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SystemSystem Posts: 5,841
edited December 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » This afternoon’s PB cartoon from Nicholas Leonard/Helen Cochrane

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  • Sors immanis et inanis[sp].
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 64,256
    edited December 2017

    Sors immanis et inanis[sp].

    Dorsum nudum fero tui sceleris has always made me giggle.
  • FPT:

    another_Richard and Mortimer are spot on re George Osborne. Osborne is liked among the circle of socially liberal centrists within the Westminster Village. As this demographic appears to make up a significant portion of political journalists in Westminster, at times it may appear that Osborne is more popular than he actually is in London.

    I also thought that TSE’s comments on people who go on buses was very snobbish and wrong. Such an outlook is hardly likely to appeal to many of the C2DEs who vote Tory, who may not all be travelling purely by tube or car, and certainly not to many younger voters especially those in cities - a lot of us do travel on public transport, and I am not ashamed to say so - whenever I’m in London I take buses and tubes.
  • Ms. Apocalypse, also worth noting not many people in Leeds take the tube. Or the tram.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 10,725

    FPT:

    another_Richard and Mortimer are spot on re George Osborne. Osborne is liked among the circle of socially liberal centrists within the Westminster Village. As this demographic appears to make up a significant portion of political journalists in Westminster, at times it may appear that Osborne is more popular than he actually is in London.

    I also thought that TSE’s comments on people who go on buses was very snobbish and wrong. Such an outlook is hardly likely to appeal to many of the C2DEs who vote Tory, who may not all be travelling purely by tube or car, and certainly not to many younger voters especially those in cities - a lot of us do travel on public transport, and I am not ashamed to say so - whenever I’m in London I take buses and tubes.

    Given that OAPs get free bus travel and in London and Manchester and possibly elsewhere other forms of public transport being snobbish about the use of public transport is, in political terms very silly indeed.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 4,413
    edited December 2017

    FPT:

    another_Richard and Mortimer are spot on re George Osborne. Osborne is liked among the circle of socially liberal centrists within the Westminster Village. As this demographic appears to make up a significant portion of political journalists in Westminster, at times it may appear that Osborne is more popular than he actually is in London.

    I also thought that TSE’s comments on people who go on buses was very snobbish and wrong. Such an outlook is hardly likely to appeal to many of the C2DEs who vote Tory, who may not all be travelling purely by tube or car, and certainly not to many younger voters especially those in cities - a lot of us do travel on public transport, and I am not ashamed to say so - whenever I’m in London I take buses and tubes.

    Thanks to the generosity of that nice Mr Brown 2007 I always travel by bus in London paid for, of course, by the taxpayer. It's actually, once you get to know the routes, a remarkably speedy and convenient way of getting around. The joy of Brown's pre general election bribe to pensioners is that it costs absolutely nothing wherever you live in England
  • I miss Marf. Her cartoons were funny.
  • Sors immanis et inanis[sp].

    Dorsum nudum fero tui sceleris has always made me giggle.
    But as Mike and I know only too well:

    'Verum est quod legitur
    Fronte capillata
    Sed plerumque sequitur
    Occasio calvata'

    :(
  • @Morris_Dancer I forgot that we even had trams in this country tbh.

    @OldKingCole Exactly! And many of those OAPs will undoubtedly be Conservative voters. My grandparents generally get around via public transport, and they’ve done pretty well in their lives. They also share the same political affiliation with TSE.

    @MikeSmithson I agree that it’s a great way to get around. Especially in London - having lived in Watford for sometime now, I’ve actually come to appreciate London transport! In contrast with Watford buses, buses in London generally arrive at a reasonable time, and bus stops are pretty much everywhere there, so it’s easy to get around. I generally love travelling by tube more than any other form of transport, but in parts of London - especially central London - if you’re going to get anywhere, you generally have to take bus. Among my family and friends not many of them could imagine driving into central London and tubes at times can only take you so far....
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 2,994

    Ms. Apocalypse, also worth noting not many people in Leeds take the tube. Or the tram.

    Morris , I went from York the other day to London to see my daughter .Went with Grand Central .Direct from York train station to Kings Cross 1 hour 58 mins.I believe the house prices near York station have gone up so much due to some living in York and now working in London.
  • Liverpool are now going to win every match and competition henceforth.

    Liverpool agree world-record £75m deal for Virgil van Dijk

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/12/27/liverpool-agree-world-record-75m-deal-virgil-van-dijk/
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 495
    edited December 2017
    I think Theresa May's Government is a complete mess. Shame Labour has Corbyn as a leader due to his inability to nail the PM down once and for all into resigning. I don't recall him once saying she should resign for the political failures she has presided over. I think Corbyn needs a course in forensic cross examination, so he can brutally undermine her at the despatch box.

    Michael Heseltine is spot on with his analysis of Brexit, it is worse than a Labour government headed by Corbyn. My only reservation about Corbyn is on security and National Defence. This Tory Brexit is going to wreck the economy without a good deal with the EU. If the government negotiate a deal for free trade on goods (which the EU has a very healthy surplus against the UK) and does not get a free trade agreement on services then the UK will be in a very dark place economically. I cannot see the trade deals the EU has signed with over 70 third party countries being easily transferred to the UK either after Brexit, so the gale of economic discontent heading for the UK is going to be breath-taking in its ferocity and indiscriminate selection of victims.
  • FPT:

    another_Richard and Mortimer are spot on re George Osborne. Osborne is liked among the circle of socially liberal centrists within the Westminster Village. As this demographic appears to make up a significant portion of political journalists in Westminster, at times it may appear that Osborne is more popular than he actually is in London.

    I also thought that TSE’s comments on people who go on buses was very snobbish and wrong. Such an outlook is hardly likely to appeal to many of the C2DEs who vote Tory, who may not all be travelling purely by tube or car, and certainly not to many younger voters especially those in cities - a lot of us do travel on public transport, and I am not ashamed to say so - whenever I’m in London I take buses and tubes.

    C2s, Ds and Es will not be reading PB.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 1,593
    edited December 2017

    FPT:

    another_Richard and Mortimer are spot on re George Osborne. Osborne is liked among the circle of socially liberal centrists within the Westminster Village. As this demographic appears to make up a significant portion of political journalists in Westminster, at times it may appear that Osborne is more popular than he actually is in London.

    I also thought that TSE’s comments on people who go on buses was very snobbish and wrong. Such an outlook is hardly likely to appeal to many of the C2DEs who vote Tory, who may not all be travelling purely by tube or car, and certainly not to many younger voters especially those in cities - a lot of us do travel on public transport, and I am not ashamed to say so - whenever I’m in London I take buses and tubes.

    Thanks to the generosity of that nice Mr Brown 2007 I always travel by bus in London paid for, of course, by the taxpayer. It's actually, once you get to know the routes, a remarkably speedy and convenient way of getting around. The joy of Brown's pre general election bribe to pensioners is that it costs absolutely nothing wherever you live in England
    Is that right, though? There is a cost.

    It has certainly been (partially) blamed in rural Wales & England as one of the main causes of bus company bankruptcies. There have been a lot of these.

    http://www.bettertransport.org.uk/buses/blog/our-buses-are-crisis

    "The insanely unfair system of reimbursement for English National Concessionary Travel (ENCT) senior passes discriminates against rural bus operations, on which up to 80 per cent of passengers can be passholders. "

    Outside the South East and metropolitan areas, pensioners do have the right to free bus travel but no actual buses.

    Still, as long as the country works for rich old people in the South East, what could possibly be wrong?
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 2,994

    FPT:

    another_Richard and Mortimer are spot on re George Osborne. Osborne is liked among the circle of socially liberal centrists within the Westminster Village. As this demographic appears to make up a significant portion of political journalists in Westminster, at times it may appear that Osborne is more popular than he actually is in London.

