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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » To get the tone right it has to come from the top

SystemSystem Posts: 3,967
edited December 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » To get the tone right it has to come from the top

Labour MP @DavidLammy recorded £2,713.25 worth of flights and hospitality for a trip to Washington D.C in September 2017 funded by George Soros' Open Society Foundation. https://t.co/DIgAukz0co

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • First?
  • Absolutely agree with Ms Cyclefree.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 1,779
    Not a great deal to argue with in Cyclefree's impressive header for me.
    However it will be mighty difficult to bring the nation together and find that unifying vision.
    Particularly when our system rewards those who satisfy 45% of the electorate.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,512
    edited December 2017
    May is now getting the tone exactly right, a transition period and FTA to appease Remainers while still leaving the EU, the single market and ending free movement to appease Leavers
  • If only Mrs May had said something like this:

    I want this United Kingdom to emerge from this period of change stronger, fairer, more united and more outward-looking than ever before. I want us to be a secure, prosperous, tolerant country - a magnet for international talent and a home to the pioneers and innovators who will shape the world ahead. I want us to be a truly Global Britain – the best friend and neighbour to our European partners, but a country that reaches beyond the borders of Europe too. A country that goes out into the world to build relationships with old friends and new allies alike......

    We want to guarantee the rights of EU citizens who are already living in Britain, and the rights of British nationals in other member states, as early as we can.

    I have told other EU leaders that we could give people the certainty they want straight away, and reach such a deal now.

    Many of them favour such an agreement - one or two others do not - but I want everyone to know that it remains an important priority for Britain – and for many other member states – to resolve this challenge as soon as possible. Because it is the right and fair thing to do.


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/17/theresa-mays-brexit-speech-full/
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 15,917
    And that is why we seek a new and equal partnership – between an independent, self-governing, Global Britain and our friends and allies in the EU.

    How is the equal partnership turning out?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 1,779
    Also, is Lammy's a particularly egregious freebie? One would have thought Leave EU would be super wary of casting the first stone.
  • dixiedean said:

    Not a great deal to argue with in Cyclefree's impressive header for me.
    However it will be mighty difficult to bring the nation together and find that unifying vision.
    Particularly when our system rewards those who satisfy 45% of the electorate.

    +1
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 3,239
    If it made you feel instinctively superior - then it has served its purpose.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 1,156
    FPT
    FF43 said:



    I disagree. Membership is massively different from participation on a rule-taking basis. Norway is cool with outsourcing the major part of its foreign policy to a third party. I can't see the UK being so easy-going And even so, the Norwegian government thinks its a nonsense. They have to accept it because they know they won't win a referendum on EU membership.

    Yes you are right about that of course. The role of rule taker is a very silly position for the UK to get itself into. But I don't think many voters will worry about the detail - all they will see is continuing free movement, EU regulation and all the other trappings of membership.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,512

    FPT

    FF43 said:



    I disagree. Membership is massively different from participation on a rule-taking basis. Norway is cool with outsourcing the major part of its foreign policy to a third party. I can't see the UK being so easy-going And even so, the Norwegian government thinks its a nonsense. They have to accept it because they know they won't win a referendum on EU membership.

    Yes you are right about that of course. The role of rule taker is a very silly position for the UK to get itself into. But I don't think many voters will worry about the detail - all they will see is continuing free movement, EU regulation and all the other trappings of membership.
    Yet ended by 2022, the date the next general election is due
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 844
    Sound post. And it's precisely why I refuse to use the T word about anyone here or elsewhere, even as the debate becomes more and more intemperate. It's completely counterproductive, especially when I'm fairly certain the rebels believe they have Britain's best interests at heart. More importantly intemperate language stirs up the mob and it becomes a JS-Mill-Corn-dealer type thing.

    A quick refresher:

    ...even opinions lose their immunity, when the circumstances in which they are expressed are such as to constitute their expression a positive instigation to some mischievous act. An opinion that corn-dealers are starvers of the poor, or that private property is robbery, ought to be unmolested when simply circulated through the press, but may justly incur punishment when delivered orally to an excited mob assembled before the house of a corn-dealer.

    When does the PB Christmas truce begin?
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 1,125
    Hyufd said: "basically the Tories go for soft Brexit for 80% of the Parliament to secure anti Corbyn Remainers and protect the economy then go for fuller Brexit ie a FTA that ends free movement under a Leaver a few months before the next general election to ensure Leave voters do not shift from the Tories to UKIP"

    Ukip is on life-support and will die on 19 March 2019. It's a Brexiter fantasy that the party has any future significance. It might stand 100 zombie candidates at the next election, but they'll be largely ignored.
  • Tracey
    Crouch
  • kyf_100 said:

    Sound post. And it's precisely why I refuse to use the T word about anyone here or elsewhere, even as the debate becomes more and more intemperate. It's completely counterproductive, especially when I'm fairly certain the rebels believe they have Britain's best interests at heart. More importantly intemperate language stirs up the mob and it becomes a JS-Mill-Corn-dealer type thing.

    A quick refresher:

    ...even opinions lose their immunity, when the circumstances in which they are expressed are such as to constitute their expression a positive instigation to some mischievous act. An opinion that corn-dealers are starvers of the poor, or that private property is robbery, ought to be unmolested when simply circulated through the press, but may justly incur punishment when delivered orally to an excited mob assembled before the house of a corn-dealer.

    When does the PB Christmas truce begin?

    The PB Christmas truce starts on Christmas Eve when I invite PBers around to have pineapple on pizza as we watch that perfect Christmas film Die Hard.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,512
    Dadge said:

    Hyufd said: "basically the Tories go for soft Brexit for 80% of the Parliament to secure anti Corbyn Remainers and protect the economy then go for fuller Brexit ie a FTA that ends free movement under a Leaver a few months before the next general election to ensure Leave voters do not shift from the Tories to UKIP"

    Ukip is on life-support and will die on 19 March 2019. It's a Brexiter fantasy that the party has any future significance. It might stand 100 zombie candidates at the next election, but they'll be largely ignored.

    If the Tories left free movement and single market membership permanently in place or even worse reversed Brexit, UKIP would see a quicker revival than Lazarus, probably under a resurrected Farage
  • And that is why we seek a new and equal partnership – between an independent, self-governing, Global Britain and our friends and allies in the EU.

    How is the equal partnership turning out?
    How's the €100 billion?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,952
    I’m ambivalent about sub-editors.

    Many years ago I wrote an article in a pharmaceutical magazine, part of a series I was contracted to do. I titled it 'Prudence and the Pill’ a film which had recently been around the cinemas and mentioned on TV. The sub editor insisted on changing it to ‘Young Prudence and the Pill’.

    A few years ago I wrote an article for an (not the) oldies magazine about speaking to students at a Thai university. In the article I emphasised that I was from Essex, but as the word ‘reading’ was in one of the first lines of the article, the sub enititled it ‘From Reading to Bangkok’. Several of my friends asked me why I’d claimed I was from Reading, a town I’ve been to, I think. no more than twice in my life!
  • dixiedean said:

    Also, is Lammy's a particularly egregious freebie? One would have thought Leave EU would be super wary of casting the first stone.

    Entirely coincidentally, Lammy is black and Soros is Jewish.

  • FF43FF43 Posts: 5,390

    If only Mrs May had said something like this:

    I want this United Kingdom to emerge from this period of change stronger, fairer, more united and more outward-looking than ever before. I want us to be a secure, prosperous, tolerant country - a magnet for international talent and a home to the pioneers and innovators who will shape the world ahead. I want us to be a truly Global Britain – the best friend and neighbour to our European partners, but a country that reaches beyond the borders of Europe too. A country that goes out into the world to build relationships with old friends and new allies alike......

    We want to guarantee the rights of EU citizens who are already living in Britain, and the rights of British nationals in other member states, as early as we can.

    I have told other EU leaders that we could give people the certainty they want straight away, and reach such a deal now.

    Many of them favour such an agreement - one or two others do not - but I want everyone to know that it remains an important priority for Britain – and for many other member states – to resolve this challenge as soon as possible. Because it is the right and fair thing to do.


