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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Bad news for Damian Green, the police have a 110% lead on net

SystemSystem Posts: 3,967
edited December 2 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Bad news for Damian Green, the police have a 110% lead on net trust ratings over government ministers

Movers in @IpsosMORI veracity index since 1983: Clergy down, but civil servants, union officials, professors, police, business leaders and journalists all up https://t.co/eo2rUPk1lA pic.twitter.com/Ffa3WhMgNk

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Comments

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 12,009
    Despite widespread assumptions of modern day cynicism amongst the public it seems we've overall become more willing to trust almost everyone to tell the truth, not less.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,386

    Despite widespread assumptions of modern day cynicism amongst the public it seems we've overall become more willing to trust almost everyone to tell the truth, not less.

    In spite of all the evidence to the contrary.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 7,729
    Did we really just get through a whole thread without mentioning the Unmentionable Subject?

    It was a far more interesting thread for it as well, even if it did involve the obligatory 'politicians are tossers' posts.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 4,979
    I cannot imagine why trust in the clergy should have fallen.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 7,729
    It is of course not surprising that trust in politicians is unaffected by this scandal. After all, it cannot slip below rock bottom.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 7,340
    Civil Servants more trusted than lawyers.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 2,899
    edited December 2
    What's with all this macho-man stuff from DD about Green's sacking?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42197309

    Surely DD doesn't give a fig about Green per se. Presumably this is all about ingratiating himself with Theresa and re-establishing his tough-guy image after his humiliation at the hands of Boris and Gove.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,386
    ydoethur said:

    Did we really just get through a whole thread without mentioning the Unmentionable Subject?

    It was a far more interesting thread for it as well, even if it did involve the obligatory 'politicians are tossers' posts.

    I hadn't noticed until you mentioned it but you are right that is quite an achievement.

    On the relative tosser scale it really does take an extra ordinary effort from members of an organisation to make them appear more of a bunch of tossers than the politicians. If you are making MPs or Ministers look good you really must be doing something seriously wrong.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 6,104


    Presumably John Rentoul and his friend don’t realise that post-Iraq world, his idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility, which is a reason why we have Corbynism in the first place. Blair is one of the most reviled politicians in this country. IIRC even when Corbyn was at his most unpopular he was still more popular than Blair. Yet he really thinks the problem was only Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband.
  • stevefstevef Posts: 449
    Well of course politicians are the least trusted people in Britain and everywhere else. They always have been, and always will be -and the police will be trusted more. But how on earth is that bad news for Damien Green? You may as well say that the police are more trusted than estate agents, and therefore any estate agent who is victimised by a police officer should instantly resign from his job go to jail and not collect £200

    Damien Green has not committed a crime -and the ONLY reason that this police officer could possibly have released this information is political.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 25,390
    Are political bloggers trusted or distrusted?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 8,896
    Despite Brexit?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 4,979



    Presumably John Rentoul and his friend don’t realise that post-Iraq world, his idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility, which is a reason why we have Corbynism in the first place. Blair is one of the most reviled politicians in this country. IIRC even when Corbyn was at his most unpopular he was still more popular than Blair. Yet he really thinks the problem was only Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband.

    So we must now be an incredible alternative.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 20,315
    stevef said:

    Damien Green has not committed a crime

    I bet he has. I don't know it's nature, but it's almost impossible to go through life without a couple of minor infractions.
  • felixfelix Posts: 6,872

    Are political bloggers trusted or distrusted?

    Lol. QTWTAIN
  • felixfelix Posts: 6,872



    Presumably John Rentoul and his friend don’t realise that post-Iraq world, his idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility, which is a reason why we have Corbynism in the first place. Blair is one of the most reviled politicians in this country. IIRC even when Corbyn was at his most unpopular he was still more popular than Blair. Yet he really thinks the problem was only Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband.

    So we must now be an incredible alternative.
    Yup - the fantasy party is now HMO
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 36,073



    Presumably John Rentoul and his friend don’t realise that post-Iraq world, his idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility, which is a reason why we have Corbynism in the first place. Blair is one of the most reviled politicians in this country. IIRC even when Corbyn was at his most unpopular he was still more popular than Blair. Yet he really thinks the problem was only Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband.

    This would be the same Blair who is the only Labour leader ever to have won 3 successive general elections, 2 of which by landslides? This would also be the same Corbyn who lost the 2017 general election even if he did a bit better than he was expected to?
  • stevefstevef Posts: 449
    HYUFD said:



    Presumably John Rentoul and his friend don’t realise that post-Iraq world, his idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility, which is a reason why we have Corbynism in the first place. Blair is one of the most reviled politicians in this country. IIRC even when Corbyn was at his most unpopular he was still more popular than Blair. Yet he really thinks the problem was only Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband.

    This would be the same Blair who is the only Labour leader ever to have won 3 successive general elections, 2 of which by landslides? This would also be the same Corbyn who lost the 2017 general election even if he did a bit better than he was expected to?
    Corbyn is going to go down in history as the worst Labour leader of all time-and this will be true, even in the unlikely event of him forming a minority government after the next election. He is so extreme, and so inept and so incompetent and so ideologically inflexible that a few months of him would be quite enough to send the voters fleeing to the Tories for a generation.
  • stevefstevef Posts: 449
    rcs1000 said:

    stevef said:

    Damien Green has not committed a crime

    I bet he has. I don't know it's nature, but it's almost impossible to go through life without a couple of minor infractions.
    Thats a silly post. But ok, he has not committed a crime by having legal porn on his computer.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 6,104
    HYUFD said:



    Presumably John Rentoul and his friend don’t realise that post-Iraq world, his idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility, which is a reason why we have Corbynism in the first place. Blair is one of the most reviled politicians in this country. IIRC even when Corbyn was at his most unpopular he was still more popular than Blair. Yet he really thinks the problem was only Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband.

    This would be the same Blair who is the only Labour leader ever to have won 3 successive general elections, 2 of which by landslides? This would also be the same Corbyn who lost the 2017 general election even if he did a bit better than he was expected to?
    I said in a ‘post-Iraq’ world Rentoul’s idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility. I didn’t say that it was never once credible among the electorate (thus the ‘post-Iraq’ world part’). The whole thing of the idea gradually becoming less credibile implies that it once had credibility to begin with. But Blair’s three GE wins don’t change the current political climate: while in 1997, 2001, and in 2005 people may have wanted neo-liberal centrism they don’t now. That’s my point. Rentoul is acting as if a New Labour platform would win today because it was successful in the past. In doing so, he ignores how the political climate has changed and why.

    I also didn’t say Corbynism was particularly credible, merely that attitudes like Rentoul’s has partly led to the emergence of Corbynism.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 10,290

    What's with all this macho-man stuff from DD about Green's sacking?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42197309

    Surely DD doesn't give a fig about Green per se. Presumably this is all about ingratiating himself with Theresa and re-establishing his tough-guy image after his humiliation at the hands of Boris and Gove.

    Or maybe he knows Green is finished and he himself is looking for an excuse to bail out before the Brexit sh*t hits the fan? ;)
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 6,104



    Presumably John Rentoul and his friend don’t realise that post-Iraq world, his idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility, which is a reason why we have Corbynism in the first place. Blair is one of the most reviled politicians in this country. IIRC even when Corbyn was at his most unpopular he was still more popular than Blair. Yet he really thinks the problem was only Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband.

    So we must now be an incredible alternative.
    Well, Corbyn’s hardcore fans probably think that. You must have enjoyed Yanis Varoufakis on QT btw!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 36,073
    GIN1138 said:

    What's with all this macho-man stuff from DD about Green's sacking?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42197309

    Surely DD doesn't give a fig about Green per se. Presumably this is all about ingratiating himself with Theresa and re-establishing his tough-guy image after his humiliation at the hands of Boris and Gove.

    Or maybe he knows Green is finished and he himself is looking for an excuse to bail out before the Brexit sh*t hits the fan? ;)
    It won't, we are moving towards a FTA
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 2,342
    stevef said:

    Well of course politicians are the least trusted people in Britain and everywhere else. They always have been, and always will be -and the police will be trusted more. But how on earth is that bad news for Damien Green? You may as well say that the police are more trusted than estate agents, and therefore any estate agent who is victimised by a police officer should instantly resign from his job go to jail and not collect £200

    Damien Green has not committed a crime -and the ONLY reason that this police officer could possibly have released this information is political.

    Seems more personal to me.Once you start throwing accusations about people usually react
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 36,073
    stevef said:

    HYUFD said:



    Presumably John Rentoul and his friend don’t realise that post-Iraq world, his idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility, which is a reason why we have Corbynism in the first place. Blair is one of the most reviled politicians in this country. IIRC even when Corbyn was at his most unpopular he was still more popular than Blair. Yet he really thinks the problem was only Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband.

