Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » How Brexit means different things to different groups and peop

SystemSystem Posts: 5,841
edited December 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » How Brexit means different things to different groups and people

Follow @MSmithsonPB // < ![CDATA[ // < ![CDATA[ xfunction(d,s,id){var js,fjs=d.getElementsByTagName(s)[0];if(!d.getElementById(id)){js=d.createElement(s);js.id=id;js.src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js";fjs.parentNode.insertBefore(js,fjs);}}(document,"script","twitter-wjs"); // ]]>

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 5,129
    Always reassuring to wake up to an England collapse...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 5,129
    Australia's turn to make runs for fun... and it doesn't look as though we'll be hurrying them for pace.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 5,129
    Wicket from nowhere !
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,796
    you feeling lonely Nigel, having to talk to yourself.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 16,269
    malcolmg said:

    you feeling lonely Nigel, having to talk to yourself.

    malc you big girl, seasons greetings

    are you caught up in the latest cull ?
  • "Should the United Kingdom Remain a member of the European Union or Leave the European Union"

    Anything else that people chose to infer from that question is their business. Brexit was explicitly defined as leaving the EU and nothing else.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,796

    malcolmg said:

    you feeling lonely Nigel, having to talk to yourself.

    malc you big girl, seasons greetings

    are you caught up in the latest cull ?
    Hello Alan, A Merry Christmas to you too.

    I am impervious to it so far. Big one this time though I must say.
    If I was a boy I would not be hanging about. How about your
    other half is she OK.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,796
    not many out of their beds this morning
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 16,269
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    you feeling lonely Nigel, having to talk to yourself.

    malc you big girl, seasons greetings

    are you caught up in the latest cull ?
    Hello Alan, A Merry Christmas to you too.

    I am impervious to it so far. Big one this time though I must say.
    If I was a boy I would not be hanging about. How about your
    other half is she OK.
    shes sounding uncomfortable for the first time given the scale of it

    but loads of people round her sound as if it's the last straw and are going for it, as ever just the type of people they need to keep
  • Christmas liver-pounding starts today. Could get nasty. Hopefully, I’ll make it through to the other side without too much damage.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 16,269

    Christmas liver-pounding starts today. Could get nasty. Hopefully, I’ll make it through to the other side without too much damage.

    seasons greeting SO, when do you stop work ?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,416
    So England lost 6-35.

    Back to the three Shredded Wheat regime tomorrow, eh lads?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 19,294
    malcolmg said:

    not many out of their beds this morning

    I've been out of bed since 4, but have had better things to do than go on PB. ;)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 19,294

    So England lost 6-35.

    Back to the three Shredded Wheat regime tomorrow, eh lads?

    Bring them all back home now and concede the series. Our cricketers are, as a group, a bunch of unprofessional idiots.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,796

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    you feeling lonely Nigel, having to talk to yourself.

    malc you big girl, seasons greetings

    are you caught up in the latest cull ?
    Hello Alan, A Merry Christmas to you too.

    I am impervious to it so far. Big one this time though I must say.
    If I was a boy I would not be hanging about. How about your
    other half is she OK.
    shes sounding uncomfortable for the first time given the scale of it

    but loads of people round her sound as if it's the last straw and are going for it, as ever just the type of people they need to keep
    Yes people are walking now before it comes and given its statutory minimum , no point in waiting for it. Crazy days. Her side of business is much bigger than mine , not that many can be sure they are safe now. I am a dying breed.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 16,269
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    you feeling lonely Nigel, having to talk to yourself.

    malc you big girl, seasons greetings

    are you caught up in the latest cull ?
    Hello Alan, A Merry Christmas to you too.

    I am impervious to it so far. Big one this time though I must say.
    If I was a boy I would not be hanging about. How about your
    other half is she OK.
    shes sounding uncomfortable for the first time given the scale of it

    but loads of people round her sound as if it's the last straw and are going for it, as ever just the type of people they need to keep
    Yes people are walking now before it comes and given its statutory minimum , no point in waiting for it. Crazy days. Her side of business is much bigger than mine , not that many can be sure they are safe now. I am a dying breed.
    yup

    its just the usual guff of sending the jobs overseas so the CEO can increase his bonus

    UK gets it in the neck because were easy to ditch, but they wont do the same in France or Germany
  • Christmas liver-pounding starts today. Could get nasty. Hopefully, I’ll make it through to the other side without too much damage.

    seasons greeting SO, when do you stop work ?

    And to you!

    Officially stop next Thursday. But taking my team out this lunchtime, then a management bash on Tuesday. Basically, we’re done for 2017 after this morning! You?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 16,269

    Christmas liver-pounding starts today. Could get nasty. Hopefully, I’ll make it through to the other side without too much damage.

    seasons greeting SO, when do you stop work ?

    And to you!

    Officially stop next Thursday. But taking my team out this lunchtime, then a management bash on Tuesday. Basically, we’re done for 2017 after this morning! You?
    I'm stopping Weds next week

    told my factory guys that when they have all their orders delivered they can go off on hols, so they tend to come in for a few extra hours to clear the decks and then get a longer break with their families. So we'll shut up shop weds luch time.

    it;s been a fun year so I really need a break to recharge the batteries
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 1,902

    Christmas liver-pounding starts today. Could get nasty. Hopefully, I’ll make it through to the other side without too much damage.

    seasons greeting SO, when do you stop work ?

    And to you!

    Officially stop next Thursday. But taking my team out this lunchtime, then a management bash on Tuesday. Basically, we’re done for 2017 after this morning! You?
    I'm stopping Weds next week

    told my factory guys that when they have all their orders delivered they can go off on hols, so they tend to come in for a few extra hours to clear the decks and then get a longer break with their families. So we'll shut up shop weds luch time.

    it;s been a fun year so I really need a break to recharge the batteries
    Seems like a very enlightened policy.

    I agree with the Archbishop of Canterbury; let's have a Brexit truce over Christmas.
  • Good morning, everyone.

    Interesting article on alcohol:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-42353206

    Contrary to my own experience, to be honest, but there we are. Not everyone can be blessed with the self-restraint of a morris dancer.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 10,725
    As everyone finishes work Old King & Mrs C start a hectic round of visits from and to children and grandchildren, plus this year hospital trips for investigations.... scans etc.... for Mrs C. OK is, ATM, waiting for another appointment, but that won’t be now until the New Year.
    Working offspring/grand-offspring seem to be finishing any time from Monday onwards. Think everyone’s stopped by Friday next.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 5,129
    malcolmg said:

    you feeling lonely Nigel, having to talk to yourself.

    Actually, I find I'm excellent company.
    :smile:
  • Christmas liver-pounding starts today. Could get nasty. Hopefully, I’ll make it through to the other side without too much damage.

    seasons greeting SO, when do you stop work ?

    And to you!

    Officially stop next Thursday. But taking my team out this lunchtime, then a management bash on Tuesday. Basically, we’re done for 2017 after this morning! You?
    I'm stopping Weds next week

    told my factory guys that when they have all their orders delivered they can go off on hols, so they tend to come in for a few extra hours to clear the decks and then get a longer break with their families. So we'll shut up shop weds luch time.

    it;s been a fun year so I really need a break to recharge the batteries

    Ditto. We can spend more time on PB ;-)

    Here’s wishing you a very Merry Xmas and Happy New Year.

    You Leave-backing bastard!!

