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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The big one: Cyclefree announces her Political Awards for 2017

SystemSystem Posts: 3,967
edited December 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The big one: Cyclefree announces her Political Awards for 2017

It is perhaps inevitable in a country with a government which thinks that the colour of its passport matters that the British Army should have spent money on trying to change its “Be the Best” motto. To what, one wonders? “Be Mediocre”, perhaps or “Best at Being Third-Rate”, maybe. Still, a workforce can only be regarded as sufficiently diverse if a significant proportion is unsuitable for the job.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Very good Ms Cyclefree.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 9,267
    Second!
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,693
    Third! Willy-waving? I didn't realise that was what Mrs May was doing in April. Bananas are marsupials. I think it should be against the law for people to commit crimes.
  • Farage and Godfrey Bloom confirming UKIP are the BNP in blazers is really troubling.

    Time to proscribe UKIP like we do with Combat 18,
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,576
    Excellent stuff Ms Cyclefree.

    Though I wonder if Jared O'Mara might have got an award - the Magic Money Tree Award for Getting Something for Nothing perhaps, as he continues to claim his MP's salary and not turn up.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 2,346
    Good stuff.
  • Hurrah for Tom Curran.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Essexit said:

    Excellent stuff Ms Cyclefree.

    Though I wonder if Jared O'Mara might have got an award - the Magic Money Tree Award for Getting Something for Nothing perhaps, as he continues to claim his MP's salary and not turn up.

    That is par for the course for politicians. Quite a few just collect their salaries, but rarely if ever turn up. Gordon Brown did for the 2010 parliament, Farage is famously innattentive, SF never show and for a year the Stormont assembly have picked up their pay but done no work.

    If the people vote for them, then they get their dosh no matter what a waste of space they are.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 30,933

    Essexit said:

    Excellent stuff Ms Cyclefree.

    Though I wonder if Jared O'Mara might have got an award - the Magic Money Tree Award for Getting Something for Nothing perhaps, as he continues to claim his MP's salary and not turn up.

    That is par for the course for politicians. Quite a few just collect their salaries, but rarely if ever turn up. Gordon Brown did for the 2010 parliament, Farage is famously innattentive, SF never show and for a year the Stormont assembly have picked up their pay but done no work.

    If the people vote for them, then they get their dosh no matter what a waste of space they are.
    Par for the course? A bit unfair on most MPs, I think.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 270
    Tulip Siddiq truly deserves her. As bad as her hateful remark about pregnancy, she also tried to play the race card to defend herself from her involvement with a rather nasty party in Bangladesh.
  • "Be The Best" is apparently not reaching the recruits sought, and I can understand why. If you are currently not all that confident in yourself - like many young men and women - you might not be able to imagine being the best, even if you might be. The army should be considering Gregory the Great's advice: "he who would climb to a lofty height must go by steps, not leaps".

    I had a conversation with my PT some years ago about what motivates people to go to the gym and why people might get a personal trainer. PTs often imagine that what motivates them is what motivates their potential customers. But customers at the bottom of the hill can't imagine committing to the kind of regime required and will not pick a trainer who has what they consider unrealistic or unattainable expectations of them. "Best" is unattainable for many, but "Better" is something we can all feel we can aim for, whatever "Better" might mean for each of us. He has "Be Better" on the back of his business cards and he does very good business indeed.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 18,207

    Farage and Godfrey Bloom confirming UKIP are the BNP in blazers is really troubling.

    Time to proscribe UKIP like we do with Combat 18,

    Don't you like political parties that disagree with you?

    UKIP is deeply unpleasant, as is the BNP, but neither should be proscribed. Combat 18's leadership have been directly implicated in violence and, in some cases, murder.
  • Great thread!

    The shock for many people is that politicians are also people. Which means the good the bad and the downright awful get elected to parliament. It can be easy for partisan people to make partisan comments about how certain awful MPs reflect on their party, but in reality there is good and bad in all parties.

    That said, I do think we should have a special award not for Jared O'Mara (whose sins appear to be being a "bloke") but to the people who were supposed to have vetted Jared O'Mara. The party now finds itself in the problematic position of having snatched Sheffield Hallam for the first time from the Tories (ok Clegg, same difference) has a sitting MP it should remove, but in doing so would likely lose the hard won seat. Hemce the need for a special award to the officials who did such a brilliant job. The Albatross award perhaps...
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 18,207

    "Be The Best" is apparently not reaching the recruits sought, and I can understand why. If you are currently not all that confident in yourself - like many young men and women - you might not be able to imagine being the best, even if you might be. The army should be considering Gregory the Great's advice: "he who would climb to a lofty height must go by steps, not leaps".

    I had a conversation with my PT some years ago about what motivates people to go to the gym and why people might get a personal trainer. PTs often imagine that what motivates them is what motivates their potential customers. But customers at the bottom of the hill can't imagine committing to the kind of regime required and will not pick a trainer who has what they consider unrealistic or unattainable expectations of them. "Best" is unattainable for many, but "Better" is something we can all feel we can aim for, whatever "Better" might mean for each of us. He has "Be Better" on the back of his business cards and he does very good business indeed.

    I agree. This is shabby and unworthy by Williamson.

    If the military commanders, presumably guided by data from their marketing department believe that a new slogan would be more effective in achieving their objectives it's not for a mere politician to overrule them
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 1,853

    "Be The Best" is apparently not reaching the recruits sought, and I can understand why. If you are currently not all that confident in yourself - like many young men and women - you might not be able to imagine being the best, even if you might be. The army should be considering Gregory the Great's advice: "he who would climb to a lofty height must go by steps, not leaps".

    I had a conversation with my PT some years ago about what motivates people to go to the gym and why people might get a personal trainer. PTs often imagine that what motivates them is what motivates their potential customers. But customers at the bottom of the hill can't imagine committing to the kind of regime required and will not pick a trainer who has what they consider unrealistic or unattainable expectations of them. "Best" is unattainable for many, but "Better" is something we can all feel we can aim for, whatever "Better" might mean for each of us. He has "Be Better" on the back of his business cards and he does very good business indeed.

    How about 'Fail better', as Sam Beckett put it?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    RobD said:

    Essexit said:

    Excellent stuff Ms Cyclefree.

    Though I wonder if Jared O'Mara might have got an award - the Magic Money Tree Award for Getting Something for Nothing perhaps, as he continues to claim his MP's salary and not turn up.

    That is par for the course for politicians. Quite a few just collect their salaries, but rarely if ever turn up. Gordon Brown did for the 2010 parliament, Farage is famously innattentive, SF never show and for a year the Stormont assembly have picked up their pay but done no work.

    If the people vote for them, then they get their dosh no matter what a waste of space they are.
    Par for the course? A bit unfair on most MPs, I think.
    Yes, there have always been a few indolent dolts in parliament who do very little, or spend all their time feathering their own nests, but many MPs are very hard working. I didn't phrase it very well.
  • Charles said:

    "Be The Best" is apparently not reaching the recruits sought, and I can understand why. If you are currently not all that confident in yourself - like many young men and women - you might not be able to imagine being the best, even if you might be. The army should be considering Gregory the Great's advice: "he who would climb to a lofty height must go by steps, not leaps".

    I had a conversation with my PT some years ago about what motivates people to go to the gym and why people might get a personal trainer. PTs often imagine that what motivates them is what motivates their potential customers. But customers at the bottom of the hill can't imagine committing to the kind of regime required and will not pick a trainer who has what they consider unrealistic or unattainable expectations of them. "Best" is unattainable for many, but "Better" is something we can all feel we can aim for, whatever "Better" might mean for each of us. He has "Be Better" on the back of his business cards and he does very good business indeed.

    I agree. This is shabby and unworthy by Williamson.

    If the military commanders, presumably guided by data from their marketing department believe that a new slogan would be more effective in achieving their objectives it's not for a mere politician to overrule them
    Oh dear,

    Back to the straight-line versus great-circle defence-debate.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,948

    Hurrah for Tom Curran.

    And Hurrah for Stuart Broad finally turning up.

    Cook I can just about account for - Australia are a bowler down, and this pitch most resembles the ones in India which Cook loves to bat forever on - but Broad ... ? A fantastic effort from two out of form players, though.
    Also kudos to Boycott's powers of prognostication - he commented at the start of play that our bowling looked as though it was going to make something happen for a change.

    In any event, we look a much better team when the senior players fire - though I fear it's possible we might regret the lack of a wicket taking spinner like Rashid if Australia should be trying to bat out the draw in their second innings.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,511

    Farage and Godfrey Bloom confirming UKIP are the BNP in blazers is really troubling.

    Time to proscribe UKIP like we do with Combat 18,

    Prohibiting UKIP, a party which got 27% at the 2014 European elections and 12% at the 2015 general election would be a very troubling development. You may as well ban Momentum too at the same time given the controversies they have been involved in too.

    Prince Harry editing the Today programme this morning.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,511
    Prince Harry interview with Barack Obama on R4 now
  • Good morning, everyone.

    The Women and Equalities Committee remains the most ironically and stupidly named of committees. It's all about equality. And one gender.
  • Charles said:

    Farage and Godfrey Bloom confirming UKIP are the BNP in blazers is really troubling.

    Time to proscribe UKIP like we do with Combat 18,

    Don't you like political parties that disagree with you?