    This would be the same Blair who is the only Labour leader ever to have won 3 successive general elections, 2 of which by landslides? This would also be the same Corbyn who lost the 2017 general election even if he did a bit better than he was expected to?
    Corbyn is going to go down in history as the worst Labour leader of all time-and this will be true, even in the unlikely event of him forming a minority government after the next election. He is so extreme, and so inept and so incompetent and so ideologically inflexible that a few months of him would be quite enough to send the voters fleeing to the Tories for a generation.
    To be fair to Corbyn he is a better Labour leader than Ed Miliband, Brown, Foot, Callaghan and Gaitskill and most of the pre WW2 leaders were but he is a worse leader thsn Attlee, Wilson, Blair and maybe even Kinnock were.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 36,073
    edited December 2

    HYUFD said:



    Presumably John Rentoul and his friend don’t realise that post-Iraq world, his idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility, which is a reason why we have Corbynism in the first place. Blair is one of the most reviled politicians in this country. IIRC even when Corbyn was at his most unpopular he was still more popular than Blair. Yet he really thinks the problem was only Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband.

    This would be the same Blair who is the only Labour leader ever to have won 3 successive general elections, 2 of which by landslides? This would also be the same Corbyn who lost the 2017 general election even if he did a bit better than he was expected to?
    I said in a ‘post-Iraq’ world Rentoul’s idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility. I didn’t say that it was never once credible among the electorate (thus the ‘post-Iraq’ world part’). The whole thing of the idea gradually becoming less credibile implies that it once had credibility to begin with. But Blair’s three GE wins don’t change the current political climate: while in 1997, 2001, and in 2005 people may have wanted neo-liberal centrism they don’t now. That’s my point. Rentoul is acting as if a New Labour platform would win today because it was successful in the past. In doing so, he ignores how the political climate has changed and why.

    I also didn’t say Corbynism was particularly credible, merely that attitudes like Rentoul’s has partly led to the emergence of Corbynism.
    Blair still won in 2005 even post Iraq though he lost seats and Iraq is now a democracy largely free of ISIS. Though I do agree in a post crash, austerity climate Corbyn's mood more suits the time.
  • tysontyson Posts: 4,106
    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    HYUFD said:



    Presumably John Rentoul and his friend don’t realise that post-Iraq world, his idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility, which is a reason why we have Corbynism in the first place. Blair is one of the most reviled politicians in this country. IIRC even when Corbyn was at his most unpopular he was still more popular than Blair. Yet he really thinks the problem was only Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband.

    This would be the same Blair who is the only Labour leader ever to have won 3 successive general elections, 2 of which by landslides? This would also be the same Corbyn who lost the 2017 general election even if he did a bit better than he was expected to?
    Corbyn is going to go down in history as the worst Labour leader of all time-and this will be true, even in the unlikely event of him forming a minority government after the next election. He is so extreme, and so inept and so incompetent and so ideologically inflexible that a few months of him would be quite enough to send the voters fleeing to the Tories for a generation.
    To be fair to Corbyn he is a better Labour leader than Ed Miliband, Brown, Foot, Callaghan and Gaitskill and most of the pre WW2 leaders were but he is a worse leader thsn Attlee, Wilson, Blair and maybe even Kinnock were.
    We all remember the EdStone...and for that Miliband junior must rank as the most appalling leader of Labour in memory.

    Callaghan is a bit too young for me, though I did meet him once, and I think he wasn't really given much of a chance to show his true self
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 36,073
    edited December 2
    tyson said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    HYUFD said:



    Presumably John Rentoul and his friend don’t realise that post-Iraq world, his idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility, which is a reason why we have Corbynism in the first place. Blair is one of the most reviled politicians in this country. IIRC even when Corbyn was at his most unpopular he was still more popular than Blair. Yet he really thinks the problem was only Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband.

    This would be the same Blair who is the only Labour leader ever to have won 3 successive general elections, 2 of which by landslides? This would also be the same Corbyn who lost the 2017 general election even if he did a bit better than he was expected to?
    Corbyn is going to go down in history as the worst Labour leader of all time-and this will be true, even in the unlikely event of him forming a minority government after the next election. He is so extreme, and so inept and so incompetent and so ideologically inflexible that a few months of him would be quite enough to send the voters fleeing to the Tories for a generation.
    To be fair to Corbyn he is a better Labour leader than Ed Miliband, Brown, Foot, Callaghan and Gaitskill and most of the pre WW2 leaders were but he is a worse leader thsn Attlee, Wilson, Blair and maybe even Kinnock were.
    We all remember the EdStone...and for that Miliband junior must rank as the most appalling leader of Labour in memory.

    Callaghan is a bit too young for me, though I did meet him once, and I think he wasn't really given much of a chance to show his true self
    In my lifetime I think Foot was worst (though I was too young to really remember him) with Ed Miliband secomd worst.

    Callaghan was unlucky to take over when the unions were really flexing their muscles and to be fair to him he did try and take sensible decisions on the public finances.
  • felixfelix Posts: 6,872

    HYUFD said:



    Presumably John Rentoul and his friend don’t realise that post-Iraq world, his idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility, which is a reason why we have Corbynism in the first place. Blair is one of the most reviled politicians in this country. IIRC even when Corbyn was at his most unpopular he was still more popular than Blair. Yet he really thinks the problem was only Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband.

    This would be the same Blair who is the only Labour leader ever to have won 3 successive general elections, 2 of which by landslides? This would also be the same Corbyn who lost the 2017 general election even if he did a bit better than he was expected to?
    I said in a ‘post-Iraq’ world Rentoul’s idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility. I didn’t say that it was never once credible among the electorate (thus the ‘post-Iraq’ world part’). The whole thing of the idea gradually becoming less credibile implies that it once had credibility to begin with. But Blair’s three GE wins don’t change the current political climate: while in 1997, 2001, and in 2005 people may have wanted neo-liberal centrism they don’t now. That’s my point. Rentoul is acting as if a New Labour platform would win today because it was successful in the past. In doing so, he ignores how the political climate has changed and why.

    I also didn’t say Corbynism was particularly credible, merely that attitudes like Rentoul’s has partly led to the emergence of Corbynism.
    I think a centrist candidate could win again and win big - if Cameron returned tomorrow I expect he'd win a GE. The Corbyn attraction is based on the fantasy that the UK can leave austerity behind by spending money lent by the RoW. This is justified as we are doing it now under May. It ignores the reality that money is only lent when people trust that it will be used responsibly and paid back - and this is where Corbynism hits the hard place. The reality is that very modest growth in wages and living standards is all that can be hoped for for some considerable time.
  • tysontyson Posts: 4,106
    On Green...he should go of his own accord on the basis that he is detracting attention. It's not fair, just our right that he has to walk for something he might have done years ago which was pretty inconsequential at worse but that's the harsh life of politics. The headlines are just too ghastly for him to stay.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,054
    tyson said:

    On Green...he should go of his own accord on the basis that he is detracting attention. It's not fair, just our right that he has to walk for something he might have done years ago which was pretty inconsequential at worse but that's the harsh life of politics. The headlines are just too ghastly for him to stay.


    But if he goes, it will just encourage even more attacks like this.

  • stevefstevef Posts: 449
    felix said:

    HYUFD said:



    Presumably John Rentoul and his friend don’t realise that post-Iraq world, his idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility, which is a reason why we have Corbynism in the first place. Blair is one of the most reviled politicians in this country. IIRC even when Corbyn was at his most unpopular he was still more popular than Blair. Yet he really thinks the problem was only Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband.

    This would be the same Blair who is the only Labour leader ever to have won 3 successive general elections, 2 of which by landslides? This would also be the same Corbyn who lost the 2017 general election even if he did a bit better than he was expected to?
    I said in a ‘post-Iraq’ world Rentoul’s idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility. I didn’t say that it was never once credible among the electorate (thus the ‘post-Iraq’ world part’). The whole thing of the idea gradually becoming less credibile implies that it once had credibility to begin with. But Blair’s three GE wins don’t change the current political climate: while in 1997, 2001, and in 2005 people may have wanted neo-liberal centrism they don’t now. That’s my point. Rentoul is acting as if a New Labour platform would win today because it was successful in the past. In doing so, he ignores how the political climate has changed and why.

    I also didn’t say Corbynism was particularly credible, merely that attitudes like Rentoul’s has partly led to the emergence of Corbynism.
    I think a centrist candidate could win again and win big - if Cameron returned tomorrow I expect he'd win a GE. The Corbyn attraction is based on the fantasy that the UK can leave austerity behind by spending money lent by the RoW. This is justified as we are doing it now under May. It ignores the reality that money is only lent when people trust that it will be used responsibly and paid back - and this is where Corbynism hits the hard place. The reality is that very modest growth in wages and living standards is all that can be hoped for for some considerable time.
    But what came before Blairism which led to Blairism? Four election defeats caused by Corbynism.
  • felixfelix Posts: 6,872
    stevef said:

    felix said:

    HYUFD said:



    Presumably John Rentoul and his friend don’t realise that post-Iraq world, his idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility, which is a reason why we have Corbynism in the first place. Blair is one of the most reviled politicians in this country. IIRC even when Corbyn was at his most unpopular he was still more popular than Blair. Yet he really thinks the problem was only Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband.

