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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Not quite the Thursday newspaper headlines that Team TMay had

SystemSystem Posts: 3,967
edited October 5 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Not quite the Thursday newspaper headlines that Team TMay had planned

Brutal. pic.twitter.com/wh9C6lVb2C

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Comments

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,375
    Oh god not more of this. Its too cruel.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 17,829
    DavidL said:

    Oh god not more of this. Its too cruel.

    I know. Forcing us to read the same header over and over again!
  • She should have listened to me and she wouldn’t be in this mess.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 4,176
    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    Oh god not more of this. Its too cruel.

    I know. Forcing us to read the same header over and over again!
    Unfortunately it is the big story
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 1,840
    While the only alternatives are Boris or Corbyn, she has to continue.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 4,176

    While the only alternatives are Boris or Corbyn, she has to continue.

    There are more alternatives. It is questionable whether if there was a contest that Boris would make it to the final members' ballot
  • Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    Oh god not more of this. Its too cruel.

    I know. Forcing us to read the same header over and over again!
    Unfortunately it is the big story
    Nobody complained when you used to do similar threads on Gordon Brown ?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,364
    edited October 5
    In the context of leadership contests, this data may well be useful:

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 39,546
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: rumour on the BBC that Verstappen's halfway to signing for Mercedes in 2019.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,362
    edited October 5

    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    Oh god not more of this. Its too cruel.

    I know. Forcing us to read the same header over and over again!
    Unfortunately it is the big story
    Nobody complained when you used to do similar threads on Gordon Brown ?
    Gordon Brown never sunk quite this low, perhaps til bigoted woman gate right at the very end. His speeches were an asset.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,362

    While the only alternatives are Boris or Corbyn, she has to continue.

    There are more alternatives. It is questionable whether if there was a contest that Boris would make it to the final members' ballot
    It has been weird how the Tories have been in denial about May. This was not a surprise to anyone outside the blue tent
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,375

    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    Oh god not more of this. Its too cruel.

    I know. Forcing us to read the same header over and over again!
    Unfortunately it is the big story
    The Guardian piece linked to on the last thread was truly excellent. "Two drunks fighting in a puddle" . The lack of insight in each party behind the writer's pertinent question, "why are we not murdering this lot?" was painfully exposed.

    Heath and the latter day Wilson wasn't a great choice in 74 but it was better than this. An increasingly demented Thatcher or Kinnock in 87 wasn't great either. But its not easy to think of a time when our leadership choices were so totally inadequate.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,106
    Someone finish her off please.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 24,907
    It's hard to see how this is survivable for May. It's a matter of when, not if. And then the Tories' next gift to a grateful nation is Boris!!! That Corbyn firewall will not be there forever. It's hard to escape the conclusion that once he goes the Tories are looking at a very long time out of power.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 24,907
    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    Oh god not more of this. Its too cruel.

    I know. Forcing us to read the same header over and over again!
    Unfortunately it is the big story
    The Guardian piece linked to on the last thread was truly excellent. "Two drunks fighting in a puddle" . The lack of insight in each party behind the writer's pertinent question, "why are we not murdering this lot?" was painfully exposed.

    Heath and the latter day Wilson wasn't a great choice in 74 but it was better than this. An increasingly demented Thatcher or Kinnock in 87 wasn't great either. But its not easy to think of a time when our leadership choices were so totally inadequate.

    I don't quite rememver 1974, but I remember everything since 1979. This is easily the worst government and worst opposition combination I have lived through. The absolutedeadening mediocrity of both front benches is stunning. At least Labour can say that Corbyn refuses to pick from the full range of possibilities. But what on earth is May's excuse?

  • It's back!
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,362

    It's hard to see how this is survivable for May. It's a matter of when, not if. And then the Tories' next gift to a grateful nation is Boris!!! That Corbyn firewall will not be there forever. It's hard to escape the conclusion that once he goes the Tories are looking at a very long time out of power.

    It's been a matter of when not if since she lost the majority. The force that keeps her in office ( the power went long ago) is the fear of what follows.

    Sensible Tories need to find candidates that can win the MP ballot and be acceptable to their dwindling members.
  • eekeek Posts: 1,913
    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    Oh god not more of this. Its too cruel.

    I know. Forcing us to read the same header over and over again!
    Unfortunately it is the big story
    The Guardian piece linked to on the last thread was truly excellent. "Two drunks fighting in a puddle" . The lack of insight in each party behind the writer's pertinent question, "why are we not murdering this lot?" was painfully exposed.

    Heath and the latter day Wilson wasn't a great choice in 74 but it was better than this. An increasingly demented Thatcher or Kinnock in 87 wasn't great either. But its not easy to think of a time when our leadership choices were so totally inadequate.
    24 hour news killed politics for a lot of potential people. As others continually say there is more (potentially a lot more) money for far less hassle elsewhere...
  • It's hard to see how this is survivable for May. It's a matter of when, not if. And then the Tories' next gift to a grateful nation is Boris!!! That Corbyn firewall will not be there forever. It's hard to escape the conclusion that once he goes the Tories are looking at a very long time out of power.

    All those Labour ex-MPs who stood down as power was gone for Labour until 2030....

    funny old world
  • YellowSubmarineYellowSubmarine Posts: 2,409
    The irony is the text of the speech wasn't bad. https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2017/10/renewing-the-british-dream-mays-speech-in-full.html

    Wasn't bad in the sense it tried to put parsecs between May and her rabid 9 months between " Citizens of Nowhere " and *that* campaign. It's a largely sunny, Cameroonian speech from someone who was a Cameron before Cameron. Books will be written for decades on how an arch moderniser destroyed her Premiership with the sort of rabid culture war lurch she'd spent her previous career fighting against. It's ok inexplicable to date.