    UKIP is deeply unpleasant, as is the BNP, but neither should be proscribed. Combat 18's leadership have been directly implicated in violence and, in some cases, murder.
    History has shown you need to nip these Jew baiting extremists in the bud before it escalates badly.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 28,039

    Essexit said:

    Excellent stuff Ms Cyclefree.

    Though I wonder if Jared O'Mara might have got an award - the Magic Money Tree Award for Getting Something for Nothing perhaps, as he continues to claim his MP's salary and not turn up.

    That is par for the course for politicians. Quite a few just collect their salaries, but rarely if ever turn up. Gordon Brown did for the 2010 parliament, Farage is famously innattentive, SF never show and for a year the Stormont assembly have picked up their pay but done no work.

    If the people vote for them, then they get their dosh no matter what a waste of space they are.
    Unusual for a first timer though I'd have thought. SF and the whole of Stormont are slightly different scenarios of course.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,628

    "Be The Best" is apparently not reaching the recruits sought, and I can understand why. If you are currently not all that confident in yourself - like many young men and women - you might not be able to imagine being the best, even if you might be. The army should be considering Gregory the Great's advice: "he who would climb to a lofty height must go by steps, not leaps".

    I had a conversation with my PT some years ago about what motivates people to go to the gym and why people might get a personal trainer. PTs often imagine that what motivates them is what motivates their potential customers. But customers at the bottom of the hill can't imagine committing to the kind of regime required and will not pick a trainer who has what they consider unrealistic or unattainable expectations of them. "Best" is unattainable for many, but "Better" is something we can all feel we can aim for, whatever "Better" might mean for each of us. He has "Be Better" on the back of his business cards and he does very good business indeed.

    Whatever Britain’s position in the world (both perceived and real) its armed forces should consist of the best candidates possible.

    Whatever conflict comes next (and, as Frank Kitson noted, it will be an unforeseen one) we need to face it as best prepared as possible.

    And if that means with soldiers who were attracted to the idea of being, and have tried to be the best, then so much the better.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 15,489
    Good morning, and hope everyone had a good Christmas. Even the England cricket team decided to finally turn up today, sadly when it won’t make much of a difference.

    An excellent year end thread from Ms Cyclefree, up to her usual high standard and well worth reflecting on for politicians of all stripes. We definitely need a proper recall system for MPs to deal with those who don’t treat the job with the respect it deserves and the honour of representing their constituents.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,628
    edited December 2017
    Oh and good thread!

    Harry sounding pretty sensible on the wireless.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 9,267
    TOPPING said:

    "Be The Best" is apparently not reaching the recruits sought, and I can understand why. If you are currently not all that confident in yourself - like many young men and women - you might not be able to imagine being the best, even if you might be. The army should be considering Gregory the Great's advice: "he who would climb to a lofty height must go by steps, not leaps".

    I had a conversation with my PT some years ago about what motivates people to go to the gym and why people might get a personal trainer. PTs often imagine that what motivates them is what motivates their potential customers. But customers at the bottom of the hill can't imagine committing to the kind of regime required and will not pick a trainer who has what they consider unrealistic or unattainable expectations of them. "Best" is unattainable for many, but "Better" is something we can all feel we can aim for, whatever "Better" might mean for each of us. He has "Be Better" on the back of his business cards and he does very good business indeed.

    Whatever Britain’s position in the world (both perceived and real) its armed forces should consist of the best candidates possible.

    Whatever conflict comes next (and, as Frank Kitson noted, it will be an unforeseen one) we need to face it as best prepared as possible.

    And if that means with soldiers who were attracted to the idea of being, and have tried to be the best, then so much the better.
    Turning things around, partly for devilish advocacy, if you have a limited pool of 'best' people and are able to deploy them whenever best benefits the country, I am not sure that sending that many of them to the armed forces would be optimal arrangement. It should more be a question of horses for courses, and therefore whether the advertising pitch is appealing to the right type of people.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,628
    BO speaking directly to PB right now.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 28,039
    edited December 2017
    Charles said:

    "Be The Best" is apparently not reaching the recruits sought, and I can understand why. If you are currently not all that confident in yourself - like many young men and women - you might not be able to imagine being the best, even if you might be. The army should be considering Gregory the Great's advice: "he who would climb to a lofty height must go by steps, not leaps".

    I had a conversation with my PT some years ago about what motivates people to go to the gym and why people might get a personal trainer. PTs often imagine that what motivates them is what motivates their potential customers. But customers at the bottom of the hill can't imagine committing to the kind of regime required and will not pick a trainer who has what they consider unrealistic or unattainable expectations of them. "Best" is unattainable for many, but "Better" is something we can all feel we can aim for, whatever "Better" might mean for each of us. He has "Be Better" on the back of his business cards and he does very good business indeed.

    I agree. This is shabby and unworthy by Williamson.

    If the military commanders, presumably guided by data from their marketing department believe that a new slogan would be more effective in achieving their objectives it's not for a mere politician to overrule them
    I disagree I have to say. Slogans are vapid and pointless things and hardly something specialised and technical that one needs to defer to the military expertise about. Marketers might say it's a problem, but marketing will say anything. Odds are if the problem is not enough people want to join the army it's because it looks unappealing to most people, and changing the slogan is exactly the kind of meaningless change someone comes up with to try to turn things around without actually addressing the root cause of the issue. Also because it should cost almost nothing. (Half a million is nothing for the people who waste billions long defence procurement - and still a stupid waste of money). I don't even know what the slogan of the RAF is, is that marketing failure a problem too?

    Now, I don't mind if they do change it, but I really struggle to see the outrage here - it's precisely the sort of thing a politician can weigh in on without too much worry, it's not US politicians ordering tanks the army don't want as it creates jobs in their districts. Certainly calling it shabby seems unfair on Williamson, be if the right or wrong decision.

    The logical endpoint would be that everyone must do what market researchers tell them to do, no matter what, because who are any of us to say otherwise.

    Really not feeling the outrage at a politician daring to make such a minor call, and one geared around marketing at that.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,948
    IanB2 said:

    TOPPING said:

    "Be The Best" is apparently not reaching the recruits sought, and I can understand why. If you are currently not all that confident in yourself - like many young men and women - you might not be able to imagine being the best, even if you might be. The army should be considering Gregory the Great's advice: "he who would climb to a lofty height must go by steps, not leaps".

    I had a conversation with my PT some years ago about what motivates people to go to the gym and why people might get a personal trainer. PTs often imagine that what motivates them is what motivates their potential customers. But customers at the bottom of the hill can't imagine committing to the kind of regime required and will not pick a trainer who has what they consider unrealistic or unattainable expectations of them. "Best" is unattainable for many, but "Better" is something we can all feel we can aim for, whatever "Better" might mean for each of us. He has "Be Better" on the back of his business cards and he does very good business indeed.

    Whatever Britain’s position in the world (both perceived and real) its armed forces should consist of the best candidates possible.

    Whatever conflict comes next (and, as Frank Kitson noted, it will be an unforeseen one) we need to face it as best prepared as possible.

    And if that means with soldiers who were attracted to the idea of being, and have tried to be the best, then so much the better.
    Turning things around, partly for devilish advocacy, if you have a limited pool of 'best' people and are able to deploy them whenever best benefits the country, I am not sure that sending that many of them to the armed forces would be optimal arrangement. It should more be a question of horses for courses, and therefore whether the advertising pitch is appealing to the right type of people.
    Quite.
    Hyperbole about the military is one thing; when it is demonstrably ineffective, then retaining it to gratify some overpromoted politician's ego is quite indefensible.

  • Mr. Eagles, you're more against UKIP than the Al Quds march through London?
  • Mr. Eagles, you're more against UKIP than the Al Quds march through London?

    You show me some Jew baiting comments from that march and I’ll condemn them too.

    I’m against all forms of anti-Semitism.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,908
    For the first time this winter I get up and England have had a good day. Not a good session but a good day. And BT have no catch up and no highlights available until midday. Really not good enough. Bring back Sky.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,628

    Mr. Eagles, you're more against UKIP than the Al Quds march through London?

    You show me some Jew baiting comments from that march and I’ll condemn them too.

    I’m against all forms of anti-Semitism.
    The Al Quds march is one long Jew bait. The Hezbollah flags routinely carried on it just the icing on the cake.

  • Nigelb said:

    Hurrah for Tom Curran.

    And Hurrah for Stuart Broad finally turning up.

    Cook I can just about account for - Australia are a bowler down, and this pitch most resembles the ones in India which Cook loves to bat forever on - but Broad ... ? A fantastic effort from two out of form players, though.
    Also kudos to Boycott's powers of prognostication - he commented at the start of play that our bowling looked as though it was going to make something happen for a change.

    In any event, we look a much better team when the senior players fire - though I fear it's possible we might regret the lack of a wicket taking spinner like Rashid if Australia should be trying to bat out the draw in their second innings.
    The three heavy defeats may me calmer about the poor selections. I had thought we might give the Aussies a run for their money if we had taken our best squad, but the defeats were so resounding that it was hard to think that better selections would have made much difference.

    Suddenly, I'm not so sure again. The obstinate refusal to take Rashid never looked justifiable and now looks a dreadful blunder. Hales and Buttler instead of Vince and Balance would have stiffened the batting. Enough? Probably not, but who outside the england Selectors preferred the two that went to the two left behind? Not many.

