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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It is time to salute the brilliance of the visionary that is D

SystemSystem Posts: 3,967
edited December 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It is time to salute the brilliance of the visionary that is Diane Abbott

A year ago this weekend Diane Abbott made this prediction

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 18,176
    edited December 2017
    Thirst.

    Or using Abbott's maths, twelvety-fifth.
  • Second! Like Remain..
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Any credit for Labour's upsurge in the polls goes to Corbyn [ and May's spectacular lack of people-sense ]. This is coming from a non-Corbynista. Only during the election campaign, where people saw Corbyn upfront a lot, did people warm to him.

    Abbott was just whistling in the wind. Her communication skills are terrible. However, she is respected hugely in the Black community.
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,693
    Minus the thirteenth root of (ijk)th!

    It's all fake hystericalist propaganda anyway. When Gove Mogg-Boris becomes Mime Prinister, we will all be liberated from the tyranny of opinion polls!
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,693
    It is amusing to notice, also, the adjoining thread on whether Boris might be sacked before 2018

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/12/11/betting-on-will-boris-johnson-still-be-foreign-secretary-of-the-1st-of-january-2018/
  • TomsToms Posts: 1,453
    TSE go wash your mouth (err typing fingers?) out: you used the A....t word.
  • Abbott as successor to JC - The Labour party seems trapped by its London pre-eminence at present. Abbott, Corbyn, McDonnel, even Starmer are all London MPs. Whilst this is good for trotting along to TV studios etc the bubble is a bit all consuming.

    As someone who has never lived in London I am suspicious of the focus of all things SE and London, my feeling is that for Labour to succeed it needs to look beyond the capital city - Scotland, the midlands need to really feel loved by Labour (and to love them back) for there to be a serious Gen Election win in the offing which I do not see much evidence of, then again who knows where we will be in a year's time.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 8,139
    'Perhaps we should all start paying closer attention to the pronouncements of Diane Abbott.'

    Labour paying police officers £30 a year and forcing them to walk around stark naked into their 80s? Well, with Macdonnell in charge taking us back to the seventeenth century and a fully agrarian economy it seems plausible.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 8,139
    Completely off topic, there is a massive blizzard in Cannock right now. If as forecast it began at 5, then we've had over two inches in under two hours. If that keeps up all day today, then I'm expecting a nightmare at school tomorrow.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 9,040
    DAICWNBLOL
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 8,139

    DAICWNBLOL

    I'm assuming LOL stands for 'Leader Of Labour' in this context?

    We have all LOLed at her in times past, which I'm sure we all feel duly guilty about after revelations about her illness.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 1,853
    I was with you all the way on this until your conclusion: 'for the first time in a while I’m feeling a little bit confident about my bet on Diane Abbott being Corbyn’s successor'.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 7,510
    ydoethur said:

    Completely off topic, there is a massive blizzard in Cannock right now. If as forecast it began at 5, then we've had over two inches in under two hours. If that keeps up all day today, then I'm expecting a nightmare at school tomorrow.

    https://www.netweather.tv/live-weather/radar

    Turn weather type on to see the snow.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,527
    If we were to agree with your thesis we'd have to give equal weight to the genius of Theresa May. She realised when no one else did that she had a tiny window of opportunity to win an election before the Corbyn onslaught.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 8,139
    edited December 2017
    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Completely off topic, there is a massive blizzard in Cannock right now. If as forecast it began at 5, then we've had over two inches in under two hours. If that keeps up all day today, then I'm expecting a nightmare at school tomorrow.

    https://www.netweather.tv/live-weather/radar

    Turn weather type on to see the snow.
    Interesting but unfortunately wrong. We've already had more snow than it forecast over the whole three-hour slot in the last hour.

    And it's still falling faster than Theresa May's poll rating after the dementia tax. The kerbs are now covered.

    Edit - on a close look ther's something else quite worrying. It's not quite pure snow. It's got some sleet. But it's freezing as soon as it hits the ground.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,509
    Northerners have one or two snowflakes and they call it a blizzard.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 8,139
    edited December 2017
    Jonathan said:

    Northerners have one or two snowflakes and they call it a blizzard.

    I call it a blizzard when I open the fanlight six inches and have to jump backwards because I've suddenly got a facefull of sleet.

    What would you call it?

    (Oh, and Cannock isn't North. It's Midlands.)
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 7,510
    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Completely off topic, there is a massive blizzard in Cannock right now. If as forecast it began at 5, then we've had over two inches in under two hours. If that keeps up all day today, then I'm expecting a nightmare at school tomorrow.

    https://www.netweather.tv/live-weather/radar

    Turn weather type on to see the snow.
    Interesting but unfortunately wrong. We've already had more snow than it forecast over the whole three-hour slot in the last hour.

    And it's still falling faster than Theresa May's poll rating after the dementia tax. The kerbs are now covered.

    Edit - on a close look ther's something else quite worrying. It's not quite pure snow. It's got some sleet. But it's freezing as soon as it hits the ground.
    It looks right to me and I reckon it's going to get worse. Glad I'm going to Southampton today rather than West Brom, Stoke, Liverpool or Manchester.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,509
    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Northerners have one or two snowflakes and they call it a blizzard.

    I call it a blizzard when I open the fanlight six inches and have to jump backwards because I've suddenly got a facefull of sleet.

    What would you call it?

    (Oh, and Cannock isn't North. It's Midlands.)
    Firstly, everything the wrong side of the M4 is the North. Secondly, I might not be being completely serious. Thirdly, stay warm and safe.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 8,139
    edited December 2017
    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Northerners have one or two snowflakes and they call it a blizzard.

    I call it a blizzard when I open the fanlight six inches and have to jump backwards because I've suddenly got a facefull of sleet.

    What would you call it?

    (Oh, and Cannock isn't North. It's Midlands.)
    Firstly, everything the wrong side of the M4 is the North. Secondly, I might not be being completely serious. Thirdly, stay warm and safe.
    Thanks for the clarification. No worries. Thank you also for the good wishes.

