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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » New “media trust” polling finds the BBC top and the Sun bottom

SystemSystem Posts: 3,967
edited November 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » New “media trust” polling finds the BBC top and the Sun bottom

I’m sure people will correct meif I’m wrong but I think this polling is a first. We see from time to time several different forms of “trust” polling but as far as I can recall these latest findings from Ipsos MORI covering broadcast, the press and the internet is new.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 3,459
    So paradoxically the British public know more than they're given credit for.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 42,097
    But what about RT ?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 25,664
    edited November 2017
    Pulpstar said:

    But what about RT ?

    It scored a 9.9...
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 16,538
    Just more evidence of leftie's indefatigable delusions and their virtue signalling.

    "My C4 news selection and choice of newspaper is infallable !"

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 7,510
    FPT:
    HHemmelig said:

    tlg86 said:

    HHemmelig said:

    tlg86 said:

    In 5000BC, Britain had a population of maybe 6,000.
    In 1500AD, England had a population of 2 million or so.
    In 1801, England had a population of just under 8 million.
    In 1901, England had a population of just over 30 million.
    In 2001, England had a population of a touch under 50 million.

    I don't see any reason why England is full at its present 55 million or so, any more than it was full at any of those previous dates.

    Fine, but most of that increase happened before the welfare state. I could have been persuaded to vote stay in the EU had Cameron and Osborne put forward a big scaling back of the welfare state. That is, you can have as much immigration as you like, so long as my taxes aren't spent on housing benefit.
    Under your scenario the immigrants would still flood in, but would be living in shanty towns and in shop doorways instead of houses. I'd rather pay housing benefit than have that happen in my country. Rough sleeping is already massively worse than a few years ago, as anyone living/working around London can see on a daily basis.
    So we're paying massive housing benefits in London and still have rough sleepers (I wonder why it's increased so much in the last few year's, btw?)
    Unless you are prepared to see families with children routinely sleeping on the street there is no way around paying housing benefit or providing them with social housing. The current level of rough sleeping partly reflects councils increasingly refusing any responsibility for housing homeless single males. We lack the money, manpower and infrastructure to deport Romanian beggars and I highly doubt Brexit will change that in any way; they prefer to be on the streets of London than Bucharest and annoying as that is, we are stuck with them Brexit or not.
    I don't want to see families sleeping on the streets, but I don't see why anyone should have the right to live in London. If it weren't for the fact that I'm able to live at home with my parents in Woking, I'd have nothing to do with London.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 7,510
    On topic, why is the BBC logo shown rather than just the letters?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,509
    BBC News is brilliant. Love that the Sun is less trusted than Twitter. No wonder Rupert is worried.
  • tlg86 said:

    On topic, why is the BBC logo shown rather than just the letters?

    This is an Ipsos-MORI chart and I guess they felt that it would look nice.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 7,510
    edited November 2017
    Jonathan said:

    BBC News is brilliant. Love that the Sun is less trusted than Twitter. No wonder Rupert is worried.

    It would be more interesting to know the opinions of those who actually read/watch the actual news source.
  • Jonathan said:

    BBC News is brilliant. Love that the Sun is less trusted than Twitter. No wonder Rupert is worried.

    I doubt he is worried. His worldwide his businesses are still going super strong and he is already well diversified away from dead tree press that is dying.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 4,234
    It doesn't make much sense to compare the reliability of BBC news vs twitter, the latter being just a medium for sources including - OMG paradox alert - @BBCNews. I find that BBC News is best for the big picture things they would be pushed to lie about - e.g. plane flies into tower - and for the fine detail a highly skeptical top up from twitter and other sources (including comments on here).
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,527
    edited November 2017

    So paradoxically the British public know more than they're given credit for.

    I'm not so sure. The Mail scores 4.2. But apart from that and the Telegraph being taken seriously by 5.7 I'd go along with all the rest. ITV scores too highly but it tries to be accurate
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 7,510

    tlg86 said:

    On topic, why is the BBC logo shown rather than just the letters?

    This is an Ipsos-MORI chart and I guess they felt that it would look nice.
    An odd thing to do. It could lead someone to think that the poll was commissioned by the BBC.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,509

    Jonathan said:

    BBC News is brilliant. Love that the Sun is less trusted than Twitter. No wonder Rupert is worried.

    I doubt he is worried. His worldwide his businesses are still going super strong and he is already well diversified away from dead tree press that is dying.
    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/nov/16/rupert-murdoch-newspapers-struggling-digital-age
  • Ishmael_Z said:

    It doesn't make much sense to compare the reliability of BBC news vs twitter, the latter being just a medium for sources including - OMG paradox alert - @BBCNews. I find that BBC News is best for the big picture things they would be pushed to lie about - e.g. plane flies into tower - and for the fine detail a highly skeptical top up from twitter and other sources (including comments on here).

    I find the BBC is better balanced just as Sky has turned towards the left and very pro remain

  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    BBC News is brilliant. Love that the Sun is less trusted than Twitter. No wonder Rupert is worried.

    I doubt he is worried. His worldwide his businesses are still going super strong and he is already well diversified away from dead tree press that is dying.
    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/nov/16/rupert-murdoch-newspapers-struggling-digital-age
    Papers and Sky are a minor part of his business and he has already threatened to close down Sky
  • Unsurprising this, The Sun was responsible for the greatest modern day blood libel when they smeared and smeared again Liverpool fans.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 25,664
    edited November 2017
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    BBC News is brilliant. Love that the Sun is less trusted than Twitter. No wonder Rupert is worried.

    I doubt he is worried. His worldwide his businesses are still going super strong and he is already well diversified away from dead tree press that is dying.
    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/nov/16/rupert-murdoch-newspapers-struggling-digital-age
    Yes....his newspapers, which is what I said...21st Century Fox is going great guns.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    BBC News is brilliant. Love that the Sun is less trusted than Twitter. No wonder Rupert is worried.

