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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The dangers of reverse-reasoning: a Christmas parable

SystemSystem Posts: 5,841
edited December 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The dangers of reverse-reasoning: a Christmas parable

“This time next year, we’ll be running the country”, as Jeremy Corbyn didn’t quite say a few days ago in his interview with Grazia. It’s a near-repetition of his prediction at Glastonbury this June – except that there he was talking about Christmas 2017 rather than 2018 – and for those not favourably inclined towards him, might bear a passing resemblance to the unsubstantiated optimism of another Christmas staple. Admittedly, Del Boy did eventually become a millionaire but it took him 15 years and an extraordinary slice of luck. Corbyn may also end up being right but if he is, it too will be more down to luck than judgement. The error in his prediction is in starting with a conclusion he wants to be true and working backwards from there.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    first past the post!
  • Second! Like Remain &Corbyn...
  • Lovely seasonal thread.....Mr Corbyn will not be PM by Christmas 2018, 2019, 2020 or 2021. 2022 remains a possibility....

    FPT those gleefully predicting longer EU immigration queues for British passport (of any colour) holders post Brexit seem unaware that that can cut both ways. Longer queues in the EU could mean shorter queues in the U.K....
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,214
    Latest official revisions mean UK economy grew just a natch below 2% in 2016, same as Germany and above US/Canada (1.5%), France (1.1%), Italy/Japan (1%). So joint first for growth in 2016.

    Thought I'd beat Scott_P to it.:-)
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited December 2017
    Though as The Onion once headlined "Small Discrepancy Found in Bible!"

    The Nativity story is rather sweet, but does rather lack in historical verification. There is no record of such a census requiring a return to birthplace. Jesus was brought up in Gallilee in the north of Israel. There is also no verification of the massscre of the innocents or flight into Egypt. Jesus's first life experience was as a refugee it seems.

    The Gospel of St Luke rather works backwards itself, so as to "prove" the lineage of Jesus as of the House of David, and neatly arrange for the Messiah to fulfil prophecy and to be born in Bethlehem.

    The three astrologers who feature in the story bring unusual presents. Gold, Frankincense and Myrrh. The symbolism of these is the the recognition of the baby Jesus as in turn king (gold), prophet (frankincense) and corpse (mhyrr - used for embalming) thereby setting up the story that ends in the Easter Passion 30 odd years later. One would have thought Mhyrr a little inappropriate as a gift to a new mother!

    The Nativity rather neatly sets up Jesus as meeting the criteria for the Messiah prophecied in the Old Testament, and that his life's purpose was to die as a sacrifice.

    I am not a Biblical literalist, and find the emphasis wrong in the Gospels, with such a strong emphasis on the birth and death of Jesus. I find much more inspiration in the teachings that Jesus carried out during his time on earth, particularly in the preaching in Gallilee as found in the Sermon on the Mount. This is why He came.

    DH is right on the money on working backwards to get to the "right" conclusion. The entire Nativity is based on it. It should be treated not as Fake News, but rather as a poetic or literary truth rather than a scientific one. We can learn a lot from stories and patables, indeed Jesus taught primarily by this means. As an even older writer wrote: there is nothing new under the sun.

    Happy Christmas fellow PBers,
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 3,974
    Very philosophical Mr Herdson.

    I shall stay with your Xmas theme and wish Merry Xmas to all PBers in case I do not get the chance later.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 10,725
    Like that piece, especially the conclusion Mr H.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 3,974

    Lovely seasonal thread.....Mr Corbyn will not be PM by Christmas 2018, 2019, 2020 or 2021. 2022 remains a possibility....

    FPT those gleefully predicting longer EU immigration queues for British passport (of any colour) holders post Brexit seem unaware that that can cut both ways. Longer queues in the EU could mean shorter queues in the U.K....

    The advantage of having two passports - I can use whichever gets me through the shortest queue. Having said that, now that we are busy chanting "Foreigners! Foreigners! Foreigners! Out! Out! Out!", perhaps the EU queue at the UK Border will be so short that it might be quicker to use my EU passport to get back in to the UK ;) ;)
  • Lovely seasonal thread.....Mr Corbyn will not be PM by Christmas 2018, 2019, 2020 or 2021. 2022 remains a possibility....

    FPT those gleefully predicting longer EU immigration queues for British passport (of any colour) holders post Brexit seem unaware that that can cut both ways. Longer queues in the EU could mean shorter queues in the U.K....

    now that we are busy chanting "Foreigners! Foreigners! Foreigners! Out! Out! Out!"
    I have noticed that refrain from Remainers, yes.
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,214

    Lovely seasonal thread.....Mr Corbyn will not be PM by Christmas 2018, 2019, 2020 or 2021. 2022 remains a possibility....

    FPT those gleefully predicting longer EU immigration queues for British passport (of any colour) holders post Brexit seem unaware that that can cut both ways. Longer queues in the EU could mean shorter queues in the U.K....

    now that we are busy chanting "Foreigners! Foreigners! Foreigners! Out! Out! Out!"
    I have noticed that refrain from Remainers, yes.
    Yup - first time I've heard that and from a 'remainer' too. Very unpleasant especially at this festive time.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,419
    Because Jeremy Corbyn is Brexit's Bezzy Mate - and he likes the symbolism?
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 3,974
    edited December 2017

    Though as The Onion once headlined "Small Discrepancy Found in Bible!"

    The Nativity story is rather sweet, but does rather lack in historical verification. There is no record of such a census requiring a return to birthplace. Jesus was brought up in Gallilee in the north of Israel.

    The details have never bothered me too much. As an atheist, I regard organised religion as a form of crowd control and therefore the nativity story as nothing more than part of the package by the marketing dept early church to sell the concept to non-believers. They even appropriated the spring and winter festivals from whatever locals were handy and rebadged them as Easter and Xmas.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 3,974
    edited December 2017
    .
  • Because Jeremy Corbyn is Brexit's Bezzy Mate - and he likes the symbolism?
    David Lammy showing his usual grasp of the facts:

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 27,653
    edited December 2017

    .Only when in an EU country and referring to Brits :D

    Bit nippy up there on the moral high ground?
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,424
    Is David Lammy talking bollocks? it wouldn't be for the first time now would it?
    From what I heard on ITV news last night OLD EU passports would be allowed to be used until they expired, so where does Lammy's £500 million come in?
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 3,974

    Bit nippy up there on the moral high ground?

    Obviously. I have removed the more recent post because if allusions are to be treated as actuality there seems little point ....
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,131

    Though as The Onion once headlined "Small Discrepancy Found in Bible!"

    The Nativity story is rather sweet, but does rather lack in historical verification. There is no record of such a census requiring a return to birthplace. Jesus was brought up in Gallilee in the north of Israel. There is also no verification of the massscre of the innocents or flight into Egypt. Jesus's first life experience was as a refugee it seems.

    The Gospel of St Luke rather works backwards itself, so as to "prove" the lineage of Jesus as of the House of David, and neatly arrange for the Messiah to fulfil prophecy and to be born in Bethlehem.

    The three astrologers who feature in the story bring unusual presents. Gold, Frankincense and Myrrh. The symbolism of these is the the recognition of the baby Jesus as in turn king (gold), prophet (frankincense) and corpse (mhyrr - used for embalming) thereby setting up the story that ends in the Easter Passion 30 odd years later. One would have thought Mhyrr a little inappropriate as a gift to a new mother!

    The Nativity rather neatly sets up Jesus as meeting the criteria for the Messiah prophecied in the Old Testament, and that his life's purpose was to die as a sacrifice.

    I am not a Biblical literalist, and find the emphasis wrong in the Gospels, with such a strong emphasis on the birth and death of Jesus. I find much more inspiration in the teachings that Jesus carried out during his time on earth, particularly in the preaching in Gallilee as found in the Sermon on the Mount. This is why He came.

    DH is right on the money on working backwards to get to the "right" conclusion. The entire Nativity is based on it. It should be treated not as Fake News, but rather as a poetic or literary truth rather than a scientific one. We can learn a lot from stories and patables, indeed Jesus taught primarily by this means. As an even older writer wrote: there is nothing new under the sun.

    Happy Christmas fellow PBers,

    Most of the "life story" parts of the Gospel are tailored for the message - as you say, fulfilling the OT prophecies.

    That being said the teachings - while inspirational - are only incidental to the story: ultimately it's about redemption through sacrifice: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16).