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/17/theresa-mays-brexit-speech-full/

    Interesting to reread the speech and feel nostalgic for a long gone strong-and-stable era (12 months ago already?) when Brexit meant Brexit and people could still say "Global Britain" and apparently mean it...
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 1,156
    HYUFD said:

    FPT

    FF43 said:



    I disagree. Membership is massively different from participation on a rule-taking basis. Norway is cool with outsourcing the major part of its foreign policy to a third party. I can't see the UK being so easy-going And even so, the Norwegian government thinks its a nonsense. They have to accept it because they know they won't win a referendum on EU membership.

    Yes you are right about that of course. The role of rule taker is a very silly position for the UK to get itself into. But I don't think many voters will worry about the detail - all they will see is continuing free movement, EU regulation and all the other trappings of membership.
    Yet ended by 2022, the date the next general election is due
    I very much doubt it. The transitional period will only be ended when the UK and EU have agreed on a long-term future relationship - all the evidence is that this will take much more than 2 years. It's already 18 months since the referendum and the cabinet has yet to discuss it.

    Of course we could decide to end the transition and leave without an agreement in in 2021 but no sane government would go over the economic cliff a year before a general election.

    And the EU will have no incentive to hurry the talks - the UK will be continuing to pay into the budget and have no say in the political structure - what's not to like for them?

    So the transition will be prolonged.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 16,536
    Yay another "leavers R bad" thread.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,952

    kyf_100 said:

    Sound post. And it's precisely why I refuse to use the T word about anyone here or elsewhere, even as the debate becomes more and more intemperate. It's completely counterproductive, especially when I'm fairly certain the rebels believe they have Britain's best interests at heart. More importantly intemperate language stirs up the mob and it becomes a JS-Mill-Corn-dealer type thing.

    A quick refresher:

    ...even opinions lose their immunity, when the circumstances in which they are expressed are such as to constitute their expression a positive instigation to some mischievous act. An opinion that corn-dealers are starvers of the poor, or that private property is robbery, ought to be unmolested when simply circulated through the press, but may justly incur punishment when delivered orally to an excited mob assembled before the house of a corn-dealer.

    When does the PB Christmas truce begin?

    The PB Christmas truce starts on Christmas Eve when I invite PBers around to have pineapple on pizza as we watch that perfect Christmas film Die Hard.
    Will Malc bring the whisky?
  • TGOHF said:

    Yay another "leavers R bad" thread.

    You missed the bit criticising Remain supporting Mrs May?
  • kyf_100 said:

    Sound post. And it's precisely why I refuse to use the T word about anyone here or elsewhere, even as the debate becomes more and more intemperate. It's completely counterproductive, especially when I'm fairly certain the rebels believe they have Britain's best interests at heart. More importantly intemperate language stirs up the mob and it becomes a JS-Mill-Corn-dealer type thing.

    A quick refresher:

    ...even opinions lose their immunity, when the circumstances in which they are expressed are such as to constitute their expression a positive instigation to some mischievous act. An opinion that corn-dealers are starvers of the poor, or that private property is robbery, ought to be unmolested when simply circulated through the press, but may justly incur punishment when delivered orally to an excited mob assembled before the house of a corn-dealer.

    When does the PB Christmas truce begin?

    The PB Christmas truce starts on Christmas Eve when I invite PBers around to have pineapple on pizza as we watch that perfect Christmas film Die Hard.
    Will Malc bring the whisky?
    No, just turnips.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 13,416
    I think there is some opportunity to sow discord within the 27 over refugees/migrants.
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 1,125
    That Leave.EU ad will leave most people nonplussed, and rightly so. It's a dogwhistle to a few paranoiacs on the political fringe that Arron Banks inhabits.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 5,967
    "Daddy, what is a Ukip?".

    "An extinct species of antelope, once prized for its loud honking call and angry bark".

    Good afternoon all.

    Given PM May's constraints and her limitations as a politician, she's done reasonably well. I don't think anyone other than the Ultras on each side will continue to get overly exercised by events. /faintpraise.



  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 1,779

    dixiedean said:

    Also, is Lammy's a particularly egregious freebie? One would have thought Leave EU would be super wary of casting the first stone.

    Entirely coincidentally, Lammy is black and Soros is Jewish.

    Indeed.
  • FPT

    FF43 said:



    I disagree. Membership is massively different from participation on a rule-taking basis. Norway is cool with outsourcing the major part of its foreign policy to a third party. I can't see the UK being so easy-going And even so, the Norwegian government thinks its a nonsense. They have to accept it because they know they won't win a referendum on EU membership.

    Yes you are right about that of course. The role of rule taker is a very silly position for the UK to get itself into. But I don't think many voters will worry about the detail - all they will see is continuing free movement, EU regulation and all the other trappings of membership.
    FF43 is wrong. Norway do not outsource their foreign policy. Indeed they have more direct control over their foreign and trade policy than the UK does.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 16,536

    TGOHF said:

    Yay another "leavers R bad" thread.

    You missed the bit criticising Remain supporting Mrs May?
    Yes - re read it and still can't spot it - which para ?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,512
    edited December 2017

    HYUFD said:

    FPT

    FF43 said:



    I disagree. Membership is massively different from participation on a rule-taking basis. Norway is cool with outsourcing the major part of its foreign policy to a third party. I can't see the UK being so easy-going And even so, the Norwegian government thinks its a nonsense. They have to accept it because they know they won't win a referendum on EU membership.

    Yes you are right about that of course. The role of rule taker is a very silly position for the UK to get itself into. But I don't think many voters will worry about the detail - all they will see is continuing free movement, EU regulation and all the other trappings of membership.
    Yet ended by 2022, the date the next general election is due
    I very much doubt it. The transitional period will only be ended when the UK and EU have agreed on a long-term future relationship - all the evidence is that this will take much more than 2 years. It's already 18 months since the referendum and the cabinet has yet to discuss it.

    Of course we could decide to end the transition and leave without an agreement in in 2021 but no sane government would go over the economic cliff a year before a general election.

    And the EU will have no incentive to hurry the talks - the UK will be continuing to pay into the budget and have no say in the political structure - what's not to like for them?

    So the transition will be prolonged.
    No. The transition period will end in 2021 FTA or no FTA though even if a FTA has not been finalised by then significant progress is likely to have been made on it.

    The Tories are not going to commit political suicide and still leave free movement and ECJ jurisdiction in place at the time of the next general election
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 5,390
    edited December 2017
    HYUFD said:

    FPT

    FF43 said:



    I disagree. Membership is massively different from participation on a rule-taking basis. Norway is cool with outsourcing the major part of its foreign policy to a third party. I can't see the UK being so easy-going And even so, the Norwegian government thinks its a nonsense. They have to accept it because they know they won't win a referendum on EU membership.

    Yes you are right about that of course. The role of rule taker is a very silly position for the UK to get itself into. But I don't think many voters will worry about the detail - all they will see is continuing free movement, EU regulation and all the other trappings of membership.
    Yet ended by 2022, the date the next general election is due
    The EU are extremely vague about what they want from a long term relationship with the UK, but regulatory convergence/alignment/equivalence is a hot issue for them. Given the EU will mostly set the terms for any meaningful relationship, I wouldn't dismiss being a rule-taker long term. But that's a discussion for more than one year hence.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,628

    If only Mrs May had said something like this:

    I want this United Kingdom to emerge from this period of change stronger, fairer, more united and more outward-looking than ever before. I want us to be a secure, prosperous, tolerant country - a magnet for international talent and a home to the pioneers and innovators who will shape the world ahead. I want us to be a truly Global Britain – the best friend and neighbour to our European partners, but a country that reaches beyond the borders of Europe too. A country that goes out into the world to build relationships with old friends and new allies alike......

    We want to guarantee the rights of EU citizens who are already living in Britain, and the rights of British nationals in other member states, as early as we can.

    I have told other EU leaders that we could give people the certainty they want straight away, and reach such a deal now.

    Many of them favour such an agreement - one or two others do not - but I want everyone to know that it remains an important priority for Britain – and for many other member states – to resolve this challenge as soon as possible. Because it is the right and fair thing to do.


