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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » For the first time in over a year more people now think the Br

SystemSystem Posts: 5,841
edited December 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » For the first time in over a year more people now think the Britain will be better off out of the EU than remaining

Fieldwork for the poll took place at the end of last week before this week’s events.

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 5,228
    They are wrong about that, then.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 5,228
    Also, Vanilla will eat the previous post.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 13,870
    The same, possibly. Better, not in the near term.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 998
    Yesterday at work I was speculating with a colleague as to whether Mrs May and her team will have been planning this as the pivot point in her own narrative arc, from which they can begin to rebuild a sense of competence.

    For full disclosure, I do not, and never have believed her to be competent. But she could be forgiven for rather enjoying this weekend.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 1,902
    A most encouraging development. If the transition can be agreed relatively quickly, the government's prospects will improve significantly.
  • Apparently Tim Farron said this a short while ago:



    I think Clegg and Miliband have come out of the last GE looking a lot better than Farron has tbh.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 5,228

    Apparently Tim Farron said this a short while ago:



    I think Clegg and Miliband have come out of the last GE looking a lot better than Farron has tbh.

    Yeah, there is a great void at the centre of my spiritual life which could only be filled by a big beardy man who lives in the clouds and hates gays. What an arse, even by LD standards.
  • Apparently Tim Farron said this a short while ago:



    I think Clegg and Miliband have come out of the last GE looking a lot better than Farron has tbh.

    EdM has learnt a little humility (and I always preferred him to his brother) but I see no evidence that Clegg has.

    Farron's problem is that his deeply held beliefs in Christian Liberalism are rather niche.
  • Mr. Richard, it's curious how sometimes theists like to band together in disliking atheism, and are more willing to overlook inter-religious differences.

    Can't speak for others, but personally I don't need a Bible to tell me murdering people is wrong. Or that shellfish are an abomination.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 2,327

    Apparently Tim Farron said this a short while ago:



    I think Clegg and Miliband have come out of the last GE looking a lot better than Farron has tbh.

    Completely agree TA.

    Farron has always been poor, seems he's now letting himself go.

    I've sometimes thought that settlement and time issues aside ReligiousBetting.com would be a fun site.

  • Apparently Tim Farron said this a short while ago:



    I think Clegg and Miliband have come out of the last GE looking a lot better than Farron has tbh.

    The twitterazis will drag any Christians over the coals over the slightest utterance whilst urinating their trousers defending Islam.

    Tim Farron is alright, despite being a bit misguided and looking like an aged foetus. I don't see Muslim politicians getting hassled over for example what they think of gays (chuck em off the roof) ever.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 998

    Mr. Richard, it's curious how sometimes theists like to band together in disliking atheism, and are more willing to overlook inter-religious differences.

    Can't speak for others, but personally I don't need a Bible to tell me murdering people is wrong. Or that shellfish are an abomination.

    To be fair, it is a rather standard Christian position that people have an inherent sense of 'right and wrong'. The question is not so much what is wrong, but why and on what authority.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 6,743
    edited December 2017
    @Ishmael_Z Yes, given his grievances about the way his beliefs were treated and characterised I was a bit taken a back to see him characterise Atheists in a rather unfair way.

    @another_richard This recent article of his has been popular among some: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/28/liberalism-eaten-itself-british-religious-liberty-christianity-tim-farron

    I found this part of his article a bit curious though: “But are there common secular values that we collectively hold here in Britain? No, I don’t think so. We don’t really have shared values. There is no unifying set of British values. It’s a myth.”

    We have no unifying set of values? Really?
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 2,631

    Mr. Richard, it's curious how sometimes theists like to band together in disliking atheism, and are more willing to overlook inter-religious differences.

    Can't speak for others, but personally I don't need a Bible to tell me murdering people is wrong. Or that shellfish are an abomination.

    That's rather hard on shellfish
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 2,631
    Omnium said:

    Apparently Tim Farron said this a short while ago:



    I think Clegg and Miliband have come out of the last GE looking a lot better than Farron has tbh.

    Completely agree TA.

    Farron has always been poor, seems he's now letting himself go.

    I've sometimes thought that settlement and time issues aside ReligiousBetting.com would be a fun site.

    Would any particular god arbitrate?
  • Apparently Tim Farron said this a short while ago:



    I think Clegg and Miliband have come out of the last GE looking a lot better than Farron has tbh.

    The twitterazis will drag any Christians over the coals over the slightest utterance whilst urinating their trousers defending Islam.

    Tim Farron is alright, despite being a bit misguided and looking like an aged foetus. I don't see Muslim politicians getting hassled over for example what they think of gays (chuck em off the roof) ever.
    Of course they are. The point is that they certainly try to avoid uttering such things in this country as they would be prosecuted for hate crimes.

    Farron is an arse. The idea that millions of people have no morals or common values just because they don't believe in a prehistoric Middle Eastern Sky Fairy is laughable.

    There are plenty of atheists on here from both sides (all sides) of the political divide and one of the reasons we are able to have discussions about the best way to improve the lot of people is not because we lack shared values but because we actually do have them and the only real difference is how to achieve the same shared aims of making life better for people.
  • Apparently Tim Farron said this a short while ago:



    I think Clegg and Miliband have come out of the last GE looking a lot better than Farron has tbh.

    The twitterazis will drag any Christians over the coals over the slightest utterance whilst urinating their trousers defending Islam.

    Tim Farron is alright, despite being a bit misguided and looking like an aged foetus. I don't see Muslim politicians getting hassled over for example what they think of gays (chuck em off the roof) ever.
    Of course they are. The point is that they certainly try to avoid uttering such things in this country as they would be prosecuted for hate crimes.

    Farron is an arse. The idea that millions of people have no morals or common values just because they don't believe in a prehistoric Middle Eastern Sky Fairy is laughable.

    There are plenty of atheists on here from both sides (all sides) of the political divide and one of the reasons we are able to have discussions about the best way to improve the lot of people is not because we lack shared values but because we actually do have them and the only real difference is how to achieve the same shared aims of making life better for people.
    Of course who is? I see no scrutiny of Muslim politicians beliefs in the media ever.

    I don't trust the media or twitter to report on Christian stuff fairly at all I'm afraid.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 2,327

    Mr. Richard, it's curious how sometimes theists like to band together in disliking atheism, and are more willing to overlook inter-religious differences.

    Can't speak for others, but personally I don't need a Bible to tell me murdering people is wrong. Or that shellfish are an abomination.

