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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Damian Green’s computer is none of our business

SystemSystem Posts: 3,967
edited December 2 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Damian Green’s computer is none of our business

Why would former policemen leak details of an investigation that didn’t result in a prosecution (never mind a conviction), which took place nine years ago and where the details were incidental to the alleged act being investigated?

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,546
    Pretty well agree with all of that.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,546
    Though, as has been pointed out in an earlier thread, it is just about conceivable (albeit unlikely) that the images could have gotten on his computer inadvertently - multiple tabs open, and he clicked on a link emailed by someone - so it's not an absolute given that someone is lying. Though it seems likely.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,546
    Oh, and third.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 8,896
    edited December 2
    Second.

    Yet he appears to have been dishonest.

    And the argument that we need have no standards because it's "their business" and they are subject to election is absurd - particularly given our voting system with so many MPs well sheltered from normal electoral pressure.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 30,411
    IanB2 said:

    Second.

    Yet he appears to have been dishonest.

    Even if he has (which isn't proven), that doesn't justify the actions of the police officer.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 25,253
    The British government has issued a fresh warning about the security risks of using Russian anti-virus software.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-42202191
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 8,896
    RobD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Second.

    Yet he appears to have been dishonest.

    Even if he has (which isn't proven), that doesn't justify the actions of the police officer.
    True, and I didn't defend the actions of the officer. Attacking the failings of the officer doesn't however change the merits of whatever Green might have done and said.
  • Ally_BAlly_B Posts: 162
    I concur with your view Nigelb. As David says, under these circumstances it isn't a sackable offence. Nor, in this case, do I think it appropriate for ex-Policemen to comment on what was found at that time. It does have the feel of Plebgate to it. Green shouldn't have done what is alleged on a work's computer but I'm afraid it reinforces my opinion of most politicians as individuals who are out of touch with the real world and I'll leave it at that.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 25,253
    Very disappointing start for England in the cricket.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 25,253
    edited December 2
    ABC News on Friday evening corrected an explosive special report that aired in the morning saying that Donald Trump, as a candidate for president, had asked Michael Flynn to make contact with Russians.

    During "World News Tonight," ABC News investigative reporter Brian Ross said the source who had provided the initial information for his story later told him that it was as president-elect, not as a candidate, that Trump asked Flynn to contact the Russians.

    http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/01/media/abc-news-flynn-correction/index.html

    I believe there is a term for this....
  • RobDRobD Posts: 30,411

    ABC News on Friday evening corrected an explosive special report that aired in the morning saying that Donald Trump, as a candidate for president, had asked Michael Flynn to make contact with Russians.

    During "World News Tonight," ABC News investigative reporter Brian Ross said the source who had provided the initial information for his story later told him that it was as president-elect, not as a candidate, that Trump asked Flynn to contact the Russians.

    http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/01/media/abc-news-flynn-correction/index.html

    I believe there is a term for this....

    Why am I not surprised? No doubt caused by their desperation to see Trump out.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 25,253
    Woozers,

    Part of the memo focuses on targets that the LA ICE office believes to be of interest to DJI. "DJI's criteria for selecting accounts to target appears to focus on the account holder's ability to disrupt critical infrastructure," it said. The memo goes on to say that DJI is particularly interested in infrastructure like railroads and utilities, companies that provide drinking water as well as weapon storage facilities. The LA ICE office concludes that it, "assesses with high confidence the critical infrastructure and law enforcement entities using DJI systems are collecting sensitive intelligence that the Chinese government could use to conduct physical or cyber attacks against the United States and its population."

    https://www.engadget.com/2017/11/30/homeland-security-claims-dji-drones-spying-china/
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 25,253
    RobD said:

    ABC News on Friday evening corrected an explosive special report that aired in the morning saying that Donald Trump, as a candidate for president, had asked Michael Flynn to make contact with Russians.

    During "World News Tonight," ABC News investigative reporter Brian Ross said the source who had provided the initial information for his story later told him that it was as president-elect, not as a candidate, that Trump asked Flynn to contact the Russians.

    http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/01/media/abc-news-flynn-correction/index.html

    I believe there is a term for this....

    Why am I not surprised? No doubt caused by their desperation to see Trump out.
    The mainstream media are not doing themselves any favours. If anything they just strengthen Trump and his base, because they then have concrete examples of Fake News.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 25,253
    edited December 2
    Can never have enough EU integration...

    Martin Schulz, the leader of the rival Social Democrats (SPD), told an interview with Spiegel magazine he would insist on deeper integration as a condition of joining any new government under Mrs Merkel.

    In particular, he said he would demand German support for Emmanuel Macron’s proposals for a Brussels-based finance minister and single budget for the Eurozone.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/01/merkel-faces-demand-eu-integration-price-end-government-crisis/
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 17,801
    Your analysis is right @david_herdson but I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion.

    Regardless of what Green got up to (and I can't imagine why you'd want to watch porn in the office.... surely a bit... messy?) these allegations shouldn't be ignored

    We have a gross breach of trust and possible criminality by (former) members of the police for either personal revenge or political objectives. That is unacceptable and the authorities should come down on them like a ton of bricks
  • RobDRobD Posts: 30,411
    Charles said:

    Your analysis is right @david_herdson but I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion.