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/17/theresa-mays-brexit-speech-full/

    We are told by all of those _who know_ that the vote was to keep the foreigners out. How does being "more outward-looking than ever before" square with this. It would be a betrayal, siri?
  • Mutti (if she's in a job) will be cross:

    Austria's incoming right-wing chancellor Sebastian Kurz joined eastern and central European countries on Friday in backing EU President Donald Tusk's rejection of mandatory refugee quotas.

    Tusk called the troubled scheme "ineffective" and "highly divisive", in a letter to EU leaders before a summit in Brussels that entered its second day Friday.


    https://www.thelocal.at/20171215/austrias-chancellor-in-waiting-sebastian-kurz-sides-with-eu-countries-opposed-to-migrant-quotas
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 1,156
    Excellent header. Agree 100%.
  • TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Yay another "leavers R bad" thread.

    You missed the bit criticising Remain supporting Mrs May?
    Yes - re read it and still can't spot it - which para ?
    Even so, these posters might have been forgotten or implicitly repudiated if May’s government had in its first few weeks and months consciously sought to adopt a conciliatory, friendly and welcoming approach to those left bewildered (at the very least) by the result. And chief among these were the EU citizens who had come here, legally, in good faith, to work and contribute and their families, spouses, friends, colleagues.

    Not to mention those who felt that there was no existential conflict between their identity as British citizens and as EU citizens and resented being forced to choose.
  • TOPPING said:

    If only Mrs May had said something like this:

    I want this United Kingdom to emerge from this period of change stronger, fairer, more united and more outward-looking than ever before. I want us to be a secure, prosperous, tolerant country - a magnet for international talent and a home to the pioneers and innovators who will shape the world ahead. I want us to be a truly Global Britain – the best friend and neighbour to our European partners, but a country that reaches beyond the borders of Europe too. A country that goes out into the world to build relationships with old friends and new allies alike......

    We want to guarantee the rights of EU citizens who are already living in Britain, and the rights of British nationals in other member states, as early as we can.

    I have told other EU leaders that we could give people the certainty they want straight away, and reach such a deal now.

    Many of them favour such an agreement - one or two others do not - but I want everyone to know that it remains an important priority for Britain – and for many other member states – to resolve this challenge as soon as possible. Because it is the right and fair thing to do.


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/17/theresa-mays-brexit-speech-full/

    We are told by all of those _who know_ that the vote was to keep the foreigners out. How does being "more outward-looking than ever before" square with this. It would be a betrayal, siri?
    Demolish your own straw men
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 16,536

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Yay another "leavers R bad" thread.

    You missed the bit criticising Remain supporting Mrs May?
    Yes - re read it and still can't spot it - which para ?
    Even so, these posters might have been forgotten or implicitly repudiated if May’s government had in its first few weeks and months consciously sought to adopt a conciliatory, friendly and welcoming approach to those left bewildered (at the very least) by the result. And chief among these were the EU citizens who had come here, legally, in good faith, to work and contribute and their families, spouses, friends, colleagues.

    Not to mention those who felt that there was no existential conflict between their identity as British citizens and as EU citizens and resented being forced to choose.
    So no criticism of any remainer other than May ?

    I'm unsurprised.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,628

    kyf_100 said:

    Sound post. And it's precisely why I refuse to use the T word about anyone here or elsewhere, even as the debate becomes more and more intemperate. It's completely counterproductive, especially when I'm fairly certain the rebels believe they have Britain's best interests at heart. More importantly intemperate language stirs up the mob and it becomes a JS-Mill-Corn-dealer type thing.

    A quick refresher:

    ...even opinions lose their immunity, when the circumstances in which they are expressed are such as to constitute their expression a positive instigation to some mischievous act. An opinion that corn-dealers are starvers of the poor, or that private property is robbery, ought to be unmolested when simply circulated through the press, but may justly incur punishment when delivered orally to an excited mob assembled before the house of a corn-dealer.

    When does the PB Christmas truce begin?

    The PB Christmas truce starts on Christmas Eve when I invite PBers around to have pineapple on pizza as we watch that perfect Christmas film Die Hard.
    And in the interval (a la Ice Hockey), we will have music by ...
  • TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Yay another "leavers R bad" thread.

    You missed the bit criticising Remain supporting Mrs May?
    Yes - re read it and still can't spot it - which para ?
    Even so, these posters might have been forgotten or implicitly repudiated if May’s government had in its first few weeks and months consciously sought to adopt a conciliatory, friendly and welcoming approach to those left bewildered (at the very least) by the result. And chief among these were the EU citizens who had come here, legally, in good faith, to work and contribute and their families, spouses, friends, colleagues.

    Not to mention those who felt that there was no existential conflict between their identity as British citizens and as EU citizens and resented being forced to choose.
    So no criticism of any remainer other than May ?

    I'm unsurprised.
    There’s also criticism of Labour in the second paragraph.
  • TOPPING said:

    If only Mrs May had said something like this:

    I want this United Kingdom to emerge from this period of change stronger, fairer, more united and more outward-looking than ever before. I want us to be a secure, prosperous, tolerant country - a magnet for international talent and a home to the pioneers and innovators who will shape the world ahead. I want us to be a truly Global Britain – the best friend and neighbour to our European partners, but a country that reaches beyond the borders of Europe too. A country that goes out into the world to build relationships with old friends and new allies alike......

    We want to guarantee the rights of EU citizens who are already living in Britain, and the rights of British nationals in other member states, as early as we can.

    I have told other EU leaders that we could give people the certainty they want straight away, and reach such a deal now.

    Many of them favour such an agreement - one or two others do not - but I want everyone to know that it remains an important priority for Britain – and for many other member states – to resolve this challenge as soon as possible. Because it is the right and fair thing to do.


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/17/theresa-mays-brexit-speech-full/

    We are told by all of those _who know_ that the vote was to keep the foreigners out. How does being "more outward-looking than ever before" square with this. It would be a betrayal, siri?
    Perhaps we should start realising that the people who think they are the people 'who know', don't.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,628
    edited December 2017

    TOPPING said:

    If only Mrs May had said something like this:

    I want this United Kingdom to emerge from this period of change stronger, fairer, more united and more outward-looking than ever before. I want us to be a secure, prosperous, tolerant country - a magnet for international talent and a home to the pioneers and innovators who will shape the world ahead. I want us to be a truly Global Britain – the best friend and neighbour to our European partners, but a country that reaches beyond the borders of Europe too. A country that goes out into the world to build relationships with old friends and new allies alike......

    We want to guarantee the rights of EU citizens who are already living in Britain, and the rights of British nationals in other member states, as early as we can.

    I have told other EU leaders that we could give people the certainty they want straight away, and reach such a deal now.

    Many of them favour such an agreement - one or two others do not - but I want everyone to know that it remains an important priority for Britain – and for many other member states – to resolve this challenge as soon as possible. Because it is the right and fair thing to do.


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/17/theresa-mays-brexit-speech-full/

    We are told by all of those _who know_ that the vote was to keep the foreigners out. How does being "more outward-looking than ever before" square with this. It would be a betrayal, siri?
    Demolish your own straw men
    The problem is, that all of that does not square with stopping foreigners coming here. Now, you may say that it's best that fewer foreigners come here (largely white ones with a similar and shared belief system as us). But it is a very difficult message to send to the foreigners, assuming you want them, to say come hither and oh by the way we as a country have just voted to have fewer of you.

    Innit
  • TOPPING said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Sound post. And it's precisely why I refuse to use the T word about anyone here or elsewhere, even as the debate becomes more and more intemperate. It's completely counterproductive, especially when I'm fairly certain the rebels believe they have Britain's best interests at heart. More importantly intemperate language stirs up the mob and it becomes a JS-Mill-Corn-dealer type thing.

    A quick refresher:

    ...even opinions lose their immunity, when the circumstances in which they are expressed are such as to constitute their expression a positive instigation to some mischievous act. An opinion that corn-dealers are starvers of the poor, or that private property is robbery, ought to be unmolested when simply circulated through the press, but may justly incur punishment when delivered orally to an excited mob assembled before the house of a corn-dealer.

    When does the PB Christmas truce begin?