    Also worth noting the only serving political name checked in the text. Ruth Davidson. Just as she was the only one name checked by Blair in his latest magisterial piece. Davidson really is the Designated Survivor of centrism fated to emerge from the bunker after all this is over in 5 years or so.

    Also note the two odd mentions of Osborne in the speech. Was she planning on bringing him back Mandelson style ? Too late now. Though her endorsement to be the Maidenhead Byelection candidate may still carry some weight.

    But the text of the speech doesn't matter. The frankly Jungian physical manifestations of the inner chaos put paid to that. What an absolute national disaster were facing. Leavened only with it being hilarious.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 1,928

    Curse of new thread!

    The sad thing about all the shit that went down during the speech is that it has detracted from analysis of what she actually said.

    Which was channelling Miliband policies that were ruthlessly attacked by the Tories previously and a load of hooey about opportunity that entirely sat at odds with her relentlessly nasty and authoritarian speech of 2016. In other words loaded with layer on layer of hypocrisy. That's what the papers should be exposing.

    As for Boris, the guy has repeatedly shown himself unfit to run a whelk stall. He's derided by virtually the whole world. If he gets the top job, we'll be ostracised, a global laughing stock.

    We need a proper deal now, to rise above the bullshit, the fantasy and the party politics, and it's a deal only a remainer can make.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 1,928

    The irony is the text of the speech wasn't bad. https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2017/10/renewing-the-british-dream-mays-speech-in-full.html

    Wasn't bad in the sense it tried to put parsecs between May and her rabid 9 months between " Citizens of Nowhere " and *that* campaign. It's a largely sunny, Cameroonian speech from someone who was a Cameron before Cameron. Books will be written for decades on how an arch moderniser destroyed her Premiership with the sort of rabid culture war lurch she'd spent her previous career fighting against. It's ok inexplicable to date.

    Also worth noting the only serving political name checked in the text. Ruth Davidson. Just as she was the only one name checked by Blair in his latest magisterial piece. Davidson really is the Designated Survivor of centrism fated to emerge from the bunker after all this is over in 5 years or so.

    Also note the two odd mentions of Osborne in the speech. Was she planning on bringing him back Mandelson style ? Too late now. Though her endorsement to be the Maidenhead Byelection candidate may still carry some weight.

    But the text of the speech doesn't matter. The frankly Jungian physical manifestations of the inner chaos put paid to that. What an absolute national disaster were facing. Leavened only with it being hilarious.

    But how can you take a leader seriously who snarls at liberals one year and tickles their tummy the next. I'm sorry, all evidence from her time at the HO points to her real views being more the former. She's just channeling her weakness. She has to go.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,491
    edited October 5
    Apart from that what did you think of the play Mr Lincoln?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 17,829

    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    Oh god not more of this. Its too cruel.

    I know. Forcing us to read the same header over and over again!
    Unfortunately it is the big story
    It was a joke, Mike
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,362
    Fallon?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,491
    .....and the winner is ........THE SUN!!!!!
  • YellowSubmarineYellowSubmarine Posts: 2,409
    How does this ' price cap ' work by the way ? If the government caps SVTs what's to stop the Big 6 just slowly inflating fixed tariffs to maintain their profit margins ? May is spot on about the demographics of those on SVTs and why they don't switch. But those demographics will also apply to lower electoral turnouts and voting Labour. While the kind of folk with the capacity to fluidly switch will be more likely to vote. The danger is she fixes one problem but the dam just burst elsewhere - and in a way that will actually cost her more votes than the status quo.

    If we really are going to go down the route of regulating the general prices of a privately provided product the Water Regulation regime is the obvious and sensible model. It had uniform political buy in until Comrade Corbyn and in terms of the long term cost of Water it worked.

  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 3,963
    Jonathan said:

    While the only alternatives are Boris or Corbyn, she has to continue.

    There are more alternatives. It is questionable whether if there was a contest that Boris would make it to the final members' ballot
    It has been weird how the Tories have been in denial about May. This was not a surprise to anyone outside the blue tent
    Link us to your prediction of it, then. I am gutted at missing your tip to back ”letter F falls off slogan” at 200/1. Either that, or stop aftertiming. This was all entirely contingent, shit happens stuff. The F could have stayed in place, the voice could have lasted another half hour.
  • nielhnielh Posts: 851
    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    Oh god not more of this. Its too cruel.

    I know. Forcing us to read the same header over and over again!
    Unfortunately it is the big story
    The Guardian piece linked to on the last thread was truly excellent. "Two drunks fighting in a puddle" . The lack of insight in each party behind the writer's pertinent question, "why are we not murdering this lot?" was painfully exposed.

    Heath and the latter day Wilson wasn't a great choice in 74 but it was better than this. An increasingly demented Thatcher or Kinnock in 87 wasn't great either. But its not easy to think of a time when our leadership choices were so totally inadequate.
    24 hour news killed politics for a lot of potential people. As others continually say there is more (potentially a lot more) money for far less hassle elsewhere...
    That is how we ended up with Laura Pidcock MP.
  • Jonathan said:

    Fallon?

    Please.

    I tipped him at 100/1 and he’ll pay for a long weekend in Monaco.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 39,546
    Mr. Submarine, Ammianus Marcellinus generally approved of Julian the Apostate, but did lambast the emperor when he sought to curry popular favour by fixing the price of commodities (food), correctly pointing out that such policies lead to shortages and even famine.

    That was in the 4th century.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 1,928
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Jonathan said:

    While the only alternatives are Boris or Corbyn, she has to continue.

    There are more alternatives. It is questionable whether if there was a contest that Boris would make it to the final members' ballot
    It has been weird how the Tories have been in denial about May. This was not a surprise to anyone outside the blue tent
    Link us to your prediction of it, then. I am gutted at missing your tip to back ”letter F falls off slogan” at 200/1. Either that, or stop aftertiming. This was all entirely contingent, shit happens stuff. The F could have stayed in place, the voice could have lasted another half hour.
    But then people would have ripped into the speech, full of hypocrisy and fairy tales.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 2,007
    edited October 5

    In the context of leadership contests, this data may well be useful:

    I’d love to be at a meeting of the SNP Cornwall branch. Presumably ex-pat Scots?

