Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » For everyone’s sake, Mrs May shouldn’t demote Boris but engine

SystemSystem Posts: 3,967
edited October 8 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » For everyone’s sake, Mrs May shouldn’t demote Boris but engineer a job swap between her Foreign Secretary and the editor of the Evening Standard

SUNDAY TIMES POLITICAL LEAD May ‘plots to demote Boris’ by @ShippersUnbound #tomorrowspaperstoday pic.twitter.com/G2Sx86cP47

Read the full story here


«134

Comments

  • RobDRobD Posts: 30,527
    I didn't have to go beyond the title to work out whose thread thread this was :p (but thanks, nonetheless)
  • PendduPenddu Posts: 119
    Will the classic No 10 door be replaced by a revolving door?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 25,849
    If only Osborne hadn’t burnt all his bridges.......
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 25,849
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 8,936
    edited October 8
    Is it April 1st already? ;)
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 7,016
    Who made Boris Foreign Secretary in the first place?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 15,017
    That c*** Osborne is the source of a huge number of the problems, he’s certainly not part of any solution.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 17,829
    Sacking Boris won't create a needless enemy. She is already his enemy
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 7,368
    Alternatively, Boris's financial difficulties would be solved by moving into Number 10 and renting out his own place...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 20,364
    tlg86 said:

    Alternatively, Boris's financial difficulties would be solved by moving into Number 10 and renting out his own place...

    I thought The Foreign Secretary got digs in Carlton Gardens
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 15,092
    Sandpit said:

    That c*** Osborne is the source of a huge number of the problems, he’s certainly not part of any solution.

    +1

    (but I'd use stronger language about Osborne)
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 7,016
    Tory MPs use Whatsapp for security but someone leaks the lot to the papers. Amber Rudd is a cybersecurity genius next to this lot.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4959102/Implosion-plotters.html
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 7,368
    rcs1000 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Alternatively, Boris's financial difficulties would be solved by moving into Number 10 and renting out his own place...

    I thought The Foreign Secretary got digs in Carlton Gardens
    I didn't know that. I guess he doesn't feel secure enough to rent out his own place. If he is and is still in difficulty, then he really is f*****.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 17,997
    Sandpit said:

    That c*** Osborne is the source of a huge number of the problems, he’s certainly not part of any solution.

    Rubbish. He's a symptom of the disease within the party, not the source.

    The real disease is the view towards Europe within the party - a disease that has reduced party leaders in the past. Of course, that was when leavers were the bastards ...
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 25,849
    Sandpit said:

    That c*** Osborne is the source of a huge number of the problems, he’s certainly not part of any solution.

    I think Mrs May (and formerly those around her) is the author of her own misfortune - however agree entirely that Osborne is not remotely part of the answer. How could any PM work with someone who wanted to see her chopped up in his freezer?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,576
    Charles said:

    Sacking Boris won't create a needless enemy. She is already his enemy

    LIKE!!!!
  • Tory MPs use Whatsapp for security but someone leaks the lot to the papers. Amber Rudd is a cybersecurity genius next to this lot.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4959102/Implosion-plotters.html

    It confirms what I said the other day.

    Leavers like Owen Paterson are also trying to force Mrs May out.

    This isn’t a Leave v Remain thing.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 25,849
    Over to you Mrs May, hiring George Osborne might be the only way to save your Premiership.


    Denial isn’t a river in Egypt. He’s gone, and the way he's conducted himself has ensured he’s not coming back.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 15,017
    edited October 8

    Sandpit said:

    That c*** Osborne is the source of a huge number of the problems, he’s certainly not part of any solution.

    +1

    (but I'd use stronger language about Osborne)
    It’s strong enough language for 7am on a Sunday!

    Compare and contrast TCO’s behaviour with that of Michael Gove, who did a year of penance as a supportive backbencher and now has a key position in the Cabinet and is a good outside chance for next PM.

    Compare also with David Cameron, who quietly went his own way and has said very little in public since.

    Osborne could have been a backbench champion for the Northern Powerhuose, a project that would would have delivered huge positive change to that part of the country - but instead he takes the money, moves to London and behaves like a petulant 46 year old schoolboy.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 17,829
    rcs1000 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Alternatively, Boris's financial difficulties would be solved by moving into Number 10 and renting out his own place...

    I thought The Foreign Secretary got digs in Carlton Gardens
    It's only a suite of rooms
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 7,016
    How credible are the Boris is skint stories? His book royalties will still be flowing in, and he recently did eight years as Mayor of London so he's not had a massive pay cut. The only thing Boris will be missing is income from journalism.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 25,849
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    That c*** Osborne is the source of a huge number of the problems, he’s certainly not part of any solution.

    +1

    (but I'd use stronger language about Osborne)
    TCO
    A new acronym is born! Fits perfectly!
  • How credible are the Boris is skint stories? His book royalties will still be flowing in, and he recently did eight years as Mayor of London so he's not had a massive pay cut. The only thing Boris will be missing is income from journalism.

