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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Symbols for our time

SystemSystem Posts: 3,967
edited November 28 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Symbols for our time

In an age of hashtags, social media campaigns, lit candles and all the rest of it, it is easy to sneer. Such narcissism. Gesture politics is castigated as the last word in pointless posturing, mainly designed to make the politician – rather than the persons at whom it is aimed – feel good. “Action this day. Not words or images” – as Churchill did not say.

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Comments

  • RobDRobD Posts: 30,411
    First :smiley:
  • RobDRobD Posts: 30,411
    and thanks, CycleFree!
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 113
    That's the best thread header in a long while.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 1,642
    Great list as ever @cyclefree.
    However, re Mandela. I would argue it was the wearing of the Springbok shirt which carried the greatest psychic relevance.
    Would not have had the impact in a suit.
    This quibble apart, great work!
  • If you were writing this piece tomorrow instead of yesterday your list would have to include David Davis lying and misleading Parliament and then trying to cover his arse.

    After all that talk about Parliamentary sovereignty.

    It speaks volumes about the contempt for Parliament and incompetence some Leavers have.

  • stevefstevef Posts: 449
    Labour MPs should have had the courage of their convictions in 2016, and after Corbyn was annointed Labour leader by activists in September, they should have refused to recognise him as leader, elected their own leader and formed a separate opposition in the Commons.

    No, the result of the general election would not have been so close. But in the long term they would have saved the Labour Party from the destruction by the hard left which is bound to come. It may not look like that now, but in ten years........................
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 16,963
    A great piece, which wannabe statesmen and stateswomen would be well advised to ponder. My only quibble would be that I don't think items 4 and 10 really count: they involved no element of sacrifice or contrition or confronting difficult truths.

    Add to the list: Nixon to China.

    Also there are probably some interesting ones which looked at the time like significant symbolic acts, but which didn't in the end achieve anything
  • Here’s some infrastructure spending we can all support.

    ‘The cost of building a real world AT-AT’

    http://geekxgirls.com/article.php?ID=7571
  • Great List.

    Not a positive symbol of our time, but a symbol nonetheless


    I am sure if he ever becomes Prime Minister, Boris on the zip wire will symbolise his Premiership. In fact it almost symbolises Brexit as it stands today. Stranded in mid air, going nowhere and looking ridiculous to onlookers.
  • The shit show has decided to buy some fans.

  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 16,963
    Ah, and of course: 'Ich bin ein Berliner'
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 1,642

    Here’s some infrastructure spending we can all support.

    ‘The cost of building a real world AT-AT’

    http://geekxgirls.com/article.php?ID=7571

    A solution to the Irish border?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 25,253
    edited November 28

    Here’s some infrastructure spending we can all support.

    ‘The cost of building a real world AT-AT’

    http://geekxgirls.com/article.php?ID=7571

    Don't give Chairman Corbyn ideas...a great way to keep the union labour busy...of course he would remove all the weaponry.
  • dixiedean said:

    Here’s some infrastructure spending we can all support.

    ‘The cost of building a real world AT-AT’

    http://geekxgirls.com/article.php?ID=7571

    A solution to the Irish border?
    Excellent suggestion.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 17,768
    Symbols can be negative as well as positive. Sadly, the telling negative symbols far outweigh the positive ones.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,339
    dixiedean said:

    A solution to the Irish border?

    I saw a proposal earlier to build a new Royal Yacht, but make it an airship to patrol the border
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 4,036
    Hmm let's see
    Tiananmen Square and student versus tank
    The black power Olympic salute
    The helicopter evacuation of the US Embassy as they lost the Vietnam War
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,318

    Hmm let's see
    Tiananmen Square and student versus tank
    The black power Olympic salute
    The helicopter evacuation of the US Embassy as they lost the Vietnam War

    Dubya on board the aircraft carrier with a Mission Accomplished banner behind him
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 8,831

    A great piece, which wannabe statesmen and stateswomen would be well advised to ponder. My only quibble would be that I don't think items 4 and 10 really count: they involved no element of sacrifice or contrition or confronting difficult truths.

    Add to the list: Nixon to China.

    Also there are probably some interesting ones which looked at the time like significant symbolic acts, but which didn't in the end achieve anything

    I was really focusing on ceremonial /quasi-religious moments rather than overtly political decisions. And sacrifice or contrition were not essential. But I could have made the list much longer!

    Two which I would also add are:-

    1. The last Remembrance service at which there were present soldiers who had actually fought in WW1. The sight of Harry Patch trying, vainly, to stand up and present his own wreath while the crowd applauded him was very moving.

    2. Pope John Paul II going back to Poland and telling the crowds: "Do not be afraid." A simple but incredibly powerful statement. The way to live your life. (And had real political consequences.)