    I doubt he is worried. His worldwide his businesses are still going super strong and he is already well diversified away from dead tree press that is dying.
    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/nov/16/rupert-murdoch-newspapers-struggling-digital-age
    Papers and Sky are a minor part of his business and he has already threatened to close down Sky
    No it isn't and no he didn't.

    You're mistaking Sky News for Sky.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    BBC News is brilliant. Love that the Sun is less trusted than Twitter. No wonder Rupert is worried.

    I doubt he is worried. His worldwide his businesses are still going super strong and he is already well diversified away from dead tree press that is dying.
    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/nov/16/rupert-murdoch-newspapers-struggling-digital-age
    Papers and Sky are a minor part of his business and he has already threatened to close down Sky
    No it isn't and no he didn't.

    You're mistaking Sky News for Sky.
    Corrected - it is Sky news that is under threat of closure, not Sky
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 20,623

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    BBC News is brilliant. Love that the Sun is less trusted than Twitter. No wonder Rupert is worried.

    I doubt he is worried. His worldwide his businesses are still going super strong and he is already well diversified away from dead tree press that is dying.
    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/nov/16/rupert-murdoch-newspapers-struggling-digital-age
    Papers and Sky are a minor part of his business and he has already threatened to close down Sky
    (Sky News, rather than all of Sky!)
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 3,244

    So paradoxically the British public know more than they're given credit for.

    I would quibble with them on Twitter (given what we know about Russian bots it should be very low) but otherwise their ordering looks good to me.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    BBC News is brilliant. Love that the Sun is less trusted than Twitter. No wonder Rupert is worried.

    I doubt he is worried. His worldwide his businesses are still going super strong and he is already well diversified away from dead tree press that is dying.
    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/nov/16/rupert-murdoch-newspapers-struggling-digital-age
    Papers and Sky are a minor part of his business and he has already threatened to close down Sky
    (Sky News, rather than all of Sky!)
    Good to be corrected
  • TomsToms Posts: 1,453
    At its best the World Service is truly fine. I have it on all night sometimes and especially at four and five am on the Radio four VHF frequency---this on fifties vintage valve radios. I wish they'd come back to medium wave all day.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,527
    edited November 2017

    Ishmael_Z said:

    It doesn't make much sense to compare the reliability of BBC news vs twitter, the latter being just a medium for sources including - OMG paradox alert - @BBCNews. I find that BBC News is best for the big picture things they would be pushed to lie about - e.g. plane flies into tower - and for the fine detail a highly skeptical top up from twitter and other sources (including comments on here).

    I find the BBC is better balanced just as Sky has turned towards the left and very pro remain

    Trust and bias are not the same thing. Bias is subjective trust is a belief that what they say is to be relied on. Everyone knows the BBC are reluctant to announce anything unless it's researched and verified. The Sun twists the news to suit their agenda.

    Rather like advertisers but without the rules
  • Fucking hell, Leave.EU aren't even pretending to hide their anti-semitism now.

  • Roger said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    It doesn't make much sense to compare the reliability of BBC news vs twitter, the latter being just a medium for sources including - OMG paradox alert - @BBCNews. I find that BBC News is best for the big picture things they would be pushed to lie about - e.g. plane flies into tower - and for the fine detail a highly skeptical top up from twitter and other sources (including comments on here).

    I find the BBC is better balanced just as Sky has turned towards the left and very pro remain

    Trust and bias are not the same thing. Bias is subjective trust is a belief that what they say is to be relied on. Everyone knows the BBC are reluctant to announce anything unless it's researched and verified. The Sun twists the news to suit their agenda.

    Rather like advertisers but without the rules
    Most newspapers twist the news to suit their agenda to be fair
  • King Salman of Saudi Arabia is planning to step down next week and name his son Prince Mohammed bin Salman as his successor

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5089229/Saudi-Arabia-king-set-hand-crown-son.html
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,509
    edited November 2017
    If would be great if the right learned to love the BBC as one of UK PLCs greatest assets.
  • Jonathan said:

    If would be great if the right learned to love the BBC as one of UK PLCs greatest assets.

    Don't you mean worshipped
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 18,176
    It's interesting that the top three are mainly audio-visual presences, and not textual media. It's almost as though people trust what they see over what they read.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 4,419
    FPT re Grenfell:

    BBC news front page is prominently reporting 71 dead.

    Per BBC report:

    "The original missing persons list was also made higher by fraudulent cases, police said, with some individuals attempting to benefit financially from the tragedy.

    There are a number of ongoing fraud investigations, and earlier this month one man pleaded guilty to fraud after claiming that his wife and son had both died in the fire."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42008279
  • It's interesting that the top three are mainly audio-visual presences, and not textual media. It's almost as though people trust what they see over what they read.

    Maybe it's more they watch than buy and read newsprint
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,509

    Jonathan said:

    If would be great if the right learned to love the BBC as one of UK PLCs greatest assets.

    Don't you mean worshipped
    Supported. Invested in. And benefitted from.
  • stevefstevef Posts: 622
    The right wing press is a disgrace, but Corbyn and his cronies try to dismiss any criticism by blaming media bias. It reminds me of Stalin blaming stories of murders in the Soviet Union on the capitalist western media (or indeed Trump's "Fake News") Their attacks on the BBC are pathetic.
  • Surprised how poorly Vice has scored. They aren't exactly Fake News.
  • MikeL said:

    FPT re Grenfell:

    BBC news front page is prominently reporting 71 dead.

    Per BBC report:

    "The original missing persons list was also made higher by fraudulent cases, police said, with some individuals attempting to benefit financially from the tragedy.

    There are a number of ongoing fraud investigations, and earlier this month one man pleaded guilty to fraud after claiming that his wife and son had both died in the fire."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42008279

    How low can you go
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 7,510

    It's interesting that the top three are mainly audio-visual presences, and not textual media. It's almost as though people trust what they see over what they read.

    Probably because TV is regulated. It has to, at least, appear/pretend to be balanced. I suspect most people know this subconsciously even if they don't know the law exists.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 3,463
    Evening all :)

    What score the RP (Racing Post ?) - would score a 9.9 with me.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 18,176
    Jonathan said:

    If would be great if the right learned to love the BBC as one of UK PLCs greatest assets.