    This would be the same Blair who is the only Labour leader ever to have won 3 successive general elections, 2 of which by landslides? This would also be the same Corbyn who lost the 2017 general election even if he did a bit better than he was expected to?
    I said in a ‘post-Iraq’ world Rentoul’s idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility. I didn’t say that it was never once credible among the electorate (thus the ‘post-Iraq’ world part’). The whole thing of the idea gradually becoming less credibile implies that it once had credibility to begin with. But Blair’s three GE wins don’t change the current political climate: while in 1997, 2001, and in 2005 people may have wanted neo-liberal centrism they don’t now. That’s my point. Rentoul is acting as if a New Labour platform would win today because it was successful in the past. In doing so, he ignores how the political climate has changed and why.

    I also didn’t say Corbynism was particularly credible, merely that attitudes like Rentoul’s has partly led to the emergence of Corbynism.
    I think a centrist candidate could win again and win big - if Cameron returned tomorrow I expect he'd win a GE. The Corbyn attraction is based on the fantasy that the UK can leave austerity behind by spending money lent by the RoW. This is justified as we are doing it now under May. It ignores the reality that money is only lent when people trust that it will be used responsibly and paid back - and this is where Corbynism hits the hard place. The reality is that very modest growth in wages and living standards is all that can be hoped for for some considerable time.
    But what came before Blairism which led to Blairism? Four election defeats caused by Corbynism.
    Yes but the fun of history is that it is not an exact reflection of the past even if it seems so the older one gets.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 7,729
    felix said:

    stevef said:

    felix said:

    HYUFD said:



    Presumably John Rentoul and his friend don’t realise that post-Iraq world, his idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility, which is a reason why we have Corbynism in the first place. Blair is one of the most reviled politicians in this country. IIRC even when Corbyn was at his most unpopular he was still more popular than Blair. Yet he really thinks the problem was only Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband.

    This would be the same Blair who is the only Labour leader ever to have won 3 successive general elections, 2 of which by landslides? This would also be the same Corbyn who lost the 2017 general election even if he did a bit better than he was expected to?
    I said in a ‘post-Iraq’ world Rentoul’s idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility. I didn’t say that it was never once credible among the electorate (thus the ‘post-Iraq’ world part’). The whole thing of the idea gradually becoming less credibile implies that it once had credibility to begin with. But Blair’s three GE wins don’t change the current political climate: while in 1997, 2001, and in 2005 people may have wanted neo-liberal centrism they don’t now. That’s my point. Rentoul is acting as if a New Labour platform would win today because it was successful in the past. In doing so, he ignores how the political climate has changed and why.

    I also didn’t say Corbynism was particularly credible, merely that attitudes like Rentoul’s has partly led to the emergence of Corbynism.
    I think a centrist candidate could win again and win big - if Cameron returned tomorrow I expect he'd win a GE. The Corbyn attraction is based on the fantasy that the UK can leave austerity behind by spending money lent by the RoW. This is justified as we are doing it now under May. It ignores the reality that money is only lent when people trust that it will be used responsibly and paid back - and this is where Corbynism hits the hard place. The reality is that very modest growth in wages and living standards is all that can be hoped for for some considerable time.
    But what came before Blairism which led to Blairism? Four election defeats caused by Corbynism.
    Yes but the fun of history is that it is not an exact reflection of the past even if it seems so the older one gets.
    History never repeats itself. Sometimes it rhymes.

    Samuel Langhorne Clemens.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 4,979



    Presumably John Rentoul and his friend don’t realise that post-Iraq world, his idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility, which is a reason why we have Corbynism in the first place. Blair is one of the most reviled politicians in this country. IIRC even when Corbyn was at his most unpopular he was still more popular than Blair. Yet he really thinks the problem was only Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband.

    So we must now be an incredible alternative.
    Well, Corbyn’s hardcore fans probably think that. You must have enjoyed Yanis Varoufakis on QT btw!
    Missed it - I'll have to catch up tomorrow.
  • tysontyson Posts: 4,106

    tyson said:

    On Green...he should go of his own accord on the basis that he is detracting attention. It's not fair, just our right that he has to walk for something he might have done years ago which was pretty inconsequential at worse but that's the harsh life of politics. The headlines are just too ghastly for him to stay.


    But if he goes, it will just encourage even more attacks like this.

    That's the nature off politics. Some allegations you can ride...but some, if they go on too long, too embarrassing, are badly handled, etc.... you have to take one for the good of the team. Green is well and truly in this camp.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 30,411
    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    On Green...he should go of his own accord on the basis that he is detracting attention. It's not fair, just our right that he has to walk for something he might have done years ago which was pretty inconsequential at worse but that's the harsh life of politics. The headlines are just too ghastly for him to stay.


    But if he goes, it will just encourage even more attacks like this.

    That's the nature off politics. Some allegations you can ride...but some, if they go on too long, too embarrassing, are badly handled, etc.... you have to take one for the good of the team. Green is well and truly in this camp.
    The nature of politics is you have to just let the police smear you with information that has no reason to be in the public domain?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 36,073
    stevef said:

    felix said:

    HYUFD said:



    Presumably John Rentoul and his friend don’t realise that post-Iraq world, his idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility, which is a reason why we have Corbynism in the first place. Blair is one of the most reviled politicians in this country. IIRC even when Corbyn was at his most unpopular he was still more popular than Blair. Yet he really thinks the problem was only Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband.

    This would be the same Blair who is the only Labour leader ever to have won 3 successive general elections, 2 of which by landslides? This would also be the same Corbyn who lost the 2017 general election even if he did a bit better than he was expected to?
    I said in a ‘post-Iraq’ world Rentoul’s idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility. I didn’t say that it was never once credible among the electorate (thus the ‘post-Iraq’ world part’). The whole thing of the idea gradually becoming less credibile implies that it once had credibility to begin with. But Blair’s three GE wins don’t change the current political climate: while in 1997, 2001, and in 2005 people may have wanted neo-liberal centrism they don’t now. That’s my point. Rentoul is acting as if a New Labour platform would win today because it was successful in the past. In doing so, he ignores how the political climate has changed and why.

    I also didn’t say Corbynism was particularly credible, merely that attitudes like Rentoul’s has partly led to the emergence of Corbynism.
    I think a centrist candidate could win again and win big - if Cameron returned tomorrow I expect he'd win a GE. The Corbyn attraction is based on the fantasy that the UK can leave austerity behind by spending money lent by the RoW. This is justified as we are doing it now under May. It ignores the reality that money is only lent when people trust that it will be used responsibly and paid back - and this is where Corbynism hits the hard place. The reality is that very modest growth in wages and living standards is all that can be hoped for for some considerable time.
    But what came before Blairism which led to Blairism? Four election defeats caused by Corbynism.
    No, only Foot can be considered Corbynite, Callaghan and Kinnock were more centrist than Corbyn.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 39,452
    edited December 2
    Good evening, everyone.

    On QT: given the Greek ex-finance minister has been on, can we anticipate the wisdom of the Venezuelan finance minister? The Saudi Arabian minister for equality?

    Edited extra bit: and don't forget to read my post-season review, replete with glorious graphs:
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/2017-post-season-review.html
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 24,874
    In Venice this weekend. I’d forgotten just how astonishingly beautiful it is.

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 4,979

    In Venice this weekend. I’d forgotten just how astonishingly beautiful it is.


    A city constructed around a network of open sewers.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 15,056
    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    On Green...he should go of his own accord on the basis that he is detracting attention. It's not fair, just our right that he has to walk for something he might have done years ago which was pretty inconsequential at worse but that's the harsh life of politics. The headlines are just too ghastly for him to stay.


    But if he goes, it will just encourage even more attacks like this.

    That's the nature off politics. Some allegations you can ride...but some, if they go on too long, too embarrassing, are badly handled, etc.... you have to take one for the good of the team. Green is well and truly in this camp.
    Thank God you aren't my constituency MP.

    And I guess from what you say, you'd be happy to have Plod able to access your MPs computer - and to read your private correspondence with your MP. Correspondence that might - theoretically - cover you talking to your MP about police corruption....
  • In Venice this weekend. I’d forgotten just how astonishingly beautiful it is.


    Agreed - been there many times, always wanting to go back there as soon as I leave.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 39,452
    edited December 2
  • tysontyson Posts: 4,106
    RobD said:

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    On Green...he should go of his own accord on the basis that he is detracting attention. It's not fair, just our right that he has to walk for something he might have done years ago which was pretty inconsequential at worse but that's the harsh life of politics. The headlines are just too ghastly for him to stay.


    But if he goes, it will just encourage even more attacks like this.

    That's the nature off politics. Some allegations you can ride...but some, if they go on too long, too embarrassing, are badly handled, etc.... you have to take one for the good of the team. Green is well and truly in this camp.
    The nature of politics is you have to just let the police smear you with information that has no reason to be in the public domain?
    The nature of politics is you get judged by standards that are sanitised and scrutinised by the media and public opinion. Thornberry's silly tweet almost cost her career until Corbyn pitched up when there were insufficient Labour MP's left to fill positions.