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,624
    Some Remainers want to stay in the single market or even reverse Brexit, some Leavers want to go straight to WTO terms and not pay the EU a penny. However most voters want a FTA with the EU that ends free movement which is precisely what May is aiming for
  • What is this "finishing work for Christmas" that everyone is talking about?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited December 2017
    HYUFD said:

    Some Remainers want to stay in the single market or even reverse Brexit, some Leavers want to go straight to WTO terms and not pay the EU a penny. However most voters want a FTA with the EU that ends free movement which is precisely what May is aiming for

    I don't remember that being on the ballot paper :)
  • HYUFD said:

    Some Remainers want to stay in the single market or even reverse Brexit, some Leavers want to go straight to WTO terms and not pay the EU a penny. However most voters want a FTA with the EU that ends free movement which is precisely what May is aiming for

    I don't remember that being on the ballot paper :)
    That's why I don't get this hard/soft/medium-done Brexit business. Whatever type of Brexit you get, Government has done what it was told. It got us out of the EU. Job done.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,624
    Luxembourg PM confirms Parliament will not be able to send May back to renegotiate Brexit deal

    https://mobile.twitter.com/adamfleming/status/941268474986364930
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,624
    edited December 2017

    HYUFD said:

    Some Remainers want to stay in the single market or even reverse Brexit, some Leavers want to go straight to WTO terms and not pay the EU a penny. However most voters want a FTA with the EU that ends free movement which is precisely what May is aiming for

    I don't remember that being on the ballot paper :)
    80% voted for Labour and the Tories manifesto commitments to leave the single market and end free movement and get a trade deal with the EU after a transition period in June, so yes the general election means it has now been on the ballot paper

    The LDs commitment to stay permanently in the single market and the UKIP commitment to go to WTO terms and not agree any regulatory alignment with the EU were both soundly rejected
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 12,463

    HYUFD said:

    Some Remainers want to stay in the single market or even reverse Brexit, some Leavers want to go straight to WTO terms and not pay the EU a penny. However most voters want a FTA with the EU that ends free movement which is precisely what May is aiming for

    I don't remember that being on the ballot paper :)
    That's why I don't get this hard/soft/medium-done Brexit business. Whatever type of Brexit you get, Government has done what it was told. It got us out of the EU. Job done.
    That such a transparently obvious point needs to be made on a daily basis here on PB doesn't fill me with a great deal of hope about the process.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 1,723
    HYUFD said:

    Some Remainers want to stay in the single market or even reverse Brexit, some Leavers want to go straight to WTO terms and not pay the EU a penny. However most voters want a FTA with the EU that ends free movement which is precisely what May is aiming for

    Sounds good, and in a way who wouldn't want that? I don't know if you are basing that opinion on your gut or polling data but I'd go along with either. The trouble is that a free trade agreement and free movement are intrinsically bound up together, and not just because the EU says so. If we have really strict controls on immigration, strong enough to put up domestic wages, we won't get much trade even if we have a very favourable deal. Even that is an oversimplification - an economy is a complex machine full of feedback loops. We can't just do what we want and hope it will all work out for the best. I am afraid this is an illustration of why plebiscites are undemocratic and why political leaders need to create a vision and get people to follow it through all its details. Poring over opinion polls and triangulating the results into a saleable political product just doesn't cut it.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,810

    HYUFD said:

    Some Remainers want to stay in the single market or even reverse Brexit, some Leavers want to go straight to WTO terms and not pay the EU a penny. However most voters want a FTA with the EU that ends free movement which is precisely what May is aiming for

    Sounds good, and in a way who wouldn't want that? I don't know if you are basing that opinion on your gut or polling data but I'd go along with either. The trouble is that a free trade agreement and free movement are intrinsically bound up together, and not just because the EU says so. If we have really strict controls on immigration, strong enough to put up domestic wages, we won't get much trade even if we have a very favourable deal. Even that is an oversimplification - an economy is a complex machine full of feedback loops. We can't just do what we want and hope it will all work out for the best. I am afraid this is an illustration of why plebiscites are undemocratic and why political leaders need to create a vision and get people to follow it through all its details. Poring over opinion polls and triangulating the results into a saleable political product just doesn't cut it.
    Does Canada have to accept freedom of movement?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,130

    HYUFD said:

    Some Remainers want to stay in the single market or even reverse Brexit, some Leavers want to go straight to WTO terms and not pay the EU a penny. However most voters want a FTA with the EU that ends free movement which is precisely what May is aiming for

    I don't remember that being on the ballot paper :)
    That's why I don't get this hard/soft/medium-done Brexit business. Whatever type of Brexit you get, Government has done what it was told. It got us out of the EU. Job done.
    To an extent although some of the more extreme BINO proposals ignore the spirit of the vote
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,624

    HYUFD said:

    Some Remainers want to stay in the single market or even reverse Brexit, some Leavers want to go straight to WTO terms and not pay the EU a penny. However most voters want a FTA with the EU that ends free movement which is precisely what May is aiming for

    Sounds good, and in a way who wouldn't want that? I don't know if you are basing that opinion on your gut or polling data but I'd go along with either. The trouble is that a free trade agreement and free movement are intrinsically bound up together, and not just because the EU says so. If we have really strict controls on immigration, strong enough to put up domestic wages, we won't get much trade even if we have a very favourable deal. Even that is an oversimplification - an economy is a complex machine full of feedback loops. We can't just do what we want and hope it will all work out for the best. I am afraid this is an illustration of why plebiscites are undemocratic and why political leaders need to create a vision and get people to follow it through all its details. Poring over opinion polls and triangulating the results into a saleable political product just doesn't cut it.
    They aren't, only the single market needs free movement
  • HYUFD said:

    Luxembourg PM confirms Parliament will not be able to send May back to renegotiate Brexit deal

    https://mobile.twitter.com/adamfleming/status/941268474986364930

    File under 'No sh*t' Sherlock....

    The vote was just illogical stupid gesture politics.

    There will be a deal. It will be 'take it or leave it'.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,130

    HYUFD said:

    Some Remainers want to stay in the single market or even reverse Brexit, some Leavers want to go straight to WTO terms and not pay the EU a penny. However most voters want a FTA with the EU that ends free movement which is precisely what May is aiming for

    Sounds good, and in a way who wouldn't want that? I don't know if you are basing that opinion on your gut or polling data but I'd go along with either. The trouble is that a free trade agreement and free movement are intrinsically bound up together, and not just because the EU says so. If we have really strict controls on immigration, strong enough to put up domestic wages, we won't get much trade even if we have a very favourable deal. Even that is an oversimplification - an economy is a complex machine full of feedback loops. We can't just do what we want and hope it will all work out for the best. I am afraid this is an illustration of why plebiscites are undemocratic and why political leaders need to create a vision and get people to follow it through all its details. Poring over opinion polls and triangulating the results into a saleable political product just doesn't cut it.
    It's not a simplification it's just wrong

    Most trade deals involve a deal on business visas.

    None (that I am aware of) involve free movement of people
  • HYUFD said:

    Some Remainers want to stay in the single market or even reverse Brexit, some Leavers want to go straight to WTO terms and not pay the EU a penny. However most voters want a FTA with the EU that ends free movement which is precisely what May is aiming for

    I don't remember that being on the ballot paper :)
    Invisible ink I believe. Only those initiated in the true faith knew to waft it over a lighter to get the full fat question.
  • HYUFD said:

    Luxembourg PM confirms Parliament will not be able to send May back to renegotiate Brexit deal

    https://mobile.twitter.com/adamfleming/status/941268474986364930

    The PM of Luxembourg ffs! Someone who ought to have as much clout as the Mayor of Hartlepool trying to tell our sovereign parliament what it can and can't do.
  • Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Some Remainers want to stay in the single market or even reverse Brexit, some Leavers want to go straight to WTO terms and not pay the EU a penny. However most voters want a FTA with the EU that ends free movement which is precisely what May is aiming for

    I don't remember that being on the ballot paper :)
    That's why I don't get this hard/soft/medium-done Brexit business. Whatever type of Brexit you get, Government has done what it was told. It got us out of the EU. Job done.
    To an extent although some of the more extreme BINO proposals ignore the spirit of the vote
    What spirit? There were as many notions of Brexit as there were voters.