    You see, that's where the problem is. I like the BBC. I don't begrudge paying the licence fee for one moment - it's great value.

    But that doesn't mean that I can't criticise it when I think it's going wrong. Loving it unconditionally means that everyone loses.
  • I cannot tell you how shocked I am that the side that used Nazi era propaganda posters during last year's referendum are now using well known anti-Semitic tropes.

    SHOCKED.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 20,623

    Fucking hell, Leave.EU aren't even pretending to hide their anti-semitism now.

    Well, if Putin doesn't like Soros, he must be bad.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 16,241

    I cannot tell you how shocked I am that the side that used Nazi era propaganda posters during last year's referendum are now using well known anti-Semitic tropes.

    SHOCKED.

    with posts like that I can see why the bus won
  • I am beginning to see my leftish moments more these days with the outrageous 450 million dollars for the painting of Christ, fawning over diamonds worth millions and the excess being promoted on tv with the christmas advertising.

    Having said that I will not be backing Jeremy or his side kick McDonnell anytime soon
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,509

    Jonathan said:

    If would be great if the right learned to love the BBC as one of UK PLCs greatest assets.

    You see, that's where the problem is. I like the BBC. I don't begrudge paying the licence fee for one moment - it's great value.

    But that doesn't mean that I can't criticise it when I think it's going wrong. Loving it unconditionally means that everyone loses.
    It needs to be put to work for UK PLC, not cut, regulated and restrained. It's one of the UK's digital success stories and few brands with global reach.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 7,510
    tlg86 said:
    Just noticed something hilarious. Look at the chart on slide four showing general impression/trust in the BBC since 2004.

    They have attributed the significant dip in late 2012 to the Jimmy Savile scandal. I'd suggest they might want to also note the Lord McAlpine case was around that time too.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    If would be great if the right learned to love the BBC as one of UK PLCs greatest assets.

    Don't you mean worshipped
    Supported. Invested in. And benefitted from.
    Are you the DG
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    If would be great if the right learned to love the BBC as one of UK PLCs greatest assets.

    You see, that's where the problem is. I like the BBC. I don't begrudge paying the licence fee for one moment - it's great value.

    But that doesn't mean that I can't criticise it when I think it's going wrong. Loving it unconditionally means that everyone loses.
    It needs to be put to work for UK PLC, not cut, regulated and restrained. It's one of the UK's digital success stories and few brands with global reach.
    If it is so good, it doesn't need the telly tax then, it will be able to stand on its own two feet.
  • I cannot tell you how shocked I am that the side that used Nazi era propaganda posters during last year's referendum are now using well known anti-Semitic tropes.

    SHOCKED.

    with posts like that I can see why the bus won
    I know you're from Ulster, but generally people in this country are opposed to racism, sectarianism, and bigotry.

    The Ulsterisation of British politics? NEVER! NEVER! NEVER!
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,509

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    If would be great if the right learned to love the BBC as one of UK PLCs greatest assets.

    You see, that's where the problem is. I like the BBC. I don't begrudge paying the licence fee for one moment - it's great value.

    But that doesn't mean that I can't criticise it when I think it's going wrong. Loving it unconditionally means that everyone loses.
    It needs to be put to work for UK PLC, not cut, regulated and restrained. It's one of the UK's digital success stories and few brands with global reach.
    If it is so good, it doesn't need the telly tax then, it will be able to stand on its own two feet.
    Right missing point as usual for dumb ideological reasons.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,509

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    If would be great if the right learned to love the BBC as one of UK PLCs greatest assets.

    Don't you mean worshipped
    Supported. Invested in. And benefitted from.
    Are you the DG
    Not yet.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 18,176
    tlg86 said:

    It's interesting that the top three are mainly audio-visual presences, and not textual media. It's almost as though people trust what they see over what they read.

    Probably because TV is regulated. It has to, at least, appear/pretend to be balanced. I suspect most people know this subconsciously even if they don't know the law exists.
    I think it's also 'a picture tells a thousand words'. If you see something, you believe it much more than you read it. A TV broadcast is many thousands pictures.

    Would Michael Buerk's reporting from Ethiopia in 1984 have had quite the same effect without the videos of the starving children?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 25,664
    edited November 2017
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    If would be great if the right learned to love the BBC as one of UK PLCs greatest assets.

    You see, that's where the problem is. I like the BBC. I don't begrudge paying the licence fee for one moment - it's great value.

    But that doesn't mean that I can't criticise it when I think it's going wrong. Loving it unconditionally means that everyone loses.
    It needs to be put to work for UK PLC, not cut, regulated and restrained. It's one of the UK's digital success stories and few brands with global reach.
    If it is so good, it doesn't need the telly tax then, it will be able to stand on its own two feet.
    Right missing point as usual for dumb ideological reasons.
    In all seriousness, my issue with the telly tax is it totally unenforceable in the 21st century. Even the "make you create an account for iplayer" baby steps does nothing to enforce it.

    They should be transitioning to a funding mechanism which is sustainable and enforceable.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,509

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    If would be great if the right learned to love the BBC as one of UK PLCs greatest assets.

    You see, that's where the problem is. I like the BBC. I don't begrudge paying the licence fee for one moment - it's great value.

    But that doesn't mean that I can't criticise it when I think it's going wrong. Loving it unconditionally means that everyone loses.
    It needs to be put to work for UK PLC, not cut, regulated and restrained. It's one of the UK's digital success stories and few brands with global reach.
    If it is so good, it doesn't need the telly tax then, it will be able to stand on its own two feet.
    Right missing point as usual for dumb ideological reasons.
    In all seriousness, my issue with the telly tax is it totally unenforceable in the 21st century. Even the "make you create an account for iplayer" baby steps does nothing to enforce it.

    They should be transitioning to a funding platform which is sustainable and enforceable.
    The BBC works. Tories used to believe if it ain't broke don't fix it.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    If would be great if the right learned to love the BBC as one of UK PLCs greatest assets.

    You see, that's where the problem is. I like the BBC. I don't begrudge paying the licence fee for one moment - it's great value.