    Of course one could do an equally long list of symbolic moments of hate and horror but that would have turned into a list of IS and similar atrocities. And I wrote this in the wake of yesterday's wedding announcement so I was in a happy frame of mind.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 4,036
    Reagan's 'tear down this wall'
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 9,622
    Very good header, whatever quibbles we might have (not sure I agree about the Danish cartoons). Thanks, Cyclefree.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 4,036
    Nixon's v sign as he left the white house for the last time as vainglorious defiance in the face of personal defeat
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 4,036
    Reg Keys at Blair's 2005 count
    The Portillo moment
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 8,831

    Hmm let's see
    Tiananmen Square and student versus tank
    The black power Olympic salute
    The helicopter evacuation of the US Embassy as they lost the Vietnam War

    The Last Days of Vietnam is a PBS documentary available on Netflix. It covers just the last few days and is absolutely riveting.

    Well worth seeing if you enjoyed The Vietnam War documentary.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 8,831

    Symbols can be negative as well as positive. Sadly, the telling negative symbols far outweigh the positive ones.

    I had cast off my normal cynicism and was trying to be a little ray of sunshine. :)
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 4,036
    edited November 28
    On a personal sporting level, Freddie comforting Brett Lee at the end if the greatest ever test match
    At the opposite end and as counterpoint to a summer of glory Botham walking back in to silence after a pair at Lord's in 1981
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 17,768
    Cyclefree said:

    Symbols can be negative as well as positive. Sadly, the telling negative symbols far outweigh the positive ones.

    I had cast off my normal cynicism and was trying to be a little ray of sunshine. :)
    Sorry. By way of excuse, I'm in Birmingham this afternoon.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 4,036
    The lowering of the Union Flag in Hong Kong in 1997 probably counts as the single moment that signalled the end of the age of European Empires
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 4,036
    For the British Forces Hanrahans I counted them out and I counted them all back in again
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 17,988

    Cyclefree said:

    Symbols can be negative as well as positive. Sadly, the telling negative symbols far outweigh the positive ones.

    I had cast off my normal cynicism and was trying to be a little ray of sunshine. :)
    Sorry. By way of excuse, I'm in Birmingham this afternoon.
    Could be worse. Could be Bedford, ;)
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 4,036
    Nixon sweating on TV as Kennedy trumped the debate
    JFK jnr saluting the coffin
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 4,036
    And my final offering a warning never heeded. Eisenhower's beware the military industrial complex exit address
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 5,190
    Good piece, CF. The symbolism of the Queen's visit to Dublin was that it was completely unexceptional, mundane even. Given the enmity and baggage from before the ordinariness was massive progress.

    Aung San Su Kyi obviously doesn't care that she's a fallen Idol for the likes of me. My naivety, I guess
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 713
    FPT:
    rpjs said:


    Liechtenstein does indeed have concessions on FoM because of its size (ICBW but I think Luxembourg has, or had, some concessions to do with limiting non-Luxembourgeouis right to vote in local elections on size and proportion of non-locals grounds too).

    Yes - Articles 112-113 of the EEA Agreement allow for this:
    [blockquote]Article 112
    1. If serious economic, societal or environmental difficulties of a sectorial or regional nature liable to persist are arising, a Contracting Party may unilaterally take appropriate measures under the conditions and procedures laid down in Article 113.
    2. Such safeguard measures shall be restricted with regard to their scope and duration to what is strictly necessary in order to remedy the situation. Priority shall be given to such measures as will least disturb the functioning of this Agreement.
    3. The safeguard measures shall apply with regard to all Contracting Parties.

    Article 113
    1. A Contracting Party which is considering taking safeguard measures under Article 112 shall, without delay, notify the other Contracting Parties through the EEA Joint Committee and shall provide all relevant information.
    2. The Contracting Parties shall immediately enter into consultations in the EEA Joint Committee with a view to finding a commonly acceptable solution.
    3. The Contracting Party concerned may not take safeguard measures until one month has elapsed after the date of notification under paragraph 1, unless the consultation procedure under paragraph 2 has been concluded before the expiration of the stated time limit. When exceptional circumstances requiring immediate action exclude prior examination, the Contracting Party concerned may apply forthwith the protective measures strictly necessary to remedy the situation.
    For the Community, the safeguard measures shall be taken by the EC Commission.
    4. The Contracting Party concerned shall, without delay, notify the measures taken to the EEA Joint Committee and shall provide all relevant information.
    5. The safeguard measures taken shall be the subject of consultations in the EEA Joint Committee every three months from the date of their adoption with a view to their abolition before the date of expiry envisaged, or to the limitation of their scope of application.
    Each Contracting Party may at any time request the EEA Joint Committee to review such measures[/blockquote]
    Liechtenstein used this measure to put an emergency brake on FoM, and it was then endorsed and extended by the EEA Joint Committee.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 17,988
    Can I add the Apollo - Soyuz Test Project? The Vietnam war had just ended, the Cold War was still distinctly chilly, and the Russians were still smarting that the US had comprehensively beaten them to the Moon.

    Yet despite this, both sides spent a great deal of treasure in a symbolic act to highlight their detente.