    That's rather hard on shellfish
    If MD doesn't want to eat shellfish then that's his own loss.

    (This bit is merely for the purposes of debate) Why do you think murder is wrong? I "feel" like everyone that it's deeply wrong, but when I work through why I find it to be somewhat less obviously so, and the old schoolboy question about murdering Hitler has a point.

    I'm fairly sure we're quite far from working out this being alive business. Quite why many of us (e.g, Farron) choose to drive at full speed down a cul-de-sac marked 'the wrong way' escapes me.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 5,228

    Apparently Tim Farron said this a short while ago:



    I think Clegg and Miliband have come out of the last GE looking a lot better than Farron has tbh.

    The twitterazis will drag any Christians over the coals over the slightest utterance whilst urinating their trousers defending Islam.

    Tim Farron is alright, despite being a bit misguided and looking like an aged foetus. I don't see Muslim politicians getting hassled over for example what they think of gays (chuck em off the roof) ever.
    I'd have thought all three religions of the Book were about equally risible, though Christianity possibly edges past the other two with that deeply disturbed cannibal picnic stuff. Hon. ment. also to Judaism, as MD points out, for the shellfish prohibition.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 21,533

    Apparently Tim Farron said this a short while ago:



    I think Clegg and Miliband have come out of the last GE looking a lot better than Farron has tbh.

    The twitterazis will drag any Christians over the coals over the slightest utterance whilst urinating their trousers defending Islam.

    Tim Farron is alright, despite being a bit misguided and looking like an aged foetus. I don't see Muslim politicians getting hassled over for example what they think of gays (chuck em off the roof) ever.
    Of course they are. The point is that they certainly try to avoid uttering such things in this country as they would be prosecuted for hate crimes.

    Farron is an arse. The idea that millions of people have no morals or common values just because they don't believe in a prehistoric Middle Eastern Sky Fairy is laughable.

    There are plenty of atheists on here from both sides (all sides) of the political divide and one of the reasons we are able to have discussions about the best way to improve the lot of people is not because we lack shared values but because we actually do have them and the only real difference is how to achieve the same shared aims of making life better for people.
    Of course who is? I see no scrutiny of Muslim politicians beliefs in the media ever.

    I don't trust the media or twitter to report on Christian stuff fairly at all I'm afraid.
    You might want to Google for "cognitive dissonance".
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 2,327

    Omnium said:

    Apparently Tim Farron said this a short while ago:



    I think Clegg and Miliband have come out of the last GE looking a lot better than Farron has tbh.

    Completely agree TA.

    Farron has always been poor, seems he's now letting himself go.

    I've sometimes thought that settlement and time issues aside ReligiousBetting.com would be a fun site.

    Would any particular god arbitrate?
    Smithson all the way :)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 21,533

    Mr. Richard, it's curious how sometimes theists like to band together in disliking atheism, and are more willing to overlook inter-religious differences.

    Can't speak for others, but personally I don't need a Bible to tell me murdering people is wrong. Or that shellfish are an abomination.

    Also, don't wear green with grey.
  • Ishmael_Z said:

    Apparently Tim Farron said this a short while ago:



    I think Clegg and Miliband have come out of the last GE looking a lot better than Farron has tbh.

    The twitterazis will drag any Christians over the coals over the slightest utterance whilst urinating their trousers defending Islam.

    Tim Farron is alright, despite being a bit misguided and looking like an aged foetus. I don't see Muslim politicians getting hassled over for example what they think of gays (chuck em off the roof) ever.
    I'd have thought all three religions of the Book were about equally risible, though Christianity possibly edges past the other two with that deeply disturbed cannibal picnic stuff. Hon. ment. also to Judaism, as MD points out, for the shellfish prohibition.
    Yeah Christianity is way worse, that's why the West is so illiberal compared to the Middle East.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Apparently Tim Farron said this a short while ago:



    I think Clegg and Miliband have come out of the last GE looking a lot better than Farron has tbh.

    The twitterazis will drag any Christians over the coals over the slightest utterance whilst urinating their trousers defending Islam.

    Tim Farron is alright, despite being a bit misguided and looking like an aged foetus. I don't see Muslim politicians getting hassled over for example what they think of gays (chuck em off the roof) ever.
    Of course they are. The point is that they certainly try to avoid uttering such things in this country as they would be prosecuted for hate crimes.

    Farron is an arse. The idea that millions of people have no morals or common values just because they don't believe in a prehistoric Middle Eastern Sky Fairy is laughable.

    There are plenty of atheists on here from both sides (all sides) of the political divide and one of the reasons we are able to have discussions about the best way to improve the lot of people is not because we lack shared values but because we actually do have them and the only real difference is how to achieve the same shared aims of making life better for people.
    Of course who is? I see no scrutiny of Muslim politicians beliefs in the media ever.

    I don't trust the media or twitter to report on Christian stuff fairly at all I'm afraid.
    You might want to Google for "cognitive dissonance".
    Well you've convinced me with that.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 6,743
    edited December 2017
    Omnium said:

    Apparently Tim Farron said this a short while ago:



    I think Clegg and Miliband have come out of the last GE looking a lot better than Farron has tbh.

    Completely agree TA.

    Farron has always been poor, seems he's now letting himself go.

    I've sometimes thought that settlement and time issues aside ReligiousBetting.com would be a fun site.

    Yes, he’s been a bit weird since the GE. He recently did an interview with Tim Montgomerie for Montgomerie’s website UnHerd and Douglas Murray in separate article was praising him.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Mr. Richard, it's curious how sometimes theists like to band together in disliking atheism, and are more willing to overlook inter-religious differences.

    Can't speak for others, but personally I don't need a Bible to tell me murdering people is wrong. Or that shellfish are an abomination.

    Also, don't wear green with grey.
    What’s wrong with wearing green with grey?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 21,533

    rcs1000 said:

    Mr. Richard, it's curious how sometimes theists like to band together in disliking atheism, and are more willing to overlook inter-religious differences.

    Can't speak for others, but personally I don't need a Bible to tell me murdering people is wrong. Or that shellfish are an abomination.

    Also, don't wear green with grey.
    What’s wrong with wearing green with grey?
    It's the Eleventh Commandment, the one The Gap paid to be lost.
  • Apparently Tim Farron said this a short while ago:



    I think Clegg and Miliband have come out of the last GE looking a lot better than Farron has tbh.