    But that doesn't mean that I can't criticise it when I think it's going wrong. Loving it unconditionally means that everyone loses.
    It needs to be put to work for UK PLC, not cut, regulated and restrained. It's one of the UK's digital success stories and few brands with global reach.
    If it is so good, it doesn't need the telly tax then, it will be able to stand on its own two feet.
    Right missing point as usual for dumb ideological reasons.
    In all seriousness, my issue with the telly tax is it totally unenforceable in the 21st century. Even the "make you create an account for iplayer" baby steps does nothing to enforce it.

    They should be transitioning to a funding platform which is sustainable and enforceable.
    The BBC works. Tories used to believe if it ain't broke don't fix it.
    The funding mechanism is broken. I am not a Tory.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 18,176

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    If would be great if the right learned to love the BBC as one of UK PLCs greatest assets.

    You see, that's where the problem is. I like the BBC. I don't begrudge paying the licence fee for one moment - it's great value.

    But that doesn't mean that I can't criticise it when I think it's going wrong. Loving it unconditionally means that everyone loses.
    It needs to be put to work for UK PLC, not cut, regulated and restrained. It's one of the UK's digital success stories and few brands with global reach.
    If it is so good, it doesn't need the telly tax then, it will be able to stand on its own two feet.
    Right missing point as usual for dumb ideological reasons.
    In all seriousness, my issue with the telly tax is it totally unenforceable in the 21st century. Even the "make you create an account for iplayer" baby steps does nothing to enforce it.

    They should be transitioning to a funding platform which is sustainable and enforceable.
    +1.

    The government have delayed the inevitable with their recent changes, but the TV licence still unsustainable in the long term in anything like its current form.

    The public now have choice.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 16,241

    I cannot tell you how shocked I am that the side that used Nazi era propaganda posters during last year's referendum are now using well known anti-Semitic tropes.

    SHOCKED.

    with posts like that I can see why the bus won
    I know you're from Ulster, but generally people in this country are opposed to racism, sectarianism, and bigotry.

    The Ulsterisation of British politics? NEVER! NEVER! NEVER!
    Really ?

    In my many years in England Ive been called everything from Billy the Bigot to Brendan the Bomber. Usually by miiddle class twats who talk about diversity and racism.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 19,519

    I cannot tell you how shocked I am that the side that used Nazi era propaganda posters during last year's referendum are now using well known anti-Semitic tropes.

    SHOCKED.

    with posts like that I can see why the bus won
    I voted for Brexit in order to create the Fourth Reich.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,509

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    If would be great if the right learned to love the BBC as one of UK PLCs greatest assets.

    You see, that's where the problem is. I like the BBC. I don't begrudge paying the licence fee for one moment - it's great value.

    But that doesn't mean that I can't criticise it when I think it's going wrong. Loving it unconditionally means that everyone loses.
    It needs to be put to work for UK PLC, not cut, regulated and restrained. It's one of the UK's digital success stories and few brands with global reach.
    If it is so good, it doesn't need the telly tax then, it will be able to stand on its own two feet.
    Right missing point as usual for dumb ideological reasons.
    In all seriousness, my issue with the telly tax is it totally unenforceable in the 21st century. Even the "make you create an account for iplayer" baby steps does nothing to enforce it.

    They should be transitioning to a funding platform which is sustainable and enforceable.
    The BBC works. Tories used to believe if it ain't broke don't fix it.
    The funding mechanism is broken. I am not a Tory.
    Public seem quite happy.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 16,241
    Sean_F said:

    I cannot tell you how shocked I am that the side that used Nazi era propaganda posters during last year's referendum are now using well known anti-Semitic tropes.

    SHOCKED.

    with posts like that I can see why the bus won
    I voted for Brexit in order to create the Fourth Reich.
    youre simply a victim of Putins troll farms

    you know you really wanted to vote Remain
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 25,664
    edited November 2017
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    If would be great if the right learned to love the BBC as one of UK PLCs greatest assets.

    You see, that's where the problem is. I like the BBC. I don't begrudge paying the licence fee for one moment - it's great value.

    But that doesn't mean that I can't criticise it when I think it's going wrong. Loving it unconditionally means that everyone loses.
    It needs to be put to work for UK PLC, not cut, regulated and restrained. It's one of the UK's digital success stories and few brands with global reach.
    If it is so good, it doesn't need the telly tax then, it will be able to stand on its own two feet.
    Right missing point as usual for dumb ideological reasons.
    In all seriousness, my issue with the telly tax is it totally unenforceable in the 21st century. Even the "make you create an account for iplayer" baby steps does nothing to enforce it.

    They should be transitioning to a funding platform which is sustainable and enforceable.
    The BBC works. Tories used to believe if it ain't broke don't fix it.
    The funding mechanism is broken. I am not a Tory.
    Public seem quite happy.
    It is you who is missing the point. It isn't about who is happy, it is about securing long term sustainable funding. Ask the next generation of telly tax payers, students, if they pay for a tv licence...they have no need to...and they watch more and more via youtube, twitch etc.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 8,848
    BBC trust is high, but the dominance over local & national radio, internet & TV news is extraordinarily, I'm never comfortable with that.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 18,176
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    If would be great if the right learned to love the BBC as one of UK PLCs greatest assets.

    You see, that's where the problem is. I like the BBC. I don't begrudge paying the licence fee for one moment - it's great value.

    But that doesn't mean that I can't criticise it when I think it's going wrong. Loving it unconditionally means that everyone loses.
    It needs to be put to work for UK PLC, not cut, regulated and restrained. It's one of the UK's digital success stories and few brands with global reach.
    It's not a digital success story - far from it. Like the rise of the Dreadnoughts, digital is levelling the playing field and reducing the BBC's ability to win. And most people seem to argue only that it should be cut, regulated and restrained as much as its competition - and preferably funded as well. As the tragic case of Lord McAlpine shows, the BBC cannot be automaically trusted.

    Agree about the BBC's brand.
  • Fucking hell, Leave.EU aren't even pretending to hide their anti-semitism now.