    I also thought that TSE’s comments on people who go on buses was very snobbish and wrong. Such an outlook is hardly likely to appeal to many of the C2DEs who vote Tory, who may not all be travelling purely by tube or car, and certainly not to many younger voters especially those in cities - a lot of us do travel on public transport, and I am not ashamed to say so - whenever I’m in London I take buses and tubes.

    Thanks to the generosity of that nice Mr Brown 2007 I always travel by bus in London paid for, of course, by the taxpayer. It's actually, once you get to know the routes, a remarkably speedy and convenient way of getting around. The joy of Brown's pre general election bribe to pensioners is that it costs absolutely nothing wherever you live in England
    I believe you can get free travel in London at 60 , for the rest of England it is when you get your state pension so 66 67 ,68 or I guess never.
  • FPT:

    another_Richard and Mortimer are spot on re George Osborne. Osborne is liked among the circle of socially liberal centrists within the Westminster Village. As this demographic appears to make up a significant portion of political journalists in Westminster, at times it may appear that Osborne is more popular than he actually is in London.

    I also thought that TSE’s comments on people who go on buses was very snobbish and wrong. Such an outlook is hardly likely to appeal to many of the C2DEs who vote Tory, who may not all be travelling purely by tube or car, and certainly not to many younger voters especially those in cities - a lot of us do travel on public transport, and I am not ashamed to say so - whenever I’m in London I take buses and tubes.

    Thanks to the generosity of that nice Mr Brown 2007 I always travel by bus in London paid for, of course, by the taxpayer. It's actually, once you get to know the routes, a remarkably speedy and convenient way of getting around. The joy of Brown's pre general election bribe to pensioners is that it costs absolutely nothing wherever you live in England
    The Tories looking after their client vote?

    Oh wait....
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,131

    FPT:

    another_Richard and Mortimer are spot on re George Osborne. Osborne is liked among the circle of socially liberal centrists within the Westminster Village. As this demographic appears to make up a significant portion of political journalists in Westminster, at times it may appear that Osborne is more popular than he actually is in London.

    I also thought that TSE’s comments on people who go on buses was very snobbish and wrong. Such an outlook is hardly likely to appeal to many of the C2DEs who vote Tory, who may not all be travelling purely by tube or car, and certainly not to many younger voters especially those in cities - a lot of us do travel on public transport, and I am not ashamed to say so - whenever I’m in London I take buses and tubes.

    I think this may be the first (and second) time that I've agreed with you.

    We'll make a PB Tory of you yet :wink:
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,214

    FPT:

    another_Richard and Mortimer are spot on re George Osborne. Osborne is liked among the circle of socially liberal centrists within the Westminster Village. As this demographic appears to make up a significant portion of political journalists in Westminster, at times it may appear that Osborne is more popular than he actually is in London.

    I also thought that TSE’s comments on people who go on buses was very snobbish and wrong. Such an outlook is hardly likely to appeal to many of the C2DEs who vote Tory, who may not all be travelling purely by tube or car, and certainly not to many younger voters especially those in cities - a lot of us do travel on public transport, and I am not ashamed to say so - whenever I’m in London I take buses and tubes.

    Agreed on Ozzie. TSE is often provocative for the sake of it.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,131
    edited December 2017

    I think Theresa May's Government is a complete mess. Shame Labour has Corbyn as a leader due to his inability to nail the PM down once and for all into resigning. I don't recall him once saying she should resign for the political failures she has presided over. I think Corbyn needs a course in forensic cross examination, so he can brutally undermine her at the despatch box.

    Michael Heseltine is spot on with his analysis of Brexit, it is worse than a Labour government headed by Corbyn. My only reservation about Corbyn is on security and National Defence. This Tory Brexit is going to wreck the economy without a good deal with the EU. If the government negotiate a deal for free trade on goods (which the EU has a very healthy surplus against the UK) and does not get a free trade agreement on services then the UK will be in a very dark place economically. I cannot see the trade deals the EU has signed with over 70 third party countries being easily transferred to the UK either after Brexit, so the gale of economic discontent heading for the UK is going to be breath-taking in its ferocity and indiscriminate selection of victims.

    The voice of the people can not be, will not be, and must not be denied
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 6,746
    edited December 2017
    After seeing Nadine Dorries tweet, now I know why IntellectualPanto is trending.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 2,639

    Ms. Apocalypse, also worth noting not many people in Leeds take the tube. Or the tram.

    Driving around Leeds would be enough to make Jeremy Clarkson get a bus pass
  • kjhkjh Posts: 199

    FPT:

    another_Richard and Mortimer are spot on re George Osborne. Osborne is liked among the circle of socially liberal centrists within the Westminster Village. As this demographic appears to make up a significant portion of political journalists in Westminster, at times it may appear that Osborne is more popular than he actually is in London.

    I also thought that TSE’s comments on people who go on buses was very snobbish and wrong. Such an outlook is hardly likely to appeal to many of the C2DEs who vote Tory, who may not all be travelling purely by tube or car, and certainly not to many younger voters especially those in cities - a lot of us do travel on public transport, and I am not ashamed to say so - whenever I’m in London I take buses and tubes.

    Thanks to the generosity of that nice Mr Brown 2007 I always travel by bus in London paid for, of course, by the taxpayer. It's actually, once you get to know the routes, a remarkably speedy and convenient way of getting around. The joy of Brown's pre general election bribe to pensioners is that it costs absolutely nothing wherever you live in England
    Is that right, though? There is a cost.

    It has certainly been (partially) blamed in rural Wales & England as one of the main causes of bus company bankruptcies. There have been a lot of these.

    http://www.bettertransport.org.uk/buses/blog/our-buses-are-crisis

    "The insanely unfair system of reimbursement for English National Concessionary Travel (ENCT) senior passes discriminates against rural bus operations, on which up to 80 per cent of passengers can be passholders. "

    Outside the South East and metropolitan areas, pensioners do have the right to free bus travel but no actual buses.

    Still, as long as the country works for rich old people in the South East, what could possibly be wrong?
    You think we have buses in the South East?
  • Freggles said:

    Ms. Apocalypse, also worth noting not many people in Leeds take the tube. Or the tram.

    Driving around Leeds would be enough to make Jeremy Clarkson get a bus pass
    Nah, I did it for six years.

    The M621 was a particular favourite.

    Also where the M1/M62/A1 meet is great fun.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 2,025

    Liverpool are now going to win every match and competition henceforth.

    Liverpool agree world-record £75m deal for Virgil van Dijk

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/12/27/liverpool-agree-world-record-75m-deal-virgil-van-dijk/

    Are you predicting it will be your year? Heaven forfend. Parking the bus is for peasants.
  • @YBardd

    "Still, as long as the country works for rich old people in the South East, what could possibly be wrong?"

    Absolutely nothing, YBardd, absolutely nothing at all.

    :)
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 17,778
    Charles said:

    I think Theresa May's Government is a complete mess. Shame Labour has Corbyn as a leader due to his inability to nail the PM down once and for all into resigning. I don't recall him once saying she should resign for the political failures she has presided over. I think Corbyn needs a course in forensic cross examination, so he can brutally undermine her at the despatch box.

    Michael Heseltine is spot on with his analysis of Brexit, it is worse than a Labour government headed by Corbyn. My only reservation about Corbyn is on security and National Defence. This Tory Brexit is going to wreck the economy without a good deal with the EU. If the government negotiate a deal for free trade on goods (which the EU has a very healthy surplus against the UK) and does not get a free trade agreement on services then the UK will be in a very dark place economically. I cannot see the trade deals the EU has signed with over 70 third party countries being easily transferred to the UK either after Brexit, so the gale of economic discontent heading for the UK is going to be breath-taking in its ferocity and indiscriminate selection of victims.