    If there was a 'spirit' at all I should say that there was a sort of curmudgeonly 'eff 'em all attitude.

    That was perfectly understandable but difficult to distil a coherent foreign and economic policy out of it.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 2,650

    HYUFD said:

    Some Remainers want to stay in the single market or even reverse Brexit, some Leavers want to go straight to WTO terms and not pay the EU a penny. However most voters want a FTA with the EU that ends free movement which is precisely what May is aiming for

    I don't remember that being on the ballot paper :)
    Invisible ink I believe. Only those initiated in the true faith knew to waft it over a lighter to get the full fat question.
    Funnily enough I noticed that the invisible ink on my ballot paper said:

    Leave the EU (and give the NHS an extra £350m a week)

    Like a traitor, I still voted Remain though. :wink:
  • Mr. Rentool, that's why many people voted to leave.

    Politely disagreed with someone the other day that Grieve was a traitor. But he was pretty pissed off about it, citing the fact that most of Grieve's constituents voted to Leave. My response was that MPs have to exercise their own judgement not just go along with their constituents' view, but that I disagreed entirely with Grieve's decision in this case.

    If we end up with departure in name only or actually remaining, people are going to be livid.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 2,650

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Some Remainers want to stay in the single market or even reverse Brexit, some Leavers want to go straight to WTO terms and not pay the EU a penny. However most voters want a FTA with the EU that ends free movement which is precisely what May is aiming for

    I don't remember that being on the ballot paper :)
    That's why I don't get this hard/soft/medium-done Brexit business. Whatever type of Brexit you get, Government has done what it was told. It got us out of the EU. Job done.
    To an extent although some of the more extreme BINO proposals ignore the spirit of the vote
    What spirit? There were as many notions of Brexit as there were voters.

    If there was a 'spirit' at all I should say that there was a sort of curmudgeonly 'eff 'em all attitude.

    That was perfectly understandable but difficult to distil a coherent foreign and economic policy out of it.
    How could anyone ever prove that the eventual end result "ignores the spirit of the vote"? I suspect we each interpret the spirit of the vote differently, according to our own experience/preferences etc.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,828
    edited December 2017

    HYUFD said:

    Some Remainers want to stay in the single market or even reverse Brexit, some Leavers want to go straight to WTO terms and not pay the EU a penny. However most voters want a FTA with the EU that ends free movement which is precisely what May is aiming for

    Sounds good, and in a way who wouldn't want that? I don't know if you are basing that opinion on your gut or polling data but I'd go along with either. The trouble is that a free trade agreement and free movement are intrinsically bound up together, and not just because the EU says so. If we have really strict controls on immigration, strong enough to put up domestic wages, we won't get much trade even if we have a very favourable deal. Even that is an oversimplification - an economy is a complex machine full of feedback loops. We can't just do what we want and hope it will all work out for the best. I am afraid this is an illustration of why plebiscites are undemocratic and why political leaders need to create a vision and get people to follow it through all its details. Poring over opinion polls and triangulating the results into a saleable political product just doesn't cut it.
    A very sage and well articulated post.

    After Marina Hyde that's two interesting reads this morning (posted by Williamglenn)

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/mueller-sought-emails-of-trump-campaign-data-firm-1513296899
  • Not much austerity at HS2. Or proper management either:

    ' Unauthorised redundancy payments made by the state-owned company managing the HS2 rail project were a "shocking waste of taxpayers' money", MPs have said.

    The Public Accounts Committee said the firm overseeing construction of a high-speed rail line offered staff terms "well in excess" of authorised levels.

    The MPs blamed "weak internal processes" at HS2 for overpayments to 94 people totalling £1.76m.

    An HS2 spokesperson acknowledged "a serious error" had been made.

    The company made the payments in 2016-17 after shedding 94 staff in a move from London to Birmingham.

    A combination of compulsory and voluntary redundancy schemes were offered on enhanced terms, resulting in a total bill of £2.76m, despite instructions from the Department of Transport that they should be at statutory rates, which would have incurred payments of £1m, MPs on the committee said.

    The MPs' report says that HS2's chief executive at the time, Simon Kirby, had an email from the government telling him that he wasn't allowed to offer staff larger, enhanced redundancy payments when the firm relocated.

    But it says Mr Kirby didn't pass that email on to anyone else.

    However, Mr Kirby - who now works at Rolls Royce - said in a statement that he had not been responsible for the decision to approve more generous severance packages.

    "I did not approve the payments at issue and deny any allegation of wrongdoing," he said.

    "I left HS2 in December last year and the decision to make senior managers redundant, and under what terms, was not made until after I left."

    MPs concluded a lack of basic financial controls at HS2 Ltd heightened the risk of fraud and financial errors, a situation it said was exacerbated by high rates of staff turnover.

    "The unauthorised schemes were able to proceed because weak internal processes at HS2 Ltd prevented key decision-making and scrutiny bodies from receiving accurate information," the committee said. '

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42358892

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 2,650

    Mr. Rentool, that's why many people voted to leave.

    Politely disagreed with someone the other day that Grieve was a traitor. But he was pretty pissed off about it, citing the fact that most of Grieve's constituents voted to Leave. My response was that MPs have to exercise their own judgement not just go along with their constituents' view, but that I disagreed entirely with Grieve's decision in this case.

    If we end up with departure in name only or actually remaining, some people are going to be livid.

    Corrected for you. Many people, possibly a majority, would be quite happy.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 4,286
    Can you imagine the response on the doorstep if the MPs somehow wangled a second referendum?

    "We need you to vote for Remain."

    "Or else we'll have another referendum?"

    I can see real anger.

    Old gits tend to be cynical about politics; being treated as fools won't help.
  • Mr. Rentool, that's why many people voted to leave.

    Politely disagreed with someone the other day that Grieve was a traitor. But he was pretty pissed off about it, citing the fact that most of Grieve's constituents voted to Leave. My response was that MPs have to exercise their own judgement not just go along with their constituents' view, but that I disagreed entirely with Grieve's decision in this case.

    If we end up with departure in name only or actually remaining, people are going to be livid.

    Chris Hanretty’s model has Beaconsfield voting Remain.

    So that other person was wrong on that.
  • Mr. Pointer, a furious minority still isn't a good thing. And I would dispute your suggestion a majority would be pleased with ignoring a vote in all but name.

    I'm relaxed about the range of options for leaving the EU, but it's got to be a departure, otherwise we'll end up clinging to the disadvantages and losing the advantages, the worst of all worlds.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Some Remainers want to stay in the single market or even reverse Brexit, some Leavers want to go straight to WTO terms and not pay the EU a penny. However most voters want a FTA with the EU that ends free movement which is precisely what May is aiming for

    I don't remember that being on the ballot paper :)
    80% voted for Labour and the Tories manifesto commitments to leave the single market and end free movement and get a trade deal with the EU after a transition period in June, so yes the general election means it has now been on the ballot paper

    The LDs commitment to stay permanently in the single market and the UKIP commitment to go to WTO terms and not agree any regulatory alignment with the EU were both soundly rejected
    Can you direct me to the part of the Tory manifesto that mentions a transition period please?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 2,650

    Not much austerity at HS2. Or proper management either:

    ' Unauthorised redundancy payments made by the state-owned company managing the HS2 rail project were a "shocking waste of taxpayers' money", MPs have said.