    In a similar vein, the entire ISS project. Despite Russian-US relations being in the gutter, the ISS collaboration continues regardless. A brilliant indication that sensible people can work together, even when the politicians are philosophically miles apart.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 39,452
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Good article, Miss Cyclefree, and I agree entirely on the Danish cartoons. It was a watershed of cowardice, perhaps more from politicians than the media.

    A decade later there was the Charlie Hebdo massacre after which the Pope, vaunted on the news as a moral man, made a comment about punching a man if he insulted his mother. "Je suis Charlie" - a slogan with no substance, alas.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 39,452
    F1: Aston Martin may try and join the sport in 2021:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/42148636
  • BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 1,632
    I enjoyed reading that. Thanks.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,339
    @elliotttimes: FCO redeploying 50 posts from out of non EU countries to EU countries to cope with Brexit. Not very global, Britain.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 713

    On a personal sporting level, Freddie comforting Brett Lee at the end if the greatest ever test match

    I'd heard (unconfirmed) that what Freddie actually said to Lee at the time was, "That's one-all, you Aussie wanker," which somewhat spoils the symbolism.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 16,963
    edited November 28
    Incidentally, in all the Brexit fun I presume I must have simply missed the outpourings of congratulations from the Guardianistas and Labour (especially Emma Dent-Coad) to Kensington & Chelsea Council, for being one of the two councils in England with the best record on getting disadvantaged children into university?

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/nov/28/disadvantaged-children-face-worse-outcomes-in-rich-areas-report-finds

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 8,896
    Scott_P said:

    dixiedean said:

    A solution to the Irish border?

    I saw a proposal earlier to build a new Royal Yacht, but make it an airship to patrol the border
    Aircraft not included?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 8,831
    edited November 28

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Good article, Miss Cyclefree, and I agree entirely on the Danish cartoons. It was a watershed of cowardice, perhaps more from politicians than the media.

    A decade later there was the Charlie Hebdo massacre after which the Pope, vaunted on the news as a moral man, made a comment about punching a man if he insulted his mother. "Je suis Charlie" - a slogan with no substance, alas.

    And that was precisely why I chose it. I felt that all those "Je suis Charlie" slogans were too little, too late. If we had stood up to - rather than appeased - those who sought to tell us what we can say, draw and think, we might not have needed all those slogans a decade (or more) later.

    If there was one image which summed this up for me it was the image of people burning Rushdie's book on the streets of Bradford decades earlier.

    As the poet Heine put it in 1823: ""Where books are burned, in the end, people will also be burned."

    We had book burning and years later we had people being killed on the streets of our cities for what they said and drew and thought. And the line from then to now was made up of cowardice and evasion and double standards and appeasement. Utterly shameful.

    That statement by the Pope was idiotic. Insulting a person is bad manners. But a person is not the same as a thought system or ideology or idea or religion or political belief. If those cannot be insulted, then there is no freedom of thought. For a Pope who likes to be thought of as different he was depressingly traditional: no different to those Popes who sought to chastise Galileo for not toeing the Church line.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 39,452
    Miss Cyclefree, alas that you're not standing for elected office.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,339
    @SkyNewsBreak: Kensington Palace has announced Prince Harry and bride-to-be Meghan Markle are to marry at St George's Chapel at Windsor Castle in May
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 8,896
    edited November 28
    On topic, symbolism is something the British do very well, when we put our minds to it. Our monarchy being almost entirely symbolic, after all.

    Look back at our acclaimed 2012 Olympic opening ceremony and that could generate a whole list by itself. HMQ 'jumping' from a helicopter. The Olympic Flame being lit, for the first time not by a veteran competitor, but by a group of young upcoming athletes. Etc.

    Much as I abhor Cyclefree's mini-me SeanT agenda when it comes to Islam, on the cartoons and free speech I can see that she does have a point.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,339
    @MrHarryCole: Meghan Markle to be baptised, confirmed and become a British citizen before a May wedding at Windsor, Palace say.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 16,963
    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: Meghan Markle to be baptised, confirmed and become a British citizen before a May wedding at Windsor, Palace say.

    Will she be taught the Queen's English as well?
  • Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 1,881
    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: Meghan Markle to be baptised, confirmed and become a British citizen before a May wedding at Windsor, Palace say.

    May the fourth (be with you), a Jedi wedding
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 3,937
    The trouble is, all this stuff debases so easily. 4 and 10 = lighting something up with the colours of the victim nation's flag (easy because it is always red, white, blue) and framing your facebook page are now irritating cliches. 1 - all gestures of remembrance are tainted by the over the top silliness surrounding poppy day. 2 - Mandela was a PR construct from start to finish and needs to be remembered for his refusal to condemn, and thereby stop, his wife's necklacing campaign, not for going to rugby matches.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 30,411
    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: Meghan Markle to be baptised, confirmed and become a British citizen before a May wedding at Windsor, Palace say.

    I wonder if there’s a special immigration procedure for situations like these, or do they just nod things through?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,049
    A superb piece, Cyclefree.

    I'd add Reagan: tear down this wall.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 4,979
    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: Meghan Markle to be baptised, confirmed and become a British citizen before a May wedding at Windsor, Palace say.

