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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Irish border issue has the potential to bring down Mrs May

SystemSystem Posts: 3,967
edited December 1 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Irish border issue has the potential to bring down Mrs May’s government

Yesterday it was reported by several outlets

Read the full story here


«1345

Comments

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 8,896
    First!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 8,896
    edited December 1
    FPT:

    I agree that the massive swings to the LibDems in tonight's local by's don't say much about the party's national prospects, but it is nevertheless a comment on the current state of national politics that people are so willing to vote for the party most opposed to the approach the national government is currently taking.

    On topic, the Tories have been party to a disunited kingdom ever since a substantial proportion of them took us down the path toward Brexit.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 2,591
    What is the DUP’s favoured position/solution to the Irish border question?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 8,896
    alex. said:

    What is the DUP’s favoured position/solution to the Irish border question?

    As with Brexit generally, much clearer on what they don't want than what they do:

    http://www.mydup.com/news/article/foster-we-will-not-countenance-new-border-in-the-irish-sea
  • archer101auarcher101au Posts: 294
    IanB2 said:

    alex. said:

    What is the DUP’s favoured position/solution to the Irish border question?

    As with Brexit generally, much clearer on what they don't want than what they do:

    http://www.mydup.com/news/article/foster-we-will-not-countenance-new-border-in-the-irish-sea
    If all Ireland was interested in was the integrity of the border (rather than trying to help the EU force the UK to follow EU regulations) this would be a pretty easy thing to resolve.

    You exempt individuals and vehicles under a certain size from inspection under the existing WTO local border rules. It is not material and everyone can just turn a blind eye. As with Sweden/Norway, you say that individuals can cross anywhere but commercial vehicles have to use certain key routes and they need to have certified and declared electronically, just as happens in NAFTA. You then supplement this with spot checks at points away from the border and audits of major companies doing the transport.

    It will not be watertight but more than sufficient. Very few countries do anything else with customs on land borders than spot check in any event.

    There is no reason why the UK or NI needs to follow EU regulations. The UK/EU FTA should agree on sectors where both sides accept each others regulations as equivalent. If there are areas that cannot be agreed, you follow the normal trade rules that exports have to comply with the standards of the country you are entering.

    As long as the above was followed, I suspect the DUP would turn a blind eye to monitoring of this arrangement by checking goods the cross the Irish Sea to ensure they have complied with these rules. This would not be an internal border, but a logical place to manage compliance.
  • felixfelix Posts: 6,872
    IanB2 said:

    FPT:

    I agree that the massive swings to the LibDems in tonight's local by's don't say much about the party's national prospects, but it is nevertheless a comment on the current state of national politics that people are so willing to vote for the party most opposed to the approach the national government is currently taking.

    On topic, the Tories have been party to a disunited kingdom ever since a substantial proportion of them took us down the path toward Brexit.

    And how about last week when the Tories gained a seat and saw votes increase. You also forgot the GE which saw big SNP losses and Tory gains. You also ignore opinion polls which show the Tory vote holding firm despite all the months of bad news and massively negative media coverage. In short a very weak analysis.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,049
    Played right, I'd have thought the DUP could aide May in getting concessions from the EU.
  • DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 82


    You exempt individuals and vehicles under a certain size from inspection under the existing WTO local border rules. It is not material and everyone can just turn a blind eye. As with Sweden/Norway, you say that individuals can cross anywhere but commercial vehicles have to use certain key routes and they need to have certified and declared electronically, just as happens in NAFTA. You then supplement this with spot checks at points away from the border and audits of major companies doing the transport.

    Norway is in the Single Market though, if the UK were too then there would be no problem with your suggestion or keeping the current arrangements. If we're not going to be then there has to be a hard border.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 865

    IanB2 said:

    alex. said:

    What is the DUP’s favoured position/solution to the Irish border question?

    As with Brexit generally, much clearer on what they don't want than what they do:

    http://www.mydup.com/news/article/foster-we-will-not-countenance-new-border-in-the-irish-sea
    If all Ireland was interested in was the integrity of the border (rather than trying to help the EU force the UK to follow EU regulations) this would be a pretty easy thing to resolve.

    You exempt individuals and vehicles under a certain size from inspection under the existing WTO local border rules. It is not material and everyone can just turn a blind eye. As with Sweden/Norway, you say that individuals can cross anywhere but commercial vehicles have to use certain key routes and they need to have certified and declared electronically, just as happens in NAFTA. You then supplement this with spot checks at points away from the border and audits of major companies doing the transport.

    It will not be watertight but more than sufficient. Very few countries do anything else with customs on land borders than spot check in any event.

    There is no reason why the UK or NI needs to follow EU regulations. The UK/EU FTA should agree on sectors where both sides accept each others regulations as equivalent. If there are areas that cannot be agreed, you follow the normal trade rules that exports have to comply with the standards of the country you are entering.

    As long as the above was followed, I suspect the DUP would turn a blind eye to monitoring of this arrangement by checking goods the cross the Irish Sea to ensure they have complied with these rules. This would not be an internal border, but a logical place to manage compliance.
    In talking about Ireland, unfortunately "logic" disappears out of the window. There are too many with vested interests, legal and more importantly, otherwise. Most already ignore the border, taking advantage of differing currency exchange rates and tax impositions of the two jurisdictions. To impose any kind of barrier from outside the island, isn't going to work, or to put one along the Irish Sea. The Isle of Man would become a major conduit for smuggling and would mean that the RN and the HMRC (Customs and Excise) would be obliged to try and police the area.
  • felixfelix Posts: 6,872

    Played right, I'd have thought the DUP could aide May in getting concessions from the EU.

    Like many junior partners they often tend to overplay their hand and end up losing out.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 1,157
    felix said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT:

    I agree that the massive swings to the LibDems in tonight's local by's don't say much about the party's national prospects, but it is nevertheless a comment on the current state of national politics that people are so willing to vote for the party most opposed to the approach the national government is currently taking.

    On topic, the Tories have been party to a disunited kingdom ever since a substantial proportion of them took us down the path toward Brexit.

    And how about last week when the Tories gained a seat and saw votes increase. You also forgot the GE which saw big SNP losses and Tory gains. You also ignore opinion polls which show the Tory vote holding firm despite all the months of bad news and massively negative media coverage. In short a very weak analysis.
    Politics is never simple. But even a modest Lib Dem revival across the south would make the prospects of a Conservative victory much weaker.
  • felixfelix Posts: 6,872

    felix said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT:

    I agree that the massive swings to the LibDems in tonight's local by's don't say much about the party's national prospects, but it is nevertheless a comment on the current state of national politics that people are so willing to vote for the party most opposed to the approach the national government is currently taking.

    On topic, the Tories have been party to a disunited kingdom ever since a substantial proportion of them took us down the path toward Brexit.

    And how about last week when the Tories gained a seat and saw votes increase. You also forgot the GE which saw big SNP losses and Tory gains. You also ignore opinion polls which show the Tory vote holding firm despite all the months of bad news and massively negative media coverage. In short a very weak analysis.
    Politics is never simple. But even a modest Lib Dem revival across the south would make the prospects of a Conservative victory much weaker.
    Yes and there is zero sign of it.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 7,006
    edited December 1
    OT but relevant to betting -- porn on Damian Green's machine is back in the news.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42151148

    Edit: Damian Green is 3/1 against with Ladbrokes but odds-on with PP to be next out.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,049
    IanB2 said:

    FPT:

    I agree that the massive swings to the LibDems in tonight's local by's don't say much about the party's national prospects, but it is nevertheless a comment on the current state of national politics that people are so willing to vote for the party most opposed to the approach the national government is currently taking.

    On topic, the Tories have been party to a disunited kingdom ever since a substantial proportion of them took us down the path toward Brexit.

    More than a bit of confirmation bias there.

    LDs took seat from both Labour and Conservatives in local elections last night.

    It would be more accurate to say they are simply becoming the alternative party of choice for local government once more, with the added benefit of having that "NOTA" brand.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 8,896

    IanB2 said:

    FPT:

    I agree that the massive swings to the LibDems in tonight's local by's don't say much about the party's national prospects, but it is nevertheless a comment on the current state of national politics that people are so willing to vote for the party most opposed to the approach the national government is currently taking.

    On topic, the Tories have been party to a disunited kingdom ever since a substantial proportion of them took us down the path toward Brexit.

    More than a bit of confirmation bias there.

    LDs took seat from both Labour and Conservatives in local elections last night.

    It would be more accurate to say they are simply becoming the alternative party of choice for local government once more, with the added benefit of having that "NOTA" brand.
    I conceded that this didn't indicate a national revival. Nevertheless the LDs weren't ever getting these sorts of swings during the coalition, or shortly after. The shares of the vote they got in last night's contests were massive, and at the least indicate that people are sufficiently unhappy with the major parties to vote for an alternative when it mounts an active campaign.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 1,157
    felix said:

    felix said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT:

    I agree that the massive swings to the LibDems in tonight's local by's don't say much about the party's national prospects, but it is nevertheless a comment on the current state of national politics that people are so willing to vote for the party most opposed to the approach the national government is currently taking.

    On topic, the Tories have been party to a disunited kingdom ever since a substantial proportion of them took us down the path toward Brexit.

