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SystemSystem Posts: 3,967
edited December 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The latest Brexit negotiations cartoon

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  • Is that meant to be funny?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 26,228
    edited December 2017


    Edit - and Second like REMAIN, Labour & Yes......
  • Is that meant to be funny?

    I suspect its not going to age well......
  • FPT:

    One of the lasting images of election night this year was George Osborne in the ITV studios. As the exit poll was announced, his face first turned to shock and then to undisguised pleasure as he pronounced Theresa May a “dead woman walking”. The longer the night went on, the more jubilant he became. By the time the last few results came in, the former chancellor and now editor of the Evening Standard – among half a dozen other well-paid jobs – was all but standing on the table in the studio shouting “loser, loser” at the prime minister’s tear-stained face on the TV monitor.

    The smile has barely left his face since. George is a man hell-bent on squeezing every bit of enjoyment out of his revenge. Scarcely a day goes by in the pages of his newspaper without him putting the boot into the woman who sacked him.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/07/gentle-george-struggles-to-keep-his-killer-instincts-in-check?CMP=twt_gu
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 18,207
    What is it about Remainers who are determined to present this as a whitewash for the EU?

    May hasn't got everything she wanted, but the EU has compromised as well.

    Bit like every negotiation really.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 9,830
    A deal has clearly been reached (pause to say I Told You So). I wonder what it will do for May's standing? The tortuous process and peculiar Government non-preparaions must have filtered through even to people not very interested in politics, but progress is progress. Does May get credit for battling through, or blame for making it so painful? The obvious question is whether the more difficult phase 2 will also reach a deal, but that's for the future.
  • Charles said:

    What is it about Remainers who are determined to present this as a whitewash for the EU?

    As their 'Brexit will never happen' dream fades (Patron Saint Gina Miller) they need to keep up the 'Brexit will be a disaster' narrative (which failed so spectacularly in the referendum) in the hope that somehow Brexit may be averted......despite the polling showing that the Great British voter has supreme confidence in his own wisdom, but is much less convinced of that of politicians on either side of the Channel.....who will be blamed for any failure, the decision itself being sound...
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,873
    @juliamacfarlane: @dinosofos @bbclaurak @PaulTwinn So Brexit really does mean breakfast
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 15,515

    Charles said:

    What is it about Remainers who are determined to present this as a whitewash for the EU?

    As their 'Brexit will never happen' dream fades (Patron Saint Gina Miller) they need to keep up the 'Brexit will be a disaster' narrative (which failed so spectacularly in the referendum) in the hope that somehow Brexit may be averted......despite the polling showing that the Great British voter has supreme confidence in his own wisdom, but is much less convinced of that of politicians on either side of the Channel.....who will be blamed for any failure, the decision itself being sound...
    Correct.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,873
    @mattholehouse: STORY: ECJ to have role in monitoring citizens' rights for eight years.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 25,271
    edited December 2017
    Charles said:

    What is it about Remainers who are determined to present this as a whitewash for the EU?

    May hasn't got everything she wanted, but the EU has compromised as well.

    Bit like every negotiation really.

    The EU have got the money guarantees they wanted, the citizens’ rights guarantees they wanted and the guarantees on the Irish border they wanted. That’s why we are heading to Phase 2. It’s very good news. No Deal is just about dead. Mrs May has done well to accept that and if she and the Brexiteers wish to spin it as a victory, why not? The most important thing is that we are going to avoid the cliff edge.

  • PB is a great resource. I'm not a gambler but find it my first port of call for news and opinions. Unfortunately, the past few days have not been amongst PB's finest. You've all been gripped, leavers and remainers alike, with some sort of mass hysteria. Everyone has turned into an armchair Prime Minister and seems to have a direct line to the EU or Number 10. Roger was actively hoping for a recession to starve all leavers into submission, for feck's sake! Please calm down!
  • Will be fascinating to see where the compromise has been made considering the impossibility of both no hard border in Ireland and no red line in the Irish SEA if we leave the Single Market and Customs Union.

    Starmer has always talked about A customs union not THE Customs Union. I wonder if the same stunt has been pulled? May can claim success in leaving the original SM and CU by creating a new one that's identical to the old ones
  • Scott_P said:
    Great news!!! Softly, softly. May has played a blinder. Good on her.

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 16,241

    Charles said:

    What is it about Remainers who are determined to present this as a whitewash for the EU?

    May hasn't got everything she wanted, but the EU has compromised as well.

    Bit like every negotiation really.

