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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If the Brexit impact papers don’t exist what were the redacted

SystemSystem Posts: 3,967
edited December 6 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If the Brexit impact papers don’t exist what were the redacted papers that were made available a few weeks back?

By all account this has been another extraordinary Brexit day. As well as TMay’s troubles with the DUP we have DDavis now saying the the impact assessment papers on 58 sections of the economy simply do not exist.

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 17,988
    edited December 6
    Thirst.

    This would be hilarious if it wasn't so darned serious.
  • So glad I uploaded this picture up to the PB server.

    I suspect it is going to get used a lot.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 20,316

    TOPPING said:



    Don't worry, Tyndall is just suffering from Post-Victory Shrill Bitterness Syndrome. Remainers were cowards this morning even Navy types who didn't stick to port.

    Nope. This is nothing to do with Brexit. I detest Heseltine as a treacherous self serving scumbag who helped to bring down Thatcher, betrayed the Nottinghamshire miners and put his own ambition ahead of any loyalty to leader, party or country.

    Contrast with someone like Ken Clark who may be a terrible Remoaner but has always done his damndest to stay loyal to party and country.
    Whatever you might say about Clarke and his Europhilia, I always admired him for taking on the white collar unions. Like Gove, he's willing to take on special interest groups. (I also thought a lot of the shit he got as Justice Secretary was completely undeserved.)
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 59,709
    edited December 6
    As I've been saying for a while, keep on laying David Davis for next leader/PM.

    It is a licence* to print money.

    *Not an actual licence, and plus hubris...
  • So glad I uploaded this picture up to the PB server.

    I suspect it is going to get used a lot.

    I missed why you've become such a fan of Mr Hewitt?
  • So glad I uploaded this picture up to the PB server.

    I suspect it is going to get used a lot.

    I missed why you've become such a fan of Mr Hewitt?
    Showing off my monarchist credentials, I chose it the day Prince Harry announced his engagement.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 39,452
    Mr. Jessop, an apt description which equally applies to the Roman battle tactics at Arausio.
  • So glad I uploaded this picture up to the PB server.

    I suspect it is going to get used a lot.

    I missed why you've become such a fan of Mr Hewitt?
    Showing off my monarchist credentials, I chose it the day Prince Harry announced his engagement.
    Aha... I thought it might be engagement related...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 41,925

    As I've been saying for a while, keep on laying David Davis for next leader/PM.

    It is a licence* to print money.

    *Not an actual licence, and plus hubris...

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,386
    rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:



    Don't worry, Tyndall is just suffering from Post-Victory Shrill Bitterness Syndrome. Remainers were cowards this morning even Navy types who didn't stick to port.

    Nope. This is nothing to do with Brexit. I detest Heseltine as a treacherous self serving scumbag who helped to bring down Thatcher, betrayed the Nottinghamshire miners and put his own ambition ahead of any loyalty to leader, party or country.

    Contrast with someone like Ken Clark who may be a terrible Remoaner but has always done his damndest to stay loyal to party and country.
    Whatever you might say about Clarke and his Europhilia, I always admired him for taking on the white collar unions. Like Gove, he's willing to take on special interest groups. (I also thought a lot of the shit he got as Justice Secretary was completely undeserved.)
    Just to repeat from the previous thread. Did you get my message and are you out of the way of the fires?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 59,709
    edited December 6
    I'm still reeling from the fact no qualitative impact assessments on leaving the Customs Union were done before leaving the Customs Union the decision was taken by Mrs May.

    I have a report like that right in front of me which undertook in March 2016 and have been constantly updating.

    Astonishing.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 1,370
    FPT:
    Anorak said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    TOPPING said:

    RoyalBlue said:



    hmm - I don't think it follows that this is a permanent change in our culture. But what is our culture? What about The Windrush? How about the Ugandan Asian crisis, the Jews, the Huguenots.

    Snip

    Point is, what is our culture?
    Ah the Huguenots! No discussion of immigration would be complete without that distinguished but numerically immaterial group.