    And how about last week when the Tories gained a seat and saw votes increase. You also forgot the GE which saw big SNP losses and Tory gains. You also ignore opinion polls which show the Tory vote holding firm despite all the months of bad news and massively negative media coverage. In short a very weak analysis.
    Politics is never simple. But even a modest Lib Dem revival across the south would make the prospects of a Conservative victory much weaker.
    Yes and there is zero sign of it.
    There is little sign, but not zero. Last nights good LD tally shows it is possible.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 7,340
    Nigel Dodds's point is an odd one. Devolution is asymmetrical.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 7,006
    tlg86 said:

    Nigel Dodds's point is an odd one. Devolution is asymmetrical.

    Surely the point is that the SNP will demand any concessions to Northern Ireland be extended to Scotland. I do not suppose Nicola Sturgeon will give a damn about symmetry.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,485
    Ot. Anyyone know why the police are doing a character assassination on Damian Green? I wonder whether in the light of recent sex cases they now believe they can simply ignore natural justice?

    It's pretty shabby and a far cry from when they were considered the benchmark for police forces around the world.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,485
    If Charles is around....Any idea what has happened to Medicx fund?
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 1,330
    edited December 1
    felix said:

    felix said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT:

    I agree that the massive swings to the LibDems in tonight's local by's don't say much about the party's national prospects, but it is nevertheless a comment on the current state of national politics that people are so willing to vote for the party most opposed to the approach the national government is currently taking.
    On topic, the Tories have been party to a disunited kingdom ever since a substantial proportion of them took us down the path toward Brexit.

    And how about last week when the Tories gained a seat and saw votes increase. You also forgot the GE which saw big SNP losses and Tory gains. You also ignore opinion polls which show the Tory vote holding firm despite all the months of bad news and massively negative media coverage. In short a very weak analysis.
    Politics is never simple. But even a modest Lib Dem revival across the south would make the prospects of a Conservative victory much weaker.
    Yes and there is zero sign of it.
    Mr Felix, I suspect you have not spoken to many moderate Conservative voters recently. They are dismayed by the incompetence and extremism of the current crop of Tory leaders, and fearful about the damage being done to the economy.

    Also, of course, the damage being done to local services by the Conservatives` savage attacks on local government and the NHS.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 5,371
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT:

    I agree that the massive swings to the LibDems in tonight's local by's don't say much about the party's national prospects, but it is nevertheless a comment on the current state of national politics that people are so willing to vote for the party most opposed to the approach the national government is currently taking.

    On topic, the Tories have been party to a disunited kingdom ever since a substantial proportion of them took us down the path toward Brexit.

    More than a bit of confirmation bias there.

    LDs took seat from both Labour and Conservatives in local elections last night.

    It would be more accurate to say they are simply becoming the alternative party of choice for local government once more, with the added benefit of having that "NOTA" brand.
    I conceded that this didn't indicate a national revival. Nevertheless the LDs weren't ever getting these sorts of swings during the coalition, or shortly after. The shares of the vote they got in last night's contests were massive, and at the least indicate that people are sufficiently unhappy with the major parties to vote for an alternative when it mounts an active campaign.
    I checked the results on Britain Elects. One gain each from Tory, Labour and UKIP, plus one hold for the LibDems but more to the point they scored over 50% in all these elections (one over 60%) and in 2 of the four they had not stood last time. That's quite impressive.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,049
    edited December 1
    Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

    I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

    My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 5,371
    alex. said:

    What is the DUP’s favoured position/solution to the Irish border question?

    That's a good question. It seems that they don't want a hard border with Eire, but they don't want any differences between mainland Britain and NI. That seems contradictory unless the UK remain in the Customs Union and Single Market, which TM wants to leave.
    It looks like either a massive fudge or a minority Tory government.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 12,009

    Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

    I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

    My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.

    Also worth noting that the allegation today is not thousands of porn images viewed but thousands of porn "thumbnail" images viewed. Going back a decade or so ago when this occured then someone going once to one site could download dozens if not hundreds of thumbnails on a single page.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 12,009

    alex. said:

    What is the DUP’s favoured position/solution to the Irish border question?

    That's a good question. It seems that they don't want a hard border with Eire, but they don't want any differences between mainland Britain and NI. That seems contradictory unless the UK remain in the Customs Union and Single Market, which TM wants to leave.
    It looks like either a massive fudge or a minority Tory government.
    Or unless we get a trade deal with the EU.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,540
    PClipp said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT:

    I agree that the massive swings to the LibDems in tonight's local by's don't say much about the party's national prospects, but it is nevertheless a comment on the current state of national politics that people are so willing to vote for the party most opposed to the approach the national government is currently taking.
    On topic, the Tories have been party to a disunited kingdom ever since a substantial proportion of them took us down the path toward Brexit.

    And how about last week when the Tories gained a seat and saw votes increase. You also forgot the GE which saw big SNP losses and Tory gains. You also ignore opinion polls which show the Tory vote holding firm despite all the months of bad news and massively negative media coverage. In short a very weak analysis.
    Politics is never simple. But even a modest Lib Dem revival across the south would make the prospects of a Conservative victory much weaker.
    Yes and there is zero sign of it.
    Mr Felix, I suspect you have not spoken to many moderate Conservative voters recently. They are dismayed by the incompetence and extremism of the current crop of Tory leaders, and fearful about the damage being done to the economy.

    Also, of course, the damage being done to local services by the Conservatives` savage attacks on local government and the NHS.
    Given that so many Tory MP’s are former LG councillors it’s quite surprising the contempt they appear to have for the current crop.

    Or. of course, maybe not!
  • felixfelix Posts: 6,872
    PClipp said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT:

    I agree that the massive swings to the LibDems in tonight's local by's don't say much about the party's national prospects, but it is nevertheless a comment on the current state of national politics that people are so willing to vote for the party most opposed to the approach the national government is currently taking.
    On topic, the Tories have been party to a disunited kingdom ever since a substantial proportion of them took us down the path toward Brexit.

    And how about last week when the Tories gained a seat and saw votes increase. You also forgot the GE which saw big SNP losses and Tory gains. You also ignore opinion polls which show the Tory vote holding firm despite all the months of bad news and massively negative media coverage. In short a very weak analysis.
    Politics is never simple. But even a modest Lib Dem revival across the south would make the prospects of a Conservative victory much weaker.
    Yes and there is zero sign of it.
    Mr Felix, I suspect you have not spoken to many moderate Conservative voters recently. They are dismayed by the incompetence and extremism of the current crop of Tory leaders, and fearful about the damage being done to the economy.

    Also, of course, the damage being done to local services by the Conservatives` savage attacks on local government and the NHS.
    Unspoofable!
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 5,371
    felix said:

    Played right, I'd have thought the DUP could aide May in getting concessions from the EU.

    Like many junior partners they often tend to overplay their hand and end up losing out.
    There is little downside for the DUP in bringing down TMay (not even necessarily the government) as long as they are seen in NI as protecting their voters' interests. TMay needs to take them seriously.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 5,371

    alex. said:

    What is the DUP’s favoured position/solution to the Irish border question?

    That's a good question. It seems that they don't want a hard border with Eire, but they don't want any differences between mainland Britain and NI. That seems contradictory unless the UK remain in the Customs Union and Single Market, which TM wants to leave.
    It looks like either a massive fudge or a minority Tory government.
    Or unless we get a trade deal with the EU.
    Would a trade deal negate the need for customs checks and border posts? Do you have any examples that exist currently? Genuine questions.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,049

    Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

    I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

    My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.

    Also worth noting that the allegation today is not thousands of porn images viewed but thousands of porn "thumbnail" images viewed. Going back a decade or so ago when this occured then someone going once to one site could download dozens if not hundreds of thumbnails on a single page.
    Good point.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 5,371

    Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

    I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

    My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.

    Also worth noting that the allegation today is not thousands of porn images viewed but thousands of porn "thumbnail" images viewed. Going back a decade or so ago when this occured then someone going once to one site could download dozens if not hundreds of thumbnails on a single page.
    Good point.
    Look, the pornography was apparently legal, so who cares.
    But you guys (Tory supporters?) coming up with ways in which the images *could* have come to be on the computer smacks a bit of desperation.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42151148
    "But Mr Lewis said a check of the computer's internet history over a three-month period showed pornography had been viewed "extensively".
    On some days, websites containing pornography were being searched for and opened for several hours.
    Mr Lewis, who retired from the Metropolitan Police in 2014, said although "you can't put fingers on a keyboard", a number of factors meant that he was sure it was Mr Green, the MP for Ashford, Kent, who was accessing the pornographic material.
    His analysis of the way the computer had been used left the former detective constable in "no doubt whatsoever" that it was Mr Green, who was then an opposition immigration spokesman but is now the first secretary of state.
    "The computer was in Mr Green's office, on his desk, logged in, his account, his name," said Mr Lewis, who at the time was working as a computer forensics examiner for SO15, the counter-terrorism command.
    "In between browsing pornography, he was sending emails from his account, his personal account, reading documents... it was ridiculous to suggest anybody else could have done it."
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 6,104
    edited December 1
    Looks like the Trump visit isn’t going to happen, although they’ll avoid formally revoking the invite. Good for the government - and glad to see TMay publically condemning Trump’s actions.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 15,056
    edited December 1

    Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

    I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

    My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.