    The EU have got the money guarantees they wanted, the citizens’ rights guarantees they wanted and the guarantees on the Irish border they wanted. That’s why we are heading to Phase 2. It’s very good news. No Deal is just about dead. Mrs May has done well to accept that and if she and the Brexiteers wish to spin it as a victory, why not? The most important thing is that we are going to avoid the cliff edge.

    we;re heading for soft brexit

    the last year of ramping and shouting has just been a waste of time

    now we head in to the next year of ramping and shouting which will also be a waste of time
  • Will be fascinating to see where the compromise has been made considering the impossibility of both no hard border in Ireland and no red line in the Irish SEA if we leave the Single Market and Customs Union.

    Starmer has always talked about A customs union not THE Customs Union. I wonder if the same stunt has been pulled? May can claim success in leaving the original SM and CU by creating a new one that's identical to the old ones

    That looks to be precisely what we are going to get. And that is very good news.

  • Scott_P said:
    So we're "leaving". Thank God for that. Being outside the Single Market and Customs Union but replicating all details of both so that we are effectively still in. Trade continues, the economy survives. Fox and his loons will go absolutely apeshit.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 42,097
    Good day to be a Belfast warehouse owner.
  • And they called David Cameron the essay crisis Prime Minister. On first reading, that looks like an elegant solution. I wonder whether the hard Brexiters realise how much has been conceded.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 15,515
    Looks like we have something approaching a deal. Fingers crossed!
  • One bit that's curiously being left out of all these 'Irish border' tweets:

    The United Kingdom also recalls its commitment to preserving the integrity of its internal market and Northern Ireland's place within it, as the United Kingdom leaves the European Union's Internal Market and Customs Union.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 16,241

    And they called David Cameron the essay crisis Prime Minister. On first reading, that looks like an elegant solution. I wonder whether the hard Brexiters realise how much has been conceded.

    for me the most noticeable thing in the announcements was the toning down of rhetoric

    PB could learn from it
  • Excellent news.

    My only concern, how does she get approval of the 8 year CJEU role from the likes of JRM and the other Leadbangers?
  • Scott_P said:

    @mattholehouse: STORY: ECJ to have role in monitoring citizens' rights for eight years.

    Cases brought within eight years. So that means the ECJ could be hearing cases into the 2030s. The key point is that citizens’ rights in the UK will be enshrined in the UK legislation implementing the overall Treaty that is finally agreed, so the only way they can be changed is for the entire Treaty legislation to be repealed. Bottom line: EU citizens in the UK will continue to have more rights in certain areas than UK citizens!

  • Wonder if the market had 'priced in' a 'last minute breakthrough'.....

  • Sandpit said:

    Looks like we have something approaching a deal. Fingers crossed!

    You can read it here:

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/joint_report.pdf
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 15,410
    Scott_P said:
    "Fix later" - that no-one will quite find the urgency to fix.

    As predicted.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 16,241

    Excellent news.

    My only concern, how does she get approval of the 8 year CJEU role from the likes of JRM and the other Leadbangers?

    maybe she;s just going to ignore the Tory civil was you seem so intent on pursuing
  • Just don't tell the Tae (sod it, I'm not looking it up again) Irish PM.....

  • Charles said:

    What is it about Remainers who are determined to present this as a whitewash for the EU?

    May hasn't got everything she wanted, but the EU has compromised as well.

    Bit like every negotiation really.

    The EU have got the money guarantees they wanted, the citizens’ rights guarantees they wanted and the guarantees on the Irish border they wanted. That’s why we are heading to Phase 2. It’s very good news. No Deal is just about dead. Mrs May has done well to accept that and if she and the Brexiteers wish to spin it as a victory, why not? The most important thing is that we are going to avoid the cliff edge.

    we;re heading for soft brexit

    the last year of ramping and shouting has just been a waste of time

    now we head in to the next year of ramping and shouting which will also be a waste of time

    Yep - it’s out, but in. May really was a Remainer all this time! This is an exceptionally good day. Hats off to the PM. Not sure how the loons on the Tory right will react. But so what!!

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,628

    PB is a great resource. I'm not a gambler but find it my first port of call for news and opinions. Unfortunately, the past few days have not been amongst PB's finest. You've all been gripped, leavers and remainers alike, with some sort of mass hysteria. Everyone has turned into an armchair Prime Minister and seems to have a direct line to the EU or Number 10. Roger was actively hoping for a recession to starve all leavers into submission, for feck's sake! Please calm down!

    Calm down???

    It was the quote button for heaven's sake
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 15,410

    Excellent news.

    My only concern, how does she get approval of the 8 year CJEU role from the likes of JRM and the other Leadbangers?

    maybe she;s just going to ignore the Tory civil was you seem so intent on pursuing
    One Man Army......
  • Charles said:

    What is it about Remainers who are determined to present this as a whitewash for the EU?