    Numbers matter. The immigration that the U.K. has experienced since 1997 has no historical precedent in terms of both absolute numbers and as a percentage of the population. As the immigrant proportion increases, the incentives to assimilate reduce, meaning that higher immigration will lead to further ghettoisation.

    I completely agree that culture is not static. It changes over time. However, it is blindingly obvious but seemingly unsayable that immigration from countries with more commonalities in terms of culture and language is easier to manage than those with large differences. The descendants of Caribbean migrants have assimilated almost totally; the Ultra-Orthodox Jews have not, despite arriving half a century earlier.

    There are growing parts of the country which are utterly alien to any form of recognisably British culture. Cultures are like families; hard to define, with fuzzy edges, but still real and meaningful.
    I think ultra-orthodox Jews are a special case. They are almost defined by their desire to isolate themselves from everyone else. They have largely separate communities even in Israel, and after 6 or 7 generations in NYC.

    I'm confident EU immigrants will assimilate perfectly well within a generation of arriving.
    Special cases can have quite a large effect when they reach a material % of the overall population. Israeli governments effectively cannot be formed without at least one Ultra-Orthodox party, with an enormous knock-on for policies towards the West Bank, rights of secular Jews etc.

    Ed Miliband put an Islamic blasphemy law in his 2015 manifesto. It doesn't bode well for the future.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 8,896
    Blindingly obvious that they simply dare not produce them, for fear of the contents. The stakes are so high that one lie after another is coming out from government to try and muddy the water.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 24,874
    To think, David Davis has been entrusted with negotiating Brexit for us - with help, every now and again, from Theresa May. And there's Boris Johnson, Liam Fox, Andrea Leadsom and others waiting in the wings. What a team!!
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 3,966
    edited December 6
    The papers simply don't exist. The work has not been done, or has been utterly suppressed.

    There are far too many remainers and anti-Tories in the Civil Service for the documents not to have been leaked if they were bad for Brexit. If they'd shown Brexit was good, they'd have been published on gold-embossed vellum bound in otter-skin, sat on a velvet cushion and paraded down Whitehall with a military band playing Land of Hope and Glory.
  • So glad I uploaded this picture up to the PB server.

    I suspect it is going to get used a lot.

    I missed why you've become such a fan of Mr Hewitt?
    Showing off my monarchist credentials, I chose it the day Prince Harry announced his engagement.
    Aha... I thought it might be engagement related...
    I like Prince Harry but I'm also a fan of Suits and Meghan Markle, her leaving the show because Prince Harry is taking her up the aisle has irked me.
  • And to think the Leavers used to criticise Cameron for making no preparations for Leaving.

    David Davis has had 17 months to get his shit together.

    Did he really get high on his own product and think Brexit is the easiest thing in human history?
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 1,370
    edited December 6
    @TOPPING we have no dispute when it comes to Sauternes :wink:

    EDIT I dread to think how many Brexiteer points I lose by admitting that.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 3,966
    I thought the picture in the header was McDonnell, albeit a 4:3 version shown full-screen on a new telly.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,318
    RoyalBlue said:

    @TOPPING we have no dispute when it comes to Sauternes :wink:

    EDIT I dread to think how many Brexiteer points I lose by admitting that.

    Nyetimber sweet white (if there is one) doesn't cut it!!
    :smile:
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 17,988

    Mr. Jessop, an apt description which equally applies to the Roman battle tactics at Arausio.

    I must sadly admit that the battle at Arausio, yet alone the Roman tactics in it, have not yet formed part of my education. I'm unsure if this is a failing of mine, or of your comparison. ;)
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 1,370
    edited December 6
    TOPPING said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    @TOPPING we have no dispute when it comes to Sauternes :wink:

    EDIT I dread to think how many Brexiteer points I lose by admitting that.