    Also worth noting that the allegation today is not thousands of porn images viewed but thousands of porn "thumbnail" images viewed. Going back a decade or so ago when this occured then someone going once to one site could download dozens if not hundreds of thumbnails on a single page.
    Also worth reading on the BBC link that the notebook highlights the reference to "pornography" - but The Times and the BBC seem remarkably uncurious about (to me) the far more interesting non-highlighted section of his notebook, quote "called Bruce to ask for list of all journalists involved in leaks". Makes you wonder - who was on that list? And what organisations might not want that to be the focus, instead of the contents of the computer....
  • Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

    I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

    My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.

    Also worth noting that the allegation today is not thousands of porn images viewed but thousands of porn "thumbnail" images viewed. Going back a decade or so ago when this occured then someone going once to one site could download dozens if not hundreds of thumbnails on a single page.
    Good point.
    Sounds like it was found in the browser cache if it's loads of thumbnails.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 2,591

    Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

    I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

    My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.

    Also worth noting that the allegation today is not thousands of porn images viewed but thousands of porn "thumbnail" images viewed. Going back a decade or so ago when this occured then someone going once to one site could download dozens if not hundreds of thumbnails on a single page.
    Good point.
    It’s amazing Green was ever seen in public at all, considering he is supposed to have spent “several hours a day” browsing porn sites.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 41,925

    Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

    I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

    My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.

    Yes, its disgraceful. When did the Met get given the task of moral guardianship for parliament ? Or the wider police force for anyone

    Check this:

    https://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/david-allen-green/2012/08/shameful-and-nasty-prosecution-simon-walsh

    Neil Lewis is talking WAY outside his remit in that interview, the levels of confidentiality he is breaching there are mind blowing. Horrendous.
  • archer101auarcher101au Posts: 294
    DM_Andy said:


    You exempt individuals and vehicles under a certain size from inspection under the existing WTO local border rules. It is not material and everyone can just turn a blind eye. As with Sweden/Norway, you say that individuals can cross anywhere but commercial vehicles have to use certain key routes and they need to have certified and declared electronically, just as happens in NAFTA. You then supplement this with spot checks at points away from the border and audits of major companies doing the transport.

    Norway is in the Single Market though, if the UK were too then there would be no problem with your suggestion or keeping the current arrangements. If we're not going to be then there has to be a hard border.
    Norway is not in the Customs Union which is what is relevant in this comparison.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 41,925

    Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

    I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

    My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.

    Also worth noting that the allegation today is not thousands of porn images viewed but thousands of porn "thumbnail" images viewed. Going back a decade or so ago when this occured then someone going once to one site could download dozens if not hundreds of thumbnails on a single page.
    Good point.
    Look, the pornography was apparently legal, so who cares.
    But you guys (Tory supporters?) coming up with ways in which the images *could* have come to be on the computer smacks a bit of desperation.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42151148
    "But Mr Lewis said a check of the computer's internet history over a three-month period showed pornography had been viewed "extensively".
    On some days, websites containing pornography were being searched for and opened for several hours.
    Mr Lewis, who retired from the Metropolitan Police in 2014, said although "you can't put fingers on a keyboard", a number of factors meant that he was sure it was Mr Green, the MP for Ashford, Kent, who was accessing the pornographic material.
    His analysis of the way the computer had been used left the former detective constable in "no doubt whatsoever" that it was Mr Green, who was then an opposition immigration spokesman but is now the first secretary of state.
    "The computer was in Mr Green's office, on his desk, logged in, his account, his name," said Mr Lewis, who at the time was working as a computer forensics examiner for SO15, the counter-terrorism command.
    "In between browsing pornography, he was sending emails from his account, his personal account, reading documents... it was ridiculous to suggest anybody else could have done it."
    What business of the police is it ??
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 17,801

    OT but relevant to betting -- porn on Damian Green's machine is back in the news.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42151148

    Edit: Damian Green is 3/1 against with Ladbrokes but odds-on with PP to be next out.

    A bit self incriminating

    * after the force I was ordered to destroy non relevant information but chose not to

    * when I left the force I took a police notebook relating to this politically damaging case

    So hearsay, breach of confidence and relying on stolen evidence. All used to attack a cabinet minister over something that isn't illegal

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 14,976
    Pulpstar said:

    Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

    I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

    My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.

    Yes, its disgraceful. When did the Met get given the task of moral guardianship for parliament ? Or the wider police force for anyone

    Check this:

    https://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/david-allen-green/2012/08/shameful-and-nasty-prosecution-simon-walsh

    Neil Lewis is talking WAY outside his remit in that interview, the levels of confidentiality he is breaching there are mind blowing. Horrendous.
    This is seriously worrying. Former policemen talking about a case they worked on a decade ago, in which no charges were brought and where the evidence no longer exists. For political reasons. Don’t police officers sign confidentiality agreements?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 17,988

    Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

    I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

    My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.

    Also worth noting that the allegation today is not thousands of porn images viewed but thousands of porn "thumbnail" images viewed. Going back a decade or so ago when this occured then someone going once to one site could download dozens if not hundreds of thumbnails on a single page.
    Good point.
    Look, the pornography was apparently legal, so who cares.
    But you guys (Tory supporters?) coming up with ways in which the images *could* have come to be on the computer smacks a bit of desperation.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42151148
    "But Mr Lewis said a check of the computer's internet history over a three-month period showed pornography had been viewed "extensively".
    On some days, websites containing pornography were being searched for and opened for several hours.
    Mr Lewis, who retired from the Metropolitan Police in 2014, said although "you can't put fingers on a keyboard", a number of factors meant that he was sure it was Mr Green, the MP for Ashford, Kent, who was accessing the pornographic material.
    His analysis of the way the computer had been used left the former detective constable in "no doubt whatsoever" that it was Mr Green, who was then an opposition immigration spokesman but is now the first secretary of state.
    "The computer was in Mr Green's office, on his desk, logged in, his account, his name," said Mr Lewis, who at the time was working as a computer forensics examiner for SO15, the counter-terrorism command.
    "In between browsing pornography, he was sending emails from his account, his personal account, reading documents... it was ridiculous to suggest anybody else could have done it."
    The issues are bigger than the pornography. We have police leaking stuff to the media from an investigation deliberately to hurt an individual, where no criminal offence has occurred. If they do it to Green, they could do it to you, or anyone else.

    The police's behaviour is the issue here, not anything Green might or might not have looked at.
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 884

    Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

    I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

    My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.

    Also worth noting t... single page.
    Good point.
    Look, the pornography was apparently legal, so who cares.
    But you guys (Tory supporters?) coming up with ways in which the images *could* have come to be on the computer smacks a bit of desperation.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42151148
    "But Mr Lewis said a check of the computer's internet history over a three-month period showed pornography had been viewed "extensively".
    On some days, websites containing pornography were being searched for and opened for several hours.
    Mr Lewis, who retired from the Metropolitan Police in 2014, said although "you can't put fingers on a keyboard", a number of factors meant that he was sure it was Mr Green, the MP for Ashford, Kent, who was accessing the pornographic material.
    His analysis of the way the computer had been used left the former detective constable in "no doubt whatsoever" that it was Mr Green, who was then an opposition immigration spokesman but is now the first secretary of state.
    "The computer was in Mr Green's office, on his desk, logged in, his account, his name," said Mr Lewis, who at the time was working as a computer forensics examiner for SO15, the counter-terrorism command.
    "In between browsing pornography, he was sending emails from his account, his personal account, reading documents... it was ridiculous to suggest anybody else could have done it."
    The issues are bigger than the pornography. We have police leaking stuff to the media from an investigation deliberately to hurt an individual, where no criminal offence has occurred. If they do it to Green, they could do it to you, or anyone else.

    The police's behaviour is the issue here, not anything Green might or might not have looked at.
    Remember that this was a 'Leak enquiry', at the behest of the Labour govt. It was in breach of Parliamentary privilege, allowed by this speaker against the normal rules of parliament. Green was arrested - an MP arrested for being in receipt of information which the govt wanted to remain secret.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 17,801
    Roger said:

    If Charles is around....Any idea what has happened to Medicx fund?

    Don't know MedicX (although think the trust may have a chunky investment... gulp)

    That kind of fund is really a bond like instrument pretending to be equity, so I would assume it's to do with a shift in interest rate expectations.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,540
    Charles said:

    OT but relevant to betting -- porn on Damian Green's machine is back in the news.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42151148

    Edit: Damian Green is 3/1 against with Ladbrokes but odds-on with PP to be next out.

    A bit self incriminating

    * after the force I was ordered to destroy non relevant information but chose not to

    * when I left the force I took a police notebook relating to this politically damaging case

    So hearsay, breach of confidence and relying on stolen evidence. All used to attack a cabinet minister over something that isn't illegal

    It’s somewhat difficult to imagine what Green has done to the police, or to individual policemen, to warrant this kind of abuse of position.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 7,729

    The issues are bigger than the pornography. We have police leaking stuff to the media from an investigation deliberately to hurt an individual, where no criminal offence has occurred. If they do it to Green, they could do it to you, or anyone else.