    The selectors could now do English cricket a great service by dropping themselves. It's not going to happen though and I suspect that any success the team now enjoys will be used to gloss over the inadequacies in both the process and the personnel involved in selection.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,628
    Heavy snow where I am btw.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 28,039
    edited December 2017
    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    "Be The Best" is apparently not reaching the recruits sought, and I can understand why. If you are currently not all that confident in yourself - like many young men and women - you might not be able to imagine being the best, even if you might be. The army should be considering Gregory the Great's advice: "he who would climb to a lofty height must go by steps, not leaps".

    I had a conversation with my PT some years ago about what motivates people we can aim for, whatever "Better" might mean for each of us. He has "Be Better" on the back of his business cards and he does very good business indeed.

    I agree. This is shabby and unworthy by Williamson.

    If the military commanders, presumably guided by ng their objectives it's not for a mere politician to overrule them
    I disagree I have to say. Slogans are vapid and pointless things and hardly something specialised and technical that one needs to defer to the military expertise about. Marketers might say it's a problem, but marketing will say anything. Odds are if the problem is not enough people want to join the army it's because it looks unappealing to most people, and changing the slogan is exactly the kind of meaningless change someone comes up with to try to turn things around without actually addressing the root cause of the issue. Also because it should cost almost nothing. (Half a million is nothing for the people who waste billions long defence procurement - and still a stupid waste of money). I don't even know what the slogan of the RAF is, is that marketing failure a problem too?

    Now, I don't mind if they do change it, but I really struggle to see the outrage here - it's precisely the sort of thing a politician can weigh in on without too much worry, it's not US politicians ordering tanks the army don't want as it creates jobs in their districts. Certainly calling it shabby seems unfair on Williamson, be if the right or wrong decision.

    The logical endpoint would be that everyone must do what market researchers tell them to do, no matter what, because who are any of us to say otherwise.

    Really not feeling the outrage at a politician daring to make such a minor call, and one geared around marketing at that.
    Or in short, I find it hard to believe the slogan is the primary issue which is causing a problem, and while there's no reason to resist a change merely because it is a change, there's probably deeper problems that need solving.

    It is also the job of elected officials to take advice from professionals and then make a decision, it's not shabby to come to a different conclusion if they failed to convince, especially when, again, it's only an argument from market research, not military strategy.

    Sigh, and now time for work.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 42,096
    Perhaps the army slogan could be changed to 'Simply the best', the DUP would approve I feel.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,628
    edited December 2017
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    "Be The Best" is apparently not reaching the recruits sought, and I can understand why. If you are currently not all that confident in yourself - like many young men and women - you might not be able to imagine being the besmb to a lofty height must go by steps, not leaps".

    Imean for each of us. He has "Be Better" on the back of his business cards and he does very good business indeed.

    I agree. This is shabby and unworthy by Williamson.

    If the military commanders, presumably guided by data from their marketing department believe that a new slogan would be more effective in achieving their objectives it's not for a mere politician to overrule them
    I disagree I have to say. Slogans are vapid and pointless things and hardly something specialised and technical that one needs to defer to the military expertise about. Marketers might say it's a problem, but marketing will say anything. Odds are if the problem is not enough people want to join the army it's because it looks unappealing to most people, and changing the slogan is exactly the kind of meaningless change someone comes up with to try to turn things around without actually addressing the root cause of the issue. Also because it should cost almost nothing. (Half a million is nothing for the people who waste billions long defence procurement - and still a stupid waste of money). I don't even know what the slogan of the RAF is, is that marketing failure a problem too?

    Now, I don't mind if they do change it, but I really struggle to see the outrage here - it's precisely the sort of thing a politician can weigh in on without too much worry, it's not US politicians ordering tanks the army don't want as it creates jobs in their districts. Certainly calling it shabby seems unfair on Williamson, be if the right or wrong decision.

    The logical endpoint would be that everyone must do what market researchers tell them to do, no matter what, because who are any of us to say otherwise.

    Really not feeling the outrage at a politician daring to make such a minor call, and one geared around marketing at that.
    Or in short, I find it hard to believe the slogan is the primary issue which is causing a problem, and while there's no reason to resist a change merely because it is a change, there's probably deeper problems that need solving.

    It is also the job of elected officials to take advice from professionals and then make a decision, it's not shabby to come to a different conclusion if they failed to convince, especially when, again, it's only an argument from market research, not military strategy.
    If the elected officials had taken note of the generals' preferred mode of operations in Afghan and then said: "er, no" we would all have been better off.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,908
    Oh and a very good thread header.

    I was trying to think of some more positive awards for politicians.

    Possibly the Lazarus award for Ruth Davidson (part 2) in reviving the moribund Scottish Tories.

    The human decency award to Doug Jones and the people of Alabama (just).

    The say the right thing award to Sajid Javid in the aftermath of Grenfell Tower.

    Best performance at a rock festival to Jeremy Corbyn?

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 8,132
    edited December 2017

    Nigelb said:

    Hurrah for Tom Curran.

    And Hurrah for Stuart Broad finally turning up.

    Cook I can just about account for - Australia are a bowler down, and this pitch most resembles the ones in India which Cook loves to bat forever on - but Broad ... ? A fantastic effort from two out of form players, though.
    Also kudos to Boycott's powers of prognostication - he commented at the start of play that our bowling looked as though it was going to make something happen for a change.

    In any event, we look a much better team when the senior players fire - though I fear it's possible we might regret the lack of a wicket taking spinner like Rashid if Australia should be trying to bat out the draw in their second innings.
    The three heavy defeats may me calmer about the poor selections. I had thought we might give the Aussies a run for their money if we had taken our best squad, but the defeats were so resounding that it was hard to think that better selections would have made much difference.

    Suddenly, I'm not so sure again. The obstinate refusal to take Rashid never looked justifiable and now looks a dreadful blunder. Hales and Buttler instead of Vince and Balance would have stiffened the batting. Enough? Probably not, but who outside the england Selectors preferred the two that went to the two left behind? Not many.

    The selectors could now do English cricket a great service by dropping themselves. It's not going to happen though and I suspect that any success the team now enjoys will be used to gloss over the inadequacies in both the process and the personnel involved in selection.
    Ballance has a better Test record than Buttler. 1498 runs at 37 with four centuries compared to Buttler 784 runs at 31 with a top score of 85 in just five fewer matches. Ballance also averaged over 100 in the Championship this year - Buttler played two, maybe three matches?

    I know you like Buttler, but he is a wicketkeeper who can bat not a batsman.

    I agree about Vince and Hales.
  • DavidL said:

    Oh and a very good thread header.

    I was trying to think of some more positive awards for politicians.

    Possibly the Lazarus award for Ruth Davidson (part 2) in reviving the moribund Scottish Tories.

    The human decency award to Doug Jones and the people of Alabama (just).

    The say the right thing award to Sajid Javid in the aftermath of Grenfell Tower.

    Best performance at a rock festival to Jeremy Corbyn?

    Oh, the Shackleton Award for Survival Against The Odds has to go to the Prime Minister, no?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,948

    Nigelb said:

    Hurrah for Tom Curran.

    And Hurrah for Stuart Broad finally turning up.

    Cook I can just about account for - Australia are a bowler down, and this pitch most resembles the ones in India which Cook loves to bat forever on - but Broad ... ? A fantastic effort from two out of form players, though.
    Also kudos to Boycott's powers of prognostication - he commented at the start of play that our bowling looked as though it was going to make something happen for a change.

    In any event, we look a much better team when the senior players fire - though I fear it's possible we might regret the lack of a wicket taking spinner like Rashid if Australia should be trying to bat out the draw in their second innings.
    The three heavy defeats may me calmer about the poor selections. I had thought we might give the Aussies a run for their money if we had taken our best squad, but the defeats were so resounding that it was hard to think that better selections would have made much difference.

    Suddenly, I'm not so sure again. The obstinate refusal to take Rashid never looked justifiable and now looks a dreadful blunder. Hales and Buttler instead of Vince and Balance would have stiffened the batting. Enough? Probably not, but who outside the england Selectors preferred the two that went to the two left behind? Not many.

    The selectors could now do English cricket a great service by dropping themselves. It's not going to happen though and I suspect that any success the team now enjoys will be used to gloss over the inadequacies in both the process and the personnel involved in selection.
    I think while Australia's first choice attack was fit, the gulf between the teams was quite significant.

    There's probably not that much between the batting lineups however (I don't think Smith, for instance, would look quite so Bradmanesque were he facing up to his own pace trio) as both teams have significant weaknesses.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 8,132
    DavidL said:

    Oh and a very good thread header.

    I was trying to think of some more positive awards for politicians.

    Possibly the Lazarus award for Ruth Davidson (part 2) in reviving the moribund Scottish Tories.

    The human decency award to Doug Jones and the people of Alabama (just).

    The say the right thing award to Sajid Javid in the aftermath of Grenfell Tower.

    Best performance at a rock festival to Jeremy Corbyn?

    Most incompetent mishandling of a much-needed sacking - Carwyn Jones for dismissing Carl Sergeant not because of his dreadful record in mismanaging local government but for unspecified allegations that the Labour Party appears to have since decided have no basis in fact, making his suicide all the more tragic?
  • ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Hurrah for Tom Curran.

    And Hurrah for Stuart Broad finally turning up.