    Regardless of what Green got up to (and I can't imagine why you'd want to watch porn in the office.... surely a bit... messy?) these allegations shouldn't be ignored

    We have a gross breach of trust and possible criminality by (former) members of the police for either personal revenge or political objectives. That is unacceptable and the authorities should come down on them like a ton of bricks

    I read that the officer is under formal investigation by the directorate of professional standards.
  • AnExileinD4AnExileinD4 Posts: 116
    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    Your analysis is right @david_herdson but I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion.

    Regardless of what Green got up to (and I can't imagine why you'd want to watch porn in the office.... surely a bit... messy?) these allegations shouldn't be ignored

    We have a gross breach of trust and possible criminality by (former) members of the police for either personal revenge or political objectives. That is unacceptable and the authorities should come down on them like a ton of bricks

    I read that the officer is under formal investigation by the directorate of professional standards.
    I’m not sure it matters, does it. The allegations have allowed newspapers to run stories in their usual form - misleading statements in inverted commas. The no smoke without fire enthusiasts, and there are many, will be out in force.

    That ex-police have behaved in a way which is, on any objective basis, startling will be forgotten. Is it a police culture-thing or is it a one-off? One hopes the latter, one suspects the former.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 30,411

    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    Your analysis is right @david_herdson but I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion.

    Regardless of what Green got up to (and I can't imagine why you'd want to watch porn in the office.... surely a bit... messy?) these allegations shouldn't be ignored

    We have a gross breach of trust and possible criminality by (former) members of the police for either personal revenge or political objectives. That is unacceptable and the authorities should come down on them like a ton of bricks

    I read that the officer is under formal investigation by the directorate of professional standards.
    I’m not sure it matters, does it. The allegations have allowed newspapers to run stories in their usual form - misleading statements in inverted commas. The no smoke without fire enthusiasts, and there are many, will be out in force.

    That ex-police have behaved in a way which is, on any objective basis, startling will be forgotten. Is it a police culture-thing or is it a one-off? One hopes the latter, one suspects the former.
    You are right, but hopefully he can be made an example out of so that others don't decide to repeat it.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 20,315
    Charles said:

    Your analysis is right @david_herdson but I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion.

    Regardless of what Green got up to (and I can't imagine why you'd want to watch porn in the office.... surely a bit... messy?) these allegations shouldn't be ignored

    We have a gross breach of trust and possible criminality by (former) members of the police for either personal revenge or political objectives. That is unacceptable and the authorities should come down on them like a ton of bricks

    Where would you recommend for watching porn?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 24,874
    Imagine my surprise to discover that the Moggster has been hanging out with Steve Bannon, the charming far-right enabler of white supremacists. He’s getting more like the Tory version of Jeremy Corbyn every day.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 25,253
    edited December 2
    Oh dear...the convicts have just run themselves out....snigger
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 24,874
    I don’t know the ins and outs of this story, I haven’t followed it; but on a practical, political level Green is surely diminished and, therefore, finished - whether he’s sacked or not. If that’s down to leaking by the police, then that is wrong. Full stop.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 14,976
    Another excellent Saturday morning read from David Herdson. Whatever the motivations of the police officers involved - and it’s correct that they be investigated here- the media outlets need to understand that there a difference between what’s in the public interest and what the public might find interesting.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 17,801
    edited December 2

    I don’t know the ins and outs of this story, I haven’t followed it; but on a practical, political level Green is surely diminished and, therefore, finished - whether he’s sacked or not. If that’s down to leaking by the police, then that is wrong. Full stop.

    Most humiliating was yesterday's story that David Davis is "throwing his cloak of protection" around Green.

    I know DD has said he will retire post Brexit, but once a politician starts showing a willingness and ability to protect his own that's a very interesting development
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,546

    I don’t know the ins and outs of this story, I haven’t followed it; but on a practical, political level Green is surely diminished and, therefore, finished ....

    Perhaps; perhaps not.
    I suspect their might be more public sympathy for him than you suspect. The evidence against him (had he been an employee) would probably not have be accepted by an employment tribunal given that it is both tainted and a decade old. There was no victim in his case - and I think one must add that almost everyone lies about sex at some time.

    So far little noted has been David Davis' threat to resign if Green is sacked.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 14,976

    Oh dear...the convicts have just run themselves out....snigger

    Not a bad start to the morning afternoon from the visitors.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,546
    Anderson has been seen off by the Aussies. Next half hour will be critical.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,546
    Charles said:

    I don’t know the ins and outs of this story, I haven’t followed it; but on a practical, political level Green is surely diminished and, therefore, finished - whether he’s sacked or not. If that’s down to leaking by the police, then that is wrong. Full stop.

    Most humiliating was yesterday's story that David Davis is "throwing his cloak of protection" around Green.

    I know DD has said he will retire post Brexit, but once a politician starts showing a willingness and ability to protect his own that's a very interesting development
    Old resignation on principal habits clearly die hard.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 17,801
    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    I don’t know the ins and outs of this story, I haven’t followed it; but on a practical, political level Green is surely diminished and, therefore, finished - whether he’s sacked or not. If that’s down to leaking by the police, then that is wrong. Full stop.

    Most humiliating was yesterday's story that David Davis is "throwing his cloak of protection" around Green.

    I know DD has said he will retire post Brexit, but once a politician starts showing a willingness and ability to protect his own that's a very interesting development
    Old resignation on principal habits clearly die hard.
    That wasn't the story

    It was Davis saying he'd bring the government down if May sacked Green.