    May hasn't got everything she wanted, but the EU has compromised as well.

    Bit like every negotiation really.

    The EU have got the money guarantees they wanted, the citizens’ rights guarantees they wanted and the guarantees on the Irish border they wanted. That’s why we are heading to Phase 2. It’s very good news. No Deal is just about dead. Mrs May has done well to accept that and if she and the Brexiteers wish to spin it as a victory, why not? The most important thing is that we are going to avoid the cliff edge.

    +1. I’m pretty happy about this news and I’m apparently one of the evil Remainers whose supposed saint is Gina Miller.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 16,241

    Just don't tell the Tae (sod it, I'm not looking it up again) Irish PM.....

    theyve written the role of Stormont into the deal

    it;s either a clever wheeze to force the lazy buggers back to work ot theyve recognised they can string this out for years
  • Scott_P said:
    "Fix later" - that no-one will quite find the urgency to fix.

    As predicted.

    Hmmm - the next sentences look more important.

  • Scott_P said:

    @mattholehouse: STORY: ECJ to have role in monitoring citizens' rights for eight years.

    Cases brought within eight years. So that means the ECJ could be hearing cases into the 2030s. The key point is that citizens’ rights in the UK will be enshrined in the UK legislation implementing the overall Treaty that is finally agreed, so the only way they can be changed is for the entire Treaty legislation to be repealed. Bottom line: EU citizens in the UK will continue to have more rights in certain areas than UK citizens!

    Scott_P said:

    @mattholehouse: STORY: ECJ to have role in monitoring citizens' rights for eight years.

    Cases brought within eight years. So that means the ECJ could be hearing cases into the 2030s. The key point is that citizens’ rights in the UK will be enshrined in the UK legislation implementing the overall Treaty that is finally agreed, so the only way they can be changed is for the entire Treaty legislation to be repealed. Bottom line: EU citizens in the UK will continue to have more rights in certain areas than UK citizens!

    Complete text:

    This Part of the Agreement establishes rights for citizens following on from those established in Union law during the UK’s membership of the European Union; the CJEU is the ultimate arbiter of the interpretation of Union law. In the context of the application or interpretation of those rights, UK courts shall therefore have due regard to relevant decisions of the CJEU after the specified date4. The Agreement should also establish a mechanism enabling UK courts or tribunals to decide, having had due regard to whether relevant case-law exists, to ask the CJEU questions of interpretation of those rights where they consider that a CJEU ruling on the question is necessary for the UK court or tribunal to be able to give judgment in a case before it. This mechanism should be available for UK courts or tribunals for litigation brought within 8 years from the date of application of the citizens' rights Part.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 15,410

    Scott_P said:
    "Fix later" - that no-one will quite find the urgency to fix.

    As predicted.

    Hmmm - the next sentences look more important.

    Any deal on Ireland's border was always going to require a lorry-load of fudge.

    Schrodinger's Fudge at that.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 42,097
    Looks like the UK and EU will be very convergent through to 2020, with potential full divergence after 2026.
    So initially a soft Brexit, but the endgame looks like a complete split to me in the long term.
  • Also, if the Tory right don’t like this deal they can go and do one. It won’t be the JRMs of the world that will have to deal with the consequences of no deal.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 3,088
    edited December 2017

    Excellent news.

    My only concern, how does she get approval of the 8 year CJEU role from the likes of JRM and the other Leadbangers?

    Dunno about them, but a reasonable time limited compromise is fine with me. Then everyone here lives under the same rules in front of the law. Ours.

    I can wait 8 years for that.
  • Scott_P said:

    @mattholehouse: STORY: ECJ to have role in monitoring citizens' rights for eight years.

    Cases brought within eight years. So that means the ECJ could be hearing cases into the 2030s. The key point is that citizens’ rights in the UK will be enshrined in the UK legislation implementing the overall Treaty that is finally agreed, so the only way they can be changed is for the entire Treaty legislation to be repealed. Bottom line: EU citizens in the UK will continue to have more rights in certain areas than UK citizens!

    Scott_P said:

    @mattholehouse: STORY: ECJ to have role in monitoring citizens' rights for eight years.

    Cases brought within eight years. So that means the ECJ could be hearing cases into the 2030s. The key point is that citizens’ rights in the UK will be enshrined in the UK legislation implementing the overall Treaty that is finally agreed, so the only way they can be changed is for the entire Treaty legislation to be repealed. Bottom line: EU citizens in the UK will continue to have more rights in certain areas than UK citizens!