    On a serious note, Labour not as youth and London-dominated as you might think.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 3,963
    If the PM resigns does that count as leaving the Cabinet?
  • Ishmael_Z said:

    If the PM resigns does that count as leaving the Cabinet?

    Depends on the wording, but if it is a resignation like Dave or Maggie, the dead heat rules apply, as they went with other cabinet ministers, the day they officially left office.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,375
    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    Oh god not more of this. Its too cruel.

    I know. Forcing us to read the same header over and over again!
    Unfortunately it is the big story
    The Guardian piece linked to on the last thread was truly excellent. "Two drunks fighting in a puddle" . The lack of insight in each party behind the writer's pertinent question, "why are we not murdering this lot?" was painfully exposed.

    Heath and the latter day Wilson wasn't a great choice in 74 but it was better than this. An increasingly demented Thatcher or Kinnock in 87 wasn't great either. But its not easy to think of a time when our leadership choices were so totally inadequate.
    24 hour news killed politics for a lot of potential people. As others continually say there is more (potentially a lot more) money for far less hassle elsewhere...
    I agree but it is only recently that we had DC as PM and GO as Chancellor. As grown up a government as I can recall, if not without its petty moments. The three most obviously capable people in the country to lead the country (excluding DC), Osborne, Balls and Davidson are not even in the House of Commons. Its grim.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,362
    edited October 5
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Jonathan said:

    While the only alternatives are Boris or Corbyn, she has to continue.

    There are more alternatives. It is questionable whether if there was a contest that Boris would make it to the final members' ballot
    It has been weird how the Tories have been in denial about May. This was not a surprise to anyone outside the blue tent
    Link us to your prediction of it, then. I am gutted at missing your tip to back ”letter F falls off slogan” at 200/1. Either that, or stop aftertiming. This was all entirely contingent, shit happens stuff. The F could have stayed in place, the voice could have lasted another half hour.
    From Tuesday night...
    "
    May lost power in June. She is soon to lose office. Destined to be one of the more tragic figures of British politics.
    "

    Spot on, I'd say.
  • DavidL said:

    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    Oh god not more of this. Its too cruel.

    I know. Forcing us to read the same header over and over again!
    Unfortunately it is the big story
    The Guardian piece linked to on the last thread was truly excellent. "Two drunks fighting in a puddle" . The lack of insight in each party behind the writer's pertinent question, "why are we not murdering this lot?" was painfully exposed.

    Heath and the latter day Wilson wasn't a great choice in 74 but it was better than this. An increasingly demented Thatcher or Kinnock in 87 wasn't great either. But its not easy to think of a time when our leadership choices were so totally inadequate.
    24 hour news killed politics for a lot of potential people. As others continually say there is more (potentially a lot more) money for far less hassle elsewhere...
    I agree but it is only recently that we had DC as PM and GO as Chancellor. As grown up a government as I can recall, if not without its petty moments. The three most obviously capable people in the country to lead the country (excluding DC), Osborne, Balls and Davidson are not even in the House of Commons. Its grim.
    Brexit really did screw the country by hollowing out the Tory party at the top.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 39,546
    Mr. L, Osborne's own damn fault.

    And for those who cite May's unnecessarily harsh treatment of him: nobody forced him out of the Commons. Osborne left of his own accord.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,375

    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    Oh god not more of this. Its too cruel.

    I know. Forcing us to read the same header over and over again!
    Unfortunately it is the big story
    The Guardian piece linked to on the last thread was truly excellent. "Two drunks fighting in a puddle" . The lack of insight in each party behind the writer's pertinent question, "why are we not murdering this lot?" was painfully exposed.

    Heath and the latter day Wilson wasn't a great choice in 74 but it was better than this. An increasingly demented Thatcher or Kinnock in 87 wasn't great either. But its not easy to think of a time when our leadership choices were so totally inadequate.
    24 hour news killed politics for a lot of potential people. As others continually say there is more (potentially a lot more) money for far less hassle elsewhere...
    I agree but it is only recently that we had DC as PM and GO as Chancellor. As grown up a government as I can recall, if not without its petty moments. The three most obviously capable people in the country to lead the country (excluding DC), Osborne, Balls and Davidson are not even in the House of Commons. Its grim.
    Brexit really did screw the country by hollowing out the Tory party at the top.
    I think that's unfair but it certainly exposed the canker underneath. Both parties have been painfully short of talent for a long time. Those 2 were the exception.
  • YellowSubmarineYellowSubmarine Posts: 2,409
    Anyway in the last 18 hours my heart of Obsidian has melted slightly. I'm going to start praying Theresa May. I've never prayed for a politician before. I can't rationalise it but there seems something it uniquely tragic about her. She may be an evil old Banshee who ran an election campaign telling me I wasn't properly British but ...

    It's a bit like writing an Amnesty International letter for a hideous murderer on the grounds of principle of the Death Penalty. She may utterly deserve what's coming too her and it will be hilarious. But nevertheless human beings deserve a core of compassion that escaped me yesterday. I will ask Our Lady of Lewisham to watch over her.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 25,849
    edited October 5
    The Daily Mail Simon Jenkins, the Guardian:

    Gone by the autumn: that was the conventional wisdom when Theresa May failed to win her election majority last summer. She was a dead woman walking. She would not even make it to her party conference, let alone survive it.

    She is still there, and shows no signs of leaving. So much for the conventional wisdom, biased always to apocalypse and bored by continuity......

    I suspect May will emerge from this debacle curiously strengthened. Her enemies will inevitably see it as a coded sign of female weakness, but her greatest lack so far has been of humanity. In Manchester, she was compelled to convey humour, vulnerability and a degree of emotion. I doubt if it will do her much harm. She may be unpopular but survive she will, for the time being. The Tories elected her a year ago. They know they must live with her.