    The twitterazis will drag any Christians over the coals over the slightest utterance whilst urinating their trousers defending Islam.

    Tim Farron is alright, despite being a bit misguided and looking like an aged foetus. I don't see Muslim politicians getting hassled over for example what they think of gays (chuck em off the roof) ever.
    Of course they are. The point is that they certainly try to avoid uttering such things in this country as they would be prosecuted for hate crimes.

    Farron is an arse. The idea that millions of people have no morals or common values just because they don't believe in a prehistoric Middle Eastern Sky Fairy is laughable.

    There are plenty of atheists on here from both sides (all sides) of the political divide and one of the reasons we are able to have discussions about the best way to improve the lot of people is not because we lack shared values but because we actually do have them and the only real difference is how to achieve the same shared aims of making life better for people.
    Of course who is? I see no scrutiny of Muslim politicians beliefs in the media ever.

    I don't trust the media or twitter to report on Christian stuff fairly at all I'm afraid.
    Beliefs are one thing. Making speeches about them from a political pulpit is quite another. Farron's comments are divisive and bigoted and need to be treated as such.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Mr. Richard, it's curious how sometimes theists like to band together in disliking atheism, and are more willing to overlook inter-religious differences.

    Can't speak for others, but personally I don't need a Bible to tell me murdering people is wrong. Or that shellfish are an abomination.

    Also, don't wear green with grey.
    What’s wrong with wearing green with grey?
    HERETIC!!! STONE HER!!!
  • Mr. 1000, the eleventh commandment is thou shalt not get caught.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 2,327

    rcs1000 said:

    Mr. Richard, it's curious how sometimes theists like to band together in disliking atheism, and are more willing to overlook inter-religious differences.

    Can't speak for others, but personally I don't need a Bible to tell me murdering people is wrong. Or that shellfish are an abomination.

    Also, don't wear green with grey.
    What’s wrong with wearing green with grey?
    HERETIC!!! STONE HER!!!
    Bloody moderate!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 27,365
    edited December 2017
    There is no real significant trend one way or another. It is the same with all thing brexit....unlike crypto-kitties!!!
  • Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Apparently Tim Farron said this a short while ago:



    I think Clegg and Miliband have come out of the last GE looking a lot better than Farron has tbh.

    Completely agree TA.

    Farron has always been poor, seems he's now letting himself go.

    I've sometimes thought that settlement and time issues aside ReligiousBetting.com would be a fun site.

    Would any particular god arbitrate?
    Smithson all the way :)
    "But don't forget, a disciple must be strong... if he is to succeed where others fail. Tim Farron strayed from the path and the Lord OGH smote him good. So keep it simple."
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,130
    Omnium said:

    Mr. Richard, it's curious how sometimes theists like to band together in disliking atheism, and are more willing to overlook inter-religious differences.

    Can't speak for others, but personally I don't need a Bible to tell me murdering people is wrong. Or that shellfish are an abomination.

    That's rather hard on shellfish
    If MD doesn't want to eat shellfish then that's his own loss.

    (This bit is merely for the purposes of debate) Why do you think murder is wrong? I "feel" like everyone that it's deeply wrong, but when I work through why I find it to be somewhat less obviously so, and the old schoolboy question about murdering Hitler has a point.

    I'm fairly sure we're quite far from working out this being alive business. Quite why many of us (e.g, Farron) choose to drive at full speed down a cul-de-sac marked 'the wrong way' escapes me.
    Because a community in which it wasn't taboo would struggle to survive in the long term
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,130
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Apparently Tim Farron said this a short while ago:



    I think Clegg and Miliband have come out of the last GE looking a lot better than Farron has tbh.

    The twitterazis will drag any Christians over the coals over the slightest utterance whilst urinating their trousers defending Islam.

    Tim Farron is alright, despite being a bit misguided and looking like an aged foetus. I don't see Muslim politicians getting hassled over for example what they think of gays (chuck em off the roof) ever.
    I'd have thought all three religions of the Book were about equally risible, though Christianity possibly edges past the other two with that deeply disturbed cannibal picnic stuff. Hon. ment. also to Judaism, as MD points out, for the shellfish prohibition.
    Have you never drunk a toast to "absent friends"?

    That's all the Eucharist really is.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,810
    What's the phrase.... don't feed the trolls.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 14,392
    edited December 2017
    By the way, can I just say that I think Mike might have the headline wrong. Looking at the charts he has put up and going to the ORB site it looks like it is only a return to the position we had in September rather than a year ago as the headline claims.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 2,631

    rcs1000 said:

    Mr. Richard, it's curious how sometimes theists like to band together in disliking atheism, and are more willing to overlook inter-religious differences.

    Can't speak for others, but personally I don't need a Bible to tell me murdering people is wrong. Or that shellfish are an abomination.

    Also, don't wear green with grey.
    What’s wrong with wearing green with grey?
    Why does "wrong" come into it? It's a commandment!
  • TomsToms Posts: 1,497
    Recently this cartoon put a couple of PB Brexitiers off.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/62q67g/brexit_caricature_by_bruce_mackinnon/

    Now, with recent developments a follow-up might show something like the same, or similar, character in mid air (as in "Road Runner" cartoons of old) off a cliff flapping his limbs and exclaiming "I can fly". Traditionally the RR 'toon would suspend the coyote briefly in mid air until he realised his predicament whereupon the laws of physics took over.

    Apologies for this but sometimes my brain seems to have an unhinged life of its own.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 19,400

    Apparently Tim Farron said this a short while ago:



    I think Clegg and Miliband have come out of the last GE looking a lot better than Farron has tbh.

    Surely a good belly laugh is a sufficient response.
  • Doing 'the right thing' primarily for personal reward, i.e. in order to go to heaven rather than hell, is not acting in a moral way. It is done for selfish reasons. Us atheists do the right thing purely because it is the right thing to do.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    In other words, keeping the bloody FOREIGNERS OUT is important to 46%.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 19,400
    Maybe all this is getting too much for me but did we not have a thread just 24 hours ago showing remain in the lead for the third month in a row or something? Confused from Dundee.
  • Charles said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Apparently Tim Farron said this a short while ago:



    I think Clegg and Miliband have come out of the last GE looking a lot better than Farron has tbh.

    The twitterazis will drag any Christians over the coals over the slightest utterance whilst urinating their trousers defending Islam.