    Green needs to exempt himself from the glare of headlines like minister of porn even though the vast majority of men with independent access to the internet have browsed porn.....




  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 16,963
    Some in the police seem determined to correct the public misapprehension that they are more trustworthy than politicians.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,386

    In Venice this weekend. I’d forgotten just how astonishingly beautiful it is.


    Hope you are having a great time SO.
  • stevefstevef Posts: 449
    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    felix said:

    HYUFD said:



    Presumably John Rentoul and his friend don’t realise that post-Iraq world, his idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility, which is a reason why we have Corbynism in the first place. Blair is one of the most reviled politicians in this country. IIRC even when Corbyn was at his most unpopular he was still more popular than Blair. Yet he really thinks the problem was only Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband.

    This would be the same Blair who is the only Labour leader ever to have won 3 successive general elections, 2 of which by landslides? This would also be the same Corbyn who lost the 2017 general election even if he did a bit better than he was expected to?
    I said in a ‘post-Iraq’ world Rentoul’s idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility. I didn’t say that it was never once credible among the electorate (thus the ‘post-Iraq’ world part’). The whole thing of the idea gradually becoming less credibile implies that it once had credibility to begin with. But Blair’s three GE wins don’t change the current political climate: while in 1997, 2001, and in 2005 people may have wanted neo-liberal centrism they don’t now. That’s my point. Rentoul is acting as if a New Labour platform would win today because it was successful in the past. In doing so, he ignores how the political climate has changed and why.

    I also didn’t say Corbynism was particularly credible, merely that attitudes like Rentoul’s has partly led to the emergence of Corbynism.
    I think a centrist candidate could win again and win big - if Cameron returned tomorrow I expect he'd win a GE. The Corbyn attraction is based on the fantasy that the UK can leave austerity behind by spending money lent by the RoW. This is justified as we are doing it now under May. It ignores the reality that money is only lent when people trust that it will be used responsibly and paid back - and this is where Corbynism hits the hard place. The reality is that very modest growth in wages and living standards is all that can be hoped for for some considerable time.
    But what came before Blairism which led to Blairism? Four election defeats caused by Corbynism.
    No, only Foot can be considered Corbynite, Callaghan and Kinnock were more centrist than Corbyn.
    And look what happened in 1983 when Corbyn and the hard left had control of Labour. Callghan, Wilson etc both condemned Corbynism, but from 1980 right through to 1992 and beyond the hard left stopped Labour from winning elections. Kinnock had to make his famous "Labour, a Labour council hiring taxis..." speech against Corbynism.

  • tysontyson Posts: 4,106

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    On Green...he should go of his own accord on the basis that he is detracting attention. It's not fair, just our right that he has to walk for something he might have done years ago which was pretty inconsequential at worse but that's the harsh life of politics. The headlines are just too ghastly for him to stay.


    But if he goes, it will just encourage even more attacks like this.

    That's the nature off politics. Some allegations you can ride...but some, if they go on too long, too embarrassing, are badly handled, etc.... you have to take one for the good of the team. Green is well and truly in this camp.
    Thank God you aren't my constituency MP.

    And I guess from what you say, you'd be happy to have Plod able to access your MPs computer - and to read your private correspondence with your MP. Correspondence that might - theoretically - cover you talking to your MP about police corruption....
    I've already said it's not fair or right......I am just trying to offer a sense of realpolitik

    But I wonder if Green was a lefty we would be getting quite the sense of injustice about the police from right wingers.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,054

    Some in the police seem determined to correct the public misapprehension that they are more trustworthy than politicians.


    When people are asked generically about the police, they think of events like this:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-42207935

  • tysontyson Posts: 4,106

    In Venice this weekend. I’d forgotten just how astonishingly beautiful it is.


    Hope you are having a great time SO.
    Winter is by far the best time to visit the great Italian cities...cheaper, quieter, and more festive....
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,351

    In Venice this weekend. I’d forgotten just how astonishingly beautiful it is.


    Clearly not been to Detroit.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 15,056
    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    On Green...he should go of his own accord on the basis that he is detracting attention. It's not fair, just our right that he has to walk for something he might have done years ago which was pretty inconsequential at worse but that's the harsh life of politics. The headlines are just too ghastly for him to stay.


    But if he goes, it will just encourage even more attacks like this.

    That's the nature off politics. Some allegations you can ride...but some, if they go on too long, too embarrassing, are badly handled, etc.... you have to take one for the good of the team. Green is well and truly in this camp.
    Thank God you aren't my constituency MP.

    And I guess from what you say, you'd be happy to have Plod able to access your MPs computer - and to read your private correspondence with your MP. Correspondence that might - theoretically - cover you talking to your MP about police corruption....
    I've already said it's not fair or right......I am just trying to offer a sense of realpolitik

    But I wonder if Green was a lefty we would be getting quite the sense of injustice about the police from right wingers.
    Right or wrong trumps Right or Left
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 6,104
    @HYUFD That’s why I said ‘gradually’ and not overnight. But at least we agree on something!

    @felix I’m not sure Cameron would win a GE again, especially in this new political climate where many are fed up of austerity, and where a divide in world views and values exists between Remainers and Leavers. The reality is people are not going to accept depressed wages for years and years on end; and a candidate which does not seek to address that is unlikely to win.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 30,411
    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    On Green...he should go of his own accord on the basis that he is detracting attention. It's not fair, just our right that he has to walk for something he might have done years ago which was pretty inconsequential at worse but that's the harsh life of politics. The headlines are just too ghastly for him to stay.


    But if he goes, it will just encourage even more attacks like this.

    That's the nature off politics. Some allegations you can ride...but some, if they go on too long, too embarrassing, are badly handled, etc.... you have to take one for the good of the team. Green is well and truly in this camp.
    Thank God you aren't my constituency MP.

    And I guess from what you say, you'd be happy to have Plod able to access your MPs computer - and to read your private correspondence with your MP. Correspondence that might - theoretically - cover you talking to your MP about police corruption....
    I've already said it's not fair or right......I am just trying to offer a sense of realpolitik

    But I wonder if Green was a lefty we would be getting quite the sense of injustice about the police from right wingers.
    We'd probably have more of it from the left wingers, that's for sure....
  • MJWMJW Posts: 230
    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    On Green...he should go of his own accord on the basis that he is detracting attention. It's not fair, just our right that he has to walk for something he might have done years ago which was pretty inconsequential at worse but that's the harsh life of politics. The headlines are just too ghastly for him to stay.


    But if he goes, it will just encourage even more attacks like this.

    That's the nature off politics. Some allegations you can ride...but some, if they go on too long, too embarrassing, are badly handled, etc.... you have to take one for the good of the team. Green is well and truly in this camp.
    Thank God you aren't my constituency MP.

    And I guess from what you say, you'd be happy to have Plod able to access your MPs computer - and to read your private correspondence with your MP. Correspondence that might - theoretically - cover you talking to your MP about police corruption....
    I've already said it's not fair or right......I am just trying to offer a sense of realpolitik

    But I wonder if Green was a lefty we would be getting quite the sense of injustice about the police from right wingers.
    Bizarrely, Green may end up getting away with stuff because of the focus on the laptop porn and the police's grudge - whatever he did have on there, it's pretty rum having it dug up nine years after the event on the basis of that. But aren't we all forgetting there's a pretty credible accusation of inappropriate behaviour?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 14,976

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    On Green...he should go of his own accord on the basis that he is detracting attention. It's not fair, just our right that he has to walk for something he might have done years ago which was pretty inconsequential at worse but that's the harsh life of politics. The headlines are just too ghastly for him to stay.


    But if he goes, it will just encourage even more attacks like this.

    That's the nature off politics. Some allegations you can ride...but some, if they go on too long, too embarrassing, are badly handled, etc.... you have to take one for the good of the team. Green is well and truly in this camp.
    Thank God you aren't my constituency MP.

    And I guess from what you say, you'd be happy to have Plod able to access your MPs computer - and to read your private correspondence with your MP. Correspondence that might - theoretically - cover you talking to your MP about police corruption....
    I've already said it's not fair or right......I am just trying to offer a sense of realpolitik

    But I wonder if Green was a lefty we would be getting quite the sense of injustice about the police from right wingers.
    Right or wrong trumps Right or Left
    Quite. I’d like to think that most of us criticising the former policemen in this case, would do so no matter who they were targeting.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 24,874

    In Venice this weekend. I’d forgotten just how astonishingly beautiful it is.


    Hope you are having a great time SO.

    It’s just magnificent. And about 100 yards from St Mark’s Square and the Rialto slmost completely empty of tourists (apart from us). You can actually hear people speaking some kind of mangled Italian, which I guess must be the Venetian dialect. That said, walking around last night it was niticeable just how many houses were completely dark because no-one lives in them anymore.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 7,729
    Oh dear oh dear oh dear.