    I have a funny feeling there won't be too many at church this morning. I'm not risking the car so I'll have to walk. But the church I normally play for has a high average age so I'm thinking most will stay at home. This is slippery and anyone going over could easily break something.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,527
    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Completely off topic, there is a massive blizzard in Cannock right now. If as forecast it began at 5, then we've had over two inches in under two hours. If that keeps up all day today, then I'm expecting a nightmare at school tomorrow.

    https://www.netweather.tv/live-weather/radar

    Turn weather type on to see the snow.
    Interesting but unfortunately wrong. We've already had more snow than it forecast over the whole three-hour slot in the last hour.

    And it's still falling faster than Theresa May's poll rating after the dementia tax. The kerbs are now covered.

    Edit - on a close look ther's something else quite worrying. It's not quite pure snow. It's got some sleet. But it's freezing as soon as it hits the ground.
    It looks right to me and I reckon it's going to get worse. Glad I'm going to Southampton today rather than West Brom, Stoke, Liverpool or Manchester.
    I guess the United and Everton matches will be called off.

    Or there'll be a run on snoods
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 7,510
    Roger said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Completely off topic, there is a massive blizzard in Cannock right now. If as forecast it began at 5, then we've had over two inches in under two hours. If that keeps up all day today, then I'm expecting a nightmare at school tomorrow.

    https://www.netweather.tv/live-weather/radar

    Turn weather type on to see the snow.
    Interesting but unfortunately wrong. We've already had more snow than it forecast over the whole three-hour slot in the last hour.

    And it's still falling faster than Theresa May's poll rating after the dementia tax. The kerbs are now covered.

    Edit - on a close look ther's something else quite worrying. It's not quite pure snow. It's got some sleet. But it's freezing as soon as it hits the ground.
    It looks right to me and I reckon it's going to get worse. Glad I'm going to Southampton today rather than West Brom, Stoke, Liverpool or Manchester.
    I guess the United and Everton matches will be called off.

    Or there'll be a run on snoods
    The snow has only just reached Liverpool and Manchester. They should be able to keep the pitch playable (unless it snows during the game). The bigger issue is fan safety.

    And insert joke about Liverpool/Man Utd fans not being able to drive up from the South.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 3,244
    Fair play to TSE for highlighting Dianne’s foresight/lucky prediction.
    I agree with others that Jezza did better once the public focused on him during GE rather than reading about him in the papers.

    As for next leader - not convinced... I think she could get on the ballot if backed by Corbyn - but she did poorly the time she ran before...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 8,139
    rkrkrk said:

    Fair play to TSE for highlighting Dianne’s foresight/lucky prediction.
    I agree with others that Jezza did better once the public focused on him during GE rather than reading about him in the papers.

    As for next leader - not convinced... I think she could get on the ballot if backed by Corbyn - but she did poorly the time she ran before...

    At the moment, as with the Tories, there is no obvious alternative Labour leader who would command the backing of the PLP and the wider movement. Rayner and Thornberry, aside from the fact both are pretty clueless on their respective briefs, appear to have upset the Corbynistas recently. I wouldn't say the same of Ashworth who has consistently been the one Labour spokesperson more impressive than his opposite number, but he also seems to have upset them somehow. Macdonnell is intellectually head and shoulders above the rest, including most of the old Blair/Brown cabinet, but is widely loathed and has a political history even more embarrassing than Jezza's. Cat Smith is utterly unfit to be in the shadow cabinet and also has quite a marginal seat. Starmer is a risk for a number of reasons (and I'm not sure I'd agree he's done well in responding to Davis either). Clive Lewis appears to have shot his bolt. No ex-member of the Brown government stands even a faint chance now the left smell blood. That means Abbott seems a realistic possibility if she stands, but I'm doubtful if she would stand given how ill she appears to be.

    That leaves an awful lot riding on Corbyn not breaking down, and even allowing for his health, vigour and admirably healthy lifestyle he's 69 in a few months. While he's doing far better than anyone expected - probably including him - the ineptitude of his succession planning given his age is not suggestive of a man with a grasp of long term strategy.

    Labour are very fortunate to be facing a government in such disarray.
  • Good morning, everyone.

    Broken clock syndrome.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 18,176
    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Northerners have one or two snowflakes and they call it a blizzard.

    I call it a blizzard when I open the fanlight six inches and have to jump backwards because I've suddenly got a facefull of sleet.

    What would you call it?

    (Oh, and Cannock isn't North. It's Midlands.)
    The north officially starts at the Weaver Hills. Cannock Chase is officially an outpost of the north as it is wonderfully bleak and miserable, just like the official north. ;)
  • Labour’s next leader will be decided by Jon Lansman. I doubt it’ll be Dianne Abbott.
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,014
    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Northerners have one or two snowflakes and they call it a blizzard.

    I call it a blizzard when I open the fanlight six inches and have to jump backwards because I've suddenly got a facefull of sleet.

    What would you call it?

    (Oh, and Cannock isn't North. It's Midlands.)
    Stop digging [ except for the snow on your path!]. You might as well have written 'I am a snowflake' :)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 8,139
    felix said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Northerners have one or two snowflakes and they call it a blizzard.

    I call it a blizzard when I open the fanlight six inches and have to jump backwards because I've suddenly got a facefull of sleet.

    What would you call it?

    (Oh, and Cannock isn't North. It's Midlands.)
    Stop digging [ except for the snow on your path!]. You might as well have written 'I am a snowflake' :)
    I don't know whether I am one, but I was covered in them! :smiley:
  • Strange white stuff all over everything this morning and still tumbling from the sky. Despite Brexit. I blame Trump and Corbyn. But then I am a snowflake.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Labour’s next leader will be decided by Jon Lansman. I doubt it’ll be Dianne Abbott.