    Cook I can just about account for - Australia are a bowler down, and this pitch most resembles the ones in India which Cook loves to bat forever on - but Broad ... ? A fantastic effort from two out of form players, though.
    Also kudos to Boycott's powers of prognostication - he commented at the start of play that our bowling looked as though it was going to make something happen for a change.

    In any event, we look a much better team when the senior players fire - though I fear it's possible we might regret the lack of a wicket taking spinner like Rashid if Australia should be trying to bat out the draw in their second innings.
    The three heavy defeats may me calmer about the poor selections. I had thought we might give the Aussies a run for their money if we had taken our best squad, but the defeats were so resounding that it was hard to think that better selections would have made much difference.

    Suddenly, I'm not so sure again. The obstinate refusal to take Rashid never looked justifiable and now looks a dreadful blunder. Hales and Buttler instead of Vince and Balance would have stiffened the batting. Enough? Probably not, but who outside the england Selectors preferred the two that went to the two left behind? Not many.

    The selectors could now do English cricket a great service by dropping themselves. It's not going to happen though and I suspect that any success the team now enjoys will be used to gloss over the inadequacies in both the process and the personnel involved in selection.
    Ballance has a better Test record than Buttler. 1498 runs at 37 with four centuries compared to Buttler 784 runs at 31 with a top score of 85 in just five fewer matches. Ballance also averaged over 100 in the Championship this year - Buttler played two, maybe three matches?

    I know you like Buttler, but he is a wicketkeeper who can bat not a batsman.

    I agree about Vince and Hales.
    Noted witht thanks, Doc, but my suggestion would have been to take Buttler as a reserve wicketkeeper and free up an extra place in the squad. He might then still have come in to replace somebody having a poor run (in the event, Vince).

    But I am of course trying to think logically, which is why I would be no good as an England selector.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,948

    DavidL said:

    Oh and a very good thread header.

    I was trying to think of some more positive awards for politicians.

    Possibly the Lazarus award for Ruth Davidson (part 2) in reviving the moribund Scottish Tories.

    The human decency award to Doug Jones and the people of Alabama (just).

    The say the right thing award to Sajid Javid in the aftermath of Grenfell Tower.

    Best performance at a rock festival to Jeremy Corbyn?

    Oh, the Shackleton Award for Survival Against The Odds has to go to the Prime Minister, no?
    Shackleton was an exceptional organiser and a fine leader.....
    Perhaps a slight modification to that award might be in order ?
  • Mr. Doethur, has there been news about that? I haven't heard anything since the suicide.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,908
    The real problem in Australia has not really been the batting at all, its been the inability to take 20 wickets. Bowlers who are just not fast enough and don't make enough use of variable speed and bounce are too predictable and too easy to defend against on Australian wickets. Only impatience or carelessness threatens the Australian top order and Smith in particular has shown little sign of either.

    We have had batting collapses but they are an inevitable consequence of the scoreboard pressure England have so relentlessly been under. I am a fan of Hales but Stoneman has done well as has Ballance. Only Vince has really failed to shine amongst the new boys. Root has disappointed hugely and seems to be finding the captaincy a strain. Cook has been terrible until now but has got an unbeaten century.

    The real mystery has been Ali. Last summer he was vying with Ben Stokes and the captain for our most valuable player but he has failed with ball and bat in quite an epic way. Really not sure what is wrong there given the success of Lyon.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 8,132
    Nigelb said:


    I think while Australia's first choice attack was fit, the gulf between the teams was quite significant.

    There's probably not that much between the batting lineups however (I don't think Smith, for instance, would look quite so Bradmanesque were he facing up to his own pace trio) as both teams have significant weaknesses.

    Australia's problem is not that their batsmen are not excellent on home soil. They are, on hard flat pitches where their lack of footwork and hard hands allow them to attack.

    The problem is that this method doesn't travel well. This is a somewhat weaker batting lineup than the one Stuart Broad carved up for 60 on an otherwise innocuous pitch at Trent Bridge two years ago when the ball moved. The reason I say it is weaker is that their new opener Bancroft averaged 25 over two seasons in the second division of the Championship - not much more than half what his opening partner Chris Dent did in the same time.

    Their bowlers also looked short of ideas when the ball wasn't bouncing high. They don't seem to have the guile of McGrath or Gillespie (or Donald or Ambrose for the matter of that).

    A great side wins at home and away. This is a very good side, but it is far from a great one.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 16,241
    Charles said:

    Farage and Godfrey Bloom confirming UKIP are the BNP in blazers is really troubling.

    Time to proscribe UKIP like we do with Combat 18,

    Don't you like political parties that disagree with you?

    UKIP is deeply unpleasant, as is the BNP, but neither should be proscribed. Combat 18's leadership have been directly implicated in violence and, in some cases, murder.
    he'll be banning buses next
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 8,132

    Mr. Doethur, has there been news about that? I haven't heard anything since the suicide.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/06/labour-drops-investigation-claims-carl-sargeant

    Although it claims Sergeant's death means they cannot follow procedures, I do not find their claims convincing. A police inquiry would be different.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,908
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Oh and a very good thread header.

    I was trying to think of some more positive awards for politicians.

    Possibly the Lazarus award for Ruth Davidson (part 2) in reviving the moribund Scottish Tories.

    The human decency award to Doug Jones and the people of Alabama (just).

    The say the right thing award to Sajid Javid in the aftermath of Grenfell Tower.

    Best performance at a rock festival to Jeremy Corbyn?

    Most incompetent mishandling of a much-needed sacking - Carwyn Jones for dismissing Carl Sergeant not because of his dreadful record in mismanaging local government but for unspecified allegations that the Labour Party appears to have since decided have no basis in fact, making his suicide all the more tragic?
    Carwyn Jones strikes me as a decent sort. Not particularly competent but decent. Which makes his handling of this with a long time friend and colleague all the more bewildering. Maybe Carl Sergeant needs a posthumous award for reminding us that even politicians are human.
  • Mr. Doethur, cheers for that reply. A tragic turn of events. Hopefully that and the collapsed rape case in London will stop this ridiculous idea that accusers should be automatically believed and referred to as victims before any charges, let alone successful prosecution, has occurred.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 8,132

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Hurrah for Tom Curran.

    And Hurrah for Stuart Broad finally turning up.

    Cook I can just about account for - Australia are a bowler down, and this pitch most resembles the ones in India which Cook loves to bat forever on - but Broad ... ? A fantastic effort from two out of form players, though.
    Also kudos to Boycott's powers of prognostication - he commented at the start of play that our bowling looked as though it was going to make something happen for a change.

    In any event, we look a much better team when the senior players fire - though I fear it's possible we might regret the lack of a wicket taking spinner like Rashid if Australia should be trying to bat out the draw in their second innings.
    The three heavy defeats may me calmer about the poor selections. I had thought we might give the Aussies a run for their money if we had taken our best squad, but the defeats were so resounding that it was hard to think that better selections would have made much difference.

    Suddenly, I'm not so sure again. The obstinate refusal to take Rashid never looked justifiable and now looks a dreadful blunder. Hales and Buttler instead of Vince and Balance would have stiffened the batting. Enough? Probably not, but who outside the england Selectors preferred the two that went to the two left behind? Not many.

    The selectors could now do English cricket a great service by dropping themselves. It's not going to happen though and I suspect that any success the team now enjoys will be used to gloss over the inadequacies in both the process and the personnel involved in selection.
    Ballance has a better Test record than Buttler. 1498 runs at 37 with four centuries compared to Buttler 784 runs at 31 with a top score of 85 in just five fewer matches. Ballance also averaged over 100 in the Championship this year - Buttler played two, maybe three matches?

    I know you like Buttler, but he is a wicketkeeper who can bat not a batsman.

    I agree about Vince and Hales.
    Noted witht thanks, Doc, but my suggestion would have been to take Buttler as a reserve wicketkeeper and free up an extra place in the squad. He might then still have come in to replace somebody having a poor run (in the event, Vince).

    But I am of course trying to think logically, which is why I would be no good as an England selector.
    Foakes has a better first class record than Buttler as well - averaging 41 against 31. While I can see the force of not having a debutant up the order, I still think arguing for a one-day specialist and wicketkeeper like Buttler ahead of any given batsman is an error as that is an entirely justifiable decision by the selectors.
  • Charles said:

    Farage and Godfrey Bloom confirming UKIP are the BNP in blazers is really troubling.

    Time to proscribe UKIP like we do with Combat 18,

    Don't you like political parties that disagree with you?

    UKIP is deeply unpleasant, as is the BNP, but neither should be proscribed. Combat 18's leadership have been directly implicated in violence and, in some cases, murder.
    he'll be banning buses next
    No.

    Buses are useful for identifying failures in life.

    Cf Mrs Thatcher’s reputed comments on bus users. Even if she didn’t say it, the sentiment was right.
  • DavidL said:

    The real problem in Australia has not really been the batting at all, its been the inability to take 20 wickets. Bowlers who are just not fast enough and don't make enough use of variable speed and bounce are too predictable and too easy to defend against on Australian wickets. Only impatience or carelessness threatens the Australian top order and Smith in particular has shown little sign of either.

    We have had batting collapses but they are an inevitable consequence of the scoreboard pressure England have so relentlessly been under. I am a fan of Hales but Stoneman has done well as has Ballance. Only Vince has really failed to shine amongst the new boys. Root has disappointed hugely and seems to be finding the captaincy a strain. Cook has been terrible until now but has got an unbeaten century.