    Clinton, Monica Lewinsky
    Reagan, Iran-Contra
    Nixon, WaterGate
    Richard III, The Princes in the Tower.

    I have an uneasy feeling we're about to add Trump to this list...
  • tysontyson Posts: 4,106

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    On Green...he should go of his own accord on the basis that he is detracting attention. It's not fair, just our right that he has to walk for something he might have done years ago which was pretty inconsequential at worse but that's the harsh life of politics. The headlines are just too ghastly for him to stay.


    But if he goes, it will just encourage even more attacks like this.

    That's the nature off politics. Some allegations you can ride...but some, if they go on too long, too embarrassing, are badly handled, etc.... you have to take one for the good of the team. Green is well and truly in this camp.
    Thank God you aren't my constituency MP.

    And I guess from what you say, you'd be happy to have Plod able to access your MPs computer - and to read your private correspondence with your MP. Correspondence that might - theoretically - cover you talking to your MP about police corruption....
    I've already said it's not fair or right......I am just trying to offer a sense of realpolitik

    But I wonder if Green was a lefty we would be getting quite the sense of injustice about the police from right wingers.
    Right or wrong trumps Right or Left
    I cannot believe it...we we are talking about Damien Green and the role of the police and you still have to bring up Trump....
  • tysontyson Posts: 4,106
    Some advice please...


    I'm nursing a horrible bout of manflu...but I have a ticket for the Divine Comedy this evening. It's a mile walk to the venue. Should I go?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,386
    Sandpit said:

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    On Green...he should go of his own accord on the basis that he is detracting attention. It's not fair, just our right that he has to walk for something he might have done years ago which was pretty inconsequential at worse but that's the harsh life of politics. The headlines are just too ghastly for him to stay.


    But if he goes, it will just encourage even more attacks like this.

    That's the nature off politics. Some allegations you can ride...but some, if they go on too long, too embarrassing, are badly handled, etc.... you have to take one for the good of the team. Green is well and truly in this camp.
    Thank God you aren't my constituency MP.

    And I guess from what you say, you'd be happy to have Plod able to access your MPs computer - and to read your private correspondence with your MP. Correspondence that might - theoretically - cover you talking to your MP about police corruption....
    I've already said it's not fair or right......I am just trying to offer a sense of realpolitik

    But I wonder if Green was a lefty we would be getting quite the sense of injustice about the police from right wingers.
    Right or wrong trumps Right or Left
    Quite. I’d like to think that most of us criticising the former policemen in this case, would do so no matter who they were targeting.
    Absolutely. In fact in terms of latter day politics, as a devout Remainer Green is on the opposite side from me politically. But it would be a real travesty if he lost his job over this.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 15,056
    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    On Green...he should go of his own accord on the basis that he is detracting attention. It's not fair, just our right that he has to walk for something he might have done years ago which was pretty inconsequential at worse but that's the harsh life of politics. The headlines are just too ghastly for him to stay.


    But if he goes, it will just encourage even more attacks like this.

    That's the nature off politics. Some allegations you can ride...but some, if they go on too long, too embarrassing, are badly handled, etc.... you have to take one for the good of the team. Green is well and truly in this camp.
    Thank God you aren't my constituency MP.

    And I guess from what you say, you'd be happy to have Plod able to access your MPs computer - and to read your private correspondence with your MP. Correspondence that might - theoretically - cover you talking to your MP about police corruption....
    I've already said it's not fair or right......I am just trying to offer a sense of realpolitik

    But I wonder if Green was a lefty we would be getting quite the sense of injustice about the police from right wingers.
    Right or wrong trumps Right or Left
    I cannot believe it...we we are talking about Damien Green and the role of the police and you still have to bring up Trump....
    I wonder if the Top Trump cards will ever recover from the current comedy of their name.....
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 15,056
    tyson said:

    Some advice please...


    I'm nursing a horrible bout of manflu...but I have a ticket for the Divine Comedy this evening. It's a mile walk to the venue. Should I go?

    Yes: the walk will do you the power of good.

    No: how could you even THINK of inflicting Manflu on a crowded venue? I mean, the SUFFERING.....
  • @HYUFD That’s why I said ‘gradually’ and not overnight. But at least we agree on something!

    @felix I’m not sure Cameron would win a GE again, especially in this new political climate where many are fed up of austerity, and where a divide in world views and values exists between Remainers and Leavers. The reality is people are not going to accept depressed wages for years and years on end; and a candidate which does not seek to address that is unlikely to win.

    A lot of people are perfectly happy to see depressed wages for manual workers as long as their living standards are enhanced. Hence Brexit, Trump, Sanders and Corbyism.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 8,896
    edited December 2

    In Venice this weekend. I’d forgotten just how astonishingly beautiful it is.


    Hope you are having a great time SO.

    It’s just magnificent. And about 100 yards from St Mark’s Square and the Rialto slmost completely empty of tourists (apart from us). You can actually hear people speaking some kind of mangled Italian, which I guess must be the Venetian dialect. That said, walking around last night it was niticeable just how many houses were completely dark because no-one lives in them anymore.

    Veneziano or Venesian, a sub-strand of the Lingua Veneta, which most people consider a dialect of Italian although some argue it's (or was originally) a distinct language (what we call Italian being originally Tuscan dialect, although oddly they also have a different dialect there now, as well)

    Watch out for the floods!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 7,729

    Sandpit said:

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    On Green...he should go of his own accord on the basis that he is detracting attention. It's not fair, just our right that he has to walk for something he might have done years ago which was pretty inconsequential at worse but that's the harsh life of politics. The headlines are just too ghastly for him to stay.


    But if he goes, it will just encourage even more attacks like this.

    That's the nature off politics. Some allegations you can ride...but some, if they go on too long, too embarrassing, are badly handled, etc.... you have to take one for the good of the team. Green is well and truly in this camp.
    Thank God you aren't my constituency MP.

    And I guess from what you say, you'd be happy to have Plod able to access your MPs computer - and to read your private correspondence with your MP. Correspondence that might - theoretically - cover you talking to your MP about police corruption....
    I've already said it's not fair or right......I am just trying to offer a sense of realpolitik

    But I wonder if Green was a lefty we would be getting quite the sense of injustice about the police from right wingers.
    Right or wrong trumps Right or Left
    Quite. I’d like to think that most of us criticising the former policemen in this case, would do so no matter who they were targeting.
    Absolutely. In fact in terms of latter day politics, as a devout Remainer Green is on the opposite side from me politically. But it would be a real travesty if he lost his job over this.
    I have always thought the police should have been prosecuted over Hillsborough and Dick should have been sacked over de Menezes, both for the disasters and for the attempted cover-ups. I also said that very loudly at the time.

    I also once threatened to have two constables prosecuted for illegally stopping cars in Dursley for no reason while failing to show ID, which caused their sergeant a great deal of anxiety (he deserved it the bastard).

    Don't know enough about Orgreave to comment. But if we don't hold the police to the highest standards, we're fools given the powers they have.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 7,729

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    On Green...he should go of his own accord on the basis that he is detracting attention. It's not fair, just our right that he has to walk for something he might have done years ago which was pretty inconsequential at worse but that's the harsh life of politics. The headlines are just too ghastly for him to stay.


    But if he goes, it will just encourage even more attacks like this.

    That's the nature off politics. Some allegations you can ride...but some, if they go on too long, too embarrassing, are badly handled, etc.... you have to take one for the good of the team. Green is well and truly in this camp.
    Thank God you aren't my constituency MP.

    And I guess from what you say, you'd be happy to have Plod able to access your MPs computer - and to read your private correspondence with your MP. Correspondence that might - theoretically - cover you talking to your MP about police corruption....
    I've already said it's not fair or right......I am just trying to offer a sense of realpolitik

    But I wonder if Green was a lefty we would be getting quite the sense of injustice about the police from right wingers.
    Right or wrong trumps Right or Left
    I cannot believe it...we we are talking about Damien Green and the role of the police and you still have to bring up Trump....
    I wonder if the Top Trump cards will ever recover from the current comedy of their name.....
    Sanity zilch

    Hand size inadequate :lol:
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 9,623



    Presumably John Rentoul and his friend don’t realise that post-Iraq world, his idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility, which is a reason why we have Corbynism in the first place. Blair is one of the most reviled politicians in this country. IIRC even when Corbyn was at his most unpopular he was still more popular than Blair. Yet he really thinks the problem was only Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband.

    Like plato used to do here, Rentoul has played the "former Labour voter" to the point that he should really give it a rest. As I understand it, he's a Conservative and has been for some time. No reason why he shouldn't be, but it makes him less than useful as a guide to Labour, in the same way as you wouldn't look to Polly Toynbee to advise on Conservative direction.