    He was earning 250k per year for his Telegraph column, which he had to give up when he became Foreign Secretary
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 17,829

    Charles said:

    Sacking Boris won't create a needless enemy. She is already his enemy

    LIKE!!!!
    I forget who it was attributed to, but the trick of being a successful politician is to remember your opponents are in front of you and your enemies behind
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,362
    Quite right too TSE. But not going to happen.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,576
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Sacking Boris won't create a needless enemy. She is already his enemy

    LIKE!!!!
    I forget who it was attributed to, but the trick of being a successful politician is to remember your opponents are in front of you and your enemies behind
    I think it was Ernie Bevin, 1945+ Foreign Sec, who said, when a fellow Cabinet Minister was described as'his own worst enemy “Not while I’m alive he’s not’!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 7,736
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Sacking Boris won't create a needless enemy. She is already his enemy

    LIKE!!!!
    I forget who it was attributed to, but the trick of being a successful politician is to remember your opponents are in front of you and your enemies behind
    It's attributed to Churchill greeting a new MP in 1955 who had looked at Labour and said 'Sp that's the enemy.' Many things are attributed to Churchill that he probably didn't say, though.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,576

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Sacking Boris won't create a needless enemy. She is already his enemy

    LIKE!!!!
    I forget who it was attributed to, but the trick of being a successful politician is to remember your opponents are in front of you and your enemies behind
    I think it was Ernie Bevin, 1945+ Foreign Sec, who said, when a fellow Cabinet Minister was described as'his own worst enemy “Not while I’m alive he’s not’!
    Although on reflection, Ernie was more likely to have said ‘...... alive, he ain’t!'
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 17,821
    George Osborne remains box office, as the splenetic reaction of pb's Leavers on this thread shows. But I doubt he has the slightest interest in helping to release Theresa May from her lobster pot.

    Boris Johnson should be replaced, however.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,362

    George Osborne remains box office, as the splenetic reaction of pb's Leavers on this thread shows. But I doubt he has the slightest interest in helping to release Theresa May from her lobster pot.

    Boris Johnson should be replaced, however.

    Not sure where he would be safely moved without flouncing out of the tent. Party Chairman? Ministry for Silly Walks?
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    At first I thought this was tongue in cheek until I realised who the author was. Among the general public I can't think of a more unpopular politician than Osborne, most of them divide opinion, he doesn't.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 39,546
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: missed most of the race. Mild pestilence kept me awake which then meant I overslept, missed the start, and then had to get up to walk the hound. Seen the bullet points, but I'll have to catch the highlights, if I feel like it.

    On-topic: could be wrong but I think Caligula was actually taking the piss. He didn't make Incitatus consul, he was just mocking senators.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,362

    At first I thought this was tongue in cheek until I realised who the author was. Among the general public I can't think of a more unpopular politician than Osborne, most of them divide opinion, he doesn't.

    Cynical journalist friend at Standard says he brilliant to work for.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,576
    Jonathan said:

    George Osborne remains box office, as the splenetic reaction of pb's Leavers on this thread shows. But I doubt he has the slightest interest in helping to release Theresa May from her lobster pot.

    Boris Johnson should be replaced, however.

    Not sure where he would be safely moved without flouncing out of the tent. Party Chairman? Ministry for Silly Walks?
    He’d probably be quite good as Party Chairman; the hard core would be very happy. And, from a non-Tory’s point of view, he’d probably upset quite a few people.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,362
    Tories getting the usual conference bounce? ;-)
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,364
    Jonathan said:

    Tories getting the usual conference bounce? ;-)
    The dates were after Labour, before Tory Conference, I think.
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    Jonathan said:

    At first I thought this was tongue in cheek until I realised who the author was. Among the general public I can't think of a more unpopular politician than Osborne, most of them divide opinion, he doesn't.

    Cynical journalist friend at Standard says he brilliant to work for.
    I understand you're not exactly a Tory supporter (nor me). I'd be wary of taking advice from an enemy.

  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    edited October 8
    Surely we're not not so bored or silly to believe polls anymore, they're meaningless.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 17,997

    Jonathan said:

    At first I thought this was tongue in cheek until I realised who the author was. Among the general public I can't think of a more unpopular politician than Osborne, most of them divide opinion, he doesn't.

    Cynical journalist friend at Standard says he brilliant to work for.
    I understand you're not exactly a Tory supporter (nor me). I'd be wary of taking advice from an enemy.
    You'd be right to be wary, but that does not mean that the 'enemy' might not have a point that is worth listening to ...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 15,017
    Jonathan said:

    At first I thought this was tongue in cheek until I realised who the author was. Among the general public I can't think of a more unpopular politician than Osborne, most of them divide opinion, he doesn't.

    Cynical journalist friend at Standard says he brilliant to work for.
    He probably is great to work for. He’s getting them a bunch of national publicity and letting all the remoaners on staff write what they want about the government.

    Doesn’t mean that he isn’t one of the most hated men in the country though.
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    Jonathan said:

    At first I thought this was tongue in cheek until I realised who the author was. Among the general public I can't think of a more unpopular politician than Osborne, most of them divide opinion, he doesn't.

    Cynical journalist friend at Standard says he brilliant to work for.
    I understand you're not exactly a Tory supporter (nor me). I'd be wary of taking advice from an enemy.
    You'd be right to be wary, but that does not mean that the 'enemy' might not have a point that is worth listening to ...
    Yes, enemies are always giving good advice, its what makes them enemies.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 17,997

    Jonathan said:

    At first I thought this was tongue in cheek until I realised who the author was. Among the general public I can't think of a more unpopular politician than Osborne, most of them divide opinion, he doesn't.

    Cynical journalist friend at Standard says he brilliant to work for.
    I understand you're not exactly a Tory supporter (nor me). I'd be wary of taking advice from an enemy.
    You'd be right to be wary, but that does not mean that the 'enemy' might not have a point that is worth listening to ...
    Yes, enemies are always giving good advice, its what makes them enemies.
    This is politics. In the late 1980s Labour heavily criticised the poll tax which, rightly or wrongly, turned out to be a disaster for Thatcher's government. If they had listened back then, they would have given Labour a minor victory, compared to the major one they got when the poll tax system collapsed.

    Just because they are the 'enemy' in politics, does not automatically mean they are wrong on everything.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 1,180
    I don't think too many people are that fussed by the politics soap opera at the moment. Support for the Tories isn't collapsing and they still have all the cards they need to win next time. The public will be pleased to get a new face, but that is best left to the run up to the next vote.