    The real mystery has been Ali. Last summer he was vying with Ben Stokes and the captain for our most valuable player but he has failed with ball and bat in quite an epic way. Really not sure what is wrong there given the success of Lyon.

    Ali got a blister on his spinning finger, an all too predictable ailment when a good part-time spinner is promoted to number one.

    The absence of another credible spinner on the tour is inexcusable.
  • Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Oh and a very good thread header.

    I was trying to think of some more positive awards for politicians.

    Possibly the Lazarus award for Ruth Davidson (part 2) in reviving the moribund Scottish Tories.

    The human decency award to Doug Jones and the people of Alabama (just).

    The say the right thing award to Sajid Javid in the aftermath of Grenfell Tower.

    Best performance at a rock festival to Jeremy Corbyn?

    Oh, the Shackleton Award for Survival Against The Odds has to go to the Prime Minister, no?
    Shackleton was an exceptional organiser and a fine leader.....
    Perhaps a slight modification to that award might be in order ?
    :)
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,112
    edited December 2017
    Thanks for the comments.

    I’m a touch sceptical of marketing gurus. I’d have though that poor pay and poor housing might be greater deterrents to recruitment than a motto.

    But I am an unashamed elitist not in the sense of being a snob (I hope) but in the sense of believing that everyone has some talent, some skill and everyone can, if they try, aim to do whatever they do, as well as possible. People who care for old people at the end of life, who sit with them, who clean them and tend to them, who sit with them and show infinite kindness and patience are doing their best, are an elite and are admirable. They are an elite and should be proud of what they do. And so should we.

    There is nothing wrong with aiming for the best. Having low expectations of people is self-fulfilling. That was the point I was trying to make. The army has often been good at taking young men with perhaps not much to recommend them and helped them make something of themselves. Take one example from today: Prince Harry - not an academic and a bit lost but turned out, by all reports, to be a good officer.

    “Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could only do a little.”

    Edmund Burke

    Perhaps the Army could use this.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 8,132
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Oh and a very good thread header.

    I was trying to think of some more positive awards for politicians.

    Possibly the Lazarus award for Ruth Davidson (part 2) in reviving the moribund Scottish Tories.

    The human decency award to Doug Jones and the people of Alabama (just).

    The say the right thing award to Sajid Javid in the aftermath of Grenfell Tower.

    Best performance at a rock festival to Jeremy Corbyn?

    Most incompetent mishandling of a much-needed sacking - Carwyn Jones for dismissing Carl Sergeant not because of his dreadful record in mismanaging local government but for unspecified allegations that the Labour Party appears to have since decided have no basis in fact, making his suicide all the more tragic?
    Carwyn Jones strikes me as a decent sort. Not particularly competent but decent. Which makes his handling of this with a long time friend and colleague all the more bewildering. Maybe Carl Sergeant needs a posthumous award for reminding us that even politicians are human.
    Leighton Andrews hates him. So he can't be all bad! :wink:

    Seriously though, if ever a party needed ten years in opposition it's Welsh Labour. They are in a dreadful mess and it's getting worse not better. However, with the opposition so divided that just isn't going to happen.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 42,096
    edited December 2017
    *After time alert*
    On the cricket, I backed 5-0 and then (via Betfair) took some profit a few days ago.

    Here are the relevant factors.

    1) England lost their best all rounder. You simply can't replace Stokes.
    2) Home advantage is 'bigger' in cricket than any other sport due to the ability to prepare wickets to suit. Smith and the Aus pace attack are much much stronger on the hard bouncy wickets in Aus compared to elsewhere..

    Now though there are a couple of factors working for England..
    3) Teams can take their foot slightly off the gas with a won series - subconsciously it often happens.
    4) Starc is fragile and probably was never going to last the full series.

    4-1 most likely now on the basis England will probably relax a bit too having avoided the whitewash; and draws are unlikely
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 8,132
    edited December 2017

    DavidL said:

    The real problem in Australia has not really been the batting at all, its been the inability to take 20 wickets. Bowlers who are just not fast enough and don't make enough use of variable speed and bounce are too predictable and too easy to defend against on Australian wickets. Only impatience or carelessness threatens the Australian top order and Smith in particular has shown little sign of either.

    We have had batting collapses but they are an inevitable consequence of the scoreboard pressure England have so relentlessly been under. I am a fan of Hales but Stoneman has done well as has Ballance. Only Vince has really failed to shine amongst the new boys. Root has disappointed hugely and seems to be finding the captaincy a strain. Cook has been terrible until now but has got an unbeaten century.

    The real mystery has been Ali. Last summer he was vying with Ben Stokes and the captain for our most valuable player but he has failed with ball and bat in quite an epic way. Really not sure what is wrong there given the success of Lyon.

    Ali got a blister on his spinning finger, an all too predictable ailment when a good part-time spinner is promoted to number one.

    The absence of another credible spinner on the tour is inexcusable.
    I would love to know what Adil Rashid has done to upset the selectors. This idea that he isn't picked because he doesn't offer control is the most unconvincing lie since Richard III said he didn't murder the Princes in the Tower. If he offers control in the one day game, and takes wickets in five day games, he's good enough. Sure, he bowls release balls when attacking but so has every spinner in history except Warne, who was just a freak. He and Moeen Ali at either end on a fifth day pitch would I think be a handful.
  • I haven't noticed much coverage of the positive polling that Emmanuel Macron has been getting recently. I saw an awful lot of comments when he made an initially hesitant start. No doubt those who had been concerned on his behalf have just been enjoying the Christmas break:




  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Hurrah for Tom Curran.

    And Hurrah for Stuart Broad finally turning up.

    Cook I can just about account for - Australia are a bowler down, and this pitch most resembles the ones in India which Cook loves to bat forever on - but Broad ... ? A fantastic effort from two out of form players, though.
    Also kudos to Boycott's powers of prognostication - he commented at the start of play that our bowling looked as though it was going to make something happen for a change.

    In any event, we look a much better team when the senior players fire - though I fear it's possible we might regret the lack of a wicket taking spinner like Rashid if Australia should be trying to bat out the draw in their second innings.
    The three heavy defeats may me calmer about the poor selections. I had thought we might give the Aussies a run for their money if we had taken our best squad, but the defeats were so resounding that it was hard to think that better selections would have made much difference.

    njoys will be used to gloss over the inadequacies in both the process and the personnel involved in selection.
    Ballance has a better Test record than Buttler. 1498 runs at 37 with four centuries compared to Buttler 784 runs at 31 with a top score of 85 in just five fewer matches. Ballance also averaged over 100 in the Championship this year - Buttler played two, maybe three matches?

    I know you like Buttler, but he is a wicketkeeper who can bat not a batsman.

    I agree about Vince and Hales.
    Noted witht thanks, Doc, but my suggestion would have been to take Buttler as a reserve wicketkeeper and free up an extra place in the squad. He might then still have come in to replace somebody having a poor run (in the event, Vince).

    But I am of course trying to think logically, which is why I would be no good as an England selector.
    Foakes has a better first class record than Buttler as well - averaging 41 against 31. While I can see the force of not having a debutant up the order, I still think arguing for a one-day specialist and wicketkeeper like Buttler ahead of any given batsman is an error as that is an entirely justifiable decision by the selectors.
    Not just about averages though, is it? If it were, a few of the current squad would not even have been on the short list. The bowling line up would laso have been very different.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 42,096
    edited December 2017

    I haven't noticed much coverage of the positive polling that Emmanuel Macron has been getting recently. I saw an awful lot of comments when he made an initially hesitant start. No doubt those who had been concerned on his behalf have just been enjoying the Christmas break:




    I think the most interesting fact about French politics is that the centre and right have a completely enormous majority the likes of which may never be seen again. If labour reform does not take place now there, it probably never will.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,112

    Mr. Eagles, you're more against UKIP than the Al Quds march through London?

    You show me some Jew baiting comments from that march and I’ll condemn them too.

    I’m against all forms of anti-Semitism.
    http://hurryupharry.org/2017/12/22/not-prosecuting-antisemitism-in-britain/

    Just one example. Plenty more. Emily Thornberry gets it. A pity her leader doesn’t.
  • ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    The real problem in Australia has not really been the batting at all, its been the inability to take 20 wickets. Bowlers who are just not fast enough and don't make enough use of variable speed and bounce are too predictable and too easy to defend against on Australian wickets. Only impatience or carelessness threatens the Australian top order and Smith in particular has shown little sign of either.

    We have had batting collapses but they are an inevitable consequence of the scoreboard pressure England have so relentlessly been under. I am a fan of Hales but Stoneman has done well as has Ballance. Only Vince has really failed to shine amongst the new boys. Root has disappointed hugely and seems to be finding the captaincy a strain. Cook has been terrible until now but has got an unbeaten century.

    The real mystery has been Ali. Last summer he was vying with Ben Stokes and the captain for our most valuable player but he has failed with ball and bat in quite an epic way. Really not sure what is wrong there given the success of Lyon.

    Ali got a blister on his spinning finger, an all too predictable ailment when a good part-time spinner is promoted to number one.