    No nuns and no priests and no rosary beads, every day is the twelfth of July.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 13,144

    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: Meghan Markle to be baptised, confirmed and become a British citizen before a May wedding at Windsor, Palace say.

    Will she be taught the Queen's English as well?
    One would hope.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 39,452
    Hope you're feeling better, Mr. Max.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 13,144

    Hope you're feeling better, Mr. Max.

    Much, thanks.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Good article, Miss Cyclefree, and I agree entirely on the Danish cartoons. It was a watershed of cowardice, perhaps more from politicians than the media.

    A decade later there was the Charlie Hebdo massacre after which the Pope, vaunted on the news as a moral man, made a comment about punching a man if he insulted his mother. "Je suis Charlie" - a slogan with no substance, alas.

    And that was precisely why I chose it. I felt that all those "Je suis Charlie" slogans were too little, too late. If we had stood up to - rather than appeased - those who sought to tell us what we can say, draw and think, we might not have needed all those slogans a decade (or more) later.

    If there was one image which summed this up for me it was the image of people burning Rushdie's book on the streets of Bradford decades earlier.

    As the poet Heine put it in 1823: ""Where books are burned, in the end, people will also be burned."

    We had book burning and years later we had people being killed on the streets of our cities for what they said and drew and thought. And the line from then to now was made up of cowardice and evasion and double standards and appeasement. Utterly shameful.

    That statement by the Pope was idiotic. Insulting a person is bad manners. But a person is not the same as a thought system or ideology or idea or religion or political belief. If those cannot be insulted, then there is no freedom of thought. For a Pope who likes to be thought of as different he was depressingly traditional: no different to those Popes who sought to chastise Galileo for not toeing the Church line.
    Spot on about the Danish Cartoons CycleFree, you can trace that moral cowardice back to the Fatwa on Salman Rushdie in the late 80s. Literature punishable by death from a foreign theocracy. The reaction of the British establishment at the time was disgraceful and largely pandered to the theocrats. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here but I even seem to recall Keith Vaz leading an anti Rushdie march at the time, astounding stuff.
  • Scott_P said:
    After today's events how anyone can think Minister for Winging It, David Davis, is an untrustworthy incompetent in it way over his head is beyond me.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,318
    edited November 28

    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: Meghan Markle to be baptised, confirmed and become a British citizen before a May wedding at Windsor, Palace say.

    Will she be taught the Queen's English as well?
    I'm more worried about when she will become eligible for benefits.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 41,925
    Off topic: Amazing how much of the nation's wealth i stored in a product that is absolubtely hideous to either buy or sell %^^;
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 5,190
    In my time, the breaking down of the Berlin Wall was the most powerful symbolic act. It was made more powerful by it not involving politicians and leaders. Kennedy's Ich bin ein Berliner speech stressed his support for West Berlin as part of the Cold War he was energetically pursuing. West Berlin was an artificial enclave with a slight air of paranoia - albeit a thousand times better than East Berlin of course. Berlin today is more comfortable with itself than it has ever been.

    Which is maybe my emotional problem with Brexit that goes beyond the practical difficulties. I prefer to tear down walls; not build them.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 17,768
    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: Meghan Markle to be baptised, confirmed and become a British citizen before a May wedding at Windsor, Palace say.

    Entering a religion that's headed by your grandmother-in-law to be is a very American concept.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 4,376
    edited November 28
    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: Meghan Markle to be baptised, confirmed and become a British citizen before a May wedding at Windsor, Palace say.

    If it's a modern Royal Family, why go through the pretence that she's religious?

    She obviously isn't - she's 36 and never been confirmed.

    Are we seriously expected to believe that after meeting Harry she's suddenly become religious?

    Time to end the charade.

    NB. It was exactly the same with Kate - she also got confirmed just before she married William.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 15,422

    Scott_P said:
    After today's events how anyone can think Minister for Winging It, David Davis, is an untrustworthy incompetent in it way over his head is beyond me.
    If David Jason were a few years younger, playing David Davis in 'Brexit: The Movie' would have been the role of his life.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 3,937
    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: Meghan Markle to be baptised, confirmed and become a British citizen before a May wedding at Windsor, Palace say.

    I wonder if there’s a special immigration procedure for situations like these, or do they just nod things through?
    Does she have to pass a test? Practice version at http://www.lifeintheuktestweb.co.uk/british-citizenship-test-4/

    I particularly like q10

    Which two houses form the UK Parliament?

    The House of Lords
    House of Members
    House of Commons
    House of Fraser
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 3,030
    For me the rugby match at Croke Park where British soldiers had shot civilians some 87 years before was a bigger one for Anglo Irish relations. And the fact that the British national anthem was sung and respected was a huge deal.

    The picture of the dog attacking the protestor in the civil rights movement in Alabama, or the image of the schoolchildren going to a desegregated school in Little Rock.