    That's the emergence of a new faction
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,540
    There is a lot of ‘mystery’ around this. Why has Quick, with what appears to be a very distinguished polce record, and fropm the brief academic record available on Wikipedia, the encouragement of his superiors, apparently decided to target Green. From what I can see there was no particular reason why there paths should have crossed before the fateful complaint in 2008.
    Why has Lewis surfaced now?
    Someone is pulling strings somewhere.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,351
    Has Green committed a crime or has his standards fallen below what we might expect of an MP.?

  • felixfelix Posts: 6,872
    I find it disturbing that it was the BBC which chose to run an interview with exPoliceman acting semi-legallly at best. Rather like their involvement in the Cliff Richard affair it leaves a nasty taste.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,540
    felix said:

    I find it disturbing that it was the BBC which chose to run an interview with exPoliceman acting semi-legallly at best. Rather like their involvement in the Cliff Richard affair it leaves a nasty taste.

    +1
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 24,874
    Nigelb said:

    Anderson has been seen off by the Aussies. Next half hour will be critical.

    Putting the other side in and then seeing your bowlers not take any early wickets is not a good sign. We may all end up very glad BT is doing this Ashes series.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 30,411
    Jonathan said:

    Has Green committed a crime or has his standards fallen below what we might expect of an MP.?

    If any crime was committed, it was by the police officer disclosing the information.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 17,801

    There is a lot of ‘mystery’ around this. Why has Quick, with what appears to be a very distinguished polce record, and fropm the brief academic record available on Wikipedia, the encouragement of his superiors, apparently decided to target Green. From what I can see there was no particular reason why there paths should have crossed before the fateful complaint in 2008.
    Why has Lewis surfaced now?
    Someone is pulling strings somewhere.

    Lewis has said he spoke out after talking to Quick
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 25,253
    500 or 600 for Australia in the 1st Innings?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,546
    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    I don’t know the ins and outs of this story, I haven’t followed it; but on a practical, political level Green is surely diminished and, therefore, finished - whether he’s sacked or not. If that’s down to leaking by the police, then that is wrong. Full stop.

    Most humiliating was yesterday's story that David Davis is "throwing his cloak of protection" around Green.

    I know DD has said he will retire post Brexit, but once a politician starts showing a willingness and ability to protect his own that's a very interesting development
    Old resignation on principal habits clearly die hard.
    That wasn't the story

    It was Davis saying he'd bring the government down if May sacked Green.

    That's the emergence of a new faction
    I'm not entirely convinced, but interesting to see what develops.
    This is a pretty trenchant defense of Green (notably published in the Guardian):
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/01/damian-green-vendetta-police
  • AnExileinD4AnExileinD4 Posts: 116
    felix said:

    I find it disturbing that it was the BBC which chose to run an interview with exPoliceman acting semi-legallly at best. Rather like their involvement in the Cliff Richard affair it leaves a nasty taste.

    Which half was legal? Theft or breach of confidentiality?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 30,411
    @Nigelb.... wow, I had forgotten Green had actually been arrested by the police, and without any appropriate warrant to search his office in Parliament.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 27,407
    Good piece. Very disturbing behaviour and no explanation justifying it so far has held up in my view.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 25,253
    edited December 2
    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    I don’t know the ins and outs of this story, I haven’t followed it; but on a practical, political level Green is surely diminished and, therefore, finished - whether he’s sacked or not. If that’s down to leaking by the police, then that is wrong. Full stop.

    Most humiliating was yesterday's story that David Davis is "throwing his cloak of protection" around Green.

    I know DD has said he will retire post Brexit, but once a politician starts showing a willingness and ability to protect his own that's a very interesting development
    Old resignation on principal habits clearly die hard.
    That wasn't the story

    It was Davis saying he'd bring the government down if May sacked Green.

    That's the emergence of a new faction
    I'm not entirely convinced, but interesting to see what develops.
    This is a pretty trenchant defense of Green (notably published in the Guardian):
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/01/damian-green-vendetta-police
    Finally, Lewis changes his position in the course of his BBC interview. He starts off admitting that he can’t say that it was Green who accessed the pornography, before later telling the reporter he was in “no doubt whatsoever”. However, his conclusion drawn from his recollection of the pattern of access to the computer is wholly inconsistent with the normal pattern of an MP’s parliamentary life, particularly if you hold ministerial or shadow ministerial responsibility. We simply do not have time as we move from one meeting to the next to have hours to peruse leisure websites of whatever type. There are days when I do not have time to switch my desktop computer on, and computer access is by mobile devices on the run between competing engagements.

    I have to say when I heard the plod talking about the computer use, I did think that sounds much more like the sort of activity one would see from a researcher / assistant than a member of the shadow cabinet.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,546

    Nigelb said:

    Anderson has been seen off by the Aussies. Next half hour will be critical.

    Putting the other side in and then seeing your bowlers not take any early wickets is not a good sign. We may all end up very glad BT is doing this Ashes series.

    It's looking fairly awful. I was hoping the debutant Overton might sneak a wicket before they worked him out, but they are well set now. Warner looks hungry - and Smith is still to come.

    It's now well over an innings since an English bowler took a wicket....and our spinner is playing injured.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 25,253
    edited December 2
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Anderson has been seen off by the Aussies. Next half hour will be critical.

    Putting the other side in and then seeing your bowlers not take any early wickets is not a good sign. We may all end up very glad BT is doing this Ashes series.