    I don't think she wants it or is well enough, or would be chosen if she did. Jess Phillips is the one.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 8,139

    Strange white stuff all over everything this morning and still tumbling from the sky. Despite Brexit. I blame Trump and Corbyn. But then I am a snowflake.

    Blown about by every gale and falling rapidly?
  • Labour’s next leader will be decided by Jon Lansman. I doubt it’ll be Dianne Abbott.

    I don't think she wants it or is well enough, or would be chosen if she did. Jess Phillips is the one.

    Not a hope in hell. She’s more likely to be deselected. The far left hate her.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,926
    ydoethur said:

    Completely off topic, there is a massive blizzard in Cannock right now. If as forecast it began at 5, then we've had over two inches in under two hours. If that keeps up all day today, then I'm expecting a nightmare at school tomorrow.

    Or a day off to spend on PB perhaps. We have had the lightest dusting, barely more than frost.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 13,417
    I think I might be stuck in London.
  • ydoethur said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Fair play to TSE for highlighting Dianne’s foresight/lucky prediction.
    I agree with others that Jezza did better once the public focused on him during GE rather than reading about him in the papers.

    As for next leader - not convinced... I think she could get on the ballot if backed by Corbyn - but she did poorly the time she ran before...

    At the moment, as with the Tories, there is no obvious alternative Labour leader who would command the backing of the PLP and the wider movement. Rayner and Thornberry, aside from the fact both are pretty clueless on their respective briefs, appear to have upset the Corbynistas recently. I wouldn't say the same of Ashworth who has consistently been the one Labour spokesperson more impressive than his opposite number, but he also seems to have upset them somehow. Macdonnell is intellectually head and shoulders above the rest, including most of the old Blair/Brown cabinet, but is widely loathed and has a political history even more embarrassing than Jezza's. Cat Smith is utterly unfit to be in the shadow cabinet and also has quite a marginal seat. Starmer is a risk for a number of reasons (and I'm not sure I'd agree he's done well in responding to Davis either). Clive Lewis appears to have shot his bolt. No ex-member of the Brown government stands even a faint chance now the left smell blood. That means Abbott seems a realistic possibility if she stands, but I'm doubtful if she would stand given how ill she appears to be.

    That leaves an awful lot riding on Corbyn not breaking down, and even allowing for his health, vigour and admirably healthy lifestyle he's 69 in a few months. While he's doing far better than anyone expected - probably including him - the ineptitude of his succession planning given his age is not suggestive of a man with a grasp of long term strategy.

    Labour are very fortunate to be facing a government in such disarray.
    There is an argument being put around that Rayner has grown into her brief albeit from such a low base that it would be near impossible not to improve. You were, I recall, pretty rude about Gove in education (correctly, he knows how to destroy not how to build). What’s your take?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,926

    Strange white stuff all over everything this morning and still tumbling from the sky. Despite Brexit. I blame Trump and Corbyn. But then I am a snowflake.

    Can't resist producing that article by the Independent: https://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/snowfalls-are-now-just-a-thing-of-the-past-the-independent.pdf
  • surbiton said:

    Any credit for Labour's upsurge in the polls goes to Corbyn [ and May's spectacular lack of people-sense ]. This is coming from a non-Corbynista. Only during the election campaign, where people saw Corbyn upfront a lot, did people warm to him.

    Abbott was just whistling in the wind. Her communication skills are terrible. However, she is respected hugely in the Black community.

    I really don't understand this. If a community wants a representative, they want that person to be competent and articulate, someone who can really make a difference for their community. Abbott is none of these. The Black community deserve far better (as do her constituents)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,926
    ydoethur said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Fair play to TSE for highlighting Dianne’s foresight/lucky prediction.
    I agree with others that Jezza did better once the public focused on him during GE rather than reading about him in the papers.

    As for next leader - not convinced... I think she could get on the ballot if backed by Corbyn - but she did poorly the time she ran before...

    At the moment, as with the Tories, there is no obvious alternative Labour leader who would command the backing of the PLP and the wider movement. Rayner and Thornberry, aside from the fact both are pretty clueless on their respective briefs, appear to have upset the Corbynistas recently. I wouldn't say the same of Ashworth who has consistently been the one Labour spokesperson more impressive than his opposite number, but he also seems to have upset them somehow. Macdonnell is intellectually head and shoulders above the rest, including most of the old Blair/Brown cabinet, but is widely loathed and has a political history even more embarrassing than Jezza's. Cat Smith is utterly unfit to be in the shadow cabinet and also has quite a marginal seat. Starmer is a risk for a number of reasons (and I'm not sure I'd agree he's done well in responding to Davis either). Clive Lewis appears to have shot his bolt. No ex-member of the Brown government stands even a faint chance now the left smell blood. That means Abbott seems a realistic possibility if she stands, but I'm doubtful if she would stand given how ill she appears to be.

    That leaves an awful lot riding on Corbyn not breaking down, and even allowing for his health, vigour and admirably healthy lifestyle he's 69 in a few months. While he's doing far better than anyone expected - probably including him - the ineptitude of his succession planning given his age is not suggestive of a man with a grasp of long term strategy.

    Labour are very fortunate to be facing a government in such disarray.
    What has Thornberry done to upset the Corbynistas? Apart from having the wrong trouser equipment she has been looking pretty much nailed on to me for most of this year.
  • Just a light dusting here but more expected during the day. Not quite inside (I think) the orange warning area but there's always a degree of fuzziness so I suspect it's a question of light snow or a bit more.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 8,139
    @AnExileinD4

    Gove was a dogmatist who had some ideas that were not bad in and of themselves but no idea of how to implement them effectively where they ran counter to reality. Rayner is a dogmatist with no ideas at all beyond 'me good, they bad' and no idea of how to implement them effectively.

    She has not grown into her brief and Labour's policy on various aspects of education insofar as it has one remains a shambles. About the only significant policy achievement she has was getting Corbyn's not at all a promise on tuition fees scrapped, but beyond that and some vague aspirations on extending adult educational opportunities (not a bad idea in itself) her policy seems to consist mostly of 'we'll do something different on pay, workload and governance but we don't know what it is yet.'