    The police's behaviour is the issue here, not anything Green might or might not have looked at.

    Would it be cynical of me to suggest they are still smarting over the entirely legitimate criticism they received for doing Gordon Brown's dirty work for him and are still frantically trying to justify their behaviour?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 15,056

    felix said:

    Played right, I'd have thought the DUP could aide May in getting concessions from the EU.

    Like many junior partners they often tend to overplay their hand and end up losing out.
    There is little downside for the DUP in bringing down TMay (not even necessarily the government) as long as they are seen in NI as protecting their voters' interests. TMay needs to take them seriously.
    TMay as PM => DUP getting pork for NI => DUP heroes back home - so no reason to force an election that risks that arrangement.

    Jeremy Corbyn as PM puts that arrangement - and Brexit - at risk for the DUP.

    People on here (and more widely) really don't seem to have a clue as to what has been happening, behnd the scenes, where Brexit is actually being thrashed out and delivered. And that is, both the hard-line Brexiteers and the DUP play a role to allow May to show the down-side: of how Brexit happens on WTO terms. Effectively, she can say to Brussels, on the payments (with the Brexiteers) and with the Irish border (with the DUP):

    "Gentlemen, what you are proposing means that I have to terminate our discussions for a couple of months, whilst my party decides on a new Prime Minister - because accepting what you are taking about means I cannot survive in post. Good luck in continuing your negotiations in the New Year with Boris...." Ditto for being hard-nosed on the Irish border - "a general election will likely bring the level of confusion on forming a Government that Germany is currently seeing.....and most likely, an even worse outcome in terms of a final deal, with a revitalised UKIP, meaning Nigel Farage holds the balance of power....Good luck in continuing your negotiations in the New Year with Nigel..."

    May's domestic weakness - and the alternatives - are her negotiating strength in the Brexit talks. And she is clearly using that to effect.

    The other thing people aren't taking note of is that, at the end of the Brexit process, all parts of the Tory Party will be able to come together, saying that they each used their position to assist the Prime Minister in delivering the best deal there could be in all the circumstances, to ensure the voters' demand that we leave the EU, whilst not destroying the UK economy and/or trade between us. The Tory Party comes out of Brexit shoulder to shoulder. EU, pah, that old wound is behind us. Now, on with making the best of Brexit UK.

    The Tory Party will be very good at rationalising to itself how the various components worked together to achieve the final Brexit deal.
  • Roger said:

    Ot. Anyyone know why the police are doing a character assassination on Damian Green? I wonder whether in the light of recent sex cases they now believe they can simply ignore natural justice?

    It's pretty shabby and a far cry from when they were considered the benchmark for police forces around the world.



  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,339
    @GeorgeWParker: Hugely reassured by professional police handling of Damian Green case: not just thorough logging of alleged presence of legal porn on a computer (unrelated to their inquiry) but public spiritedness of former officers bringing it to public attention years later

    @JoeMurphyLondon: @GeorgeWParker Also, the keen forward-thinking of a counter-terror detective who, when instructed to delete data, makes sure it can be undeleted later if needed.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 17,988
    ydoethur said:

    The issues are bigger than the pornography. We have police leaking stuff to the media from an investigation deliberately to hurt an individual, where no criminal offence has occurred. If they do it to Green, they could do it to you, or anyone else.

    The police's behaviour is the issue here, not anything Green might or might not have looked at.

    Would it be cynical of me to suggest they are still smarting over the entirely legitimate criticism they received for doing Gordon Brown's dirty work for him and are still frantically trying to justify their behaviour?
    Oh yes, so very cynical.

    And so very correct. ;)

    Witness also the Mitchell Plebgate debacle.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 7,729

    ydoethur said:

    The issues are bigger than the pornography. We have police leaking stuff to the media from an investigation deliberately to hurt an individual, where no criminal offence has occurred. If they do it to Green, they could do it to you, or anyone else.

    The police's behaviour is the issue here, not anything Green might or might not have looked at.

    Would it be cynical of me to suggest they are still smarting over the entirely legitimate criticism they received for doing Gordon Brown's dirty work for him and are still frantically trying to justify their behaviour?
    Oh yes, so very cynical.

    And so very correct. ;)

    Witness also the Mitchell Plebgate debacle.
    Sir Humphrey: 'cynic: what an idealist calls a realist.' :smile:
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 884

    Charles said:

    OT but relevant to betting -- porn on Damian Green's machine is back in the news.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42151148

    Edit: Damian Green is 3/1 against with Ladbrokes but odds-on with PP to be next out.

    A bit self incriminating

    * after the force I was ordered to destroy non relevant information but chose not to

    * when I left the force I took a police notebook relating to this politically damaging case

    So hearsay, breach of confidence and relying on stolen evidence. All used to attack a cabinet minister over something that isn't illegal

    It’s somewhat difficult to imagine what Green has done to the police, or to individual policemen, to warrant this kind of abuse of position.
    This comes down to Bob Quick originally, who was fired for revealing a secret document to photographers in Downing Street, after having been the officer who apparently ordered the arrest of Damian Green for 'leaking' a secret document from a civil servant.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,339

    May's domestic weakness - and the alternatives - are her negotiating strength in the Brexit talks. And she is clearly using that to effect.

    ROFLMAO

    How quickly the Brexiteers spun from "TMay needs a huge majority to strengthen her hand in the negotiations" to "May's domestic weakness - and the alternatives - are her negotiating strength in the Brexit talks"

    Loving your work...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 15,056
    Scott_P said:

    May's domestic weakness - and the alternatives - are her negotiating strength in the Brexit talks. And she is clearly using that to effect.

    ROFLMAO

    How quickly the Brexiteers spun from "TMay needs a huge majority to strengthen her hand in the negotiations" to "May's domestic weakness - and the alternatives - are her negotiating strength in the Brexit talks"

    Loving your work...
    You work with what the voters give you....
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,540
    Scott_P said:

    May's domestic weakness - and the alternatives - are her negotiating strength in the Brexit talks. And she is clearly using that to effect.

    ROFLMAO

    How quickly the Brexiteers spun from "TMay needs a huge majority to strengthen her hand in the negotiations" to "May's domestic weakness - and the alternatives - are her negotiating strength in the Brexit talks"

    Loving your work...
    Yup; what is missing from that analysis is an acceptance of the fact that bringing down TM as PM will almost certainly lead to yet another GE, in which the Tories are very unlikely to improve their position.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 19,105

    felix said:

    Played right, I'd have thought the DUP could aide May in getting concessions from the EU.

    Like many junior partners they often tend to overplay their hand and end up losing out.
    There is little downside for the DUP in bringing down TMay (not even necessarily the government) as long as they are seen in NI as protecting their voters' interests. TMay needs to take them seriously.
    TMay as PM => DUP getting pork for NI => DUP heroes back home - so no reason to force an election that risks that arrangement.

    Jeremy Corbyn as PM puts that arrangement - and Brexit - at risk for the DUP.

    People on here (and more widely) really don't seem to have a clue as to what has been happening, behnd the scenes, where Brexit is actually being thrashed out and delivered. And that is, both the hard-line Brexiteers and the DUP play a role to allow May to show the down-side: of how Brexit happens on WTO terms. Effectively, she can say to Brussels, on the payments (with the Brexiteers) and with the Irish border (with the DUP):

    "Gentlemen, what you are proposing means that I have to terminate our discussions for a couple of months, whilst my party decides on a new Prime Minister - because accepting what you are taking about means I cannot survive in post. Good luck in continuing your negotiations in the New Year with Boris...." Ditto for being hard-nosed on the Irish border - "a general election will likely bring the level of confusion on forming a Government that Germany is currently seeing.....and most likely, an even worse outcome in terms of a final deal, with a revitalised UKIP, meaning Nigel Farage holds the balance of power....Good luck in continuing your negotiations in the New Year with Nigel..."

    May's domestic weakness - and the alternatives - are her negotiating strength in the Brexit talks. And she is clearly using that to effect.

    The other thing people aren't taking note of is that, at the end of the Brexit process, all parts of the Tory Party will be able to come together, saying that they each used their position to assist the Prime Minister in delivering the best deal there could be in all the circumstances, to ensure the voters' demand that we leave the EU, whilst not destroying the UK economy and/or trade between us. The Tory Party comes out of Brexit shoulder to shoulder. EU, pah, that old wound is behind us. Now, on with making the best of Brexit UK.

    The Tory Party will be very good at rationalising to itself how the various components worked together to achieve the final Brexit deal.
    Labour might try and outbid the Conservatives, in order to get DUP support.
  • AnExileinD4AnExileinD4 Posts: 116
    Re Green

    Ignoring the police behavior, it is incredibly concerning that their obligation to permanently delete data is a matter of indifference to them.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 39,452
    Good morning, everyone.

    Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen... mwahahaha!

    I did make both these points yesterday. It's also intensely obnoxious for the EU to try and carve a non-member state up with a customs border.

    Mr. D4, indeed. Confidence in police is not exactly brimming as it is.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 14,976

    Roger said:

    Ot. Anyyone know why the police are doing a character assassination on Damian Green? I wonder whether in the light of recent sex cases they now believe they can simply ignore natural justice?