    The Public Accounts Committee said the firm overseeing construction of a high-speed rail line offered staff terms "well in excess" of authorised levels.

    The MPs blamed "weak internal processes" at HS2 for overpayments to 94 people totalling £1.76m.

    An HS2 spokesperson acknowledged "a serious error" had been made.

    The company made the payments in 2016-17 after shedding 94 staff in a move from London to Birmingham.

    A combination of compulsory and voluntary redundancy schemes were offered on enhanced terms, resulting in a total bill of £2.76m, despite instructions from the Department of Transport that they should be at statutory rates, which would have incurred payments of £1m, MPs on the committee said.

    The MPs' report says that HS2's chief executive at the time, Simon Kirby, had an email from the government telling him that he wasn't allowed to offer staff larger, enhanced redundancy payments when the firm relocated.

    But it says Mr Kirby didn't pass that email on to anyone else.

    However, Mr Kirby - who now works at Rolls Royce - said in a statement that he had not been responsible for the decision to approve more generous severance packages.

    "I did not approve the payments at issue and deny any allegation of wrongdoing," he said.

    "I left HS2 in December last year and the decision to make senior managers redundant, and under what terms, was not made until after I left."

    MPs concluded a lack of basic financial controls at HS2 Ltd heightened the risk of fraud and financial errors, a situation it said was exacerbated by high rates of staff turnover.

    "The unauthorised schemes were able to proceed because weak internal processes at HS2 Ltd prevented key decision-making and scrutiny bodies from receiving accurate information," the committee said. '

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42358892

    Maybe the government should sue him for the loss. Somehow, I suspect that's not going to happen!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,810

    HYUFD said:

    Luxembourg PM confirms Parliament will not be able to send May back to renegotiate Brexit deal

    https://mobile.twitter.com/adamfleming/status/941268474986364930

    The PM of Luxembourg ffs! Someone who ought to have as much clout as the Mayor of Hartlepool trying to tell our sovereign parliament what it can and can't do.
    Except he has a veto over said negotiations, the Mayor of Hartlepool does not.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 2,650

    Mr. Pointer, a furious minority still isn't a good thing. And I would dispute your suggestion a majority would be pleased with ignoring a vote in all but name.

    I'm relaxed about the range of options for leaving the EU, but it's got to be a departure, otherwise we'll end up clinging to the disadvantages and losing the advantages, the worst of all worlds.

    I think Brexit, in whatever shape, is the worst of all worlds. We will still have to fit with EU compliance regulations in order to trade freely with it; regulations that we will no longer have any influence over.

    Still, we are where we are. It's all about damage limitation imho and to be fair to TMay, it appears that she gets that.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,624
    edited December 2017

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Some Remainers want to stay in the single market or even reverse Brexit, some Leavers want to go straight to WTO terms and not pay the EU a penny. However most voters want a FTA with the EU that ends free movement which is precisely what May is aiming for

    I don't remember that being on the ballot paper :)
    80% voted for Labour and the Tories manifesto commitments to leave the single market and end free movement and get a trade deal with the EU after a transition period in June, so yes the general election means it has now been on the ballot paper

    The LDs commitment to stay permanently in the single market and the UKIP commitment to go to WTO terms and not agree any regulatory alignment with the EU were both soundly rejected
    Can you direct me to the part of the Tory manifesto that mentions a transition period please?
    Labour did mention one in theirs I believe, if the Tories did not have one in their manifesto as Labour did that just reinforces the point even more Tory voters voted to end free movement and leave the single market as Labour voters voted to do ultimately too after the end of the transition
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,624

    HYUFD said:

    Luxembourg PM confirms Parliament will not be able to send May back to renegotiate Brexit deal

    https://mobile.twitter.com/adamfleming/status/941268474986364930

    The PM of Luxembourg ffs! Someone who ought to have as much clout as the Mayor of Hartlepool trying to tell our sovereign parliament what it can and can't do.
    He has a veto though
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 19,400
    A wicket at last. But these pair have done serious damage. England need another wicket before the close.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,624
    edited December 2017

    HYUFD said:

    Luxembourg PM confirms Parliament will not be able to send May back to renegotiate Brexit deal

    https://mobile.twitter.com/adamfleming/status/941268474986364930

    File under 'No sh*t' Sherlock....

    The vote was just illogical stupid gesture politics.

    There will be a deal. It will be 'take it or leave it'.
    Exactly, it will be take it or rejoin the EU or permanently stay in the single market if you want a better deal. Which is of course precisely what some diehard Remainer MPs know full well
  • MetatronMetatron Posts: 122
    Whilst it is true that the poor showing of the Lib Dems and Scottish/Welsh Nats implies voters depressingly rejected in the 2017 election the idea of 2nd referendums /staying in etc it is not the same to suggest because UKIP did poorly that it meant voters were rejecting a `no deal` scenario.
    The tories went into the 2017 election on a `no deal is better than a bad deal` policy and UKIP didcut down significantly the amount of UKIP candidates standing due to their lack of resources both in financial and membership terms.
    My view is that if the Tories do not hold a 2nd referendum on the final deal it is likely to have disastrous consequences both nationally and for the Tory party.It is highly likely Brexit will lead to both winners and losers.Many losers will quickly end up bitter even if they voted Brexit that they did not get a chance to vote on the deal.
    Remainers who become postbrexit losers will doubledown on their bitterness.
    Ironically the most likely winners of Brexit are the professional middle class service industry i.e lawyers,consultants etc .The people one associates with Remain.Note most of the 11 Tory remain rebels this week are lawyers
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 6,926

    HYUFD said:

    Some Remainers want to stay in the single market or even reverse Brexit, some Leavers want to go straight to WTO terms and not pay the EU a penny. However most voters want a FTA with the EU that ends free movement which is precisely what May is aiming for

    I don't remember that being on the ballot paper :)
    Invisible ink I believe. Only those initiated in the true faith knew to waft it over a lighter to get the full fat question.
    Funnily enough I noticed that the invisible ink on my ballot paper said:

    Leave the EU (and give the NHS an extra £350m a week)

    Like a traitor, I still voted Remain though. :wink:
    BREXIT means different things when the remain side try to stitch you up ;-)

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 13,870

    HYUFD said:

    Luxembourg PM confirms Parliament will not be able to send May back to renegotiate Brexit deal

    https://mobile.twitter.com/adamfleming/status/941268474986364930

    File under 'No sh*t' Sherlock....

    The vote was just illogical stupid gesture politics.

    There will be a deal. It will be 'take it or leave it'.
    The traitors believe that leave it means we remain and they get to overrule the public. In reality it means no deal.
  • Mr. CD13, indeed, but revocation without a second referendum would be even worse.

    Mr. Eagles, cheers for that (I hadn't seen anything on it myself either way).

    Mr. Pointer, every country must meet the trading requirements of any country they wish to export to - for exports. A great many businesses do not export, and we'll be free to regulate ourselves without need the approval of the Prime Minister of Luxembourg.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 2,650
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Some Remainers want to stay in the single market or even reverse Brexit, some Leavers want to go straight to WTO terms and not pay the EU a penny. However most voters want a FTA with the EU that ends free movement which is precisely what May is aiming for

    I don't remember that being on the ballot paper :)
    80% voted for Labour and the Tories manifesto commitments to leave the single market and end free movement and get a trade deal with the EU after a transition period in June, so yes the general election means it has now been on the ballot paper

    The LDs commitment to stay permanently in the single market and the UKIP commitment to go to WTO terms and not agree any regulatory alignment with the EU were both soundly rejected
    Can you direct me to the part of the Tory manifesto that mentions a transition period please?
    Labour did mention one in theirs I believe, if the Tories did not have one in their manifesto as Labour did that just reinforces the point even more Tory voters voted to end free movement and leave the single market as Labour voters voted to do ultimately too after the end of the transition
    Er? From the Labour Mainfesto on the single market:

    "We will scrap the Conservatives’ Brexit White Paper and replace it with fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union – which are essential for maintaining industries, jobs and businesses in Britain."