    Conferences are a distorting lens of political fortune. British party leaders are in a phenomenally strong position, provided they hold their nerve. The bizarre events in Manchester suggest May’s nerve, if not her voice, remains steady.


    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/04/manchester-theresa-may-voice-speech
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 129
    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    Oh god not more of this. Its too cruel.

    I know. Forcing us to read the same header over and over again!
    Unfortunately it is the big story
    The Guardian piece linked to on the last thread was truly excellent. "Two drunks fighting in a puddle" . The lack of insight in each party behind the writer's pertinent question, "why are we not murdering this lot?" was painfully exposed.

    Heath and the latter day Wilson wasn't a great choice in 74 but it was better than this. An increasingly demented Thatcher or Kinnock in 87 wasn't great either. But its not easy to think of a time when our leadership choices were so totally inadequate.
    24 hour news killed politics for a lot of potential people. As others continually say there is more (potentially a lot more) money for far less hassle elsewhere...
    But no one should want to be a government minister for the money
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 3,963

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Jonathan said:

    While the only alternatives are Boris or Corbyn, she has to continue.

    There are more alternatives. It is questionable whether if there was a contest that Boris would make it to the final members' ballot
    It has been weird how the Tories have been in denial about May. This was not a surprise to anyone outside the blue tent
    Link us to your prediction of it, then. I am gutted at missing your tip to back ”letter F falls off slogan” at 200/1. Either that, or stop aftertiming. This was all entirely contingent, shit happens stuff. The F could have stayed in place, the voice could have lasted another half hour.
    But then people would have ripped into the speech, full of hypocrisy and fairy tales.
    And inspired in equal parts by Miliband, E. and Corbyn, J. To be fair they are probably doing just that on the inside pages. But there is too much ”i saw this coming, not like the stupid PB Tories" on here.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 39,546
    In better news, ISIS has lost almost all its Iraqi territory:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-41509085
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 4,176

    Jonathan said:

    Fallon?

    Please.

    I tipped him at 100/1 and he’ll pay for a long weekend in Monaco.
    Just what the country needs a convicted drunken driver
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,106

    Anyway in the last 18 hours my heart of Obsidian has melted slightly. I'm going to start praying Theresa May. I've never prayed for a politician before. I can't rationalise it but there seems something it uniquely tragic about her. She may be an evil old Banshee who ran an election campaign telling me I wasn't properly British but ...

    It's a bit like writing an Amnesty International letter for a hideous murderer on the grounds of principle of the Death Penalty. She may utterly deserve what's coming too her and it will be hilarious. But nevertheless human beings deserve a core of compassion that escaped me yesterday. I will ask Our Lady of Lewisham to watch over her.

    I think the less you say the better.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 717
    I do think this is more dangerous to May's Premiership than almost anything else that has happened. As the Tories found while canvassing in 1997, while anger, distrust, or even hatred can be overcome, when they look at you with pity in their eyes, it's all over.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 39,546
    Mr. Smithson, I'll take a drunk driver over a terrorist sympathiser.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 25,849
    What is it with the left and anti-semitism?

    Austria’s centre-left chancellor is battling allegations that his party paid for a group of websites churning out xenophobic and antisemitic conspiracy theories in order to discredit his main challenger in the eyes of far-right supporters.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/05/negative-campaign-sites-scandal-shakes-up-austrian-election-race
  • YellowSubmarineYellowSubmarine Posts: 2,409
    Ishmael_Z said:

    If the PM resigns does that count as leaving the Cabinet?

    Check the small print. When a PM resigns the whole government is dissolved. May trigger ' Dead Heat ' rules as in constitutional theory the whole Cabinet went with her.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,362

    Jonathan said:

    Fallon?

    Please.

    I tipped him at 100/1 and he’ll pay for a long weekend in Monaco.
    Just what the country needs a convicted drunken driver
    Good grief. So it's clearly Gove then?
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 1,892

    It's hard to escape the conclusion that once he goes the Tories are looking at a very long time out of power.

    A fate richly deserved given their abandonment of governing in the national interest.
  • Jonathan said:

    Fallon?

    Please.

    I tipped him at 100/1 and he’ll pay for a long weekend in Monaco.
    Just what the country needs a convicted drunken driver
    Corbyn has lowered the bar in what we look for in Prime Ministers.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 10,167
    If we step away from our bubble listening to both the radio and tv this morning the public seem to be on her side and in Chester they were very supportive and said their is 'no one else'

    Those last three words must resonate widely and I would agree that I cannot recall a time when both the government and the opposition were so devoid of talent and at the same time facing the most important issue for decades.

    I have supported Theresa much because I do not see a successor but the person who is key in all this is her husband. If he feels she needs to stand down he will hopefully guide her.

    I know the anti conservative supporters on here are desperate for her to stand down in the hope of an election, but judging by the mood of the Country they do not want an election and neither is Corbyn a shoe in, as he contributes in a big way to the public's perception that they are all inadequate.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 19,125
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    Oh god not more of this. Its too cruel.

    I know. Forcing us to read the same header over and over again!
    Unfortunately it is the big story
    The Guardian piece linked to on the last thread was truly excellent. "Two drunks fighting in a puddle" . The lack of insight in each party behind the writer's pertinent question, "why are we not murdering this lot?" was painfully exposed.