    The Lamb of God was the completion of the sacrificial requirement of the Old Testament, and the mirror of the story of Abraham and Isaac.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 27,653
    edited December 2017

    Is David Lammy talking bollocks? it wouldn't be for the first time now would it?
    From what I heard on ITV news last night OLD EU passports would be allowed to be used until they expired, so where does Lammy's £500 million come in?

    Some Labour MPs seem to have thought that the cost of changing the colour was £500million - it’s simply the cost of a renewed contract - irrespective of the colour chosen. Mind you, it seems to have upset all the right people.....Corbyn’s lack of comment may have been the smartest move....
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    Amen to the last paragraph.

    Happy Xmas.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 10,725
    Treating it with the contempt it deserved? And yes I know I posted about and even ran a sort of forum group with posters on another website.
  • Nice message, David.

    I'm off overseas for Christmas today for a week, so will join others in wishing everyone on politicalbetting a very Merry Christmas.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited December 2017
    Charles said:

    Though as The Onion once headlined "Small Discrepancy Found in Bible!"

    The Nativity story is rather sweet, but does rather lack in historical verification. There is no record of such a census requiring a return to birthplace. Jesus was brought up in Gallilee in the north of Israel. There is also no verification of the massscre of the innocents or flight into Egypt. Jesus's first life experience was as a refugee it seems.

    The Gospel of St Luke rather works backwards itself, so as to "prove" the lineage of Jesus as of the House of David, and neatly arrange for the Messiah to fulfil prophecy and to be born in Bethlehem.

    The three astrologers who feature in the story bring unusual presents. Gold, Frankincense and Myrrh. The symbolism of these is the the recognition of the baby Jesus as in turn king (gold), prophet (frankincense) and corpse (mhyrr - used for embalming) thereby setting up the story that ends in the Easter Passion 30 odd years later. One would have thought Mhyrr a little inappropriate as a gift to a new mother!

    The Nativity rather neatly sets up Jesus as meeting the criteria for the Messiah prophecied in the Old Testament, and that his life's purpose was to die as a sacrifice.

    Happy Christmas fellow PBers,

    Most of the "life story" parts of the Gospel are tailored for the message - as you say, fulfilling the OT prophecies.

    That being said the teachings - while inspirational - are only incidental to the story: ultimately it's about redemption through sacrifice: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16).

    The Lamb of God was the completion of the sacrificial requirement of the Old Testament, and the mirror of the story of Abraham and Isaac.
    I would disagree, but that is an argument about the significance of Easter rather than Christmas!

    To take a revolutionary perspective: The historical Jesus was probably from Nazarath, the son of a single mother, and whose family moved to Egypt as economic migrants rather than refugees. His message was a direct threat to both spiritual authorities in the Holy Land (the Sanhedrin) and to the political ones (the Roman puppet ruler, Herod). Jesus was genuinely of humble origin, and the Nativity story rather artificiallty designed to make him of Royal descent (though here there is a contradiction in that Joseph was not his father!).

    Leftists should note however that Jesus's kingdom is not of this earth, he did not join the Zealot nationalist guerrillas. His message was far more revolutionary, and rooted in the ascetic spirituality of the Nazarene sect rather than nationalistic or class warfare.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 4,286
    Dr Fox,

    A nice summary.

    The Gospels were written for a purpose - to bring the good news to everyone. Matthew and Luke include the birth narrative for their purposes. Matthew in particular wanted to emphasise the foretelling in the OT. All four Gospels generally differ in details.

    They were converts/enthusiasts, as are some of the Jezzarites.

    The big difference - I don't think Jezzarites preach loving your neighbour as yourself, though, not when your neighbours include Tories. Even Andy Burnham hates them..
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 4,286
    On a philosophical note, I've always liked the Tower of Babel story. Warning man not to get too uppity and assume he knows so much.

    We know a little bit about some of the 5% of the universe we vaguely understand works. We may eventually understand what Dark Energy and Dark Matter do. The why is a different question.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 9,439
    edited December 2017

    Jesus was genuinely of humble origin, and the Nativity story rather artificiallty designed to make him of Royal descent (though here there is a contradiction in that Joseph was not his father!).

    Actually it's even simpler than that. According to Old Testament prophecies, especially Micah, the Messiah would be descended from David and born in Bethlehem. So the nativity story as told by Matthew is included to fulfil that criteria. (Every part of Matthew's Gospel is like that - if you want to have fun, go through and count the number of times Matthew says 'he did this to fulfil what X said about Y' - don't do it as a drinking game though as you will end up totally wasted.)
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 13,870
    Merry Christmas to all of pb. It's been avery interesting year. I hope everyone has a wonderful time with their family over the next few days.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,419

    Because Jeremy Corbyn is Brexit's Bezzy Mate - and he likes the symbolism?
    David Lammy showing his usual grasp of the facts:

    Lammy is several sprouts short of a Christmas dinner.....

    Or maybe he's just showing Labour's usual befuddlement with big numbers.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,419
    Everyone on the move for Christmas - travel safe.

    Everyone staying put - enjoy the Christmas essentials: a tin of Quality Street and Die Hard....

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 9,640
    ydoethur said:

    Jesus was genuinely of humble origin, and the Nativity story rather artificiallty designed to make him of Royal descent (though here there is a contradiction in that Joseph was not his father!).

    Actually it's even simpler than that. According to Old Testament prophecies, especially Micah, the Messiah would be descended from David and born in Bethlehem. So the nativity story as told by Matthew is included to fulfil that criteria. (Every part of Matthew's Gospel is like that - if you want to have fun, go through and count the number of times Matthew says 'he did this to fulfil what X said about Y' - don't do it as a drinking game though as you will end up totally wasted.)
    As drinking games go, that's a rare one nowadays
  • Good morning, everyone.

    Nice article, Mr. Herdson. It also reminds me of my Religious Studies class, which described religion as a posteriori (starting off with the conclusion you want then working backwards to look for evidence) and science [theoretically...] as a priori (looking at the evidence and then reaching a conclusion that fits).

    One of them is literally backward. But still employed by a great many people in a great many ways. Leaving aside religion or the Cult of Corbyn, there's a suspicion in psychological circles that lots of the time we aren't reasonable, but start off with a gut response then seek to rationalise it.

    That's not always wrong, as gut instincts can be right (although it can be argued that if you're thinking with your guts you have shit for brains), but taken beyond the realms of rationality you end up with craziness. Like thinking you can borrow your way to prosperity, or that your god wants you to murder everyone who doesn't worship him the way you do, or that Caesar was a better general than Hannibal.
  • Second like
    CD13 said:

    Dr Fox,


    The big difference - I don't think Jezzarites preach loving your neighbour as yourself, though, not when your neighbours include Tories. Even Andy Burnham hates them..

    Hate the sin, love the sinner.

  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,424

    Is David Lammy talking bollocks? it wouldn't be for the first time now would it?
    From what I heard on ITV news last night OLD EU passports would be allowed to be used until they expired, so where does Lammy's £500 million come in?

    Some Labour MPs seem to have thought that the cost of changing the colour was £500million - it’s simply the cost of a renewed contract - irrespective of the colour chosen. Mind you, it seems to have upset all the right people.....Corbyn’s lack of comment may have been the smartest move....
    Well if they thought that then they are stupid in the extreme.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 4,286
    Mr Dancer,

    I've always liked the fact that there is a universal speed limit. That means that if there are aliens, we may one day see them, through powerful telescopes, waving and mooning at us. But it may billions of years in the past. We will literally be seeing dead people.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,131

    Charles said:

    Though as The Onion once headlined "Small Discrepancy Found in Bible!"

    The Nativity story is rather sweet, but does rather lack in historical verification. There is no record of such a census requiring a return to birthplace. Jesus was brought up in Gallilee in the north of Israel. There is also no verification of the massscre of the innocents or flight into Egypt. Jesus's first life experience was as a refugee it seems.

    The Gospel of St Luke rather works backwards itself, so as to "prove" the lineage of Jesus as of the House of David, and neatly arrange for the Messiah to fulfil prophecy and to be born in Bethlehem

    The Nativity rather neatly sets up Jesus as meeting the criteria for the Messiah prophecied in the Old Testament, and that his life's purpose was to die as a sacrifice.