    What has anti-Semitism got to do with that advert?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,509

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    If would be great if the right learned to love the BBC as one of UK PLCs greatest assets.

    You see, that's where the problem is. I like the BBC. I don't begrudge paying the licence fee for one moment - it's great value.

    But that doesn't mean that I can't criticise it when I think it's going wrong. Loving it unconditionally means that everyone loses.
    It needs to be put to work for UK PLC, not cut, regulated and restrained. It's one of the UK's digital success stories and few brands with global reach.
    If it is so good, it doesn't need the telly tax then, it will be able to stand on its own two feet.
    Right missing point as usual for dumb ideological reasons.
    In all seriousness, my issue with the telly tax is it totally unenforceable in the 21st century. Even the "make you create an account for iplayer" baby steps does nothing to enforce it.

    They should be transitioning to a funding platform which is sustainable and enforceable.
    The BBC works. Tories used to believe if it ain't broke don't fix it.
    The funding mechanism is broken. I am not a Tory.
    Public seem quite happy.
    It is you who is missing the point. It isn't about who is happy, it is about securing long term sustainable funding.
    How long is long term today? BBC model good til 2027 at least. Probably beyond that.

    Probably has more long-term sustainable funding model than anyone else.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    If would be great if the right learned to love the BBC as one of UK PLCs greatest assets.

    You see, that's where the problem is. I like the BBC. I don't begrudge paying the licence fee for one moment - it's great value.

    But that doesn't mean that I can't criticise it when I think it's going wrong. Loving it unconditionally means that everyone loses.
    It needs to be put to work for UK PLC, not cut, regulated and restrained. It's one of the UK's digital success stories and few brands with global reach.
    It's not a digital success story - far from it. Like the rise of the Dreadnoughts, digital is levelling the playing field and reducing the BBC's ability to win. And most people seem to argue only that it should be cut, regulated and restrained as much as its competition - and preferably funded as well. As the tragic case of Lord McAlpine shows, the BBC cannot be automaically trusted.

    Agree about the BBC's brand.
    And their behaviour to Cliff Richards was wholly unacceptable
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,509

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    If would be great if the right learned to love the BBC as one of UK PLCs greatest assets.

    You see, that's where the problem is. I like the BBC. I don't begrudge paying the licence fee for one moment - it's great value.

    But that doesn't mean that I can't criticise it when I think it's going wrong. Loving it unconditionally means that everyone loses.
    It needs to be put to work for UK PLC, not cut, regulated and restrained. It's one of the UK's digital success stories and few brands with global reach.
    It's not a digital success story - far from it. Like the rise of the Dreadnoughts, digital is levelling the playing field and reducing the BBC's ability to win. And most people seem to argue only that it should be cut, regulated and restrained as much as its competition - and preferably funded as well. As the tragic case of Lord McAlpine shows, the BBC cannot be automaically trusted.

    Agree about the BBC's brand.
    It has the only digital vod service of any note outside silicon Valley and news website continues to set standard.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 25,664
    edited November 2017
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    If would be great if the right learned to love the BBC as one of UK PLCs greatest assets.

    You see, that's where the problem is. I like the BBC. I don't begrudge paying the licence fee for one moment - it's great value.

    But that doesn't mean that I can't criticise it when I think it's going wrong. Loving it unconditionally means that everyone loses.
    It needs to be put to work for UK PLC, not cut, regulated and restrained. It's one of the UK's digital success stories and few brands with global reach.
    If it is so good, it doesn't need the telly tax then, it will be able to stand on its own two feet.
    Right missing point as usual for dumb ideological reasons.
    In all seriousness, my issue with the telly tax is it totally unenforceable in the 21st century. Even the "make you create an account for iplayer" baby steps does nothing to enforce it.

    They should be transitioning to a funding platform which is sustainable and enforceable.
    The BBC works. Tories used to believe if it ain't broke don't fix it.
    The funding mechanism is broken. I am not a Tory.
    Public seem quite happy.
    It is you who is missing the point. It isn't about who is happy, it is about securing long term sustainable funding.
    How long is long term today? BBC model good til 2027 at least. Probably beyond that.

    Probably has more long-term sustainable funding model than anyone else.
    The world is moving very fast....10 years is a huge amount of time.

    Amazon, Google, Apple, they are all coming and coming hard, putting billions into content creation, and that is on top of Netflix, Sky, Itv etc etc etc.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 7,510
    dr_spyn said:

    BBC trust is high, but the dominance over local & national radio, internet & TV news is extraordinarily, I'm never comfortable with that.

    My single biggest complaint about the BBC is BBC London News. They spend most of their time not talking about news (Christmas lights in Regents Street FFS) and they never leave Greater London. Even when that numpty leading Surrey CC was hitting the headlines, BBC London News couldn't give a toss.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 4,234
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    If would be great if the right learned to love the BBC as one of UK PLCs greatest assets.

    You see, that's where the problem is. I like the BBC. I don't begrudge paying the licence fee for one moment - it's great value.

    But that doesn't mean that I can't criticise it when I think it's going wrong. Loving it unconditionally means that everyone loses.
    It needs to be put to work for UK PLC, not cut, regulated and restrained. It's one of the UK's digital success stories and few brands with global reach.
    So let it fund itself, then. Global reach means selling programmes abroad for loadsamoney, or broadcasting them with ads, or selling cable access abroad. Few things piss me off more than overcharging the poor to benefit the rich, and if the proles want to watch sky sports on their 200' plasma tvs all year and never see a minute of beeb output where on earth is the justice in fining them £145 before they are allowed to do so?

    btw UK is not a PLC and calling it one is a bit silly, and does no favours to your argument, given that PLCs do not thrive by having a state monopoly enforceable by the criminal courts, they thrive by selling stuff that people voluntarily pay for.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 9,027

    Fucking hell, Leave.EU aren't even pretending to hide their anti-semitism now.

    What has anti-Semitism got to do with that advert?
    Jew-as-puppet-master is the oldest caricature in the book
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,509
    dr_spyn said:

    BBC trust is high, but the dominance over local & national radio, internet & TV news is extraordinarily, I'm never comfortable with that.