    Heath and the latter day Wilson wasn't a great choice in 74 but it was better than this. An increasingly demented Thatcher or Kinnock in 87 wasn't great either. But its not easy to think of a time when our leadership choices were so totally inadequate.
    24 hour news killed politics for a lot of potential people. As others continually say there is more (potentially a lot more) money for far less hassle elsewhere...
    I agree but it is only recently that we had DC as PM and GO as Chancellor. As grown up a government as I can recall, if not without its petty moments. The three most obviously capable people in the country to lead the country (excluding DC), Osborne, Balls and Davidson are not even in the House of Commons. Its grim.
    Brexit really did screw the country by hollowing out the Tory party at the top.
    I think that's unfair but it certainly exposed the canker underneath. Both parties have been painfully short of talent for a long time. Those 2 were the exception.
    TBH, that seems to be the case throughout the Western world. How many first rate politicians are there?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 17,821
    I expect that Theresa May kept going after the election because she felt that it was her duty to do so, given that the alternatives were worse. With the benefit of hindsight, she should have stepped down then though - she simply didn't have what it takes to recover from such a crushing blow.

    I hope that her husband quietly tells her that she has done more than enough now and that she should make way.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,375

    Jonathan said:

    Fallon?

    Please.

    I tipped him at 100/1 and he’ll pay for a long weekend in Monaco.
    Just what the country needs a convicted drunken driver
    The least of his problems. Obnoxious, boorish, not very bright and pedantic. His role as an "attack dog" merely reflected the fish in the barrel targets he was aiming at. He offers nothing.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 27,511
    I see the bbc have finally caught up with the guardians report of several days ago on the ted heath investigation. The Guardian one actually mentioned the low threshold that is 'grounds to suspect' (a rather weak outcome after millions and years ) and it also explained how the police notes referring to victims and that they didn't find contradictory evidence to some claims rather than finding proof of the claims, showing the investigation used the fundamentally flawed approach as criticised by the Henriques report in assuming allegations are true and expecting the accused to essentially prove themselves innocent.

    They'd question him, maybe, if he were alive, that's it. That is them spinning that he's guilt but they are able to prove it.

    The report will be interesting - if the Guardian are right about how the investigation was conducted, which essentially biases investigators from the off and places the burden on the accused to prove innocence, then it truly was a colossal waste. For their sake I hope there was more to it.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,491

    Jonathan said:

    Fallon?

    Please.

    I tipped him at 100/1 and he’ll pay for a long weekend in Monaco.
    Just what the country needs a convicted drunken driver
    Fits the zeitgeist perfectly i'd say
  • DavidL said:

    Jonathan said:

    Fallon?

    Please.

    I tipped him at 100/1 and he’ll pay for a long weekend in Monaco.
    Just what the country needs a convicted drunken driver
    The least of his problems. Obnoxious, boorish, not very bright and pedantic. His role as an "attack dog" merely reflected the fish in the barrel targets he was aiming at. He offers nothing.
    He’s a proper Thatcherite. Mrs T adored him.

    Had he not lost his seat 1992 I reckon he might have replaced John Major in 1997.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 2,007
    edited October 5
    The problem with politicians everywhere is that winning elections is a very different skill set to governing competently. Unfortunately we choose our leaders by assuming they can do the latter based on how well they do the former.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 19,125
    kle4 said:

    I see the bbc have finally caught up with the guardians report of several days ago on the ted heath investigation. The Guardian one actually mentioned the low threshold that is 'grounds to suspect' (a rather weak outcome after millions and years ) and it also explained how the police notes referring to victims and that they didn't find contradictory evidence to some claims rather than finding proof of the claims, showing the investigation used the fundamentally flawed approach as criticised by the Henriques report in assuming allegations are true and expecting the accused to essentially prove themselves innocent.

    They'd question him, maybe, if he were alive, that's it. That is them spinning that he's guilt but they are able to prove it.

    The report will be interesting - if the Guardian are right about how the investigation was conducted, which essentially biases investigators from the off and places the burden on the accused to prove innocence, then it truly was a colossal waste. For their sake I hope there was more to it.

    I've never thought it was anything other than rubbish. The idea of Ted Heath and Harvey Proctor attending parties together at which boys were raped and murdered beggars belief.
  • I expect that Theresa May kept going after the election because she felt that it was her duty to do so, given that the alternatives were worse. With the benefit of hindsight, she should have stepped down then though - she simply didn't have what it takes to recover from such a crushing blow.

    I hope that her husband quietly tells her that she has done more than enough now and that she should make way.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 27,511

    Mr. L, Osborne's own damn fault.

    And for those who cite May's unnecessarily harsh treatment of him: nobody forced him out of the Commons. Osborne left of his own accord.

    That's where he list my sympathy, and his apparently personal vindictiveNess is unnecessary, though like others I agreed the way may fired him was not needed at the time. He's responsible for his personal vendetta, butv she didn't need to make such a big enemy.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 233
    The reality remains that the Tories can't afford to waste 3 months with a leadership election with Article 50 ticking. If no deal happens they could not shift the blame. They need to blame it on May if that happens.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 1,892
    kle4 said:

    Mr. L, Osborne's own damn fault.

    And for those who cite May's unnecessarily harsh treatment of him: nobody forced him out of the Commons. Osborne left of his own accord.

    That's where he list my sympathy, and his apparently personal vindictiveNess is unnecessary, though like others I agreed the way may fired him was not needed at the time. He's responsible for his personal vendetta, butv she didn't need to make such a big enemy.
    A personal vendetta or just Osborne recognising the damage she's doing to the Tory party and trying to stop it?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 10,167
    Essexit said:
    I heard his speech and he and others like him will be the catalyst that will increase the anti EU sentiment
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 27,511
    Elliot said:

    The reality remains that the Tories can't afford to waste 3 months with a leadership election with Article 50 ticking. If no deal happens they could not shift the blame. They need to blame it on May if that happens.