    The PB Christmas truce starts on Christmas Eve when I invite PBers around to have pineapple on pizza as we watch that perfect Christmas film Die Hard.
    And in the interval (a la Ice Hockey), we will have music by ...
    2 Unlimited.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 1,156
    HYUFD said:



    No. The transition period will end in 2021 FTA or no FTA though even if a FTA has not been finalised by then significant progress is likely to have been made on it.

    The Tories are not going to commit political suicide and still leave free movement and ECJ jurisdiction in place at the time of the next general election

    I know of no authority that thinks an FTA can be finalised and ratified in 2 years. And if there is no FTA then there will be a cliff edge, which will be no more palatable in 2021 than it is now. If the government was going to jump it would do it now, not a year before the next election.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 5,390

    FPT

    FF43 said:



    I disagree. Membership is massively different from participation on a rule-taking basis. Norway is cool with outsourcing the major part of its foreign policy to a third party. I can't see the UK being so easy-going And even so, the Norwegian government thinks its a nonsense. They have to accept it because they know they won't win a referendum on EU membership.

    Yes you are right about that of course. The role of rule taker is a very silly position for the UK to get itself into. But I don't think many voters will worry about the detail - all they will see is continuing free movement, EU regulation and all the other trappings of membership.
    FF43 is wrong. Norway do not outsource their foreign policy. Indeed they have more direct control over their foreign and trade policy than the UK does.
    Norway has no direct input into any EEA-related regulation and legislation. In practice the government and parliament don't even discuss what they want from it because they know it will be ignored. This is in contrast to EU membership as we had, where we had direct input.

    To avoid pointless discussions about how much of Norway's foreign policy is covered by its EEA participation I will correct my original post to Norway is cool with outsourcing A major part of its foreign policy to a third party - rather than THE major part.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,512

    Mutti (if she's in a job) will be cross:

    Austria's incoming right-wing chancellor Sebastian Kurz joined eastern and central European countries on Friday in backing EU President Donald Tusk's rejection of mandatory refugee quotas.

    Tusk called the troubled scheme "ineffective" and "highly divisive", in a letter to EU leaders before a summit in Brussels that entered its second day Friday.


    https://www.thelocal.at/20171215/austrias-chancellor-in-waiting-sebastian-kurz-sides-with-eu-countries-opposed-to-migrant-quotas

    Kurz is the new charismatic leader of Europe's right as Macron is the new charismatic leader of Europe's liberal left, Merkel is becoming old news
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,628

    TOPPING said:

    If only Mrs May had said something like this:

    I want this United Kingdom to emerge from this period of change stronger, fairer, more united and more outward-looking than ever before. I want us to be a secure, prosperous, tolerant country - a magnet for international talent and a home to the pioneers and innovators who will shape the world ahead. I want us to be a truly Global Britain – the best friend and neighbour to our European partners, but a country that reaches beyond the borders of Europe too. A country that goes out into the world to build relationships with old friends and new allies alike......

    We want to guarantee the rights of EU citizens who are already living in Britain, and the rights of British nationals in other member states, as early as we can.

    I have told other EU leaders that we could give people the certainty they want straight away, and reach such a deal now.

    Many of them favour such an agreement - one or two others do not - but I want everyone to know that it remains an important priority for Britain – and for many other member states – to resolve this challenge as soon as possible. Because it is the right and fair thing to do.


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/17/theresa-mays-brexit-speech-full/

    We are told by all of those _who know_ that the vote was to keep the foreigners out. How does being "more outward-looking than ever before" square with this. It would be a betrayal, siri?
    Perhaps we should start realising that the people who think they are the people 'who know', don't.
    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

    Please say it isn't so. They have assured me!
  • calumcalum Posts: 2,901
    Polling frenzy in Catalonia on the last day they can be published - looking like a >80% turnout:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_regional_election,_2017#Opinion_polls
  • Kerching.

    The Royal Wedding is on the 19th of May.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,859
    @SkyNewsBreak: Kensington Palace has confirmed Prince Harry and Meghan Markle will marry on 19 May 2018 at St George's Chapel in Windsor Castle
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 5,390
    John_M said:

    "Daddy, what is a Ukip?".

    "An extinct species of antelope, once prized for its loud honking call and angry bark".

    Good afternoon all.

    Given PM May's constraints and her limitations as a politician, she's done reasonably well. I don't think anyone other than the Ultras on each side will continue to get overly exercised by events. /faintpraise.



    Agreed. May has just about kept the Brexit show on the road.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,512

    HYUFD said:



    No. The transition period will end in 2021 FTA or no FTA though even if a FTA has not been finalised by then significant progress is likely to have been made on it.

    The Tories are not going to commit political suicide and still leave free movement and ECJ jurisdiction in place at the time of the next general election

    I know of no authority that thinks an FTA can be finalised and ratified in 2 years. And if there is no FTA then there will be a cliff edge, which will be no more palatable in 2021 than it is now. If the government was going to jump it would do it now, not a year before the next election.
    No, business just wanted a transition period to prepare which it is getting. The Tories are not going to lose large numbers of Tory Leave voters to UKIP at the next general election by leaving free movement and ECJ jurisdiction in place which is why the transition period will end by the date of the next general election even if FTA talks are ongoing
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 16,536

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Yay another "leavers R bad" thread.

    You missed the bit criticising Remain supporting Mrs May?
    Yes - re read it and still can't spot it - which para ?
    Even so, these posters might have been forgotten or implicitly repudiated if May’s government had in its first few weeks and months consciously sought to adopt a conciliatory, friendly and welcoming approach to those left bewildered (at the very least) by the result. And chief among these were the EU citizens who had come here, legally, in good faith, to work and contribute and their families, spouses, friends, colleagues.

    Not to mention those who felt that there was no existential conflict between their identity as British citizens and as EU citizens and resented being forced to choose.
    So no criticism of any remainer other than May ?

    I'm unsurprised.
    There’s also criticism of Labour in the second paragraph.
    For anti-semitic behaviour 3 decades ago ? Now there is something that isn't in a transition phase.

  • TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Yay another "leavers R bad" thread.

    You missed the bit criticising Remain supporting Mrs May?
    Yes - re read it and still can't spot it - which para ?
    Even so, these posters might have been forgotten or implicitly repudiated if May’s government had in its first few weeks and months consciously sought to adopt a conciliatory, friendly and welcoming approach to those left bewildered (at the very least) by the result. And chief among these were the EU citizens who had come here, legally, in good faith, to work and contribute and their families, spouses, friends, colleagues.

    Not to mention those who felt that there was no existential conflict between their identity as British citizens and as EU citizens and resented being forced to choose.
    So no criticism of any remainer other than May ?

    I'm unsurprised.
    There’s also criticism of Labour in the second paragraph.
    For anti-semitic behaviour 3 decades ago ? Now there is something that isn't in a transition phase.

    A decade ago and currently.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,948

    TOPPING said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Sound post. And it's precisely why I refuse to use the T word about anyone here or elsewhere, even as the debate becomes more and more intemperate. It's completely counterproductive, especially when I'm fairly certain the rebels believe they have Britain's best interests at heart. More importantly intemperate language stirs up the mob and it becomes a JS-Mill-Corn-dealer type thing.

    A quick refresher:

    ...even opinions lose their immunity, when the circumstances in which they are expressed are such as to constitute their expression a positive instigation to some mischievous act. An opinion that corn-dealers are starvers of the poor, or that private property is robbery, ought to be unmolested when simply circulated through the press, but may justly incur punishment when delivered orally to an excited mob assembled before the house of a corn-dealer.

    When does the PB Christmas truce begin?

    The PB Christmas truce starts on Christmas Eve when I invite PBers around to have pineapple on pizza as we watch that perfect Christmas film Die Hard.
    And in the interval (a la Ice Hockey), we will have music by ...
    2 Unlimited.
    So long as the Wireless Craniums don't put in an appearance....

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 16,536
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:



    No. The transition period will end in 2021 FTA or no FTA though even if a FTA has not been finalised by then significant progress is likely to have been made on it.