    Like you, I think the tide ha moved away from the type of Labour politics that he and Tony Blair espoused. Many people on all sides of politics haven't really noticed that the greeat ideological battles of the 20th century have disappeared. They think that nothing in politics demonstrably works for them, though they draw different conclusions from that.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 15,056
    ydoethur said:

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    On Green...he should go of his own accord on the basis that he is detracting attention. It's not fair, just our right that he has to walk for something he might have done years ago which was pretty inconsequential at worse but that's the harsh life of politics. The headlines are just too ghastly for him to stay.


    But if he goes, it will just encourage even more attacks like this.

    That's the nature off politics. Some allegations you can ride...but some, if they go on too long, too embarrassing, are badly handled, etc.... you have to take one for the good of the team. Green is well and truly in this camp.
    Thank God you aren't my constituency MP.

    And I guess from what you say, you'd be happy to have Plod able to access your MPs computer - and to read your private correspondence with your MP. Correspondence that might - theoretically - cover you talking to your MP about police corruption....
    I've already said it's not fair or right......I am just trying to offer a sense of realpolitik

    But I wonder if Green was a lefty we would be getting quite the sense of injustice about the police from right wingers.
    Right or wrong trumps Right or Left
    I cannot believe it...we we are talking about Damien Green and the role of the police and you still have to bring up Trump....
    I wonder if the Top Trump cards will ever recover from the current comedy of their name.....
    Sanity zilch

    Hand size inadequate :lol:
    Ego vast
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 8,896



    Presumably John Rentoul and his friend don’t realise that post-Iraq world, his idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility, which is a reason why we have Corbynism in the first place. Blair is one of the most reviled politicians in this country. IIRC even when Corbyn was at his most unpopular he was still more popular than Blair. Yet he really thinks the problem was only Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband.

    Like plato used to do here, Rentoul has played the "former Labour voter" to the point that he should really give it a rest. As I understand it, he's a Conservative and has been for some time. No reason why he shouldn't be, but it makes him less than useful as a guide to Labour, in the same way as you wouldn't look to Polly Toynbee to advise on Conservative direction.

    Like you, I think the tide ha moved away from the type of Labour politics that he and Tony Blair espoused. Many people on all sides of politics haven't really noticed that the greeat ideological battles of the 20th century have disappeared. They think that nothing in politics demonstrably works for them, though they draw different conclusions from that.
    I too agree that the fault-lines of politics are shifting, particularly the decline in class as a driver of behaviour. But the small-letter liberal v conservative dimension remains as alive as ever, and it is becoming harder to see Labour being an effective champion for liberal values given how conflicted it is by its traditions and base.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 7,729

    ydoethur said:

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    On Green...he should go of his own accord on the basis that he is detracting attention. It's not fair, just our right that he has to walk for something he might have done years ago which was pretty inconsequential at worse but that's the harsh life of politics. The headlines are just too ghastly for him to stay.


    But if he goes, it will just encourage even more attacks like this.

    That's the nature off politics. Some allegations you can ride...but some, if they go on too long, too embarrassing, are badly handled, etc.... you have to take one for the good of the team. Green is well and truly in this camp.
    Thank God you aren't my constituency MP.

    And I guess from what you say, you'd be happy to have Plod able to access your MPs computer - and to read your private correspondence with your MP. Correspondence that might - theoretically - cover you talking to your MP about police corruption....
    I've already said it's not fair or right......I am just trying to offer a sense of realpolitik

    But I wonder if Green was a lefty we would be getting quite the sense of injustice about the police from right wingers.
    Right or wrong trumps Right or Left
    I cannot believe it...we we are talking about Damien Green and the role of the police and you still have to bring up Trump....
    I wonder if the Top Trump cards will ever recover from the current comedy of their name.....
    Sanity zilch

    Hand size inadequate :lol:
    Ego vast
    Hair unbelievable
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 10,366
    Confirmation, if it were needed, that Pence would make a shite president.

  • felixfelix Posts: 6,872

    @HYUFD That’s why I said ‘gradually’ and not overnight. But at least we agree on something!

    @felix I’m not sure Cameron would win a GE again, especially in this new political climate where many are fed up of austerity, and where a divide in world views and values exists between Remainers and Leavers. The reality is people are not going to accept depressed wages for years and years on end; and a candidate which does not seek to address that is unlikely to win.

    I love the touching naivety which simply asserts that austerity is a matter of choice.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 7,729

    Confirmation, if it were needed, that Pence would make a shite president.

    I'm disappointed TUD. You missed a fabulous opportunity for a pun on Hannan being only three farthings in the Pence.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 7,729
    felix said:

    @HYUFD That’s why I said ‘gradually’ and not overnight. But at least we agree on something!

    @felix I’m not sure Cameron would win a GE again, especially in this new political climate where many are fed up of austerity, and where a divide in world views and values exists between Remainers and Leavers. The reality is people are not going to accept depressed wages for years and years on end; and a candidate which does not seek to address that is unlikely to win.

    I love the touching naivety which simply asserts that austerity is a matter of choice.
    Actually, it is a choice. It may be the sensible choice. It may be the right choice. But as long as we have an alternative - national bankruptcy being an alternative - it's still a choice.

    As Odo said, when you give people a choice the problem is sometimes they make that wrong choice.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 19,105

    In Venice this weekend. I’d forgotten just how astonishingly beautiful it is.


    Hope you are having a great time SO.

    It’s just magnificent. And about 100 yards from St Mark’s Square and the Rialto slmost completely empty of tourists (apart from us). You can actually hear people speaking some kind of mangled Italian, which I guess must be the Venetian dialect. That said, walking around last night it was niticeable just how many houses were completely dark because no-one lives in them anymore.

    Venetian is almost a separate language.

    The sad thing is, hardly anyone still lives in Venice.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 20,498
    Have any PBers invested in Bitcoin?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 14,976
    So the story that dropped the Greenback 2% against all major currencies this week was, err, I’m sure there’s a phrase for it, wait for the tweet....

    FAKE NEWS!!!

    Rather like Damian Green, people are going to start sympathising with Trump if this continues.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 9,623
    IanB2 said:



    I too agree that the fault-lines of politics are shifting, particularly the decline in class as a driver of behaviour. But the small-letter liberal v conservative dimension remains as alive as ever, and it is becoming harder to see Labour being an effective champion for liberal values given how conflicted it is by its traditions and base.

    But pure liberals (like pure free marketeers and pure socialists) are not common in the general electorate. People have become much more socially liberal on sexual matters, but they're often quite interventionist in economics and un-liberal on crime.

    But I'm not sure that the labels take us far any more. People are mostly quite conflicted themselves.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,386
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    On Green...he should go of his own accord on the basis that he is detracting attention. It's not fair, just our right that he has to walk for something he might have done years ago which was pretty inconsequential at worse but that's the harsh life of politics. The headlines are just too ghastly for him to stay.


    But if he goes, it will just encourage even more attacks like this.

    That's the nature off politics. Some allegations you can ride...but some, if they go on too long, too embarrassing, are badly handled, etc.... you have to take one for the good of the team. Green is well and truly in this camp.
    Thank God you aren't my constituency MP.

    And I guess from what you say, you'd be happy to have Plod able to access your MPs computer - and to read your private correspondence with your MP. Correspondence that might - theoretically - cover you talking to your MP about police corruption....
    I've already said it's not fair or right......I am just trying to offer a sense of realpolitik

    But I wonder if Green was a lefty we would be getting quite the sense of injustice about the police from right wingers.
    Right or wrong trumps Right or Left
    Quite. I’d like to think that most of us criticising the former policemen in this case, would do so no matter who they were targeting.
    Absolutely. In fact in terms of latter day politics, as a devout Remainer Green is on the opposite side from me politically. But it would be a real travesty if he lost his job over this.
    I have always thought the police should have been prosecuted over Hillsborough and Dick should have been sacked over de Menezes, both for the disasters and for the attempted cover-ups. I also said that very loudly at the time.

    I also once threatened to have two constables prosecuted for illegally stopping cars in Dursley for no reason while failing to show ID, which caused their sergeant a great deal of anxiety (he deserved it the bastard).

    Don't know enough about Orgreave to comment. But if we don't hold the police to the highest standards, we're fools given the powers they have.
    Agree with this completely, The police can only act by consent in a democracy and if they cannot be trusted to be impartial and fair on all sides and abide by the law themselves then they cannot be expect that consent from the public.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 36,073
    edited December 2
    stevef said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    felix said:

    HYUFD said:



    Presumably John Rentoul and his friend don’t realise that post-Iraq world, his idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility, which is a reason why we have Corbynism in the first place. Blair is one of the most reviled politicians in this country. IIRC even when Corbyn was at his most unpopular he was still more popular than Blair. Yet he really thinks the problem was only Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband.

    This would be the same Blair who is the only Labour leader ever to have won 3 successive general elections, 2 of which by landslides? This would also be the same Corbyn who lost the 2017 general election even if he did a bit better than he was expected to?
    I said in a ‘post-Iraq’ world Rentoul’s idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility. I didn’t say that it was never once credible among the electorate (thus the ‘post-Iraq’ world part’). The whole thing of the idea gradually becoming less credibile implies that it once had credibility to begin with. But Blair’s three GE wins don’t change the current political climate: while in 1997, 2001, and in 2005 people may have wanted neo-liberal centrism they don’t now. That’s my point. Rentoul is acting as if a New Labour platform would win today because it was successful in the past. In doing so, he ignores how the political climate has changed and why.