    Happy Christmas fellow PBers,

    Most of the "life story" parts of the Gospel are tailored for the message - as you say, fulfilling the OT prophecies.

    That being said the teachings - while inspirational - are only incidental to the story: ultimately it's about redemption through sacrifice: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16).

    The Lamb of God was the completion of the sacrificial requirement of the Old Testament, and the mirror of the story of Abraham and Isaac.
    I would disagree, but that is an argument about the significance of Easter rather than Christmas!

    To take a revolutionary perspective: The historical Jesus was probably from Nazarath, the son of a single mother, and whose family moved to Egypt as economic migrants rather than refugees. His message was a direct threat to both spiritual authorities in the Holy Land (the Sanhedrin) and to the political ones (the Roman puppet ruler, Herod). Jesus was genuinely of humble origin, and the Nativity story rather artificiallty designed to make him of Royal descent (though here there is a contradiction in that Joseph was not his father!).

    Leftists should note however that Jesus's kingdom is not of this earth, he did not join the Zealot nationalist guerrillas. His message was far more revolutionary, and rooted in the ascetic spirituality of the Nazarene sect rather than nationalistic or class warfare.
    You clipped from your original post the but I had issue with! (The focus on teaching rather than the spiritual aspects)

    I'm not convinced he was from Nazareth (it was a tiny village which few would have known) - more likely the medival monks mistranslated "Jesus the Nazarene" as "Jesus of Nazareth"

    But yes his message was far more revolutionary than anything of this world
  • Technically his tweet is accurate, or at least the part about it costing £500M. It is just that the other passports would have cost £500M as well so this isn't an extra cost.

    The problem then being he either didn't know or is being intentionally misleading.

  • Mr. Root, indeed. They're either knowingly lying or very stupid.

    Mr. CD13, indeed. Another fun fact of the speed limit is that if you put an infinitely powerful telescope at the far end of the universe it wouldn't be able to see the other side because insufficient time has passed for the light to reach the telescope.
  • Welcome to pb.com, Mr. Jezziah.
  • Thank you and for the other welcomes I received.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 9,620
    Tis easier for a PB Tory to pass through the eye of a needle ........

    Lights blue touch paper and runs like fool
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,606
    Well that's an unexpected header.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,828

    RoyalBlue said:

    Anorak said:

    Nick has lots of fans on here because he minds his p's and q's, but i'm afraid i'm not one of them.

    He's certainly intelligent but there's something highly disingenuous about the man, and he uses his politeness and false sincerity as a weapon.

    I can't think of a single reason that you'd choose to write that that doesn't paint you as a very unpleasant person.

    Just unnecessary.
    Dr Palmer, having been democratically elected, voted to give away powers to the EU and thus put them beyond direct democratic control, despite having been elected on a manifesto which promised a public vote first.

    Frankly, Casino is being generous.
    Thanks, RoyalBlue.

    What I find unpleasant is going from toadying Blairite careerist, and pro-Iraq war advocate, to out-and-proud Corbynite eurocommunist, without missing a step, at all stages proclaiming to be entirely sincere, and consistently playing down any significance of the argument either which way in the hope of winning over as many to it as possible, without actually being sincere. I find it manipulative and dishonest. And the "politeness" doesn't make up for that.

    I can't respect someone like that. I'd far rather have someone who cut the crap and occasionally swore at me, but who I knew was the real deal.

    That's why I (genuinely) really like Labour posters like Jonathan, BJO and Southam, but I can't stand Nick Palmer.
    I just picked up this from a previous thread. If any of us Remainers wondered whether we were being a little harsh on the motivation and personality of some Leavers the tag team of Royal Blue and Casino Royale are worth looking at. There are occasional unpleasant posts on here but the viscerality of these two posters whose hate oozes through their every word shows in glorious technicolour the Faragian ugliness that we as a country are now facing
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,606

    Technically his tweet is accurate, or at least the part about it costing £500M. It is just that the other passports would have cost £500M as well so this isn't an extra cost.

    The problem then being he either didn't know or is being intentionally misleading.

    Neither very encouraging of course. Stupid and lazy, or mendacious. 'Tis the season?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,131
    Roger said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Anorak said:

    Nick has lots of fans on here because he minds his p's and q's, but i'm afraid i'm not one of them.

    He's certainly intelligent but there's something highly disingenuous about the man, and he uses his politeness and false sincerity as a weapon.

    I can't think of a single reason that you'd choose to write that that doesn't paint you as a very unpleasant person.

    Just unnecessary.
    Dr Palmer, having been democratically elected, voted to give away powers to the EU and thus put them beyond direct democratic control, despite having been elected on a manifesto which promised a public vote first.

    Frankly, Casino is being generous.
    Thanks, RoyalBlue.

    What I find unpleasant is going from toadying Blairite careerist, and pro-Iraq war advocate, to out-and-proud Corbynite eurocommunist, without missing a step, at all stages proclaiming to be entirely sincere, and consistently playing down any significance of the argument either which way in the hope of winning over as many to it as possible, without actually being sincere. I find it manipulative and dishonest. And the "politeness" doesn't make up for that.

    I can't respect someone like that. I'd far rather have someone who cut the crap and occasionally swore at me, but who I knew was the real deal.

    That's why I (genuinely) really like Labour posters like Jonathan, BJO and Southam, but I can't stand Nick Palmer.
    I just picked up this from a previous thread. If any of us Remainers wondered whether we were being a little harsh on the motivation and personality of some Leavers the tag team of Royal Blue and Casino Royale are worth looking at. There are occasional unpleasant posts on here but the viscerality of these two posters whose hate oozes through their every word shows in glorious technicolour the Faragian ugliness that we as a country are now facing
    Pax vobiscum Roger!
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,642

    Mind you, it seems to have upset all the right people.....

    Absolutely. Honestly I care very little what colour my passport is but for this reason I'll be renewing in 2019 rather than 2023.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,606
    CD13 said:

    On a philosophical note, I've always liked the Tower of Babel story. Warning man not to get too uppity and assume he knows so much.

    We know a little bit about some of the 5% of the universe we vaguely understand works. We may eventually understand what Dark Energy and Dark Matter do. The why is a different question.

    I thought the Babel story was we wanted to know more, by reaching heaven, implicitly admitting we don't know enough, and tried to do it by all working together, so God made it so we couldn't communicate with each other as easily in order to keep us down.

    I kid though. Peace and enlightenment to all people this holiday season and beyond, I hope.
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,642

    Lovely seasonal thread.....Mr Corbyn will not be PM by Christmas 2018, 2019, 2020 or 2021. 2022 remains a possibility....

    FPT those gleefully predicting longer EU immigration queues for British passport (of any colour) holders post Brexit seem unaware that that can cut both ways. Longer queues in the EU could mean shorter queues in the U.K....

    The advantage of having two passports - I can use whichever gets me through the shortest queue. Having said that, now that we are busy chanting "Foreigners! Foreigners! Foreigners! Out! Out! Out!", perhaps the EU queue at the UK Border will be so short that it might be quicker to use my EU passport to get back in to the UK ;) ;)
    I think there's a lesson here about starting with a conclusion you want to be true.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 9,439
    edited December 2017
    Charles said:

    You clipped from your original post the but I had issue with! (The focus on teaching rather than the spiritual aspects)

    I'm not convinced he was from Nazareth (it was a tiny village which few would have known) - more likely the medival monks mistranslated "Jesus the Nazarene" as "Jesus of Nazareth"

    But yes his message was far more revolutionary than anything of this world

    The problem with that view is that if we accept is a miscopying we then have to ask how it could be miscopied to such a small and insignificant place? That presupposes the scribes (note plural, as there appear to be at least two independent sources for the life of Jesus) in question actually knew Nazareth existed and were thinking about them while reading 'Nazarene.' Can you see why this seems isn't terribly convincing?

    I've come across people on both sides who argue this - one, a real crank called Steven Avery who is a Christian and claims to be married to a Galilean who says because there are no hills in Nazareth and the Bible says there are hills Jesus must have been born elsewhere (he picks an even more obscure site about ten miles to the north). When I asked him what I walked up to the Maronite Church if there are no hills he went ballistic. When I further asked him if, as he claimed, there were no cliffs what I was standing on when I took my panoramic shot of Nazareth he got madder still.

