who doesn't understand council houses aren't the only type of affordable housing. Truely the man is thick.
  • @ TSE

    Clearly, yer man Cameron is the one to blame for the state of your party, and the Nation. Rightly or wrongly, he instigated the Referendum and then threw the towel in as soon as he could, despite his words that he'd stay on for a bit. If he'd hung around, maybe yer other man Osborne might have been in with a chance? Mind you, I can't blame him. He's got a hot wife, loads of money and a lifestyle not many of us will ever have. Why would he hang around to sort the mess out?


    Edit-FIRST!

    1) It was honour, he said if you lose a nation changing referendum like that, you should quit

    2) He realised he would have been seen as the wrong man to sort out the Brexit deal

    3) If he has decided to stay on, the Leadbangers would have tried to force him out, so it wasn't up to him, which would have impacted on 2)
    Feck his honour. If he'd stayed on, and Leadsom had mounted a charge, maybe it would all have come crashing down 2 years earlier, before Article 50 was invoked. Instead, it's all unravelling now with the clock ticking. Bunch of arseholes, the lot of 'em.
    Three was the more insurmountable problem.

    When I found out Cameron was about to resign, I did tell one of his staff

    'At the end of his resignation speech, oh and I've triggered article 50'

    A bit like the end of Watchmen.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 379

    @ TSE

    Clearly, yer man Cameron is the one to blame for the state of your party, and the Nation. Rightly or wrongly, he instigated the Referendum and then threw the towel in as soon as he could, despite his words that he'd stay on for a bit. If he'd hung around, maybe yer other man Osborne might have been in with a chance? Mind you, I can't blame him. He's got a hot wife, loads of money and a lifestyle not many of us will ever have. Why would he hang around to sort the mess out?


    Edit-FIRST!

    1) It was honour, he said if you lose a nation changing referendum like that, you should quit

    2) He realised he would have been seen as the wrong man to sort out the Brexit deal

    3) If he has decided to stay on, the Leadbangers would have tried to force him out, so it wasn't up to him, which would have impacted on 2)
    Feck his honour. If he'd stayed on, and Leadsom had mounted a charge, maybe it would all have come crashing down 2 years earlier, before Article 50 was invoked. Instead, it's all unravelling now with the clock ticking. Bunch of arseholes, the lot of 'em.
    I agree again. Cameron has no honour, he is just like Blair now he has left office - It is all about raking in the cash! Cameron made arguably a bigger mess than he inherited from Brown. Brown created an economical mess, where as Cameron created a political, constitutional and an economic mess which is heading towards us now. I wish I had never voted for the Tories in 2015 as Ed Miliband would have proved a far more stable hand on the tiller than Cameron post coalition in 2015, or May currently and I dread to think of the mess Corbyn might make.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 25,063

    she would stand aside on health grounds.


    Bad cough?

    Racism against people with coughs!
    Arent you banned?
    Um, it was just some big text I "accidentally" posted triggering the Spam-trap. Pay it no mind :)
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 22,424
    JonathanD said:

    Lets not forget

    Theresa May made 2 policy promises today.

    a) Build 5 homes a yr per Local Authority.

    b) Resurrect an Energy Cap promise she's failed to keep

    To be fair it is 5000 homes per year.

    Corbyn: A man who doesn't understand council houses aren't the only type of affordable housing. Truely the man is thick.
    In the article theCon spokesperson agreed the figures, but said they would be frontloaded.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 6,999
    A leadership content soon is almost inevitable. A PM without confidence is simply untenable. It's not just the party, it's the country. Anyone wanting to do business with us, must think it's a waste of time talking to May.

    I've seen no viable plan for her to rebuild her position, an almost impossible task. Sane Tories should be looking for a caretaker.

  • Been out all day. Missed much?
  • nielhnielh Posts: 663

    @ TSE

    Clearly, yer man Cameron is the one to blame for the state of your party, and the Nation. Rightly or wrongly, he instigated the Referendum and then threw the towel in as soon as he could, despite his words that he'd stay on for a bit. If he'd hung around, maybe yer other man Osborne might have been in with a chance? Mind you, I can't blame him. He's got a hot wife, loads of money and a lifestyle not many of us will ever have. Why would he hang around to sort the mess out?


    Edit-FIRST!