    The voice of the people can not be, will not be, and must not be denied
    The voice of the people of 2019 can not be, will not be, and must not be denied by the people of 2016. If it were, we would no longer be living in a democracy.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 2,994
    Charles said:

    I think Theresa May's Government is a complete mess. Shame Labour has Corbyn as a leader due to his inability to nail the PM down once and for all into resigning. I don't recall him once saying she should resign for the political failures she has presided over. I think Corbyn needs a course in forensic cross examination, so he can brutally undermine her at the despatch box.

    Michael Heseltine is spot on with his analysis of Brexit, it is worse than a Labour government headed by Corbyn. My only reservation about Corbyn is on security and National Defence. This Tory Brexit is going to wreck the economy without a good deal with the EU. If the government negotiate a deal for free trade on goods (which the EU has a very healthy surplus against the UK) and does not get a free trade agreement on services then the UK will be in a very dark place economically. I cannot see the trade deals the EU has signed with over 70 third party countries being easily transferred to the UK either after Brexit, so the gale of economic discontent heading for the UK is going to be breath-taking in its ferocity and indiscriminate selection of victims.

    The voice of the people can not be, will not be, and must not be denied
    Shame we might never know on some issues as the Government admits ' losing ' thousands of papers from national archives.https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/26/government-admits-losing-thousands-of-papers-from-national-archives
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 64,256
    edited December 2017
    dixiedean said:

    Liverpool are now going to win every match and competition henceforth.

    Liverpool agree world-record £75m deal for Virgil van Dijk

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/12/27/liverpool-agree-world-record-75m-deal-virgil-van-dijk/

    Are you predicting it will be your year? Heaven forfend. Parking the bus is for peasants.
    Not until we sign a decent keeper.

    Market's gone crazy.

    In 2013 the keeper that kept Sunderland up was sold for £9 million.

    In 2017 the keeper that got Sunderland relegated was sold for £30 million.

    PS - Seen this?



  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 2,994
    Charles said:

    FPT:

    another_Richard and Mortimer are spot on re George Osborne. Osborne is liked among the circle of socially liberal centrists within the Westminster Village. As this demographic appears to make up a significant portion of political journalists in Westminster, at times it may appear that Osborne is more popular than he actually is in London.

    I also thought that TSE’s comments on people who go on buses was very snobbish and wrong. Such an outlook is hardly likely to appeal to many of the C2DEs who vote Tory, who may not all be travelling purely by tube or car, and certainly not to many younger voters especially those in cities - a lot of us do travel on public transport, and I am not ashamed to say so - whenever I’m in London I take buses and tubes.

    I think this may be the first (and second) time that I've agreed with you.

    We'll make a PB Tory of you yet :wink:
    I think you are well on your way already .
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 495
    edited December 2017
    Charles said:

    I think Theresa May's Government is a complete mess. Shame Labour has Corbyn as a leader due to his inability to nail the PM down once and for all into resigning. I don't recall him once saying she should resign for the political failures she has presided over. I think Corbyn needs a course in forensic cross examination, so he can brutally undermine her at the despatch box.

    Michael Heseltine is spot on with his analysis of Brexit, it is worse than a Labour government headed by Corbyn. My only reservation about Corbyn is on security and National Defence. This Tory Brexit is going to wreck the economy without a good deal with the EU. If the government negotiate a deal for free trade on goods (which the EU has a very healthy surplus against the UK) and does not get a free trade agreement on services then the UK will be in a very dark place economically. I cannot see the trade deals the EU has signed with over 70 third party countries being easily transferred to the UK either after Brexit, so the gale of economic discontent heading for the UK is going to be breath-taking in its ferocity and indiscriminate selection of victims.

    The voice of the people can not be, will not be, and must not be denied
    That is easy to say if it does not affect you or people within your social circle. If there is a change in government then as they are elected, the mandate will supersede previous government mandates as it always does. It will also mean a different position can be taken with regard to Brexit.

    The 2016 referendum mandate will be as meaningless as the 1975 one was in 2016 further down the track. I simply do not understand why people get so hung up on the 2016 result if to use Boris Johnsons phrase "we cannot have our cake and eat it", indeed people of his ilk are negotiating so if they get a rubbish deal why on earth would you commit to leaving under every circumstance? Boris I seem to remember thought you could vote Leave, renegotiate and then stay in or does what he said not count?

    Cameron really let himself down in setting that referendum as a pledge in his 2015 manifesto. It was a terribly divisive thing to pledge and indeed has exposed a huge flank in the conservative parties reputation for competence, economic security and free trade.
  • Mr. Freggles, tremble before the one-way system of Leeds!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 2,025

    dixiedean said:

    Liverpool are now going to win every match and competition henceforth.

    Liverpool agree world-record £75m deal for Virgil van Dijk

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/12/27/liverpool-agree-world-record-75m-deal-virgil-van-dijk/

    Are you predicting it will be your year? Heaven forfend. Parking the bus is for peasants.
    Not until we sign a decent keeper.

    Market's gone crazy.

    In 2013 the keeper that kept Sunderland up was sold for £9 million.

    In 2017 the keeper that got Sunderland relegated was sold for £30 million.

    PS - Seen this?



    That would be cos one keeper is decent. The other, by your own admission, is not.
    Tat is by definition tat. Whether it is on an Everton website or in your goal.
  • Who needs 4-day tests...

    South Africa raced to victory in the inaugural four-day Test against Zimbabwe, taking 16 wickets on day two to win by an innings and 120 runs.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/42496474
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 2,639
    edited December 2017

    Freggles said:

    Ms. Apocalypse, also worth noting not many people in Leeds take the tube. Or the tram.

    Driving around Leeds would be enough to make Jeremy Clarkson get a bus pass
    Nah, I did it for six years.
    That explains a lot!

    The M621 was a particular favourite.

    Also where the M1/M62/A1 meet is great fun.

    Do I turn left or stay on the ring road AAAAND I'm in a pile of taxis.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,688
    Re Corbyn as a constituency MP: it was Andrew Lansley who said that he was a very good one and had helped his (ie Lansley’s) wife over some issue she had.

    Whatever his other failings I think he takes his constituency duties seriously and this is to his credit.
  • Star Wars fans return to Imax showing after 'false alarm' led to evacuation of London's Science Museum

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5215683/Star-Wars-showing-Science-Museum-Imax-evacuated.html

    Oh well...they wouldn't have missed much even if they couldn't have returned.
  • Oh god...one look at that interior decor and he clearly wants to be Donald Trump.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-5214983/Inside-Dave-Sullivan-Jrs-lavish-London-bachelor-pad.html
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 27,371
    edited December 2017
    Labour voters could abandon party over Brexit stance, poll finds

    Labour is coming under pressure from leading pro-remain campaigners to clarify its stance on Brexit, after polling showed that a quarter of its current voters could switch party by the next election and more than half would oppose Labour backing Brexit.

    The poll of people planning to vote Labour – conducted by YouGov for the Best of Britain campaign group – found 24% said they may change their minds before the next election, and two-thirds of those who voted remain would be disappointed or angry if Labour says it will proceed with Brexit.

    The poll also found many Labour voters have opposing perceptions about the party’s current stance on Brexit. It found 32% of Labour remain voters believe Labour is “completely against Brexit” and a further 31% of Labour leave voters believe Labour is “completely in favour of Brexit”.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/27/labour-voters-could-abandon-party-over-brexit-stance-poll-finds

    Some people are in for a nasty shock!
  • Oh god...one look at that interior decor and he clearly wants to be Donald Trump.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-5214983/Inside-Dave-Sullivan-Jrs-lavish-London-bachelor-pad.html

    West Ham are a club with chav fans, what do you expect?
  • Labour voters could abandon party over Brexit stance, poll finds

    Labour is coming under pressure from leading pro-remain campaigners to clarify its stance on Brexit, after polling showed that a quarter of its current voters could switch party by the next election and more than half would oppose Labour backing Brexit.