    Then of course you have the really cranky fringe on the other side, in the long discredited but still oddly popular Jesus Myth coterie, who claim Jesus never existed so he couldn't have come from Nazareth. One (René Salm, a part-time professional musician and full-time untrained polemicist) even wrote a series of articles trying to prove Nazareth never existed as well - unfortunately for him that meant taking on the large and well-attested archaeological record of a small village in the period. In particular his spat with Ken Dark of Reading University didn't end well for him, although the moment when a man with Grade 8 piano who has never worked on an archaeological dig in his life criticised a Professor of Archaeology for not being qualified to excavate in Israel because his previous digs were in Greece and Turkey ranks as one of the great comedy moments of modern scholarship.

    To sum up, there is no reason to assume Jesus did not come from Nazareth, and the sheer unlikelihood of it being put in as an error given its size and insignificance militate against other explanations.

    Hope that is of interest.
  • Mr. kle4, I thought it was about power rather than knowledge. Must admit I haven't actually read that story, but we did eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, and God cast us from Eden (well, in the Bible's version of events) when he feared we'd eat of the fruit of the tree of immortality and exceed him.

    God's to blame. It's not our fault the daft sod let a serpent into his garden.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,828
    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Anorak said:

    Nick has lots of fans on here because he minds his p's and q's, but i'm afraid i'm not one of them.

    He's certainly intelligent but there's something highly disingenuous about the man, and he uses his politeness and false sincerity as a weapon.

    I can't think of a single reason that you'd choose to write that that doesn't paint you as a very unpleasant person.

    Just unnecessary.
    Dr Palmer, having been democratically elected, voted to give away powers to the EU and thus put them beyond direct democratic control, despite having been elected on a manifesto which promised a public vote first.

    Frankly, Casino is being generous.
    Thanks, RoyalBlue.

    What I find unpleasant is going from toadying Blairite careerist, and pro-Iraq war advocate, to out-and-proud Corbynite eurocommunist, without missing a step, at all stages proclaiming to be entirely sincere, and consistently playing down any significance of the argument either which way in the hope of winning over as many to it as possible, without actually being sincere. I find it manipulative and dishonest. And the "politeness" doesn't make up for that.

    I can't respect someone like that. I'd far rather have someone who cut the crap and occasionally swore at me, but who I knew was the real deal.

    That's why I (genuinely) really like Labour posters like Jonathan, BJO and Southam, but I can't stand Nick Palmer.
    I just picked up this from a previous thread. If any of us Remainers wondered whether we were being a little harsh on the motivation and personality of some Leavers the tag team of Royal Blue and Casino Royale are worth looking at. There are occasional unpleasant posts on here but the viscerality of these two posters whose hate oozes through their every word shows in glorious technicolour the Faragian ugliness that we as a country are now facing
    Pax vobiscum Roger!
    ...and to you! Who can forget the school motto
  • Roger said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Anorak said:

    Nick has lots of fans on here because he minds his p's and q's, but i'm afraid i'm not one of them.

    He's certainly intelligent but there's something highly disingenuous about the man, and he uses his politeness and false sincerity as a weapon.

    I can't think of a single reason that you'd choose to write that that doesn't paint you as a very unpleasant person.

    Just unnecessary.
    Dr Palmer, having been democratically elected, voted to give away powers to the EU and thus put them beyond direct democratic control, despite having been elected on a manifesto which promised a public vote first.

    Frankly, Casino is being generous.
    Thanks, RoyalBlue.

    What I find unpleasant is going from toadying Blairite careerist, and pro-Iraq war advocate, to out-and-proud Corbynite eurocommunist, without missing a step, at all stages proclaiming to be entirely sincere, and consistently playing down any significance of the argument either which way in the hope of winning over as many to it as possible, without actually being sincere. I find it manipulative and dishonest. And the "politeness" doesn't make up for that.

    I can't respect someone like that. I'd far rather have someone who cut the crap and occasionally swore at me, but who I knew was the real deal.

    That's why I (genuinely) really like Labour posters like Jonathan, BJO and Southam, but I can't stand Nick Palmer.
    the viscerality of these two posters whose hate oozes through their every word shows in glorious technicolour the Faragian ugliness that we as a country are now facing
    You don't think extrapolating from two posters to many repeats the crime you accuse them of?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,606

    Mr. kle4, I thought it was about power rather than knowledge. Must admit I haven't actually read that story, but we did eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, and God cast us from Eden (well, in the Bible's version of events) when he feared we'd eat of the fruit of the tree of immortality and exceed him.

    God's to blame. It's not our fault the daft sod let a serpent into his garden.

    Like you I've not actually read it myself, hence I try only to tease than criticise. I've always liked the Crowley and Aziraphale ponderings on the subject in Good Omens, of two immortal beings who were actually there but still are uncertain of what the ineffable plan is.

    I do occasionally leaf through my King James - poetic.
  • Mr. kle4, my favourite religious theory is the theodicy* of Irenaeus, which asserts that God will let everyone into Heaven.

    *an attempt to reconcile God's omnibenevolence with sending billions of people to Hell.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,131
    Roger said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Anorak said:

    Nick has lots of fans on here because he minds his p's and q's, but i'm afraid i'm not one of them.

    He's certainly intelligent but there's something highly disingenuous about the man, and he uses his politeness and false sincerity as a weapon.

    I can't think of a single reason that you'd choose to write that that doesn't paint you as a very unpleasant person.

    Just unnecessary.
    Dr Palmer, having been democratically elected, voted to give away powers to the EU and thus put them beyond direct democratic control, despite having been elected on a manifesto which promised a public vote first.

    Frankly, Casino is being generous.
    Thanks, RoyalBlue.

    What I find unpleasant is going from toadying Blairite careerist, and pro-Iraq war advocate, to out-and-proud Corbynite eurocommunist, without missing a step, at all stages proclaiming to be entirely sincere, and consistently playing down any significance of the argument either which way in the hope of winning over as many to it as possible, without actually being sincere. I find it manipulative and dishonest. And the "politeness" doesn't make up for that.

    I can't respect someone like that. I'd far rather have someone who cut the crap and occasionally swore at me, but who I knew was the real deal.

    That's why I (genuinely) really like Labour posters like Jonathan, BJO and Southam, but I can't stand Nick Palmer.
    I just picked up this from a previous thread. If any of us Remainers wondered whether we were being a little harsh on the motivation and personality of some Leavers the tag team of Royal Blue and Casino Royale are worth looking at. There are occasional unpleasant posts on here but the viscerality of these two posters whose hate oozes through their every word shows in glorious technicolour the Faragian ugliness that we as a country are now facing
    Pax vobiscum Roger!
    ...and to you! Who can forget the school motto
    Floreat Etona? Or Clarior Ex Obscura?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,606

    Mr. kle4, my favourite religious theory is the theodicy* of Irenaeus, which asserts that God will let everyone into Heaven.

    *an attempt to reconcile God's omnibenevolence with sending billions of people to Hell.

    Boy, that would be awkward.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,688
    “it is all too easy to start with a conclusion you want to be true and then rationalise the supporting analysis and logic; for the wish to be father to the thought.”

    That could apply to many in the financial world.

    Interesting header and discussion. Many thanks.
  • Charles said:

    Roger said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Anorak said:

    Nick has lots of fans on here because he minds his p's and q's, but i'm afraid i'm not one of them.

    He's certainly intelligent but there's something highly disingenuous about the man, and he uses his politeness and false sincerity as a weapon.

    I can't think of a single reason that you'd choose to write that that doesn't paint you as a very unpleasant person.

    Just unnecessary.
    Dr Palmer, having been democratically elected, voted to give away powers to the EU and thus put them beyond direct democratic control, despite having been elected on a manifesto which promised a public vote first.

    Frankly, Casino is being generous.
    Thanks, RoyalBlue.

    What I find unpleasant is going from toadying Blairite careerist, and pro-Iraq war advocate, to out-and-proud Corbynite eurocommunist, without missing a step, at all stages proclaiming to be entirely sincere, and consistently playing down any significance of the argument either which way in the hope of winning over as many to it as possible, without actually being sincere. I find it manipulative and dishonest. And the "politeness" doesn't make up for that.

    I can't respect someone like that. I'd far rather have someone who cut the crap and occasionally swore at me, but who I knew was the real deal.