    Complete text:

    This Part of the Agreement establishes rights for citizens following on from those established in Union law during the UK’s membership of the European Union; the CJEU is the ultimate arbiter of the interpretation of Union law. In the context of the application or interpretation of those rights, UK courts shall therefore have due regard to relevant decisions of the CJEU after the specified date4. The Agreement should also establish a mechanism enabling UK courts or tribunals to decide, having had due regard to whether relevant case-law exists, to ask the CJEU questions of interpretation of those rights where they consider that a CJEU ruling on the question is necessary for the UK court or tribunal to be able to give judgment in a case before it. This mechanism should be available for UK courts or tribunals for litigation brought within 8 years from the date of application of the citizens' rights Part.

    Yep, so a case brought in Year 8 in the UK will go through first instance, appeal and Supreme Court, and can then go to the ECJ. That’s a long process.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 19,519
    So, was Monday's breakdown real, or all part of an elaborate dance?
  • So. We have a solution to how we leave the EU, Single Market and Customs Union without the economy ending event of leaving the Single Market and Customs Union.

    So we are "leaving". Not formally a member. But maintaining "full alignment with the rules" of the Single Market and Customs Union. Rules like no external trade deals. Rules like free movement.

    Once the EUphoria (see what I did there...) dies away, expect a choice of two options.
    1. The nutters point to the fact that we aren't leaving anything in practice, have bent over on every red line and have achieved nothing and say "this is bollocks". May can't carry the deal in her own party and is replaced by Moggmentum
    2. Everyone rallies round to insist that black really is white and that by not ending free movement we have ended free movement. Until in 2022 the voters turn around and say "this is bollocks" and once again vote for a 3rd time lucky Farage led UKIP in their millions
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 15,410

    Also, if the Tory right don’t like this deal they can go and do one. It won’t be the JRMs of the world that will have to deal with the consequences of no deal.

    The JRMs and the Leadsom's will say that they played their role, helping keep the EU's heavy roller in the shed, whilst a somewhat uncertain OK-but-less-than-perfect deal could be negotiated - under their threat of WTO walkaway if the negotiators screwed up.

    Ask yourself this - is Boris-of-the-two-Essays disappointed about this deal? I'd say far from it....
  • Scott_P said:
    "Fix later" - that no-one will quite find the urgency to fix.

    As predicted.

    Hmmm - the next sentences look more important.

    Any deal on Ireland's border was always going to require a lorry-load of fudge.

    Schrodinger's Fudge at that.

    If the EU rejects the UK’s solutions, regulatory alignment will apply across the UK. So, either we come up with something the EU approves or we align our regulatory regime in a number of key areas with the EU.

    Bye, bye chlorinated chicken!

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 16,241
    Sean_F said:

    So, was Monday's breakdown real, or all part of an elaborate dance?

    probably our equivalent of the Wallonian parliament holding things up
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 2,629
    Wise of Jeremy Corbyn to distance himself from this.
  • In more important news.

    The Batman director likely to recast Ben Affleck, but it may not be the end for Batfleck

    http://www.digitalspy.com/movies/batman/news/a844921/the-batman-director-recasting-ben-affleck-staying-for-flashpoint/
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 8,727
    edited December 2017
    What a fantastic morning to be a PBer.

    We're all leavers now.

    Etc etc.

    Well done Mrs May.
  • Sean_F said:

    So, was Monday's breakdown real, or all part of an elaborate dance?

    I can’t see David Davis being that clever.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 19,519

    So. We have a solution to how we leave the EU, Single Market and Customs Union without the economy ending event of leaving the Single Market and Customs Union.

    So we are "leaving". Not formally a member. But maintaining "full alignment with the rules" of the Single Market and Customs Union. Rules like no external trade deals. Rules like free movement.

    Once the EUphoria (see what I did there...) dies away, expect a choice of two options.
    1. The nutters point to the fact that we aren't leaving anything in practice, have bent over on every red line and have achieved nothing and say "this is bollocks". May can't carry the deal in her own party and is replaced by Moggmentum
    2. Everyone rallies round to insist that black really is white and that by not ending free movement we have ended free movement. Until in 2022 the voters turn around and say "this is bollocks" and once again vote for a 3rd time lucky Farage led UKIP in their millions

    I thought that was pretty much the arrangement you wanted.
  • Mortimer said:

    What a fanatic morning to be a PBer.

    We're all leavers now.

    Etc etc.

    Well done Mrs May.

    Not a typo and incorrect on the final point. The moral disaster lurches on.


  • Yep, so a case brought in Year 8 in the UK will go through first instance, appeal and Supreme Court, and can then go to the ECJ. That’s a long process.