    I also didn’t say Corbynism was particularly credible, merely that attitudes like Rentoul’s has partly led to the emergence of Corbynism.
    I think a centrist candidate could win again and win big - if Cameron returned tomorrow I expect he'd .
    But what came before Blairism which led to Blairism? Four election defeats caused by Corbynism.
    No, only Foot can be considered Corbynite, Callaghan and Kinnock were more centrist than Corbyn.
    And look what happened in 1983 when Corbyn and the hard left had control of Labour. Callghan, Wilson etc both condemned Corbynism, but from 1980 right through to 1992 and beyond the hard left stopped Labour from winning elections. Kinnock had to make his famous "Labour, a Labour council hiring taxis..." speech against Corbynism.

    Corbyn has certainly got a leftwing manifesto far closer than Foot managed in 1983, helped by the weakness of the Liberals unlike the SDP then, the LDs 7% in June unlike the SDP's 25% in 1983 meant Labour was able to reach 40% rather than the 28% Foot got. Thatcher in 1983 got 42.40%, almost exactly the same as the 42.34% May got in June.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 7,729
    edited December 2

    The police can only act by consent

    Those are in fact the exact words the Dursley police sergeant used to me. Without disagreeing with your main point, I fired straight back that actually his powers derived from the criminal law - which his officers had been breaking.

    He went awfully quiet.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 36,073
    felix said:

    @HYUFD That’s why I said ‘gradually’ and not overnight. But at least we agree on something!

    @felix I’m not sure Cameron would win a GE again, especially in this new political climate where many are fed up of austerity, and where a divide in world views and values exists between Remainers and Leavers. The reality is people are not going to accept depressed wages for years and years on end; and a candidate which does not seek to address that is unlikely to win.

    I love the touching naivety which simply asserts that austerity is a matter of choice.
    The Tories favour spending cuts to cut the deficit, hence spending has fallen from 49% of gdp in 2010 to about 42% now and Osborne set a target of spending of 35% of gdp, the same as the tax take as a percentage of gdp. Corbyn Labour favours raising taxes rather than cutting spending to reduce the deficit.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 8,896

    IanB2 said:



    I too agree that the fault-lines of politics are shifting, particularly the decline in class as a driver of behaviour. But the small-letter liberal v conservative dimension remains as alive as ever, and it is becoming harder to see Labour being an effective champion for liberal values given how conflicted it is by its traditions and base.

    But pure liberals (like pure free marketeers and pure socialists) are not common in the general electorate. People have become much more socially liberal on sexual matters, but they're often quite interventionist in economics and un-liberal on crime.

    But I'm not sure that the labels take us far any more. People are mostly quite conflicted themselves.
    The voters are however allowed to be conflicted; it's politicians who are supposed to offer coherent and consistent ideological platforms. Otherwise it's just one set of confused managers compared to another.
  • TonyTony Posts: 117
    IanB2 said:

    In Venice this weekend. I’d forgotten just how astonishingly beautiful it is.


    Hope you are having a great time SO.

    It’s just magnificent. And about 100 yards from St Mark’s Square and the Rialto slmost completely empty of tourists (apart from us). You can actually hear people speaking some kind of mangled Italian, which I guess must be the Venetian dialect. That said, walking around last night it was niticeable just how many houses were completely dark because no-one lives in them anymore.

    Veneziano or Venesian, a sub-strand of the Lingua Veneta, which most people consider a dialect of Italian although some argue it's (or was originally) a distinct language (what we call Italian being originally Tuscan dialect, although oddly they also have a different dialect there now, as well)

    Watch out for the floods!
    Italian was the Florentine dialect, my parents village in northern Tuscany has a noticeably difference dialect fed from Pisa . Venice is gorgeous but dying, it's turning into Italy's version of Disneyland with the number of residents dropping year by year.
  • ArtistArtist Posts: 1,384
    Labour haven't even tried to win over Tory voters since 2010, so it's very much untested whether they could if they went down that route. Ed Miliband's liberal coalition failed, Corbyn's purer Labour did better but was still quashed by a massive unchallenged Tory vote. If they fail again at the next election surely the penny will drop that as long as Labour don't gain swing voters directly, they will not get the seats they need to get back into power.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 4,477
    HYUFD said:

    tyson said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    HYUFD said:



    Presumably John Rentoul and his friend don’t realise that post-Iraq world, his idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility, which is a reason why we have Corbynism in the first place. Blair is one of the most reviled politicians in this country. IIRC even when Corbyn was at his most unpopular he was still more popular than Blair. Yet he really thinks the problem was only Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband.

    This would be the same Blair who is the only Labour leader ever to have won 3 successive general elections, 2 of which by landslides? This would also be the same Corbyn who lost the 2017 general election even if he did a bit better than he was expected to?
    Corbyn is going to go down in history as the worst Labour leader of all time-and this will be true, even in the unlikely event of him forming a minority government after the next election. He is so extreme, and so inept and so incompetent and so ideologically inflexible that a few months of him would be quite enough to send the voters fleeing to the Tories for a generation.
    To be fair to Corbyn he is a better Labour leader than Ed Miliband, Brown, Foot, Callaghan and Gaitskill and most of the pre WW2 leaders were but he is a worse leader thsn Attlee, Wilson, Blair and maybe even Kinnock were.
    We all remember the EdStone...and for that Miliband junior must rank as the most appalling leader of Labour in memory.

    Callaghan is a bit too young for me, though I did meet him once, and I think he wasn't really given much of a chance to show his true self
    In my lifetime I think Foot was worst (though I was too young to really remember him) with Ed Miliband secomd worst.

    Callaghan was unlucky to take over when the unions were really flexing their muscles and to be fair to him he did try and take sensible decisions on the public finances.
    It is rather a myth that the unions were running amok in the Callaghan years. Until the Ford Motor strike in Autumn 1978 which was then followed by the Winter of Discontent in January & February 1979 the industrial scene had been largely peaceful since Wilson returned to office in March 1974. The way the Callaghan Government ended has coloured perceptions of that period as a whole. The Heath Government of the early to mid 70s and the earlier Wilson Government in the late 60s saw much more industrial unrest.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,386

    IanB2 said:



    I too agree that the fault-lines of politics are shifting, particularly the decline in class as a driver of behaviour. But the small-letter liberal v conservative dimension remains as alive as ever, and it is becoming harder to see Labour being an effective champion for liberal values given how conflicted it is by its traditions and base.

    But pure liberals (like pure free marketeers and pure socialists) are not common in the general electorate. People have become much more socially liberal on sexual matters, but they're often quite interventionist in economics and un-liberal on crime.

    But I'm not sure that the labels take us far any more. People are mostly quite conflicted themselves.
    Absolutely. I think we are all a mass of contradictions when it comes to both political and economic views. For example;

    I agree with open borders and migration uncontrolled by governments. But I also feel anger and sadness when I see more and more housebuilding being proposed.

    I want as little Government intervention in markets and in our activities as possible but I then get angry when that allows developers to destroy archaeological or environmentally sensitive sites because of lack of oversight.

    I want absolute equality of treatment for all parts of society but still feel uneasy when an individual hotelier or shop keeper is prosecuted or forced out of business because of their religious beliefs conflicting with the law.

    In all these cases I have chosen to let head rule over heart and so argue in favour of open borders, migration, cutting government intervention and abiding by equality laws. But I still recognise that these are things I am greatly conflicted over and as a result my arguments are not necessarily logical or coordinated in these or many other cases.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 8,896
    Tony said:

    IanB2 said:

    In Venice this weekend. I’d forgotten just how astonishingly beautiful it is.


    Hope you are having a great time SO.

    It’s just magnificent. And about 100 yards from St Mark’s Square and the Rialto slmost completely empty of tourists (apart from us). You can actually hear people speaking some kind of mangled Italian, which I guess must be the Venetian dialect. That said, walking around last night it was niticeable just how many houses were completely dark because no-one lives in them anymore.

    Veneziano or Venesian, a sub-strand of the Lingua Veneta, which most people consider a dialect of Italian although some argue it's (or was originally) a distinct language (what we call Italian being originally Tuscan dialect, although oddly they also have a different dialect there now, as well)

    Watch out for the floods!
    Italian was the Florentine dialect, my parents village in northern Tuscany has a noticeably difference dialect fed from Pisa . Venice is gorgeous but dying, it's turning into Italy's version of Disneyland with the number of residents dropping year by year.
    Yes, Italy is full of dialects, a few of which are generally considered minority languages in their own right. For anyone interested, the best video on it is here:


  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,386
    ydoethur said:

    The police can only act by consent

    Those are in fact the exact words the Dursley police sergeant used to me. Without disagreeing with your main point, I fired straight back that actually his powers derived from the criminal law - which his officers had been breaking.