    The biggest risk they face is Labour coming out against Brexit. That will give a lot of people a reason to vote for Labour who have never done so before.
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    Jonathan said:

    At first I thought this was tongue in cheek until I realised who the author was. Among the general public I can't think of a more unpopular politician than Osborne, most of them divide opinion, he doesn't.

    Cynical journalist friend at Standard says he brilliant to work for.
    I understand you're not exactly a Tory supporter (nor me). I'd be wary of taking advice from an enemy.
    You'd be right to be wary, but that does not mean that the 'enemy' might not have a point that is worth listening to ...
    Yes, enemies are always giving good advice, its what makes them enemies.
    This is politics. In the late 1980s Labour heavily criticised the poll tax which, rightly or wrongly, turned out to be a disaster for Thatcher's government. If they had listened back then, they would have given Labour a minor victory, compared to the major one they got when the poll tax system collapsed.

    Just because they are the 'enemy' in politics, does not automatically mean they are wrong on everything.
    That is my point, they opposed the poll tax. If Labour supporters are bigging up Osborne I'd be wary of their motive.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,491
    edited October 8
    To have someone sitting around the cabinet table evidencing your poor judgement must be very debillitating
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 17,821
    Jonathan said:

    George Osborne remains box office, as the splenetic reaction of pb's Leavers on this thread shows. But I doubt he has the slightest interest in helping to release Theresa May from her lobster pot.

    Boris Johnson should be replaced, however.

    Not sure where he would be safely moved without flouncing out of the tent. Party Chairman? Ministry for Silly Walks?
    Let him flounce.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 24,907

    George Osborne remains box office, as the splenetic reaction of pb's Leavers on this thread shows. But I doubt he has the slightest interest in helping to release Theresa May from her lobster pot.

    Boris Johnson should be replaced, however.

    George Osborne spent all but the last six months of his political career depicting the EU as a destructive force intent on doing harm to the UK, as did David Cameron. They were both pivotal in creating the anti-EU narrative that so pervaded public discourse in this country in the decade before the referendum. Where we are now is as much his fault as Theresa May's.

  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,491
    Maybe Minister for sport if the position still exists...
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 17,997

    Jonathan said:

    At first I thought this was tongue in cheek until I realised who the author was. Among the general public I can't think of a more unpopular politician than Osborne, most of them divide opinion, he doesn't.

    Cynical journalist friend at Standard says he brilliant to work for.
    I understand you're not exactly a Tory supporter (nor me). I'd be wary of taking advice from an enemy.
    You'd be right to be wary, but that does not mean that the 'enemy' might not have a point that is worth listening to ...
    Yes, enemies are always giving good advice, its what makes them enemies.
    This is politics. In the late 1980s Labour heavily criticised the poll tax which, rightly or wrongly, turned out to be a disaster for Thatcher's government. If they had listened back then, they would have given Labour a minor victory, compared to the major one they got when the poll tax system collapsed.

    Just because they are the 'enemy' in politics, does not automatically mean they are wrong on everything.
    That is my point, they opposed the poll tax. If Labour supporters are bigging up Osborne I'd be wary of their motive.
    They were right to oppose the poll tax, regardless of their motive.

    I'm bemused by those so-called Conservatives slagging off Osborne (and hence achieving exactly what Osborne wants) for being in some way unfaithful to the party, when that party's leader treated him poorly, and whilst also thinking that Davis, IDS et al's flounces and past disloyal behaviour was absolutely fine.

    If remainers within the Conservative party are being 'disloyal', then the hardcore fanatical Europhobic Conservatives are just getting the medicine they dished out for a couple of decades. You'd need a heart of stone not to laugh.
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    @Recidivist

    "The biggest risk they face is Labour coming out against Brexit. That will give a lot of people a reason to vote for Labour who have never done so before."

    And vice versa, the vast majority of Labour voters are decent people who believe in democracy, they won't be taken for fools.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 938
    edited October 8
    Boris is obviously going to have to go. May could head off repercussion from his defenestrations by elevating one of his more prominent porte-étendards to high office.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,364

    I don't think too many people are that fussed by the politics soap opera at the moment. Support for the Tories isn't collapsing and they still have all the cards they need to win next time. The public will be pleased to get a new face, but that is best left to the run up to the next vote.

    The biggest risk they face is Labour coming out against Brexit. That will give a lot of people a reason to vote for Labour who have never done so before.

    Labour will bide their time over Brexit policy.

    Brexit is tearing apart the Tories, and it is not wise to interrupt an enemy while they are making a mistake.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 4,996
    Dura_Ace said:

    Boris is obviously going to have to go. May could head off repercussion from his defenestrations by elevating one of his more prominent porte-étendards to high office.

    Job swap between Boris and Priti?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,491

    At first I thought this was tongue in cheek until I realised who the author was. Among the general public I can't think of a more unpopular politician than Osborne, most of them divide opinion, he doesn't.

    I think the tide has turned on Osborne's unpopularity. When the public became aquainted with the rest of the freaks circus Osborne began to look significantly more attractive
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 7,736
    edited October 8

    I don't think too many people are that fussed by the politics soap opera at the moment. Support for the Tories isn't collapsing and they still have all the cards they need to win next time. The public will be pleased to get a new face, but that is best left to the run up to the next vote.

    The biggest risk they face is Labour coming out against Brexit. That will give a lot of people a reason to vote for Labour who have never done so before.

    The problem with that narrative is that actually, as we saw in the last election, Europe is not an issue that decides many people's votes. Anyone who was passionately pro-Remain had the option of voting for the Liberal Democrats, who have maybe one safe seat, and a number already voted Labour despite the fact that Labour were emphatically for out at the election. If it had been decisive, the Liberal Democrats would have won Islington and the Conservatives would have swept Stoke and Sunderland.