    It's pretty shabby and a far cry from when they were considered the benchmark for police forces around the world.



    ttps://twitter.com/Mr_John_Oxley/status/936493160875864064
    Wow, I agree with Dan Hodges!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 15,056
    edited December 1
    Sean_F said:

    Labour might try and outbid the Conservatives, in order to get DUP support.

    Tempered by a considerable degree of cynicism that the money then has to actually be delivered by McDonnell.... No, they have TMay exactly where they want her. She'll do, thanks.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 9,623
    Sandpit said:

    /they worked on a decade ago, in which no charges were brought and where the evidence no longer exists. For political reasons. Don’t police officers sign confidentiality agreements?

    Reading the link, it's clear that Lewis is motivated partly by Green's very personal attack on Quick plus the flat denial of any porn on the systems, both of which looked unwise. *If* Lewis did find what he says, then hearing his former boss attacked as a liar for something he had himself seen would be intolerable. It's obviously possible that he's making it up, but if it's true then I'm not sure that he has a duty to remain silent and let that happen.

    I've nothing against Green, who seems pleasant and competent at his job, and I don't really care if he sometimes looked at legal porn 10 years ago (yes, it shouldn't have happened at work, but not IMO a hanging offence): the political implications are limited since if he quit someone else would take the job and we'd all have forgotten about it next week. But I don't think we know enough to be sure that Lewis is behaving unreasonably. I think the Cabinet Office enquiry should include Lewis in their investigation (which apparently they haven't yet), and then we should all just wait and see the findings.
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 884

    Sandpit said:

    /they worked on a decade ago, in which no charges were brought and where the evidence no longer exists. For political reasons. Don’t police officers sign confidentiality agreements?

    Reading the link, it's clear that Lewis is motivated partly by Green's very personal attack on Quick plus the flat denial of any porn on the systems, both of which looked unwise. *If* Lewis did find what he says, then hearing his former boss attacked as a liar for something he had himself seen would be intolerable. It's obviously possible that he's making it up, but if it's true then I'm not sure that he has a duty to remain silent and let that happen.

    I've nothing against Green, who seems pleasant and competent at his job, and I don't really care if he sometimes looked at legal porn 10 years ago (yes, it shouldn't have happened at work, but not IMO a hanging offence): the political implications are limited since if he quit someone else would take the job and we'd all have forgotten about it next week. But I don't think we know enough to be sure that Lewis is behaving unreasonably. (which apparently they haven't yet), and then we should all just wait and see the findings.
    Do they actually have any power to investigate a member of the public, regardless of his former position?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 19,105
    PClipp said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT:

    I agree that the massive swings to the LibDems in tonight's local by's don't say much about the party's national prospects, but it is nevertheless a comment on the current state of national politics that people are so willing to vote for the party most opposed to the approach the national government is currently taking.
    On topic, the Tories have been party to a disunited kingdom ever since a substantial proportion of them took us down the path toward Brexit.

    And how about last week when the Tories gained a seat and saw votes increase. You also forgot the GE which saw big SNP losses and Tory gains. You also ignore opinion polls which show the Tory vote holding firm despite all the months of bad news and massively negative media coverage. In short a very weak analysis.
    Politics is never simple. But even a modest Lib Dem revival across the south would make the prospects of a Conservative victory much weaker.
    Yes and there is zero sign of it.
    Mr Felix, I suspect you have not spoken to many moderate Conservative voters recently. They are dismayed by the incompetence and extremism of the current crop of Tory leaders, and fearful about the damage being done to the economy.

    Also, of course, the damage being done to local services by the Conservatives` savage attacks on local government and the NHS.
    My impression, based on conversations and on the polling, is that most current Conservative voters are reasonably happy with the government. People who are hostile support Labour.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 17,988

    Sandpit said:

    /they worked on a decade ago, in which no charges were brought and where the evidence no longer exists. For political reasons. Don’t police officers sign confidentiality agreements?

    Reading the link, it's clear that Lewis is motivated partly by Green's very personal attack on Quick plus the flat denial of any porn on the systems, both of which looked unwise. *If* Lewis did find what he says, then hearing his former boss attacked as a liar for something he had himself seen would be intolerable. It's obviously possible that he's making it up, but if it's true then I'm not sure that he has a duty to remain silent and let that happen.

    I've nothing against Green, who seems pleasant and competent at his job, and I don't really care if he sometimes looked at legal porn 10 years ago (yes, it shouldn't have happened at work, but not IMO a hanging offence): the political implications are limited since if he quit someone else would take the job and we'd all have forgotten about it next week. But I don't think we know enough to be sure that Lewis is behaving unreasonably. I think the Cabinet Office enquiry should include Lewis in their investigation (which apparently they haven't yet), and then we should all just wait and see the findings.
    Oh come off it. He's behaving utterly unreasonably.

    Imagine the police investigated you for something, and you were cleared. However, because a policeman does not like you, they leaked embarrassing information about your personal life (*) just because they wanted to get at you. Not illegal behaviour, and nothing to do with the initial investigation, but just leaking sh*t because they can do.

    And yes, it could happen to you, or me. And there's nothing I could do about it because I'm just a pleb.

    The police should not act in this manner. It's levels of wrongness piled up into a massive heap of wrong.

    (*) Not that I'm saying you have anything to hide, but you know what I mean ...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 14,976
    edited December 1

    Sandpit said:

    /they worked on a decade ago, in which no charges were brought and where the evidence no longer exists. For political reasons. Don’t police officers sign confidentiality agreements?

    Reading the link, it's clear that Lewis is motivated partly by Green's very personal attack on Quick plus the flat denial of any porn on the systems, both of which looked unwise. *If* Lewis did find what he says, then hearing his former boss attacked as a liar for something he had himself seen would be intolerable. It's obviously possible that he's making it up, but if it's true then I'm not sure that he has a duty to remain silent and let that happen.

    I've nothing against Green, who seems pleasant and competent at his job, and I don't really care if he sometimes looked at legal porn 10 years ago (yes, it shouldn't have happened at work, but not IMO a hanging offence): the political implications are limited since if he quit someone else would take the job and we'd all have forgotten about it next week. But I don't think we know enough to be sure that Lewis is behaving unreasonably. I think the Cabinet Office enquiry should include Lewis in their investigation (which apparently they haven't yet), and then we should all just wait and see the findings.
    But why are Mr Quick and Mr Lewis even allowed to talk about these things? It’s a decade-old story which only came up again after the former policemen mentioned the pornography angle to a newspaper in an attempt to discredit Mr Green. I would have assumed that there was a secrecy clause in the contracts of policemen that prevented them from talking to journalists in this way.

    There was also one other person very involved in the case at the time, and would know all the details. His role then was the Director of Public Prosecutions, I wonder what he’s up to these days...?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,321

    Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

    I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

    My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.

    If it wasn’t for Orwell you’d begin to wonder if there was something about the name Blair. It may be an overstatement to say that is when the rot set in but his leadership of the Met was a disaster.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,485

    Roger said:

    Ot. Anyyone know why the police are doing a character assassination on Damian Green? I wonder whether in the light of recent sex cases they now believe they can simply ignore natural justice?

    It's pretty shabby and a far cry from when they were considered the benchmark for police forces around the world.



    Great minds!....except Dan Hodges who's a clown
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 8,831

    Sandpit said:

    /they worked on a decade ago, in which no charges were brought and where the evidence no longer exists. For political reasons. Don’t police officers sign confidentiality agreements?

    Reading the link, it's clear that Lewis is motivated partly by Green's very personal attack on Quick plus the flat denial of any porn on the systems, both of which looked unwise. *If* Lewis did find what he says, then hearing his former boss attacked as a liar for something he had himself seen would be intolerable. It's obviously possible that he's making it up, but if it's true then I'm not sure that he has a duty to remain silent and let that happen.

    I've nothing against Green, who seems pleasant and competent at his job, and I don't really care if he sometimes looked at legal porn 10 years ago (yes, it shouldn't have happened at work, but not IMO a hanging offence): the political implications are limited since if he quit someone else would take the job and we'd all have forgotten about it next week. But I don't think we know enough to be sure that Lewis is behaving unreasonably. I think the Cabinet Office enquiry should include Lewis in their investigation (which apparently they haven't yet), and then we should all just wait and see the findings.
    Employees are under a duty of confidentiality to their employers. And this duty continues even after they leave in respect of information gained in the course of their employment. A fortiori for information about the details of a police investigation. Revealing confidential information - and the information he has revealed is confidential - is a breach of that duty. Wanting to defend his former boss is not a sufficient justification for doing so. The proper course would be to raise it in private to those doing the inquiry into Mr Green. Not in public. Not to the press.

    This is ABC stuff for investigators. That the police appear to be unaware of these basic rules or willing to ignore them is simply wrong and worrying, given the powers they have.
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 884
    DavidL said:

    Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

    I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

    My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.

    If it wasn’t for Orwell you’d begin to wonder if there was something about the name Blair. It may be an overstatement to say that is when the rot set in but his leadership of the Met was a disaster.
    His leadership of the Met did exactly what it was designed to do
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 14,976
    DavidL said:

    Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

    I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

    My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.