    The Tories are not going to commit political suicide and still leave free movement and ECJ jurisdiction in place at the time of the next general election

    I know of no authority that thinks an FTA can be finalised and ratified in 2 years. And if there is no FTA then there will be a cliff edge, which will be no more palatable in 2021 than it is now. If the government was going to jump it would do it now, not a year before the next election.
    The Tories are not going to lose large numbers of Tory Leave voters to UKIP at the next general election by leaving free movement and ECJ jurisdiction in place which is why the transition period will end by the date of the next general election even if FTA talks are ongoing
    ^^^ this.

  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:



    No. The transition period will end in 2021 FTA or no FTA though even if a FTA has not been finalised by then significant progress is likely to have been made on it.

    The Tories are not going to commit political suicide and still leave free movement and ECJ jurisdiction in place at the time of the next general election

    I know of no authority that thinks an FTA can be finalised and ratified in 2 years. And if there is no FTA then there will be a cliff edge, which will be no more palatable in 2021 than it is now. If the government was going to jump it would do it now, not a year before the next election.
    No, business just wanted a transition period to prepare which it is getting. The Tories are not going to lose large numbers of Tory Leave voters to UKIP at the next general election by leaving free movement and ECJ jurisdiction in place which is why the transition period will end by the date of the next general election even if FTA talks are ongoing
    In practice, restrictions on free movement are going to be so slight that few will notice the difference. At most, we will be able to get rid of a few Romanian beggars and tweak benefit entitlements a bit...though even this might be difficult under the "regulatory equivalence" that we've agreed to. But the fields will still be full of Latvian strawberry pickers and Pret A Manger will still have its thousands of charming Italian and Spanish baristas. The hard Leave voters who expected a wholesale clearout of foreigners are going to be very disappointed, whether or not free movement can be said to have technically ended.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,512
    edited December 2017
    HHemmelig said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:



    No. The transition period will end in 2021 FTA or no FTA though even if a FTA has not been finalised by then significant progress is likely to have been made on it.

    The Tories are not going to commit political suicide and still leave free movement and ECJ jurisdiction in place at the time of the next general election

    I know of no authority that thinks an FTA can be finalised and ratified in 2 years. And if there is no FTA then there will be a cliff edge, which will be no more palatable in 2021 than it is now. If the government was going to jump it would do it now, not a year before the next election.
    No, business just wanted a transition period to prepare which it is getting. The Tories are not going to lose large numbers of Tory Leave voters to UKIP at the next general election by leaving free movement and ECJ jurisdiction in place which is why the transition period will end by the date of the next general election even if FTA talks are ongoing
    In practice, restrictions on free movement are going to be so slight that few will notice the difference. At most, we will be able to get rid of a few Romanian beggars and tweak benefit entitlements a bit...though even this might be difficult under the "regulatory equivalence" that we've agreed to. But the fields will still be full of Latvian strawberry pickers and Pret A Manger will still have its thousands of charming Italian and Spanish baristas. The hard Leave voters who expected a wholesale clearout of foreigners are going to be very disappointed, whether or not free movement can be said to have technically ended.
    Only a minority even of Leavers wanted mass deportations. A work permits system focused on skills we need is what voters want
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 1,156
    HYUFD said:



    No, business just wanted a transition period to prepare which it is getting. The Tories are not going to lose large numbers of Tory Leave voters to UKIP at the next general election by leaving free movement and ECJ jurisdiction in place which is why the transition period will end by the date of the next general election even if FTA talks are ongoing

    So you forsee hard Brexit in 2021?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,948
    A very clear explanation of the Bitcoin energy use problem (and incidentally why it has nothing to do with block chain technology per se):
    https://www.wired.com/story/bitcoin-global-warming/
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,014
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    If only Mrs May had said something like this:

    I want this United Kingdom to emerge from this period of change stronger, fairer, more united and more outward-looking than ever before. I want us to be a secure, prosperous, tolerant country - a magnet for international talent and a home to the pioneers and innovators who will shape the world ahead. I want us to be a truly Global Britain – the best friend and neighbour to our European partners, but a country that reaches beyond the borders of Europe too. A country that goes out into the world to build relationships with old friends and new allies alike......

    We want to guarantee the rights of EU citizens who are already living in Britain, and the rights of British nationals in other member states, as early as we can.

    I have told other EU leaders that we could give people the certainty they want straight away, and reach such a deal now.

    Many of them favour such an agreement - one or two others do not - but I want everyone to know that it remains an important priority for Britain – and for many other member states – to resolve this challenge as soon as possible. Because it is the right and fair thing to do.


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/17/theresa-mays-brexit-speech-full/

    We are told by all of those _who know_ that the vote was to keep the foreigners out. How does being "more outward-looking than ever before" square with this. It would be a betrayal, siri?
    Demolish your own straw men
    The problem is, that all of that does not square with stopping foreigners coming here. Now, you may say that it's best that fewer foreigners come here (largely white ones with a similar and shared belief system as us). But it is a very difficult message to send to the foreigners, assuming you want them, to say come hither and oh by the way we as a country have just voted to have fewer of you.

    Innit
    If you stopped listening to the strange voices inside your head and started listening to what other people actually say you'd make a lot more sense yourself. Also possibly less bitter.
  • A related point: Leave may have won the vote but they have already completely lost the culture war. In coming generations, Brexit will be seen as an act of malevolent and insular stupidity (thanks in large part to the manner in which the referendum was fought). Future fairy tales will cast Nigel Farage as Maleficent.

    The country will move on when the Conservative party is abandoned on Vagra II.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,512

    HYUFD said:



    No, business just wanted a transition period to prepare which it is getting. The Tories are not going to lose large numbers of Tory Leave voters to UKIP at the next general election by leaving free movement and ECJ jurisdiction in place which is why the transition period will end by the date of the next general election even if FTA talks are ongoing

    So you forsee hard Brexit in 2021?
    Until a FTA is agreed if necessary yes
  • The future of the Tory party speaks, I hope anyway.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,512
    edited December 2017

    A related point: Leave may have won the vote but they have already completely lost the culture war. In coming generations, Brexit will be seen as an act of malevolent and insular stupidity (thanks in large part to the manner in which the referendum was fought). Future fairy tales will cast Nigel Farage as Maleficent.

    The country will move on when the Conservative party is abandoned on Vagra II.

    Or just as likely most of Scandinavia and Eastern Europe will also have left the EU (maybe for an enlarged EFTA with the UK) as it moves towards a United States of Europe and maybe even Italy will have left the Euro too
  • HYUFD said:

    HHemmelig said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:



    No. The transition period will end in 2021 FTA or no FTA though even if a FTA has not been finalised by then significant progress is likely to have been made on it.

    The Tories are not going to commit political suicide and still leave free movement and ECJ jurisdiction in place at the time of the next general election

    I know of no authority that thinks an FTA can be finalised and ratified in 2 years. And if there is no FTA then there will be a cliff edge, which will be no more palatable in 2021 than it is now. If the government was going to jump it would do it now, not a year before the next election.
    No, business just wanted a transition period to prepare which it is getting. The Tories are not going to lose large numbers of Tory Leave voters to UKIP at the next general election by leaving free movement and ECJ jurisdiction in place which is why the transition period will end by the date of the next general election even if FTA talks are ongoing
    In practice, restrictions on free movement are going to be so slight that few will notice the difference. At most, we will be able to get rid of a few Romanian beggars and tweak benefit entitlements a bit...though even this might be difficult under the "regulatory equivalence" that we've agreed to. But the fields will still be full of Latvian strawberry pickers and Pret A Manger will still have its thousands of charming Italian and Spanish baristas. The hard Leave voters who expected a wholesale clearout of foreigners are going to be very disappointed, whether or not free movement can be said to have technically ended.
    Only a minority even of Leavers wanted mass deportations. A work permits system focused on skills we need is what voters want
    Only a minority of Leavers yes - perhaps 20% - but that is still a lot of voters, the majority of whom will have voted Tory or UKIP in 2017. Given what May agreed last week, there is no way that we are going to be able to establish a meaningful work permit system with regard to EU workers - unless it is merely a formality whereby the EU immigrant asks for a permit and is automatically granted one. That is the system in Norway by the way, and I expect the government may set up something similar.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,628
    edited December 2017
    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    If only Mrs May had said something like this:

    I want this United Kingdom to emerge from this period of change stronger, fairer, more united and more outward-looking than ever before. I want us to be a secure, prosperous, tolerant country - a magnet for international talent and a home to the pioneers and innovators who will shape the world ahead. I want us to be a truly Global Britain – the best friend and neighbour to our European partners, but a country that reaches beyond the borders of Europe too. A country that goes out into the world to build relationships with old friends and new allies alike......