    About two cases a year:

    The UK courts have not asked the ECJ for help very often, compared with other member states

    Negotiators are still locked in a stalemate over the role of the ECJ in enforcing citizens’ rights after Brexit. One point of clash is what the withdrawal agreement, the future partnership agreement and UK law should say about how the UK courts are to regard post-Brexit ECJ case law. Another is whether the UK Supreme Court should be obliged to refer questions of EU law on citizens’ rights to the ECJ after Brexit, as it is now.

    Negotiators on both sides should be aware that the UK courts have not made references to the ECJ particularly often in recent years. The number of references from UK courts is average compared with other member states’. Around two references a year concern citizens’ rights.


    https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/IfG_Brexit_ECJ_v10FINAL web.pdf
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 61,059
    edited December 2017
    Mortimer said:

    What a fanatic morning to be a PBer.

    We're all leavers now.

    Etc etc.

    Well done Mrs May.

    Fanatic? Lol, what an awesome Freudian slip.
  • Mortimer said:

    What a fanatic morning to be a PBer.

    We're all leavers now.

    Etc etc.

    Well done Mrs May.

    Yep, she’s played a blinder. It’s taken her a fair few months, but she’s managed to convince Leavers they’ve won a great victory by agreeing to all the EU’s red lines. We’re leaving in name only. Rejoice!!!

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 15,410

    In more important news.

    The Batman director likely to recast Ben Affleck, but it may not be the end for Batfleck

    http://www.digitalspy.com/movies/batman/news/a844921/the-batman-director-recasting-ben-affleck-staying-for-flashpoint/

    "Flashpoint is a wibbly wobbly, timey wimey adventure centred around Barry Allen accidentally messing up the DC Universe timeline, to the point where Wonder Woman and Aquaman become arch enemies, and Batman is actually Bruce Wayne's father Thomas."

    Jeez...just stop. Enough. Radical idea: go get some new ideas, Hollywood.

    If automobile production was left to these guys, we'd have the 18-wheel family hatchback. Because someone thought it was a cool idea....
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Charles said:

    What is it about Remainers who are determined to present this as a whitewash for the EU?

    May hasn't got everything she wanted, but the EU has compromised as well.

    Bit like every negotiation really.

    The EU have got the money guarantees they wanted, the citizens’ rights guarantees they wanted and the guarantees on the Irish border they wanted. That’s why we are heading to Phase 2. It’s very good news. No Deal is just about dead. Mrs May has done well to accept that and if she and the Brexiteers wish to spin it as a victory, why not? The most important thing is that we are going to avoid the cliff edge.

    we;re heading for soft brexit

    the last year of ramping and shouting has just been a waste of time

    now we head in to the next year of ramping and shouting which will also be a waste of time

    Yep - it’s out, but in. May really was a Remainer all this time! This is an exceptionally good day. Hats off to the PM. Not sure how the loons on the Tory right will react. But so what!!

    I have to say she has dealt this well. Softest Brexit at the moment. Now let's do a trade deal that takes years to implement.

    If head-banging Brexiteers accept 8 years or more of ECJ jurisdiction, they will accept "gradual" Brexit taken over 15 years.

    Everyone wins except JRM and co. Who the **** cares about them ?
  • Sean_F said:

    So. We have a solution to how we leave the EU, Single Market and Customs Union without the economy ending event of leaving the Single Market and Customs Union.

    So we are "leaving". Not formally a member. But maintaining "full alignment with the rules" of the Single Market and Customs Union. Rules like no external trade deals. Rules like free movement.

    Once the EUphoria (see what I did there...) dies away, expect a choice of two options.
    1. The nutters point to the fact that we aren't leaving anything in practice, have bent over on every red line and have achieved nothing and say "this is bollocks". May can't carry the deal in her own party and is replaced by Moggmentum
    2. Everyone rallies round to insist that black really is white and that by not ending free movement we have ended free movement. Until in 2022 the voters turn around and say "this is bollocks" and once again vote for a 3rd time lucky Farage led UKIP in their millions

    I thought that was pretty much the arrangement you wanted.
    It is. I'm very happy for the country. As someone who negotiates for a living I remain greatly amused by our absolute capitulation on every one of our red lines. But you have to admit it will be fascinating to see the response from the Tories who allegedly were backed up by millions of foaming dog fever Brexiteers. Apparently if we don't end free movement it's betrayal.

    We haven't ended free movement.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 15,410

    Wise of Jeremy Corbyn to distance himself from this.

    What, hard-nosed real politik? Well, if you say so....
  • In more important news.