    Put bluntly, there are three issues facing education: funding shortages, accountability and staff recruitment. That's over and above the perennial issue of uneven standards and the difficulty of getting a good education to children from poorer backgrounds.

    For funding shortages there is no obvious cure. Pupil numbers are rising and spending increases are not keeping pace. More money is needed but where it comes from I will freely admit I don't know. Labour's policy was to tax private schools to provide it, but the rates they proposed were so penal most private schools would have closed and therefore there would have been no extra money and a sudden increase in numbers in the state sector.

    Accountability is easy, but nobody is willing to do it. Local authorities are not, surprisingly, particularly accountable, academy chains however are far less so. The easy solution is to leave the school under the control of parent governors. No government will do it because it would be embarrassing if it worked.

    Staff recruitment is linked to poor pay, but especially to insane hours spent planning and marking. The average teacher works around a 65 hour week, more if they have other responsibilities. The solution is to cut class sizes. The funding shortages are so acute the reverse is happening. And there is no obvious progress on this in sight.

    Standards would probably be improved by abolishing OFSTED, which started as an ego trip for Chris Woodhead, a failed teacher who was later also unmasked as a sex offender, and has gone downhill from there. It requires as much time to be spent doing paperwork as planning lessons, which is insane. And yet they still demand ever more impossible things, including, unforgettably, a lesson plan for each individual child in one school I worked in that they were threatening with special measures.

    I would vote for any party with practical ideas for sorting these out. Let me know if you ever come across one. Labour haven't even got to grips with the problems yet beyond teacher pay (which is I think more to do with their client vote in the public sector than anything else) never mind proposed realistic solutions.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 8,139
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Fair play to TSE for highlighting Dianne’s foresight/lucky prediction.
    I agree with others that Jezza did better once the public focused on him during GE rather than reading about him in the papers.

    As for next leader - not convinced... I think she could get on the ballot if backed by Corbyn - but she did poorly the time she ran before...

    At the moment, as with the Tories, there is no obvious alternative Labour leader who would command the backing of the PLP and the wider movement. Rayner and Thornberry, aside from the fact both are pretty clueless on their respective briefs, appear to have upset the Corbynistas recently. I wouldn't say the same of Ashworth who has consistently been the one Labour spokesperson more impressive than his opposite number, but he also seems to have upset them somehow. Macdonnell is intellectually head and shoulders above the rest, including most of the old Blair/Brown cabinet, but is widely loathed and has a political history even more embarrassing than Jezza's. Cat Smith is utterly unfit to be in the shadow cabinet and also has quite a marginal seat. Starmer is a risk for a number of reasons (and I'm not sure I'd agree he's done well in responding to Davis either). Clive Lewis appears to have shot his bolt. No ex-member of the Brown government stands even a faint chance now the left smell blood. That means Abbott seems a realistic possibility if she stands, but I'm doubtful if she would stand given how ill she appears to be.

    That leaves an awful lot riding on Corbyn not breaking down, and even allowing for his health, vigour and admirably healthy lifestyle he's 69 in a few months. While he's doing far better than anyone expected - probably including him - the ineptitude of his succession planning given his age is not suggestive of a man with a grasp of long term strategy.

    Labour are very fortunate to be facing a government in such disarray.
    What has Thornberry done to upset the Corbynistas? Apart from having the wrong trouser equipment she has been looking pretty much nailed on to me for most of this year.
    She criticised anti-Semitism masquerading as anti-Zionism and again called for those who question Israel's right to exist to be removed from Labour.

    While that is something (speaking as somebody who doesn't rate her) she should be applauded for it didn't exactly endear her to Momentum.

    It's also worth noting that this is an issue she's consistent on and it hasn't stopped her critcizing Israel where needed or supporting a Palestinian state. But that apparently isn't good enough.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 18,207

    Strange white stuff all over everything this morning and still tumbling from the sky. Despite Brexit. I blame Trump and Corbyn. But then I am a snowflake.

    Surely that's just God's way of showing his pleasure at the Brexit deal? :wink:
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 1,305
    Brexit is an education. It had never crossed my mind that non-EU countries would or could object to a special deal for the UK with the EU. It's obvious really but I am sure nobody has mentioned it so far. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/09/global-powers-lobby-to-stop-special-brexit-deal-for-uk
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 9,271
    edited December 2017
    Charles said:

    Strange white stuff all over everything this morning and still tumbling from the sky. Despite Brexit. I blame Trump and Corbyn. But then I am a snowflake.

    Surely that's just God's way of showing his pleasure at the Brexit deal? :wink:
    By bringing the country to a halt it is more likely to be evidence of a sense of humour and irony?

    There is proper snow settling in London, which wasn't forecast.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 18,207
    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    Strange white stuff all over everything this morning and still tumbling from the sky. Despite Brexit. I blame Trump and Corbyn. But then I am a snowflake.

    Surely that's just God's way of showing his pleasure at the Brexit deal? :wink:
    By bringing the country to a halt it is more likely to be evidence of a sense of humour and irony?
    Isn't it great how natural events can be interpreted in different ways...
  • Here in The Heart Of Rural England it's a couple of inches thick of the best quality snow I've seen in a long time. It wasn't snowing at all at half five this morning, but now it's a blizzard!

    This from the Guardian is relevant to the thread header- Nick Cohen raises some good points

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/09/what-would-it-take-for-labour-moderates-to-revolt
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,926
    ydoethur said:

    @AnExileinD4

    (snip)
    Standards would probably be improved by abolishing OFSTED, which started as an ego trip for Chris Woodhead, a failed teacher who was later also unmasked as a sex offender, and has gone downhill from there. It requires as much time to be spent doing paperwork as planning lessons, which is insane. And yet they still demand ever more impossible things, including, unforgettably, a lesson plan for each individual child in one school I worked in that they were threatening with special measures.