    He went awfully quiet.
    I would say that the two are not mutually exclusive. Part of that consent is the understanding they will operate within the legal framework that has been defined by our elected representatives. So the sentiment is exactly right but he clearly did not understand what it meant in practice.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 6,104
    Disagree that Labour didn’t try to win over Tory voters under Ed Miliband - at one point he was flirting with that Blue Labour strategy especially the parts on immigration and welfare reform, and certainly Labour tried to talk ‘tough’ on immigration and welfare in a bid to win over Conservative voters. The reality is, triangulation in this political climate is no longer effective. You cannot outflank the Tories nor UKIP on issues such as immigration and welfare. Also, for all the talk of winning over swing voters, Corbyn actually won marginals despite being more left wing than Ed Miliband, so they did gain some swing voters.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,351



    Presumably John Rentoul and his friend don’t realise that post-Iraq world, his idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility, which is a reason why we have Corbynism in the first place. Blair is one of the most reviled politicians in this country. IIRC even when Corbyn was at his most unpopular he was still more popular than Blair. Yet he really thinks the problem was only Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband.

    Like plato used to do here, Rentoul has played the "former Labour voter" to the point that he should really give it a rest. As I understand it, he's a Conservative and has been for some time. No reason why he shouldn't be, but it makes him less than useful as a guide to Labour, in the same way as you wouldn't look to Polly Toynbee to advise on Conservative direction.

    Like you, I think the tide ha moved away from the type of Labour politics that he and Tony Blair espoused. Many people on all sides of politics haven't really noticed that the greeat ideological battles of the 20th century have disappeared. They think that nothing in politics demonstrably works for them, though they draw different conclusions from that.
    Officers in my CLP are openly advocating Marxism. The C19 has replaced the battles of C20.


    Hanging on my a thread. Not good.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 36,073
    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    tyson said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    HYUFD said:



    Presumably John Rentoul and his friend don’t realise that post-Iraq world, his idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility, which is a reason why we have Corbynism in the first place. Blair is one of the most reviled politicians in this country. IIRC even when Corbyn was at his most unpopular he was still more popular than Blair. Yet he really thinks the problem was only Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband.

    This would be the same Blair who is the only Labour leader ever to have won 3 successive general elections, 2 of which by landslides? This would also be the same Corbyn who lost the 2017 general election even if he did a bit better than he was expected to?
    Corbyn is going to go down in history as the worst Labour leader of all time-and this will be true, even in the unlikely event of him forming a minority government after the next election. He is so extreme, and so inept and so incompetent and so ideologically inflexible that a few months of him would be quite enough to send the voters fleeing to the Tories for a generation.
    To be fair to Corbyn he is a better Labour leader than Ed Miliband, Brown, Foot, Callaghan and Gaitskill and most of the pre WW2 leaders were but he is a worse leader thsn Attlee, Wilson, Blair and maybe even Kinnock were.
    We all remember the EdStone...and for that Miliband junior must rank as the most appalling leader of Labour in memory.

    Callaghan is a bit too young for me, though I did meet him once, and I think he wasn't really given much of a chance to show his true self
    In my lifetime I think Foot was worst (though I was too young to really remember him) with Ed Miliband secomd worst.

    Callaghan was unlucky to take over when the unions were really flexing their muscles and to be fair to him he did try and take sensible decisions on the public finances.
    It is rather a myth that the unions were running amok in the Callaghan years. Until the Ford Motor strike in Autumn 1978 which was then followed by the Winter of Discontent in January & February 1979 the industrial scene had been largely peaceful since Wilson returned to office in March 1974. The way the Callaghan Government ended has coloured perceptions of that period as a whole. The Heath Government of the early to mid 70s and the earlier Wilson Government in the late 60s saw much more industrial unrest.
    It took Thatcher to control the unions after Wilson, Heath and Callaghan all failed to do so
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 6,104



    Presumably John Rentoul and his friend don’t realise that post-Iraq world, his idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility, which is a reason why we have Corbynism in the first place. Blair is one of the most reviled politicians in this country. IIRC even when Corbyn was at his most unpopular he was still more popular than Blair. Yet he really thinks the problem was only Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband.

    Like plato used to do here, Rentoul has played the "former Labour voter" to the point that he should really give it a rest. As I understand it, he's a Conservative and has been for some time. No reason why he shouldn't be, but it makes him less than useful as a guide to Labour, in the same way as you wouldn't look to Polly Toynbee to advise on Conservative direction.

    Like you, I think the tide ha moved away from the type of Labour politics that he and Tony Blair espoused. Many people on all sides of politics haven't really noticed that the greeat ideological battles of the 20th century have disappeared. They think that nothing in politics demonstrably works for them, though they draw different conclusions from that.
    I had no idea he was now a Conservative. I thought he was a Labour supporter on the right of the party. Well that totally changes how I see some of his tweets now!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 8,896



    Presumably John Rentoul and his friend don’t realise that post-Iraq world, his idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility, which is a reason why we have Corbynism in the first place. Blair is one of the most reviled politicians in this country. IIRC even when Corbyn was at his most unpopular he was still more popular than Blair. Yet he really thinks the problem was only Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband.

    Like plato used to do here, Rentoul has played the "former Labour voter" to the point that he should really give it a rest. As I understand it, he's a Conservative and has been for some time. No reason why he shouldn't be, but it makes him less than useful as a guide to Labour, in the same way as you wouldn't look to Polly Toynbee to advise on Conservative direction.

    Like you, I think the tide ha moved away from the type of Labour politics that he and Tony Blair espoused. Many people on all sides of politics haven't really noticed that the greeat ideological battles of the 20th century have disappeared. They think that nothing in politics demonstrably works for them, though they draw different conclusions from that.
    I had no idea he was now a Conservative. I thought he was a Labour supporter on the right of the party. Well that totally changes how I see some of his tweets now!
    He's not keen on Brexit though, is he?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 7,729



    Presumably John Rentoul and his friend don’t realise that post-Iraq world, his idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility, which is a reason why we have Corbynism in the first place. Blair is one of the most reviled politicians in this country. IIRC even when Corbyn was at his most unpopular he was still more popular than Blair. Yet he really thinks the problem was only Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband.

    Like plato used to do here, Rentoul has played the "former Labour voter" to the point that he should really give it a rest. As I understand it, he's a Conservative and has been for some time. No reason why he shouldn't be, but it makes him less than useful as a guide to Labour, in the same way as you wouldn't look to Polly Toynbee to advise on Conservative direction.

    Like you, I think the tide ha moved away from the type of Labour politics that he and Tony Blair espoused. Many people on all sides of politics haven't really noticed that the greeat ideological battles of the 20th century have disappeared. They think that nothing in politics demonstrably works for them, though they draw different conclusions from that.
    I had no idea he was now a Conservative. I thought he was a Labour supporter on the right of the party. Well that totally changes how I see some of his tweets now!
    James Callaghan was a Conservative according to the Bennites.

    As Jonathan doesn't quite say, it's back to the 70s.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 6,104
    edited December 2
    IanB2 said:



    Presumably John Rentoul and his friend don’t realise that post-Iraq world, his idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility, which is a reason why we have Corbynism in the first place. Blair is one of the most reviled politicians in this country. IIRC even when Corbyn was at his most unpopular he was still more popular than Blair. Yet he really thinks the problem was only Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband.

    Like plato used to do here, Rentoul has played the "former Labour voter" to the point that he should really give it a rest. As I understand it, he's a Conservative and has been for some time. No reason why he shouldn't be, but it makes him less than useful as a guide to Labour, in the same way as you wouldn't look to Polly Toynbee to advise on Conservative direction.

    Like you, I think the tide ha moved away from the type of Labour politics that he and Tony Blair espoused. Many people on all sides of politics haven't really noticed that the greeat ideological battles of the 20th century have disappeared. They think that nothing in politics demonstrably works for them, though they draw different conclusions from that.
    I had no idea he was now a Conservative. I thought he was a Labour supporter on the right of the party. Well that totally changes how I see some of his tweets now!
    He's not keen on Brexit though, is he?
    Yes, but I think it’s the same for Dan Hodges who IIRC supported the Tories at the GE.
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 920
    [delete older text]

    It is rather a myth that the unions were running amok in the Callaghan years. Until the Ford Motor strike in Autumn 1978 which was then followed by the Winter of Discontent in January & February 1979 the industrial scene had been largely peaceful since Wilson returned to office in March 1974. The way the Callaghan Government ended has coloured perceptions of that period as a whole. The Heath Government of the early to mid 70s and the earlier Wilson Government in the late 60s saw much more industrial unrest.
    ******

    It took Thatcher to control the unions after Wilson, Heath and Callaghan all failed to do so
    ******

    Castle, with Wilson's support, wanted to tame the unions and issued In Place of Strife, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Place_of_Strife.

    Callaghan had no time for this, being much closer to the unions than either Castle or Wilson. When he took over in 1976, he sacked her.
This discussion has been closed.