    The Batman director likely to recast Ben Affleck, but it may not be the end for Batfleck

    http://www.digitalspy.com/movies/batman/news/a844921/the-batman-director-recasting-ben-affleck-staying-for-flashpoint/

    "Flashpoint is a wibbly wobbly, timey wimey adventure centred around Barry Allen accidentally messing up the DC Universe timeline, to the point where Wonder Woman and Aquaman become arch enemies, and Batman is actually Bruce Wayne's father Thomas."

    Jeez...just stop. Enough. Radical idea: go get some new ideas, Hollywood.

    If automobile production was left to these guys, we'd have the 18-wheel family hatchback. Because someone thought it was a cool idea....
    Flashpoint is one of my favourite stories, they covered it well on the tv show.
  • Sean_F said:

    So, was Monday's breakdown real, or all part of an elaborate dance?

    I suspect it was real. Quite possibly the UK government didn't (wasn't allowed to?) consult with the DUP enough - but what put the tin lid on it was the leaks to the Irish media - which convinced the DUP they were being steamrollered. Inexperienced Irish PM tried to go over the heads of NI.....
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 16,241
    edited December 2017
    surbiton said:

    Charles said:

    What is it about Remainers who are determined to present this as a whitewash for the EU?

    May hasn't got everything she wanted, but the EU has compromised as well.

    Bit like every negotiation really.

    The EU have got the money guarantees they wanted, the citizens’ rights guarantees they wanted and the guarantees on the Irish border they wanted. That’s why we are heading to Phase 2. It’s very good news. No Deal is just about dead. Mrs May has done well to accept that and if she and the Brexiteers wish to spin it as a victory, why not? The most important thing is that we are going to avoid the cliff edge.

    we;re heading for soft brexit

    the last year of ramping and shouting has just been a waste of time

    now we head in to the next year of ramping and shouting which will also be a waste of time

    Yep - it’s out, but in. May really was a Remainer all this time! This is an exceptionally good day. Hats off to the PM. Not sure how the loons on the Tory right will react. But so what!!

    I have to say she has dealt this well. Softest Brexit at the moment. Now let's do a trade deal that takes years to implement.

    If head-banging Brexiteers accept 8 years or more of ECJ jurisdiction, they will accept "gradual" Brexit taken over 15 years.

    Everyone wins except JRM and co. Who the **** cares about them ?
    you clearly do

    youve been posting about them for most of the last year
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 8,727
    edited December 2017

    Mortimer said:

    What a fanatic morning to be a PBer.

    We're all leavers now.

    Etc etc.

    Well done Mrs May.

    Yep, she’s played a blinder. It’s taken her a fair few months, but she’s managed to convince Leavers they’ve won a great victory by agreeing to all the EU’s red lines. We’re leaving in name only. Rejoice!!!

    Bloody autocorrect.

    Oh good - quote button working again!


  • Yep, so a case brought in Year 8 in the UK will go through first instance, appeal and Supreme Court, and can then go to the ECJ. That’s a long process.

    About two cases a year:

    The UK courts have not asked the ECJ for help very often, compared with other member states

    Negotiators are still locked in a stalemate over the role of the ECJ in enforcing citizens’ rights after Brexit. One point of clash is what the withdrawal agreement, the future partnership agreement and UK law should say about how the UK courts are to regard post-Brexit ECJ case law. Another is whether the UK Supreme Court should be obliged to refer questions of EU law on citizens’ rights to the ECJ after Brexit, as it is now.

    Negotiators on both sides should be aware that the UK courts have not made references to the ECJ particularly often in recent years. The number of references from UK courts is average compared with other member states’. Around two references a year concern citizens’ rights.


    https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/IfG_Brexit_ECJ_v10FINAL web.pdf

    Yep - the ECJ red line was always ridiculous.

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 16,241

    Sean_F said:

    So, was Monday's breakdown real, or all part of an elaborate dance?

    I suspect it was real. Quite possibly the UK government didn't (wasn't allowed to?) consult with the DUP enough - but what put the tin lid on it was the leaks to the Irish media - which convinced the DUP they were being steamrollered. Inexperienced Irish PM tried to go over the heads of NI.....
    that's just about the key paranoia button for the DUP
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 15,515
    Pulpstar said:

    Looks like the UK and EU will be very convergent through to 2020, with potential full divergence after 2026.
    So initially a soft Brexit, but the endgame looks like a complete split to me in the long term.

    Which is what the free-market Brexit supporters (Dan Hannan et al) have always suggested, that Brexit is a process rather than an event.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Scott_P said:
    "Fix later" - that no-one will quite find the urgency to fix.

    As predicted.

    Hmmm - the next sentences look more important.