    The absence of another credible spinner on the tour is inexcusable.
    I would love to know what Adil Rashid has done to upset the selectors. This idea that he isn't picked because he doesn't offer control is the most unconvincing lie since Richard III said he didn't murder the Princes in the Tower. If he offers control in the one day game, and takes wickets in five day games, he's good enough. Sure, he bowls release balls when attacking but so has every spinner in history except Warne, who was just a freak. He and Moeen Ali at either end on a fifth day pitch would I think be a handful.
    If there were a plausible alternative, I could understand it. But I fail to see the point in picking an implausible alternative just because the obvious one has flaws. If he's the best we have, the selectors cannot be blamed if he is not good enough. But there is no sense in picking somebody who is plainly not the best (applies to Dawson as well as Crane) simply to be different. Or if there is any sense, nobody has explained it.

    And that is the crux of the matter. It's not so much errors in individual selections, it's the whole process. It is incoherent.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,112
    Cyclefree said:

    Mr. Eagles, you're more against UKIP than the Al Quds march through London?

    You show me some Jew baiting comments from that march and I’ll condemn them too.

    I’m against all forms of anti-Semitism.
    http://hurryupharry.org/2017/12/22/not-prosecuting-antisemitism-in-britain/

    Just one example. Plenty more. Emily Thornberry gets it. A pity her leader doesn’t.
    Or this - http://hurryupharry.org/2017/06/21/some-thoughts-on-al-quds-day-sadiq-khan-antisemitism-and-anti-muslim-prejudice/
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,252
    HYUFD said:

    Prince Harry interview with Barack Obama on R4 now

    Glad I slept late this morning
  • Test post....to see if I am banned after my comments on the shit show that is the new Star Wars movie.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 9,827

    Essexit said:

    Excellent stuff Ms Cyclefree.

    Though I wonder if Jared O'Mara might have got an award - the Magic Money Tree Award for Getting Something for Nothing perhaps, as he continues to claim his MP's salary and not turn up.

    That is par for the course for politicians. Quite a few just collect their salaries, but rarely if ever turn up. Gordon Brown did for the 2010 parliament, Farage is famously innattentive, SF never show and for a year the Stormont assembly have picked up their pay but done no work.

    If the people vote for them, then they get their dosh no matter what a waste of space they are.
    Nah, those are all unique cases - 99% of politicians do turn up consistently and are deselected at the first opportunity if they don't, unless there's a very good reason (usually health). Brown was (rightly) afraid that every facial expression would be interpreted as a comment on his successor, like Heath - he should have gone to the Lords. Farage and SF would both say they were elected with a mandate to treat the institutions with indifference. And as Stormont isn't sitting, the members can't actually turn up no matter how much they want to! But they also ccan't take another job since it may start sitting at any time.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 4,259
    edited December 2017
    We must surely give the St Jude Award for Sustaining the Hopeless and the Despaired to our own Alastair Meeks for his work on behalf of distressed Remainers.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 28,039

    Test post....to see if I am banned after my comments on the shit show that is the new Star Wars movie.

    I believe in freedom of speech, so you shouldn't be banned, despite such a crazy and aberrant view tempting me to call for a mob.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 9,827
    To offer a probably unpopular rationale for why the marketing people will have told the Army to change - "Be the Best" ties in with quite a few other things about the Army's image to give the impression of a traditionalist establishment body in which, coming from an excellent school with private tutors and extensive sporting holidays, you can reasonably expect to have a fair shot at being the best physically, mentally and socially, and if you don't have those advantages, the Army might not want to know you. The package of measures suggested (this was just one of them) was to give a more open impression.

    I come from an Army family on my dad's side - my cousin Anthony was Deputy Chief of Staff - and I think they do produce excellent performance from the pool of recruits that they get (and Anthony was always hostile to conscription in peacetime - "just as you've trained them up, they leave, what's the point?"), but widening the pool is a good idea and politicians should hesitate before scoring pointsoff them for trying.
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,576

    Essexit said:

    Excellent stuff Ms Cyclefree.

    Though I wonder if Jared O'Mara might have got an award - the Magic Money Tree Award for Getting Something for Nothing perhaps, as he continues to claim his MP's salary and not turn up.

    That is par for the course for politicians. Quite a few just collect their salaries, but rarely if ever turn up. Gordon Brown did for the 2010 parliament, Farage is famously innattentive, SF never show and for a year the Stormont assembly have picked up their pay but done no work.

    If the people vote for them, then they get their dosh no matter what a waste of space they are.
    Nah, those are all unique cases - 99% of politicians do turn up consistently and are deselected at the first opportunity if they don't, unless there's a very good reason (usually health). Brown was (rightly) afraid that every facial expression would be interpreted as a comment on his successor, like Heath - he should have gone to the Lords. Farage and SF would both say they were elected with a mandate to treat the institutions with indifference. And as Stormont isn't sitting, the members can't actually turn up no matter how much they want to! But they also ccan't take another job since it may start sitting at any time.
    That's why I proposed O'Mara, he must be an exceptional case. He's the only MP who took their seat in June 2017 to have not made a maiden speech, and that was before the scandal broke. I think he considered himself a paper candidate and would rather be running his nightclub.
  • Charles said:

    Farage and Godfrey Bloom confirming UKIP are the BNP in blazers is really troubling.

    Time to proscribe UKIP like we do with Combat 18,

    Don't you like political parties that disagree with you?

    UKIP is deeply unpleasant, as is the BNP, but neither should be proscribed. Combat 18's leadership have been directly implicated in violence and, in some cases, murder.
    he'll be banning buses next
    TSE really is a poor little snowflake who needs his safe space where the real world can't intrude.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 1,489
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Oh and a very good thread header.

    I was trying to think of some more positive awards for politicians.

    Possibly the Lazarus award for Ruth Davidson (part 2) in reviving the moribund Scottish Tories.

    The human decency award to Doug Jones and the people of Alabama (just).

    The say the right thing award to Sajid Javid in the aftermath of Grenfell Tower.

    Best performance at a rock festival to Jeremy Corbyn?

    Most incompetent mishandling of a much-needed sacking - Carwyn Jones for dismissing Carl Sergeant not because of his dreadful record in mismanaging local government but for unspecified allegations that the Labour Party appears to have since decided have no basis in fact, making his suicide all the more tragic?
    Carwyn Jones strikes me as a decent sort. Not particularly competent but decent. Which makes his handling of this with a long time friend and colleague all the more bewildering. Maybe Carl Sergeant needs a posthumous award for reminding us that even politicians are human.
    A reasonable assessment. Carwyn is decent, but not competent, nor brave nor inspiring. He has presided over a serious decline in Wales, so that Welsh educational services or health services or economic performance are the worst of the four nations.

    In any normal country, he would be facing the wrath of a disgruntled electorate.

    Unfortunately, the Welsh Tory leader is a buffoon. Plaid Cymru -- despite being presented with a text-book example of how to dethrone an entrenched Labour party -- have failed to understand the lesson of Scotland. The sole LibDem in the Assembly has been handed a poisoned chalice and drunk deeply of it. And finally, we have Neil Mostyn Hamilton in charge of UKIP.

    And, despite this litany of failure & disgrace, the main thrust of the Welsh Assembly right now is to increase the number of AMs from 60 to 100.

    From where we are, Wales probably needs a Macron-like candidate to make a new party to carry out some of the necessary changes.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 8,132
    edited December 2017
    kle4 said:

    Test post....to see if I am banned after my comments on the shit show that is the new Star Wars movie.

    I believe in freedom of speech, so you shouldn't be banned, despite such a crazy and aberrant view tempting me to call for a mob.
    It was a thrilling visual spectacle.

    Just a pity about the rehashed plot and the banality of the script. It reminded me somewhat of Tomorrow Never Dies.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Essexit said:

    Excellent stuff Ms Cyclefree.

    Though I wonder if Jared O'Mara might have got an award - the Magic Money Tree Award for Getting Something for Nothing perhaps, as he continues to claim his MP's salary and not turn up.

    That is par for the course for politicians. Quite a few just collect their salaries, but rarely if ever turn up. Gordon Brown did for the 2010 parliament, Farage is famously innattentive, SF never show and for a year the Stormont assembly have picked up their pay but done no work.

    If the people vote for them, then they get their dosh no matter what a waste of space they are.
    Nah, those are all unique cases - 99% of politicians do turn up consistently and are deselected at the first opportunity if they don't, unless there's a very good reason (usually health). Brown was (rightly) afraid that every facial expression would be interpreted as a comment on his successor, like Heath - he should have gone to the Lords. Farage and SF would both say they were elected with a mandate to treat the institutions with indifference. And as Stormont isn't sitting, the members can't actually turn up no matter how much they want to! But they also ccan't take another job since it may start sitting at any time.
    There is no obligation to be decent and industrious, and all parties are too tolerant of their idle wasters. Just for once, I would like to see a whip withdrawn or a reselection arranged by a party for idleness or incompetence rather than some gaffe or rebellion. By their nature rebels do turn up, debate and revolt!

    I accept that most politicians are industrious, but the parties are too slack and indulgent of thosecwho are not.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 28,039

    To offer a probably unpopular rationale for why the marketing people will have told the Army to change - "Be the Best" ties in with quite a few other things about the Army's image to give the impression of a traditionalist establishment body in which, coming from an excellent school with private tutors and extensive sporting holidays, you can reasonably expect to have a fair shot at being the best physically, mentally and socially, and if you don't have those advantages, the Army might not want to know you. The package of measures suggested (this was just one of them) was to give a more open impression.