    We want to guarantee the rights of EU citizens who are already living in Britain, and the rights of British nationals in other member states, as early as we can.

    I have told other EU leaders that we could give people the certainty they want straight away, and reach such a deal now.

    Many of them favour such an agreement - one or two others do not - but I want everyone to know that it remains an important priority for Britain – and for many other member states – to resolve this challenge as soon as possible. Because it is the right and fair thing to do.


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/17/theresa-mays-brexit-speech-full/

    We are told by all of those _who know_ that the vote was to keep the foreigners out. How does being "more outward-looking than ever before" square with this. It would be a betrayal, siri?
    Demolish your own straw men
    The problem is, that all of that does not square with stopping foreigners coming here. Now, you may say that it's best that fewer foreigners come here (largely white ones with a similar and shared belief system as us). But it is a very difficult message to send to the foreigners, assuming you want them, to say come hither and oh by the way we as a country have just voted to have fewer of you.

    Innit
    If you stopped listening to the strange voices inside your head and started listening to what other people actually say you'd make a lot more sense yourself. Also possibly less bitter.
    I'm a mild man, but that makes me bitter.

    What noises? What strange? What?

    What are you talking about - you are trying to construct an alternative history whereby we didn't just vote to leave the EU because we don't like foreigners. Now don't get me wrong, it doesn't make me feel exactly wonderful either - but we have to listen to the experts, to the guy on QT last night, to our very own XXXXX. We as a country voted to leave because of the furriners.

    And that is a tricky message to sell if you also want to sell the open, outward-looking message also.
  • And people tell me the monarchy is a force for good.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,910
    rkrkrk said:

    If it made you feel instinctively superior - then it has served its purpose.
    Do you think she maybe meant between Scylla and Charybdis ?

    Was Sysiphus not the guy with the stone?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,512
    edited December 2017

    And people tell me the monarchy is a force for good.

    The biggest mass murderers in history, Hitler, Stalin and Mao have all been non monarchical heads of state. Arguably Oliver Cromwell killed more than Henry VIII
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 4,234

    TOPPING said:

    If only Mrs May had said something like this:

    I want this United Kingdom to emerge from this period of change stronger, fairer, more united and more outward-looking than ever before. I want us to be a secure, prosperous, tolerant country - a magnet for international talent and a home to the pioneers and innovators who will shape the world ahead. I want us to be a truly Global Britain – the best friend and neighbour to our European partners, but a country that reaches beyond the borders of Europe too. A country that goes out into the world to build relationships with old friends and new allies alike......

    We want to guarantee the rights of EU citizens who are already living in Britain, and the rights of British nationals in other member states, as early as we can.

    I have told other EU leaders that we could give people the certainty they want straight away, and reach such a deal now.

    Many of them favour such an agreement - one or two others do not - but I want everyone to know that it remains an important priority for Britain – and for many other member states – to resolve this challenge as soon as possible. Because it is the right and fair thing to do.


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/17/theresa-mays-brexit-speech-full/

    We are told by all of those _who know_ that the vote was to keep the foreigners out. How does being "more outward-looking than ever before" square with this. It would be a betrayal, siri?
    Perhaps we should start realising that the people who think they are the people 'who know', don't.
    They do, though. It is because you are a member of the dormant sheeple that you deny this.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,628
    DavidL said:

    rkrkrk said:

    If it made you feel instinctively superior - then it has served its purpose.
    Do you think she maybe meant between Scylla and Charybdis ?

    Was Sysiphus not the guy with the stone?
    I was half wondering that - there is definitely a sentence to write including Sisyphus and Pyhrrus but I'm not sure if the one she wrote was it!
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 779
    Excellent header. Equal firmness was needed against newspapers calling judges enemies of the people as with those wanting to just ignore the referendum. No way back from that - citizens of nowhere and letting those headlines passed has move the government into territory where MPs can call for others to be deselected for not believing enough in Brexit.

    We'd be in a much better place as a country if T May had adopted that approach from day 1.

    And with that, work Christmas lunch time - see you later.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,512
    edited December 2017
    HHemmelig said:

    HYUFD said:

    HHemmelig said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:



    No. The transition period will end in 2021 FTA or no FTA though even if a FTA has not been finalised by then significant progress is likely to have been made on it.

    The Tories are not going to commit political suicide and still leave free movement and ECJ jurisdiction in place at the time of the next general election

    I know of no authority that thinks an FTA can be finalised and ratified in 2 years. And if there is no FTA then there will be a cliff edge, which will be no more palatable in 2021 than it is now. If the government was going to jump it would do it now, not a year before the next election.
    No, business just wanted a transition period to prepare which it is getting. The Tories are not going to lose large numbers of Tory Leave voters to UKIP at the next general election by leaving free movement and ECJ jurisdiction in place which is why the transition period will end by the date of the next general election even if FTA talks are ongoing
    In practice, restrictions on free movement are going to be so slight that few will notice the difference. At most, we will be able to get rid of a few Romanian beggars and tweak benefit entitlements a bit...though even this might be difficult under the "regulatory equivalence" that we've agreed to. But the fields will still be full of Latvian strawberry pickers and Pret A Manger will still have its thousands of charming Italian and Spanish baristas. The hard Leave voters who expected a wholesale clearout of foreigners are going to be very disappointed, whether or not free movement can be said to have technically ended.
    Only a minority even of Leavers wanted mass deportations. A work permits system focused on skills we need is what voters want
    Only a minority of Leavers yes - perhaps 20% - but that is still a lot of voters, the majority of whom will have voted Tory or UKIP in 2017. Given what May agreed last week, there is no way that we are going to be able to establish a meaningful work permit system with regard to EU workers - unless it is merely a formality whereby the EU immigrant asks for a permit and is automatically granted one. That is the system in Norway by the way, and I expect the government may set up something similar.
    It is nowhere near the same number as the roughly 80 to 90% of Leave voters who wanted to end free movement, most of whom voted Tory or UKIP in 2017 too.

    Once we leave the single market in 2021 (unlike Norway which is in the single market) a work permits system will be implemented without problems
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 844

    A related point: Leave may have won the vote but they have already completely lost the culture war. In coming generations, Brexit will be seen as an act of malevolent and insular stupidity (thanks in large part to the manner in which the referendum was fought). Future fairy tales will cast Nigel Farage as Maleficent.

    The country will move on when the Conservative party is abandoned on Vagra II.

    Nobody "wins" the culture war. It's just an ever increasing cycle of animosity amplified by social media that leads to unreasonable polarisation and refusal to compromise or see things from the other side's point of view.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 5,390
    I think it fair to say the fish industry as a whole will be left worse off by Brexit, even if the deep sea fishermen catching quota fish may be slightly better off.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,948
    HYUFD said:

    Mutti (if she's in a job) will be cross:

    Austria's incoming right-wing chancellor Sebastian Kurz joined eastern and central European countries on Friday in backing EU President Donald Tusk's rejection of mandatory refugee quotas.

    Tusk called the troubled scheme "ineffective" and "highly divisive", in a letter to EU leaders before a summit in Brussels that entered its second day Friday.


    https://www.thelocal.at/20171215/austrias-chancellor-in-waiting-sebastian-kurz-sides-with-eu-countries-opposed-to-migrant-quotas

    Kurz is the new charismatic leader of Europe's right as Macron is the new charismatic leader of Europe's liberal left, Merkel is becoming old news
    Kurz... Austria having its Heart of Darkness moment ?

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,948
    DavidL said:

    rkrkrk said:

    If it made you feel instinctively superior - then it has served its purpose.
    Do you think she maybe meant between Scylla and Charybdis ?