    I don't think that Labour could win on a 'stay in' vote. They might be able to win on a 'go back in' vote if Brexit is as disastrous as we are all now expecting, but that wouldn't be an easy sell in the north and I very much doubt if Corbyn, still less Macdonnnell would ever make it.

    It's the domestic narratives that will decide the next election. The problem for the Tories is that after four years of Brexit naval gazing they will have no good story to tell on that. The problem for Labour is that they also have no story to tell as they are still obsessing over points of dogma rather than working out coherent policy. That's how their recent conference ended up announcing that they would both abolish PFI in the NHS and extend it.

    As a country if we get the politicians we deserve, it really does say something unpleasant about us that we have this shower.
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    Roger said:

    At first I thought this was tongue in cheek until I realised who the author was. Among the general public I can't think of a more unpopular politician than Osborne, most of them divide opinion, he doesn't.

    I think the tide has turned on Osborne's unpopularity. When the public became aquainted with the rest of the freaks circus Osborne began to look significantly more attractive
    Its so obvious you live abroad mate, I can't think of another poster so completely out of touch with public opinion. 99% of people have zero interest in Osborne, the other 1% think he's a narcissistic berk.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 7,736
    Roger said:

    Maybe Minister for sport if the position still exists...

    On the basis of his skill in all forms of jogging?

    How about a new post - Minister for Domestic Affairs? He can screw up there to his heart's content.

    I'll get my coat...
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 24,907
    "Commit billions of pounds ... to save her Premiership". Long live the magic money tree. Always there to save the careers of Tory PMs, if not to help the poorest and most vulnerable.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 1,840

    At first I thought this was tongue in cheek until I realised who the author was. Among the general public I can't think of a more unpopular politician than Osborne, most of them divide opinion, he doesn't.

    Speaking personally, I've rather warmed to him since he left office.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 15,017
    Offtopic, but Lewis Hamilton is priced between 12/1 and 14/1 at most bookies for the BBC Sports Personality of the Year award. Huge value there, and ditto Chris Froome at 6/1 or 7/1.

    Anthony Joshua shouldn’t be the 4/9 and 2/5 prices that’s driving everyone else down.

    https://www.oddschecker.com/awards/sports-personality-of-the-year/winner
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 15,092

    "Commit billions of pounds ... to save her Premiership". Long live the magic money tree. Always there to save the careers of Tory PMs, if not to help the poorest and most vulnerable.

    It's really not hard. The billions she won't have to write a cheque for to Brussels.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 3,048
    You don't bring back Osborne for vision - you bring him back because he is a winner.

    But I see no reason why Osborne would want to save May when he probably thinks many in the Cabinet would do a better job than her.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 27,511

    At first I thought this was tongue in cheek until I realised who the author was. Among the general public I can't think of a more unpopular politician than Osborne, most of them divide opinion, he doesn't.

    Speaking personally, I've rather warmed to him since he left office.
    It's always easier to warm to people after they have left office.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,364
    ydoethur said:

    I don't think too many people are that fussed by the politics soap opera at the moment. Support for the Tories isn't collapsing and they still have all the cards they need to win next time. The public will be pleased to get a new face, but that is best left to the run up to the next vote.

    The biggest risk they face is Labour coming out against Brexit. That will give a lot of people a reason to vote for Labour who have never done so before.

    The problem with that narrative is that actually, as we saw in the last election, Europe is not an issue that decides many people's votes. Anyone who was passionately pro-Remain had the option of voting for the Liberal Democrats, who have maybe one safe seat, and a number already voted Labour despite the fact that Labour were emphatically for out at the election. If it had been decisive, the Liberal Democrats would have won Islington and the Conservatives would have swept Stoke and Sunderland.

    I don't think that Labour could win on a 'stay in' vote. They might be able to win on a 'go back in' vote if Brexit is as disastrous as we are all now expecting, but that wouldn't be an easy sell in the north and I very much doubt if Corbyn, still less Macdonnnell would ever make it.

    It's the domestic narratives that will decide the next election. The problem for the Tories is that after four years of Brexit naval gazing they will have no good story to tell on that. The problem for Labour is that they also have no story to tell as they are still obsessing over points of dogma rather than working out coherent policy. That's how their recent conference ended up announcing hat they would both abolish PFI in the NHS and extend it.

    As a country if we get the politicians we deserve, it really does say something unpleasant that we have this shower.
    Labour gained seats in June by largely ignoring Europe as an issue.

    They will need a policy when they take power, but do not need to form one yet. Things are too changeable. They can afford to wait until the next election.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 4,176

    Roger said:

    At first I thought this was tongue in cheek until I realised who the author was. Among the general public I can't think of a more unpopular politician than Osborne, most of them divide opinion, he doesn't.

    I think the tide has turned on Osborne's unpopularity. When the public became aquainted with the rest of the freaks circus Osborne began to look significantly more attractive
    Its so obvious you live abroad mate, I can't think of another poster so completely out of touch with public opinion. 99% of people have zero interest in Osborne, the other 1% think he's a narcissistic berk.
    Have you got a source for that data or is I just made up?

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 25,849

    "Commit billions of pounds ... to save her Premiership". Long live the magic money tree. Always there to save the careers of Tory PMs, if not to help the poorest and most vulnerable.

    Haven't many been complaining for ages that if you are serious about negotiating you've also got to show you're willing to walk away?

    Of course all stories are spun into 'save her premiership' even ones that might, on their own merits be 'good ideas'.....
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 27,511

    ydoethur said:

    I don't think too many people are that fussed by the politics soap opera at the moment. Support for the Tories isn't collapsing and they still have all the cards they need to win next time. The public will be pleased to get a new face, but that is best left to the run up to the next vote.