    It's looking fairly awful. I was hoping the debutant Overton might sneak a wicket before they worked him out, but they are well set now. Warner looks hungry - and Smith is still to come.

    It's now well over an innings since an English bowler took a wicket....and our spinner is playing injured.
    I have said this for ages now, England's 4 seam attack which is all right arm, all basically the same pace, if wickets don't fall early, they are always in for a very hard slog.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 25,253
    US Senate passes sweeping tax overhaul bill

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42205181
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,546
    Is the effect of this going to be that it becomes impossible for May to sack Green over the harassment allegations... ?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 15,056
    The Damian Green story leads to the suspicion that neither the police nor the media have any concept of "inadmissable evidence". It is all evidence - however acquired. It is all fair game, to be used to hang a man's reputation by the neck until dead.

    There are so many concerns in this case, starting from a weird political raid on offices in Westminster that should not have happened, simply to root out somebody in the opposition embarrassing the Governing Party. It goes through the subsequent grudge held by a senior member of that raid - for nearly a decade. It covers materials that, by all we can glean broke no law. But they would allegedly lead some police to feel let down that a public official was not holding to the highest possible decency requirements. An elected official. Who, despite best efforts to end their career, became a member of the Government. Well, that won't do. Won't do at all. We must take steps....

    ...to drag up the matter again with the media. When a media campaign which had suggested there were dozens of sexual predator MPs who were going to have to resign their seats looked greatly overblown and ran out of steam. But...but...but PORN! On a computer! In Westminster!

    And it leads us right up to yesterday's grotesque parody of investigative journalism on 5Live, when somebody is asked questions live on air to help to end Green's career. Questions which, under any form of natural justice, should have been restricted to being asked by a criminal barrister in a court of law - and with the defendant's criminal barrister having a right to put a raft of issues raised through rigorous cross-examination.

    If any member of the media had had to endure what green has endured, they would have had the benefit of a Panorama Special, to show how wretched the system was. But just imagine if Plod turned up at the Panorama offices because they had been doing an investigation that embarrassed the Government, took away their computers and found porn on them..... oh the outrage! I mean, we pay their wages through the tax of the Licence Fee. So all of it is admissable, Sir....
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,540
    Charles said:

    There is a lot of ‘mystery’ around this. Why has Quick, with what appears to be a very distinguished polce record, and fropm the brief academic record available on Wikipedia, the encouragement of his superiors, apparently decided to target Green. From what I can see there was no particular reason why there paths should have crossed before the fateful complaint in 2008.
    Why has Lewis surfaced now?
    Someone is pulling strings somewhere.

    Lewis has said he spoke out after talking to Quick
    So, why has Quick got it in for Green? Surely he doesn’t need the money that the Press would pay. He has, I would think, his pension, plus he’s got a job, and his wife has a reasonable, I believe, business.
  • felixfelix Posts: 6,872

    felix said:

    I find it disturbing that it was the BBC which chose to run an interview with exPoliceman acting semi-legallly at best. Rather like their involvement in the Cliff Richard affair it leaves a nasty taste.

    Which half was legal? Theft or breach of confidentiality?
    Fair point - I'm no lawyer.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 30,411

    Charles said:

    There is a lot of ‘mystery’ around this. Why has Quick, with what appears to be a very distinguished polce record, and fropm the brief academic record available on Wikipedia, the encouragement of his superiors, apparently decided to target Green. From what I can see there was no particular reason why there paths should have crossed before the fateful complaint in 2008.
    Why has Lewis surfaced now?
    Someone is pulling strings somewhere.

    Lewis has said he spoke out after talking to Quick
    So, why has Quick got it in for Green? Surely he doesn’t need the money that the Press would pay. He has, I would think, his pension, plus he’s got a job, and his wife has a reasonable, I believe, business.
    Didn't Quick have to resign after the botched investigation in 2008?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 25,253
    edited December 2
    WIIIIICCCKKKKKEETTTTTTTTTTTTT says Sir Geoffrey.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 17,801

    Charles said:

    There is a lot of ‘mystery’ around this. Why has Quick, with what appears to be a very distinguished polce record, and fropm the brief academic record available on Wikipedia, the encouragement of his superiors, apparently decided to target Green. From what I can see there was no particular reason why there paths should have crossed before the fateful complaint in 2008.
    Why has Lewis surfaced now?
    Someone is pulling strings somewhere.

    Lewis has said he spoke out after talking to Quick
    So, why has Quick got it in for Green? Surely he doesn’t need the money that the Press would pay. He has, I would think, his pension, plus he’s got a job, and his wife has a reasonable, I believe, business.
    I forget the details but I believe he was humiliated by Green suing him (or the Met) in 2006 and he was officially reprimanded as a result.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 17,801
    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    There is a lot of ‘mystery’ around this. Why has Quick, with what appears to be a very distinguished polce record, and fropm the brief academic record available on Wikipedia, the encouragement of his superiors, apparently decided to target Green. From what I can see there was no particular reason why there paths should have crossed before the fateful complaint in 2008.
    Why has Lewis surfaced now?
    Someone is pulling strings somewhere.