    Any deal on Ireland's border was always going to require a lorry-load of fudge.

    Schrodinger's Fudge at that.

    If the EU rejects the UK’s solutions, regulatory alignment will apply across the UK. So, either we come up with something the EU approves or we align our regulatory regime in a number of key areas with the EU.

    Bye, bye chlorinated chicken!

    Maybe, the DUP nutters have helped us all, after all by insisting that regulatory alignment will apply across the UK.

    Looks like Single Market and Customs Union without being in the Single Market and Customs Union .
  • ‪Well if he’s not happy then I’m chuffed to buggery. ‬

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 18,207

    Charles said:

    What is it about Remainers who are determined to present this as a whitewash for the EU?

    May hasn't got everything she wanted, but the EU has compromised as well.

    Bit like every negotiation really.

    The EU have got the money guarantees they wanted, the citizens’ rights guarantees they wanted and the guarantees on the Irish border they wanted. That’s why we are heading to Phase 2. It’s very good news. No Deal is just about dead. Mrs May has done well to accept that and if she and the Brexiteers wish to spin it as a victory, why not? The most important thing is that we are going to avoid the cliff edge.

    You don't know that.

    The EU have got less than was publicly asked for (which may not be what they wanted).

    They are willing to accept what they have got (which may not be what they wanted).

    The same goes for the EU.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 15,410

    In more important news.

    The Batman director likely to recast Ben Affleck, but it may not be the end for Batfleck

    http://www.digitalspy.com/movies/batman/news/a844921/the-batman-director-recasting-ben-affleck-staying-for-flashpoint/

    "Flashpoint is a wibbly wobbly, timey wimey adventure centred around Barry Allen accidentally messing up the DC Universe timeline, to the point where Wonder Woman and Aquaman become arch enemies, and Batman is actually Bruce Wayne's father Thomas."

    Jeez...just stop. Enough. Radical idea: go get some new ideas, Hollywood.

    If automobile production was left to these guys, we'd have the 18-wheel family hatchback. Because someone thought it was a cool idea....
    Flashpoint is one of my favourite stories, they covered it well on the tv show.
    Exactly. It's all been done before.

    It's as appealling as having Brexit on repeat play, every few years....
  • Charles said:

    Charles said:

    What is it about Remainers who are determined to present this as a whitewash for the EU?

    May hasn't got everything she wanted, but the EU has compromised as well.

    Bit like every negotiation really.

    The EU have got the money guarantees they wanted, the citizens’ rights guarantees they wanted and the guarantees on the Irish border they wanted. That’s why we are heading to Phase 2. It’s very good news. No Deal is just about dead. Mrs May has done well to accept that and if she and the Brexiteers wish to spin it as a victory, why not? The most important thing is that we are going to avoid the cliff edge.

    You don't know that.

    The EU have got less than was publicly asked for (which may not be what they wanted).

    They are willing to accept what they have got (which may not be what they wanted).

    The same goes for the EU.

    I have read the text of the agreement.

  • ‪Well if he’s not happy then I’m chuffed to buggery. ‬

    Definitely a good sign!
  • surbiton said:

    Scott_P said:
    "Fix later" - that no-one will quite find the urgency to fix.

    As predicted.

    Hmmm - the next sentences look more important.

    Any deal on Ireland's border was always going to require a lorry-load of fudge.

    Schrodinger's Fudge at that.

    If the EU rejects the UK’s solutions, regulatory alignment will apply across the UK. So, either we come up with something the EU approves or we align our regulatory regime in a number of key areas with the EU.

    Bye, bye chlorinated chicken!

    Maybe, the DUP nutters have helped us all, after all by insisting that regulatory alignment will apply across the UK.

    Looks like Single Market and Customs Union without being in the Single Market and Customs Union .

    Yep - it’s the Keir Starmer solution.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 15,410

    ‪Well if he’s not happy then I’m chuffed to buggery. ‬

    What else was Farage ever going to say? " Yay! We have cast off Brussel's yoke! Thank you all those UKIP voters who made this happen...." Nah. He's all piss and wind. Always has been.

    The red-line that would have REALLY got him fired up is if May had insisted we weren't going to honour EU pensions...


  • Yep, so a case brought in Year 8 in the UK will go through first instance, appeal and Supreme Court, and can then go to the ECJ. That’s a long process.

    About two cases a year:

    The UK courts have not asked the ECJ for help very often, compared with other member states

    Negotiators are still locked in a stalemate over the role of the ECJ in enforcing citizens’ rights after Brexit. One point of clash is what the withdrawal agreement, the future partnership agreement and UK law should say about how the UK courts are to regard post-Brexit ECJ case law. Another is whether the UK Supreme Court should be obliged to refer questions of EU law on citizens’ rights to the ECJ after Brexit, as it is now.