    That's why she needed to stick around, in my view but if things get too bad enough will force action now. A coronation needed, but after last time and all the divisions that seems unlikely.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 25,849
    edited October 5

    In the context of leadership contests, this data may well be useful:

    Kills a couple of myths:

    i) The Tories are pensioners - average ages are within 10% of each other across the Parties
    ii) No Tories in Scotland - proportionately more than Labour or the Lib Dems
    iii) Labour is a 'London/M25' Party - its the least represented in London/South East of the national parties.
    iv) The Tories are the London/South East Party - not when the Lib Dems have 60% of their members there.
    v) Labour is the Party of the young - really, with 16% of their members under 34 while the Tories have 14% and the LD's 20%?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 39,546
    Mr. F, quite. There's a spotlight on politicians but not policies, more money can earnt with far less hassle elsewhere, and any deviation of thought is a 'split'. Political journalists are generally rubbish.

    Mr. kle/Mr. F, quite. But old white guys don't benefit from investigations being culturally insensitive.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 6,767

    Jonathan said:

    Fallon?

    Please.

    I tipped him at 100/1 and he’ll pay for a long weekend in Monaco.
    He's cr@p,look at the disastrous interviews at the General election.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 4,099
    Mr Observer,

    I agree with you, this is the worst Government and Opposition I can remember. A dim, hard- left Trot with an inflexible mind, and a woman lacking confidence, political ability or judgement.

    BTW, yesterday at Conference was irrelevant. She had a cough, a nutter in the crowd made a childish gesture, and a set misbehaved. Which ones were her fault? None of them.

    Catalonia receives sympathy for holding an illegal referendum and wishing for freedom from the larger state. The LDs demand we stay in the EU despite a legal referendum voting to leave. And they call themselves Democrats.

    Vote for NOTA!
  • Mr. F, quite. There's a spotlight on politicians but not policies, more money can earnt with far less hassle elsewhere, and any deviation of thought is a 'split'. Political journalists are generally rubbish.

    Mr. kle/Mr. F, quite. But old white guys don't benefit from investigations being culturally insensitive.

    Jimmy Savile says hello.
  • JonathanD said:

    kle4 said:

    Mr. L, Osborne's own damn fault.

    And for those who cite May's unnecessarily harsh treatment of him: nobody forced him out of the Commons. Osborne left of his own accord.

    That's where he list my sympathy, and his apparently personal vindictiveNess is unnecessary, though like others I agreed the way may fired him was not needed at the time. He's responsible for his personal vendetta, butv she didn't need to make such a big enemy.
    A personal vendetta or just Osborne recognising the damage she's doing to the Tory party and trying to stop it?
    Mrs May could show is the bigger person with the county and party’s interests at heart by ennobling George and bringing him back into government.

    If Gordon Brown could manage it with Peter Mandelson then so can Mrs May, but we all know she’s a vindicative person whose programming doesn’t allow such magnanimity.

    She’s more comfortable with Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill at her side.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 2,360
    Elliot said:

    The reality remains that the Tories can't afford to waste 3 months with a leadership election with Article 50 ticking. If no deal happens they could not shift the blame. They need to blame it on May if that happens.

    That seems overly cruel keeping May on just to take the blame.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 1,411
    edited October 5
    This is all very familiar.

    Isn't it the same mocking that Ed Miliband suffered ? Wasn't it Justine who protected him at the end and played the 'Philip May' role?

    Or the same ridiculing laughter that Ming Campbell faced (remember 'Grandpa')?

    In fact, Jeremy was on the receiving end of it for almost the first year or so as Leader of the Opposition. I think his time will come again.

    It is often orchestrated by the press, but the rival party supporters join in all too enthusiastically.

    And, then we wonder why there are few people of any talent to lead the country?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 39,546
    Mr. Eagles, there were rumours about Savile even in the early 1990s. The authorities turned a blind eye over decades.

    Savile's dead. They can't chase his ghost, and police trying to pin blame on other dead white guys or putting old men through investigation based on spurious claims is adding to failure, not redeeming themselves.

    Right now there are large numbers of rape gangs targeting young girls and boys. That should be the police focus.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 4,996

    In the context of leadership contests, this data may well be useful:

    Kills a couple of myths:

    i) The Tories are pensioners - average ages are within 10% of each other across the Parties
    ii) No Tories in Scotland - proportionately more than Labour or the Lib Dems
    iii) Labour is a 'London/M25' Party - its the least represented in London/South East of the national parties.
    iv) The Tories are the London/South East Party - not when the Lib Dems have 60% of their members there.
    v) Labour is the Party of the young - really, with 16% of their members under 34 while the Tories have 14% and the LD's 20%?
    I think the difference between perception and reality is due to the active membership having a different profile to the overall membership. Labour's activists are younger and more male - the majority of members just sit at home.
  • Jonathan said:

    Fallon?

    Please.

    I tipped him at 100/1 and he’ll pay for a long weekend in Monaco.
    He's cr@p,look at the disastrous interviews at the General election.
    Blame Mrs May, no one had a good campaign thanks to her.

    Ruth Davidson and the Scons has an excellent campaign as they ran their own campaign
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 27,511
    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    I see the bbc have finally caught up with the guardians report of several days ago on the ted heath investigation. The Guardian one actually mentioned the low threshold that is 'grounds to suspect' (a rather weak outcome after millions and years ) and it also explained how

    They'd question him, maybe, if he were alive, that's it. That is them spinning that he's guilt but they are able to prove it.

    The report will be interesting - if the Guardian are right about how the investigation was conducted, which essentially biases investigators from the off and places the burden on the accused to prove innocence, then it truly was a colossal waste. For their sake I hope there was more to it.

    I've never thought it was anything other than rubbish. The idea of Ted Heath and Harvey Proctor attending parties together at which boys were raped and murdered beggars belief.
    I have no issue with a claim being investigated, and thoroughly too given the implications. Even in the case of being so historic and thus hard to prove , and even if the subject is dead, if an allegation is serious enough some level of investigation may be warranted. Of course, one must question how much time and money can be afforded to not given other priorities.