    The biggest risk they face is Labour coming out against Brexit. That will give a lot of people a reason to vote for Labour who have never done so before.

    The problem with that narrative is that actually, as we saw in the last election, Europe is not an issue that decides many people's votes. Anyone who was passionately pro-Remain had the option of voting for the Liberal Democrats, who have maybe one safe seat, and a number already voted Labour despite the fact that Labour were emphatically for out at the election. If it had been decisive, the Liberal Democrats would have won Islington and the Conservatives would have swept Stoke and Sunderland.

    I don't think that Labour could win on a 'stay in' vote. They might be able to win on a 'go back in' vote if Brexit is as disastrous as we are all now expecting, but that wouldn't be an easy sell in the north and I very much doubt if Corbyn, still less Macdonnnell would ever make it.

    It's the domestic narratives that will decide the next election. The problem for the Tories is that after four years of Brexit naval gazing they will have no good story to tell on that. The problem for Labour is that they also have no story to tell as they are still obsessing over points of dogma rather than working out coherent policy. That's how their recent conference ended up announcing hat they would both abolish PFI in the NHS and extend it.

    As a country if we get the politicians we deserve, it really does say something unpleasant that we have this shower.
    Labour gained seats in June by largely ignoring Europe as an issue.

    They will need a policy when they take power, but do not need to form one yet. Things are too changeable. They can afford to wait until the next election.
    They had a policy on Europe in June, it just wasn't as big a focus, but that's not the same as not having a policy.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,364

    "Commit billions of pounds ... to save her Premiership". Long live the magic money tree. Always there to save the careers of Tory PMs, if not to help the poorest and most vulnerable.

    It's really not hard. The billions she won't have to write a cheque for to Brussels.
    Except these billions are now, while Theresa has promised to keep paying into the EU until at least 2021.
  • MJWMJW Posts: 230
    What Osborne's good at: political strategy, getting under the opposition's skin to the extent they make mistakes.

    Neither of these will be particularly useful at the moment. Brexit leaves the Tories little room for manoeuvre on the strategy front - they have to somehow get a deal that appeases the frothing fantasists in her party while not wrecking the economy and the country. That may be impossible, but if it is achievable it dictates all political and economic strategy and leaves a very narrow path. That would leave Osborne with little that he was able to do, other than on the attack front. Which brings us to the opposition, Corbyn's die is cast, for good or ill. The one thing he could do is beef up the Tories' economic attack operation, but that's something that was glaringly obvious anyway and is hampered by the fact that Brexit has made the Tories own spending plans moot.

    Short of him helping the Tories' doing the sensible thing and digging themselves out of the Brexit mess before it's too late, there's little he can bring to the table. Nor would he probably want too, unless given the opportunity to do so. Which ain't gonna happen as it would split the party.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,364
    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    I don't think too many people are that fussed by the politics soap opera at the moment. Support for the Tories isn't collapsing and they still have all the cards they need to win next time. The public will be pleased to get a new face, but that is best left to the run up to the next vote.

    The biggest risk they face is Labour coming out against Brexit. That will give a lot of people a reason to vote for Labour who have never done so before.

    The problem with that narrative is that actually, as we saw in the last election, Europe is not an issue that decides many people's votes. Anyone who was passionately pro-Remain had the option of voting for the Liberal Democrats, who have maybe one safe seat, and a number already voted Labour despite the fact that Labour were emphatically for out at the election. If it had been decisive, the Liberal Democrats would have won Islington and the Conservatives would have swept Stoke and Sunderland.

    I don't think that Labour could win on a 'stay in' vote. They might be able to win on a 'go back in' vote if Brexit is as disastrous as we are all now expecting, but that wouldn't be an easy sell in the north and I very much doubt if Corbyn, still less Macdonnnell would ever make it.

    It's the domestic narratives that will decide the next election. The problem for the Tories is that after four years of Brexit naval gazing they will have no good story to tell on that. The problem for Labour is that they also have no story to tell as they are still obsessing over points of dogma rather than working out coherent policy. That's how their recent conference ended up announcing hat they would both abolish PFI in the NHS and extend it.

    As a country if we get the politicians we deserve, it really does say something unpleasant that we have this shower.
    Labour gained seats in June by largely ignoring Europe as an issue.

    They will need a policy when they take power, but do not need to form one yet. Things are too changeable. They can afford to wait until the next election.
    They had a policy on Europe in June, it just wasn't as big a focus, but that's not the same as not having a policy.
    They did, but they do not have to stick to it now.

    Mind you, the Tories do not seem to feel obliged to stick to any of their "winning" manifesto.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 39,546
    Mr. Sandpit, interesting SPOTY suggestions.

    Mr. Observer, billions are only available to throw at the EU :p
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 27,511
    Oh gods, it just won't stop - secssionist poll in Brazil this time, albeit not as a precursor to a declaration.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-41541063
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 1,778
    TSE hits the nail on the head re Johnson where the brain,however sizeable,is only the second favourite organ and the problem with him is that he thinks with his favourite one too.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 24,907

    "Commit billions of pounds ... to save her Premiership". Long live the magic money tree. Always there to save the careers of Tory PMs, if not to help the poorest and most vulnerable.

    It's really not hard. The billions she won't have to write a cheque for to Brussels.

    If that were the case she'd have been preparing already.

  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 1,840
    kle4 said:

    At first I thought this was tongue in cheek until I realised who the author was. Among the general public I can't think of a more unpopular politician than Osborne, most of them divide opinion, he doesn't.