    That's why I (genuinely) really like Labour posters like Jonathan, BJO and Southam, but I can't stand Nick Palmer.
    I just picked up this from a previous thread. If any of us Remainers wondered whether we were being a little harsh on the motivation and personality of some Leavers the tag team of Royal Blue and Casino Royale are worth looking at. There are occasional unpleasant posts on here but the viscerality of these two posters whose hate oozes through their every word shows in glorious technicolour the Faragian ugliness that we as a country are now facing
    Pax vobiscum Roger!
    ...and to you! Who can forget the school motto
    Floreat Etona? Or Clarior Ex Obscura?
    Honneur aulx dignes
  • Because Jeremy Corbyn is Brexit's Bezzy Mate - and he likes the symbolism?
    David Lammy showing his usual grasp of the facts:

    I’ve no idea why he was so useless on mastermind!
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,796

    Because Jeremy Corbyn is Brexit's Bezzy Mate - and he likes the symbolism?
    David Lammy showing his usual grasp of the facts:

    LOL, he does hit the nail on the head, the only success the useless Tory Brexiteers have managed is to rally the xenophobes with a Blue passport, how pathetic can it get.
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,268
    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Anorak said:

    Nick has lots of fans on here because he minds his p's and q's, but i'm afraid i'm not one of them.

    He's certainly intelligent but there's something highly disingenuous about the man, and he uses his politeness and false sincerity as a weapon.

    I can't think of a single reason that you'd choose to write that that doesn't paint you as a very unpleasant person.

    Just unnecessary.
    Dr Palmer, having been democratically elected, voted to give away powers to the EU and thus put them beyond direct democratic control, despite having been elected on a manifesto which promised a public vote first.

    Frankly, Casino is being generous.
    Thanks, RoyalBlue.

    What I find unpleasant is going from toadying Blairite careerist, and pro-Iraq war advocate, to out-and-proud Corbynite eurocommunist, without missing a step, at all stages proclaiming to be entirely sincere, and consistently playing down any significance of the argument either which way in the hope of winning over as many to it as possible, without actually being sincere. I find it manipulative and dishonest. And the "politeness" doesn't make up for that.

    I can't respect someone like that. I'd far rather have someone who cut the crap and occasionally swore at me, but who I knew was the real deal.

    That's why I (genuinely) really like Labour posters like Jonathan, BJO and Southam, but I can't stand Nick Palmer.
    I just picked up this from a previous thread. If any of us Remainers wondered whether we were being a little harsh on the motivation and personality of some Leavers the tag team of Royal Blue and Casino Royale are worth looking at. There are occasional unpleasant posts on here but the viscerality of these two posters whose hate oozes through their every word shows in glorious technicolour the Faragian ugliness that we as a country are now facing
    Pax vobiscum Roger!
    ...and to you! Who can forget the school motto
    Floreat Etona? Or Clarior Ex Obscura?
    Molire Molendo
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 5,229
    Roger said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Anorak said:

    Nick has lots of fans on here because he minds his p's and q's, but i'm afraid i'm not one of them.

    He's certainly intelligent but there's something highly disingenuous about the man, and he uses his politeness and false sincerity as a weapon.

    I can't think of a single reason that you'd choose to write that that doesn't paint you as a very unpleasant person.

    Just unnecessary.
    Dr Palmer, having been democratically elected, voted to give away powers to the EU and thus put them beyond direct democratic control, despite having been elected on a manifesto which promised a public vote first.

    Frankly, Casino is being generous.
    Thanks, RoyalBlue.

    What I find unpleasant is going from toadying Blairite careerist, and pro-Iraq war advocate, to out-and-proud Corbynite eurocommunist, without missing a step, at all stages proclaiming to be entirely sincere, and consistently playing down any significance of the argument either which way in the hope of winning over as many to it as possible, without actually being sincere. I find it manipulative and dishonest. And the "politeness" doesn't make up for that.

    I can't respect someone like that. I'd far rather have someone who cut the crap and occasionally swore at me, but who I knew was the real deal.

    That's why I (genuinely) really like Labour posters like Jonathan, BJO and Southam, but I can't stand Nick Palmer.
    I just picked up this from a previous thread. If any of us Remainers wondered whether we were being a little harsh on the motivation and personality of some Leavers the tag team of Royal Blue and Casino Royale are worth looking at. There are occasional unpleasant posts on here but the viscerality of these two posters whose hate oozes through their every word shows in glorious technicolour the Faragian ugliness that we as a country are now facing
    Nonsense on stilts, Roger, people had spats with one another long before Farage was a twinkle in his jackbooted father's eye.

    Joyeux Noel
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 9,620

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Anorak said:

    Nick has lots of fans on here because he minds his p's and q's, but i'm afraid i'm not one of them.

    He's certainly intelligent but there's something highly disingenuous about the man, and he uses his politeness and false sincerity as a weapon.

    I can't think of a single reason that you'd choose to write that that doesn't paint you as a very unpleasant person.

    Just unnecessary.
    Dr Palmer, having been democratically elected, voted to give away powers to the EU and thus put them beyond direct democratic control, despite having been elected on a manifesto which promised a public vote first.

    Frankly, Casino is being generous.
    Thanks, RoyalBlue.

    What I find unpleasant is going from toadying Blairite careerist, and pro-Iraq war advocate, to out-and-proud Corbynite eurocommunist, without missing a step, at all stages proclaiming to be entirely sincere, and consistently playing down any significance of the argument either which way in the hope of winning over as many to it as possible, without actually being sincere. I find it manipulative and dishonest. And the "politeness" doesn't make up for that.

    I can't respect someone like that. I'd far rather have someone who cut the crap and occasionally swore at me, but who I knew was the real deal.

    That's why I (genuinely) really like Labour posters like Jonathan, BJO and Southam, but I can't stand Nick Palmer.
    I just picked up this from a previous thread. If any of us Remainers wondered whether we were being a little harsh on the motivation and personality of some Leavers the tag team of Royal Blue and Casino Royale are worth looking at. There are occasional unpleasant posts on here but the viscerality of these two posters whose hate oozes through their every word shows in glorious technicolour the Faragian ugliness that we as a country are now facing
    Pax vobiscum Roger!
    ...and to you! Who can forget the school motto
    Floreat Etona? Or Clarior Ex Obscura?
    Molire Molendo
    Presumably that means I was completely wrong 're DG JJ
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,828

    Roger said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Anorak said:

    Nick has lots of fans on here because he minds his p's and q's, but i'm afraid i'm not one of them.

    He's certainly intelligent but there's something highly disingenuous about the man, and he uses his politeness and false sincerity as a weapon.

    I can't think of a single reason that you'd choose to write that that doesn't paint you as a very unpleasant person.

    Just unnecessary.
    Dr Palmer, having been democratically elected, voted to give away powers to the EU and thus put them beyond direct democratic control, despite having been elected on a manifesto which promised a public vote first.

    Frankly, Casino is being generous.
    Thanks, RoyalBlue.

    What I find unpleasant is going from toadying Blairite careerist, and pro-Iraq war advocate, to out-and-proud Corbynite eurocommunist, without missing a step, at all stages proclaiming to be entirely sincere, and consistently playing down any significance of the argument either which way in the hope of winning over as many to it as possible, without actually being sincere. I find it manipulative and dishonest. And the "politeness" doesn't make up for that.

    I can't respect someone like that. I'd far rather have someone who cut the crap and occasionally swore at me, but who I knew was the real deal.

    That's why I (genuinely) really like Labour posters like Jonathan, BJO and Southam, but I can't stand Nick Palmer.
    the viscerality of these two posters whose hate oozes through their every word shows in glorious technicolour the Faragian ugliness that we as a country are now facing
    You don't think extrapolating from two posters to many repeats the crime you accuse them of?
    You don't need a lot of them....but all this talk of patriotism and traitors is something that I find very spooky. It feels uncomfortably American
  • Mr. Owls, the cost of producing the passports is £500m and would be regardless of colour. Changing the colour costs nothing more.

    Lammy's either deliberately misleading people or immensely stupid. His point is invalid.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 9,620

    Mr. Owls, the cost of producing the passports is £500m and would be regardless of colour. Changing the colour costs nothing more.

    Lammy's either deliberately misleading people or immensely stupid. His point is invalid.