    But the claims need to be substantive, there needs to be corroboration, and most vitally the investigation needs to be properly conducted. The unacceptability of an approach which presumes guilt and biases investigators as detailed by the Henriques report really stuck with me. The automatically believing alleged victims and making people, who are in this case dead, needing to prove innocence, is abhorrent to the very idea of proper procedure, and the Guardian report, though not negative, indicated by detail they used that approach.

    That 'grounds to suspect' is such a low barrier but will be taken as proof of guilt is very sad.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 5,389
    CD13 said:

    Mr Observer,

    I agree with you, this is the worst Government and Opposition I can remember. A dim, hard- left Trot with an inflexible mind, and a woman lacking confidence, political ability or judgement.

    BTW, yesterday at Conference was irrelevant. She had a cough, a nutter in the crowd made a childish gesture, and a set misbehaved. Which ones were her fault? None of them.

    Catalonia receives sympathy for holding an illegal referendum and wishing for freedom from the larger state. The LDs demand we stay in the EU despite a legal referendum voting to leave. And they call themselves Democrats.

    Vote for NOTA!

    "The LDs demand we stay in the EU despite a legal referendum voting to leave."

    That's factually incorrect.
    As I understand it they want a new referendum on the deal once it has been agreed between the UK and EU. You can disagree with that, but they are asking for MORE democracy.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 5,655

    CD13 said:

    Mr Observer,

    I agree with you, this is the worst Government and Opposition I can remember. A dim, hard- left Trot with an inflexible mind, and a woman lacking confidence, political ability or judgement.

    BTW, yesterday at Conference was irrelevant. She had a cough, a nutter in the crowd made a childish gesture, and a set misbehaved. Which ones were her fault? None of them.

    Catalonia receives sympathy for holding an illegal referendum and wishing for freedom from the larger state. The LDs demand we stay in the EU despite a legal referendum voting to leave. And they call themselves Democrats.

    Vote for NOTA!

    "The LDs demand we stay in the EU despite a legal referendum voting to leave."

    That's factually incorrect.
    As I understand it they want a new referendum on the deal once it has been agreed between the UK and EU. You can disagree with that, but they are asking for MORE democracy.
    Can anyone answer the question to me what happens if we vote no in that referendum?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 27,511
    JonathanD said:

    kle4 said:

    Mr. L, Osborne's own damn fault.

    And for those who cite May's unnecessarily harsh treatment of him: nobody forced him out of the Commons. Osborne left of his own accord.

    That's where he list my sympathy, and his apparently personal vindictiveNess is unnecessary, though like others I agreed the way may fired him was not needed at the time. He's responsible for his personal vendetta, butv she didn't need to make such a big enemy.
    A personal vendetta or just Osborne recognising the damage she's doing to the Tory party and trying to stop it?
    Personal - he said he wanted her chopped up in bags in his freezer.his obvious hatred undermines whatever true points he makes
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 1,411

    Anyway in the last 18 hours my heart of Obsidian has melted slightly. I'm going to start praying Theresa May. I've never prayed for a politician before. I can't rationalise it but there seems something it uniquely tragic about her. She may be an evil old Banshee who ran an election campaign telling me I wasn't properly British but ...

    It's a bit like writing an Amnesty International letter for a hideous murderer on the grounds of principle of the Death Penalty. She may utterly deserve what's coming too her and it will be hilarious. But nevertheless human beings deserve a core of compassion that escaped me yesterday. I will ask Our Lady of Lewisham to watch over her.

    Don't worry, YS.

    As soon as you gave unqualified backing to the EU Commission for the Spanish Government’s dreadful repression in Catalonia, you could sink no lower.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 27,511

    Jonathan said:

    Fallon?

    Please.

    I tipped him at 100/1 and he’ll pay for a long weekend in Monaco.
    He's cr@p,look at the disastrous interviews at the General election.
    Blame Mrs May, no one had a good campaign thanks to her.

    Ruth Davidson and the Scons has an excellent campaign as they ran their own campaign
    In fairness they had a much simpler message to advance.
  • PeterMannionPeterMannion Posts: 192
    This 'TMay' chat from the OP is lifting
  • CD13 said:

    Mr Observer,

    I agree with you, this is the worst Government and Opposition I can remember. A dim, hard- left Trot with an inflexible mind, and a woman lacking confidence, political ability or judgement.

    BTW, yesterday at Conference was irrelevant. She had a cough, a nutter in the crowd made a childish gesture, and a set misbehaved. Which ones were her fault? None of them.

    Catalonia receives sympathy for holding an illegal referendum and wishing for freedom from the larger state. The LDs demand we stay in the EU despite a legal referendum voting to leave. And they call themselves Democrats.

    Vote for NOTA!

    "The LDs demand we stay in the EU despite a legal referendum voting to leave."

    That's factually incorrect.
    As I understand it they want a new referendum on the deal once it has been agreed between the UK and EU. You can disagree with that, but they are asking for MORE democracy.
    Can anyone answer the question to me what happens if we vote no in that referendum?
    Hard/WTO Brexit.

    So roughly where we’re headed for now.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,398


    As for Boris, the guy has repeatedly shown himself unfit to run a whelk stall. He's derided by virtually the whole world. If he gets the top job, we'll be ostracised, a global laughing stock.

    Did the election of Donald Trump pass you by completely?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 27,511
    edited October 5

    Mr. F, quite. There's a spotlight on politicians but not policies, more money can earnt with far less hassle elsewhere, and any deviation of thought is a 'split'. Political journalists are generally rubbish.

    Mr. kle/Mr. F, quite. But old white guys don't benefit from investigations being culturally insensitive.

    Jimmy Savile says hello.
    Investigations, if properly conducted, can be justified into historic claims . An approach which instructs investigators to refer to complainants as victims, believe them before any corroboration is found, and presume it us true unless the accused proves otherwise, is not the answer. The Guardian report woukd seem to indicate the police in thus case did just that.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 5,655

    CD13 said:

    Mr Observer,

    I agree with you, this is the worst Government and Opposition I can remember. A dim, hard- left Trot with an inflexible mind, and a woman lacking confidence, political ability or judgement.