    Nyetimber sweet white (if there is one) doesn't cut it!!
    :smile:
    Agreed. When McDonnell starts rationing hard currency, we can pool our coupons to get something better :wink:

    EDIT Actually Casino will have run away by then, so hopefully he can run the blockade to get us some good stuff. It's not like we'll have a Royal Navy left to stop him.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 39,452
    Mr. Eagles, so, your biggest problem with David Davis is his similarity to David Cameron? :p

    Mr. Jessop, to be fair, Arausio is not as well-known as it perhaps should be. It featured arguably the highest Roman death toll in any battle (Cannae was probably a little higher, but they were roughly equal).

    The two Roman generals disliked one another so much they completed refused to co-operate, which was, er, brave, given they significantly outnumbered by the Cimbri, who, at this stage, had already notched up a series of massive victories over the Romans.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,540
    I thought Cameron ran a crap Government, but this lot are beyond disastrous. Even Gordon Brown would have done a lot better.

    Bring on Corbyn, this won’t be worse, and might even be better.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 5,858

    Mr. Jessop, an apt description which equally applies to the Roman battle tactics at Arausio.

    I must sadly admit that the battle at Arausio, yet alone the Roman tactics in it, have not yet formed part of my education. I'm unsure if this is a failing of mine, or of your comparison. ;)
    Republican Rome, whilst generally fielding fine armies, were given to dropping the ball in spectacular fashion; Arausio being one of them. Up there with Cannae. Reportedly the reason for the massacre was that the two Roman commanders were at loggerheads.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 39,452
    King Cole, Brown reneging upon the Lisbon Treaty referendum was a significant milestone on the road to the EU referendum.

    Corbyn would be worse.
  • Mr. Eagles, so, your biggest problem with David Davis is his similarity to David Cameron? :p

    Mr. Jessop, to be fair, Arausio is not as well-known as it perhaps should be. It featured arguably the highest Roman death toll in any battle (Cannae was probably a little higher, but they were roughly equal).

    The two Roman generals disliked one another so much they completed refused to co-operate, which was, er, brave, given they significantly outnumbered by the Cimbri, who, at this stage, had already notched up a series of massive victories over the Romans.

    David Davis isn’t fit to lick the dogshit off Cameron’s shoes.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 39,452
    Mr. Eagles, if I've told you once I've told you a thousand times, we don't need to hear your private fantasies, man!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 15,422
    edited December 6
    Anyone reading the Daily Mail will see this image of the state of Brexit:

  • RobDRobD Posts: 30,411

    twitter.com/ThomasPride/status/938447540453863426

    A virtually insignificant loss to their budget? :smiley:
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 24,874

    I thought Cameron ran a crap Government, but this lot are beyond disastrous. Even Gordon Brown would have done a lot better.

    Bring on Corbyn, this won’t be worse, and might even be better.

    It is hard to imagine how Labour could do a worse job of Brexit than the Tories. Neither party has a position, of course, but Starmer v Davis is a no contest.

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 315
    Anorak said:

    The papers simply don't exist. The work has not been done, or has been utterly suppressed.

    There are far too many remainers and anti-Tories in the Civil Service for the documents not to have been leaked if they were bad for Brexit. If they'd shown Brexit was good, they'd have been published on gold-embossed vellum bound in otter-skin, sat on a velvet cushion and paraded down Whitehall with a military band playing Land of Hope and Glory.

    So is Davis misleading us now or when he agreed that the papers existed? Surely it has to be one or the other!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 30,411

    Anorak said:

    The papers simply don't exist. The work has not been done, or has been utterly suppressed.

    There are far too many remainers and anti-Tories in the Civil Service for the documents not to have been leaked if they were bad for Brexit. If they'd shown Brexit was good, they'd have been published on gold-embossed vellum bound in otter-skin, sat on a velvet cushion and paraded down Whitehall with a military band playing Land of Hope and Glory.

    So is Davis misleading us now or when he agreed that the papers existed? Surely it has to be one or the other!
    He said that he never used the words "impact assessment". That should be easy enough to check in Hansard.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 30,411
    edited December 6
    Here's that report . -- http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2017/595374/IPOL_STU(2017)595374_EN.pdf

    It looks like it is just a collation of previous studies by various bodies already in the public domain. I don't think that is any different from what DExEU have provided?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 315

    Mr. Eagles, if I've told you once I've told you a thousand times, we don't need to hear your private fantasies, man!