    Negotiators on both sides should be aware that the UK courts have not made references to the ECJ particularly often in recent years. The number of references from UK courts is average compared with other member states’. Around two references a year concern citizens’ rights.


    https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/IfG_Brexit_ECJ_v10FINAL web.pdf

    Yep - the ECJ red line was always ridiculous.

    But it only remains on Citizens rights for 8 years - on everything else - its gone.....
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 1,487
    Well done Theresa May. This progress should massively reassure business, and ensure that the economy doesn't tank in 2018 which might endanger the whole Brexit project.

    I hope she is rewarded in the polls.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 15,515

    ‪Well if he’s not happy then I’m chuffed to buggery. ‬

    His Telegraph column this morning is looking very outdated already. Sad.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 8,727
    RoyalBlue said:

    Well done Theresa May. This progress should massively reassure business, and ensure that the economy doesn't tank in 2018 which might endanger the whole Brexit project.

    I hope she is rewarded in the polls.

    I'm pleased to see that tripe (from the toys out of the pram Remainers) about her not surviving till Christmas has stopped.

    Also, specially for WilliamGlenn, how does staying in the EU work from here? Grin.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 3,244

    A deal has clearly been reached (pause to say I Told You So). I wonder what it will do for May's standing? The tortuous process and peculiar Government non-preparaions must have filtered through even to people not very interested in politics, but progress is progress. Does May get credit for battling through, or blame for making it so painful? The obvious question is whether the more difficult phase 2 will also reach a deal, but that's for the future.

    I'm also going to claim an I told you so on this...

    If May gets blamed it will be because she didn't fight hard enough/made too many compromises - not because it was too painful.

    Her worry has to be, as it always has been, the Brexiteer flank.
  • Mortimer said:

    What a fanatic morning to be a PBer.

    We're all leavers now.

    Etc etc.

    Well done Mrs May.

    Yep, she’s played a blinder. It’s taken her a fair few months, but she’s managed to convince Leavers they’ve won a great victory by agreeing to all the EU’s red lines. We’re leaving in name only. Rejoice!!!

    What's the point in Leaving In Name Only.
  • RoyalBlue said:

    Well done Theresa May. This progress should massively reassure business, and ensure that the economy doesn't tank in 2018 which might endanger the whole Brexit project.

    I hope she is rewarded in the polls.

    Are you mad? She's told everyone that we HAVE to leave the customs union and single market or it's a BETRAYAL of the VOTERS. And is delivering that in practice we DON'T leave either. A name only holodeck solution where we leave but obey all the rules. Including free movement.

    You think "I want an end to free movement" voters are going to reward her for utter capitulation and not ending free movement?


  • Yep, so a case brought in Year 8 in the UK will go through first instance, appeal and Supreme Court, and can then go to the ECJ. That’s a long process.

    About two cases a year:

    The UK courts have not asked the ECJ for help very often, compared with other member states

    Negotiators are still locked in a stalemate over the role of the ECJ in enforcing citizens’ rights after Brexit. One point of clash is what the withdrawal agreement, the future partnership agreement and UK law should say about how the UK courts are to regard post-Brexit ECJ case law. Another is whether the UK Supreme Court should be obliged to refer questions of EU law on citizens’ rights to the ECJ after Brexit, as it is now.

    Negotiators on both sides should be aware that the UK courts have not made references to the ECJ particularly often in recent years. The number of references from UK courts is average compared with other member states’. Around two references a year concern citizens’ rights.


    https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/IfG_Brexit_ECJ_v10FINAL web.pdf

    Yep - the ECJ red line was always ridiculous.

    But it only remains on Citizens rights for 8 years - on everything else - its gone.....

    No, we’ll only know that when the final deal is agreed.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,952
    Hunt’s delusions again; there’s no such thing as a good Brexit!
  • It's hilarious on here this morning watching the Remainers flail around grasping for a new line of attack on the Government.

    I've actually read the agreement and I'm surprised at how reasonable and practical it is. The EU has also compromised in a number of areas.

    So much bollocks is talked on here.
  • It's hilarious on here this morning watching the Remainers flail around grasping for a new line of attack on the Government.

    I've actually read the agreement and I'm surprised at how reasonable and practical it is. The EU has also compromised in a number of areas.

    So much bollocks is talked on here.

    Post of the year, the last few days on here have been so embarrassing, so many armchair generals who think they know it all and have a hotline to the corridors of power.
This discussion has been closed.