    Speaking personally, I've rather warmed to him since he left office.
    It's always easier to warm to people after they have left office.
    Possibly, but in my case there are many for whom I wouldn't say that's (Major and Blair for a start).
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 7,736
    rkrkrk said:

    You don't bring back Osborne for vision - you bring him back because he is a winner.

    But I see no reason why Osborne would want to save May when he probably thinks many in the Cabinet would do a better job than her.

    Hmmmm.

    If we take the TSE metric of over 50% as a win, then he won one election by the grace of another party imploding. This was out of two. He also lost the only referendum in which he was heavily involved. That's not really the profile of a 'winner'.

    Osborne' key problem is that he can't appear to deal with his changed status. As Chancellor in the coalition, he was forever leaking to his mates in the Telegraph how he was the real deputy Prime Minister and Hague and Clegg were just there for show. Then came 2015 and suddenly he was Deputy to Cameron and heir apparent de jure and de facto, everything he had dreamed of. Then came the referendum, he came up with Project Fear - and it all blew up in his face.

    It's his behaviour since then that suggests May was right about him. If he had accepted that he screwed up, reminded himself that at 46 he was still younger than any twentieth century PM other than Blair, got his head down and worked on major projects from the backbenches - the northern powerhouse perhaps, or sitting on the board of Shelter and learning about real people's lives and problems, while offering passive support to May, he would now almost certainly be the Prime Minister. Because he hasn't the humility to accept his failings, he's just run a nasty, personal and less than scrupulously honest campaign against someone who beat him to the prize and then had the nerve to tell him some home truths. In doing so, he may be damaging May but he is destroying himself. He is busily filling that second grave you dig before heading off to take revenge with the corpse of his political career and reputation and he doesn't even appear to realise it.

    Such a person would not make a good PM, and he shouldn't be returned to the Cabinet. He had his chance, and he didn't so much blow it as throw it into the path of an oncoming hurricane while firing RPGs at it for good measure.
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    Roger said:

    At first I thought this was tongue in cheek until I realised who the author was. Among the general public I can't think of a more unpopular politician than Osborne, most of them divide opinion, he doesn't.

    I think the tide has turned on Osborne's unpopularity. When the public became aquainted with the rest of the freaks circus Osborne began to look significantly more attractive
    Its so obvious you live abroad mate, I can't think of another poster so completely out of touch with public opinion. 99% of people have zero interest in Osborne, the other 1% think he's a narcissistic berk.
    Have you got a source for that data or is I just made up?

    Its an opinion, as owner of the site I thought you encouraged them.
  • calumcalum Posts: 2,852

    "Commit billions of pounds ... to save her Premiership". Long live the magic money tree. Always there to save the careers of Tory PMs, if not to help the poorest and most vulnerable.

    It's really not hard. The billions she won't have to write a cheque for to Brussels.
    Except these billions are now, while Theresa has promised to keep paying into the EU until at least 2021.
    TM's magic money forest
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 25,849
    Roger said:

    At first I thought this was tongue in cheek until I realised who the author was. Among the general public I can't think of a more unpopular politician than Osborne, most of them divide opinion, he doesn't.

    I think the tide has turned on Osborne's unpopularity. When the public became aquainted with the rest of the freaks circus Osborne began to look significantly more attractive
    Outside London I suspect he's more or less sunk without trace.

    Didn't he used to be somebody?

    Was he the only politician booed at the Olympics?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 15,092
    rkrkrk said:

    You don't bring back Osborne for vision - you bring him back because he is a winner.

    But I see no reason why Osborne would want to save May when he probably thinks many in the Cabinet would do a better job than her.

    That "winner" lost the Referendum and consequently, got the UK out the EU. Quite a CV....

    Nobody, whether May or her successor, should want someone near the levers of power who could read the public mood so badly.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 878
    A couple of interesting points I've come across this morning, where are the post-conference opinion polls. Normally the DTM are full of the "bounce" that parties and their respective leaders have achieved levels of popularity never seen since Boudicca took on those nasty people from Italy...

    Meanwhile, seems the EU commission are in serious talks with the Labour Party officials as they want assurances that an imminent Labour Government won't tear up any agreements already made:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-negotiators-talks-labour-theresa-may-government-collapse-jeremy-corbyn-michel-barnier-a7987806.html
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 27,511

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    I don't think too many people are that fussed by the politics soap opera at the moment. Support for the Tories isn't collapsing and they still have all the cards they need to win next time. The public will be pleased to get a new face, but that is best left to the run up to the next vote.

    The biggest risk they face is Labour coming out against Brexit. That will give a lot of people a reason to vote for Labour who have never done so before.

    The problem with that narrative is that actually, as we saw in the last election, Europe is not an issue that decides many people's votes. Anyone who was passionately pro-Remain had the option of voting for the Liberal Democrats, who have maybe one safe seat, and a number already voted Labour despite the fact that Labour were emphatically for out at the election. If it had been decisive, the Liberal Democrats would have won Islington and the Conservatives would have swept Stoke and Sunderland.

    I don't think that Labour could win on a 'stay in' vt be able to win on a 'go back in' vote if Brexit is as disastrous as we are all now expecting, but that wouldn't be an easy sell in the north and I very much doubt if Corbyn, still less Macdonnnell would ever make it.

    It's the domestic narratives

    As a country if we get the politicians we deserve, it really does say something unpleasant that we have this shower.
    Labour gained seats in June by largely ignoring Europe as an issue.

    They will need a policy when they take power, but do not need to form one yet. Things are too changeable. They can afford to wait until the next election.
    They had a policy on Europe in June, it just wasn't as big a focus, but that's not the same as not having a policy.
    They did, but they do not have to stick to it now.