    Lewis has said he spoke out after talking to Quick
    So, why has Quick got it in for Green? Surely he doesn’t need the money that the Press would pay. He has, I would think, his pension, plus he’s got a job, and his wife has a reasonable, I believe, business.
    Didn't Quick have to resign after the botched investigation in 2008?
    I think it wasn't until 2013 when he disclosed anti-terror strategy while walking up Downing Street ... but found he was given no political cover for which he blamed the 2008 issue
  • The accusation seems to be that Green is a lying wanker.

    I don't get the shock factor that those pushing this "revelation" think it is.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,540
    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    There is a lot of ‘mystery’ around this. Why has Quick, with what appears to be a very distinguished polce record, and fropm the brief academic record available on Wikipedia, the encouragement of his superiors, apparently decided to target Green. From what I can see there was no particular reason why there paths should have crossed before the fateful complaint in 2008.
    Why has Lewis surfaced now?
    Someone is pulling strings somewhere.

    Lewis has said he spoke out after talking to Quick
    So, why has Quick got it in for Green? Surely he doesn’t need the money that the Press would pay. He has, I would think, his pension, plus he’s got a job, and his wife has a reasonable, I believe, business.
    Didn't Quick have to resign after the botched investigation in 2008?
    Quick resigned because he was carrying secret documents in a way which meant they could be photographed with a long range lens. The documents related toi a planned anti-terror raid in Lancashire (see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7991307.stm)
    It was a while after the ‘Green Affair” and from the BBC report doesn’t sound as thoiugh there was any connection in people’s minds.
  • felixfelix Posts: 6,872
    Both Sky and bbc presenters yesterday were dire in their efforts to push the morality angle. Life for the average Jo gets increasingly difficult in the age of the moral backlash.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,485
    edited December 2
    We are in a climate where putting your arm around someone's shoulder twenty years ago or asking someone out for a drink with a twinkle in your eye is now so heinous an offense that I believe the policemen actually believed exposing Damien Green was a public service.

    Until we reset our values and stop this guilty until proved innoceent in anything relating to inter personal relationships episodes like Damien Green will happen repeatedly.

    ....Or perhaps this'll be the turning point we desperately need
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,540
    Warner’s gone! Caught behind off Woakes.
  • felixfelix Posts: 6,872
    Roger said:

    We are in a climate where putting your arm around someone's shoulder twenty years ago or asking someone out for a drink with a twinkle in your eye is now so heinous an offense that I believe the policemen actually believed exposing Damien Green was a public service.

    Until we reset our values and stop this guilty until proved innoceent in anything relating to inter personal relationships episodes like Damien Green will happen repeatedly. Or perhaps this'll be the turning point we desperately need

    +1
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 25,253

    Warner’s gone! Caught behind off Woakes.

    Its a good job the new batsman in looks totally shit....but looks can be deceiving.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,540
    Roger said:

    We are in a climate where putting your arm around someone's shoulder twenty years ago or asking someone out for a drink with a twinkle in your eye is now so heinous an offense that I believe the policemen actually believed exposing Damien Green was a public service.

    Until we reset our values and stop this guilty until proved innoceent in anything relating to inter personal relationships episodes like Damien Green will happen repeatedly. Or perhaps this'll be the turning point we desperately need

    Makes one glad one isn’t in the public eye, doesn’t it.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,485

    Roger said:

    We are in a climate where putting your arm around someone's shoulder twenty years ago or asking someone out for a drink with a twinkle in your eye is now so heinous an offense that I believe the policemen actually believed exposing Damien Green was a public service.

    Until we reset our values and stop this guilty until proved innoceent in anything relating to inter personal relationships episodes like Damien Green will happen repeatedly. Or perhaps this'll be the turning point we desperately need

    Makes one glad one isn’t in the public eye, doesn’t it.
    Yes it does. I know one or two who have been caught up in this madness not least DLT and the injustice of it is maddening.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 14,976
    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    I don’t know the ins and outs of this story, I haven’t followed it; but on a practical, political level Green is surely diminished and, therefore, finished - whether he’s sacked or not. If that’s down to leaking by the police, then that is wrong. Full stop.

    Most humiliating was yesterday's story that David Davis is "throwing his cloak of protection" around Green.

    I know DD has said he will retire post Brexit, but once a politician starts showing a willingness and ability to protect his own that's a very interesting development
    Old resignation on principal habits clearly die hard.
    That wasn't the story

    It was Davis saying he'd bring the government down if May sacked Green.

    That's the emergence of a new faction
    I'm not entirely convinced, but interesting to see what develops.
    This is a pretty trenchant defense of Green (notably published in the Guardian):
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/01/damian-green-vendetta-police
    Whatever one may think of their editorial stance, the Guardian have always been tenacious upholders of the standards and ethics of journalism. That they can see a politically motivated vendetta doesn’t speak well of the two policemen involved here.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,540
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    We are in a climate where putting your arm around someone's shoulder twenty years ago or asking someone out for a drink with a twinkle in your eye is now so heinous an offense that I believe the policemen actually believed exposing Damien Green was a public service.

    Until we reset our values and stop this guilty until proved innoceent in anything relating to inter personal relationships episodes like Damien Green will happen repeatedly. Or perhaps this'll be the turning point we desperately need

    Makes one glad one isn’t in the public eye, doesn’t it.
    Yes it does. I know one or two who have been caught up in this madness not least DLT and the injustice of it is maddening.
    Thinking back to 40+ years ago ........
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 14,976
    edited December 2
    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    There is a lot of ‘mystery’ around this. Why has Quick, with what appears to be a very distinguished polce record, and fropm the brief academic record available on Wikipedia, the encouragement of his superiors, apparently decided to target Green. From what I can see there was no particular reason why there paths should have crossed before the fateful complaint in 2008.
    Why has Lewis surfaced now?
    Someone is pulling strings somewhere.