    Tim Farron is alright, despite being a bit misguided and looking like an aged foetus. I don't see Muslim politicians getting hassled over for example what they think of gays (chuck em off the roof) ever.
    I'd have thought all three religions of the Book were about equally risible, though Christianity possibly edges past the other two with that deeply disturbed cannibal picnic stuff. Hon. ment. also to Judaism, as MD points out, for the shellfish prohibition.
    Have you never drunk a toast to "absent friends"?

    That's all the Eucharist really is.
    Not if you're a good Roman Catholic, and they are still the largest sect.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 20,645

    @Ishmael_Z Yes, given his grievances about the way his beliefs were treated and characterised I was a bit taken a back to see him characterise Atheists in a rather unfair way.

    @another_richard This recent article of his has been popular among some: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/28/liberalism-eaten-itself-british-religious-liberty-christianity-tim-farron

    I found this part of his article a bit curious though: “But are there common secular values that we collectively hold here in Britain? No, I don’t think so. We don’t really have shared values. There is no unifying set of British values. It’s a myth.”

    We have no unifying set of values? Really?

    That last bit is correct, IMHO. I don't think there is a common set of British values. I hate to raise the Unmentionable Subject again, but each side does seem to have a different world outlook (with exceptions).
  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,810
    edited December 2017
    surbiton said:

    In other words, keeping the bloody FOREIGNERS OUT is important to 46%.

    Who knew 46% of the country were despicable racist scum?
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Apparently Tim Farron said this a short while ago:



    I think Clegg and Miliband have come out of the last GE looking a lot better than Farron has tbh.

    The twitterazis will drag any Christians over the coals over the slightest utterance whilst urinating their trousers defending Islam.

    Tim Farron is alright, despite being a bit misguided and looking like an aged foetus. I don't see Muslim politicians getting hassled over for example what they think of gays (chuck em off the roof) ever.
    Most, if not all Muslim politicians you know of, will privately tell you they are either agnostic or mildly religious. Of course, they won't say it publicly.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 5,228

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Apparently Tim Farron said this a short while ago:



    I think Clegg and Miliband have come out of the last GE looking a lot better than Farron has tbh.

    The twitterazis will drag any Christians over the coals over the slightest utterance whilst urinating their trousers defending Islam.

    Tim Farron is alright, despite being a bit misguided and looking like an aged foetus. I don't see Muslim politicians getting hassled over for example what they think of gays (chuck em off the roof) ever.
    I'd have thought all three religions of the Book were about equally risible, though Christianity possibly edges past the other two with that deeply disturbed cannibal picnic stuff. Hon. ment. also to Judaism, as MD points out, for the shellfish prohibition.
    Yeah Christianity is way worse, that's why the West is so illiberal compared to the Middle East.
    It is 600 years ahead, numpty. Have you heard of, say, Latimer or Cranmer, or the Inquisition? Stuff which makes throwing people off roofs look humane.
  • Mr. Z, that's a strange point to make. The Mormons haven't struggled to cope with the modern world.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 27,365
    edited December 2017
    Would-be Labour councillor claims there is no such thing as ISIS in string of controversial Facebook posts

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5162457/Would-Labour-councillor-claims-no-ISIS.html

    Labour appear to be trying to outdo UKIP on the conspiracy nutter count.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 20,645
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Apparently Tim Farron said this a short while ago:



    I think Clegg and Miliband have come out of the last GE looking a lot better than Farron has tbh.

    The twitterazis will drag any Christians over the coals over the slightest utterance whilst urinating their trousers defending Islam.

    Tim Farron is alright, despite being a bit misguided and looking like an aged foetus. I don't see Muslim politicians getting hassled over for example what they think of gays (chuck em off the roof) ever.
    I'd have thought all three religions of the Book were about equally risible, though Christianity possibly edges past the other two with that deeply disturbed cannibal picnic stuff. Hon. ment. also to Judaism, as MD points out, for the shellfish prohibition.
    Yeah Christianity is way worse, that's why the West is so illiberal compared to the Middle East.
    It is 600 years ahead, numpty. Have you heard of, say, Latimer or Cranmer, or the Inquisition? Stuff which makes throwing people off roofs look humane.
    IS manage to be rather more creative in the way they kill captives than Mary Tudor was.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 5,228
    RobD said:

    surbiton said:

    In other words, keeping the bloody FOREIGNERS OUT is important to 46%.

    Who knew 46% of the country were despicable racist scum?
    Good to see surbiton resiling from his position expressed two weeks ago that British Asians should "drown in shit" (I am not making that up). What we are seeing now is the zeal of the convert.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 20,645

    Mr. Z, that's a strange point to make. The Mormons haven't struggled to cope with the modern world.

    My own Labour councillor was an admirer of Adolf Hitler.
  • Mr. Z, that's a strange point to make. The Mormons haven't struggled to cope with the modern world.

    On the other hand, the armish less so ;-)

    Salt Lake City is of the strangest places I have visited. Super successful place, very high average earnings, quality of life, educational attainment, but incredibly high suicide rate. there is something very odd about the place
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 20,645

    Mr. Z, that's a strange point to make. The Mormons haven't struggled to cope with the modern world.

    On the other hand, the armish less so ;-)

    Salt Lake City is of the strangest places I have visited. Super successful place, very high average earnings, quality of life, educational attainment, but incredibly high suicide rate. there is something very odd about the place
    Also, the most secular and left wing part of Utah. The Mormon/Republican population dominates surrounding towns and rural areas.
  • Mr. Urquhart, after the failed uprising in an eastern European country (forget which one) against the Soviets, the economy improved but life expectancy inexplicably declined.

    Human societies can sometimes be quite odd, such as when the Spartans were destroyed by winning the Peloponnesian War (they were rich, which didn't exactly gel with their general approach to life).
  • Sean_F said:

    Mr. Z, that's a strange point to make. The Mormons haven't struggled to cope with the modern world.

    My own Labour councillor was an admirer of Adolf Hitler.
    I thought it was a pre-requisite these days that they to have similar opinions towards Jews.
  • Mr. F, well, it makes a change from being an admirer of Stalin, I suppose.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 4,692
    justin124 said:

    'The Tories took more UKIP votes than Labour last June - although those votes did not fall in their favour to the extent that many had assumed. The idea that all UKIP voters would switch to the Tories in the absence of a candidate was shown to be nonsense.'

    Ydoethur said

    'Is there any evidence of churn - Tory remainers defecting to Labour, not wholly compensated for by UKIP voters?