    The poll of people planning to vote Labour – conducted by YouGov for the Best of Britain campaign group – found 24% said they may change their minds before the next election, and two-thirds of those who voted remain would be disappointed or angry if Labour says it will proceed with Brexit.

    The poll also found many Labour voters have opposing perceptions about the party’s current stance on Brexit. It found 32% of Labour remain voters believe Labour is “completely against Brexit” and a further 31% of Labour leave voters believe Labour is “completely in favour of Brexit”.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/27/labour-voters-could-abandon-party-over-brexit-stance-poll-finds

    Some people are in for a nasty shock!

    A bit of a fecking pointless poll when

    The poll did not directly ask whether their anger would be sufficient of itself to make them vote for another party. But the overall message from the poll is that Labour faces a greater political risk among both strong and wavering supporters if it is seen to be supporting Brexit.
  • Labour voters could abandon party over Brexit stance, poll finds

    Labour is coming under pressure from leading pro-remain campaigners to clarify its stance on Brexit, after polling showed that a quarter of its current voters could switch party by the next election and more than half would oppose Labour backing Brexit.

    The poll of people planning to vote Labour – conducted by YouGov for the Best of Britain campaign group – found 24% said they may change their minds before the next election, and two-thirds of those who voted remain would be disappointed or angry if Labour says it will proceed with Brexit.

    The poll also found many Labour voters have opposing perceptions about the party’s current stance on Brexit. It found 32% of Labour remain voters believe Labour is “completely against Brexit” and a further 31% of Labour leave voters believe Labour is “completely in favour of Brexit”.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/27/labour-voters-could-abandon-party-over-brexit-stance-poll-finds

    Some people are in for a nasty shock!

    A bit of a fecking pointless poll when

    The poll did not directly ask whether their anger would be sufficient of itself to make them vote for another party. But the overall message from the poll is that Labour faces a greater political risk among both strong and wavering supporters if it is seen to be supporting Brexit.
    Didn't want to give them ideas?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,131

    Charles said:

    I think Theresa May's Government is a complete mess. Shame Labour has Corbyn as a leader due to his inability to nail the PM down once and for all into resigning. I don't recall him once saying she should resign for the political failures she has presided over. I think Corbyn needs a course in forensic cross examination, so he can brutally undermine her at the despatch box.

    Michael Heseltine is spot on with his analysis of Brexit, it is worse than a Labour government headed by Corbyn. My only reservation about Corbyn is on security and National Defence. This Tory Brexit is going to wreck the economy without a good deal with the EU. If the government negotiate a deal for free trade on goods (which the EU has a very healthy surplus against the UK) and does not get a free trade agreement on services then the UK will be in a very dark place economically. I cannot see the trade deals the EU has signed with over 70 third party countries being easily transferred to the UK either after Brexit, so the gale of economic discontent heading for the UK is going to be breath-taking in its ferocity and indiscriminate selection of victims.

    The voice of the people can not be, will not be, and must not be denied
    That is easy to say if it does not affect you or people within your social circle. If there is a change in government then as they are elected, the mandate will supersede previous government mandates as it always does. It will also mean a different position can be taken with regard to Brexit.

    The 2016 referendum mandate will be as meaningless as the 1975 one was in 2016 further down the track. I simply do not understand why people get so hung up on the 2016 result if to use Boris Johnsons phrase "we cannot have our cake and eat it", indeed people of his ilk are negotiating so if they get a rubbish deal why on earth would you commit to leaving under every circumstance? Boris I seem to remember thought you could vote Leave, renegotiate and then stay in or does what he said not count?

    Cameron really let himself down in setting that referendum as a pledge in his 2015 manifesto. It was a terribly divisive thing to pledge and indeed has exposed a huge flank in the conservative parties reputation for competence, economic security and free trade.
    A general election doesn't override the referendum although, of course, the new government is entitled to implement the will of the people as it sees fit.
  • I miss Marf. Her cartoons were funny.

    The drawing in this one is pretty good. The joke could be funnier.

  • Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 568

    Freggles said:

    Ms. Apocalypse, also worth noting not many people in Leeds take the tube. Or the tram.

    Driving around Leeds would be enough to make Jeremy Clarkson get a bus pass
    Nah, I did it for six years.

    The M621 was a particular favourite.

    Also where the M1/M62/A1 meet is great fun.
    Would be great fun if they actually met in one place, the three junctions are about ten miles apart forming a triangle....
  • We're signing Virgil van Dijk for the same amount of money that we sold Luis Suarez for.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,796
    Rexel56 said:

    Freggles said:

    Ms. Apocalypse, also worth noting not many people in Leeds take the tube. Or the tram.

    Driving around Leeds would be enough to make Jeremy Clarkson get a bus pass
    Nah, I did it for six years.

    The M621 was a particular favourite.

    Also where the M1/M62/A1 meet is great fun.
    Would be great fun if they actually met in one place, the three junctions are about ten miles apart forming a triangle....
    LOL, fantasy bubble burst again
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 957

    Charles said:

    I think Theresa May's Government is a complete mess. Shame Labour has Corbyn as a leader due to his inability to nail the PM down once and for all into resigning. I don't recall him once saying she should resign for the political failures she has presided over. I think Corbyn needs a course in forensic cross examination, so he can brutally undermine her at the despatch box.

    Michael Heseltine is spot on with his analysis of Brexit, it is worse than a Labour government headed by Corbyn. My only reservation about Corbyn is on security and National Defence. This Tory Brexit is going to wreck the economy without a good deal with the EU. If the government negotiate a deal for free trade on goods (which the EU has a very healthy surplus against the UK) and does not get a free trade agreement on services then the UK will be in a very dark place economically. I cannot see the trade deals the EU has signed with over 70 third party countries being easily transferred to the UK either after Brexit, so the gale of economic discontent heading for the UK is going to be breath-taking in its ferocity and indiscriminate selection of victims.

    The voice of the people can not be, will not be, and must not be denied
    The 2016 referendum mandate will be as meaningless as the 1975 one was in 2016 further down the track. I simply do not understand why people get so hung up on the 2016 result if to use Boris Johnsons phrase "we cannot have our cake and eat it", indeed people of his ilk are negotiating so if they get a rubbish deal why on earth would you commit to leaving under every circumstance? Boris I seem to remember thought you could vote Leave, renegotiate and then stay in or does what he said not count?

    Cameron really let himself down in setting that referendum as a pledge in his 2015 manifesto. It was a terribly divisive thing to pledge and indeed has exposed a huge flank in the conservative parties reputation for competence, economic security and free trade.
    This doom mongering keeps on being delayed. First it was going to happen immediately after a Leave vote. Then we were told it only didn't happen because Article 50 hadn't been invoked yet. Now we are told it will be when we finally leave the EU. After that, it will be at the end of the transition period. After that it will be no single crisis event, but a supposed loss effect measured against a supposed land of milk and honey inside the EU. The counter-scenario will of course be calculated by the same people that couldn't predict the Brexit scenario accurately.

    Of course, this imagined counter scenario will still be used to say the situation is so serious the biggest vote in UK history should be ignored.
  • Rexel56 said:

    Freggles said:

    Ms. Apocalypse, also worth noting not many people in Leeds take the tube. Or the tram.

    Driving around Leeds would be enough to make Jeremy Clarkson get a bus pass
    Nah, I did it for six years.

    The M621 was a particular favourite.

    Also where the M1/M62/A1 meet is great fun.
    Would be great fun if they actually met in one place, the three junctions are about ten miles apart forming a triangle....
    That slope where the M1/M62 meet though is epic.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 17,778
    Elliot said:

    This doom mongering keeps on being delayed. First it was going to happen immediately after a Leave vote. Then we were told it only didn't happen because Article 50 hadn't been invoked yet. Now we are told it will be when we finally leave the EU. After that, it will be at the end of the transition period. After that it will be no single crisis event, but a supposed loss effect measured against a supposed land of milk and honey inside the EU. The counter-scenario will of course be calculated by the same people that couldn't predict the Brexit scenario accurately.