    Lewis has said he spoke out after talking to Quick
    So, why has Quick got it in for Green? Surely he doesn’t need the money that the Press would pay. He has, I would think, his pension, plus he’s got a job, and his wife has a reasonable, I believe, business.
    Didn't Quick have to resign after the botched investigation in 2008?
    I think it wasn't until 2013 when he disclosed anti-terror strategy while walking up Downing Street ... but found he was given no political cover for which he blamed the 2008 issue
    And surely everyone ever sent to Downing St. for a meeting knows about the photographers with 400mm lenses standing a dozen metres away across the road? From memory there’s been at least half a dozen people fired for showing their papers over the years.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 14,976

    US Senate passes sweeping tax overhaul bill

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42205181

    They finally killed Obamacare!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 39,452
    Good morning, everyone.

    Spot on, Mr. Herdson.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 9,623



    I have to say when I heard the plod talking about the computer use, I did think that sounds much more like the sort of activity one would see from a researcher / assistant than a member of the shadow cabinet.

    MPs vary enormously in how they tackle the jobs, and I'd think shadow ministers do too. I spent maybe 50% of my time on my computer,and certainly accessed leisure sites (no, not porn) from time to time to avoid going bonkers. I was an infrequent attender at all-party group, lobbying dinners, etc., and spent nearly no time socialising. Other MPs had different patterns - might be better or worse. I don't think any particular conclusions can be drawn from it.

    I share some of the doubts about the behaviour of the police - in particular retaining the notes after leaving the Force and the readiness to go public. At the moment I'm not sure about the facts, and think that the Cabinet Office should be left to conclude their investigation without pressure from the public or others. If they found that the allegations were true, I do think it's a resignable matter, not so much because of the porn but because of the virulent attack on Quick and the flat denial. I don't agree that lying about it via a personal attack would have been justified. But that's just my personal view - not sure the public, who barely know who any of these people are, feel strongly one way or the other.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,351
    Plebgate, how did that work out in the end?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 14,976
    edited December 2
    Nigelb said:

    Is the effect of this going to be that it becomes impossible for May to sack Green over the harassment allegations... ?

    For making a clumsy pass at a middle-aged political editor at a drunken party a decade and a half ago? He’s not Harvey Weinstein or Kevin Spacey.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 39,452
    Mr. Jonathan, Flavius Phocas ended up as emperor. Just because a thing happens doesn't mean it's good or just.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 17,801
    Sandpit said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    There is a lot of ‘mystery’ around this. Why has Quick, with what appears to be a very distinguished polce record, and fropm the brief academic record available on Wikipedia, the encouragement of his superiors, apparently decided to target Green. From what I can see there was no particular reason why there paths should have crossed before the fateful complaint in 2008.
    Why has Lewis surfaced now?
    Someone is pulling strings somewhere.

    Lewis has said he spoke out after talking to Quick
    So, why has Quick got it in for Green? Surely he doesn’t need the money that the Press would pay. He has, I would think, his pension, plus he’s got a job, and his wife has a reasonable, I believe, business.
    Didn't Quick have to resign after the botched investigation in 2008?
    I think it wasn't until 2013 when he disclosed anti-terror strategy while walking up Downing Street ... but found he was given no political cover for which he blamed the 2008 issue
    And surely everyone ever sent to Downing St. for a meeting knows about the photographers with 400mm lenses standing a dozen metres away across the road? From memory there’s been at least half a dozen people fired for showing their papers over the years.
    Yes - so either incompetent or deliberate leaking. Both sackable offences for someone in that role.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 39,452
    F1: sounds like Kubica may not be making a comeback after all:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/42199674

    Still possible, but not the slam dunk Williams was hoping for.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 27,407
    This story has made me so angry that we could have footage of Green wanking alone at his desk and I’d stil say the police behaviour has not been warranted. He may well have behaved poorly, and there might have been appropriate actions to be taken, but this clear vendetta against him has involved some shady behaviour which, it is clear, those doing it hope to get away with by claiming public interest should he have to resign for something unrelated. Despicable. Good riddance to coppers like that, arrogant stains on the service.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,049
    Jonathan said:

    Has Green committed a crime or has his standards fallen below what we might expect of an MP.?

    We want our MPs to be monks and saints, but also to live in the real world.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 27,407
    Jonathan said:

    Plebgate, how did that work out in the end?

    It was judged Mitchell probably did say pleb, but a police officer lied about being a public witness and the police federation lied about what he’d said to them, proven by audio recording, in an attempt to get him fired. As with Green, the actual offence has been superseded by the disgraceful actions of serving and ex officers breaching rules to seek the head of a minister. That should not stand.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,049
    Roger said:

    We are in a climate where putting your arm around someone's shoulder twenty years ago or asking someone out for a drink with a twinkle in your eye is now so heinous an offense that I believe the policemen actually believed exposing Damien Green was a public service.

    Until we reset our values and stop this guilty until proved innoceent in anything relating to inter personal relationships episodes like Damien Green will happen repeatedly.

    ....Or perhaps this'll be the turning point we desperately need

    Wow. I actually agree with you.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,351

    Jonathan said:

    Has Green committed a crime or has his standards fallen below what we might expect of an MP.?