    Jesse Owens in Nazi Germany Olympics winnign 4 gold medals.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 8,831
    MikeL said:

    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: Meghan Markle to be baptised, confirmed and become a British citizen before a May wedding at Windsor, Palace say.

    If it's a modern Royal Family, why go through the pretence that she's religious?

    She obviously isn't - she's 36 and never been confirmed.

    Are we seriously expected to believe that after meeting Harry she's suddenly become religious?

    Time to end the charade.

    NB. It was exactly the same with Kate - she also got confirmed just before she married William.
    Charades and the appearance of things are exactly what royalty is all about.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 2,899

    Scott_P said:
    After today's events how anyone can think Minister for Winging It, David Davis, is an untrustworthy incompetent in it way over his head is beyond me.

    I remain puzzled as to why Theresa decided to revive a bunch of IDS-era has-beens - Fox, DD and herself - to lead Brexit. It's not as if any of them had ever shone. Had they sort of earned the right, as compensation for being Tories when being one was generally a luckless affair?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 16,963
    Ishmael_Z said:


    Does she have to pass a test? Practice version at http://www.lifeintheuktestweb.co.uk/british-citizenship-test-4/

    I particularly like q10

    Which two houses form the UK Parliament?

    The House of Lords
    House of Members
    House of Commons
    House of Fraser

    An excellent, subtle question. If the applicant doesn't answer 'House of Fraser', then clearly he or she doesn't have a properly British attitude to life.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 8,831
    IanB2 said:

    On topic, symbolism is something the British do very well, when we put our minds to it. Our monarchy being almost entirely symbolic, after all.

    Look back at our acclaimed 2012 Olympic opening ceremony and that could generate a whole list by itself. HMQ 'jumping' from a helicopter. The Olympic Flame being lit, for the first time not by a veteran competitor, but by a group of young upcoming athletes. Etc.

    Much as I abhor Cyclefree's mini-me SeanT agenda when it comes to Islam, on the cartoons and free speech I can see that she does have a point.


    I had no views on Islam until I saw that book burning and the reaction to it. Read Christopher Hitchens on the Rushdie fatwa in his autobiography. He sums up pretty well how I felt.

    My concerns with Islam stem from my belief that liberal values - such as freedom of thought and speech - are a good end in themselves and matter and I don't want them curtailed or removed because we refuse to be clear-sighted about what it means to have a largely credal culture at odds in certain significant ways with Western liberal values, as - say - set out in the ECHR - living in our midst.

    Best summarised in this thread header - http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2017/01/29/angels-and-fools-cyclefree-on-trumps-latest-executive-order/.

  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 4,376
    Cyclefree said:

    MikeL said:

    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: Meghan Markle to be baptised, confirmed and become a British citizen before a May wedding at Windsor, Palace say.

    If it's a modern Royal Family, why go through the pretence that she's religious?

    She obviously isn't - she's 36 and never been confirmed.

    Are we seriously expected to believe that after meeting Harry she's suddenly become religious?

    Time to end the charade.

    NB. It was exactly the same with Kate - she also got confirmed just before she married William.
    Charades and the appearance of things are exactly what royalty is all about.
    Indeed.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 5,190

    Scott_P said:
    After today's events how anyone can think Minister for Winging It, David Davis, is an untrustworthy incompetent in it way over his head is beyond me.

    We're losing sight of the real scandal of the papers that are impacting in ways never dreamt of. David Davis and others kept going on about the apparently non-existent impact papers because they wished to show they were on top of their brief, that they had all bases covered and it was all going to be all right. Now we know they absolutely no interest in the outcomes of the detailed negotiations they are entering into on our behalf. Quite simply they are not serious.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,339
    @cpmcgonagle: UK - “We must leave the EU due to stifling Brussels red tape that we are powerless to resist!”

    Also UK - “Why can’t Ireland just ignore the rules and leave their borders open?”
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 5,190
    Scott_P said:

    @cpmcgonagle: UK - “We must leave the EU due to stifling Brussels red tape that we are powerless to resist!”

    Also UK - “Why can’t Ireland just ignore the rules and leave their borders open?”

    Whatever else, Brexit will lead to an explosion of red tape.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 16,963
    FF43 said:

    We're losing sight of the real scandal of the papers that are impacting in ways never dreamt of. David Davis and others kept going on about the apparently non-existent impact papers because they wished to show they were on top of their brief, that they had all bases covered and it was all going to be all right. Now we know they absolutely no interest in the outcomes of the detailed negotiations they are entering into on our behalf. Quite simply they are not serious.

    This is just partisanship, as are many of the comments on the assessment reports.

    The assessments do exist. They just don't exist as 58 separate reports. Since DD never claimed they did exist as 58 separate reports, this is a non-story, although Labour are doing a good job in pretending not to understand this simple point.

    As for 'Now we know they absolutely no interest in the outcomes of the detailed negotiations' - for heaven's sake, we 'know' nothing of the sort.