    I know.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,796

    .Only when in an EU country and referring to Brits :D

    Bit nippy up there on the moral high ground?
    Yes you must have frostbite by now
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,606
    malcolmg said:

    Because Jeremy Corbyn is Brexit's Bezzy Mate - and he likes the symbolism?
    David Lammy showing his usual grasp of the facts:

    LOL, he does hit the nail on the head, the only success the useless Tory Brexiteers have managed is to rally the xenophobes with a Blue passport, how pathetic can it get.
    He really doesn't malc. The passport thing is silly, but he is implying the change will cost that much, which it won't since that's simply the cost of the contract which was up for renewal anyway. So his using it as en example of being a laughing stock falls flat on its face and undermines anything else he has to say.

    If I said Corbyn would be a bad pm in my opinion, I might be right, but if I said it was because he would spend billions trying to clone Lenin to ask him for advice, that would rather undermine my earlier point, because I would be talking bollocks.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,606
    malcolmg said:

    .Only when in an EU country and referring to Brits :D

    Bit nippy up there on the moral high ground?
    Yes you must have frostbite by now
    You get used to it - the key is wearing attire made of the cosiest material possible: smugness, it always keeps me warm.
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,268

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Anorak said:

    Nick has lots of fans on here because he minds his p's and q's, but i'm afraid i'm not one of them.

    He's certainly intelligent but there's something highly disingenuous about the man, and he uses his politeness and false sincerity as a weapon.

    I can't think of a single reason that you'd choose to write that that doesn't paint you as a very unpleasant person.

    Just unnecessary.
    Dr Palmer, having been democratically elected, voted to give away powers to the EU and thus put them beyond direct democratic control, despite having been elected on a manifesto which promised a public vote first.

    Frankly, Casino is being generous.
    Thanks, RoyalBlue.

    What I find unpleasant is going from toadying Blairite careerist, and pro-Iraq war advocate, to out-and-proud Corbynite eurocommunist, without missing a step, at all stages proclaiming to be entirely sincere, and consistently playing down any significance of the argument either which way in the hope of winning over as many to it as possible, without actually being sincere. I find it manipulative and dishonest. And the "politeness" doesn't make up for that.

    I can't respect someone like that. I'd far rather have someone who cut the crap and occasionally swore at me, but who I knew was the real deal.

    That's why I (genuinely) really like Labour posters like Jonathan, BJO and Southam, but I can't stand Nick Palmer.
    I just picked up this from a previous thread. If any of us Remainers wondered whether we were being a little harsh on the motivation and personality of some Leavers the tag team of Royal Blue and Casino Royale are worth looking at. There are occasional unpleasant posts on here but the viscerality of these two posters whose hate oozes through their every word shows in glorious technicolour the Faragian ugliness that we as a country are now facing
    Pax vobiscum Roger!
    ...and to you! Who can forget the school motto
    Floreat Etona? Or Clarior Ex Obscura?
    Molire Molendo
    Presumably that means I was completely wrong 're DG JJ
    All I've said about DG is that it was right he was sacked for lying. My opinions on Quick and Lewis are proving popular in all the right places; I reported them to the ICO a week before the Met did. I've been asked not to discuss it though, so please don't ask me about it.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 10,211
    edited December 2017
    Another great piece of writing by David - that last sentence in particular has an eerie resonance. I hope he is deploying his talents in other fields too.

    I'm not sure that the specific political example is the best one - an easier explanation of Corbyn's comment is that if you're asked "Will you win soon?" then politicians just can't reply "Nah, probably not." But it's certainly true of most of us that we work out (or just have a gut feeling) what we want to happen and then often interpret events as showing that we're right or, if we're optimists, as showing that we're getting there.

    I'm not especially moderate in my opinions these days (too much wrong in our world to opt for tinkering), but one point that centrists get right is that we all need to be aware that our assumptions MAY be wrong, and we therefore shouldn't do anything that would be catastrophic if they were.
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,214
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Anorak said:

    Nick has lots of fans on here because he minds his p's and q's, but i'm afraid i'm not one of them.

    He's certainly intelligent but there's something highly disingenuous about the man, and he uses his politeness and false sincerity as a weapon.

    I can't think of a single reason that you'd choose to write that that doesn't paint you as a very unpleasant person.

    Just unnecessary.
    Dr Palmer, having been democratically elected, voted to give away powers to the EU and thus put them beyond direct democratic control, despite having been elected on a manifesto which promised a public vote first.

    Frankly, Casino is being generous.
    Thanks, RoyalBlue.

    What I find unpleasant is going from toadying Blairite careerist, and pro-Iraq war advocate, to out-and-proud Corbynite eurocommunist, without missing a step, at all stages proclaiming to be entirely sincere, and consistently playing down any significance of the argument either which way in the hope of winning over as many to it as possible, without actually being sincere. I find it manipulative and dishonest. And the "politeness" doesn't make up for that.

    I can't respect someone like that. I'd far rather have someone who cut the crap and occasionally swore at me, but who I knew was the real deal.

    That's why I (genuinely) really like Labour posters like Jonathan, BJO and Southam, but I can't stand Nick Palmer.
    the viscerality of these two posters whose hate oozes through their every word shows in glorious technicolour the Faragian ugliness that we as a country are now facing
    You don't think extrapolating from two posters to many repeats the crime you accuse them of?
    You don't need a lot of them....but all this talk of patriotism and traitors is something that I find very spooky. It feels uncomfortably American
    Perhaps you should persuade the more idiotic Remainers to stop doing it then.
  • Mr. G, what's the SNP/separatist position on currency? Still the pound?
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 2,639
    I'm sure someone already pointed this out, but perhaps Rajoy should have consulted with Theresa May before calling a snap election in 2017....
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,828
    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Anorak said:

    Nick has lots of fans on here because he minds his p's and q's, but i'm afraid i'm not one of them.

    He's certainly intelligent but there's something highly disingenuous about the man, and he uses his politeness and false sincerity as a weapon.

    I can't think of a single reason that you'd choose to write that that doesn't paint you as a very unpleasant person.

    Just unnecessary.
    Dr Palmer, having been democratically elected, voted to give away powers to the EU and thus put them beyond direct democratic control, despite having been elected on a manifesto which promised a public vote first.

    Frankly, Casino is being generous.
    Thanks, RoyalBlue.

    What I find unpleasant is going from toadying Blairite careerist, and pro-Iraq war advocate, to out-and-proud Corbynite eurocommunist, without missing a step, at all stages proclaiming to be entirely sincere, and consistently playing down any significance of the argument either which way in the hope of winning over as many to it as possible, without actually being sincere. I find it manipulative and dishonest. And the "politeness" doesn't make up for that.

    I can't respect someone like that. I'd far rather have someone who cut the crap and occasionally swore at me, but who I knew was the real deal.

    That's why I (genuinely) really like Labour posters like Jonathan, BJO and Southam, but I can't stand Nick Palmer.
    I just picked up this from a previous thread. If any of us Remainers wondered whether we were being a little harsh on the motivation and personality of some Leavers the tag team of Royal Blue and Casino Royale are worth looking at. There are occasional unpleasant posts on here but the viscerality of these two posters whose hate oozes through their every word shows in glorious technicolour the Faragian ugliness that we as a country are now facing
    Pax vobiscum Roger!
    ...and to you! Who can forget the school motto
    Floreat Etona? Or Clarior Ex Obscura?
    Mine was 'Once you've seen one you've seen them both'
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,424

    Mr. Owls, the cost of producing the passports is £500m and would be regardless of colour. Changing the colour costs nothing more.

    Lammy's either deliberately misleading people or immensely stupid. His point is invalid.

    I think we need to give him the benefit of the doubt and just assume he is immensely stupid.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 9,620


    All I've said about DG is that it was right he was sacked for lying.

    That's not all you said about DG though is it.


    You said he was being truthful and should sue for defamation or some rubbish.

  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,268
    Roger said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Anorak said:

    Nick has lots of fans on here because he minds his p's and q's, but i'm afraid i'm not one of them.

    He's certainly intelligent but there's something highly disingenuous about the man, and he uses his politeness and false sincerity as a weapon.

    I can't think of a single reason that you'd choose to write that that doesn't paint you as a very unpleasant person.

    Just unnecessary.
    Dr Palmer, having been democratically elected, voted to give away powers to the EU and thus put them beyond direct democratic control, despite having been elected on a manifesto which promised a public vote first.

    Frankly, Casino is being generous.
    Thanks, RoyalBlue.