    Of course, this imagined counter scenario will still be used to say the situation is so serious the biggest vote in UK history should be ignored.

    Political doom has been upon the UK since it invoked Article 50 and gave away all control.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,630

    Labour voters could abandon party over Brexit stance, poll finds

    Labour is coming under pressure from leading pro-remain campaigners to clarify its stance on Brexit, after polling showed that a quarter of its current voters could switch party by the next election and more than half would oppose Labour backing Brexit.

    The poll of people planning to vote Labour – conducted by YouGov for the Best of Britain campaign group – found 24% said they may change their minds before the next election, and two-thirds of those who voted remain would be disappointed or angry if Labour says it will proceed with Brexit.

    The poll also found many Labour voters have opposing perceptions about the party’s current stance on Brexit. It found 32% of Labour remain voters believe Labour is “completely against Brexit” and a further 31% of Labour leave voters believe Labour is “completely in favour of Brexit”.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/27/labour-voters-could-abandon-party-over-brexit-stance-poll-finds

    Some people are in for a nasty shock!

    The problem for Labour is that the 63% of its voters who want it to stop Brexit are mostly unlikely to vote anything but Labour with maybe a few voting LD if it does not reverse Brexit but the 22% of Labour voters who want the party to commit to back Brexit are far more likely to switch to the Tories.

    In a decade or so Labour could come to a compromise by taking the UK back into the single market and customs union once immigration has been brought under control but that is unlikely to happen under Corbyn.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 17,778
    Charles said:

    A general election doesn't override the referendum although, of course, the new government is entitled to implement the will of the people as it sees fit.

    The idea of treating the Brexit referendum as an expression of the general will in French revolutionary style is dead and cannot be revived.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 27,371
    edited December 2017
    Bomb rips through St Petersburg supermarket injuring ten Christmas shoppers in suspected terror attack

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5215749/At-four-people-injured-blast-St-Petersburg.html
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,343
    Freggles said:

    Ms. Apocalypse, also worth noting not many people in Leeds take the tube. Or the tram.

    Driving around Leeds would be enough to make Jeremy Clarkson get a bus pass
    Is that bloody loop road still there, with it’s half-hour circles if you miss your exit that wasn’t signposted?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,343

    We're signing Virgil van Dijk for the same amount of money that we sold Luis Suarez for.

    Good news today, but we should never have let Suarez go - even if it was for a British record at the time.
  • Sandpit said:

    Freggles said:

    Ms. Apocalypse, also worth noting not many people in Leeds take the tube. Or the tram.

    Driving around Leeds would be enough to make Jeremy Clarkson get a bus pass
    Is that bloody loop road still there, with it’s half-hour circles if you miss your exit that wasn’t signposted?
    If you think that is bad, try the one that goes around Atlanta....
  • Sandpit said:

    We're signing Virgil van Dijk for the same amount of money that we sold Luis Suarez for.

    Good news today, but we should never have let Suarez go - even if it was for a British record at the time.
    Gnasher* isn't looking so good these days.

    * I presume that given Dennis is no longer a menace, Gnasher is now called Brian or something.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 64,256
    edited December 2017
    Sandpit said:

    We're signing Virgil van Dijk for the same amount of money that we sold Luis Suarez for.

    Good news today, but we should never have let Suarez go - even if it was for a British record at the time.
    It is the power of Klopp.

    He turned down City and Chelsea (and more money) for the chance to work with Klopp.

    Edit - We had to let Suarez leave, Barca triggered his release clause.
  • Mr. Eagles, Hannibal did no such thing.

    [As an aside, Barcelona, so the story goes, really is named after the Barca family].
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,343
    edited December 2017

    Sandpit said:

    We're signing Virgil van Dijk for the same amount of money that we sold Luis Suarez for.

    Good news today, but we should never have let Suarez go - even if it was for a British record at the time.
    It is the power of Klopp.

    He turned down City and Chelsea (and more money) for the chance to work with Klopp.

    Edit - We had to let Suarez leave, Barca triggered his release clause.
    With today’s signing we’ve got a good chance of ending up second, and let’s face it we desperately need more strength in defence.

    Edit: Ah yes, I remember the crap around the Suarez transfer now. At the time I thought it was a good move to take the money, but it wasn’t invested well enough.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 17,778
    Is there a football forum somewhere having a debate about Brexit?
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    We're signing Virgil van Dijk for the same amount of money that we sold Luis Suarez for.

    Good news today, but we should never have let Suarez go - even if it was for a British record at the time.
    It is the power of Klopp.

    He turned down City and Chelsea (and more money) for the chance to work with Klopp.

    Edit - We had to let Suarez leave, Barca triggered his release clause.
    With today’s signing we’ve got a good chance of ending up second, and let’s face it we desperately need more strength in defence.

    Edit: Ah yes, I remember the crap around the Suarez transfer now. At the time I thought it was a good move to take the money, but it wasn’t invested well enough.
    What are you saying, Mario Balotelli, Rickie Lambert and Lazar Markovic were roaring successes!!!!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,343

    Sandpit said:

    Freggles said:

    Ms. Apocalypse, also worth noting not many people in Leeds take the tube. Or the tram.

    Driving around Leeds would be enough to make Jeremy Clarkson get a bus pass
    Is that bloody loop road still there, with it’s half-hour circles if you miss your exit that wasn’t signposted?
    If you think that is bad, try the one that goes around Atlanta....
    Thankfully I’ve never been to Atlanta. That crap road system in Leeds however made me late for a meeting more than once. I eventually learned to stop, park and walk if I got stuck - this being in the days before sat nav ubiquity, driving and navigating by an OS map or a MapPoint printout.
  • Is there a football forum somewhere having a debate about Brexit?

    Yup lots of them do.
  • Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 568
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    We're signing Virgil van Dijk for the same amount of money that we sold Luis Suarez for.

    Good news today, but we should never have let Suarez go - even if it was for a British record at the time.
    It is the power of Klopp.

    He turned down City and Chelsea (and more money) for the chance to work with Klopp.

    Edit - We had to let Suarez leave, Barca triggered his release clause.
    With today’s signing we’ve got a good chance of ending up second, and let’s face it we desperately need more strength in defence.

    Edit: Ah yes, I remember the crap around the Suarez transfer now. At the time I thought it was a good move to take the money, but it wasn’t invested well enough.
    Unlike the £50m for Torres that was reinvested so wisely...
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 957

    Charles said:

    A general election doesn't override the referendum although, of course, the new government is entitled to implement the will of the people as it sees fit.

    The idea of treating the Brexit referendum as an expression of the general will in French revolutionary style is dead and cannot be revived.
    It is not. It being seen as a British exercise of democratic decision in line with a manifesto promise.
  • Rexel56 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    We're signing Virgil van Dijk for the same amount of money that we sold Luis Suarez for.

    Good news today, but we should never have let Suarez go - even if it was for a British record at the time.
    It is the power of Klopp.

    He turned down City and Chelsea (and more money) for the chance to work with Klopp.

    Edit - We had to let Suarez leave, Barca triggered his release clause.
    With today’s signing we’ve got a good chance of ending up second, and let’s face it we desperately need more strength in defence.

    Edit: Ah yes, I remember the crap around the Suarez transfer now. At the time I thought it was a good move to take the money, but it wasn’t invested well enough.
    Unlike the £50m for Torres that was reinvested so wisely...
    It was, we spent half of it on Suarez.

    That's how I view it.
  • Is there a football forum somewhere having a debate about Brexit?

    The football forum I go on is currently up to page 1564 on its dedicated Brexit thread.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,343

    Is there a football forum somewhere having a debate about Brexit?