    We want our MPs to be monks and saints, but also to live in the real world.
    The real world? Porn on a work computer? No.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,049
    Ally_B said:

    I concur with your view Nigelb. As David says, under these circumstances it isn't a sackable offence. Nor, in this case, do I think it appropriate for ex-Policemen to comment on what was found at that time. It does have the feel of Plebgate to it. Green shouldn't have done what is alleged on a work's computer but I'm afraid it reinforces my opinion of most politicians as individuals who are out of touch with the real world and I'll leave it at that.

    In the real world, virtually everyone lies about sex and virtually everyone watches porn. And I wouldn't believe those that said they didn't.

    Next.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,546

    The accusation seems to be that Green is a lying wanker.

    I don't get the shock factor that those pushing this "revelation" think it is.

    If that were sufficient reason to sack MPs.....
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 14,976
    edited December 2

    F1: sounds like Kubica may not be making a comeback after all:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/42199674

    Still possible, but not the slam dunk Williams was hoping for.

    Williams are in a bit of a pickle when it comes to their driver lineup for next season.
    Massa gave them an extra year, is past his best and was happy to retire.
    Stroll brings something like £20m a year with him, so is an automatic choice.
    Martini also bring £20m or thereabouts, and require a driver over 25 due to drink industry rules on using young people to promote their products.
    Stroll is only 19, and other hopefuls Sergei Serotkin and Daniil Kvyat are also too young.
    Robert Kubica is old enough, and would be a fairytale comeback but there’s doubts about his physical stamina over a season and a contractual problem to sort out over a seven-figure insurance payout he got after his injury (on the basis that he was permenantly unable to be an F1 driver).
    That leaves my favourite for the job. Paul DiResta, current test driver who knows the team well, and is old enough and fit enough.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 27,407
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Has Green committed a crime or has his standards fallen below what we might expect of an MP.?

    We want our MPs to be monks and saints, but also to live in the real world.
    The real world? Porn on a work computer? No.
    It’s not for serving or ex police to resolve that is the key. Green actling like a cock or on his cock at work is not for them to police. If he’s done it it should have been looked into at the time and his constituents could make a judgement if they still wanted this guy to serve them. Taking police notes and settling scores to punish him is not on. It is not their job, and that people should wank at work, or misuse an official laptop, does not change that.

    Anger at them does not mean what he did is right, if it’s true, but it is irrelevant to justifying their actions.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 39,452
    Mr. Royale, I also agree entirely with Mr. Roger. Huzzah for blissful harmony returning to PB! :D
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,546
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    I don’t know the ins and outs of this story, I haven’t followed it; but on a practical, political level Green is surely diminished and, therefore, finished - whether he’s sacked or not. If that’s down to leaking by the police, then that is wrong. Full stop.

    Most humiliating was yesterday's story that David Davis is "throwing his cloak of protection" around Green.

    I know DD has said he will retire post Brexit, but once a politician starts showing a willingness and ability to protect his own that's a very interesting development
    Old resignation on principal habits clearly die hard.
    That wasn't the story

    It was Davis saying he'd bring the government down if May sacked Green.

    That's the emergence of a new faction
    I'm not entirely convinced, but interesting to see what develops.
    This is a pretty trenchant defense of Green (notably published in the Guardian):
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/01/damian-green-vendetta-police
    Whatever one may think of their editorial stance, the Guardian have always been tenacious upholders of the standards and ethics of journalism. That they can see a politically motivated vendetta doesn’t speak well of the two policemen involved here.
    Yes, that was my point.
    The Guardian (whatever one might think of the mildly ridiculous Toynbee et al) is an excellent publication. Granted it's a comment piece by a Tory MP, but notable that they published it.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 39,452
    edited December 2
    Mr. Sandpit, yeah, and I think he's a bit underrated as well. Hmm. Wonder if there's a market on it... to the betmobile!

    Edited extra bit: not that I can see, alas.

    Had reasonable success with such markets in the past but they don't go up very often.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,544
    edited December 2
    https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/energy/2017/12/spark-energy-customers-chased-for-payment-by-debt-collectors-before-bills-are-due

    Time to nationalise the energy companies. Put an end to this bullsh*t.

    That's what 77% of the public wants.

    Come on tories. Do it.

    Take back control.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,546
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Is the effect of this going to be that it becomes impossible for May to sack Green over the harassment allegations... ?

    For making a clumsy pass at a middle-aged political editor at a drunken party a decade and a half ago? He’s not Harvey Weinstein or Kevin Spacey.
    I make no judgment on the allegations (or indeed May's prudery or otherwise) - and that he is not Weinstein is neither here nor there - I was merely remarking that this affair might tip the balance in his favour, should that be necessary.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 14,976
    edited December 2

    Mr. Sandpit, yeah, and I think he's a bit underrated as well. Hmm. Wonder if there's a market on it... to the betmobile!

    Edited extra bit: not that I can see, alas.

    Had reasonable success with such markets in the past but they don't go up very often.

    I couldn’t see any markets either. We both made money on Bottas to Mercedes last year IIRC, and you made a good longtermer on him being in the top 3 in 2017 before he was announced.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 14,976
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Is the effect of this going to be that it becomes impossible for May to sack Green over the harassment allegations... ?