    Mind you, the Tories do not seem to feel obliged to stick to any of their "winning" manifesto.
    Well for starters just because anyone who points out they were the most popular single party in june is right does not mean those who say they won are not overstating things. Secondly, governments go back on manifestos all the time, and often they should do even when they don't given circumstances change. Thirdly I never said labour are obliged to follow the policy they had mere months ago, but merely pointed out they did have one, and parties should explain why they change position, particular if it is a significant reversal. Fourthly, parties can try to pretend they are remaining consistent, or slip a change in under the radar, but would be more worthy of respect if they didn't, and should be called out if they do, like Tories adopting ed M's price cap policy, or a variant thereof, when the very principle had been attacked.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 39,546
    Mr. kle4, I think its a fortnight until Veneto and Lombardy have a legal referendum on increased autonomy (there's also an independence drive for Venice and its environs).

    It may be that fragmentation of nations is a side-effect of increased globalisation. Perhaps people with local loyalty and identity still feel that strongly, but wider identity of nationhood is slipping away (at least when there's a significant local sense of belonging).
  • PongPong Posts: 4,564
    edited October 8
    Amusing interview with a confused and bruised tory MEP Richard Ashworth on 5live.

    Paranoid whips being a little overzealous, perhaps?

    I'm not convinced they even realised it happened until the express picked it up.
  • SirBenjaminSirBenjamin Posts: 123
    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    I don't think too many people are that fussed by the politics soap opera at the moment. Support for the Tories isn't collapsing and they still have all the cards they need to win next time. The public will be pleased to get a new face, but that is best left to the run up to the next vote.

    The biggest risk they face is Labour coming out against Brexit. That will give a lot of people a reason to vote for Labour who have never done so before.

    The problem with that narrative is that actually, as we saw in the last election, Europe is not an issue that decides many people's votes. Anyone who was passionately pro-Remain had the option of voting for the Liberal Democrats, who have maybe one safe seat, and a number already voted Labour despite the fact that Labour were emphatically for out at the election. If it had been decisive, the Liberal Democrats would have won Islington and the Conservatives would have swept Stoke and Sunderland.

    I don't think that Labour could win on a 'stay in' vote. They might be able to win on a 'go back in' vote if Brexit is as disastrous as we are all now expecting, but that wouldn't be an easy sell in the north and I very much doubt if Corbyn, still less Macdonnnell would ever make it.

    It's the domestic narratives that will decide the next election. The problem for the Tories is that after four years of Brexit naval gazing they will have no good story to tell on that. The problem for Labour is that they also have no story to tell as they are still obsessing over points of dogma rather than working out coherent policy. That's how their recent conference ended up announcing hat they would both abolish PFI in the NHS and extend it.

    As a country if we get the politicians we deserve, it really does say something unpleasant that we have this shower.
    Labour gained seats in June by largely ignoring Europe as an issue.

    They will need a policy when they take power, but do not need to form one yet. Things are too changeable. They can afford to wait until the next election.
    They had a policy on Europe in June, it just wasn't as big a focus, but that's not the same as not having a policy.

    They offered a sort of 'Schrodinger's Brexit' policy, allowing gullible and uninformed student Remainer types to believe they were massively anti-Brexit, while simultaneously emphasising the 'we're definitely leaving so, you can come back to us now' message to all the WWC Lab-UKIP-Lab Leaver switchers in the Midlands and North.

    I know an ardent Remainer who firmly believes Corbyn is 'one of them', and who voted for Kate Hoey in Vauxhall without even the slightest sense of incongruity...

    (Oh, and I'm largely an Osborne fan, but this article is a pile of fanciful ocelot poo.)
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 1,840
    kle4 said:

    Oh gods, it just won't stop - secssionist poll in Brazil this time, albeit not as a precursor to a declaration.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-41541063

    Interesting one. I've always felt it's only winning the world cup every twenty years or so that has kept the South in Brazil. Perhaps if they win again in Russia that will be the end of it.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 15,092

    "Commit billions of pounds ... to save her Premiership". Long live the magic money tree. Always there to save the careers of Tory PMs, if not to help the poorest and most vulnerable.

    It's really not hard. The billions she won't have to write a cheque for to Brussels.
    Except these billions are now, while Theresa has promised to keep paying into the EU until at least 2021.
    Well, only if they respond to her olive branch. No sign yet that they are.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 7,736
    OchEye said:

    A couple of interesting points I've come across this morning, where are the post-conference opinion polls. Normally the DTM are full of the "bounce" that parties and their respective leaders have achieved levels of popularity never seen since Boudicca took on those nasty people from Italy...

    Meanwhile, seems the EU commission are in serious talks with the Labour Party officials as they want assurances that an imminent Labour Government won't tear up any agreements already made:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-negotiators-talks-labour-theresa-may-government-collapse-jeremy-corbyn-michel-barnier-a7987806.html

    We will probably have to wait a week or so to see what happens after the Tory debacle sinks in, although it is interesting to note that Labour are still rising fractionally after their total shambles of a conference.

    The thing is that parties are currently so polarised there isn't a lot of room for switching between them at this time. Meanwhile because each party is so hated by the other side moving to a minor party that better matches your views feels like something of a luxury. So it's unlikely we'll see much movement in the polls for the moment. If a 15 point gap opens up that would be surprising and might bring about the end of May, but more likely we'll bumble about with MoE for a bit.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 3,048

    rkrkrk said:

    You don't bring back Osborne for vision - you bring him back because he is a winner.

    But I see no reason why Osborne would want to save May when he probably thinks many in the Cabinet would do a better job than her.

    That "winner" lost the Referendum and consequently, got the UK out the EU. Quite a CV....

    Nobody, whether May or her successor, should want someone near the levers of power who could read the public mood so badly.
    Compare and contrast the 2015 and 2017 Tory campaigns.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 39,546
    Mr. rkrkrk, surely 2017 and any other campaign of the last few decades?