    I agree about the Davis fantasy, but I was taken by the one about (Meghan Markle being) 'taken up the aisle' a little down thread.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 8,776
    For fans of electoral foul ups, Labour have no lost control of Newcastle Under Lyme Borough Council. Haven't yet seen Electoral Commission's views on its GE failings.

    http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/news/stoke-on-trent-news/labour-administration-toppled-newcastle-borough-882394
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 36,073
    David Davis actually said the sectoral analyses do exist just not forecasts given previous Brexit forecasts by the civil service have proved largely inaccurate.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 1,123

    I thought Cameron ran a crap Government, but this lot are beyond disastrous. Even Gordon Brown would have done a lot better.

    Bring on Corbyn, this won’t be worse, and might even be better.

    It is hard to imagine how Labour could do a worse job of Brexit than the Tories. Neither party has a position, of course, but Starmer v Davis is a no contest.

    In the unlikely event of Labour coming to power in the next few months I think it would go for BINO - leave the EU political structure but remain in the single market & customs union.

    This might be dressed up as a "transitional" arrangement but in reality it would soon become permanent.
  • Mr. Eagles, if I've told you once I've told you a thousand times, we don't need to hear your private fantasies, man!

    I agree about the Davis fantasy, but I was taken by the one about (Meghan Markle being) 'taken up the aisle' a little down thread.
    You need to get your mind out of the gutter.

    You need to have a mind of high standards of moral hygiene like mine.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 315

    Mr. Eagles, if I've told you once I've told you a thousand times, we don't need to hear your private fantasies, man!

    I agree about the Davis fantasy, but I was taken by the one about (Meghan Markle being) 'taken up the aisle' a little down thread.
    You need to get your mind out of the gutter.

    You need to have a mind of high standards of moral hygiene like mine.
    I am quite content in the gutter, I rub shoulders with several other PB posters.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 3,937

    Mr. Eagles, if I've told you once I've told you a thousand times, we don't need to hear your private fantasies, man!

    I agree about the Davis fantasy, but I was taken by the one about (Meghan Markle being) 'taken up the aisle' a little down thread.
    You need to get your mind out of the gutter.

    You need to have a mind of high standards of moral hygiene like mine.
    But at a wedding it is the father of the bride who accompanies her up the aisle. Very puzzling, it's almost as if the phrase has some sort of double meaning.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 36,073

    I thought Cameron ran a crap Government, but this lot are beyond disastrous. Even Gordon Brown would have done a lot better.

    Bring on Corbyn, this won’t be worse, and might even be better.

    It is hard to imagine how Labour could do a worse job of Brexit than the Tories. Neither party has a position, of course, but Starmer v Davis is a no contest.

    In the unlikely event of Labour coming to power in the next few months I think it would go for BINO - leave the EU political structure but remain in the single market & customs union.

    This might be dressed up as a "transitional" arrangement but in reality it would soon become permanent.
    Then bang go half the Labour Leavers as free movement has to be left in place, Corbyn would never agree to that and sacrifice his chances of number 10
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 36,073

    Mr. Eagles, so, your biggest problem with David Davis is his similarity to David Cameron? :p

    Mr. Jessop, to be fair, Arausio is not as well-known as it perhaps should be. It featured arguably the highest Roman death toll in any battle (Cannae was probably a little higher, but they were roughly equal).

    The two Roman generals disliked one another so much they completed refused to co-operate, which was, er, brave, given they significantly outnumbered by the Cimbri, who, at this stage, had already notched up a series of massive victories over the Romans.

    David Davis isn’t fit to lick the dogshit off Cameron’s shoes.
    If Cameron had bothered to do a half decent negotiation we would not have had Brexit in the first place
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,339
    @bbclaurak: Hear Anna Soubry and Ken Clarke voting for Hermon amendment - govt might be in trouble on this one
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 36,073

    I thought Cameron ran a crap Government, but this lot are beyond disastrous. Even Gordon Brown would have done a lot better.