    I come from an Army family on my dad's side - my cousin Anthony was Deputy Chief of Staff - and I think they do produce excellent performance from the pool of recruits that they get (and Anthony was always hostile to conscription in peacetime - "just as you've trained them up, they leave, what's the point?"), but widening the pool is a good idea and politicians should hesitate before scoring pointsoff them for trying.

    If the first was the case then the army woukd always have struggled. But Maybe it's no longer as effective and needs an update, the idea should not be dis missed out of hand...however that's really the big problem they have? Changing the slogan but not other factors which hit recruitment will work, really? Of cours, you mention a package of measures, so are we to believe if substantive measures are put in place a slogan of all things will scupper that if not changed?

    It's not impossible, but I think derision at the idea of the decision from Williamson woukd be unfair, even if indeed he did not weigh up all considerations before making the call.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 8,726

    We must surely give the St Jude Award for Sustaining the Hopeless and the Despaired to our own Alastair Meeks for his work on behalf of distressed Remainers.

    And the comical Ali 'I see no tanks' award to Mr Glenn of this parish?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,511

    I haven't noticed much coverage of the positive polling that Emmanuel Macron has been getting recently. I saw an awful lot of comments when he made an initially hesitant start. No doubt those who had been concerned on his behalf have just been enjoying the Christmas break:




    Given Macron was elected with 66% of the vote an approval rating of 52% is not that great for him.

    Though I think his main challenge for re election will not come from the centre right or far right but the old Left led by Melenchon who are the biggest challenge to his Blairite agenda for France
  • Charles said:

    Farage and Godfrey Bloom confirming UKIP are the BNP in blazers is really troubling.

    Time to proscribe UKIP like we do with Combat 18,

    Don't you like political parties that disagree with you?

    UKIP is deeply unpleasant, as is the BNP, but neither should be proscribed. Combat 18's leadership have been directly implicated in violence and, in some cases, murder.
    he'll be banning buses next
    TSE really is a poor little snowflake who needs his safe space where the real world can't intrude.
    All the snowflakes on pb are Leavers who can't handle firm opposing views being expressed with force. (NB you are not included in this number)
  • HYUFD said:

    I haven't noticed much coverage of the positive polling that Emmanuel Macron has been getting recently. I saw an awful lot of comments when he made an initially hesitant start. No doubt those who had been concerned on his behalf have just been enjoying the Christmas break:




    Given Macron was elected with 66% of the vote an approval rating of 52% is not that great for him.

    Though I think his main challenge for re election will not come from the centre right or far right but the old Left led by Melenchon who are the biggest challenge to his Blairite agenda for France
    As you well know, the first round scores are a better baseline of positive support. Particularly when up against such a marmite candidate in the run-off.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,511

    HYUFD said:

    I haven't noticed much coverage of the positive polling that Emmanuel Macron has been getting recently. I saw an awful lot of comments when he made an initially hesitant start. No doubt those who had been concerned on his behalf have just been enjoying the Christmas break:




    Given Macron was elected with 66% of the vote an approval rating of 52% is not that great for him.

    Though I think his main challenge for re election will not come from the centre right or far right but the old Left led by Melenchon who are the biggest challenge to his Blairite agenda for France
    As you well know, the first round scores are a better baseline of positive support. Particularly when up against such a marmite candidate in the run-off.
    On that basis Melenchon and Hamon combined got 25% in the first round, more than the 24% Macron got
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    To offer a probably unpopular rationale for why the marketing people will have told the Army to change - "Be the Best" ties in with quite a few other things about the Army's image to give the impression of a traditionalist establishment body in which, coming from an excellent school with private tutors and extensive sporting holidays, you can reasonably expect to have a fair shot at being the best physically, mentally and socially, and if you don't have those advantages, the Army might not want to know you. The package of measures suggested (this was just one of them) was to give a more open impression.

    I come from an Army family on my dad's side - my cousin Anthony was Deputy Chief of Staff - and I think they do produce excellent performance from the pool of recruits that they get (and Anthony was always hostile to conscription in peacetime - "just as you've trained them up, they leave, what's the point?"), but widening the pool is a good idea and politicians should hesitate before scoring pointsoff them for trying.

    The recruiters need to consider why anyone would want to join the forces. Unemployment remains low, even in post industrial Britain, pay is in the doldrums, housing inadequate, and promotion restricted in an organisation whose capabilities and possibilities contract with each new budget round.

    Perhaps most significantly, there is little possibility of action, and what actions are likely in the future. There is not the same drive to fight when the people we fight alongside (the European mainland) are being made out to be our enemies.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 30,933
    I see the Christmas truce is well and truly over :D
  • RobD said:

    I see the Christmas truce is well and truly over :D

    Brexiters and Remainers celebrate Christmas truce with football match which then goes horribly wrong

    BREXITERS and remainers set aside their differences yesterday for a festive football match which then descended into a foul mouthed argument.

    The two teams emerged from behind their computer screens around midday to shake hands and sing carols before the friendly kick about.

    Remainer Tom Logan said: “The tweets and the Facebook posts fell silent. We climbed out of our entrenched views, looked into the face of the enemy and realised that they are just like us after all.

    “But then there was a disputed free kick and one of the Brexiters called me a ‘remoaner’ and I said that the very fact that Brexiters invented the word ‘remoaner’ proves what complete fucking imbeciles they really are.

    “Then the Brexiter said that half of our team probably wasn’t even British and I called him a fat, Nazi bastard.”

    All 22 players then scurried back home to their laptops to continue insulting each other.


    http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/war/brexiters-and-remainers-celebrate-christmas-truce-with-football-match-which-then-goes-horribly-wrong-20171223141356
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,112

    To offer a probably unpopular rationale for why the marketing people will have told the Army to change - "Be the Best" ties in with quite a few other things about the Army's image to give the impression of a traditionalist establishment body in which, coming from an excellent school with private tutors and extensive sporting holidays, you can reasonably expect to have a fair shot at being the best physically, mentally and socially, and if you don't have those advantages, the Army might not want to know you. The package of measures suggested (this was just one of them) was to give a more open impression.

    I come from an Army family on my dad's side - my cousin Anthony was Deputy Chief of Staff - and I think they do produce excellent performance from the pool of recruits that they get (and Anthony was always hostile to conscription in peacetime - "just as you've trained them up, they leave, what's the point?"), but widening the pool is a good idea and politicians should hesitate before scoring pointsoff them for trying.

    A fair point. But surely the way to change that is to reach out to state schools etc not change a slogan. After all, there is no reason why someone who does not come from the sort of background you describe should not be physically fit or mentally able to cope etc.

    Given an open impression is not the same - or should not be the same - as suggesting that being second-rate or mediocre is good enough. Everyone should aim high. “You too can be the best.”

    Perhaps they could get soldiers who come from a less traditional background to go out and speak to possible recruits. Role models are more effective than slogans.

    But, IMO, there is too much willingness to accept the second-rate and lower standards in an attempt to widen access. The two need not be in conflict. The aim should be to get the best people from wherever not just a limited pool. I agree on that. But it should not be at the expense of lowering standards, expectations or effectiveness.
  • Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Oh and a very good thread header.

    I was trying to think of some more positive awards for politicians.

    Possibly the Lazarus award for Ruth Davidson (part 2) in reviving the moribund Scottish Tories.

    The human decency award to Doug Jones and the people of Alabama (just).

    The say the right thing award to Sajid Javid in the aftermath of Grenfell Tower.

    Best performance at a rock festival to Jeremy Corbyn?

    Oh, the Shackleton Award for Survival Against The Odds has to go to the Prime Minister, no?
    Shackleton was an exceptional organiser and a fine leader.....
    Perhaps a slight modification to that award might be in order ?
    Shacklton set off to cross the Antarctic.
  • We must surely give the St Jude Award for Sustaining the Hopeless and the Despaired to our own Alastair Meeks for his work on behalf of distressed Remainers.

    Should that not be the Chappers award for stress and self-denial?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 3,239
    Cyclefree said:

    Thanks for the comments.

    I’m a touch sceptical of marketing gurus. I’d have though that poor pay and poor housing might be greater deterrents to recruitment than a motto.
    .

    The whole thing seemed to me to be another contrived and leaked row to garner Gavin Williamson some good PR.

    As the independent somewhat wryly noted - his other actions have included intervening to stop two military dogs being put down and that row with Hammond over plane costs. He’s definitely on manoeuvres.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,908

    RobD said:

    I see the Christmas truce is well and truly over :D

    Brexiters and Remainers celebrate Christmas truce with football match which then goes horribly wrong

    BREXITERS and remainers set aside their differences yesterday for a festive football match which then descended into a foul mouthed argument.

    The two teams emerged from behind their computer screens around midday to shake hands and sing carols before the friendly kick about.

    Remainer Tom Logan said: “The tweets and the Facebook posts fell silent. We climbed out of our entrenched views, looked into the face of the enemy and realised that they are just like us after all.

    “But then there was a disputed free kick and one of the Brexiters called me a ‘remoaner’ and I said that the very fact that Brexiters invented the word ‘remoaner’ proves what complete fucking imbeciles they really are.

    “Then the Brexiter said that half of our team probably wasn’t even British and I called him a fat, Nazi bastard.”