    1) It was honour, he said if you lose a nation changing referendum like that, you should quit

    2) He realised he would have been seen as the wrong man to sort out the Brexit deal

    3) If he has decided to stay on, the Leadbangers would have tried to force him out, so it wasn't up to him, which would have impacted on 2)
    Feck his honour. If he'd stayed on, and Leadsom had mounted a charge, maybe it would all have come crashing down 2 years earlier, before Article 50 was invoked. Instead, it's all unravelling now with the clock ticking. Bunch of arseholes, the lot of 'em.
    He did the right thing in stepping down. He would have been discredited immediately by the beleavers, ie within days.

    In my view, his historic error was to go for the 'simple in out referendum'. He should never have given people the option of voting for 'leave - no plan'.

    I have no doubt that it is tormenting him now. No other explanation for his sudden departure from Parliament, and retreat from public life. He is ruined, as it is ruining May, and will probably ruin the next person as well (Boris?)

  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,458
    JonathanD said:

    Richard Nabavi was on the money, she should do a Supermac

    @ TSE

    Clearly, yer man Cameron is the one to blame for the state of your party, and the Nation. Rightly or wrongly, he instigated the Referendum and then threw the towel in as soon as he could, despite his words that he'd stay on for a bit. If he'd hung around, maybe yer other man Osborne might have been in with a chance? Mind you, I can't blame him. He's got a hot wife, loads of money and a lifestyle not many of us will ever have. Why would he hang around to sort the mess out?


    Edit-FIRST!

    1) It was honour, he said if you lose a nation changing referendum like that, you should quit

    2) He realised he would have been seen as the wrong man to sort out the Brexit deal

    3) If he has decided to stay on, the Leadbangers would have tried to force him out, so it wasn't up to him, which would have impacted on 2)
    If Cameron had stayed on as leader the party would have been even less united behind him than it is behind May. As one of the EU leaders has pointed out, Brexit is an internal Tory party squabble that has got out of control.
    This 'Brexit is just a Tory squabble' meme has worn pretty thin now. I realise it's easier for Remoaners to pretend that than face up to the truth, but it's tedious nonsense.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 14,698
    Jonathan said:


    I've seen no viable plan for her to rebuild her position, an almost impossible task. Sane Tories should be looking for a caretaker.

    They need an undertaker. Someone who can bury Brexit.
  • nielhnielh Posts: 663

    Lets not forget

    Theresa May made 2 policy promises today.

    a) Build 5 homes a yr per Local Authority.

    b) Resurrect an Energy Cap promise she's failed to keep

    To be fair it is 5000 homes per year.

    Its an almost meaningless policy. It is pathetic given the challenge posed by this policy area.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 14,319
    edited October 4
    Sorry I couldn't be at Conference, but I had a more pressing prior engagement - to watch otters and eagles in the Outer Hebrides. Been out in the wilds all day. Was Theresa's speech really that cringe-making?

    (PS for those interested: tally was 2 otters, 1 White-tailed Eagle, 5 Golden Eagles, 1 Merlin, 1 Hen Harrier, 1 (dead) Leatherback Turtle.)
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 25,063

    Sorry I couldn't be at Conference, but I had a more pressing prior engagement - to watch otters and eagles in the Outer Hebrides. Been out in the wilds all day. Was Theresa's speech really that cringe-making?

    (PS for those interested: tally was 2 otters, 1 White-tailed Eagle, 5 Golden Eagles, 1 Merlin, 1 Hen Harrier, 1 (dead) Leatherback Turtle.)

    Um, I saw tons of deer, and a kestrel and 2 green woodpeckers at Richmond Park yesterday
  • GoupillonGoupillon Posts: 67
    I have just enjoyed listening to Dame Judi backed by the BBC Symphony Orchestra's beautiful version of "Send in the Clowns" It also could be a very appropriate dedication to Boris and Theresa on the culmination of the disastrous Tory Party conference.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 25,063

    @ TSE

    Clearly, yer man Cameron is the one to blame for the state of your party, and the Nation. Rightly or wrongly, he instigated the Referendum and then threw the towel in as soon as he could, despite his words that he'd stay on for a bit. If he'd hung around, maybe yer other man Osborne might have been in with a chance? Mind you, I can't blame him. He's got a hot wife, loads of money and a lifestyle not many of us will ever have. Why would he hang around to sort the mess out?


    Edit-FIRST!