    BTW, yesterday at Conference was irrelevant. She had a cough, a nutter in the crowd made a childish gesture, and a set misbehaved. Which ones were her fault? None of them.

    Catalonia receives sympathy for holding an illegal referendum and wishing for freedom from the larger state. The LDs demand we stay in the EU despite a legal referendum voting to leave. And they call themselves Democrats.

    Vote for NOTA!

    "The LDs demand we stay in the EU despite a legal referendum voting to leave."

    That's factually incorrect.
    As I understand it they want a new referendum on the deal once it has been agreed between the UK and EU. You can disagree with that, but they are asking for MORE democracy.
    Can anyone answer the question to me what happens if we vote no in that referendum?
    Hard/WTO Brexit.

    So roughly where we’re headed for now.
    So, what would be the point in the referendum given that the lib dems (and remainers) think that any deal is better than no deal?

    If thats what the referendum is of course.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 5,389

    CD13 said:

    Mr Observer,

    I agree with you, this is the worst Government and Opposition I can remember. A dim, hard- left Trot with an inflexible mind, and a woman lacking confidence, political ability or judgement.

    BTW, yesterday at Conference was irrelevant. She had a cough, a nutter in the crowd made a childish gesture, and a set misbehaved. Which ones were her fault? None of them.

    Catalonia receives sympathy for holding an illegal referendum and wishing for freedom from the larger state. The LDs demand we stay in the EU despite a legal referendum voting to leave. And they call themselves Democrats.

    Vote for NOTA!

    "The LDs demand we stay in the EU despite a legal referendum voting to leave."

    That's factually incorrect.
    As I understand it they want a new referendum on the deal once it has been agreed between the UK and EU. You can disagree with that, but they are asking for MORE democracy.
    Can anyone answer the question to me what happens if we vote no in that referendum?
    Depends whet the question is.
    Could be:
    Do you
    a) Accept the deal negotiated by HMG and the EU. (Alternatively do you want to crash out to WTO rules)
    b) Instruct HMG to withdraw A50.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 6,767

    Jonathan said:

    Fallon?

    Please.

    I tipped him at 100/1 and he’ll pay for a long weekend in Monaco.
    He's cr@p,look at the disastrous interviews at the General election.
    Blame Mrs May, no one had a good campaign thanks to her.

    Ruth Davidson and the Scons has an excellent campaign as they ran their own campaign
    What the Tories will need is a PM who can do passion,think on their feet and be bold with policies against corbyn at the next General election.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,398
    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    Oh god not more of this. Its too cruel.

    I know. Forcing us to read the same header over and over again!
    Unfortunately it is the big story
    The Guardian piece linked to on the last thread was truly excellent. "Two drunks fighting in a puddle" . The lack of insight in each party behind the writer's pertinent question, "why are we not murdering this lot?" was painfully exposed.

    Heath and the latter day Wilson wasn't a great choice in 74 but it was better than this. An increasingly demented Thatcher or Kinnock in 87 wasn't great either. But its not easy to think of a time when our leadership choices were so totally inadequate.
    24 hour news killed politics for a lot of potential people. As others continually say there is more (potentially a lot more) money for far less hassle elsewhere...
    I agree but it is only recently that we had DC as PM and GO as Chancellor. As grown up a government as I can recall, if not without its petty moments. The three most obviously capable people in the country to lead the country (excluding DC), Osborne, Balls and Davidson are not even in the House of Commons. Its grim.
    Starmer?
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 5,655
    kle4 said:

    JonathanD said:

    kle4 said:

    Mr. L, Osborne's own damn fault.

    And for those who cite May's unnecessarily harsh treatment of him: nobody forced him out of the Commons. Osborne left of his own accord.

    That's where he list my sympathy, and his apparently personal vindictiveNess is unnecessary, though like others I agreed the way may fired him was not needed at the time. He's responsible for his personal vendetta, butv she didn't need to make such a big enemy.
    A personal vendetta or just Osborne recognising the damage she's doing to the Tory party and trying to stop it?
    Personal - he said he wanted her chopped up in bags in his freezer.his obvious hatred undermines whatever true points he makes
    Osborne had his chance. He could have stood for the leadership when Cameron resigned. He didn't. Moaning about what happens after is a bit like setting a house on fire, refusing to put it out, walking away and then moaning about the ashes.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 59,914
    edited October 5

    CD13 said:

    Mr Observer,

    I agree with you, this is the worst Government and Opposition I can remember. A dim, hard- left Trot with an inflexible mind, and a woman lacking confidence, political ability or judgement.

    BTW, yesterday at Conference was irrelevant. She had a cough, a nutter in the crowd made a childish gesture, and a set misbehaved. Which ones were her fault? None of them.

    Catalonia receives sympathy for holding an illegal referendum and wishing for freedom from the larger state. The LDs demand we stay in the EU despite a legal referendum voting to leave. And they call themselves Democrats.

    Vote for NOTA!

    "The LDs demand we stay in the EU despite a legal referendum voting to leave."

    That's factually incorrect.
    As I understand it they want a new referendum on the deal once it has been agreed between the UK and EU. You can disagree with that, but they are asking for MORE democracy.
    Can anyone answer the question to me what happens if we vote no in that referendum?
    Hard/WTO Brexit.

    So roughly where we’re headed for now.
    So, what would be the point in the referendum given that the lib dems (and remainers) think that any deal is better than no deal?

    If thats what the referendum is of course.
    Not that I’m in favour of such a referendum, but I’d make it a multi option referendum.

    A ) Remain on our current terms

    B ) Leave on the proposed deal

    C ) Leave no matter what, replete with WTO Brexit

    Conducted under AV of course.
This discussion has been closed.