    If it wasn’t for Orwell you’d begin to wonder if there was something about the name Blair. It may be an overstatement to say that is when the rot set in but his leadership of the Met was a disaster.
    It was the start of the overt politicisation of the police “service”. This, along with speed cameras, have rapidly destroyed the trust that the average man in the street has for those who are supposed to keep us safe. Huge implications.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 17,801

    alex. said:

    What is the DUP’s favoured position/solution to the Irish border question?

    That's a good question. It seems that they don't want a hard border with Eire, but they don't want any differences between mainland Britain and NI. That seems contradictory unless the UK remain in the Customs Union and Single Market, which TM wants to leave.
    It looks like either a massive fudge or a minority Tory government.
    As said previous - a customs union with a customs union

    Choose the key areas (say agriculture). NI sector regs remain aligned with ROI (mechanism is by devolving the power to Stormont rather than by stating that explicitly). Add papers of origin and NI products can freely be sold into EU.

    UK adds a special dispensation saying NI ag products can be sold in the U.K. regardless of reg differences.

    Job done

  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 8,494
    Cyclefree said:

    Sandpit said:

    /they worked on a decade ago, in which no charges were brought and where the evidence no longer exists. For political reasons. Don’t police officers sign confidentiality agreements?

    Reading the link, it's clear that Lewis is motivated partly by Green's very personal attack on Quick plus the flat denial of any porn on the systems, both of which looked unwise. *If* Lewis did find what he says, then hearing his former boss attacked as a liar for something he had himself seen would be intolerable. It's obviously possible that he's making it up, but if it's true then I'm not sure that he has a duty to remain silent and let that happen.

    I've nothing against Green, who seems pleasant and competent at his job, and I don't really care if he sometimes looked at legal porn 10 years ago (yes, it shouldn't have happened at work, but not IMO a hanging offence): the political implications are limited since if he quit someone else would take the job and we'd all have forgotten about it next week. But I don't think we know enough to be sure that Lewis is behaving unreasonably. I think the Cabinet Office enquiry should include Lewis in their investigation (which apparently they haven't yet), and then we should all just wait and see the findings.
    Employees are under a duty of confidentiality to their employers. And this duty continues even after they leave in respect of information gained in the course of their employment. A fortiori for information about the details of a police investigation. Revealing confidential information - and the information he has revealed is confidential - is a breach of that duty. Wanting to defend his former boss is not a sufficient justification for doing so. The proper course would be to raise it in private to those doing the inquiry into Mr Green. Not in public. Not to the press.

    This is ABC stuff for investigators. That the police appear to be unaware of these basic rules or willing to ignore them is simply wrong and worrying, given the powers they have.
    +1. I find it interesting, and most heartening, that almost everyone defends Green against this egregious attack. A bad sign for the individuals involved in these leaks of confidential police investigations.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 9,623
    TonyE said:



    Do they actually have any power to investigate a member of the public, regardless of his former position?

    Not sure what you mean? The Cabinet Office has been asked by Green to look into the issue and come to an impartial view. If a former policeman says he has relevant evidence, they should interview him and weigh up whether he seems credible and how far it's actually relevant. I don't think they have the power to force him to give evidence, but if he refuses then they can reasonably shrug it off.

    Incidentally, as with some of the sexual harassment offences, I do feel uneasy when someone suddenly exposes something a decade after the event. One can be honestly sure of something in retrospect that was slightly different at the time.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,485
    edited December 1
    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    If Charles is around....Any idea what has happened to Medicx fund?

    Don't know MedicX (although think the trust may have a chunky investment... gulp)

    That kind of fund is really a bond like instrument pretending to be equity, so I would assume it's to do with a shift in interest rate expectations.
    It hasn't moved more than one or two % for years and then it drops nearly 10% in a couple of weeks (coinciding with me buying a load!!)


    https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=vw+casino+ad&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b&gfe_rd=cr&dcr=0&ei=-BEhWo7SJ8i3gAbQi7zYDQ
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 17,801

    Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

    I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

    My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.

    Also worth noting that the allegation today is not thousands of porn images viewed but thousands of porn "thumbnail" images viewed. Going back a decade or so ago when this occured then someone going once to one site could download dozens if not hundreds of thumbnails on a single page.
    Good point.
    Look, the pornography was apparently legal, so who cares.
    But you guys (Tory supporters?) coming up with ways in which the images *could* have come to be on the computer smacks a bit of desperation.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42151148
    "But Mr Lewis said a check of the computer's internet history over a three-month period showed pornography had been viewed "extensively".
    On some days, websites containing pornography were being searched for and opened for several hours.
    Mr Lewis, who retired from the Metropolitan Police in 2014, said although "you can't put fingers on a keyboard", a number of factors meant that he was sure it was Mr Green, the MP for Ashford, Kent, who was accessing the pornographic material.
    His analysis of the way the computer had been used left the former detective constable in "no doubt whatsoever" that it was Mr Green, who was then an opposition immigration spokesman but is now the first secretary of state.
    "The computer was in Mr Green's office, on his desk, logged in, his account, his name," said Mr Lewis, who at the time was working as a computer forensics examiner for SO15, the counter-terrorism command.
    "In between browsing pornography, he was sending emails from his account, his personal account, reading documents... it was ridiculous to suggest anybody else could have done it."
    Former policeman reveals publicly confidential and privileged information. He backs it up with documents stolen from the Met
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 884
    Charles said:

    alex. said:

    What is the DUP’s favoured position/solution to the Irish border question?

    That's a good question. It seems that they don't want a hard border with Eire, but they don't want any differences between mainland Britain and NI. That seems contradictory unless the UK remain in the Customs Union and Single Market, which TM wants to leave.
    It looks like either a massive fudge or a minority Tory government.
    As said previous - a customs union with a customs union

    Choose the key areas (say agriculture). NI sector regs remain aligned with ROI (mechanism is by devolving the power to Stormont rather than by stating that explicitly). Add papers of origin and NI products can freely be sold into EU.

    UK adds a special dispensation saying NI ag products can be sold in the U.K. regardless of reg differences.

    Job done

    It actually doesn't need to do that - it's the EU regs that are very stifling (a form of protectionism). If they just stay within wider intl SPS regs (via Codex), then the UK would never have any problem. The issue would be Mainland exports to NI, where the fear would be about cross border pass through.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,328

    Sandpit said:

    /they worked on a decade ago, in which no charges were brought and where the evidence no longer exists. For political reasons. Don’t police officers sign confidentiality agreements?

    Reading the link, it's clear that Lewis is motivated partly by Green's very personal attack on Quick plus the flat denial of any porn on the systems, both of which looked unwise. *If* Lewis did find what he says, then hearing his former boss attacked as a liar for something he had himself seen would be intolerable. It's obviously possible that he's making it up, but if it's true then I'm not sure that he has a duty to remain silent and let that happen.

    I've nothing against Green, who seems pleasant and competent at his job, and I don't really care if he sometimes looked at legal porn 10 years ago (yes, it shouldn't have happened at work, but not IMO a hanging offence): the political implications are limited since if he quit someone else would take the job and we'd all have forgotten about it next week. But I don't think we know enough to be sure that Lewis is behaving unreasonably. I think the Cabinet Office enquiry should include Lewis in their investigation (which apparently they haven't yet), and then we should all just wait and see the findings.
    Green is one of the more benign of the Cabinet, but didn't this porn allegation arise out of another investigation?

    Surely this is best left to the cabinet office investigation, and not spin by either side? A little bit of due process in order, rather than a social media lynching of either politician or ex policemen?
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 1,330
    Sean_F said:

    PClipp said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT:

    I agree that the massive swings to the LibDems in tonight's local by's don't say much about the party's national prospects, but it is nevertheless a comment on the current state of national politics that people are so willing to vote for the party most opposed to the approach the national government is currently taking.
    On topic, the Tories have been party to a disunited kingdom ever since a substantial proportion of them took us down the path toward Brexit.

    And how about last week when the Tories gained a seat and saw votes increase. You also forgot the GE which saw big SNP losses and Tory gains. You also ignore opinion polls which show the Tory vote holding firm despite all the months of bad news and massively negative media coverage. In short a very weak analysis.
    Politics is never simple. But even a modest Lib Dem revival across the south would make the prospects of a Conservative victory much weaker.
    Yes and there is zero sign of it.
    Mr Felix, I suspect you have not spoken to many moderate Conservative voters recently. They are dismayed by the incompetence and extremism of the current crop of Tory leaders, and fearful about the damage being done to the economy.

    Also, of course, the damage being done to local services by the Conservatives` savage attacks on local government and the NHS.
    My impression, based on conversations and on the polling, is that most current Conservative voters are reasonably happy with the government. People who are hostile support Labour.
    Mr Fear, how do you explain last night`s four Lib Dem triumphs in local government elections in different parts of the country? I think you are a bit out-of-date, as the opinion polls are. They adjust the raw figures too much.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,386

    alex. said:

    What is the DUP’s favoured position/solution to the Irish border question?