    1) It was honour, he said if you lose a nation changing referendum like that, you should quit

    2) He realised he would have been seen as the wrong man to sort out the Brexit deal

    3) If he has decided to stay on, the Leadbangers would have tried to force him out, so it wasn't up to him, which would have impacted on 2)
    Feck his honour. If he'd stayed on, and Leadsom had mounted a charge, maybe it would all have come crashing down 2 years earlier, before Article 50 was invoked. Instead, it's all unravelling now with the clock ticking. Bunch of arseholes, the lot of 'em.
    Three was the more insurmountable problem.

    When I found out Cameron was about to resign, I did tell one of his staff

    'At the end of his resignation speech, oh and I've triggered article 50'

    A bit like the end of Watchmen.
    Watchmen is a good movie.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 22,424

    Sorry I couldn't be at Conference, but I had a more pressing prior engagement - to watch otters and eagles in the Outer Hebrides. Been out in the wilds all day. Was Theresa's speech really that cringe-making?

    (PS for those interested: tally was 2 otters, 1 White-tailed Eagle, 5 Golden Eagles, 1 Merlin, 1 Hen Harrier, 1 (dead) Leatherback Turtle.)

    I have just watched it on iplayer.

    It was pretty painful to watch. She will not be headlining again I am sure.

    I think she will be gone by Christmas.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 6,999
    Gove.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 1,904
    Evening folks.

    Wouldn't wish the cough on anyone, but the letters falling was just priceless. Think the delegates at Corbynfest enjoyed themselves rather more than the ones at Mayday?
  • Iain Martin,saying May must go. The candidate must be who the party can rally around. No one wants Boris. Most the backbenchers are furious with him. He thinks a double act between Davis and Rudd. Wild cards include Dominc Raab or Rory Stewart. The phone lines are running hot and expect Boris to fight like a tiger to be on the final ballot, but he will struggle against MP's wishes.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 8,726

    Been out all day. Missed much?

    No
  • Been out all day. Missed much?

    I spent most of today wishing Theresa May had lost her seat in 2015 instead of Mark Reckless.
  • Been out all day. Missed much?

    No
    That's a relief.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 25,063

    Been out all day. Missed much?

    I spent most of today wishing Theresa May had lost her seat in 2015 instead of Mark Reckless.
    You want Mark Reckless to be PM??
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 6,999
    Gove.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 610
    There would be no better message to the electorate that tories put party before country if the indulge in a leadership election now. After triggering A59 before you had a plan, holding a vanity election why cant they knuckle down and get the job done.? If i was a hard brexiteer I'd force the election to increase the chances of dropping out to no deal which is to some people ( who I dont understand) is what they want
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 6,999

    Been out all day. Missed much?

    I spent most of today wishing Theresa May had lost her seat in 2015 instead of Mark Reckless.
    Surely that's crossing the line.
  • Jonathan said:

    Been out all day. Missed much?

    I spent most of today wishing Theresa May had lost her seat in 2015 instead of Mark Reckless.
    Surely that's crossing the line.
    I reckon TPD winning his seat in 2015 would have caused less damage for the Tory party than Mrs May did today.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 8,726

    Been out all day. Missed much?

    I spent most of today wishing Theresa May had lost her seat in 2015 instead of Mark Reckless.
    You TPD you
  • Been out all day. Missed much?

    I spent most of today wishing Theresa May had lost her seat in 2015 instead of Mark Reckless.
    You TPD you
    I don't want him to be PM.

    May loses her seat in 2015, and Hammond or Fallon become PM in 2016 and we would have been spared the disaster of May.
  • nielhnielh Posts: 663
    The Iain Martin Article is quite persuasive

    https://reaction.life/may-must-go/

    "feeling sorry for leaders and keeping them on out of sympathy is not, generally, a practical way to proceed when it comes to running a proper country. Especially when the country is with Brexit going through its largest peacetime undertaking in living memory.

    Theresa May should be spared any more stress. It is over. Her public service in the spotlight is at an end and before it comes any creepier – a bunch of men keeping her in place propped up – her husband needs to intervene as he did so powerfully at the conclusion of the nightmare speech."

    I also agree that David Davis is a credible unifying candidate.
  • Swamp the drain isn't it?

    Ivanka and Donald Trump Jr. Were Close to Being Charged With Felony Fraud

    New York prosecutors were preparing a case. Then the D.A. overruled his staff after a visit from a top donor: Trump attorney Marc Kasowitz.

    https://www.propublica.org/article/ivanka-donald-trump-jr-close-to-being-charged-felony-fraud
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 6,999
    edited October 4

    Jonathan said:

    Been out all day. Missed much?