    It would have been an odd position to take given Corbyn's own lack of enthusiasm for the EU, but the whole election was more surreal than a Monty Python sketch anyway.'

    I suspect that many commentators misunderstood the reasons why so many voted UKIP in 2015. For a large number UKIP - and to a lesser extent the Greens - had replaced the LibDems as the anti-establishment or 'none of the above' option.By no means was the EU the only driver of their support. The LibDems had ceased to perform this function after entering Coalition with the Tories. As a result the disaffected had to look elsewhere.
  • Sean_F said:

    Mr. Z, that's a strange point to make. The Mormons haven't struggled to cope with the modern world.

    My own Labour councillor was an admirer of Adolf Hitler.
    WHAT?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 20,645

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Z, that's a strange point to make. The Mormons haven't struggled to cope with the modern world.

    My own Labour councillor was an admirer of Adolf Hitler.
    I thought it was a pre-requisite these days that they to have similar opinions towards Jews.
    She certainly had similar opinions on Der Judenfrage, which she posted on twitter.
  • Mr. F, Die Judenfrage.

    Cooler, two weeks.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 20,645

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Z, that's a strange point to make. The Mormons haven't struggled to cope with the modern world.

    My own Labour councillor was an admirer of Adolf Hitler.
    WHAT?
    Councillor Ayzegul Gurbuz was forced to resign after tweeting (inter alia) that Hitler was " the greatest man in history" and that had he not carried out the Holocaust, the sufferings of Palestinians would have been far worse.
  • Sean_F said:

    @Ishmael_Z Yes, given his grievances about the way his beliefs were treated and characterised I was a bit taken a back to see him characterise Atheists in a rather unfair way.

    @another_richard This recent article of his has been popular among some: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/28/liberalism-eaten-itself-british-religious-liberty-christianity-tim-farron

    I found this part of his article a bit curious though: “But are there common secular values that we collectively hold here in Britain? No, I don’t think so. We don’t really have shared values. There is no unifying set of British values. It’s a myth.”

    We have no unifying set of values? Really?

    That last bit is correct, IMHO. I don't think there is a common set of British values. I hate to raise the Unmentionable Subject again, but each side does seem to have a different world outlook (with exceptions).
    I don't agree. I think people have that perception primarily because they have not experienced the very different sets of values that exist around the world. That lack of experience means that the differences seen in the UK seem highly exaggerated when in fact most people do share very similar sets of values within the community. The prime difference between them, I would contend, is that they see sometimes radically different ways in which to achieve the same ends.

    Like most people I would be hard pressed to articulate those values as we have not tended to push them down the throats of our citizens in the same way that, for example, the Americans do. But I don't, for example (and to pick probably the person I most disagree with on here about pretty much everything), I don't think that Williamglenn's value systems are really very different from my own. Nor Tysons, or Surbitons etc.

    Indeed the people I tend to disagree with most on basic values are those who are openly religious, partly because it just pushes a button with me but also because I do find some of the basic tenets to be anathema to me.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 6,743
    edited December 2017
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Z, that's a strange point to make. The Mormons haven't struggled to cope with the modern world.

    My own Labour councillor was an admirer of Adolf Hitler.
    WHAT?
    Councillor Ayzegul Gurbuz was forced to resign after tweeting (inter alia) that Hitler was " the greatest man in history" and that had he not carried out the Holocaust, the sufferings of Palestinians would have been far worse.
    There are literally no words for her.
  • surbiton said:

    Apparently Tim Farron said this a short while ago:



    I think Clegg and Miliband have come out of the last GE looking a lot better than Farron has tbh.

    The twitterazis will drag any Christians over the coals over the slightest utterance whilst urinating their trousers defending Islam.

    Tim Farron is alright, despite being a bit misguided and looking like an aged foetus. I don't see Muslim politicians getting hassled over for example what they think of gays (chuck em off the roof) ever.
    Most, if not all Muslim politicians you know of, will privately tell you they are either agnostic or mildly religious. Of course, they won't say it publicly.
    Why can't they say it publicly?
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 1,204
    edited December 2017

    Mr. F, Die Judenfrage.

    Cooler, two weeks.

    But used in a dative context, so arguably "der Judenfrage" in that sentence.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 954
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Apparently Tim Farron said this a short while ago:



    I think Clegg and Miliband have come out of the last GE looking a lot better than Farron has tbh.

    The twitterazis will drag any Christians over the coals over the slightest utterance whilst urinating their trousers defending Islam.

    Tim Farron is alright, despite being a bit misguided and looking like an aged foetus. I don't see Muslim politicians getting hassled over for example what they think of gays (chuck em off the roof) ever.
    I'd have thought all three religions of the Book were about equally risible, though Christianity possibly edges past the other two with that deeply disturbed cannibal picnic stuff. Hon. ment. also to Judaism, as MD points out, for the shellfish prohibition.
    Yeah Christianity is way worse, that's why the West is so illiberal compared to the Middle East.
    It is 600 years ahead, numpty. Have you heard of, say, Latimer or Cranmer, or the Inquisition? Stuff which makes throwing people off roofs look humane.
    It's a bit spurious that the age of a religion is related to its liberalism. Judaism is several millenia older than Christianity yet didn't liberalise before it. Compare also Shinto, Hinduism and Buddhism.

    Of the three major Abrahamic faiths, the best thing Christianity had going for it is that its founder didn't have any political power, so wanted to keep politics out of religion.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 954
    surbiton said:

    Apparently Tim Farron said this a short while ago:



    I think Clegg and Miliband have come out of the last GE looking a lot better than Farron has tbh.

    The twitterazis will drag any Christians over the coals over the slightest utterance whilst urinating their trousers defending Islam.

    Tim Farron is alright, despite being a bit misguided and looking like an aged foetus. I don't see Muslim politicians getting hassled over for example what they think of gays (chuck em off the roof) ever.
    Most, if not all Muslim politicians you know of, will privately tell you they are either agnostic or mildly religious. Of course, they won't say it publicly.
    That just isn't true.
  • Apparently Tim Farron said this a short while ago:



    I think Clegg and Miliband have come out of the last GE looking a lot better than Farron has tbh.

    The twitterazis will drag any Christians over the coals over the slightest utterance whilst urinating their trousers defending Islam.