    Bring on Corbyn, this won’t be worse, and might even be better.

    It is hard to imagine how Labour could do a worse job of Brexit than the Tories. Neither party has a position, of course, but Starmer v Davis is a no contest.

    This the same clueless Starmer who wants to stay in the single market while his boss is still committed to leaving it?
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 5,371
    Did the dog eat them?
  • I thought Cameron ran a crap Government, but this lot are beyond disastrous. Even Gordon Brown would have done a lot better.

    Bring on Corbyn, this won’t be worse, and might even be better.

    Every degree of competence displayed by a Corbyn government would would make life worse.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 8,776
    For fans of David Davis, it was 12 years to the day that he became a runner up to David Cameron.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Party_(UK)_leadership_election,_2005
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 315
    HYUFD said:

    David Davis actually said the sectoral analyses do exist just not forecasts given previous Brexit forecasts by the civil service have proved largely inaccurate.

    With all due respect, without a conclusion what was their purpose? I can understand that forecasts are potentially inaccurate, but surely the direction of travel would be alluded to. Brexit will be a) fantastic b) a bit good c) no change d) a bit bad e) dire.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 36,073

    HYUFD said:

    David Davis actually said the sectoral analyses do exist just not forecasts given previous Brexit forecasts by the civil service have proved largely inaccurate.

    With all due respect, without a conclusion what was their purpose? I can understand that forecasts are potentially inaccurate, but surely the direction of travel would be alluded to. Brexit will be a) fantastic b) a bit good c) no change d) a bit bad e) dire.
    The direction of travel the Remain campaign was using to forecast by now we would be in an economic apocalypse over a year after Brexit?
  • BudGBudG Posts: 605
    HYUFD said:

    I thought Cameron ran a crap Government, but this lot are beyond disastrous. Even Gordon Brown would have done a lot better.

    Bring on Corbyn, this won’t be worse, and might even be better.

    It is hard to imagine how Labour could do a worse job of Brexit than the Tories. Neither party has a position, of course, but Starmer v Davis is a no contest.

    In the unlikely event of Labour coming to power in the next few months I think it would go for BINO - leave the EU political structure but remain in the single market & customs union.

    This might be dressed up as a "transitional" arrangement but in reality it would soon become permanent.
    Then bang go half the Labour Leavers as free movement has to be left in place, Corbyn would never agree to that and sacrifice his chances of number 10
    Errr.. if Labour came to power in the next few months, then Corbyn will already be in place at number 10. No sacrifice to be made.
  • Have the cabinet launched a "who can make the biggest cock-up" competition for their pre-Christmas meeting? Davis is in Panto. Sector analysis exists. Oh no it doesn't! Oh yes it does!

    With Davis doing all the voices.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 15,422
    At one point during Davis's evidence he started rambling on about how they no longer needed to do a detailed sectoral analysis of the automotive industry in order to assess how much weight to give to protecting it, because now it would all be negotiated under 'manufacturing'. Not exactly confidence inspiring...
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 5,371
    Isn't Gove supposed to be the intelligent one?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 36,073
    edited December 6
    BudG said:

    HYUFD said:

    I thought Cameron ran a crap Government, but this lot are beyond disastrous. Even Gordon Brown would have done a lot better.

    Bring on Corbyn, this won’t be worse, and might even be better.

    It is hard to imagine how Labour could do a worse job of Brexit than the Tories. Neither party has a position, of course, but Starmer v Davis is a no contest.

    In the unlikely event of Labour coming to power in the next few months I think it would go for BINO - leave the EU political structure but remain in the single market & customs union.