    For making a clumsy pass at a middle-aged political editor at a drunken party a decade and a half ago? He’s not Harvey Weinstein or Kevin Spacey.
    I make no judgment on the allegations (or indeed May's prudery or otherwise) - and that he is not Weinstein is neither here nor there - I was merely remarking that this affair might tip the balance in his favour, should that be necessary.
    Agreed. There would have to be a very serious separate allegation against him for him to go now. The behaviour of the police officers has strengthened his position in the cabinet.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 39,452
    Mr. Sandpit, actually, I missed the boat on Bottas going to Mercedes (bit stupid of me) but did, as you indicate, get something for him being top 3. The odds of 26 were just stupid given he was something like 2-3 to go to Mercedes.

    His odds of 16 or so remain oddly long. Hamilton's favourite to win the title, so his team mate being top 3, whilst not certain, is highly probable. The last time there was a major disparity, I think, between title-winner and team mate was Hamilton and Kovalainen[sp], and Bottas is a better driver than his countryman.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 14,976
    Pong said:

    https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/energy/2017/12/spark-energy-customers-chased-for-payment-by-debt-collectors-before-bills-are-due

    Time to nationalise the energy companies. Put an end to this bullsh*t.

    That's what 77% of the public wants.

    Come on tories. Do it.

    Take back control.

    Better regulation of debt collection would be a better starting point.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 25,253
    edited December 2
    Jonathan said:

    Plebgate, how did that work out in the end?

    Police officers went to prison....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 25,253
    That dropped catch in the cricket is going to be costly.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,386

    Jonathan said:

    Plebgate, how did that work out in the end?

    Police officers went to prison....
    Not enough of them.

    Serving officers lying about a meeting with an MP and only being caught out because he recorded the meeting should have resulted in dismissals and prosecutions. That they did not is equally as bad as the original crime.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,351
    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Has Green committed a crime or has his standards fallen below what we might expect of an MP.?

    We want our MPs to be monks and saints, but also to live in the real world.
    The real world? Porn on a work computer? No.
    It’s not for serving or ex police to resolve that is the key. Green actling like a cock or on his cock at work is not for them to police. If he’s done it it should have been looked into at the time and his constituents could make a judgement if they still wanted this guy to serve them. Taking police notes and settling scores to punish him is not on. It is not their job, and that people should wank at work, or misuse an official laptop, does not change that.

    Anger at them does not mean what he did is right, if it’s true, but it is irrelevant to justifying their actions.
    The idea that we know the full story is absurd. It gets messy when two part of establishment tear into one another. The best thing to do is watch, learn and try to fathom out the murky backstory.

    No white hats and black hats here.
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,152

    Jonathan said:

    Plebgate, how did that work out in the end?

    Police officers went to prison....
    Not enough of them.

    Serving officers lying about a meeting with an MP and only being caught out because he recorded the meeting should have resulted in dismissals and prosecutions. That they did not is equally as bad as the original crime.
    Equally as bad as maybe calling someone a pleb?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 27,407
    Jonathan said:

    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Has Green committed a crime or has his standards fallen below what we might expect of an MP.?

    We want our MPs to be monks and saints, but also to live in the real world.
    The real world? Porn on a work computer? No.
    It’s not for serving or ex police to resolve that is the key. Green actling like a cock or on his cock at work is not for them to police. If he’s done it it should have been looked into at the time and his constituents could make a judgement if they still wanted this guy to serve them. Taking police notes and settling scores to punish him is not on. It is not their job, and that people should wank at work, or misuse an official laptop, does not change that.

    Anger at them does not mean what he did is right, if it’s true, but it is irrelevant to justifying their actions.
    The idea that we know the full story is absurd. It gets messy when two part of establishment tear into one another. The best thing to do is watch, learn and try to fathom out the murky backstory.

    No white hats and black hats here.
    We may not know the whole story yet (indeed, we still don’t know for certain what Green himself did or did not do), but that does not mean we do not know enough to know some ill behaviour has occured. Possibly by Green in terms of misusing resources. But certainly by these officers - the very fact of their disclosures confirms that ill behaviour, we don’t need to know the whole story to know that.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 25,253
    edited December 2

    Jonathan said:

    Plebgate, how did that work out in the end?

    Police officers went to prison....
    Not enough of them.

    Serving officers lying about a meeting with an MP and only being caught out because he recorded the meeting should have resulted in dismissals and prosecutions. That they did not is equally as bad as the original crime.
    That was absolutely shocking. A politician being a rude arsehole was totally insignificant in comparison.

    If they are willing to fit up a powerful person over something so trivial, mind boggles when it comes to random members of the public. Back to the days of the west midlands serious crime squad.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 27,407

    Jonathan said:

    Plebgate, how did that work out in the end?

    Police officers went to prison....
    Not enough of them.

    Serving officers lying about a meeting with an MP and only being caught out because he recorded the meeting should have resulted in dismissals and prosecutions. That they did not is equally as bad as the original crime.
    That truly was terrible. Even when confronted with the evidence of their lie, they no doubt think they did the right thing because they got their man (I recall the circumstances quite clearly in that they said he claimed he did not say pleb but wouldn’t explain what he did say, and he had to resign, when the recording provided he had provided them an explanation of what, in his recollection, he had said - that it was ruled in the end probable he had said pleb eventhough he denied it, in no way excuses a bald faced lie as part of a campaign to get him sacked. Poor behaviour is not made better by others acting even worse)
This discussion has been closed.