    That's a good question. It seems that they don't want a hard border with Eire, but they don't want any differences between mainland Britain and NI. That seems contradictory unless the UK remain in the Customs Union and Single Market, which TM wants to leave.
    It looks like either a massive fudge or a minority Tory government.
    Or unless we get a trade deal with the EU.
    Would a trade deal negate the need for customs checks and border posts? Do you have any examples that exist currently? Genuine questions.
    Not entirely sure but I think Switzerland might be an example. (Reading that back i must say i am genuonely unsure and not being sarcastic). Their relationship with the EU is all based on individual deals rather than being in the EEA. My uncertainty is over the degree of customs checks. So this may be a poor example.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 7,105
    Charles said:

    OT but relevant to betting -- porn on Damian Green's machine is back in the news.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42151148

    Edit: Damian Green is 3/1 against with Ladbrokes but odds-on with PP to be next out.

    A bit self incriminating

    * after the force I was ordered to destroy non relevant information but chose not to

    * when I left the force I took a police notebook relating to this politically damaging case

    So hearsay, breach of confidence and relying on stolen evidence. All used to attack a cabinet minister over something that isn't illegal

    Has Lewis potentially committed a crime?
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 884

    TonyE said:



    Do they actually have any power to investigate a member of the public, regardless of his former position?

    Not sure what you mean? The Cabinet Office has been asked by Green to look into the issue and come to an impartial view. If a former policeman says he has relevant evidence, they should interview him and weigh up whether he seems credible and how far it's actually relevant. I don't think they have the power to force him to give evidence, but if he refuses then they can reasonably shrug it off.

    Incidentally, as with some of the sexual harassment offences, I do feel uneasy when someone suddenly exposes something a decade after the event. One can be honestly sure of something in retrospect that was slightly different at the time.
    Well I would be concerned that if the former policeman can supply any evidence, he would have obtained it by theft.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 8,494
    PClipp said:

    Sean_F said:

    PClipp said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT:

    I agree that the massive swings to the LibDems in tonight's local by's don't say much about the party's national prospects, but it is nevertheless a comment on the current state of national politics that people are so willing to vote for the party most opposed to the approach the national government is currently taking.
    On topic, the Tories have been party to a disunited kingdom ever since a substantial proportion of them took us down the path toward Brexit.

    And how about last week when the Tories gained a seat and saw votes increase. You also forgot the GE which saw big SNP losses and Tory gains. You also ignore opinion polls which show the Tory vote holding firm despite all the months of bad news and massively negative media coverage. In short a very weak analysis.
    Politics is never simple. But even a modest Lib Dem revival across the south would make the prospects of a Conservative victory much weaker.
    Yes and there is zero sign of it.
    Mr Felix, I suspect you have not spoken to many moderate Conservative voters recently. They are dismayed by the incompetence and extremism of the current crop of Tory leaders, and fearful about the damage being done to the economy.

    Also, of course, the damage being done to local services by the Conservatives` savage attacks on local government and the NHS.
    My impression, based on conversations and on the polling, is that most current Conservative voters are reasonably happy with the government. People who are hostile support Labour.
    Mr Fear, how do you explain last night`s four Lib Dem triumphs in local government elections in different parts of the country? I think you are a bit out-of-date, as the opinion polls are. They adjust the raw figures too much.
    Just as the LDs were doing well in by elections, even parliamentary ones, in autumn winter 2016. It didn't translate into much in the locals or generals. The LD by election effect is a well known phenomenon; they don't seem to win seats when resources cannot be entirely localised.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,321
    TonyE said:

    DavidL said:

    Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

    I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

    My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.

    If it wasn’t for Orwell you’d begin to wonder if there was something about the name Blair. It may be an overstatement to say that is when the rot set in but his leadership of the Met was a disaster.
    His leadership of the Met did exactly what it was designed to do
    Tories have always instinctively supported the police. It is the natural response for those with a vested interest in the property laws of a society and the rule of law. But in recent years, since Ian Blair, this has been tested to the limit. The never ending shambles listed in May’s famous speech, the disgraceful and almost certainly illegal conduct in the Green investigation and since, the undoubtedly criminal dishonesty in Plebgate, we are left, particularly in London, with a force that can no longer be trusted or believed.

    If that was the objective it succeeded. It’s time some pensions were removed.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 7,105
    edited December 1
    The BBC 5 Live interview with Lewis this morning was extraordinary. Prefaced with a load of cod justification for him coming forward and not once was he asked whether any crime had been committed or if it was a police matter.

    None of which means Green is safe, but I was pretty appalled by Lewis and not much less appalled by the interview.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 8,494
    edited December 1

    The BBC 5 Live interview with Lewis this morning was extraordinary. Prefaced with a load of justification for him coming forward and not once was he asked whether any crime had been committed or if it was a police matter.

    None of which means Green is safe, but I was pretty appalled by Lewis and not much less appalled by the interview.

    Indeed.

    Is there any liability for a breach of confidentiality in public? There should be.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 8,494
    @PClipp - best not to throw around accusations using that word; it gets people into trouble.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 14,976

    The BBC 5 Live interview with Lewis this morning was extraordinary. Prefaced with a load of cod justification for him coming forward and not once was he asked whether any crime had been committed or if it was a police matter.

    None of which means Green is safe, but I was pretty appalled by Lewis and not much less appalled by the interview.

    That’s shocking. I hope Green reports this to the BBC Trust and to OFCOM.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,386

    Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

    I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

    My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.

    My faith in the police evaporated over many years but was driven by two events primarily - the actions at and subsequent lies over Orgreave and the stitching up of Andrew Mitchell. The fact that the police thought they couldn't should get away with such abuses of their position means that are no longer fit for purpose.
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 884
    DavidL said:

    TonyE said:

    DavidL said:

    Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

    I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

    My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.

    If it wasn’t for Orwell you’d begin to wonder if there was something about the name Blair. It may be an overstatement to say that is when the rot set in but his leadership of the Met was a disaster.
    His leadership of the Met did exactly what it was designed to do
    Tories have always instinctively supported the police. It is the natural response for those with a vested interest in the property laws of a society and the rule of law. But in recent years, since Ian Blair, this has been tested to the limit. The never ending shambles listed in May’s famous speech, the disgraceful and almost certainly illegal conduct in the Green investigation and since, the undoubtedly criminal dishonesty in Plebgate, we are left, particularly in London, with a force that can no longer be trusted or believed.

    If that was the objective it succeeded. It’s time some pensions were removed.
    The objective it would seem, in legal terms, of the Blair govt, was to increase the criminal law to the extent that no non legally educated man could ever be sure that he hadn't broken a part of it. To make us all 'guilty'. That was the effect of adding 3000 new offences, and removing the differentiation between arrestable and non arrestable offences.

    To effect that, a police force was required which would enforce it - politically aware of the power it had been given.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 19,105
    PClipp said:

    Sean_F said:

    PClipp said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT:

    I agree that the massive swings to the LibDems in tonight's local by's don't say much about the party's national prospects, but it is nevertheless a comment on the current state of national politics that people are so willing to vote for the party most opposed to the approach the national government is currently taking.
    On topic, the Tories have been party to a disunited kingdom ever since a substantial proportion of them took us down the path toward Brexit.

    And how about last week when the Tories gained a seat and saw votes increase. You also forgot the GE which saw big SNP losses and Tory gains. You also ignore opinion polls which show the Tory vote holding firm despite all the months of bad news and massively negative media coverage. In short a very weak analysis.
    Politics is never simple. But even a modest Lib Dem revival across the south would make the prospects of a Conservative victory much weaker.
    Yes and there is zero sign of it.
    Mr Felix, I suspect you have not spoken to many moderate Conservative voters recently. They are dismayed by the incompetence and extremism of the current crop of Tory leaders, and fearful about the damage being done to the economy.

    Also, of course, the damage being done to local services by the Conservatives` savage attacks on local government and the NHS.
    My impression, based on conversations and on the polling, is that most current Conservative voters are reasonably happy with the government. People who are hostile support Labour.
    Mr Fear, how do you explain last night`s four Lib Dem triumphs in local government elections in different parts of the country? I think you are a bit out-of-date, as the opinion polls are. They adjust the raw figures too much.
    Local by elections turn on local factors. There are weeks when both the Conservatives and Labour also do well.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,386

    Sandpit said:

    /they worked on a decade ago, in which no charges were brought and where the evidence no longer exists. For political reasons. Don’t police officers sign confidentiality agreements?

    Reading the link, it's clear that Lewis is motivated partly by Green's very personal attack on Quick plus the flat denial of any porn on the systems, both of which looked unwise. *If* Lewis did find what he says, then hearing his former boss attacked as a liar for something he had himself seen would be intolerable. It's obviously possible that he's making it up, but if it's true then I'm not sure that he has a duty to remain silent and let that happen.

    I've nothing against Green, who seems pleasant and competent at his job, and I don't really care if he sometimes looked at legal porn 10 years ago (yes, it shouldn't have happened at work, but not IMO a hanging offence): the political implications are limited since if he quit someone else would take the job and we'd all have forgotten about it next week. But I don't think we know enough to be sure that Lewis is behaving unreasonably. I think the Cabinet Office enquiry should include Lewis in their investigation (which apparently they haven't yet), and then we should all just wait and see the findings.
    Green is one of the more benign of the Cabinet, but didn't this porn allegation arise out of another investigation?

    Surely this is best left to the cabinet office investigation, and not spin by either side? A little bit of due process in order, rather than a social media lynching of either politician or ex policemen?
    Another investigation that should never have involved the police.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,386
    PClipp said:

    Mortimer said:

    @PClipp - best not to throw around accusations using that word; it gets people into trouble.