    Why can't either side be a bit grown up in this debate? It's hard enough to limit the damage of Brexit as it is. All that the Continuity Remainers are doing is making the likelihood of a bad outcome more likely, or revisiting arguments which they lost 18 months ago. It's a great pity that Labour Remainers in particular weren't rather more supportive of Cameron 18 months ago when it might actually have helped, rather than weighing in now when all they are doing is obstructing a deal.

    Having said all that, it's also true that the government have made a real pig's ear of this assessments issue. I suppose it would be asking too much of any opposition not to exploit it.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,339

    Having said all that, it's also true that the government have made a real pig's ear of this assessments issue. I suppose it would be asking too much of any opposition not to exploit it.

    Or JRM
  • Scott_P said:

    @SkyNewsBreak: Kensington Palace has announced Prince Harry and bride-to-be Meghan Markle are to marry at St George's Chapel at Windsor Castle in May

    Why not at the bride's home in Hollywood?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 8,896
    edited November 28
    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    On topic, symbolism is something the British do very well, when we put our minds to it. Our monarchy being almost entirely symbolic, after all.

    Look back at our acclaimed 2012 Olympic opening ceremony and that could generate a whole list by itself. HMQ 'jumping' from a helicopter. The Olympic Flame being lit, for the first time not by a veteran competitor, but by a group of young upcoming athletes. Etc.

    Much as I abhor Cyclefree's mini-me SeanT agenda when it comes to Islam, on the cartoons and free speech I can see that she does have a point.


    I had no views on Islam until I saw that book burning and the reaction to it. Read Christopher Hitchens on the Rushdie fatwa in his autobiography. He sums up pretty well how I felt.

    My concerns with Islam stem from my belief that liberal values - such as freedom of thought and speech - are a good end in themselves and matter and I don't want them curtailed or removed because we refuse to be clear-sighted about what it means to have a largely credal culture at odds in certain significant ways with Western liberal values, as - say - set out in the ECHR - living in our midst.

    Best summarised in this thread header - http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2017/01/29/angels-and-fools-cyclefree-on-trumps-latest-executive-order/.

    Neither do I. But we have to strive to make things better, not worse, starting from where we actually are, not where you might wish that we were.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 15,422

    This is just partisanship, as are many of the comments on the assessment reports.

    Nice of you to start with that disclaimer.
  • Scott_P said:

    @cpmcgonagle: UK - “We must leave the EU due to stifling Brussels red tape that we are powerless to resist!”

    Also UK - “Why can’t Ireland just ignore the rules and leave their borders open?”

    To answer the question "because of stifling EU red tape"?

    Is that the answer you mean?

    Clearly remaining part of the EU is tying the Irish hand here.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 16,963

    This is just partisanship, as are many of the comments on the assessment reports.

    Nice of you to start with that disclaimer.
    Nice one!
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 8,831
    IanB2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    On topic, symbolism is something the British do very well, when we put our minds to it. Our monarchy being almost entirely symbolic, after all.

    Look back at our acclaimed 2012 Olympic opening ceremony and that could generate a whole list by itself. HMQ 'jumping' from a helicopter. The Olympic Flame being lit, for the first time not by a veteran competitor, but by a group of young upcoming athletes. Etc.

    Much as I abhor Cyclefree's mini-me SeanT agenda when it comes to Islam, on the cartoons and free speech I can see that she does have a point.


    I had no views on Islam until I saw that book burning and the reaction to it. Read Christopher Hitchens on the Rushdie fatwa in his autobiography. He sums up pretty well how I felt.

    My concerns with Islam stem from my belief that liberal values - such as freedom of thought and speech - are a good end in themselves and matter and I don't want them curtailed or removed because we refuse to be clear-sighted about what it means to have a largely credal culture at odds in certain significant ways with Western liberal values, as - say - set out in the ECHR - living in our midst.

    Best summarised in this thread header - http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2017/01/29/angels-and-fools-cyclefree-on-trumps-latest-executive-order/.

    Neither do I. But we have to strive to make things better, not worse, starting from where we actually are, not where you might wish that we were.
    Agree entirely. So let's focus on properly integrating those who are here and are citizens. Rather than making the problem potentially very much worse by letting in huge numbers more and making the issue of integration that much harder. And let's ensure that we really do insist on Western values applying to citizens of Western countries by not permitting the spread of, for instance, a legal system which is completely at odds with our laws thus depriving English Muslim women of their rights. For instance.
  • Having undergone my bi lateral hernia operation yesterday morning and then told I had to walk to my lift in the car park I reflected on my hernia operation in 1973 with a ten day stay in the local hospital.

    After coming round I was offered unlimited tea and a piece of toast then told to get dressed on my own and the family could collect me. Everyone was delightful and by the time I had reached my lift I felt quite pleased with myself and very definitely good practice. Very sore with lots of pain killers and no driving for two weeks but I was very grateful to all the medical staff even though I waited 65 weeks for the operation in labour's Wales NHS.

    The news today of an amazing two months in the Spring should lift the Country though Republicans and the hard left will not be amused.

    Early April Katherine's third child is due, the middle week of April is the Commonwealth Heads of State conference in London (lots of trade deals) and then in mid May a wedding in Windsor Castle with Union Jack's everywhere.