    The pilots’ forum “Brexit hamster wheel” thread has 24,377 comments so far...
    https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/582793-brexit-telephone-box-hampsterwheel.html
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 2,025
    edited December 2017

    Sandpit said:

    We're signing Virgil van Dijk for the same amount of money that we sold Luis Suarez for.

    Good news today, but we should never have let Suarez go - even if it was for a British record at the time.
    It is the power of Klopp.

    He turned down City and Chelsea (and more money) for the chance to work with Klopp.

    Edit - We had to let Suarez leave, Barca triggered his release clause.
    Means Coutinho on his way. Salah probably too.
    Southampton report no other interest.
  • dixiedean said:

    Sandpit said:

    We're signing Virgil van Dijk for the same amount of money that we sold Luis Suarez for.

    Good news today, but we should never have let Suarez go - even if it was for a British record at the time.
    It is the power of Klopp.

    He turned down City and Chelsea (and more money) for the chance to work with Klopp.

    Edit - We had to let Suarez leave, Barca triggered his release clause.
    Means Coutinho on his way. Salah probably too.
    Southampton report no other interest.
    I don't think the Coutinho deal is going to happen.

    Simply Barca can't afford him.

    Their £120 million offer last time was

    £80 million plus £40 million in add ons.

    FSG won't accept anything like that.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,343
    dixiedean said:

    Sandpit said:

    We're signing Virgil van Dijk for the same amount of money that we sold Luis Suarez for.

    Good news today, but we should never have let Suarez go - even if it was for a British record at the time.
    It is the power of Klopp.

    He turned down City and Chelsea (and more money) for the chance to work with Klopp.

    Edit - We had to let Suarez leave, Barca triggered his release clause.
    Means Coutinho on his way. Salah probably too.
    Southampton report no other interest.
    Will either of them want to go 400yds across Stanley Park though?
  • Plus there's rumours Liverpool are going to get Thomas Lemar for £90 million in January.

    So Liverpool will have broken their transfer record 5 times in six months.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 495
    edited December 2017
    Previous Comment:
    "This doom mongering keeps on being delayed. First it was going to happen immediately after a Leave vote. Then we were told it only didn't happen because Article 50 hadn't been invoked yet. Now we are told it will be when we finally leave the EU. After that, it will be at the end of the transition period. After that it will be no single crisis event, but a supposed loss effect measured against a supposed land of milk and honey inside the EU. The counter-scenario will of course be calculated by the same people that couldn't predict the Brexit scenario accurately.

    Of course, this imagined counter scenario will still be used to say the situation is so serious the biggest vote in UK history should be ignored."

    The "doom mongering" as you call it is supported by hundreds of years of statistical records that if you erect trade barriers it will cause trade to fall and hence economic output will rise less quickly. This is precisely what happened in the 1930s. Furthermore why if tariff barriers and customs control are so unimportant has for most of the post war period there been a policy of reducing these barriers to trade which has augmented economic growth and produced the most interdependent global economy and widespread prosperity of people in history?

    Brexit means trade barriers if you just leave the EU, not just with the EU but over 70 different countries. If you just leave it will affect the economy, look to economic data from the 1930s and see what happened to the economies of countries then, when they erected trade barriers. Why do you think even Brexit supporting politicians are negotiating with the EU? By your reasoning the doom would never come so why bother? I think people who voted Brexit were duped on so many levels, the £350M a week for the NHS, the level of Immigration and possibly the largest deception of all is the dependence on trade for the UK economy to sustain the populations living standards.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 2,025

    dixiedean said:

    Sandpit said:

    We're signing Virgil van Dijk for the same amount of money that we sold Luis Suarez for.

    Good news today, but we should never have let Suarez go - even if it was for a British record at the time.
    It is the power of Klopp.

    He turned down City and Chelsea (and more money) for the chance to work with Klopp.

    Edit - We had to let Suarez leave, Barca triggered his release clause.
    Means Coutinho on his way. Salah probably too.
    Southampton report no other interest.
    I don't think the Coutinho deal is going to happen.

    Simply Barca can't afford him.

    Their £120 million offer last time was

    £80 million plus £40 million in add ons.

    FSG won't accept anything like that.
    They could always tell him to go on strike.
  • dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sandpit said:

    We're signing Virgil van Dijk for the same amount of money that we sold Luis Suarez for.

    Good news today, but we should never have let Suarez go - even if it was for a British record at the time.
    It is the power of Klopp.

    He turned down City and Chelsea (and more money) for the chance to work with Klopp.

    Edit - We had to let Suarez leave, Barca triggered his release clause.
    Means Coutinho on his way. Salah probably too.
    Southampton report no other interest.
    I don't think the Coutinho deal is going to happen.

    Simply Barca can't afford him.

    Their £120 million offer last time was

    £80 million plus £40 million in add ons.

    FSG won't accept anything like that.
    They could always tell him to go on strike.
    He's still got another 4 years left on his contract and he's got a world cup coming up.

    The £8.5 million we signed Coutinho for has to the be greatest bit of transfer dealing in Premier League history.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 17,778
    Sandpit said:

    Is there a football forum somewhere having a debate about Brexit?

    The pilots’ forum “Brexit hamster wheel” thread has 24,377 comments so far...
    https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/582793-brexit-telephone-box-hampsterwheel.html
    The penultimate comment from an expat expresses a familiar sentiment.

    "I truly hope the uk make a success of it (and it affects me not one iota) but it is my home country, can still lead the world and quite simply.... they deserve to."
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 957

    Elliot said:

    This doom mongering keeps on being delayed. First it was going to happen immediately after a Leave vote. Then we were told it only didn't happen because Article 50 hadn't been invoked yet. Now we are told it will be when we finally leave the EU. After that, it will be at the end of the transition period. After that it will be no single crisis event, but a supposed loss effect measured against a supposed land of milk and honey inside the EU. The counter-scenario will of course be calculated by the same people that couldn't predict the Brexit scenario accurately.

    Of course, this imagined counter scenario will still be used to say the situation is so serious the biggest vote in UK history should be ignored.

    Political doom has been upon the UK since it invoked Article 50 and gave away all control.
    That loss of control somehow manages to end the rule of the ECJ and renationalise immigration policy.

    But your reply is precisely the sort of attention diversion done by Remainers when challenged about their economic predictions going up in smoke.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 2,025

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sandpit said:

    We're signing Virgil van Dijk for the same amount of money that we sold Luis Suarez for.

    Good news today, but we should never have let Suarez go - even if it was for a British record at the time.
    It is the power of Klopp.

    He turned down City and Chelsea (and more money) for the chance to work with Klopp.

    Edit - We had to let Suarez leave, Barca triggered his release clause.
    Means Coutinho on his way. Salah probably too.
    Southampton report no other interest.
    I don't think the Coutinho deal is going to happen.

    Simply Barca can't afford him.

    Their £120 million offer last time was

    £80 million plus £40 million in add ons.

    FSG won't accept anything like that.
    They could always tell him to go on strike.
    He's still got another 4 years left on his contract and he's got a world cup coming up.

    The £8.5 million we signed Coutinho for has to the be greatest bit of transfer dealing in Premier League history.
    Van Dijk had 5 years on his! Admittedly he hasn't got a World Cup...
    RE Coutinho I agree. But beware. FSG have a track record of signing great players on the cheap. And a load of crap for far too much.
  • dixiedean said:


    Van Dijk had 5 years on his! Admittedly he hasn't got a World Cup...
    RE Coutinho I agree. But beware. FSG have a track record of signing great players on the cheap. And a load of crap for far too much.

    Klopp's in complete control now of transfers and FSG trust him implicitly that's the difference from the past.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 957

    Previous Comment:
    "This doom mongering keeps on being delayed. First it was going to happen immediately after a Leave vote. Then we were told it only didn't happen because Article 50 hadn't been invoked yet. Now we are told it will be when we finally leave the EU. After that, it will be at the end of the transition period. After that it will be no single crisis event, but a supposed loss effect measured against a supposed land of milk and honey inside the EU. The counter-scenario will of course be calculated by the same people that couldn't predict the Brexit scenario accurately.