  • Not much austerity at HS2. Or proper management either:

    ' Unauthorised redundancy payments made by the state-owned company managing the HS2 rail project were a "shocking waste of taxpayers' money", MPs have said.

    The Public Accounts Committee said the firm overseeing construction of a high-speed rail line offered staff terms "well in excess" of authorised levels.

    The MPs blamed "weak internal processes" at HS2 for overpayments to 94 people totalling £1.76m.

    An HS2 spokesperson acknowledged "a serious error" had been made.

    The company made the payments in 2016-17 after shedding 94 staff in a move from London to Birmingham.

    A combination of compulsory and voluntary redundancy schemes were offered on enhanced terms, resulting in a total bill of £2.76m, despite instructions from the Department of Transport that they should be at statutory rates, which would have incurred payments of £1m, MPs on the committee said.

    The MPs' report says that HS2's chief executive at the time, Simon Kirby, had an email from the government telling him that he wasn't allowed to offer staff larger, enhanced redundancy payments when the firm relocated.

    But it says Mr Kirby didn't pass that email on to anyone else.

    However, Mr Kirby - who now works at Rolls Royce - said in a statement that he had not been responsible for the decision to approve more generous severance packages.

    "I did not approve the payments at issue and deny any allegation of wrongdoing," he said.

    "I left HS2 in December last year and the decision to make senior managers redundant, and under what terms, was not made until after I left."

    MPs concluded a lack of basic financial controls at HS2 Ltd heightened the risk of fraud and financial errors, a situation it said was exacerbated by high rates of staff turnover.

    "The unauthorised schemes were able to proceed because weak internal processes at HS2 Ltd prevented key decision-making and scrutiny bodies from receiving accurate information," the committee said. '

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42358892

    Maybe the government should sue him for the loss. Somehow, I suspect that's not going to happen!
    He seems to have studied at the Sir Humphrey Appleby school of plausible deniability.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,796
    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    you feeling lonely Nigel, having to talk to yourself.

    Actually, I find I'm excellent company.
    :smile:
    LOL
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Some Remainers want to stay in the single market or even reverse Brexit, some Leavers want to go straight to WTO terms and not pay the EU a penny. However most voters want a FTA with the EU that ends free movement which is precisely what May is aiming for

    I don't remember that being on the ballot paper :)
    80% voted for Labour and the Tories manifesto commitments to leave the single market and end free movement and get a trade deal with the EU after a transition period in June, so yes the general election means it has now been on the ballot paper

    The LDs commitment to stay permanently in the single market and the UKIP commitment to go to WTO terms and not agree any regulatory alignment with the EU were both soundly rejected
    Can you direct me to the part of the Tory manifesto that mentions a transition period please?
    Labour did mention one in theirs I believe, if the Tories did not have one in their manifesto as Labour did that just reinforces the point even more Tory voters voted to end free movement and leave the single market as Labour voters voted to do ultimately too after the end of the transition
    Do you have a link to the transition in Labour’s manifesto please?
  • The notion that Germany and France would allow Luxembourg to veto a deal that they are both happy with is not credible.

    Same with Ireland.
  • RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Luxembourg PM confirms Parliament will not be able to send May back to renegotiate Brexit deal

    https://mobile.twitter.com/adamfleming/status/941268474986364930

    The PM of Luxembourg ffs! Someone who ought to have as much clout as the Mayor of Hartlepool trying to tell our sovereign parliament what it can and can't do.
    Except he has a veto over said negotiations, the Mayor of Hartlepool does not.
    One might say that the fact that v small countries having the same veto rights as countries 100s of times their size isn't the best way to construct a union....
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 2,650
    edited December 2017

    Not much austerity at HS2. Or proper management either:

    ' Unauthorised redundancy payments made by the state-owned company managing the HS2 rail project were a "shocking waste of taxpayers' money", MPs have said.

    The Public Accounts Committee said the firm overseeing construction of a high-speed rail line offered staff terms "well in excess" of authorised levels.

    The MPs blamed "weak internal processes" at HS2 for overpayments to 94 people totalling £1.76m.

    An HS2 spokesperson acknowledged "a serious error" had been made.

    The company made the payments in 2016-17 after shedding 94 staff in a move from London to Birmingham.

    A combination of compulsory and voluntary redundancy schemes were offered on enhanced terms, resulting in a total bill of £2.76m, despite instructions from the Department of Transport that they should be at statutory rates, which would have incurred payments of £1m, MPs on the committee said.

    The MPs' report says that HS2's chief executive at the time, Simon Kirby, had an email from the government telling him that he wasn't allowed to offer staff larger, enhanced redundancy payments when the firm relocated.

    But it says Mr Kirby didn't pass that email on to anyone else.

    However, Mr Kirby - who now works at Rolls Royce - said in a statement that he had not been responsible for the decision to approve more generous severance packages.

    "I did not approve the payments at issue and deny any allegation of wrongdoing," he said.

    "I left HS2 in December last year and the decision to make senior managers redundant, and under what terms, was not made until after I left."

    MPs concluded a lack of basic financial controls at HS2 Ltd heightened the risk of fraud and financial errors, a situation it said was exacerbated by high rates of staff turnover.

    "The unauthorised schemes were able to proceed because weak internal processes at HS2 Ltd prevented key decision-making and scrutiny bodies from receiving accurate information," the committee said. '

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42358892

    Maybe the government should sue him for the loss. Somehow, I suspect that's not going to happen!
    He seems to have studied at the Sir Humphrey Appleby school of plausible deniability.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 1,408



    If we end up with departure in name only or actually remaining, people are going to be livid.

    Compared with the current situation where everyone is relaxed and amiable. Possibly the best thing about Brexit is how it's become a license to be rude. I called a leaver of my acquaintance an 'ignorant shit' yesterday. I meant it and it felt great. That would never have happened pre-Brexit.
  • RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Luxembourg PM confirms Parliament will not be able to send May back to renegotiate Brexit deal

    https://mobile.twitter.com/adamfleming/status/941268474986364930

    The PM of Luxembourg ffs! Someone who ought to have as much clout as the Mayor of Hartlepool trying to tell our sovereign parliament what it can and can't do.
    Except he has a veto over said negotiations, the Mayor of Hartlepool does not.
    One might say that the fact that v small countries having the same veto rights as countries 100s of times their size isn't the best way to construct a union....
    Works for America and their Senate.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 2,650
    Dura_Ace said:



    If we end up with departure in name only or actually remaining, people are going to be livid.