    Google, Facebook, Twitter are bigger worries if you're into media dominance . The BBC is the only one with any skin at all in that game.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 25,664
    edited November 2017
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    If would be great if the right learned to love the BBC as one of UK PLCs greatest assets.

    You see, that's where the problem is. I like the BBC. I don't begrudge paying the licence fee for one moment - it's great value.

    But that doesn't mean that I can't criticise it when I think it's going wrong. Loving it unconditionally means that everyone loses.
    It needs to be put to work for UK PLC, not cut, regulated and restrained. It's one of the UK's digital success stories and few brands with global reach.
    It's not a digital success story - far from it. Like the rise of the Dreadnoughts, digital is levelling the playing field and reducing the BBC's ability to win. And most people seem to argue only that it should be cut, regulated and restrained as much as its competition - and preferably funded as well. As the tragic case of Lord McAlpine shows, the BBC cannot be automaically trusted.

    Agree about the BBC's brand.
    It has the only digital vod service of any note outside silicon Valley and news website continues to set standard.
    Is there another free vod service outside Silicon Valley? Despite the nonsense of supposedly having to have a tv license and step of creating an unvalidated account, it is still trivial to watch for absolutely free (ask most students).
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 61,059
    edited November 2017

    Fucking hell, Leave.EU aren't even pretending to hide their anti-semitism now.

    What has anti-Semitism got to do with that advert?
    1) George Soros is Jewish.

    2) Jews as the puppet masters controlling the world/top politicians is a well known/used anti-Semitic trope in posters/images.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,509

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    If would be great if the right learned to love the BBC as one of UK PLCs greatest assets.

    You see, that's where the problem is. I like the BBC. I don't begrudge paying the licence fee for one moment - it's great value.

    But that doesn't mean that I can't criticise it when I think it's going wrong. Loving it unconditionally means that everyone loses.
    It needs to be put to work for UK PLC, not cut, regulated and restrained. It's one of the UK's digital success stories and few brands with global reach.
    If it is so good, it doesn't need the telly tax then, it will be able to stand on its own two feet.
    Right missing point as usual for dumb ideological reasons.
    In all seriousness, my issue with the telly tax is it totally unenforceable in the 21st century. Even the "make you create an account for iplayer" baby steps does nothing to enforce it.

    They should be transitioning to a funding platform which is sustainable and enforceable.
    The BBC works. Tories used to believe if it ain't broke don't fix it.
    The funding mechanism is broken. I am not a Tory.
    Public seem quite happy.
    It is you who is missing the point. It isn't about who is happy, it is about securing long term sustainable funding.
    How long is long term today? BBC model good til 2027 at least. Probably beyond that.

    Probably has more long-term sustainable funding model than anyone else.
    The world is moving very fast....10 years is a huge amount of time.

    Amazon, Google, Apple, they are all coming and coming hard, putting billions into content creation, and that is on top of Netflix, Sky, Itv etc etc etc.
    Any company would consider ten years funding extremely long term, my firm certainly would.
  • tlg86 said:

    dr_spyn said:

    BBC trust is high, but the dominance over local & national radio, internet & TV news is extraordinarily, I'm never comfortable with that.

    My single biggest complaint about the BBC is BBC London News. They spend most of their time not talking about news (Christmas lights in Regents Street FFS) and they never leave Greater London. Even when that numpty leading Surrey CC was hitting the headlines, BBC London News couldn't give a toss.
    Dateline London is far too left biased and is irrelevant to ordinary people's daily lives
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 18,176
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    If would be great if the right learned to love the BBC as one of UK PLCs greatest assets.

    You see, that's where the problem is. I like the BBC. I don't begrudge paying the licence fee for one moment - it's great value.

    But that doesn't mean that I can't criticise it when I think it's going wrong. Loving it unconditionally means that everyone loses.
    It needs to be put to work for UK PLC, not cut, regulated and restrained. It's one of the UK's digital success stories and few brands with global reach.
    It's not a digital success story - far from it. Like the rise of the Dreadnoughts, digital is levelling the playing field and reducing the BBC's ability to win. And most people seem to argue only that it should be cut, regulated and restrained as much as its competition - and preferably funded as well. As the tragic case of Lord McAlpine shows, the BBC cannot be automaically trusted.

    Agree about the BBC's brand.
    It has the only digital vod service of any note outside silicon Valley and news website continues to set standard.
    It's ''VOD' service is inherently limited. Can I watch The Wire on it? How about the Crown?
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 4,234
    edited November 2017
    del
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 25,664
    edited November 2017
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    If would be great if the right learned to love the BBC as one of UK PLCs greatest assets.

    You see, that's where the problem is. I like the BBC. I don't begrudge paying the licence fee for one moment - it's great value.

    But that doesn't mean that I can't criticise it when I think it's going wrong. Loving it unconditionally means that everyone loses.
    It needs to be put to work for UK PLC, not cut, regulated and restrained. It's one of the UK's digital success stories and few brands with global reach.
    If it is so good, it doesn't need the telly tax then, it will be able to stand on its own two feet.
    Right missing point as usual for dumb ideological reasons.
    In all seriousness, my issue with the telly tax is it totally unenforceable in the 21st century. Even the "make you create an account for iplayer" baby steps does nothing to enforce it.

    They should be transitioning to a funding platform which is sustainable and enforceable.
    The BBC works. Tories used to believe if it ain't broke don't fix it.
    The funding mechanism is broken. I am not a Tory.
    Public seem quite happy.
    It is you who is missing the point. It isn't about who is happy, it is about securing long term sustainable funding.
    How long is long term today? BBC model good til 2027 at least. Probably beyond that.

    Probably has more long-term sustainable funding model than anyone else.
    The world is moving very fast....10 years is a huge amount of time.

    Amazon, Google, Apple, they are all coming and coming hard, putting billions into content creation, and that is on top of Netflix, Sky, Itv etc etc etc.
    Any company would consider ten years funding extremely long term, my firm certainly would.
    But you are presuming that funding i.e. everybody continues to pay the licence fee, will stay the same for the next 10 years...that is the point I am making. That is a very big assumption.