    I would vote for any party with practical ideas for sorting these out. Let me know if you ever come across one. Labour haven't even got to grips with the problems yet beyond teacher pay (which is I think more to do with their client vote in the public sector than anything else) never mind proposed realistic solutions.

    My wife works at an FE College which now employs more managers than lecturers. The main purpose of these managers seems to be to produce more paperwork for the lecturers to complete. This is supposed to provide quality assessment but is of course simply a tick box exercise that no one ever pays any attention to the results of. They also employ staff whose sole purpose is to win awards for the college. I am not joking.

    Much of what you say therefore seems familiar. The problem is how do you ensure better quality of teaching without killing it with bureaucracy. Its not easy. I went to a fairly good state school but there were many teachers simply coasting. My History teacher for example would have 20 questions relevant to a couple of chapters on the board when we came in. He would disappear for 30 minutes of the lesson and then pop back to ask people at random the questions to see whether we had read the chapters in his absence.

    I do fear that part of the problem has been that the teaching unions have not behaved like professional bodies. If incompetent teachers were winnowed out the need for bureaucracy would be diminished. Solicitors, accountants and others can all be penalised for inadequate professional service to the point they are no longer allowed to practice. An incompetent teacher is more likely to get promoted out of the classroom into a deputy head role.

    Its not easy but it does seem to me that the profession needs to start imposing discipline on itself as well as telling those not in it to bugger off. I admit I have no idea how we go down this road.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 9,830
    Gisela Stuart's piece in this survey of opinionl-leaders (all otherwise mostly predictable) is useful because it includes the HoC breakdown of what money we have agreed to spend when:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/10/brexit-q-and-a-politicians

    It appears that the gross amount is actually 80bn Euros, but we have the option to get 20bn back mostly through EU spending in Britain, reducing it to 60bn. That normally comes with a rider that Britain needs to fund it too - we have in the past turned down some opportunities for EU spending because the programme it would fund wasn't a priority for the British government.So the true figure does seem higher than the 40ish bn reported and possibly more than 60bn. The source for this is EU calculations, and as the British haven't published a brekdown it's hard to be sure ifit's right, but at least it's split up so we can see what we're talking about.

    With this scale of numbers it's hard to get a feeling for what's a lot and what isn't, but 60bn is about £800 a head, mostly front-loaded but a quarer of it after we leave(pensions etc.).
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 28,044
    Everyone gets lucky once.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 8,139
    DavidL said:

    I do fear that part of the problem has been that the teaching unions have not behaved like professional bodies. If incompetent teachers were winnowed out the need for bureaucracy would be diminished. Solicitors, accountants and others can all be penalised for inadequate professional service to the point they are no longer allowed to practice. An incompetent teacher is more likely to get promoted out of the classroom into a deputy head role.

    Its not easy but it does seem to me that the profession needs to start imposing discipline on itself as well as telling those not in it to bugger off. I admit I have no idea how we go down this road.

    There I would agree and I would add the merger of ATL and NUT is likely to make this worse not better. I resigned from ATL when it merged on principle.

    I'm afraid having lambasted Rayner and Gove I must admit I don't have easy solutions either. The problems are vast.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 8,139
    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    Strange white stuff all over everything this morning and still tumbling from the sky. Despite Brexit. I blame Trump and Corbyn. But then I am a snowflake.

    Surely that's just God's way of showing his pleasure at the Brexit deal? :wink:
    By bringing the country to a halt it is more likely to be evidence of a sense of humour and irony?

    There is proper snow settling in London, which wasn't forecast.
    So it will be lead item on today's news then? :wink:

    Chadsmoor have just told me they are cancelling their morning service. Which means my inability to grab five minutes somewhere in the week to practice is for once not an issue.

    I shall pull on my boots and see what's happening at St Luke's in Cannock instead.

    Have a good morning everyone and to echo the estimable @Jonathan stay safe if you venture out
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,926
    Boris is now in Iran. If he comes back with Zhagari-Ratcliffe the government is going to have had their best week since the election, arguably since May became PM.
  • Mr. L, I think that's pretty unlikely, to be honest.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,926

    Mr. L, I think that's pretty unlikely, to be honest.

    Quite the reverse. I don't think he would have gone unless he had been tipped the wink.
  • Mr. L, one shudders to think what Officer Crabtree would have to say about that.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,532
    Keir Starmer effectively defending the government's position nirtoring regulations for a trade deal plus with a longer transition period staying inside the single market and customs union
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,926

    Mr. L, one shudders to think what Officer Crabtree would have to say about that.

    Iran have a situation where Trump is threatening to tear up their agreement and be much more aggressive. Given his Jerusalem move this has to be taken seriously. Iran's proxy wars with the Saudis are also becoming hotter. The UK has said they want to keep the current nuclear agreement and have modest influence with the Saudis. We have expressed concerns already about the atrocities in Yemen. There is much to be said for improved relations for both sides. Boris just needs to be clear about what he wants in exchange.
  • Starmer all over the place on Marr - cake and eat it time or as Marr says a vassel state of the EU
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 9,271
    edited December 2017
    Even now the BBC has only extended the snow warning as far south as Essex and Hertfordshire.

    Snow on the ground in London before Xmas is very rare. Indeed for the southern UK generally, snowfall is statistically more likely at Easter than at Christmas.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,926
    IanB2 said:

    Even now the BBC has only extended the snow warning as far south as Essex and Hertfordshire.

    Snow on the ground in London before Xmas is very rare. Indeed for the UK generally, snowfall is statistically more likely at Easter than at Christmas.

    I thought it only happened in chick flicks myself.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,532
    Diane Abbott is a shrewd veteran politician whatever we may think about some of her strange comments
  • Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    Strange white stuff all over everything this morning and still tumbling from the sky. Despite Brexit. I blame Trump and Corbyn. But then I am a snowflake.