    Compared with the current situation where everyone is relaxed and amiable. Possibly the best thing about Brexit is how it's become a license to be rude. I called a leaver of my acquaintance an 'ignorant shit' yesterday. I meant it and it felt great. That would never have happened pre-Brexit.
    What? Did you never tell the truth pre-Brexit? :smile:
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,624

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Some Remainers want to stay in the single market or even reverse Brexit, some Leavers want to go straight to WTO terms and not pay the EU a penny. However most voters want a FTA with the EU that ends free movement which is precisely what May is aiming for

    I don't remember that being on the ballot paper :)
    80% voted for Labour and the Tories manifesto commitments to leave the single market and end free movement and get a trade deal with the EU after a transition period in June, so yes the general election means it has now been on the ballot paper

    The LDs commitment to stay permanently in the single market and the UKIP commitment to go to WTO terms and not agree any regulatory alignment with the EU were both soundly rejected
    Can you direct me to the part of the Tory manifesto that mentions a transition period please?
    Labour did mention one in theirs I believe, if the Tories did not have one in their manifesto as Labour did that just reinforces the point even more Tory voters voted to end free movement and leave the single market as Labour voters voted to do ultimately too after the end of the transition
    Do you have a link to the transition in Labour’s manifesto please?
    Starmer was perfectly clear he wanted a transition during the general election campaign whether that was in the manifesto or not I don't know, again though if it wasn't that just reinforces the point even more, voters voted for a free trade deal with the EU that ends free movement
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,624
    edited December 2017

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Some Remainers want to stay in the single market or even reverse Brexit, some Leavers want to go straight to WTO terms and not pay the EU a penny. However most voters want a FTA with the EU that ends free movement which is precisely what May is aiming for

    I don't remember that being on the ballot paper :)
    80% voted for Labour and the Tories manifesto commitments to leave the single market and end free movement and get a trade deal with the EU after a transition period in June, so yes the general election means it has now been on the ballot paper

    The LDs commitment to stay permanently in the single market and the UKIP commitment to go to WTO terms and not agree any regulatory alignment with the EU were both soundly rejected
    Can you direct me to the part of the Tory manifesto that mentions a transition period please?
    Labour did mention one in theirs I believe, if the Tories did not have one in their manifesto as Labour did that just reinforces the point even more Tory voters voted to end free movement and leave the single market as Labour voters voted to do ultimately too after the end of the transition
    Er? From the Labour Mainfesto on the single market:

    "We will scrap the Conservatives’ Brexit White Paper and replace it with fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union – which are essential for maintaining industries, jobs and businesses in Britain."

    So not permanent membership of the single market and customs union then, just replicating some of the benefits of them in a trade deal
  • MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    Luxembourg PM confirms Parliament will not be able to send May back to renegotiate Brexit deal

    https://mobile.twitter.com/adamfleming/status/941268474986364930

    File under 'No sh*t' Sherlock....

    The vote was just illogical stupid gesture politics.

    There will be a deal. It will be 'take it or leave it'.
    The traitors believe that leave it means we remain and they get to overrule the public. In reality it means no deal.
    Presumably some leavers believe that too, otherwise they wouldn't be so angry about the vote
  • RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Luxembourg PM confirms Parliament will not be able to send May back to renegotiate Brexit deal

    https://mobile.twitter.com/adamfleming/status/941268474986364930

    The PM of Luxembourg ffs! Someone who ought to have as much clout as the Mayor of Hartlepool trying to tell our sovereign parliament what it can and can't do.
    Except he has a veto over said negotiations, the Mayor of Hartlepool does not.
    One might say that the fact that v small countries having the same veto rights as countries 100s of times their size isn't the best way to construct a union....
    Works for America and their Senate.
    Each senator has a absolute veto? News to me.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 12,463
    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    Luxembourg PM confirms Parliament will not be able to send May back to renegotiate Brexit deal

    https://mobile.twitter.com/adamfleming/status/941268474986364930

    File under 'No sh*t' Sherlock....

    The vote was just illogical stupid gesture politics.

    There will be a deal. It will be 'take it or leave it'.
    The traitors believe that leave it means we remain and they get to overrule the public. In reality it means no deal.
    I mean Max don't get me wrong, I know you are interested in all this but for someone who has f***ed off to live in a foreign (ugh!) country calling people traitors who are serving their country is, oh I don't know, a bit off, don't you think?

    I get it, I was an expat for a while. Out come the Union Jack boxer shorts, the gramophone playing Land of Hope and Glory, and listening to The Archers on loop. But really.
  • Mr. Eagles, justifiable only if you believe in a United States of Europe. But as you've repeatedly said you wanted us to leave (just ten years later), that cannot possibly describe your own position.
  • Dura_Ace said:



    If we end up with departure in name only or actually remaining, people are going to be livid.

    I called a leaver of my acquaintance an 'ignorant shit' yesterday. I meant it and it felt great.
    Saying far more about yourself than your acquaintance.....
  • An eminent silk writes

    Most of the Brexit rebels are lawyers. Maybe experts are useful after all

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/14/brexit-rebels-lawyers-experts-tory-mps-government
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,624
    edited December 2017
    Metatron said:

    Whilst it is true that the poor showing of the Lib Dems and Scottish/Welsh Nats implies voters depressingly rejected in the 2017 election the idea of 2nd referendums /staying in etc it is not the same to suggest because UKIP did poorly that it meant voters were rejecting a `no deal` scenario.
    The tories went into the 2017 election on a `no deal is better than a bad deal` policy and UKIP didcut down significantly the amount of UKIP candidates standing due to their lack of resources both in financial and membership terms.
    My view is that if the Tories do not hold a 2nd referendum on the final deal it is likely to have disastrous consequences both nationally and for the Tory party.It is highly likely Brexit will lead to both winners and losers.Many losers will quickly end up bitter even if they voted Brexit that they did not get a chance to vote on the deal.
    Remainers who become postbrexit losers will doubledown on their bitterness.
    Ironically the most likely winners of Brexit are the professional middle class service industry i.e lawyers,consultants etc .The people one associates with Remain.Note most of the 11 Tory remain rebels this week are lawyers

    Holding a referendum on a final deal and effectively on leaving the EU again would really have disastrous consequences for the Tories with mass shifts of Tory Leavers to UKIP
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 19,400
    Brexit means exit from the EU. That is all it means. It is the job of the government of the day to make that work for us as well as they can. Calling anyone a "traitor" because the package does or does not contain any particular element is just silly (a) because it is gratuitously offensive and (b) it has no democratic mandate whatsoever.

    There will come a point in this process when the focus will move from the deal through the transition into the longer term. What kind of relationship does the EU want to have with us in, say, 20 years? If they still want us to be one of their major trading partners that itself will shape the deal we get now.

    From our perspective the question will become are we wanting to stay close to the EU or move further away? Once again the deal will set the context of that question. If we feel hard done by then it is very likely the next step will be further away. The UK has been both the consumer of last resort and employer of the youth of much of the EU for the last couple of decades. There is quite a lot at stake for the EU too.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Some Remainers want to stay in the single market or even reverse Brexit, some Leavers want to go straight to WTO terms and not pay the EU a penny. However most voters want a FTA with the EU that ends free movement which is precisely what May is aiming for

    I don't remember that being on the ballot paper :)
    80% voted for Labour and the Tories manifesto commitments to leave the single market and end free movement and get a trade deal with the EU after a transition period in June, so yes the general election means it has now been on the ballot paper

    The LDs commitment to stay permanently in the single market and the UKIP commitment to go to WTO terms and not agree any regulatory alignment with the EU were both soundly rejected
    Can you direct me to the part of the Tory manifesto that mentions a transition period please?
    Labour did mention one in theirs I believe, if the Tories did not have one in their manifesto as Labour did that just reinforces the point even more Tory voters voted to end free movement and leave the single market as Labour voters voted to do ultimately too after the end of the transition
    Do you have a link to the transition in Labour’s manifesto please?
    Starmer was perfectly clear he wanted a transition during the general election campaign whether that was in the manifesto or not I don't know, again though if it wasn't that just reinforces the point even more, voters voted for a free trade deal with the EU that ends free movement
    But where was it in the manifesto ?

    You were the one banging on about it being in the manifesto of both parties.
  • More evidence of that terrible austerity the UK is undergoing.