    I spent most of today wishing Theresa May had lost her seat in 2015 instead of Mark Reckless.
    Surely that's crossing the line.
    I reckon TPD winning his seat in 2015 would have caused less damage for the Tory party than Mrs May did today.
    Cameron winning a majority by massacring his coalition partner and promising a referendum damaged the Tory party.

    Just imagine a nice minority with C&S from nice Mr Clegg facing the even nicer Mr Milliband.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 25,063

    Jonathan said:

    Been out all day. Missed much?

    I spent most of today wishing Theresa May had lost her seat in 2015 instead of Mark Reckless.
    Surely that's crossing the line.
    I reckon TPD winning his seat in 2015 would have caused less damage for the Tory party than Mrs May did today.
    How marginal is Maidenhead?
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Been out all day. Missed much?

    I spent most of today wishing Theresa May had lost her seat in 2015 instead of Mark Reckless.
    Surely that's crossing the line.
    I reckon TPD winning his seat in 2015 would have caused less damage for the Tory party than Mrs May did today.
    Cameron winning a majority by massacring his coalition partner and promising a referendum damaged the Tory party.

    Just imagine a nice minority with C&S from nice Mr Clegg facing the even nicer Mr Milliband.
    The issue of our relationship with the EU was coming, it just happened on Cameron's watch.

    This could have all been avoided if Blair and Brown had delivered on their promise of a referendum on Lisbon.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 4,267
    Over 3-1 that she goes this year on Betfair.

    Illiquid market but you can bet £100 at 4.1 if anyone wants to.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 6,999
    edited October 4

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Been out all day. Missed much?

    I spent most of today wishing Theresa May had lost her seat in 2015 instead of Mark Reckless.
    Surely that's crossing the line.
    I reckon TPD winning his seat in 2015 would have caused less damage for the Tory party than Mrs May did today.
    Cameron winning a majority by massacring his coalition partner and promising a referendum damaged the Tory party.

    Just imagine a nice minority with C&S from nice Mr Clegg facing the even nicer Mr Milliband.
    The issue of our relationship with the EU was coming, it just happened on Cameron's watch.

    This could have all been avoided if Blair and Brown had delivered on their promise of a referendum on Lisbon.
    They were much cleverer than both Cameron and May. Anyway Euroscepticism started with Major and Maastricht.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 6,999

    Jonathan said:

    Been out all day. Missed much?

    I spent most of today wishing Theresa May had lost her seat in 2015 instead of Mark Reckless.
    Surely that's crossing the line.
    I reckon TPD winning his seat in 2015 would have caused less damage for the Tory party than Mrs May did today.
    How marginal is Maidenhead?
    After today?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 25,063

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Been out all day. Missed much?

    I spent most of today wishing Theresa May had lost her seat in 2015 instead of Mark Reckless.
    Surely that's crossing the line.
    I reckon TPD winning his seat in 2015 would have caused less damage for the Tory party than Mrs May did today.
    Cameron winning a majority by massacring his coalition partner and promising a referendum damaged the Tory party.

    Just imagine a nice minority with C&S from nice Mr Clegg facing the even nicer Mr Milliband.
    The issue of our relationship with the EU was coming, it just happened on Cameron's watch.

    This could have all been avoided if Blair and Brown had delivered on their promise of a referendum on Lisbon.
    3-time election winner Blair?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 25,063
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Been out all day. Missed much?

    I spent most of today wishing Theresa May had lost her seat in 2015 instead of Mark Reckless.
    Surely that's crossing the line.
    I reckon TPD winning his seat in 2015 would have caused less damage for the Tory party than Mrs May did today.
    Cameron winning a majority by massacring his coalition partner and promising a referendum damaged the Tory party.

    Just imagine a nice minority with C&S from nice Mr Clegg facing the even nicer Mr Milliband.
    The issue of our relationship with the EU was coming, it just happened on Cameron's watch.

    This could have all been avoided if Blair and Brown had delivered on their promise of a referendum on Lisbon.
    They were much cleverer than both Cameron and May. Anyway Euroscepticism started with Major and Maastricht.
    Nope, it started with Benn in the 1970s.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 8,429
    JonathanD said:

    Richard Nabavi was on the money, she should do a Supermac

    @ TSE

    Clearly, yer man Cameron is the one to blame for the state of your party, and the Nation. Rightly or wrongly, he instigated the Referendum and then threw the towel in as soon as he could, despite his words that he'd stay on for a bit. If he'd hung around, maybe yer other man Osborne might have been in with a chance? Mind you, I can't blame him. He's got a hot wife, loads of money and a lifestyle not many of us will ever have. Why would he hang around to sort the mess out?