    What I find unpleasant is going from toadying Blairite careerist, and pro-Iraq war advocate, to out-and-proud Corbynite eurocommunist, without missing a step, at all stages proclaiming to be entirely sincere, and consistently playing down any significance of the argument either which way in the hope of winning over as many to it as possible, without actually being sincere. I find it manipulative and dishonest. And the "politeness" doesn't make up for that.

    I can't respect someone like that. I'd far rather have someone who cut the crap and occasionally swore at me, but who I knew was the real deal.

    That's why I (genuinely) really like Labour posters like Jonathan, BJO and Southam, but I can't stand Nick Palmer.
    I just picked up this from a previous thread. If any of us Remainers wondered whether we were being a little harsh on the motivation and personality of some Leavers the tag team of Royal Blue and Casino Royale are worth looking at. There are occasional unpleasant posts on here but the viscerality of these two posters whose hate oozes through their every word shows in glorious technicolour the Faragian ugliness that we as a country are now facing
    Pax vobiscum Roger!
    ...and to you! Who can forget the school motto
    Floreat Etona? Or Clarior Ex Obscura?
    Mine was 'Once you've seen one you've seen them both'
    Thought you were Millfield? In which case it's Molire Molendo (to succeed by grinding!)
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 3,974
    Essexit said:

    Lovely seasonal thread.....Mr Corbyn will not be PM by Christmas 2018, 2019, 2020 or 2021. 2022 remains a possibility....

    FPT those gleefully predicting longer EU immigration queues for British passport (of any colour) holders post Brexit seem unaware that that can cut both ways. Longer queues in the EU could mean shorter queues in the U.K....

    The advantage of having two passports - I can use whichever gets me through the shortest queue. Having said that, now that we are busy chanting "Foreigners! Foreigners! Foreigners! Out! Out! Out!", perhaps the EU queue at the UK Border will be so short that it might be quicker to use my EU passport to get back in to the UK ;) ;)
    I think there's a lesson here about starting with a conclusion you want to be true.
    You should write a thread header based on that premise :D
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,268



    All I've said about DG is that it was right he was sacked for lying.

    That's not all you said about DG though is it.


    You said he was being truthful and should sue for defamation or some rubbish.

    You don't remember my posts well at all.
  • Miss Vance, the real problems with Santa are far worse.

    For a start, he's the world's most prolific vandal. How many homes has he broken into? Billions.

    Then there are his personal vices. Asking kids to sit on his knee and telling them they'll get special presents if he thinks they're nice rather than naughty.

    Last, but not least, his employment policies. Ruthlessly enslaving differently-sized people, deriding them as 'elves', forcing them to work year-round in his frigid sweatshop to produce presents with which to bribe small children.

    Truly, a reprehensible man.
  • malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Because Jeremy Corbyn is Brexit's Bezzy Mate - and he likes the symbolism?
    David Lammy showing his usual grasp of the facts:

    LOL, he does hit the nail on the head, the only success the useless Tory Brexiteers have managed is to rally the xenophobes with a Blue passport, how pathetic can it get.
    Unionists crapping it, have to try their usual, slander on BPC members used to be red card on here. Given poll was by Panel Base and at 49% with MOE it is a very good result and shows independence is still highly likely in Scotland. Insecure xenophobic unionists who are scared of that happening trying to claim Panelbase would rig a poll is beyond the pale but I am not surprised that you support that reasoning.
    For the avoidance of doubt, this can't be taken to indicate a recent increase in support for independence, because the poll asks a non-conventional and hypothetical question, and indeed offers a choice between two non-conventional and hypothetical answers. It's not directly comparable with more standard independence polls

    http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2017/12/momentous-panelbase-poll-suggests.html
  • Mr. G, what's the SNP/separatist position on currency? Still the pound?


    No its 'My nationalism is better than your nationalism. Details to follow.'
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 2,650

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Anorak said:

    Nick has lots of fans on here because he minds his p's and q's, but i'm afraid i'm not one of them.

    He's certainly intelligent but there's something highly disingenuous about the man, and he uses his politeness and false sincerity as a weapon.

    I can't think of a single reason that you'd choose to write that that doesn't paint you as a very unpleasant person.

    Just unnecessary.
    Dr Palmer, having been democratically elected, voted to give away powers to the EU and thus put them beyond direct democratic control, despite having been elected on a manifesto which promised a public vote first.

    Frankly, Casino is being generous.
    Thanks, RoyalBlue.

    What I find unpleasant is going from toadying Blairite careerist, and pro-Iraq war advocate, to out-and-proud Corbynite eurocommunist, without missing a step, at all stages proclaiming to be entirely sincere, and consistently playing down any significance of the argument either which way in the hope of winning over as many to it as possible, without actually being sincere. I find it manipulative and dishonest. And the "politeness" doesn't make up for that.

    I can't respect someone like that. I'd far rather have someone who cut the crap and occasionally swore at me, but who I knew was the real deal.

    That's why I (genuinely) really like Labour posters like Jonathan, BJO and Southam, but I can't stand Nick Palmer.
    I just picked up this from a previous thread. If any of us Remainers wondered whether we were being a little harsh on the motivation and personality of some Leavers the tag team of Royal Blue and Casino Royale are worth looking at. There are occasional unpleasant posts on here but the viscerality of these two posters whose hate oozes through their every word shows in glorious technicolour the Faragian ugliness that we as a country are now facing
    Pax vobiscum Roger!
    ...and to you! Who can forget the school motto
    Floreat Etona? Or Clarior Ex Obscura?
    Molire Molendo
    Presumably that means I was completely wrong 're DG JJ
    All I've said about DG is that it was right he was sacked for lying. My opinions on Quick and Lewis are proving popular in all the right places; I reported them to the ICO a week before the Met did. I've been asked not to discuss it though, so please don't ask me about it.
    He didn't - but you have! (Just saying)
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 17,778

    Mr. G, what's the SNP/separatist position on currency? Still the pound?

    No its 'My nationalism is better than your nationalism. Details to follow.'
    Isn’t that the Brexit plan?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,828

    Roger said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Anorak said:

    Nick has lots of fans on here because he minds his p's and q's, but i'm afraid i'm not one of them.

    He's certainly intelligent but there's something highly disingenuous about the man, and he uses his politeness and false sincerity as a weapon.

    I can't think of a single reason that you'd choose to write that that doesn't paint you as a very unpleasant person.

    Just unnecessary.
    Dr Palmer, having been democratically elected, voted to give away powers to the EU and thus put them beyond direct democratic control, despite having been elected on a manifesto which promised a public vote first.

    Frankly, Casino is being generous.
    Thanks, RoyalBlue.

    What I find unpleasant is going from toadying Blairite careerist, and pro-Iraq war advocate, to out-and-proud Corbynite eurocommunist, without missing a step, at all stages proclaiming to be entirely sincere, and consistently playing down any significance of the argument either which way in the hope of winning over as many to it as possible, without actually being sincere. I find it manipulative and dishonest. And the "politeness" doesn't make up for that.

    I can't respect someone like that. I'd far rather have someone who cut the crap and occasionally swore at me, but who I knew was the real deal.

    That's why I (genuinely) really like Labour posters like Jonathan, BJO and Southam, but I can't stand Nick Palmer.
    I just picked up this from a previous thread. If any of us Remainers wondered whether we were being a little harsh on the motivation and personality of some Leavers the tag team of Royal Blue and Casino Royale are worth looking at. There are occasional unpleasant posts on here but the viscerality of these two posters whose hate oozes through their every word shows in glorious technicolour the Faragian ugliness that we as a country are now facing
    Pax vobiscum Roger!
    ...and to you! Who can forget the school motto
    Floreat Etona? Or Clarior Ex Obscura?
    Mine was 'Once you've seen one you've seen them both'
    Thought you were Millfield? In which case it's Molire Molendo (to succeed by grinding!)
    RJOM's sense of humour...were you there?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,828
    edited December 2017

    Roger said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Anorak said:

    Nick has lots of fans on here because he minds his p's and q's, but i'm afraid i'm not one of them.

    He's certainly intelligent but there's something highly disingenuous about the man, and he uses his politeness and false sincerity as a weapon.

    I can't think of a single reason that you'd choose to write that that doesn't paint you as a very unpleasant person.

    Just unnecessary.
    Dr Palmer, having been democratically elected, voted to give away powers to the EU and thus put them beyond direct democratic control, despite having been elected on a manifesto which promised a public vote first.