    Was Sysiphus not the guy with the stone?
    You are, of course, correct.
    Unless the joke is more subtle than we can get... ??
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 15,917
    kyf_100 said:

    A related point: Leave may have won the vote but they have already completely lost the culture war. In coming generations, Brexit will be seen as an act of malevolent and insular stupidity (thanks in large part to the manner in which the referendum was fought). Future fairy tales will cast Nigel Farage as Maleficent.

    The country will move on when the Conservative party is abandoned on Vagra II.

    Nobody "wins" the culture war. It's just an ever increasing cycle of animosity amplified by social media that leads to unreasonable polarisation and refusal to compromise or see things from the other side's point of view.
    Had Remain won a narrow victory, that logic would stand up, but Leave made the mistake of winning, so now they we have something whose success or failure can be judged relatively objectively.

    Their Pyrrhic victory has merely landed them with the Sisyphean task of justifying why they cannot deliver what was promised.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,512
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mutti (if she's in a job) will be cross:

    Austria's incoming right-wing chancellor Sebastian Kurz joined eastern and central European countries on Friday in backing EU President Donald Tusk's rejection of mandatory refugee quotas.

    Tusk called the troubled scheme "ineffective" and "highly divisive", in a letter to EU leaders before a summit in Brussels that entered its second day Friday.


    https://www.thelocal.at/20171215/austrias-chancellor-in-waiting-sebastian-kurz-sides-with-eu-countries-opposed-to-migrant-quotas

    Kurz is the new charismatic leader of Europe's right as Macron is the new charismatic leader of Europe's liberal left, Merkel is becoming old news
    Kurz... Austria having its Heart of Darkness moment ?

    That was Kurtz not Kurz
  • HHemmeligHHemmelig Posts: 348
    edited December 2017
    HYUFD said:

    HHemmelig said:

    HYUFD said:

    HHemmelig said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:



    No, business just wanted a transition period to prepare which it is getting. The Tories are not going to lose large numbers of Tory Leave voters to UKIP at the next general election by leaving free movement and ECJ jurisdiction in place which is why the transition period will end by the date of the next general election even if FTA talks are ongoing
    In practice, restrictions on free movement are going to be so slight that few will notice the difference. At most, we will be able to get rid of a few Romanian beggars and tweak benefit entitlements a bit...though even this might be difficult under the "regulatory equivalence" that we've agreed to. But the fields will still be full of Latvian strawberry pickers and Pret A Manger will still have its thousands of charming Italian and Spanish baristas. The hard Leave voters who expected a wholesale clearout of foreigners are going to be very disappointed, whether or not free movement can be said to have technically ended.
    Only a minority even of Leavers wanted mass deportations. A work permits system focused on skills we need is what voters want
    Only a minority of Leavers yes - perhaps 20% - but that is still a lot of voters, the majority of whom will have voted Tory or UKIP in 2017. Given what May agreed last week, there is no way that we are going to be able to establish a meaningful work permit system with regard to EU workers - unless it is merely a formality whereby the EU immigrant asks for a permit and is automatically granted one. That is the system in Norway by the way, and I expect the government may set up something similar.
    It is nowhere near the same number as the roughly 80 to 90% of Leave voters who wanted to end free movement, most of whom voted Tory or UKIP in 2017 too.

    Once we leave the single market in 2021 (unlike Norway which is in the single market) a work permits system will be implemented without problems
    A work permit system that will be nothing more than a formality, therefore a meaningless sop for the sake of appearances which will have no impact on the immigration stats.

    Ditto we may be officially out of the single market but we will still be totally aligned with it as per May's deal last week.

    We are headed for Norway brexit in all but name.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,512
    edited December 2017
    HHemmelig said:

    HYUFD said:

    HHemmelig said:

    HYUFD said:

    HHemmelig said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:



    No, business just wanted a transition period to prepare which it is getting. The Tories are not going to lose large numbers of Tory Leave voters to UKIP at the next general election by leaving free movement and ECJ jurisdiction in place which is why the transition period will end by the date of the next general election even if FTA talks are ongoing
    In practice, restrictions on free movement are going to be so slight that few will notice the difference. At most, we will be able to get rid of a few Romanian beggars and tweak benefit entitlements a bit...though even this might be difficult under the "regulatory equivalence" that we've agreed to. But the fields will still be full of Latvian strawberry pickers and Pret A Manger will still have its thousands of charming Italian and Spanish baristas. The hard Leave voters who expected a wholesale clearout of foreigners are going to be very disappointed, whether or not free movement can be said to have technically ended.
    Only a minority even of Leavers wanted mass deportations. A work permits system focused on skills we need is what voters want
    Only a minority of Leavers yes - perhaps 20% - but that is still a lot of voters, the majority of whom will have voted Tory or UKIP in 2017. Given what May agreed last week, there is no way that we are going to be able to establish a meaningful work permit system with regard to EU workers - unless it is merely a formality whereby the EU immigrant asks for a permit and is automatically granted one. That is the system in Norway by the way, and I expect the government may set up something similar.
    It is nowhere near the same number as the roughly 80 to 90% of Leave voters who wanted to end free movement, most of whom voted Tory or UKIP in 2017 too.

    Once we leave the single market in 2021 (unlike Norway which is in the single market) a work permits system will be implemented without problems
    A work permit system that will be nothing more than a formality, therefore a meaningless sop for the sake of appearances which will have no impact on the immigration stats.

    Ditto we may be officially out of the single market but we will still be totally aligned with it as per May's deal last week.

    We are headed for Norway brexit in all but name.
    No. Free movement means any EU citizen can come here to work, travel or study, live or even look for work for 3 months. Work permits will only be given to those whose skills the UK needs. Norway has to accept free movement
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,948
    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mutti (if she's in a job) will be cross:

    Austria's incoming right-wing chancellor Sebastian Kurz joined eastern and central European countries on Friday in backing EU President Donald Tusk's rejection of mandatory refugee quotas.

    Tusk called the troubled scheme "ineffective" and "highly divisive", in a letter to EU leaders before a summit in Brussels that entered its second day Friday.


    https://www.thelocal.at/20171215/austrias-chancellor-in-waiting-sebastian-kurz-sides-with-eu-countries-opposed-to-migrant-quotas

    Kurz is the new charismatic leader of Europe's right as Macron is the new charismatic leader of Europe's liberal left, Merkel is becoming old news
    Kurz... Austria having its Heart of Darkness moment ?

    That was Kurtz not Kurz
    You quibble, sir.

  • Directly on topic, a thread from Theo Bertram explaining that it's not just winning the campaign but how you campaign that matters:

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,910

    kyf_100 said:

    A related point: Leave may have won the vote but they have already completely lost the culture war. In coming generations, Brexit will be seen as an act of malevolent and insular stupidity (thanks in large part to the manner in which the referendum was fought). Future fairy tales will cast Nigel Farage as Maleficent.

    The country will move on when the Conservative party is abandoned on Vagra II.

    Nobody "wins" the culture war. It's just an ever increasing cycle of animosity amplified by social media that leads to unreasonable polarisation and refusal to compromise or see things from the other side's point of view.
    Had Remain won a narrow victory, that logic would stand up, but Leave made the mistake of winning, so now they we have something whose success or failure can be judged relatively objectively.

    Their Pyrrhic victory has merely landed them with the Sisyphean task of justifying why they cannot deliver what was promised.
    Yes, that's a sentence with both that actually makes sense. It's wrong of course but it makes sense. I don't think her's ever did. No wonder the sub editor cut it.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 5,390
    TOPPING said:

    The problem is, that all of that does not square with stopping foreigners coming here. Now, you may say that it's best that fewer foreigners come here (largely white ones with a similar and shared belief system as us). But it is a very difficult message to send to the foreigners, assuming you want them, to say come hither and oh by the way we as a country have just voted to have fewer of you.

    Innit

    I thought Brexit would make very little difference to the levels of immigration, beyond recessionary effects. I was wrong. You can effectively reduce immigration simply by creating an unwelcoming atmosphere. I wouldn't say it is "control" and the more valuable immigrants with choices will stay away. It isn't a Britain I really want to be a part of. But it does get the numbers down.