    Edit-FIRST!

    1) It was honour, he said if you lose a nation changing referendum like that, you should quit

    2) He realised he would have been seen as the wrong man to sort out the Brexit deal

    3) If he has decided to stay on, the Leadbangers would have tried to force him out, so it wasn't up to him, which would have impacted on 2)
    If Cameron had stayed on as leader the party would have been even less united behind him than it is behind May. As one of the EU leaders has pointed out, Brexit is an internal Tory party squabble that has got out of control.
    Whichever EU leader made that last statement is an idiot. It was the EU inserting itself into party politics in the UK - specifically Delors turning up at a Labour conference (or was it the TUC’s?) to tell delegates that the EU could help them impose laws which had been democratically rejected by the voting public at elections - which started the process of toxifying the EU and making it into a party political matter. A stupid move by the EU.

    Whatever you thought of the policies themselves, the EU showed a tin ear (not for the first or last time) for how this appeared: a way for losing parties to subvert the result of an election in a member state. Delors placed the EU Commission in a position where they were seen by the then Tory government as on the side of the Labour opposition. Hence the Bruges speech etc.

    Delors’ too clever for its own good action had consequences, the results of which we are seeing today.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Been out all day. Missed much?

    I spent most of today wishing Theresa May had lost her seat in 2015 instead of Mark Reckless.
    Surely that's crossing the line.
    I reckon TPD winning his seat in 2015 would have caused less damage for the Tory party than Mrs May did today.
    Cameron winning a majority by massacring his coalition partner and promising a referendum damaged the Tory party.

    Just imagine a nice minority with C&S from nice Mr Clegg facing the even nicer Mr Milliband.
    The issue of our relationship with the EU was coming, it just happened on Cameron's watch.

    This could have all been avoided if Blair and Brown had delivered on their promise of a referendum on Lisbon.
    They were much cleverer than both Cameron and May. Anyway Euroscepticism started with Major and Maastricht.
    Almost like you forgot which party called the 1975 referendum.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 6,999
    edited October 4

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Been out all day. Missed much?

    I spent most of today wishing Theresa May had lost her seat in 2015 instead of Mark Reckless.
    Surely that's crossing the line.
    I reckon TPD winning his seat in 2015 would have caused less damage for the Tory party than Mrs May did today.
    Cameron winning a majority by massacring his coalition partner and promising a referendum damaged the Tory party.

    Just imagine a nice minority with C&S from nice Mr Clegg facing the even nicer Mr Milliband.
    The issue of our relationship with the EU was coming, it just happened on Cameron's watch.

    This could have all been avoided if Blair and Brown had delivered on their promise of a referendum on Lisbon.
    They were much cleverer than both Cameron and May. Anyway Euroscepticism started with Major and Maastricht.
    Nope, it started with Benn in the 1970s.
    That strand of leftist Euroscepticism died and had no impact (maybe reviving since Brexit). No, this current omnishambles started with Maastricht. UKIP was founded in 1993.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 6,999

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Been out all day. Missed much?

    I spent most of today wishing Theresa May had lost her seat in 2015 instead of Mark Reckless.
    Surely that's crossing the line.
    I reckon TPD winning his seat in 2015 would have caused less damage for the Tory party than Mrs May did today.
    Cameron winning a majority by massacring his coalition partner and promising a referendum damaged the Tory party.

    Just imagine a nice minority with C&S from nice Mr Clegg facing the even nicer Mr Milliband.
    The issue of our relationship with the EU was coming, it just happened on Cameron's watch.

    This could have all been avoided if Blair and Brown had delivered on their promise of a referendum on Lisbon.
    They were much cleverer than both Cameron and May. Anyway Euroscepticism started with Major and Maastricht.
    Almost like you forgot which party called the 1975 referendum.
    Er, 'Remain' won that one with 67%. Maastricht is where the rot set in. Curiously, that vote led to the SDP. Wonder what we have in store from the last one.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Been out all day. Missed much?

    I spent most of today wishing Theresa May had lost her seat in 2015 instead of Mark Reckless.
    Surely that's crossing the line.
    I reckon TPD winning his seat in 2015 would have caused less damage for the Tory party than Mrs May did today.
    Cameron winning a majority by massacring his coalition partner and promising a referendum damaged the Tory party.