    Whereas being corrupt does not.... Right.....
    I don't think Mortimer is necessarily disagreeing with you. Rather he wants to avoid getting OGH into trouble through direct accusations against individuals who might sue.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 36,073
    PClipp said:

    Sean_F said:

    PClipp said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT:

    I agree that the massive swings to the LibDems in tonight's local by's don't say much about the party's national prospects, but it is nevertheless a comment on the current state of national politics that people are so willing to vote for the party most opposed to the approach the national government is currently taking.
    On topic, the Tories have been party to a disunited kingdom ever since a substantial proportion of them took us down the path toward Brexit.

    And how about last week when the Tories gained a seat and saw votes increase. You also forgot the GE which saw big SNP losses and Tory gains. You also ignore opinion polls which show the Tory vote holding firm despite all the months of bad news and massively negative media coverage. In short a very weak analysis.
    Politics is never simple. But even a modest Lib Dem revival across the south would make the prospects of a Conservative victory much weaker.
    Yes and there is zero sign of it.
    Mr Felix, I suspect you have not spoken to many moderate Conservative voters recently. They are dismayed by the incompetence and extremism of the current crop of Tory leaders, and fearful about the damage being done to the economy.

    Also, of course, the damage being done to local services by the Conservatives` savage attacks on local government and the NHS.
    My impression, based on conversations and on the polling, is that most current Conservative voters are reasonably happy with the government. People who are hostile support Labour.
    Mr Fear, how do you explain last night`s four Lib Dem triumphs in local government elections in different parts of the country? I think you are a bit out-of-date, as the opinion polls are. They adjust the raw figures too much.
    Since June most opinion polls no longer adjust the raw data in the same way they did at the general election.

    LD success is explained partly by NIMBYISM and opposition to local plans not just an anti government protest vote, after all the biggest swing to the LDs last night came when they won a seat off Labour, not one of their gains from the Tories
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,546
    Cyclefree said:

    Sandpit said:

    /they worked on a decade ago, in which no charges were brought and where the evidence no longer exists. For political reasons. Don’t police officers sign confidentiality agreements?

    Reading the link, it's clear that Lewis is motivated partly by Green's very personal attack on Quick plus the flat denial of any porn on the systems, both of which looked unwise. *If* Lewis did find what he says, then hearing his former boss attacked as a liar for something he had himself seen would be intolerable. It's obviously possible that he's making it up, but if it's true then I'm not sure that he has a duty to remain silent and let that happen.

    I've nothing against Green, who seems pleasant and competent at his job, and I don't really care if he sometimes looked at legal porn 10 years ago (yes, it shouldn't have happened at work, but not IMO a hanging offence): the political implications are limited since if he quit someone else would take the job and we'd all have forgotten about it next week. But I don't think we know enough to be sure that Lewis is behaving unreasonably. I think the Cabinet Office enquiry should include Lewis in their investigation (which apparently they haven't yet), and then we should all just wait and see the findings.
    Employees are under a duty of confidentiality to their employers. And this duty continues even after they leave in respect of information gained in the course of their employment. A fortiori for information about the details of a police investigation. Revealing confidential information - and the information he has revealed is confidential - is a breach of that duty. Wanting to defend his former boss is not a sufficient justification for doing so. The proper course would be to raise it in private to those doing the inquiry into Mr Green. Not in public. Not to the press.

    This is ABC stuff for investigators. That the police appear to be unaware of these basic rules or willing to ignore them is simply wrong and worrying, given the powers they have.
    Totally agree.
    There are principles at stake rather more important than the career of Damian Green, and whether or not one has sympathy for him is entirely irrelevant.
    Nick is surely aware of the hugely controversial case from which this 'evidence' originated in the first place. That the police - retired or not - should compound their offence in this manner is unacceptable.
    And what on earth is meant or implied by: "I don't think we know enough to be sure that Lewis is behaving unreasonably..." ?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 9,623



    Oh come off it. He's behaving utterly unreasonably.

    Imagine the police investigated you for something, and you were cleared. However, because a policeman does not like you, they leaked embarrassing information about your personal life (*) just because they wanted to get at you. Not illegal behaviour, and nothing to do with the initial investigation, but just leaking sh*t because they can do.

    And yes, it could happen to you, or me. And there's nothing I could do about it because I'm just a pleb.

    The police should not act in this manner. It's levels of wrongness piled up into a massive heap of wrong.

    (*) Not that I'm saying you have anything to hide, but you know what I mean ...

    Yes, I see that, and I think it's peculiar that he kept his notes. But it's part of a series of events. If someone falsely accused a former boss who I liked (I'm not saying this is the case here, but it's possible), I don't think I'd stay silent.

    Like Fox I think we should basically leave it to the Cabinet Office to investigate, as I think Green has asked them to do, and avoid piling in on either Green or his accusers.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,328
    DavidL said:

    TonyE said:

    DavidL said:

    Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

    I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

    My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.

    If it wasn’t for Orwell you’d begin to wonder if there was something about the name Blair. It may be an overstatement to say that is when the rot set in but his leadership of the Met was a disaster.
    His leadership of the Met did exactly what it was designed to do
    Tories have always instinctively supported the police. It is the natural response for those with a vested interest in the property laws of a society and the rule of law. But in recent years, since Ian Blair, this has been tested to the limit. The never ending shambles listed in May’s famous speech, the disgraceful and almost certainly illegal conduct in the Green investigation and since, the undoubtedly criminal dishonesty in Plebgate, we are left, particularly in London, with a force that can no longer be trusted or believed.

    If that was the objective it succeeded. It’s time some pensions were removed.
    I think one of the more disheartening of modern political trends is for the sensible wings of both conservatism and of liberalism to want to discredit and undermine our democratic organisations and institutions.

    There may well be a few rotten apples in the barrel, but attacking the overall institution does permanent damage. This applies to both Parliament and police, and from both Left and Right.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 36,073
    Ironically the DUP propping up a weak Corbyn minority government along with the LDs, SNP, Plaid and Greens with the Tories still the largest party and Corbyn and Starmer having to complete Brexit themselves would probably be excellent news for the Tories poll rating even if it did mean a spell out of government.

    They would also have opposition almost entirely to themselves.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,546

    Sandpit said:

    /they worked on a decade ago, in which no charges were brought and where the evidence no longer exists. For political reasons. Don’t police officers sign confidentiality agreements?

    Reading the link, it's clear that Lewis is motivated partly by Green's very personal attack on Quick plus the flat denial of any porn on the systems, both of which looked unwise. *If* Lewis did find what he says, then hearing his former boss attacked as a liar for something he had himself seen would be intolerable. It's obviously possible that he's making it up, but if it's true then I'm not sure that he has a duty to remain silent and let that happen.

    I've nothing against Green, who seems pleasant and competent at his job, and I don't really care if he sometimes looked at legal porn 10 years ago (yes, it shouldn't have happened at work, but not IMO a hanging offence): the political implications are limited since if he quit someone else would take the job and we'd all have forgotten about it next week. But I don't think we know enough to be sure that Lewis is behaving unreasonably. I think the Cabinet Office enquiry should include Lewis in their investigation (which apparently they haven't yet), and then we should all just wait and see the findings.
    Green is one of the more benign of the Cabinet, but didn't this porn allegation arise out of another investigation?

    Surely this is best left to the cabinet office investigation, and not spin by either side? A little bit of due process in order, rather than a social media lynching of either politician or ex policemen?
    I don't care much about Green one way or the other, but the police behaviour is, on the face of it, absolutely unacceptable. To criticise it is not 'social media lynching'.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 17,801
    TonyE said:

    Charles said:

    alex. said:

    What is the DUP’s favoured position/solution to the Irish border question?

    That's a good question. It seems that they don't want a hard border with Eire, but they don't want any differences between mainland Britain and NI. That seems contradictory unless the UK remain in the Customs Union and Single Market, which TM wants to leave.
    It looks like either a massive fudge or a minority Tory government.
    As said previous - a customs union with a customs union

    Choose the key areas (say agriculture). NI sector regs remain aligned with ROI (mechanism is by devolving the power to Stormont rather than by stating that explicitly). Add papers of origin and NI products can freely be sold into EU.

    UK adds a special dispensation saying NI ag products can be sold in the U.K. regardless of reg differences.

    Job done

    It actually doesn't need to do that - it's the EU regs that are very stifling (a form of protectionism). If they just stay within wider intl SPS regs (via Codex), then the UK would never have any problem. The issue would be Mainland exports to NI, where the fear would be about cross border pass through.
    AIUI, UK rules on animal welfare are generally higher than in the rest of the EU (don't eat Danish bacon).

    Papers of origin should cover concern about pass through.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 39,452
    Mr. B, as we have a new Black Rod (not ex-military, I think), it's worth recalling it was the first female serjeant-at-arms, usually a former military man but in this case a former civil servant, who let the police rifle through MPs' offices.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jill_Pay

    An example of "Yay, diversity!" trumping "Yay, competence for the job!"

    Zhuge Liang said that people should be found for jobs, not jobs for people.
This discussion has been closed.