  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 844

    kyf_100 said:

    A related point: Leave may have won the vote but they have already completely lost the culture war. In coming generations, Brexit will be seen as an act of malevolent and insular stupidity (thanks in large part to the manner in which the referendum was fought). Future fairy tales will cast Nigel Farage as Maleficent.

    The country will move on when the Conservative party is abandoned on Vagra II.

    Nobody "wins" the culture war. It's just an ever increasing cycle of animosity amplified by social media that leads to unreasonable polarisation and refusal to compromise or see things from the other side's point of view.
    Had Remain won a narrow victory, that logic would stand up, but Leave made the mistake of winning, so now they we have something whose success or failure can be judged relatively objectively.

    Their Pyrrhic victory has merely landed them with the Sisyphean task of justifying why they cannot deliver what was promised.
    Brexit can't be delivered
    Why not?
    We are too intertwined with the EU.
    But that's why I voted to leave.

    Repeat ad nauseam.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,628
    DavidL said:

    kyf_100 said:

    A related point: Leave may have won the vote but they have already completely lost the culture war. In coming generations, Brexit will be seen as an act of malevolent and insular stupidity (thanks in large part to the manner in which the referendum was fought). Future fairy tales will cast Nigel Farage as Maleficent.

    The country will move on when the Conservative party is abandoned on Vagra II.

    Nobody "wins" the culture war. It's just an ever increasing cycle of animosity amplified by social media that leads to unreasonable polarisation and refusal to compromise or see things from the other side's point of view.
    Had Remain won a narrow victory, that logic would stand up, but Leave made the mistake of winning, so now they we have something whose success or failure can be judged relatively objectively.

    Their Pyrrhic victory has merely landed them with the Sisyphean task of justifying why they cannot deliver what was promised.
    Yes, that's a sentence with both that actually makes sense. It's wrong of course but it makes sense. I don't think her's ever did. No wonder the sub editor cut it.
    One can only hope she is as we speak getting malletted on Twitter.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,509
    Interesting Article.

    I watched the 1983 Election night programme. Pundits and politicians alike were surprised by the result and had no idea what the election meant. At one point Ted Heath was asked whether he would serve in Thatcher's cabinet.

    The point being is that the world has changed and if Brexit happens, there is no going back. There may be no healing to be done. Things will just move on and new problems will take over. Old devisions will never heal, but be replaced with new ones. Some will never get over it.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,910
    FF43 said:

    TOPPING said:

    The problem is, that all of that does not square with stopping foreigners coming here. Now, you may say that it's best that fewer foreigners come here (largely white ones with a similar and shared belief system as us). But it is a very difficult message to send to the foreigners, assuming you want them, to say come hither and oh by the way we as a country have just voted to have fewer of you.

    Innit

    I thought Brexit would make very little difference to the levels of immigration, beyond recessionary effects. I was wrong. You can effectively reduce immigration simply by creating an unwelcoming atmosphere. I wouldn't say it is "control" and the more valuable immigrants with choices will stay away. It isn't a Britain I really want to be a part of. But it does get the numbers down.

    The concessions made to EU citizens here on the relevant date which allowed them to bring in spouses and relatives make any meaningful reduction in immigration unlikely. Despite the government's best efforts non EU immigration has been running at approximately 100k a year. That has arisen because a large community from the sub continent was already settled here and choose to take spouses and bring relatives here to join them when they can afford to do so. If the 4m or so EU citizens have enhanced rights (eg no financial criteria) it is reasonable to expect a pretty similar level of immigration from similar causes.

    I therefore expect post EU immigration to remain at pretty much the 200K a year level unless we have a serious downturn in our economy.
  • TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    kyf_100 said:

    A related point: Leave may have won the vote but they have already completely lost the culture war. In coming generations, Brexit will be seen as an act of malevolent and insular stupidity (thanks in large part to the manner in which the referendum was fought). Future fairy tales will cast Nigel Farage as Maleficent.

    The country will move on when the Conservative party is abandoned on Vagra II.

    Nobody "wins" the culture war. It's just an ever increasing cycle of animosity amplified by social media that leads to unreasonable polarisation and refusal to compromise or see things from the other side's point of view.
    Had Remain won a narrow victory, that logic would stand up, but Leave made the mistake of winning, so now they we have something whose success or failure can be judged relatively objectively.

    Their Pyrrhic victory has merely landed them with the Sisyphean task of justifying why they cannot deliver what was promised.
    Yes, that's a sentence with both that actually makes sense. It's wrong of course but it makes sense. I don't think her's ever did. No wonder the sub editor cut it.
    One can only hope she is as we speak getting malletted on Twitter.
    I think you've misunderstood. She was trying (unsuccessfully!) to make an over-clever joke Sisyphus = rock, Pyrrhic = hard-place.

    No, it doesn't really work.
  • HHemmeligHHemmelig Posts: 348
    edited December 2017
    HYUFD

    I have lived & worked in Norway. They have some very limited controls of freedom of movement, as Richard Tyndall has explained previously. Largely consisting of a work permit system which is a mere formality for immigrants from the EEA.

    If you think that, post-Brexit, EU citizens will no longer be able to come here freely looking for work you are in for a very big disappointment indeed. A work permit system where we meaningfully control the number of permits will not be possible under soft Brexit.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 30,933
    Time for more blockquote lessons? :p
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,512
    edited December 2017
    HHemmelig said:

    HYUFD said:

    HHemmelig said:

    HYUFD said:

    HHemmelig said:

    HYUFD said:

    HHemmelig said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:



    Only a minority of Leavers yes - perhaps 20% - but that is still a lot of voters, the majority of whom will have voted Tory or UKIP in 2017. Given what May agreed last week, there is no way that we are going to be able to establish a meaningful work permit system with regard to EU workers - unless it is merely a formality whereby the EU immigrant asks for a permit and is automatically granted one. That is the system in Norway by the way, and I expect the government may set up something similar.
    It is nowhere near the same number as the roughly 80 to 90% of Leave voters who wanted to end free movement, most of whom voted Tory or UKIP in 2017 too.

    Once we leave the single market in 2021 (unlike Norway which is in the single market) a work permits system will be implemented without problems
    A work permit system that will be nothing more than a formality, therefore a meaningless sop for the sake of appearances which will have no impact on the immigration stats.

    Ditto we may be officially out of the single market but we will still be totally aligned with it as per May's deal last week.

    We are headed for Norway brexit in all but name.
    No. Free movement means any EU citizen can come here to work, travel or study or even look for work for 3 months. Work permits will only be given to those whose skills the UK needs. Norway has to accept free movement
    I have lived & worked in Norway. They have some very limited controls of freedom of movement, as Richard Tyndall has explained previously. Largely consisting of a work permit system which is a mere formality for immigrants from the EEA.

    If you think that, post-Brexit, EU citizens will no longer be able to come here freely looking for work you are in for a very big disappointment indeed. A work permit system where we meaningfully control the number of permits will not be possible under soft Brexit.
    Yet we are not getting soft Brexit and not staying in the single market like Norway is. A FTA as a goal may avoid full, hard Brexit but it is not soft Brexit either. Whenever will have more flexibility than Norway on work permits
  • RobDRobD Posts: 30,933
    HHemmelig said:

    HYUFD

    I have lived & worked in Norway. They have some very limited controls of freedom of movement, as Richard Tyndall has explained previously. Largely consisting of a work permit system which is a mere formality for immigrants from the EEA.

    If you think that, post-Brexit, EU citizens will no longer be able to come here freely looking for work you are in for a very big disappointment indeed. A work permit system where we meaningfully control the number of permits will not be possible under soft Brexit.

    There's going to be a soft brexit?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,859
    kyf_100 said:

    Brexit can't be delivered
    Why not?
    We are too intertwined with the EU.
    But that's why I voted to leave.

    That's not true though

    The Brexit promised by the Leave campaign can't be delivered
    Why not?
    Because it was bullshit
    Can any form of Brexit be delivered?
    Only if you are prepared to accept massive economic loss
    Why not?
    We are too intertwined with the EU to leave without seriously damaging the economy.
    I didn't see that on the side of a bus.
    The bus was a lie.
    But that's why I voted to leave.

    Unlucky...
This discussion has been closed.