    Most young people think watching traditional tv is rather a weird concept. They watch YouTube, Netflix, etc. And yes iPlayer, but the BBC don't enforce payment for iPlayer, it is trivial to access from anywhere in the world for free, which seems a very bad situation to me.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 18,176
    Jonathan said:

    dr_spyn said:

    BBC trust is high, but the dominance over local & national radio, internet & TV news is extraordinarily, I'm never comfortable with that.

    Google, Facebook, Twitter are bigger worries if you're into media dominance . The BBC is the only one with any skin at all in that game.
    The BBC are implicitly barred from competing with those services. The fact you compare them shows they're trying to extend their brief more than their charter says.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,112
    I hardly read any newspapers any more. And, surprisingly given that I am not working full-time, I seem to have little time to watch TV.
  • Alistair said:

    Fucking hell, Leave.EU aren't even pretending to hide their anti-semitism now.

    What has anti-Semitism got to do with that advert?
    Jew-as-puppet-master is the oldest caricature in the book
    Are either of the people mentioned Jewish? I am well informed politically and was not aware of that. It seems the only person keeping track of Jews around and trying to make a political point out of their heritage here is that well known bigot TSE. Par for the course from him I'm afraid.

    I would bet 99.9% of people seeing that poster would not have the first idea about it being anti-Semitic and nor would those who came up with it. Only sad losers like TSE are trying to make it an issue.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,509
    edited November 2017

    Jonathan said:

    dr_spyn said:

    BBC trust is high, but the dominance over local & national radio, internet & TV news is extraordinarily, I'm never comfortable with that.

    Google, Facebook, Twitter are bigger worries if you're into media dominance . The BBC is the only one with any skin at all in that game.
    The BBC are implicitly barred from competing with those services. The fact you compare them shows they're trying to extend their brief more than their charter says.
    It should not be barred. It should be encouraged and funded to do so outside UK.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 7,510

    tlg86 said:

    dr_spyn said:

    BBC trust is high, but the dominance over local & national radio, internet & TV news is extraordinarily, I'm never comfortable with that.

    My single biggest complaint about the BBC is BBC London News. They spend most of their time not talking about news (Christmas lights in Regents Street FFS) and they never leave Greater London. Even when that numpty leading Surrey CC was hitting the headlines, BBC London News couldn't give a toss.
    Dateline London is far too left biased and is irrelevant to ordinary people's daily lives
    Probably true, and I don't watch it (very often), but that doesn't bother me too much. I'd far rather the balance came from having some left leaning presenters/shows and some right leaning.
  • Alistair said:

    Fucking hell, Leave.EU aren't even pretending to hide their anti-semitism now.

    What has anti-Semitism got to do with that advert?
    Jew-as-puppet-master is the oldest caricature in the book
    Out of interest, was this poster run by Cameron and Osborne in the 2015 election anti-Semitic?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/11547853/Election-2015-Nicola-Sturgeon-is-Ed-Milibands-puppet-master-in-new-Conservative-campaign-poster.html
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 16,241

    Fucking hell, Leave.EU aren't even pretending to hide their anti-semitism now.

    What has anti-Semitism got to do with that advert?
    1) George Soros is Jewish.

    2) Jews as the puppet masters controlling the world/top politicians is a well known/used anti-Semitic trope in posters/images.
    that wouldnt have occurred to me until your pointed it out

    it looks more like rich gits own politicians
  • Fucking hell, Leave.EU aren't even pretending to hide their anti-semitism now.

    What has anti-Semitism got to do with that advert?
    1) George Soros is Jewish.

    2) Jews as the puppet masters controlling the world/top politicians is a well known/used anti-Semitic trope in posters/images.
    Again. I assume you extend that to the Tory campaign run by Cameron and Osborne in 2015?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/11547853/Election-2015-Nicola-Sturgeon-is-Ed-Milibands-puppet-master-in-new-Conservative-campaign-poster.html

    Fecking idiot.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 7,510

    Alistair said:

    Fucking hell, Leave.EU aren't even pretending to hide their anti-semitism now.

    What has anti-Semitism got to do with that advert?
    Jew-as-puppet-master is the oldest caricature in the book
    Out of interest, was this poster run by Cameron and Osborne in the 2015 election anti-Semitic?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/11547853/Election-2015-Nicola-Sturgeon-is-Ed-Milibands-puppet-master-in-new-Conservative-campaign-poster.html
    Thanks Richard, I've just spent 10 minutes looking for that. I thought I was looking for Salmond, but that was the pocket, wasn't it?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,509
    My point is the as the chart above states, the BBC is a success. We should actively look for ways to build on that success and exploit it. Like Maggie did with BBC Micro. Look where that led.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 61,059
    edited November 2017

    Alistair said:

    Fucking hell, Leave.EU aren't even pretending to hide their anti-semitism now.

    What has anti-Semitism got to do with that advert?
    Jew-as-puppet-master is the oldest caricature in the book
    Are either of the people mentioned Jewish? I am well informed politically and was not aware of that. It seems the only person keeping track of Jews around and trying to make a political point out of their heritage here is that well known bigot TSE. Par for the course from him I'm afraid.

    I would bet 99.9% of people seeing that poster would not have the first idea about it being anti-Semitic and nor would those who came up with it. Only sad losers like TSE are trying to make it an issue.
    A Jewish journalist flagged it up, and here's the Nazis using it.

    http://fourwinds10.com/resources/uploads/images/communism is jewish(1).jpg
  • Fucking hell, Leave.EU aren't even pretending to hide their anti-semitism now.

    What has anti-Semitism got to do with that advert?
    1) George Soros is Jewish.

    2) Jews as the puppet masters controlling the world/top politicians is a well known/used anti-Semitic trope in posters/images.
    that wouldnt have occurred to me until your pointed it out

    it looks more like rich gits own politicians
    Exactly. Seems there is only one person around here who thinks people's religious and ethnic backgrounds should be a matter for political debate. Stand up Mr Screaming Eagles.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 1,813
    The categorisation of the Independent and i seems problematic, unless I am having problems with shades of blue.