    Of course, this imagined counter scenario will still be used to say the situation is so serious the biggest vote in UK history should be ignored."

    The "doom mongering" as you call it is supported by hundreds of years of statistical records that if you erect trade barriers it will cause trade to fall and hence economic output will rise less quickly. This is precisely what happened in the 1930s. Furthermore why if tariff barriers and customs control are so unimportant has for most of the post war period there been a policy of reducing these barriers to trade which has augmented economic growth and produced the most interdependent global economy and widespread prosperity of people in history?

    Brexit means trade barriers if you just leave the EU, not just with the EU but over 70 different countries. If you just leave it will affect the economy, look to economic data from the 1930s and see what happened to the economies of countries then, when they erected trade barriers. Why do you think even Brexit supporting politicians are negotiating with the EU? By your reasoning the doom would never come so why bother? I think people who voted Brexit were duped on so many levels, the £350M a week for the NHS, the level of Immigration and possibly the largest deception of all is the dependence on trade for the UK economy to sustain the populations living standards.


    I think people who voted Remain were duped over the threat of an immediate year long recession. But we had this debate, both sides had their chance to poke holes in each others' arguments, and Leave won. Most Remainers showed how to lose with grace and dignity.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,131

    Charles said:

    A general election doesn't override the referendum although, of course, the new government is entitled to implement the will of the people as it sees fit.

    The idea of treating the Brexit referendum as an expression of the general will in French revolutionary style is dead and cannot be revived.
    Only in your dreams honey
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,343

    Sandpit said:

    Is there a football forum somewhere having a debate about Brexit?

    The pilots’ forum “Brexit hamster wheel” thread has 24,377 comments so far...
    https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/582793-brexit-telephone-box-hampsterwheel.html
    The penultimate comment from an expat expresses a familiar sentiment.

    "I truly hope the uk make a success of it (and it affects me not one iota) but it is my home country, can still lead the world and quite simply.... they deserve to."
    There’s as many comments you’d agree with on that forum, as those I’d agree with.
    Okay, maybe not on joining the Euro, but...
  • Is there a football forum somewhere having a debate about Brexit?

    The football forum I go on is currently up to page 1564 on its dedicated Brexit thread.
    How much new or thought provoking (note, not merely provocative) has been said since page 3?
  • Plus there's rumours Liverpool are going to get Thomas Lemar for £90 million in January.

    So Liverpool will have broken their transfer record 5 times in six months.

    That’s a great deal of spending to end 5th.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,606

    Plus there's rumours Liverpool are going to get Thomas Lemar for £90 million in January.

    So Liverpool will have broken their transfer record 5 times in six months.

    That’s a great deal of spending to end 5th.
    Be optimistic - could be 4th. Dare to dream, even 3rd.
  • If Labour win the next general election, will the Tories accept their mandate and vote in favour of the Labour Government’s legislation? It is the will of the people?

    Why is Brexit any different?
  • Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    This doom mongering keeps on being delayed. First it was going to happen immediately after a Leave vote. Then we were told it only didn't happen because Article 50 hadn't been invoked yet. Now we are told it will be when we finally leave the EU. After that, it will be at the end of the transition period. After that it will be no single crisis event, but a supposed loss effect measured against a supposed land of milk and honey inside the EU. The counter-scenario will of course be calculated by the same people that couldn't predict the Brexit scenario accurately.

    Of course, this imagined counter scenario will still be used to say the situation is so serious the biggest vote in UK history should be ignored.

    Political doom has been upon the UK since it invoked Article 50 and gave away all control.
    That loss of control somehow manages to end the rule of the ECJ and renationalise immigration policy.

    But your reply is precisely the sort of attention diversion done by Remainers when challenged about their economic predictions going up in smoke.
    You don't seem to realise the Government is going to let in hundreds of thousands of immigrants into the country every year whether the UK is in the EU or not. To be honest I would rather have European immigrants to those who come from unstable countries that share little cultural, religious and economic values. The reason the UK is going to let hundreds of thousands of immigrants in every year is because it helps to grow nominal GDP. This is essential because without Immigration the UK will suffer a similar fate as Japan where the number of working age people has declined relative to those who are supported by the state. So Brexit means less Europeans and possibly more Islamic underpinned Immigration.

    The political class who advocated Brexit are well aware of the reason why Immigration will have to continue in order to support those reliant on state support. Indeed Johnson and Davis amongst others called for liberal immigration policy where as the Tory media in order to win the 2016 referendum focused on Farage saying Immigration could be cut. Farage was lying and as with many Brexit supporters employs double standards, it is alright for his wife to be German and live in the UK and his alleged mistress to be French but everybody else is not able to do this. If you say to people particularly pensioners the reason why Immigration has to continue is partly to ensure the purchasing power of their pensions is sustained they simply ignore the point or bury their head in the sand saying they don't agree but like Farage they don't want to live with the fallout of their Brexit supporting ways.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 5,229
    edited December 2017

    Previous Comment:
    "This doom mongering keeps on being delayed. First it was going to happen immediately after a Leave vote. Then we were told it only didn't happen because Article 50 hadn't been invoked yet. Now we are told it will be when we finally leave the EU. After that, it will be at the end of the transition period. After that it will be no single crisis event, but a supposed loss effect measured against a supposed land of milk and honey inside the EU. The counter-scenario will of course be calculated by the same people that couldn't predict the Brexit scenario accurately.

    Of course, this imagined counter scenario will still be used to say the situation is so serious the biggest vote in UK history should be ignored."

    The "doom mongering" as you call it is supported by hundreds of years of statistical records that if you erect trade barriers it will cause trade to fall and hence economic output will rise less quickly. This is precisely what happened in the 1930s. Furthermore why if tariff barriers and customs control are so unimportant has for most of the post war period there been a policy of reducing these barriers to trade which has augmented economic growth and produced the most interdependent global economy and widespread prosperity of people in history?

    Brexit means trade barriers if you just leave the EU, not just with the EU but over 70 different countries. If you just leave it will affect the economy, look to economic data from the 1930s and see what happened to the economies of countries then, when they erected trade barriers. Why do you think even Brexit supporting politicians are negotiating with the EU? By your reasoning the doom would never come so why bother? I think people who voted Brexit were duped on so many levels, the £350M a week for the NHS, the level of Immigration and possibly the largest deception of all is the dependence on trade for the UK economy to sustain the populations living standards.

    Enough already with the bold. What does it add to your post?
    Edit: what it does do is bugger up the quoting, which is another good reason not to do it.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,343

    Plus there's rumours Liverpool are going to get Thomas Lemar for £90 million in January.

    So Liverpool will have broken their transfer record 5 times in six months.

    That’s a great deal of spending to end 5th.
    < optimist >
    With a world class defender on the way, we’ve got a good chance of second now.
    < / optimist >
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,630
    edited December 2017

    If Labour win the next general election, will the Tories accept their mandate and vote in favour of the Labour Government’s legislation? It is the will of the people?

    Why is Brexit any different?

    Except Corbyn Labour still backs Brexit, after a general election all your voters and MPs have voted for your party, after a referendum some of your voters and MPs will have voted in a different way to the way you have
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 64,256
    edited December 2017
    Sandpit said:

    Plus there's rumours Liverpool are going to get Thomas Lemar for £90 million in January.

    So Liverpool will have broken their transfer record 5 times in six months.

    That’s a great deal of spending to end 5th.
    < optimist >
    With a world class defender on the way, we’ve got a good chance of second now.
    < / optimist >
    We've signed a top defender who is eligible to play in the knock out stages of the Champions League.

    #SuperOptimist
  • If Labour win the next general election, will the Tories accept their mandate and vote in favour of the Labour Government’s legislation? It is the will of the people?