    This might be dressed up as a "transitional" arrangement but in reality it would soon become permanent.
    Then bang go half the Labour Leavers as free movement has to be left in place, Corbyn would never agree to that and sacrifice his chances of number 10
    Errr.. if Labour came to power in the next few months, then Corbyn will already be in place at number 10. No sacrifice to be made.
    He can only do that without a general election with DUP backing, otherwise it can only be after a general election where he has to produce a manifesto setting out Labour's plans on the single market and free movement. While if he forms a government without an election with the DUP and caves in on free movement the Tories would not believe their luck!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 30,411

    Isn't Gove supposed to be the intelligent one?
    I don’t think he was in Government at the time. ;)
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 6,127
    Scott_P said:

    @bbclaurak: Hear Anna Soubry and Ken Clarke voting for Hermon amendment - govt might be in trouble on this one

    They were the only two rebels before.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 25,390
    edited December 6

    Did the dog eat them?

    "My mum curried them!" - actual "lack of homework" excuse made by one of my classmates at school back in the late 1980s :)
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,339

    They were the only two rebels before.

    Not being pushed to a vote. Sigh of relief all round
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 293
    Scott_P said:
    Good luck reading half those signatures.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 25,390
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Mr. Eagles, if I've told you once I've told you a thousand times, we don't need to hear your private fantasies, man!

    I agree about the Davis fantasy, but I was taken by the one about (Meghan Markle being) 'taken up the aisle' a little down thread.
    You need to get your mind out of the gutter.

    You need to have a mind of high standards of moral hygiene like mine.
    But at a wedding it is the father of the bride who accompanies her up the aisle. Very puzzling, it's almost as if the phrase has some sort of double meaning.
    I blame the "American Pie" film franchise!
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 5,371

    Did the dog eat them?

    "My mum curried them!" - actual "lack of homework" excuse made by one of my classmates at school back in the late 1980s :)
    I'd pass that on to David Davis, you might get an MBE.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 8,776
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4891826/David-Cameron-thinks-David-Davis-Tory-leader.html

    Do you believe this boys and girls?

    Oh no we, don't.
    Oh yes we do.
  • There is no consensus in parliament or in the country on Brexit. Either a solution at one extreme or the other is imposed or occurs by default or a middle ground fudge is steered through that will satisfy nobody but a majority might come to regard as the best approach given the alternatives. Accept a point or go for all three points and risk getting nothing? This the dilemma for everyone. Stretching the football analogy TM is a bit of a Tony Pulis, unloved but necessary in some circumstances.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 39,452
    Mr. Capitano, my first GP had handwriting that was barely legible. It was also very difficult to make out what he was saying. And he was a grumpy sod.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 25,390

    Have the cabinet launched a "who can make the biggest cock-up" competition for their pre-Christmas meeting? Davis is in Panto. Sector analysis exists. Oh no it doesn't! Oh yes it does!

    With Davis doing all the voices.

    "He's behind you!"
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 24,874
    HYUFD said:

    I thought Cameron ran a crap Government, but this lot are beyond disastrous. Even Gordon Brown would have done a lot better.

    Bring on Corbyn, this won’t be worse, and might even be better.

    It is hard to imagine how Labour could do a worse job of Brexit than the Tories. Neither party has a position, of course, but Starmer v Davis is a no contest.

    This the same clueless Starmer who wants to stay in the single market while his boss is still committed to leaving it?

    As I said, neither Labour nor the Tories have a Brexit strategy or agreed destination. But unlike Davis, Starmer is prepared to do the hard yards and is not seeking to wing his way through.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 36,073
    dr_spyn said:
    Yes. Cameron will never ever ever forgive Boris and Gove for betraying him and he thinks JRM is mad and he knows the Tory membership will likely not vote for a Remainer so Davis is the least worst option.

    The two Davids actually got on quite well in the 2005 hustings although Cameron thought it was odd for Davis to leave the Shadow Cabinet to fight a one issue by election
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 25,390
    Sad to hear of TSE's plot against Theresa May :(
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 27,407
    Labour don't get away without criticism for having no clear strategy or direction on Brexit, but it is much more serious that the Tories appear to still have no bloody clue either.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 315
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    David Davis actually said the sectoral analyses do exist just not forecasts given previous Brexit forecasts by the civil service have proved largely inaccurate.