    The i is the equivalent of a broadsheet now? I must be a banana.

    I have the Independent now down as an online Daily Express of the left.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 18,176
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    dr_spyn said:

    BBC trust is high, but the dominance over local & national radio, internet & TV news is extraordinarily, I'm never comfortable with that.

    Google, Facebook, Twitter are bigger worries if you're into media dominance . The BBC is the only one with any skin at all in that game.
    The BBC are implicitly barred from competing with those services. The fact you compare them shows they're trying to extend their brief more than their charter says.
    It should not be barred. It should be encouraged and funded to do so outside UK.
    If it is not barred from those markets, then those markets should be made a level playing field. That involves removing its funding advantage.

    BBC Worldwide does rather well outside the UK.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,112
    Anyway have been scanning the previous thread and a few comments are worth picking up on.

    @Topping

    "I think the point was that we had a workable relationship with our neighbour and largest trading partner and as a part of that relationship there was freedom of movement. This was part of a broader set of agreements which proved to be mutually beneficial. Over the years both parties have benefited.

    What I think happened with the referendum is that this one element of the overall relationship was focused on by people who have never liked immigration and probably never will.

    In years gone by EU immigration has ebbed and flowed and before that there was other kinds of immigration (Huguenots, Jews, Asian, Afro-Caribbean) and my guess is those were not liked either. The difference at the EU Ref was that those people who didn't like immigration could finally do something about it. So they did."

    True but misses the point I think. The levels of immigration in the two decades leading up to the referendum were very high, much much higher, both in absolute and relative terms than in any previous period of our history. Between 1964 - 1974, net migration was negative; until about 1996 it was running at ca. 40-50,000 p.a. From 1997 it tripled in one year - going to 140,000 in 1998 and was then at ca. 200,000 p.a. A total of 3.6 million people came to Britain during the 1997-2010 period. That is an enormous number for a small country.

    To contrast, in 1907 the US received 1.3 million people. At the rate of immigration into the UK, every 4 years the UK was receiving the same number of people as the US did in one of the years when its annual immigration was at its highest. The UK is not a quarter of the size of the US.

    I am not one of those who dislikes immigration. Indeed, I have gone on record here (and am one of the few to say so) who thinks that opening up our country to the Poles was a good, generous and moral thing to have done. Germany's attitude to immigration from Poland was, IMO, a disgrace. But when the numbers reach the sort of levels they did then concern about immigration and about how best to control it was not the concern of just those who disliked foreigners.
  • jayfdeejayfdee Posts: 490
    Surprised the Express does so relatively well, you can only live so long on Diana, Maddie, Wonder drug cures, mortgage woes, Weather too hot/cold etc, and not too much flesh.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 16,241

    Alistair said:

    Fucking hell, Leave.EU aren't even pretending to hide their anti-semitism now.

    What has anti-Semitism got to do with that advert?
    Jew-as-puppet-master is the oldest caricature in the book
    Are either of the people mentioned Jewish? I am well informed politically and was not aware of that. It seems the only person keeping track of Jews around and trying to make a political point out of their heritage here is that well known bigot TSE. Par for the course from him I'm afraid.

    I would bet 99.9% of people seeing that poster would not have the first idea about it being anti-Semitic and nor would those who came up with it. Only sad losers like TSE are trying to make it an issue.
    A Jewish journalist flagged it up, and here's the Nazis using it.

    http://fourwinds10.com/resources/uploads/images/communism is jewish(1).jpg
    is this a real jewish journalist or a twitter account called Emmanuel Goldberg sat in Sverdlovsk ?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 9,027

    Alistair said:

    Fucking hell, Leave.EU aren't even pretending to hide their anti-semitism now.

    What has anti-Semitism got to do with that advert?
    Jew-as-puppet-master is the oldest caricature in the book
    Out of interest, was this poster run by Cameron and Osborne in the 2015 election anti-Semitic?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/11547853/Election-2015-Nicola-Sturgeon-is-Ed-Milibands-puppet-master-in-new-Conservative-campaign-poster.html
    No?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 9,027
    Soros is like target number 1 for neo-Nazis.
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 943
    Cyclefree said:

    Anyway have been scanning the previous thread and a few comments are worth picking up on.

    @Topping

    "I think the point was that we had a workable relationship with our neighbour and largest trading partner and as a part of that relationship there was freedom of movement. This was part of a broader set of agreements which proved to be mutually beneficial. Over the years both parties have benefited.

    What I think happened with the referendum is that this one element of the overall relationship was focused on by people who have never liked immigration and probably never will.

    In years gone by EU immigration has ebbed and flowed and before that there was other kinds of immigration (Huguenots, Jews, Asian, Afro-Caribbean) and my guess is those were not liked either. The difference at the EU Ref was that those people who didn't like immigration could finally do something about it. So they did."

    True but misses the point I think. The levels of immigration in the two decades leading up to the referendum were very high, much much higher, both in absolute and relative terms than in any previous period of our history. Between 1964 - 1974, net migration was negative; until about 1996 it was running at ca. 40-50,000 p.a. From 1997 it tripled in one year - going to 140,000 in 1998 and was then at ca. 200,000 p.a. A total of 3.6 million people came to Britain during the 1997-2010 period. That is an enormous number for a small country.

    To contrast, in 1907 the US received 1.3 million people. At the rate of immigration into the UK, every 4 years the UK was receiving the same number of people as the US did in one of the years when its annual immigration was at its highest. The UK is not a quarter of the size of the US.

    I am not one of those who dislikes immigration. Indeed, I have gone on record here (and am one of the few to say so) who thinks that opening up our country to the Poles was a good, generous and moral thing to have done. Germany's attitude to immigration from Poland was, IMO, a disgrace. But when the numbers reach the sort of levels they did then concern about immigration and about how best to control it was not the concern of just those who disliked foreigners.

    We are not a small country.
This discussion has been closed.