    ' In 2016, consumption per head in the UK, measured using actual individual consumption (AIC) per head was fourth highest in the EU, behind Luxembourg, Germany and Austria. This is according to new figures recorded by Office for National Statistics (ONS) and compiled and released by Eurostat, the statistical office of the European Union1, on 14th December 2017.

    AIC, which is a measure of material welfare of households, was 16% higher in the UK than the EU28 average; this compares with 15% higher in 2015. Luxembourg was again the highest in the EU (32% above the EU28 average), with Bulgaria the lowest (53% of the EU28 average). AIC per head is often used as a measure of households’ material welfare as it incorporates all goods and services that a household consumes, whether they have purchased and paid for them themselves or not. '

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/consumptionperhead/consumptionperheadintheukisfourthhighestintheeu

    Interestingly consumption per head in Ireland is about 20% lower than in the UK despite GDP per head supposedly being 70% higher.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 2,650
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Some Remainers want to stay in the single market or even reverse Brexit, some Leavers want to go straight to WTO terms and not pay the EU a penny. However most voters want a FTA with the EU that ends free movement which is precisely what May is aiming for

    I don't remember that being on the ballot paper :)
    80% voted for Labour and the Tories manifesto commitments to leave the single market and end free movement and get a trade deal with the EU after a transition period in June, so yes the general election means it has now been on the ballot paper

    The LDs commitment to stay permanently in the single market and the UKIP commitment to go to WTO terms and not agree any regulatory alignment with the EU were both soundly rejected
    Can you direct me to the part of the Tory manifesto that mentions a transition period please?
    Labour did mention one in theirs I believe, if the Tories did not have one in their manifesto as Labour did that just reinforces the point even more Tory voters voted to end free movement and leave the single market as Labour voters voted to do ultimately too after the end of the transition
    Er? From the Labour Mainfesto on the single market:

    "We will scrap the Conservatives’ Brexit White Paper and replace it with fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union – which are essential for maintaining industries, jobs and businesses in Britain."

    So not permanent membership of the single market and customs union then, just replicating some of the benefits in a trade deal
    It doesn't say "not permanent membership" and quite obviously the best (and possibly only) way of "retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union " would be to stay in them!

    I nearly voted Labour* - had I done so I would not have been supporting leaving the Single Market. I respect your views and argument but don't think it's right to assume that the 80% who voted Tory/Labour were supporting leaving the single market.

    (*I voted LD in the end 'cos I thought they had the best chance of unseating my safe-seat Tory MP - wrong!)
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 13,870
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    Luxembourg PM confirms Parliament will not be able to send May back to renegotiate Brexit deal

    https://mobile.twitter.com/adamfleming/status/941268474986364930

    File under 'No sh*t' Sherlock....

    The vote was just illogical stupid gesture politics.

    There will be a deal. It will be 'take it or leave it'.
    The traitors believe that leave it means we remain and they get to overrule the public. In reality it means no deal.
    I mean Max don't get me wrong, I know you are interested in all this but for someone who has f***ed off to live in a foreign (ugh!) country calling people traitors who are serving their country is, oh I don't know, a bit off, don't you think?

    I get it, I was an expat for a while. Out come the Union Jack boxer shorts, the gramophone playing Land of Hope and Glory, and listening to The Archers on loop. But really.
    They aren't serving their country. They are trying to overrule the public vote. Ultimately MPs answer to the public, we have instructed them to take the country out of the EU and now these 11 traitors are trying to overrule that with technicalities.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 12,463

    Dura_Ace said:



    If we end up with departure in name only or actually remaining, people are going to be livid.

    I called a leaver of my acquaintance an 'ignorant shit' yesterday. I meant it and it felt great.
    Saying far more about yourself than your acquaintance.....
    You've got to call it as you see it...
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 4,286
    Things have changed in one major way since the referendum. Before the referendum, talk of Europe was met with bored glances. Maastricht? Some place in Belgium or Holland?

    Now it stirs up interest. Hoping to slip in a no-leave leave without anyone noticing won't happen. A second referendum will bring it into sharp focus. Not so much about the result as about the political and chattering classes taking the piss.

    Can I be the first to suggest that Frank Field be given a knighthood?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 2,650
    edited December 2017
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    Luxembourg PM confirms Parliament will not be able to send May back to renegotiate Brexit deal

    https://mobile.twitter.com/adamfleming/status/941268474986364930

    File under 'No sh*t' Sherlock....

    The vote was just illogical stupid gesture politics.

    There will be a deal. It will be 'take it or leave it'.
    The traitors believe that leave it means we remain and they get to overrule the public. In reality it means no deal.
    I mean Max don't get me wrong, I know you are interested in all this but for someone who has f***ed off to live in a foreign (ugh!) country calling people traitors who are serving their country is, oh I don't know, a bit off, don't you think?

    I get it, I was an expat for a while. Out come the Union Jack boxer shorts, the gramophone playing Land of Hope and Glory, and listening to The Archers on loop. But really.
    They aren't serving their country. They are trying to overrule the public vote. Ultimately MPs answer to the public, we have instructed them to take the country out of the EU and now these 11 traitors are trying to overrule that with technicalities.
    Jeepers! Get a grip! If their constituents don't like it they can sack them at the next GE - that's the way it works in the UK (in case you've forgotten) :wink:
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,624

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Some Remainers want to stay in the single market or even reverse Brexit, some Leavers want to go straight to WTO terms and not pay the EU a penny. However most voters want a FTA with the EU that ends free movement which is precisely what May is aiming for

    I don't remember that being on the ballot paper :)
    80% voted for Labour and the Tories manifesto commitments to leave the single market and end free movement and get a trade deal with the EU after a transition period in June, so yes the general election means it has now been on the ballot paper

    The LDs commitment to stay permanently in the single market and the UKIP commitment to go to WTO terms and not agree any regulatory alignment with the EU were both soundly rejected
    Can you direct me to the part of the Tory manifesto that mentions a transition period please?
    Labour did mention one in theirs I believe, if the Tories did not have one in their manifesto as Labour did that just reinforces the point even more Tory voters voted to end free movement and leave the single market as Labour voters voted to do ultimately too after the end of the transition
    Do you have a link to the transition in Labour’s manifesto please?
    Starmer was perfectly clear he wanted a transition during the general election campaign whether that was in the manifesto or not I don't know, again though if it wasn't that just reinforces the point even more, voters voted for a free trade deal with the EU that ends free movement
    But where was it in the manifesto ?

    You were the one banging on about it being in the manifesto of both parties.
    I was banging on about the general election endorsing the principle of leaving the single market and replacing it with a free trade deal that ends free movement, the transition period does not really bother me either way though if it was not in the manifestos I will admit I was wrong on that
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 12,463
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    Luxembourg PM confirms Parliament will not be able to send May back to renegotiate Brexit deal

    https://mobile.twitter.com/adamfleming/status/941268474986364930

    File under 'No sh*t' Sherlock....

    The vote was just illogical stupid gesture politics.

    There will be a deal. It will be 'take it or leave it'.
    The traitors believe that leave it means we remain and they get to overrule the public. In reality it means no deal.
    I mean Max don't get me wrong, I know you are interested in all this but for someone who has f***ed off to live in a foreign (ugh!) country calling people traitors who are serving their country is, oh I don't know, a bit off, don't you think?