    With all due respect, without a conclusion what was their purpose? I can understand that forecasts are potentially inaccurate, but surely the direction of travel would be alluded to. Brexit will be a) fantastic b) a bit good c) no change d) a bit bad e) dire.
    The direction of travel the Remain campaign was using to forecast by now we would be in an economic apocalypse over a year after Brexit?
    ...and we lost because the argument you allude to was spurious. Davis is now (and has for 18 months) and has been tasked with a seamless Brexit so he should have some evidence to suggest what sort of Brexit damages each industry sector least. With all that intelligence he proposes best-outcome Brexit.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 8,776
    Scott_P said:
    Not a surprise coming from Farron, but if Tories start saying the same thing, then things would be more interesting.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 36,073
    edited December 6

    HYUFD said:

    I thought Cameron ran a crap Government, but this lot are beyond disastrous. Even Gordon Brown would have done a lot better.

    Bring on Corbyn, this won’t be worse, and might even be better.

    It is hard to imagine how Labour could do a worse job of Brexit than the Tories. Neither party has a position, of course, but Starmer v Davis is a no contest.

    This the same clueless Starmer who wants to stay in the single market while his boss is still committed to leaving it?

    As I said, neither Labour nor the Tories have a Brexit strategy or agreed destination. But unlike Davis, Starmer is prepared to do the hard yards and is not seeking to wing his way through.
    Prepared. Ha Ha Ha Ha. Starmer cannot even get out of bed in the morning without changing Labour's line on Brexit

    The May and Davis line is clear, a FTA that ends free movement
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,386
    edited December 6

    HYUFD said:

    I thought Cameron ran a crap Government, but this lot are beyond disastrous. Even Gordon Brown would have done a lot better.

    Bring on Corbyn, this won’t be worse, and might even be better.

    It is hard to imagine how Labour could do a worse job of Brexit than the Tories. Neither party has a position, of course, but Starmer v Davis is a no contest.

    This the same clueless Starmer who wants to stay in the single market while his boss is still committed to leaving it?

    As I said, neither Labour nor the Tories have a Brexit strategy or agreed destination. But unlike Davis, Starmer is prepared to do the hard yards and is not seeking to wing his way through.
    Yes he is. He has said on numerous occasions that we should stay in the Single Market but also be able to control immigration. That is Ignorance 101.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 36,073

    Sad to hear of TSE's plot against Theresa May :(

    Have you been on Mars the last year Sunil?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 39,452
    Mr. Tyndall, not necessarily. It could be Deceit 101.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 25,390
    HYUFD said:

    Sad to hear of TSE's plot against Theresa May :(

    Have you been on Mars the last year Sunil?
    Well, I knew one of the suspects was a British Pakistani....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 36,073

    HYUFD said:

    I thought Cameron ran a crap Government, but this lot are beyond disastrous. Even Gordon Brown would have done a lot better.

    Bring on Corbyn, this won’t be worse, and might even be better.

    It is hard to imagine how Labour could do a worse job of Brexit than the Tories. Neither party has a position, of course, but Starmer v Davis is a no contest.

    This the same clueless Starmer who wants to stay in the single market while his boss is still committed to leaving it?

    As I said, neither Labour nor the Tories have a Brexit strategy or agreed destination. But unlike Davis, Starmer is prepared to do the hard yards and is not seeking to wing his way through.
    Yes he is. He has said on numerous occasions that we should stay in the Single Market but also be able to control immigration. That is Ignorance 101.
    As just an hour with Monsieurs Juncker and Barnier would confirm
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 17,768
    Laying the favourite rarely fails you in next Conservative leader contests.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 39,452
    Mr. Meeks, would've worked nicely for the last two Labour contests too, and pretty well for the Lib Dem one (laying Swinson, think she was 1.4 or so at one point).
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 12,009

    Laying the favourite rarely fails you in next Conservative leader contests.