    Why is Brexit any different?

    The Tories will have a democratic mandate as well. So no they don't have to vote for the government rather like Labour do not support the Tories at the moment. The Tories will be Members of Parliament! They will choose how to reflect the will of the people in their electorates. Read about Edmund Burke and his address to the electors of Bristol. It is a democratic principle of British elections that far predates Cameron's use of the advisory referendum.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,606
    HYUFD said:

    If Labour win the next general election, will the Tories accept their mandate and vote in favour of the Labour Government’s legislation? It is the will of the people?

    Why is Brexit any different?

    Except Corbyn Labour still backs Brexit, after a general election all your voters and MPs have voted for your party, after a referendum some of your voters and MPs will have voted in a different way to the way you have
    Indeed. I absolutely accept the point about not being required to support the government of the day for the reason Verulamius points out - oppositions continue to oppose even when decisively defeated - but there seems a lot of confusion about Brexit opposition and Labour. Time will see if they change tack I suppose.
  • Ishmael_Z said:

    Previous Comment:
    "This doom mongering keeps on being delayed. First it was going to happen immediately after a Leave vote. Then we were told it only didn't happen because Article 50 hadn't been invoked yet. Now we are told it will be when we finally leave the EU. After that, it will be at the end of the transition period. After that it will be no single crisis event, but a supposed loss effect measured against a supposed land of milk and honey inside the EU. The counter-scenario will of course be calculated by the same people that couldn't predict the Brexit scenario accurately.

    Of course, this imagined counter scenario will still be used to say the situation is so serious the biggest vote in UK history should be ignored."

    The "doom mongering" as you call it is supported by hundreds of years of statistical records that if you erect trade barriers it will cause trade to fall and hence economic output will rise less quickly. This is precisely what happened in the 1930s. Furthermore why if tariff barriers and customs control are so unimportant has for most of the post war period there been a policy of reducing these barriers to trade which has augmented economic growth and produced the most interdependent global economy and widespread prosperity of people in history?

    Brexit means trade barriers if you just leave the EU, not just with the EU but over 70 different countries. If you just leave it will affect the economy, look to economic data from the 1930s and see what happened to the economies of countries then, when they erected trade barriers. Why do you think even Brexit supporting politicians are negotiating with the EU? By your reasoning the doom would never come so why bother? I think people who voted Brexit were duped on so many levels, the £350M a week for the NHS, the level of Immigration and possibly the largest deception of all is the dependence on trade for the UK economy to sustain the populations living standards.
    Enough already with the bold. What does it add to your post?
    Edit: what it does do is bugger up the quoting, which is another good reason not to do it.
    Sorry the Blockquote did not work so I wanted to differentiate what I thought from the person I was quoting as it just looked like their paragraphs preceded my thoughts.
  • Ishmael_Z said:

    Previous Comment:
    "This doom mongering keeps on being delayed. First it was going to happen immediately after a Leave vote. Then we were told it only didn't happen because Article 50 hadn't been invoked yet. Now we are told it will be when we finally leave the EU. After that, it will be at the end of the transition period. After that it will be no single crisis event, but a supposed loss effect measured against a supposed land of milk and honey inside the EU. The counter-scenario will of course be calculated by the same people that couldn't predict the Brexit scenario accurately.

    Of course, this imagined counter scenario will still be used to say the situation is so serious the biggest vote in UK history should be ignored."

    The "doom mongering" as you call it is supported by hundreds of years of statistical records that if you erect trade barriers it will cause trade to fall and hence economic output will rise less quickly. This is precisely what happened in the 1930s. Furthermore why if tariff barriers and customs control are so unimportant has for most of the post war period there been a policy of reducing these barriers to trade which has augmented economic growth and produced the most interdependent global economy and widespread prosperity of people in history?

    Brexit means trade barriers if you just leave the EU, not just with the EU but over 70 different countries. If you just leave it will affect the economy, look to economic data from the 1930s and see what happened to the economies of countries then, when they erected trade barriers. Why do you think even Brexit supporting politicians are negotiating with the EU? By your reasoning the doom would never come so why bother? I think people who voted Brexit were duped on so many levels, the £350M a week for the NHS, the level of Immigration and possibly the largest deception of all is the dependence on trade for the UK economy to sustain the populations living standards.
    Enough already with the bold. What does it add to your post?
    Edit: what it does do is bugger up the quoting, which is another good reason not to do it.
    Sorry the Blockquote did not work so I wanted to differentiate what I thought from the person I was quoting as it just looked like their paragraphs preceded my thoughts. It has just done it again from where I am looking, my contribution is merged with yours! Sorry.


  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,343

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    .

    Political doom has been upon the UK since it invoked Article 50 and gave away all control.
    That loss of control somehow manages to end the rule of the ECJ and renationalise immigration policy.

    But your reply is precisely the sort of attention diversion done by Remainers when challenged about their economic predictions going up in smoke.
    You don't seem to realise the Government is going to let in hundreds of thousands of immigrants into the country every year whether the UK is in the EU or not. To be honest I would rather have European immigrants to those who come from unstable countries that share little cultural, religious and economic values. The reason the UK is going to let hundreds of thousands of immigrants in every year is because it helps to grow nominal GDP. This is essential because without Immigration the UK will suffer a similar fate as Japan where the number of working age people has declined relative to those who are supported by the state. So Brexit means less Europeans and possibly more Islamic underpinned Immigration.

    The political class who advocated Brexit are well aware of the reason why Immigration will have to continue in order to support those reliant on state support. Indeed Johnson and Davis amongst others called for liberal immigration policy where as the Tory media in order to win the 2016 referendum focused on Farage saying Immigration could be cut. Farage was lying and as with many Brexit supporters employs double standards, it is alright for his wife to be German and live in the UK and his alleged mistress to be French but everybody else is not able to do this. If you say to people particularly pensioners the reason why Immigration has to continue is partly to ensure the purchasing power of their pensions is sustained they simply ignore the point or bury their head in the sand saying they don't agree but like Farage they don't want to live with the fallout of their Brexit supporting ways.
    Immigration will certainly continue after Brexit, but the difference will be that we will have a veto on those who don’t contribute. We don’t need more Romanian Big Issue sellers, or more Uber drivers working 16 hours a week topped up with tax credits and housing benefit with 4 kids at school here. We may need more temporary farm workers, or more skilled tradesmen, and definitely anyone who’s a higher-rate taxpayer should be welcomed - no matter which country they’re from in the world.

    But these decisions will be made by the people we elect, and we can choose to fire every few years if we don’t like what they’re doing.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,343

    Sandpit said:

    Plus there's rumours Liverpool are going to get Thomas Lemar for £90 million in January.

    So Liverpool will have broken their transfer record 5 times in six months.

    That’s a great deal of spending to end 5th.
    < optimist >
    With a world class defender on the way, we’ve got a good chance of second now.
    < / optimist >
    We've signed a top defender who is eligible to play in the knock out stages of the Champions League.

    #SuperOptimist
    Ah yes, not cup-tied in Europe. Hadn’t thought of that.
    2005 redux < / mega-optimist >
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,630
    edited December 2017
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    If Labour win the next general election, will the Tories accept their mandate and vote in favour of the Labour Government’s legislation? It is the will of the people?

    Why is Brexit any different?

    Except Corbyn Labour still backs Brexit, after a general election all your voters and MPs have voted for your party, after a referendum some of your voters and MPs will have voted in a different way to the way you have
    Indeed. I absolutely accept the point about not being required to support the government of the day for the reason Verulamius points out - oppositions continue to oppose even when decisively defeated - but there seems a lot of confusion about Brexit opposition and Labour. Time will see if they change tack I suppose.
    I can't see Labour changing tack under Corbyn, in a decade or so if someone like Umunna has replaced him as leader maybe. At least in relation to the single market and customs union if maybe not the EU itself
This discussion has been closed.