    All 22 players then scurried back home to their laptops to continue insulting each other.


    http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/war/brexiters-and-remainers-celebrate-christmas-truce-with-football-match-which-then-goes-horribly-wrong-20171223141356
    Sometimes the Daily Mash is just spot on.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 8,132
    edited December 2017
    One of the things I do admire about the Labour left - and I think it is known on this forum that I am not their greatest fan (!) is their commitment. Until fairly recently Dennis Skinner, for example, had the best attendance of any MP in the Commons, because he genuinely believes that as an MP it is his duty to be present representing his constituents. This seems to have dipped recently, down to 83%, but given he is now 85 that is perhaps understandable. Corbyn has also I believe always been assiduous in parliamentary duties. It is further worth noting that both of these also had very low expenses claims - Corbyn is off course fairly well-off and a London MP, but neither point applies to Skinner. As a teacher, if I can stand, I go in. I have not taken a single day's absence since qualifying. While my job is tough, so is an MP's, so I have respect for those who treat their job with that level of professionalism especially since, unlike me, it doesn't cause chaos if they take a day off to recuperate.

    It is therefore doubly disappointing to see the likes of Jared O'Mara treating his voters with utter contempt, or Emma Dent Coad speaking more or less only outside the Commons and having a poor attendance record despite living so close by, or Laura Pidcock deciding to miss a crucial vote on a welfare matter she claimed was close to her heart because it was her thirtieth birthday and she and her boyfriend decided to go to Italy for a week. (I worked right through my thirtieth birthday and for several weeks afterwards for literally a fraction of her pay. So do most people in low paid jobs. Her excuse was ridiculous and she shouldn't even have bothered to give it because she merely looked even smugger than usual.)

    One reason why I expect Corbynism to burn out post-Corbyn is because even allowing for his faults the next generation of lefties are truly pathetic and not worth the effort of voting for (OK, I know Coad is old but O'Mara, Pidcock, Smith, Long-Bailey - they are young). Not, it should be said, that the other parties are better.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 9,827
    Cyclefree said:



    A fair point. But surely the way to change that is to reach out to state schools etc not change a slogan. After all, there is no reason why someone who does not come from the sort of background you describe should not be physically fit or mentally able to cope etc.

    Given an open impression is not the same - or should not be the same - as suggesting that being second-rate or mediocre is good enough. Everyone should aim high. “You too can be the best.”

    Perhaps they could get soldiers who come from a less traditional background to go out and speak to possible recruits. Role models are more effective than slogans.

    But, IMO, there is too much willingness to accept the second-rate and lower standards in an attempt to widen access. The two need not be in conflict. The aim should be to get the best people from wherever not just a limited pool. I agree on that. But it should not be at the expense of lowering standards, expectations or effectiveness.

    Yes, I agree, and I think (but can't remember in detail) that some of the other suggestions were more in that light. "Be Better" as someone here suggested might get the flavour right - everyone can aim for that, and in reality the Army can choose the ones who it thinks will really be the best.

    It's not that you have to have had a privileged background to excel, just that they need to avoid the impression that everyone is excelling already so don't bother, mate. The best caseworker I ever had was a former assembly line worker who had been spending years fitting mirrors on cars - scrupulous, tactful, realistic, resourceful and incredibly hard-working, he absolutely blossomed in the job, but he was originally surprised I asked him to do it as it was outside his expected range of possibilities (I'd seen him in action as a borough councillor).

    When I lost, he lost his job automatically (people who are sorry for MPs who lose should give a thought to their staff, who get shoved out at a month's notice), and phlegmatically went to work in a shop, where he quietly gives the same standard of service to customers.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 3,460
    Morning all :)

    I see the grumpy old sods on here are out and about early - so much for the Christmas spirit.

    I'll join in.

    I've spent my whole life listening to the "I never took a day off in 35 years working" brigade. Yes, you just came in, performed well under par and infected half your colleagues with whatever illness you were carrying.

    Perhaps that's our productivity issue in a nutshell - people report for work when manifestly unfit and incapable, spend the whole day telling everyone what martyrs they are and go home early. I do realise for many people no work means no pay and that can be a huge issue in terms of paying rent, eating and keeping warm.

    You hear them and see them on the Tube - full of cold or flu or worse but going to work because they have no choice. It's no surprise people are disillusioned with capitalism and want an alternative.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 18,207

    Charles said:

    Farage and Godfrey Bloom confirming UKIP are the BNP in blazers is really troubling.

    Time to proscribe UKIP like we do with Combat 18,

    Don't you like political parties that disagree with you?

    UKIP is deeply unpleasant, as is the BNP, but neither should be proscribed. Combat 18's leadership have been directly implicated in violence and, in some cases, murder.
    History has shown you need to nip these Jew baiting extremists in the bud before it escalates badly.
    I have more faith in the British public and our institutions than you do
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 18,207
    TOPPING said:

    "Be The Best" is apparently not reaching the recruits sought, and I can understand why. If you are currently not all that confident in yourself - like many young men and women - you might not be able to imagine being the best, even if you might be. The army should be considering Gregory the Great's advice: "he who would climb to a lofty height must go by steps, not leaps".

    I had a conversation with my PT some years ago about what motivates people to go to the gym and why people might get a personal trainer. PTs often imagine that what motivates them is what motivates their potential customers. But customers at the bottom of the hill can't imagine committing to the kind of regime required and will not pick a trainer who has what they consider unrealistic or unattainable expectations of them. "Best" is unattainable for many, but "Better" is something we can all feel we can aim for, whatever "Better" might mean for each of us. He has "Be Better" on the back of his business cards and he does very good business indeed.

    Whatever Britain’s position in the world (both perceived and real) its armed forces should consist of the best candidates possible.

    Whatever conflict comes next (and, as Frank Kitson noted, it will be an unforeseen one) we need to face it as best prepared as possible.

    And if that means with soldiers who were attracted to the idea of being, and have tried to be the best, then so much the better.
    And if the marketing strategy isn't working then you should carry on anyway?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 8,132
    edited December 2017
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I see the grumpy old sods on here are out and about early - so much for the Christmas spirit.

    I'll join in.

    I've spent my whole life listening to the "I never took a day off in 35 years working" brigade. Yes, you just came in, performed well under par and infected half your colleagues with whatever illness you were carrying.

    Perhaps that's our productivity issue in a nutshell - people report for work when manifestly unfit and incapable, spend the whole day telling everyone what martyrs they are and go home early. I do realise for many people no work means no pay and that can be a huge issue in terms of paying rent, eating and keeping warm.

    You hear them and see them on the Tube - full of cold or flu or worse but going to work because they have no choice. It's no surprise people are disillusioned with capitalism and want an alternative.

    I have never gone home early either.

    And the one time I seriously considered taking time off I went in anyway because all my colleagues had been ill and if I hadn't gone in there would have been nobody to set cover.

    Edit - in terms of teaching, oddly, taking days off also usually means extra work later to sort out the tangle created. So you do get more productivity going in unless you are absolutely unable to.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 18,207
    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    "Be The Best" is apparently not reaching the recruits sought, and I can understand why.

    I had a conversation with my PT some years ago about what motivates people to go to the gym and why people might get a personal trainer. PTs often imagine that what motivates them is what motivates their potential customers. But customers at the bottom of the hill can't imagine committing to the kind of regime required and will not pick a trainer who has what they consider unrealistic or unattainable expectations of them. "Best" is unattainable for many, but "Better" is something we can all feel we can aim for, whatever "Better" might mean for each of us. He has "Be Better" on the back of his business cards and he does very good business indeed.

    I agree. This is shabby and unworthy by Williamson.

    If the military commanders, presumably guided by data from their marketing department believe that a new slogan would be more effective in achieving their objectives it's not for a mere politician to overrule them
    I disagree I have to say. Slogans are vapid and pointless things and hardly something specialised and technical that one needs to defer to the military expertise about. Marketers might say it's a problem, but marketing will say anything. Odds are if the problem is not enough people want to join the army it's because it looks unappealing to most people, and changing the slogan is exactly the kind of meaningless change someone comes up with to try to turn things around without actually addressing the root cause of the issue. Also because it should cost almost nothing. (Half a million is nothing for the people who waste billions long defence procurement - and still a stupid waste of money). I don't even know what the slogan of the RAF is, is that marketing failure a problem too?

    Now, I don't mind if they do change it, but I really struggle to see the outrage here - it's precisely the sort of thing a politician can weigh in on without too much worry, it's not US politicians ordering tanks the army don't want as it creates jobs in their districts. Certainly calling it shabby seems unfair on Williamson, be if the right or wrong decision.

    The logical endpoint would be that everyone must do what market researchers tell them to do, no matter what, because who are any of us to say otherwise.

    Really not feeling the outrage at a politician daring to make such a minor call, and one geared around marketing at that.
    Which is exactly the problem.

    Politicians are respobsible for strategy and big picture stuff not for minor operational details.

    It's also because I know Williamson's type. He doesn't give a fig fir what's good for the army - just what the headline looks like
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 61,058
    edited December 2017
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Farage and Godfrey Bloom confirming UKIP are the BNP in blazers is really troubling.

    Time to proscribe UKIP like we do with Combat 18,

    Don't you like political parties that disagree with you?

    UKIP is deeply unpleasant, as is the BNP, but neither should be proscribed. Combat 18's leadership have been directly implicated in violence and, in some cases, murder.
    History has shown you need to nip these Jew baiting extremists in the bud before it escalates badly.
    I have more faith in the British public and our institutions than you do
    53% of the public like pineapple on pizza.

    That's a great big warning sign that they have faulty judgement.
This discussion has been closed.