    Surely that's just God's way of showing his pleasure at the Brexit deal? :wink:
    By bringing the country to a halt it is more likely to be evidence of a sense of humour and irony?
    Isn't it great how natural events can be interpreted in different ways...
    You mean, like the morning TSE proposes Diane Abbott as Prime Minister, the nation grinds to a shuddering halt?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 9,271
    HYUFD said:

    Diane Abbott is a shrewd veteran politician whatever we may think about some of her strange comments

    She has certainly been around a long time.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,532
    edited December 2017
    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    Strange white stuff all over everything this morning and still tumbling from the sky. Despite Brexit. I blame Trump and Corbyn. But then I am a snowflake.

    Surely that's just God's way of showing his pleasure at the Brexit deal? :wink:
    By bringing the country to a halt it is more likely to be evidence of a sense of humour and irony?

    There is proper snow settling in London, which wasn't forecast.
    So it will be lead item on today's news then? :wink:

    Chadsmoor have just told me they are cancelling their morning service. Which means my inability to grab five minutes somewhere in the week to practice is for once not an issue.

    I shall pull on my boots and see what's happening at St Luke's in Cannock instead.

    Have a good morning everyone and to echo the estimable @Jonathan stay safe if you venture out
    Snowing hard here in Essex too, think I will walk rather than drive into town later.

    Supposed to be going to a concert later so hope the tube is alright
  • HYUFD said:

    Keir Starmer effectively defending the government's position nirtoring regulations for a trade deal plus with a longer transition period staying inside the single market and customs union

    He is effectively saying he will accept the Norway option as Marr's commented, accepting UK as a vassal state.

    To be honest if this was the end result I would rather stay in. No control over free movement, our laws, and unable to do our own trade deals is pointless
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,532
    edited December 2017
    ydoethur said:

    @AnExileinD4

    Gove was a dogmatist who had some ideas that were not bad in and of themselves but no idea of how to implement them effectively where they ran counter to reality. Rayner is a dogmatist with no ideas at all beyond 'me good, they bad' and no idea of how to implement them effectively.

    She has not grown into her brief and Labour's policy on various aspects of education insofar as it has one remains a shambles. About the only significant state sector.

    Accountability is easy, but nobody is willing to do it. Local authorities are not, surprisingly, particularly accountable, academy chains however are far less so. The easy solution is to leave the school under the control of parent governors. No government will do it because it would be embarrassing if it worked.

    Staff recruitment is linked to poor pay, but especially to insane hours spent planning and marking. The average teacher works around a 65 hour week, more if they have other responsibilities. The solution is to cut class sizes. The funding shortages are so acute the reverse is happening. And there is no obvious progress on this in sight.

    Standards would probably be improved by abolishing OFSTED, which started as an ego trip for Chris Woodhead, a failed teacher who was later also unmasked as a sex offender, and has gone downhill from there. It requires as much time to be spent doing paperwork as planning lessons, which is insane. And yet they still demand ever more impossible things, including, unforgettably, a lesson plan for each individual child in one school I worked in that they were threatening with special measures.

    I would vote for any party with practical ideas for sorting these out. Let me know if you ever come across one. Labour haven't even got to grips with the problems yet beyond teacher pay (which is I think more to do with their client vote in the public sector than anything else) never mind proposed realistic solutions.

    Interesting points but Woodhead was not a 'failed teacher' as such but taught for a number of years including as a Head of English before moving into teacher education and standards nor was he a sex offender though he did have a relationship with one of his former pupils. He also founded the Cognita group of small groups of private schools and he bravely worked until the end despite MS
  • BudGBudG Posts: 606

    Starmer all over the place on Marr - cake and eat it time or as Marr says a vassel state of the EU

    Thing is, you CAN have your cake and eat it, providing you continually buy more cake which the EU will be happy to sell.. at a price. However there will come a tipping point at which the British public will not countenance paying any more.
  • HYUFD said:

    Diane Abbott is a shrewd veteran politician whatever we may think about some of her strange comments

    What were you drinking last evening? Her name is a synonym for 'useless'!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,532

    HYUFD said:

    Keir Starmer effectively defending the government's position nirtoring regulations for a trade deal plus with a longer transition period staying inside the single market and customs union

    He is effectively saying he will accept the Norway option as Marr's commented, accepting UK as a vassal state.

    To be honest if this was the end result I would rather stay in. No control over free movement, our laws, and unable to do our own trade deals is pointless
    He has not permanently committed to the Norway option but certainly wants a longer transition than the Tories do
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 9,271
    On topic, has Vince made any predictions?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 9,271
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Keir Starmer effectively defending the government's position nirtoring regulations for a trade deal plus with a longer transition period staying inside the single market and customs union

    He is effectively saying he will accept the Norway option as Marr's commented, accepting UK as a vassal state.

    To be honest if this was the end result I would rather stay in. No control over free movement, our laws, and unable to do our own trade deals is pointless
    He has not permanently committed to the Norway option but certainly wants a longer transition than the Tories do
    The key is to get the transition extended beyond the GE.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,532
    IanB2 said:

    Even now the BBC has only extended the snow warning as far south as Essex and Hertfordshire.

    Snow on the ground in London before Xmas is very rare. Indeed for the southern UK generally, snowfall is statistically more likely at Easter than at Christmas.

    Only if Easter is in March I should think, unlikely by April
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,509

    HYUFD said:

    Keir Starmer effectively defending the government's position nirtoring regulations for a trade deal plus with a longer transition period staying inside the single market and customs union

    He is effectively saying he will accept the Norway option as Marr's commented, accepting UK as a vassal state.

    To be honest if this was the end result I would rather stay in. No control over free movement, our laws, and unable to do our own trade deals is pointless
    How do you think this is going to turn out? Realistically, without resorting to nostalgia.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,532
    Davis says regulatory alignment is focused on outcomes not methods but as Barnier says does not mean single market or customs union membership
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 9,271
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Even now the BBC has only extended the snow warning as far south as Essex and Hertfordshire.