    I get it, I was an expat for a while. Out come the Union Jack boxer shorts, the gramophone playing Land of Hope and Glory, and listening to The Archers on loop. But really.
    They aren't serving their country. They are trying to overrule the public vote. Ultimately MPs answer to the public, we have instructed them to take the country out of the EU and now these 11 traitors are trying to overrule that with technicalities.
    Which Canton are we talking about here?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 12,463
    CD13 said:

    Things have changed in one major way since the referendum. Before the referendum, talk of Europe was met with bored glances. Maastricht? Some place in Belgium or Holland?

    Now it stirs up interest. Hoping to slip in a no-leave leave without anyone noticing won't happen. A second referendum will bring it into sharp focus. Not so much about the result as about the political and chattering classes taking the piss.

    Can I be the first to suggest that Frank Field be given a knighthood?

    I still have no idea where Maastricht is. Belgium, right? Ask me to find it on a map, that said...
  • What does Brexit mean? It's an advent calendar of shit, with each day offering some new turd on the breakfast table.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,624
    edited December 2017

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Some Remainers want to stay in the single market or even reverse Brexit, some Leavers want to go straight to WTO terms and not pay the EU a penny. However most voters want a FTA with the EU that ends free movement which is precisely what May is aiming for

    I don't remember that being on the ballot paper :)
    80% voted for Labour and the Tories manifesto commitments to leave the single market and end free movement and get a trade deal with the EU after a transition period in June, so yes the general election means it has now been on the ballot paper

    The LDs commitment to stay permanently in the single market and the UKIP commitment to go to WTO terms and not agree any regulatory alignment with the EU were both soundly rejected
    Can you direct me to the part of the Tory manifesto that mentions a transition period please?
    Labour did mention one in theirs I believe, if the Tories did not have one in their manifesto as Labour did that just reinforces the point even more Tory voters voted to end free movement and leave the single market as Labour voters voted to do ultimately too after the end of the transition
    Er? From the Labour Mainfesto on the single market:

    "We will scrap the Conservatives’ Brexit White Paper and replace it with fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union – which are essential for maintaining industries, jobs and businesses in Britain."

    So not permanent membership of the single market and customs union then, just replicating some of the benefits in a trade deal
    It doesn't say "not permanent membership" and quite obviously the best (and possibly only) way of "retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union " would be to stay in them!

    I nearly voted Labour* - had I done so I would not have been supporting leaving the Single Market. I respect your views and argument but don't think it's right to assume that the 80% who voted Tory/Labour were supporting leaving the single market.

    (*I voted LD in the end 'cos I thought they had the best chance of unseating my safe-seat Tory MP - wrong!)
    It does not say permanent membership for a reason, Labour Leavers want to end free movement and Corbyn and McDonnell want to leave the ECJ.

    Had you voted Labour you would certainly have voted to end permanent UK membership of the single market, sorry, the only way you could have ensured that was to vote LD or Green. You were therefore correct to do so.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 2,650
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Some Remainers want to stay in the single market or even reverse Brexit, some Leavers want to go straight to WTO terms and not pay the EU a penny. However most voters want a FTA with the EU that ends free movement which is precisely what May is aiming for

    I don't remember that being on the ballot paper :)
    80% voted for Labour and the Tories manifesto commitments to leave the single market and end free movement and get a trade deal with the EU after a transition period in June, so yes the general election means it has now been on the ballot paper

    The LDs commitment to stay permanently in the single market and the UKIP commitment to go to WTO terms and not agree any regulatory alignment with the EU were both soundly rejected
    Can you direct me to the part of the Tory manifesto that mentions a transition period please?
    Labour did mention one in theirs I believe, if the Tories did not have one in their manifesto as Labour did that just reinforces the point even more Tory voters voted to end free movement and leave the single market as Labour voters voted to do ultimately too after the end of the transition
    Do you have a link to the transition in Labour’s manifesto please?
    Starmer was perfectly clear he wanted a transition during the general election campaign whether that was in the manifesto or not I don't know, again though if it wasn't that just reinforces the point even more, voters voted for a free trade deal with the EU that ends free movement
    But where was it in the manifesto ?

    You were the one banging on about it being in the manifesto of both parties.
    I was banging on about the general election endorsing the principle of leaving the single market and replacing it with a free trade deal that ends free movement, the transition period does not really bother me either way though if it was not in the manifestos I will admit I was wrong on that
    This might help you out HYUFD (what does that stand for btw?) Page 24:

    "We will reject ‘no deal’ as a viable option and if needs be negotiate transitional arrangements to avoid a cliff-edge’ for the UK economy"
  • TOPPING said:

    CD13 said:

    Things have changed in one major way since the referendum. Before the referendum, talk of Europe was met with bored glances. Maastricht? Some place in Belgium or Holland?

    Now it stirs up interest. Hoping to slip in a no-leave leave without anyone noticing won't happen. A second referendum will bring it into sharp focus. Not so much about the result as about the political and chattering classes taking the piss.

    Can I be the first to suggest that Frank Field be given a knighthood?

    I still have no idea where Maastricht is. Belgium, right? Ask me to find it on a map, that said...
    In The Netherlands. Site of a few battles.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,624
    edited December 2017

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Some Remainers want to stay in the single market or even reverse Brexit, some Leavers want to go straight to WTO terms and not pay the EU a penny. However most voters want a FTA with the EU that ends free movement which is precisely what May is aiming for

    I don't remember that being on the ballot paper :)
    80% voted for Labour and the Tories manifesto commitments to leave the single market and end free movement and get a trade deal with the EU after a transition period in June, so yes the general election means it has now been on the ballot paper

    The LDs commitment to stay permanently in the single market and the UKIP commitment to go to WTO terms and not agree any regulatory alignment with the EU were both soundly rejected
    Can you direct me to the part of the Tory manifesto that mentions a transition period please?
    Labour did mention one in theirs I believe, if the Tories did not have one in their manifesto as Labour did that just reinforces the point even more Tory voters voted to end free movement and leave the single market as Labour voters voted to do ultimately too after the end of the transition
    Do you have a link to the transition in Labour’s manifesto please?
    Starmer was perfectly clear he wanted a transition during the general election campaign whether that was in the manifesto or not I don't know, again though if it wasn't that just reinforces the point even more, voters voted for a free trade deal with the EU that ends free movement
    But where was it in the manifesto ?

    You were the one banging on about it being in the manifesto of both parties.
    I was banging on about the general election endorsing the principle of leaving the single market and replacing it with a free trade deal that ends free movement, the transition period does not really bother me either way though if it was not in the manifestos I will admit I was wrong on that
    This might help you out HYUFD (what does that stand for btw?) Page 24:

    "We will reject ‘no deal’ as a viable option and if needs be negotiate transitional arrangements to avoid a cliff-edge’ for the UK economy"
    So they back a transition period followed by a free trade deal ie basically the same position as Mrs May now has.

    It stands for nothing in particular though a vague reference to my time studying in Wales but as I have used it for so long and people know me by it I cannot be bothered to change it
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 5,228

    TOPPING said:

    CD13 said:

    Things have changed in one major way since the referendum. Before the referendum, talk of Europe was met with bored glances. Maastricht? Some place in Belgium or Holland?

    Now it stirs up interest. Hoping to slip in a no-leave leave without anyone noticing won't happen. A second referendum will bring it into sharp focus. Not so much about the result as about the political and chattering classes taking the piss.

    Can I be the first to suggest that Frank Field be given a knighthood?

    I still have no idea where Maastricht is. Belgium, right? Ask me to find it on a map, that said...
    In The Netherlands. Site of a few battles.
    The river Maas is the Meuse when it's in France, if that helps.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 64,256
    edited December 2017
    So which collapsed quicker?

    England’s batting this morning or Theresa May’s ratings during the election campaign?
  • Mr. Eagles, Caesar's popularity in Rome.
This discussion has been closed.