    Just imagine a nice minority with C&S from nice Mr Clegg facing the even nicer Mr Milliband.
    The issue of our relationship with the EU was coming, it just happened on Cameron's watch.

    This could have all been avoided if Blair and Brown had delivered on their promise of a referendum on Lisbon.
    They were much cleverer than both Cameron and May. Anyway Euroscepticism started with Major and Maastricht.
    Almost like you forgot which party called the 1975 referendum.
    Er, 'Remain' won that one with 67%. Maastricht is where the rot set in. Curiously, that vote led to the SDP. Wonder what we have in store from the last one.
    You also seem to forget Foot's manifesto of 1983.

    Isn't it odd that the UK only left the EU when Labour had as Leader a eurosceptic who sabotaged the Remain campaign.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 11,617
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Been out all day. Missed much?

    I spent most of today wishing Theresa May had lost her seat in 2015 instead of Mark Reckless.
    Surely that's crossing the line.
    I reckon TPD winning his seat in 2015 would have caused less damage for the Tory party than Mrs May did today.
    Cameron winning a majority by massacring his coalition partner and promising a referendum damaged the Tory party.

    Just imagine a nice minority with C&S from nice Mr Clegg facing the even nicer Mr Milliband.
    The issue of our relationship with the EU was coming, it just happened on Cameron's watch.

    This could have all been avoided if Blair and Brown had delivered on their promise of a referendum on Lisbon.
    They were much cleverer than both Cameron and May. Anyway Euroscepticism started with Major and Maastricht.
    Almost like you forgot which party called the 1975 referendum.
    Er, 'Remain' won that one with 67%. Maastricht is where the rot set in. Curiously, that vote led to the SDP. Wonder what we have in store from the last one.
    The rot set in when Delors openly sought to undermine democracy.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 8,429
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Been out all day. Missed much?

    I spent most of today wishing Theresa May had lost her seat in 2015 instead of Mark Reckless.
    Surely that's crossing the line.
    I reckon TPD winning his seat in 2015 would have caused less damage for the Tory party than Mrs May did today.
    Cameron winning a majority by massacring his coalition partner and promising a referendum damaged the Tory party.

    Just imagine a nice minority with C&S from nice Mr Clegg facing the even nicer Mr Milliband.
    The issue of our relationship with the EU was coming, it just happened on Cameron's watch.

    This could have all been avoided if Blair and Brown had delivered on their promise of a referendum on Lisbon.
    They were much cleverer than both Cameron and May. Anyway Euroscepticism started with Major and Maastricht.
    Nope, it started with Benn in the 1970s.
    That strand of leftist Euroscepticism died and had no impact (maybe reviving since Brexit). No, this current omnishambles started with Maastricht. UKIP was founded in 1993.
    No - Tory Euroscepticism started with Delors. See my earlier post.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 6,999
    edited October 4

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Been out all day. Missed much?

    I spent most of today wishing Theresa May had lost her seat in 2015 instead of Mark Reckless.
    Surely that's crossing the line.
    I reckon TPD winning his seat in 2015 would have caused less damage for the Tory party than Mrs May did today.
    Cameron winning a majority by massacring his coalition partner and promising a referendum damaged the Tory party.

    Just imagine a nice minority with C&S from nice Mr Clegg facing the even nicer Mr Milliband.
    The issue of our relationship with the EU was coming, it just happened on Cameron's watch.

    This could have all been avoided if Blair and Brown had delivered on their promise of a referendum on Lisbon.
    They were much cleverer than both Cameron and May. Anyway Euroscepticism started with Major and Maastricht.
    Almost like you forgot which party called the 1975 referendum.
    Er, 'Remain' won that one with 67%. Maastricht is where the rot set in. Curiously, that vote led to the SDP. Wonder what we have in store from the last one.
    You also seem to forget Foot's manifesto of 1983.

    Isn't it odd that the UK only left the EU when Labour had as Leader a eurosceptic who sabotaged the Remain campaign.
    I feel your pain today. Rather than dwelling on past failure, use your influence to find that sane caretaker.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 6,999
    Cyclefree said:



    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Been out all day. Missed much?

    I spent most of today wishing Theresa May had lost her seat in 2015 instead of Mark Reckless.
    Surely that's crossing the line.
    I reckon TPD winning his seat in 2015 would have caused less damage for the Tory party than Mrs May did today.
    Cameron winning a majority by massacring his coalition partner and promising a referendum damaged the Tory party.