    Following on a good trade deal with the states will put the icing on the cake
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 16,963
    @Big_G_NorthWales Glad it went well. I had a similar operation about five years ago and recovery was very quick.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,339
    Brom said:

    Turns out the woman who ruined Question Time...

    Not sure cutting it 20 mins short ruined it, but still...
  • BromBrom Posts: 859
    Scott_P said:

    Brom said:

    Turns out the woman who ruined Question Time...

    Not sure cutting it 20 mins short ruined it, but still...
    Some of us enjoy watching Diane Abbott getting things wrong
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 5,190

    FF43 said:

    We're losing sight of the real scandal of the papers that are impacting in ways never dreamt of. David Davis and others kept going on about the apparently non-existent impact papers because they wished to show they were on top of their brief, that they had all bases covered and it was all going to be all right. Now we know they absolutely no interest in the outcomes of the detailed negotiations they are entering into on our behalf. Quite simply they are not serious.

    This is just partisanship, as are many of the comments on the assessment reports.

    The assessments do exist. They just don't exist as 58 separate reports. Since DD never claimed they did exist as 58 separate reports, this is a non-story, although Labour are doing a good job in pretending not to understand this simple point.

    As for 'Now we know they absolutely no interest in the outcomes of the detailed negotiations' - for heaven's sake, we 'know' nothing of the sort.

    Why can't either side be a bit grown up in this debate? It's hard enough to limit the damage of Brexit as it is. All that the Continuity Remainers are doing is making the likelihood of a bad outcome more likely, or revisiting arguments which they lost 18 months ago. It's a great pity that Labour Remainers in particular weren't rather more supportive of Cameron 18 months ago when it might actually have helped, rather than weighing in now when all they are doing is obstructing a deal.

    Having said all that, it's also true that the government have made a real pig's ear of this assessments issue. I suppose it would be asking too much of any opposition not to exploit it.
    But David Davis did claim they had 50+ sectoral reports on many occasions. Ministers are being dishonest about about that fact, maybe even misleading you?

    "In excruciating detail", as David Davis would say, here:

    http://jackofkent.com/2017/11/the-early-history-of-the-58-brexit-sector-analyses/
  • @Big_G_NorthWales Glad it went well. I had a similar operation about five years ago and recovery was very quick.

    Thanks - I had it in 1973 but this time is was a bi lateral so both sides. It is very good practice to walk as soon as possible but also rest as needed as feeling very jaded, but it was only yesterday
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 17,768

    Having undergone my bi lateral hernia operation yesterday morning and then told I had to walk to my lift in the car park I reflected on my hernia operation in 1973 with a ten day stay in the local hospital.

    After coming round I was offered unlimited tea and a piece of toast then told to get dressed on my own and the family could collect me. Everyone was delightful and by the time I had reached my lift I felt quite pleased with myself and very definitely good practice. Very sore with lots of pain killers and no driving for two weeks but I was very grateful to all the medical staff even though I waited 65 weeks for the operation in labour's Wales NHS.

    The news today of an amazing two months in the Spring should lift the Country though Republicans and the hard left will not be amused.

    Early April Katherine's third child is due, the middle week of April is the Commonwealth Heads of State conference in London (lots of trade deals) and then in mid May a wedding in Windsor Castle with Union Jack's everywhere.

    Following on a good trade deal with the states will put the icing on the cake

    Welcome back Big G, and I hope you have a speedy recovery.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 1,123
    FF43 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @cpmcgonagle: UK - “We must leave the EU due to stifling Brussels red tape that we are powerless to resist!”

    Also UK - “Why can’t Ireland just ignore the rules and leave their borders open?”

    Whatever else, Brexit will lead to an explosion of red tape.
    I was a at pre Brexit seminar for business last week and the audience was given some statistics.

    Each truck that passes through Dover from another EU country takes on average two minutes to clear customs.

    If the average clearance time were to double to four minutes there would be 17-mile queues on either side of the channel.

    The average clearance time for a truck from a non-EU country is 45 minutes.
  • Having undergone my bi lateral hernia operation yesterday morning and then told I had to walk to my lift in the car park I reflected on my hernia operation in 1973 with a ten day stay in the local hospital.

    After coming round I was offered unlimited tea and a piece of toast then told to get dressed on my own and the family could collect me. Everyone was delightful and by the time I had reached my lift I felt quite pleased with myself and very definitely good practice. Very sore with lots of pain killers and no driving for two weeks but I was very grateful to all the medical staff even though I waited 65 weeks for the operation in labour's Wales NHS.

    The news today of an amazing two months in the Spring should lift the Country though Republicans and the hard left will not be amused.

    Early April Katherine's third child is due, the middle week of April is the Commonwealth Heads of State conference in London (lots of trade deals) and then in mid May a wedding in Windsor Castle with Union Jack's everywhere.