    Snow on the ground in London before Xmas is very rare. Indeed for the southern UK generally, snowfall is statistically more likely at Easter than at Christmas.

    Only if Easter is in March I should think, unlikely by April
    The statistic is for Easter Monday v Christmas Day.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,948
    ydoethur said:

    @AnExileinD4

    Gove was a dogmatist who had some ideas that were not bad in and of themselves but no idea of how to implement them effectively where they ran counter to reality. Rayner is a dogmatist with no ideas at all beyond 'me good, they bad' and no idea of how to implement them effectively.

    She has not grown into her brief and Labour's policy on various aspects of education insofar as it has one remains a shambles. About the only significant policy achievement she has was getting Corbyn's not at all a promise on tuition fees scrapped, but beyond that and some vague aspirations on extending adult educational opportunities (not a bad idea in itself) her policy seems to consist mostly of 'we'll do something different on pay, workload and governance but we don't know what it is yet.'

    Put bluntly, there are three issues facing education: funding shortages, accountability and staff recruitment. That's over and above the perennial issue of uneven standards and the difficulty of getting a good education to children from poorer backgrounds.

    For funding shortages there is no obvious cure. Pupil numbers are rising and spending increases are not keeping pace. More money is needed but where it comes from I will freely admit I don't know. Labour's policy was to tax private schools to provide it, but the rates they proposed were so penal most private schools would have closed and therefore there would have been no extra money and a sudden increase in numbers in the state sector.

    Accountability is easy, but nobody is willing to do it. Local authorities are not, surprisingly, particularly accountable, academy chains however are far less so. The easy solution is to leave the school under the control of parent governors. No government will do it because it would be embarrassing if it worked.

    Staff recruitment is linked to poor pay, but especially to insane hours spent planning and marking. The average teacher works around a 65 hour week, more if they have other responsibilities. The solution is to cut class sizes. The funding shortages are so acute the reverse is happening. And there is no obvious progress on this in sight.

    Standards would probably be improved by abolishing OFSTED, which started as an ego trip for Chris Woodhead, a failed teacher who was later also unmasked as a sex offender, and has gone downhill from there. It requires as much time to be spent doing paperwork as planning lessons, which is insane. And yet they still demand ever more impossible things, including, unforgettably, a lesson plan for each individual child in one school I worked in that they were threatening with special measures...

    Make that man education secretary !

    One minor insanity you missed out was the abolition of national key stage assessment standards along with the expectation that every school develop their own.
  • Just watching David Davis on Marr. How totally uninspiring this man is.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 15,410
    What is this “snow” of which you speak?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,532
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Even now the BBC has only extended the snow warning as far south as Essex and Hertfordshire.

    Snow on the ground in London before Xmas is very rare. Indeed for the southern UK generally, snowfall is statistically more likely at Easter than at Christmas.

    Only if Easter is in March I should think, unlikely by April
    The statistic is for Easter Monday v Christmas Day.
    Winter normally starts in December and ends about the 20th of March so as I said if Easter is in March that is not that surprising
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,532
    edited December 2017

    Just watching David Davis on Marr. How totally uninspiring this man is.

    He isn't supposed to be inspiring he is supposed to be negotiating with Barnier who is hardly inspiring himself. As for his future leadership prospects those depend on his negotiating a deal by Brexit.

    He has confirmed he wants a free trade deal with the best of Canada and South Korea's deals with the EU plus something on services
  • Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Keir Starmer effectively defending the government's position nirtoring regulations for a trade deal plus with a longer transition period staying inside the single market and customs union

    He is effectively saying he will accept the Norway option as Marr's commented, accepting UK as a vassal state.

    To be honest if this was the end result I would rather stay in. No control over free movement, our laws, and unable to do our own trade deals is pointless
    How do you think this is going to turn out? Realistically, without resorting to nostalgia.
    First of all I have no nostalgia and utterly reject Farage's 'nostalgia' attitudes

    I do not like the federalist aim of Europe which, even this week, Schulz has made full federalism as a condition on a coalition with Merkel.

    I do want immigration , but I want it controlled, I do want us to decide on how our money is spent, and I would like us to be able to do independent trade deals, and our laws as sovereign.

    Realistically I hope for a deal which enables the last paragraph, and allows a transition period of 2 to 3 years.

    However, who knows where it will end
  • MJWMJW Posts: 250
    ydoethur said:

    rkrkrk said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Fair play to TSE for highlighting Dianne’s foresight/lucky prediction.

    What has Thornberry done to upset the Corbynistas? Apart from having the wrong trouser equipment she has been looking pretty much nailed on to me for most of this year.
    She criticised anti-Semitism masquerading as anti-Zionism and again called for those who question Israel's right to exist to be removed from Labour.

    While that is something (speaking as somebody who doesn't rate her) she should be applauded for it didn't exactly endear her to Momentum.

    It's also worth noting that this is an issue she's consistent on and it hasn't stopped her critcizing Israel where needed or supporting a Palestinian state. But that apparently isn't good enough.
    There's also a case of tall poppy syndrome. For the hardcore in Momentum a genuine soft left rival to Corbyn who might be better at uniting the party while keeping much of the left-wing policies is a threat because really he needs to hang around until they've fully taken over the party. You see the harshest words coming from the younger hard left activists with one eye on becoming MPs or party officials soon enough. Settling back to normality with Thornberry or Rayner really isn't in their interest, so any word out of place and they're jumped on.

    It's a big danger for Labour that if the government can calm things down for six months or so, the fragile unity in the party breaks as the Corbynistas with their own interests to advance start the civil war up again, as without the outside force of potential victory and anger at Tory uselessness, the blame game and internal battles start again.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,532
    edited December 2017
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Keir Starmer effectively defending the government's position nirtoring regulations for a trade deal plus with a longer transition period staying inside the single market and customs union

    He is effectively saying he will accept the Norway option as Marr's commented, accepting UK as a vassal state.