    Frankly, Casino is being generous.
    Thanks, RoyalBlue.

    What I find unpleasant is going from toadying Blairite careerist, and pro-Iraq war advocate, to out-and-proud Corbynite eurocommunist, without missing a step, at all stages proclaiming to be entirely sincere, and consistently playing down any significance of the argument either which way in the hope of winning over as many to it as possible, without actually being sincere. I find it manipulative and dishonest. And the "politeness" doesn't make up for that.

    I can't respect someone like that. I'd far rather have someone who cut the crap and occasionally swore at me, but who I knew was the real deal.

    That's why I (genuinely) really like Labour posters like Jonathan, BJO and Southam, but I can't stand Nick Palmer.
    I just picked up this from a previous thread. If any of us Remainers wondered whether we were being a little harsh on the motivation and personality of some Leavers the tag team of Royal Blue and Casino Royale are worth looking at. There are occasional unpleasant posts on here but the viscerality of these two posters whose hate oozes through their every word shows in glorious technicolour the Faragian ugliness that we as a country are now facing
    Pax vobiscum Roger!
    ...and to you! Who can forget the school motto
    Floreat Etona? Or Clarior Ex Obscura?
    Mine was 'Once you've seen one you've seen them both'
    Thought you were Millfield? In which case it's Molire Molendo (to succeed by grinding!)
    RJOM's sense of humour. Were you there?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,131
    Roger said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Anorak said:

    Nick has lots of fans on here because he minds his p's and q's, but i'm afraid i'm not one of them.

    He's certainly intelligent but there's something highly disingenuous about the man, and he uses his politeness and false sincerity as a weapon.

    I can't think of a single reason that you'd choose to write that that doesn't paint you as a very unpleasant person.

    Just unnecessary.
    Dr Palmer, having been democratically elected, voted to give away powers to the EU and thus put them beyond direct democratic control, despite having been elected on a manifesto which promised a public vote first.

    Frankly, Casino is being generous.
    Thanks, RoyalBlue.

    What I find unpleasant is going from toadying Blairite careerist, and pro-Iraq war advocate, to out-and-proud Corbynite eurocommunist, without missing a step, at all stages proclaiming to be entirely sincere, and consistently playing down any significance of the argument either which way in the hope of winning over as many to it as possible, without actually being sincere. I find it manipulative and dishonest. And the "politeness" doesn't make up for that.

    I can't respect someone like that. I'd far rather have someone who cut the crap and occasionally swore at me, but who I knew was the real deal.

    That's why I (genuinely) really like Labour posters like Jonathan, BJO and Southam, but I can't stand Nick Palmer.
    I just picked up this from a previous thread. If any of us Remainers wondered whether we were being a little harsh on the motivation and personality of some Leavers the tag team of Royal Blue and Casino Royale are worth looking at. There are occasional unpleasant posts on here but the viscerality of these two posters whose hate oozes through their every word shows in glorious technicolour the Faragian ugliness that we as a country are now facing
    Pax vobiscum Roger!
    ...and to you! Who can forget the school motto
    Floreat Etona? Or Clarior Ex Obscura?
    Mine was 'Once you've seen one you've seen them both'
    I grew up with the 1928 Prayer Book:

    "Lighten our darkness, we beseech the O Lord; and by thy great mercies defend us from the perils and dangers of this night; for the sake of your only Son, our Saviour"
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,131
    The story of Parliament abusing their authority in the case of the 1928 prayer book is amusing and depressing. Despite its name it wasn't made legal until 1966!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,131
    edited December 2017

    Miss Vance, the real problems with Santa are far worse.

    For a start, he's the world's most prolific vandal. How many homes has he broken into? Billions.

    Then there are his personal vices. Asking kids to sit on his knee and telling them they'll get special presents if he thinks they're nice rather than naughty.

    Last, but not least, his employment policies. Ruthlessly enslaving differently-sized people, deriding them as 'elves', forcing them to work year-round in his frigid sweatshop to produce presents with which to bribe small children.

    Truly, a reprehensible man.

    How long do you think a Middle Easterner would get away with concealing multiple packages in places where civilians gather today?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 9,640
    malcolmg said:

    Because Jeremy Corbyn is Brexit's Bezzy Mate - and he likes the symbolism?
    David Lammy showing his usual grasp of the facts:

    LOL, he does hit the nail on the head, the only success the useless Tory Brexiteers have managed is to rally the xenophobes with a Blue passport, how pathetic can it get.
    I suspect the phrase ".. at least you have got a blue passport" is one we are going to hear a lot of in coming years. And not in a good way.

    If the story ends with the Scots having red passports and the English blue ones, something has gone wrong somewhere, surely?
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 2,994
    Cyclefree said:

    “it is all too easy to start with a conclusion you want to be true and then rationalise the supporting analysis and logic; for the wish to be father to the thought.”

    That could apply to many in the financial world.

    Interesting header and discussion. Many thanks.

    Also to DG by many on here.https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/22/damian-green-case-former-police-officers-public-interest-brian-paddick
  • What else is she supposed to say:

    “I’m in it for the long term,” May said when asked if she will lead her party into the next general election, scheduled for 2022. “I’m here to do the job I believe needs to be done for the British people and that’s what I’m going to focus on.”

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/conservative-party/theresa-may/news/91664/theresa-may-eyes-2022-vote-after

    Anything else would set dozens of hares running......
  • Today is the last dry day I have before I get to work on the astonishing amount of high quality alcoholic beverages I have assembled for the Christmas period: beers from England, whisky from Scotland, wine from France, Spain, Italy and the US, port from Portugal, Baileys from Ireland ;-) And yesterday I purchased three Montecristo Number 2’s. I am all set.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 9,640
    The meerkats appear to have set fire to London Zoo.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 9,620



    All I've said about DG is that it was right he was sacked for lying.

    That's not all you said about DG though is it.


    You said he was being truthful and should sue for defamation or some rubbish.

    You don't remember my posts well at all.
    They are in the PB Archives. You said there was no Porn on his computer on 2 Dec 2017.

    Do you really want me to cut and paste them all?
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 2,994



    All I've said about DG is that it was right he was sacked for lying.

    That's not all you said about DG though is it.


    You said he was being truthful and should sue for defamation or some rubbish.

    You don't remember my posts well at all.
    I do.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 19,400
    Is science really that different? It seems to me that many of the great leaps forward came from inspiration or a theory in respect of which there was then a search for evidence to test it one way or the other. The theory of relativity being a good example. The human mind and its capacity for intuitive leaps is truly one of the great mysteries of our universe.

    The nativity always struck me as an ex post rationalisation. This man was the son of God, how could he have a normal birth? The royal blood thing seems somewhat overstated. He was of the house of David, as were about 10% of all Jews. Mary must have been too, especially as Jews are wise enough to establish blood lines through the mother. What is more important is the symbolism. Poverty and a complete lack of worldly power and trappings shows vividly that he later promises a very different kind of Kingdom.

    I agree with @foxinsoxuk that the sermon on the mount is the best and most important part of the New Testament but the skill and care used by the learned men who put the bible together was considerable. I find the idea that there were mistakes between Nazarene and Nazareth pretty unconvincing.

    Not completely clear about the betting angles on this though.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,606
    edited December 2017
    Yorkcity said:

    Cyclefree said:

    “it is all too easy to start with a conclusion you want to be true and then rationalise the supporting analysis and logic; for the wish to be father to the thought.”

    That could apply to many in the financial world.

    Interesting header and discussion. Many thanks.

    Also to DG by many on here.https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/22/damian-green-case-former-police-officers-public-interest-brian-paddick
    I've read it and disagree, nor is Paddicks Quote as firm as suggested (the direct quote being about unlikely a jury would unanimously find it not to be public interest). They shouldn't have held on to the information, end of, as they has left the service. The federations Quote is just stupid given the retention of police information.

    How many former police officers decide to keep hold of information they've been told not to, on how many people? How much of that information is fortunate enough to them be able to be leaked to the press as in the public interest?

    Should we now encourage all officers to retain information on all cases on their own moral judgement, since who knows what might be public interest later?

    Green misled, and he's, been sacked, fine. But the implications are frightening. Former police making moral judgements to keep info on the off chance it will be useful years later. How,many other people, significant or not, have these officers kept info on? What exactly were there plans if it never came up again?

    Merry Xmas to all
This discussion has been closed.