    The 2017 Conservative campaign was simply atrocious, and stupid. And entirely preventable. Getting caught out by an ambush is understandable, except when you're the one springing it.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 3,048

    Roger said:

    At first I thought this was tongue in cheek until I realised who the author was. Among the general public I can't think of a more unpopular politician than Osborne, most of them divide opinion, he doesn't.

    I think the tide has turned on Osborne's unpopularity. When the public became aquainted with the rest of the freaks circus Osborne began to look significantly more attractive
    Outside London I suspect he's more or less sunk without trace.

    Didn't he used to be somebody?

    Was he the only politician booed at the Olympics?
    Was Mandelson popular?

    I don't think it matters whether Osborne is popular - what matters is clearly TM ran a horrible election campaign. Osborne, despite a woeful economic track record, won in 2015 by focusing on the economy. That result looks even more impressive with hindsight.

    There are probably others in Conservatives who could play a similar role and wth less baggage, but clearly TM would benefit from his advice.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 25,849
    I have watched the Conservative Party manoeuvrings of recent weeks with increasing dismay and have been saddened to see the news dominated by those who have been driven by their own personal agenda.

    Their behaviour does nothing to repair the battered reputation of politics. It is not what our country wants or needs – nor does it serve it well. Politics is not a game. Government even less so. Their conduct has undermined their own party, their own Prime Minister, and their own Government. It is profoundly unbecoming and it must stop.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-4959158/A-blistering-intervention-SIR-JOHN-MAJOR.html#ixzz4utyi8UsQ

    Who could Sir John mean?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 7,736

    Mr. rkrkrk, surely 2017 and any other campaign of the last few decades?

    The 2017 Conservative campaign was simply atrocious, and stupid. And entirely preventable. Getting caught out by an ambush is understandable, except when you're the one springing it.

    Comparable perhaps to Labour's campaign in 1992? Marked by complacency, incompetence and a total policy muddle?

    However, Labour had a far weaker hand in 1992 than May in 2017. Corbyn was officially on their side, for a start.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 3,048

    Mr. rkrkrk, surely 2017 and any other campaign of the last few decades?

    The 2017 Conservative campaign was simply atrocious, and stupid. And entirely preventable. Getting caught out by an ambush is understandable, except when you're the one springing it.

    Yes - most could do better.
    But 2015 really very impressive - sitting government, missing economic forecasts, no wage growth, gains seats and wins majority.

    TM will need the same in the face of similar or greater adverse conditions I suspect.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 25,849
    rkrkrk said:

    Roger said:

    At first I thought this was tongue in cheek until I realised who the author was. Among the general public I can't think of a more unpopular politician than Osborne, most of them divide opinion, he doesn't.

    I think the tide has turned on Osborne's unpopularity. When the public became aquainted with the rest of the freaks circus Osborne began to look significantly more attractive
    Outside London I suspect he's more or less sunk without trace.

    Didn't he used to be somebody?

    Was he the only politician booed at the Olympics?
    TM would benefit from his advice.
    Could you work with someone who wanted to see your dismembered body in his freezer?

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 15,017
    ydoethur said:

    rkrkrk said:

    You don't bring back Osborne for vision - you bring him back because he is a winner.

    But I see no reason why Osborne would want to save May when he probably thinks many in the Cabinet would do a better job than her.

    Hmmmm.

    If we take the TSE metric of over 50% as a win, then he won one election by the grace of another party imploding. This was out of two. He also lost the only referendum in which he was heavily involved. That's not really the profile of a 'winner'.

    Osborne' key problem is that he can't appear to deal with his changed status. As Chancellor in the coalition, he was forever leaking to his mates in the Telegraph how he was the real deputy Prime Minister and Hague and Clegg were just there for show. Then came 2015 and suddenly he was Deputy to Cameron and heir apparent de jure and de facto, everything he had dreamed of. Then came the referendum, he came up with Project Fear - and it all blew up in his face.

    It's his behaviour since then that suggests May was right about him. If he had accepted that he screwed up, reminded himself that at 46 he was still younger than any twentieth century PM other than Blair, got his head down and worked on major projects from the backbenches - the northern powerhouse perhaps, or sitting on the board of Shelter and learning about real people's lives and problems, while offering passive support to May, he would now almost certainly be the Prime Minister. Because he hasn't the humility to accept his failings, he's just run a nasty, personal and less than scrupulously honest campaign against someone who beat him to the prize and then had the nerve to tell him some home truths. In doing so, he may be damaging May but he is destroying himself. He is busily filling that second grave you dig before heading off to take revenge with the corpse of his political career and reputation and he doesn't even appear to realise it.

    Such a person would not make a good PM, and he shouldn't be returned to the Cabinet. He had his chance, and he didn't so much blow it as throw it into the path of an oncoming hurricane while firing RPGs at it for good measure.
    :+1:
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,364
    George's political career is over. He seems to realise that, and is enjoying his reinvention as a Newspaper man.

    Tories casting around for a saviour, and a scapegoat, but not getting either is how it looks to me.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 24,907
    I remember those days, not too long ago, when David Smith was a PB Tory favourite. He has fewer fans now, I suspect:
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/david-smith-economic-outlook-still-clueless-on-brexit-and-its-taking-a-toll-8x5shg0l9?shareToken=376b18d01dce1114f0233d713c545788
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 27,511

    George's political career is over. He seems to realise that, and is enjoying his reinvention as a Newspaper man.

    Tories casting around for a saviour, and a scapegoat, but not getting either is how it looks to me.

    Not everyone is so lucky as to get the second coming of Jesus to lead them so they can praise his name.
This discussion has been closed.