    Just imagine a nice minority with C&S from nice Mr Clegg facing the even nicer Mr Milliband.
    The issue of our relationship with the EU was coming, it just happened on Cameron's watch.

    This could have all been avoided if Blair and Brown had delivered on their promise of a referendum on Lisbon.
    They were much cleverer than both Cameron and May. Anyway Euroscepticism started with Major and Maastricht.
    Nope, it started with Benn in the 1970s.
    That strand of leftist Euroscepticism died and had no impact (maybe reviving since Brexit). No, this current omnishambles started with Maastricht. UKIP was founded in 1993.
    No - Tory Euroscepticism started with Delors. See my earlier post.
    So maastricht then. Good we agree.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 1,603
    edited October 4
    Before:

    Is it me, or is that wording on the wall behind speakers at the Tory conference wonky?
    image

    After:
    image

    Oops:
    image

    For what it's worth, if May falls, I am going to claim my small part in her downfall...

    After my post about the wonky Tory conference sign, someone obviously took notice and aligned things up properly. Unfortunately, they came up against a fundamental law of nature: blu-tack only sticks reliably the first time.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 8,429

    Jonathan said:


    I've seen no viable plan for her to rebuild her position, an almost impossible task. Sane Tories should be looking for a caretaker.

    They need an undertaker. Someone who can bury Brexit.
    The only way that could be done is to have another GE where one of the parties openly campaigns to cancel Brexit and remain in the EU and wins. Is there such a party? Is it likely to win?

    Cancelling Brexit without getting democratic legitimacy for such a decision would create even more problems than it would solve.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 6,999
    edited October 4
    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:


    I've seen no viable plan for her to rebuild her position, an almost impossible task. Sane Tories should be looking for a caretaker.

    They need an undertaker. Someone who can bury Brexit.
    The only way that could be done is to have another GE where one of the parties openly campaigns to cancel Brexit and remain in the EU and wins. Is there such a party? Is it likely to win?

    Cancelling Brexit without getting democratic legitimacy for such a decision would create even more problems than it would solve.
    We are now screwed either way.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:


    I've seen no viable plan for her to rebuild her position, an almost impossible task. Sane Tories should be looking for a caretaker.

    They need an undertaker. Someone who can bury Brexit.
    The only way that could be done is to have another GE where one of the parties openly campaigns to cancel Brexit and remain in the EU and wins. Is there such a party? Is it likely to win?

    Cancelling Brexit without getting democratic legitimacy for such a decision would create even more problems than it would solve.
    Here's a thought.

    If we can cancel the 1940 general election to fix a calamitous mistake, why can't we do the same with Brexit?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 8,101

    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:


    I've seen no viable plan for her to rebuild her position, an almost impossible task. Sane Tories should be looking for a caretaker.

    They need an undertaker. Someone who can bury Brexit.
    The only way that could be done is to have another GE where one of the parties openly campaigns to cancel Brexit and remain in the EU and wins. Is there such a party? Is it likely to win?

    Cancelling Brexit without getting democratic legitimacy for such a decision would create even more problems than it would solve.
    Here's a thought.

    If we can cancel the 1940 general election to fix a calamitous mistake, why can't we do the same with Brexit?
    Erm, because it isn't an election?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 25,063
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Been out all day. Missed much?

    I spent most of today wishing Theresa May had lost her seat in 2015 instead of Mark Reckless.
    Surely that's crossing the line.
    I reckon TPD winning his seat in 2015 would have caused less damage for the Tory party than Mrs May did today.
    Cameron winning a majority by massacring his coalition partner and promising a referendum damaged the Tory party.

    Just imagine a nice minority with C&S from nice Mr Clegg facing the even nicer Mr Milliband.
    The issue of our relationship with the EU was coming, it just happened on Cameron's watch.

    This could have all been avoided if Blair and Brown had delivered on their promise of a referendum on Lisbon.
    They were much cleverer than both Cameron and May. Anyway Euroscepticism started with Major and Maastricht.
    Nope, it started with Benn in the 1970s.
    That strand of leftist Euroscepticism died and had no impact (maybe reviving since Brexit). No, this current omnishambles started with Maastricht. UKIP was founded in 1993.
    Labour campaigned to leave in 1983
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 8,429

    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:


    I've seen no viable plan for her to rebuild her position, an almost impossible task. Sane Tories should be looking for a caretaker.