    Following on a good trade deal with the states will put the icing on the cake

    Welcome back Big G, and I hope you have a speedy recovery.
    Thanks Alastair and I promise not to wind you up over London job loses ever again

    My wife will confirm that on occasions I can be a stirer if I put my mind to it
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 17,768

    Having undergone my bi lateral hernia operation yesterday morning and then told I had to walk to my lift in the car park I reflected on my hernia operation in 1973 with a ten day stay in the local hospital.

    After coming round I was offered unlimited tea and a piece of toast then told to get dressed on my own and the family could collect me. Everyone was delightful and by the time I had reached my lift I felt quite pleased with myself and very definitely good practice. Very sore with lots of pain killers and no driving for two weeks but I was very grateful to all the medical staff even though I waited 65 weeks for the operation in labour's Wales NHS.

    The news today of an amazing two months in the Spring should lift the Country though Republicans and the hard left will not be amused.

    Early April Katherine's third child is due, the middle week of April is the Commonwealth Heads of State conference in London (lots of trade deals) and then in mid May a wedding in Windsor Castle with Union Jack's everywhere.

    Following on a good trade deal with the states will put the icing on the cake

    Welcome back Big G, and I hope you have a speedy recovery.
    Thanks Alastair and I promise not to wind you up over London job loses ever again

    My wife will confirm that on occasions I can be a stirer if I put my mind to it
    I have never been accused of being a stirrer. But I hope you won't hold back.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 8,831

    Having undergone my bi lateral hernia operation yesterday morning and then told I had to walk to my lift in the car park I reflected on my hernia operation in 1973 with a ten day stay in the local hospital.

    After coming round I was offered unlimited tea and a piece of toast then told to get dressed on my own and the family could collect me. Everyone was delightful and by the time I had reached my lift I felt quite pleased with myself and very definitely good practice. Very sore with lots of pain killers and no driving for two weeks but I was very grateful to all the medical staff even though I waited 65 weeks for the operation in labour's Wales NHS.

    The news today of an amazing two months in the Spring should lift the Country though Republicans and the hard left will not be amused.

    Early April Katherine's third child is due, the middle week of April is the Commonwealth Heads of State conference in London (lots of trade deals) and then in mid May a wedding in Windsor Castle with Union Jack's everywhere.

    Following on a good trade deal with the states will put the icing on the cake

    Glad it went well. Best of luck with your recuperation.

    And nice to have you back.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 16,963
    FF43 said:

    But David Davis did claim they had 50+ sectoral reports on many occasions. Ministers are being dishonest about about that fact, maybe even misleading you?

    "In excruciating detail", as David Davis would say, here:

    http://jackofkent.com/2017/11/the-early-history-of-the-58-brexit-sector-analyses/

    Your link confirms my point. Ministers repeatedly said they were doing analyses "of over 50 sectors of the economy", with variants of that phrase. They didn't say they had over 50 separate reports.
  • Having undergone my bi lateral hernia operation yesterday morning and then told I had to walk to my lift in the car park I reflected on my hernia operation in 1973 with a ten day stay in the local hospital.

    After coming round I was offered unlimited tea and a piece of toast then told to get dressed on my own and the family could collect me. Everyone was delightful and by the time I had reached my lift I felt quite pleased with myself and very definitely good practice. Very sore with lots of pain killers and no driving for two weeks but I was very grateful to all the medical staff even though I waited 65 weeks for the operation in labour's Wales NHS.

    The news today of an amazing two months in the Spring should lift the Country though Republicans and the hard left will not be amused.

    Early April Katherine's third child is due, the middle week of April is the Commonwealth Heads of State conference in London (lots of trade deals) and then in mid May a wedding in Windsor Castle with Union Jack's everywhere.

    Following on a good trade deal with the states will put the icing on the cake

    Welcome back Big G, and I hope you have a speedy recovery.
    Thanks Alastair and I promise not to wind you up over London job loses ever again

    My wife will confirm that on occasions I can be a stirer if I put my mind to it
    I have never been accused of being a stirrer. But I hope you won't hold back.
    I like your humour - everyone needs it from time to time
  • Cyclefree said:

    Having undergone my bi lateral hernia operation yesterday morning and then told I had to walk to my lift in the car park I reflected on my hernia operation in 1973 with a ten day stay in the local hospital.

    After coming round I was offered unlimited tea and a piece of toast then told to get dressed on my own and the family could collect me. Everyone was delightful and by the time I had reached my lift I felt quite pleased with myself and very definitely good practice. Very sore with lots of pain killers and no driving for two weeks but I was very grateful to all the medical staff even though I waited 65 weeks for the operation in labour's Wales NHS.

    The news today of an amazing two months in the Spring should lift the Country though Republicans and the hard left will not be amused.

    Early April Katherine's third child is due, the middle week of April is the Commonwealth Heads of State conference in London (lots of trade deals) and then in mid May a wedding in Windsor Castle with Union Jack's everywhere.

    Following on a good trade deal with the states will put the icing on the cake

    Glad it went well. Best of luck with your recuperation.

    And nice to have you back.
    Thank you so much
This discussion has been closed.