    Tim Farron is alright, despite being a bit misguided and looking like an aged foetus. I don't see Muslim politicians getting hassled over for example what they think of gays (chuck em off the roof) ever.
    You think if a Muslim openly expressed homophobia, that wouldn't be an impedement to them leading the Lib Dem party?
  • Sean_F said:

    Mr. Z, that's a strange point to make. The Mormons haven't struggled to cope with the modern world.

    My own Labour councillor was an admirer of Adolf Hitler.
    If you ignore Hitler’s anti-Semitism, his crazy decisions to invade Russia, and declaring war on America there’s a lot to admire about Hitler militarily.

    He took a basket case country to being the dominant country in Europe, occupying most of it within a few years of taking power, even Napoleon never managed that.

    Hitler’s Germany was a lot like the British Empire, which easily segues into the British concentration camps during the Boer War.

    History is truly written by the victors.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 954

    surbiton said:

    Apparently Tim Farron said this a short while ago:



    I think Clegg and Miliband have come out of the last GE looking a lot better than Farron has tbh.

    The twitterazis will drag any Christians over the coals over the slightest utterance whilst urinating their trousers defending Islam.

    Tim Farron is alright, despite being a bit misguided and looking like an aged foetus. I don't see Muslim politicians getting hassled over for example what they think of gays (chuck em off the roof) ever.
    Most, if not all Muslim politicians you know of, will privately tell you they are either agnostic or mildly religious. Of course, they won't say it publicly.
    Why can't they say it publicly?
    Because ex-Muslims like myself face incredible abuse from a large minority of Muslims and social ostracism from the majority.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,679
    Hmm - I try and avoid personal criticism but a lot of very superficial comment this evening on the relationship between secular values and religion and how Western society's values have evolved.

    I would only say this - since I have stuff to do - that the debt which Western values owe to Christianity and Judaism is far deeper than those who are atheist, humanist, agnostic or some other faith often allow. The concept of human rights and, indeed, the form of human rights we in the West like to think of as universal did not just come from nowhere.

    And, second, there is a form of liberal intolerance to different views, a view that there is only a limited range of "received opinions" which are acceptable which is, in its own way, quite as illiberal and damaging to freedom of thought and inquiry as that which it so often criticises.

    Anyway, off to think about dinner.

    Have a nice evening all.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    Cyclefree said:

    Hmm - I try and avoid personal criticism but a lot of very superficial comment this evening on the relationship between secular values and religion and how Western society's values have evolved.

    I would only say this - since I have stuff to do - that the debt which Western values owe to Christianity and Judaism is far deeper than those who are atheist, humanist, agnostic or some other faith often allow. The concept of human rights and, indeed, the form of human rights we in the West like to think of as universal did not just come from nowhere.

    And, second, there is a form of liberal intolerance to different views, a view that there is only a limited range of "received opinions" which are acceptable which is, in its own way, quite as illiberal and damaging to freedom of thought and inquiry as that which it so often criticises.

    Anyway, off to think about dinner.

    Have a nice evening all.

    Hmm. Interesting.

    In your view, do Western values have no debt to Islam?

    Bonus question: Were the values codified into Judaisim/Christianity not universal/human?
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 679
    edited December 2017

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Z, that's a strange point to make. The Mormons haven't struggled to cope with the modern world.

    My own Labour councillor was an admirer of Adolf Hitler.
    If you ignore Hitler’s anti-Semitism, his crazy decisions to invade Russia, and declaring war on America there’s a lot to admire about Hitler militarily.

    He took a basket case country to being the dominant country in Europe, occupying most of it within a few years of taking power, even Napoleon never managed that.

    Hitler’s Germany was a lot like the British Empire, which easily segues into the British concentration camps during the Boer War.

    History is truly written by the victors.
    Hitler was a terrible military leader: he kept on doing things that no sane general would consider. He only got as far as he did because the first few of his reckless gambles actually worked. As soon as that lucky streak ran out his fate was sealed. Even if he had carried on winning against the odds, he’d ruined Germany’s finances to pay for his military build up and would have eventually run out of plunder to pay for it.
  • Cyclefree said:

    And, second, there is a form of liberal intolerance to different views, a view that there is only a limited range of "received opinions" which are acceptable which is, in its own way, quite as illiberal and damaging to freedom of thought and inquiry as that which it so often criticises.

    I'm always a little confused by this line of argument because I don't really understand where you're drawing the line between "disagreeing with a view" and "not tolerating a view". For example, I disagree with how Farron sees atheists. And, likewise he'd disagree with me. When does that become intolerance? Is it just when one of us becomes vociferous enough in defence of our beliefs?
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 5,228
    Cyclefree said:

    Hmm - I try and avoid personal criticism but a lot of very superficial comment this evening on the relationship between secular values and religion and how Western society's values have evolved.

    I would only say this - since I have stuff to do - that the debt which Western values owe to Christianity and Judaism is far deeper than those who are atheist, humanist, agnostic or some other faith often allow. The concept of human rights and, indeed, the form of human rights we in the West like to think of as universal did not just come from nowhere.

    And, second, there is a form of liberal intolerance to different views, a view that there is only a limited range of "received opinions" which are acceptable which is, in its own way, quite as illiberal and damaging to freedom of thought and inquiry as that which it so often criticises.

    Anyway, off to think about dinner.

    Have a nice evening all.

    Plato and Aristotle worked out a much more coherent and satisfactory moral theory than anything in the Bible, and Aquinas borrowed it into Christianity. And point two, I don't think Christianity is incoherent nonsense because that is one of a limited range of "received opinions" available to me. It's my own opinion, based on the primary evidence.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 21,533
    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Z, that's a strange point to make. The Mormons haven't struggled to cope with the modern world.

    On the other hand, the armish less so ;-)

    Salt Lake City is of the strangest places I have visited. Super successful place, very high average earnings, quality of life, educational attainment, but incredibly high suicide rate. there is something very odd about the place
    Also, the most secular and left wing part of Utah. The Mormon/Republican population dominates surrounding towns and rural areas.
    Except Park City.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 21,533
    On the subject of Utah, my namesake's most famous work is there. I must visit it.
  • On topic, the voters are also in favour of re-nationalising the railways.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,130
    Dubliner said:

    Charles said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Apparently Tim Farron said this a short while ago:



    I think Clegg and Miliband have come out of the last GE looking a lot better than Farron has tbh.

    The twitterazis will drag any Christians over the coals over the slightest utterance whilst urinating their trousers defending Islam.