    Rarely fails you in almost any leadership contest it seems, but would have left you badly burnt in the 2016 Primaries for both parties.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 7,105
    dr_spyn said:

    For fans of electoral foul ups, Labour have no lost control of Newcastle Under Lyme Borough Council. Haven't yet seen Electoral Commission's views on its GE failings.

    http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/news/stoke-on-trent-news/labour-administration-toppled-newcastle-borough-882394

    A couple of competitive by-elections there next Thursday too; could be interesting.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 8,494

    HYUFD said:

    I thought Cameron ran a crap Government, but this lot are beyond disastrous. Even Gordon Brown would have done a lot better.

    Bring on Corbyn, this won’t be worse, and might even be better.

    It is hard to imagine how Labour could do a worse job of Brexit than the Tories. Neither party has a position, of course, but Starmer v Davis is a no contest.

    This the same clueless Starmer who wants to stay in the single market while his boss is still committed to leaving it?

    As I said, neither Labour nor the Tories have a Brexit strategy or agreed destination. But unlike Davis, Starmer is prepared to do the hard yards and is not seeking to wing his way through.
    The hard yards of not running a government department, and of not negotiating with the EU.

    You're stuck in one of your catchy phrase groves again. The hyperbole in no way matches the reality.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 59,709
    edited December 6

    Laying the favourite rarely fails you in next Conservative leader contests.

    Assuming David Davis isn't the next Tory leader it will be an unwelcome hat-trick for David Davis.

    He would have been favourite for four consecutive Tory leadership contests, and lost every time.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 8,494

    Laying the favourite rarely fails you in next Conservative leader contests.

    Assuming David Davis isn't the next Tory leader it will be an unwelcome hat-trick for David Davis.

    He would have been favourite for three consecutive Tory leadership contests, and lost every time.
    He didn't run in 2016....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 36,073

    Laying the favourite rarely fails you in next Conservative leader contests.

    Assuming David Davis isn't the next Tory leader it will be an unwelcome hat-trick for David Davis.

    He would have been favourite for four consecutive Tory leadership contests, and lost every time.
    Davis isn't favourite anymore, the current favourite is Jacob Rees Mogg
    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/politics/event/28051208/market?marketId=1.125574963
  • Mortimer said:

    Laying the favourite rarely fails you in next Conservative leader contests.

    Assuming David Davis isn't the next Tory leader it will be an unwelcome hat-trick for David Davis.

    He would have been favourite for three consecutive Tory leadership contests, and lost every time.
    He didn't run in 2016....
    I know, but be he was favourite to succeed Cameron at various points, most notably in 2007.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 8,494
    I predicted that the Govt would win all the amendments divisions. He who doesn't have the votes makes the most noise...
  • HYUFD said:

    Laying the favourite rarely fails you in next Conservative leader contests.

    Assuming David Davis isn't the next Tory leader it will be an unwelcome hat-trick for David Davis.

    He would have been favourite for four consecutive Tory leadership contests, and lost every time.
    Davis isn't favourite anymore, the current favourite is Jacob Rees Mogg
    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/politics/event/28051208/market?marketId=1.125574963
    But he's been favourite at various times in the race to succeed Mrs May.
  • Actually thinking about it, was David Davis ever the favourite for 2001 contest?
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 4,376
    SNP amendment defeated 296-316.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 36,073

    Actually thinking about it, was David Davis ever the favourite for 2001 contest?

    No that was Portillo
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 36,073
    edited December 6

    HYUFD said:

    Laying the favourite rarely fails you in next Conservative leader contests.

    Assuming David Davis isn't the next Tory leader it will be an unwelcome hat-trick for David Davis.

    He would have been favourite for four consecutive Tory leadership contests, and lost every time.
    Davis isn't favourite anymore, the current favourite is Jacob Rees Mogg
    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/politics/event/28051208/market?marketId=1.125574963
    But he's been favourite at various times in the race to succeed Mrs May.
    So has Boris, now it is Mogg, Leadsom second favourite with Betfair
This discussion has been closed.