    To be honest if this was the end result I would rather stay in. No control over free movement, our laws, and unable to do our own trade deals is pointless
    He has not permanently committed to the Norway option but certainly wants a longer transition than the Tories do
    The key is to get the transition extended beyond the GE.
    Labour may or may not do that, the Tories will want to ensure the transition and free movement are ended by 2022, the last possible date for the next general election and so will keep the 2021 end date for the transition May has set out.
  • HYUFD said:

    Just watching David Davis on Marr. How totally uninspiring this man is.

    He isn't supposed to be inspiring he is supposed to be negotiating with Barnier who is hardly inspiring himself. As for his future leadership prospects those depend on his negotiating a deal by Brexit.

    He has confirmed he wants a free trade deal with the best of Canada and South Korea's deals with the EU plus something on services
    I thought it was TMay who negotiated - not DDavis. She's the one getting the plaudits.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 1,853
    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    Even now the BBC has only extended the snow warning as far south as Essex and Hertfordshire.

    Snow on the ground in London before Xmas is very rare. Indeed for the UK generally, snowfall is statistically more likely at Easter than at Christmas.

    I thought it only happened in chick flicks myself.
    Has just stopped in Acton (west London). Not much, but there is a distinct white covering on the rooftops. From memory, I think this is the first significant snowfall we have had here since early 2013.









  • stevefstevef Posts: 622
    But look at Abbot's other statements -all of which are not analyses but ideological positions. A topped clock is right twice a day.

    But no, do not dismiss predictions that seem outlandish and out of step with what appears to be true at the time: which is why I say again that Jeremy Corbyn will lose the next general election.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,532
    edited December 2017

    HYUFD said:

    Just watching David Davis on Marr. How totally uninspiring this man is.

    He isn't supposed to be inspiring he is supposed to be negotiating with Barnier who is hardly inspiring himself. As for his future leadership prospects those depend on his negotiating a deal by Brexit.

    He has confirmed he wants a free trade deal with the best of Canada and South Korea's deals with the EU plus something on services
    I thought it was TMay who negotiated - not DDavis. She's the one getting the plaudits.
    They both did. What the completion of phase 1 has done is ensure May stays until 2019, what Davis needs to do is to complete phase 2 to have a chance of leading the Tories once May steps down as is likely in late 2019 or early 2020
  • HYUFD said:

    Keir Starmer effectively defending the government's position nirtoring regulations for a trade deal plus with a longer transition period staying inside the single market and customs union

    He is effectively saying he will accept the Norway option as Marr's commented, accepting UK as a vassal state.

    To be honest if this was the end result I would rather stay in. No control over free movement, our laws, and unable to do our own trade deals is pointless
    Thankfully that is not Starmer's decision to make.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 19,519
    IanB2 said:

    Even now the BBC has only extended the snow warning as far south as Essex and Hertfordshire.

    Snow on the ground in London before Xmas is very rare. Indeed for the southern UK generally, snowfall is statistically more likely at Easter than at Christmas.

    We've got a huge snowfall in Luton.
  • stevefstevef Posts: 622
    Neil Kinnock's Labour was ahead (often way ahead) in the polls of Thatcher's Tories for 8 out of the 9 years he was leader. Unlike Corbyn he won Tory marginal seats on huge swings at by elections.

    And he lost both general elections. As will Corbyn.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,948

    Just watching David Davis on Marr. How totally uninspiring this man is.

    A how many politicians do we possess who are in the least bit inspiring, anyway ?
    (nb that is not asked in defense of DD...)
  • FishingFishing Posts: 298
    edited December 2017
    stevef said:

    Neil Kinnock's Labour was ahead (often way ahead) in the polls of Thatcher's Tories for 8 out of the 9 years he was leader. Unlike Corbyn he won Tory marginal seats on huge swings at by elections.

    And he lost both general elections. As will Corbyn.

    Hope you're right. But don't forget the Conservatives in those days had a decent leader. Actually, a remarkable one.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 9,830

    What is this “snow” of which you speak?

    +1. Surrey is grey and uneventful (as usual).
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 5,970
    Good morning all.

    Nothing but howling wind and rain here. My inner child is disappointed. More apropos, Diane Abbott is ghastly, you heard it here first. A bientot.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 1,853
    Nigelb said:

    Just watching David Davis on Marr. How totally uninspiring this man is.

    A how many politicians do we possess who are in the least bit inspiring, anyway ?
    (nb that is not asked in defense of DD...)
    I was never particularly enamoured by Clegg, Cameron, Osborne, Miliband (E) - they all had flaws - but they are titans in comparison to the current lot.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,532
    edited December 2017
    stevef said:

    Neil Kinnock's Labour was ahead (often way ahead) in the polls of Thatcher's Tories for 8 out of the 9 years he was leader. Unlike Corbyn he won Tory marginal seats on huge swings at by elections.

    And he lost both general elections. As will Corbyn.

    Of the final 1992 General election polls all but Gallup (with just a 0.5% Tory lead) had Labour ahead yet Major got a majority of 21 and a Tory lead of 7% over Kinnock's Labour once all the results were in.

    Despite 2015 and 2017, 1992 remains the worst forecast general election ever by UK pollsters, at least in 2015 half and in 2017 all the pollsters had the Tories ahead even if they underestimated them in 2015 and overestimated them in 2017.
    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/historical-polls/voting-intention-1987-1992
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 5,970
    edited December 2017
    Nigelb said:

    Just watching David Davis on Marr. How totally uninspiring this man is.

    A how many politicians do we possess who are in the least bit inspiring, anyway ?
    (nb that is not asked in defense of DD...)
    Perhaps its partly a function of aging; I'm older and more experienced than many contemporary politicians. The politicians of my youth also had hinterlands reaching back to WWII and beyond, which I think gave them more breadth and gravitas.

    I do try to resist the 'Good Old Days' syndrome; there is no better time to be alive than right now, but we do seem to have poorer politicos as a minor downside.
This discussion has been closed.