    Tim Farron is alright, despite being a bit misguided and looking like an aged foetus. I don't see Muslim politicians getting hassled over for example what they think of gays (chuck em off the roof) ever.
    I'd have thought all three religions of the Book were about equally risible, though Christianity possibly edges past the other two with that deeply disturbed cannibal picnic stuff. Hon. ment. also to Judaism, as MD points out, for the shellfish prohibition.
    Have you never drunk a toast to "absent friends"?

    That's all the Eucharist really is.
    Not if you're a good Roman Catholic, and they are still the largest sect.
    But we all know they're just silly.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Hmm - I try and avoid personal criticism but a lot of very superficial comment this evening on the relationship between secular values and religion and how Western society's values have evolved.

    I would only say this - since I have stuff to do - that the debt which Western values owe to Christianity and Judaism is far deeper than those who are atheist, humanist, agnostic or some other faith often allow. The concept of human rights and, indeed, the form of human rights we in the West like to think of as universal did not just come from nowhere.

    And, second, there is a form of liberal intolerance to different views, a view that there is only a limited range of "received opinions" which are acceptable which is, in its own way, quite as illiberal and damaging to freedom of thought and inquiry as that which it so often criticises.

    Anyway, off to think about dinner.

    Have a nice evening all.

    No western human rights didn't just come from nowhere they evolved over time. Some date back to Graeco-Roman times and some only recently developed.

    I'd be curious of any human rights that can be traced back specifically to the first Millenia of Christianity being dominant (ie 4th to 13th century).
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,130
    rcs1000 said:

    On the subject of Utah, my namesake's most famous work is there. I must visit it.

    John wants to lock his diary when you have some clarity on your movements
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 21,533
    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On the subject of Utah, my namesake's most famous work is there. I must visit it.

    John wants to lock his diary when you have some clarity on your movements
    Guilty. I'll call drop him an email now.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 20,645

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Z, that's a strange point to make. The Mormons haven't struggled to cope with the modern world.

    My own Labour councillor was an admirer of Adolf Hitler.
    If you ignore Hitler’s anti-Semitism, his crazy decisions to invade Russia, and declaring war on America there’s a lot to admire about Hitler militarily.

    He took a basket case country to being the dominant country in Europe, occupying most of it within a few years of taking power, even Napoleon never managed that.

    Hitler’s Germany was a lot like the British Empire, which easily segues into the British concentration camps during the Boer War.

    History is truly written by the victors.
    That is ignoring rather a lot.

    A Hitler who was not anti-Semitic, who did not invade Russia, and who concentrated on restoring German power, would have been rather like Bismarck.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 9,439
    edited December 2017
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Apparently Tim Farron said this a short while ago:



    I think Clegg and Miliband have come out of the last GE looking a lot better than Farron has tbh.

    Yeah, there is a great void at the centre of my spiritual life which could only be filled by a big beardy man who lives in the clouds and hates gays. What an arse, even by LD standards.
    If you substitute 'Jews' or 'intelligent people' for 'gays', that is in many ways an apt description of the cult of the Jezziah.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,130
    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On the subject of Utah, my namesake's most famous work is there. I must visit it.

    John wants to lock his diary when you have some clarity on your movements
    Guilty. I'll call drop him an email now.
    Thanks
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 9,439

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Z, that's a strange point to make. The Mormons haven't struggled to cope with the modern world.

    My own Labour councillor was an admirer of Adolf Hitler.
    WHAT?
    Councillor Ayzegul Gurbuz was forced to resign after tweeting (inter alia) that Hitler was " the greatest man in history" and that had he not carried out the Holocaust, the sufferings of Palestinians would have been far worse.
    There are literally no words for her.
    Now come on Miss Apocalypse, there are many words for her.

    Just none we can use on PB without upsetting our long suffering moderator.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 20,645
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Hmm - I try and avoid personal criticism but a lot of very superficial comment this evening on the relationship between secular values and religion and how Western society's values have evolved.

    I would only say this - since I have stuff to do - that the debt which Western values owe to Christianity and Judaism is far deeper than those who are atheist, humanist, agnostic or some other faith often allow. The concept of human rights and, indeed, the form of human rights we in the West like to think of as universal did not just come from nowhere.

    And, second, there is a form of liberal intolerance to different views, a view that there is only a limited range of "received opinions" which are acceptable which is, in its own way, quite as illiberal and damaging to freedom of thought and inquiry as that which it so often criticises.

    Anyway, off to think about dinner.

    Have a nice evening all.

    Plato and Aristotle worked out a much more coherent and satisfactory moral theory than anything in the Bible, and Aquinas borrowed it into Christianity. And point two, I don't think Christianity is incoherent nonsense because that is one of a limited range of "received opinions" available to me. It's my own opinion, based on the primary evidence.
    I greatly admire many ancient civilisations, but it's easy to overlook how pitiless they were, to the lower classes, slaves, conquered peoples etc.

    I'd say the big moral advance made by the Christians was to put forward the view that pity, mercy, and charity were all good things in themselves.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,606
    edited December 2017
    I don’t ignore the impact Christian culture has had on the values of this country, for good and ill, and there is plenty good there (how much of the good derives from even older systems I think is another argument altogether, since it was Christianity as it developed which through cultural dominance imparted many cultural values). However, while that impact has been undeniable, it is not necessary in order to hold good values to be an adherent of any faith. As an atheist while I don’t hold the same views as Farron I do think he was treated a mite unfairly at times, in that I always thought a liberal approach would be its doesn’t matter what he believes if what he plans to do is good. However he has moaned quite a lot about it since.

    Also, like DavidL I am confused at this in concert with the BrexitisRight tracker. More evidence polls or just the people do not know a damn thing.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 5,129

    rcs1000 said:

    Mr. Richard, it's curious how sometimes theists like to band together in disliking atheism, and are more willing to overlook inter-religious differences.

    Can't speak for others, but personally I don't need a Bible to tell me murdering people is wrong. Or that shellfish are an abomination.

    Also, don't wear green with grey.
    What’s wrong with wearing green with grey?
    I have a sneaking regard for the combination...


    There is, however, a biblical prohibition on mixing wool and flax, for example.
  • A former Fox News presenter has claimed that Donald Trump once attempted to kiss her on the lips around the time he married his second wife Melania.

    Juliet Huddy said Mr Trump made the move in a lift after the pair had lunch in Trump Tower in either 2005 or 2006. Mr Trump married Melania in January 2005.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/09/ex-fox-news-anchor-donald-trump-tried-kiss-lift/
  • rpjs said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Z, that's a strange point to make. The Mormons haven't struggled to cope with the modern world.