    They need an undertaker. Someone who can bury Brexit.
    The only way that could be done is to have another GE where one of the parties openly campaigns to cancel Brexit and remain in the EU and wins. Is there such a party? Is it likely to win?

    Cancelling Brexit without getting democratic legitimacy for such a decision would create even more problems than it would solve.
    Here's a thought.

    If we can cancel the 1940 general election to fix a calamitous mistake, why can't we do the same with Brexit?
    We’re not at war.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 18,363
    It seems Catalonia's government will declare independence on Monday.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 8,101
    O/T - has anyone seen Occupied?

    Really interesting for those of us who like a bit of political geekery/box set ism!
  • felixfelix Posts: 6,668
    MTimT said:

    I am genuinely intrigued by Rajoy's and the King's position on Catalonia. I presume they are both smart enough to understand that:

    1. democracy and self-determination are very much flip sides of the same coin. The difference is simply a matter of scale.
    2. democracy without some form of protection of minorities is not democracy but tyranny of the masses
    3. regardless of constitutional law, preventing legitimate, non-violent expression of popular feelings, particularly when it represents a plurality or a majority of feeling within a particular well-defined geographical and cultural region, creates a pressure-cooker build up of steam which, unless carefully let off, inevitably will lead to violent explosion at some future point
    4. masked armoured men dressed all in black hitting women, children and the elderly with rubber batons, pulling them by the hair and kicking them, while not in the class of violence of really nasty authoritarian regimes, simply cannot play in Western society.

    I understand that they may believe that the stakes are high enough and the chance of beating the separatists into submission good enough that they think this approach is winnable.

    But is that who they truly want to be? Do they truly believe that democracy can only mean upholding, by force if necessary, a Constitution that expressly prohibits some forms of democratic expression that would otherwise seem perfectly legitimate?

    Or are thus just simply cynical and incompetent politicians?

    Genuine question, asked from a position of both ignorance of and indifference to the Catalonia/Spain issue.

    All the polling evidence is that there is not a majority in Catalonia for UDI.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 1,904
    God I love Marina Hyde:

    "But before we go on: the science bit. Last year, the Tories were bedding in for a good 15 years of uninterrupted rule; this year, they were coming to terms with the fact that the bed had been shat."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/04/boris-lion-king-to-theresa-may-p45-malarial-week-tory-conference?CMP=share_btn_tw
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 8,650
    Sean_F said:

    It seems Catalonia's government will declare independence on Monday.

    Perhaps an armoured division will be spending the weekend enjoying the views of the Mediterranean.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 8,429
    Sean_F said:

    It seems Catalonia's government will declare independence on Monday.

    Then what?

  • justin124justin124 Posts: 4,277

    Jonathan said:

    Been out all day. Missed much?

    I spent most of today wishing Theresa May had lost her seat in 2015 instead of Mark Reckless.
    Surely that's crossing the line.
    I reckon TPD winning his seat in 2015 would have caused less damage for the Tory party than Mrs May did today.
    How marginal is Maidenhead?
    It was a serious LibDem target back in 2005 - part of their Decapitation Plan!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,021
    It is surely inevitable that May goes, and goes soon ?

    The previous rationale for keeping her - muddle through Brexit, saddle her with the negatives, and engineer a fresh leader before the next election - is clearly a busted flush. First, it doesn't look as though she can last that long, and second it would mean another year of drift given the utter lack of any new policy.
    More than anything, the sheer vacuity of her speech is what will doom her. The obvious exhaustion just provides a decent excuse.

    The only way the Tories can change the narrative is actually to govern well and make a difference (however unlikely that might sound), and doing so takes a full term.
    If one of those with ambitions doesn't make their move now, they are pretty well doomed to defeat at the next election anyway. Taking responsibility for Brexit is going to be a tough enough proposition without also having a year or two of aimless drift on domestic policy.
  • dodradedodrade Posts: 169
    Isn't this rather an overreaction to a cold?

    Feels like a Harriet Jones moment.
  • felixfelix Posts: 6,668
    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    It seems Catalonia's government will declare independence on Monday.

    Then what?

    Then nothing. Any declaration would have the same force in law as the 'referendum'. There remains a majority in the region which wants to stay with Spain.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 18,363
    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    It seems Catalonia's government will declare independence on Monday.

    Then what?

    I expect the Spanish government will impose direct rule.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 1,206
    edited October 4
    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    It seems Catalonia's government will declare independence on Monday.

    Then what?

    I imagine they’ll be arrested before they get the chance, and direct rule imposed.
This discussion has been closed.