    My own Labour councillor was an admirer of Adolf Hitler.
    If you ignore Hitler’s anti-Semitism, his crazy decisions to invade Russia, and declaring war on America there’s a lot to admire about Hitler militarily.

    He took a basket case country to being the dominant country in Europe, occupying most of it within a few years of taking power, even Napoleon never managed that.

    Hitler’s Germany was a lot like the British Empire, which easily segues into the British concentration camps during the Boer War.

    History is truly written by the victors.
    Hitler was a terrible military leader: he kept on doing things that no sane general would consider. He only got as far as he did because the first few of his reckless gambles actually worked. As soon as that lucky streak ran out his fate was sealed. Even if he had carried on winning against the odds, he’d ruined Germany’s finances to pay for his military build up and would have eventually run out of plunder to pay for it.
    I always saw AH as a Martingale bettor; there's a kind of nihilistic despair to adherents of that form of betting.
  • Sean_F said:

    Mr. Z, that's a strange point to make. The Mormons haven't struggled to cope with the modern world.

    My own Labour councillor was an admirer of Adolf Hitler.
    If you ignore Hitler’s anti-Semitism, his crazy decisions to invade Russia, and declaring war on America there’s a lot to admire about Hitler militarily.

    He took a basket case country to being the dominant country in Europe, occupying most of it within a few years of taking power, even Napoleon never managed that.

    Hitler’s Germany was a lot like the British Empire, which easily segues into the British concentration camps during the Boer War.

    History is truly written by the victors.
    Ignoring the tedious provocation (of the sort my 11 year old wouldn’t bother with) you ought to try reading Adam Tooze’s Wages of Destruction. The German economy remained an effective basket case on the edge of insolvency. Plunder across Europe slowed that down but didn’t stop it.

    I’d think of the difference between Concentration Camps, Camps of Concentration and neglect vs a deliberate death policy.

    You flaunt your history knowledge but you don’t half come across as a first year undergraduate at times.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,606

    A former Fox News presenter has claimed that Donald Trump once attempted to kiss her on the lips around the time he married his second wife Melania.

    Juliet Huddy said Mr Trump made the move in a lift after the pair had lunch in Trump Tower in either 2005 or 2006. Mr Trump married Melania in January 2005.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/09/ex-fox-news-anchor-donald-trump-tried-kiss-lift/

    I’m sure he will respond this this in a dignified manner.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 9,439
    edited December 2017



    Ignoring the tedious provocation (of the sort my 11 year old wouldn’t bother with) you ought to try reading Adam Tooze’s Wages of Destruction. The German economy remained an effective basket case on the edge of insolvency. Plunder across Europe slowed that down but didn’t stop it.

    I haven't read Tooze's work. Such work as I have read on the economy's or the Third Reich suggests (a) its recovery had next to nothing to do with Hitler and (b) his rearmament policy may have held it back in crucial ways - butter being rationed throughout his time in office to allow more currency to be diverted to munitions springs to mind. But I'd be interested to know more.

    Also of course plunder across Europe - I take it you are including the theft of the property of Germany's Jews?
  • AnExileinD4AnExileinD4 Posts: 138
    edited December 2017
    kle4 said:

    I don’t ignore the impact Christian culture has had on the values of this country, for good and ill, and there is plenty good there (how much of the good derives from even older systems I think is another argument altogether, since it was Christianity as it developed which through cultural dominance imparted many cultural values). However, while that impact has been undeniable, it is not necessary in order to hold good values to be an adherent of any faith. As an atheist while I don’t hold the same views as Farron I do think he was treated a mite unfairly at times, in that I always thought a liberal approach would be its doesn’t matter what he believes if what he plans to do is good. However he has moaned quite a lot about it since.

    Also, like DavidL I am confused at this in concert with the BrexitisRight tracker. More evidence polls or just the people do not know a damn thing.

    Isn’t it just that people react to what they’ve most recently heard/seen. The coverage has, generally, been more positive in the last week. Think of the BBC running its annual NHS in crisis programming and voter interest in the NHS rising up the food chain.

    It’s like Mr Meeks regretting the lack of a cerebral debate about Brexit (a view with which I agree). Most people react to stimulus rather than lead in their thoughts and behaviours. The ones how don’t are the leaders, opinion formers etc. For what it’s worth, May I think generally falls into the react not lead camp. In short she’s closer to the public than David Cameron which ironically makes her a terrible PM.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,606

    kle4 said:

    I don’t ignore the impact Christian culture has had on the values of this country, for good and ill, and there is plenty good there (how much of the good derives from even older systems I think is another argument altogether, since it was Christianity as it developed which through cultural dominance imparted many cultural values). However, while that impact has been undeniable, it is not necessary in order to hold good values to be an adherent of any faith. As an atheist while I don’t hold the same views as Farron I do think he was treated a mite unfairly at times, in that I always thought a liberal approach would be its doesn’t matter what he believes if what he plans to do is good. However he has moaned quite a lot about it since.

    Also, like DavidL I am confused at this in concert with the BrexitisRight tracker. More evidence polls or just the people do not know a damn thing.

    Isn’t it just that people react to what they’ve most recently heard/seen The coverage has, generally, been more positive in the last week. Think of the BBC running its annual NHS in crisis programming and voter interest in the NHS rising up the food chain.

    I
    Ah yes, the NHS - aren’t we due a fresh round of NHS in crisis stories?
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,086
    ydoethur said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Apparently Tim Farron said this a short while ago:



    I think Clegg and Miliband have come out of the last GE looking a lot better than Farron has tbh.

    Yeah, there is a great void at the centre of my spiritual life which could only be filled by a big beardy man who lives in the clouds and hates gays. What an arse, even by LD standards.
    If you substitute 'Jews' or 'intelligent people' for 'gays', that is in many ways an apt description of the cult of the Jezziah.
    ydoethur said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Apparently Tim Farron said this a short while ago:



    I think Clegg and Miliband have come out of the last GE looking a lot better than Farron has tbh.

    Yeah, there is a great void at the centre of my spiritual life which could only be filled by a big beardy man who lives in the clouds and hates gays. What an arse, even by LD standards.
    If you substitute 'Jews' or 'intelligent people' for 'gays', that is in many ways an apt description of the cult of the Jezziah.
    Really? What a sweet person you are......
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