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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If LAB’s vulnerable on Brexit how come the majority of its GE1

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  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 9,105

    In all seriousness I don't get this.

    VAT is an EU tax. Any VAT registered company inside the EU is supposed to knock VAT off any cost of their goods when selling to a company outside the EU. That is how it works now and that is how it will, presumably, be supposed to work after we leave the EU. If I charge VAT on services or goods when (for example) I work in or sell into Norway the I am breaking the law.

    Whatever new arrangements the Government put in place for sales taxes in the UK post Brexit, if they are more onerous than the current arrangements that is not the fault of us leaving the EU. It is up to the Government to make sure they are fit for purpose.

    VAT isn't an EU tax, it's a UK tax which is EU-compatible and EU-mandated.

    The issue is not exports, but imports. Currently if you are a business which imports something from outside the EU, you have to pay VAT on it immediately. This of course is a VAT input so it's not a cost for a VAT-registered business, but it is a cash-flow issue because you pay the VAT now on the import but there may be a delay of up to four months before you get the input tax back in your VAT return. The complaint is that this will now apply to imports from the EU27.
    Wait a second, where do you get that from?

    If you import from outside the EU then there is no VAT to pay unless the nation that exports it demands VAT. I pay a monthyl subscription for software licensing from America, as America has no VAT there is no VAT to pay on payment of the good - then equally of course no VAT to reclaim when I file my VAT return.

    It was my understanding that similarly there was no VAT on exports to outside the EU. If a company in the EU exports to America it was my understanding that no VAT applied. Surely once we exit that should be the case to us too unless a deal is made to say otherwise?
    There is a blanket 5% import VAT rate on most goods imported into the UK from outside the customs union.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,864
    That sounds like bullshit.

    May isn't going to make Hammond her number two in a million years.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,864

    MaxPB said:

    http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Harmys-STAR-WARS-Despecialized-Edition-HD-V27-MKV-IS-OUT-NOW/id/12713

    Absolutely the best way to watch Star Wars. A bit of a mission to download, and please ensure that you own the Blu-ray before doing so. An absolute pleasure to watch without all of the idiotic Lucas additions.

    On that subject, I've discovered a link between people who love iPhones and people who are happy about the Lucas additions to the original trilogy. They also seem to be the same people who swear that The Last Jedi is the best one as well...

    I can't get into Star Wars.

    And, yes, I know I'm never supposed to admit that. But, I can't.
    Think of Star Wars as an analogy for Brexit.

    A trade bloc becomes an evil political empire.

    Our heroes, like Brexiteers, fight the good fight to beat the evil empire.
    Nice!
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 9,105

    Mortimer said:

    Another Brexit bonus?

    More than 130,000 UK firms will be forced to pay VAT upfront for the first time on all goods imported from the European Union after Brexit, under controversial legislation to be considered by MPs on Monday.

    The VAT changes spelled out in the taxation (cross-border trade) bill – one of a string of Brexit laws passing through parliament – are causing uproar among UK business groups, which say that they will create acute cashflow problems and huge additional bureaucracy.

    Labour and Tory MPs and peers said that the only way to avoid the VAT Brexit penalty would be to stay in the customs union or negotiate to remain in the EU-VAT area.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/vat-upfront-after-brexit-uk-imports

    Leaving the EU means leaving the EU shocker?
    There will clearly be big administrative and legislative changes from leaving the EU.

    As usual, I'd wait for all the details before getting too excited, particularly from a Remain supporting newspaper.
    It is also something that businesses will have realised already. It is literally importing 101.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,864
    tyson said:

    Sean_F said:

    Alistair said:

    For the same reason, the LibDems failed to get 48 per cent of the vote as the party of Remainer-dom.

    Labour -- and especially Jeremy -- very successfully turned the election into one that was not about Brexit, but about austerity and the divide between rich and poor.

    It was a very unusual election. It was Jeremy’s Finest Hour.

    May completely failing to define what Brexit would be in an election called to give her a Brexit mandate must surely go down as the greatest strategic blunder since some famouse historical battle or something.
    Almost, not quite. She did scrape a sort of win, rather than going down to defeat.
    By the skin of her teeth.

    If Ruth Davidson hadn't outperformed, we'd now have no stable Government at all.
    I still have nightmares about election night.

    Before we had any Scottish results it felt like we were on course for a Rainbow Alliance government.
    They were the worst 5 weeks of my life.

    The first chapter of Tim Shipman's (excellent) book "Fall Out" is called 'four minutes to ten'.

    I'll never forget that moment for the rest of my life.


    It almost gave me a heart attack.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 17,636
    edited January 6



    Wait a second, where do you get that from?

    If you import from outside the EU then there is no VAT to pay unless the nation that exports it demands VAT. I pay a monthyl subscription for software licensing from America, as America has no VAT there is no VAT to pay on payment of the good - then equally of course no VAT to reclaim when I file my VAT return.

    It was my understanding that similarly there was no VAT on exports to outside the EU. If a company in the EU exports to America it was my understanding that no VAT applied. Surely once we exit that should be the case to us too unless a deal is made to say otherwise?

    I get it from VAT law and practical experience.

    As I said, this is about cash-flow on imports from the EU27. (It makes no difference to exports). Today, if you import a widget from the US, you pay VAT immediately on clearing customs, and then some time later (possibly three months later if you file quarterly) you can claim it back in your VAT return as a VAT input, and then effectively get the cash back when you pay your VAT bill about a month later. If you import a similar widget from Germany, you don't pay anything at the time of import, but when you file your VAT return you account for it but then immediately claim it back, so there's no cash-flow effect.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 227
    Election night was the best political night of my life, actually the perfect result in many ways as a Corbyn fan, a majority was too much of a stretch this soon but leaving the Tories no majority and unpopular coalition partners neutralising SNP coalition jibe and having to deal with Brexit and any fall out would seem the almost perfect setup for the next election. Also great result for justifying Corbyn supporters who had been dismissed for a couple of years.
  • tysontyson Posts: 4,234

    So Mrs May isn't giving the country the vote to end the ban on foxhunting.

    I am desperately upset about that, as a passionate hunt supporter, but the game is up.

    You can't win when 85% of the country is against you, and even a majority of Tory members.

    That doesn't mean I agree with it (I never will) but, for now, there's no real alternative.
    Foxhunting is disgusting....this is nothing about class warfare, or any attempt to attack the landed classes...the terror and horror a of sentient mammal being ripped apart by a pack of hounds for a sport is absolutely disgraceful....

    But well done you for sticking up for what you like no matter how disgusting. I doubt there are many paedos out there equally likely to come out expressing their preference for how much they like fucking babies....
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 12,547
    Mortimer said:

    In all seriousness I don't get this.

    VAT is an EU tax. Any VAT registered company inside the EU is supposed to knock VAT off any cost of their goods when selling to a company outside the EU. That is how it works now and that is how it will, presumably, be supposed to work after we leave the EU. If I charge VAT on services or goods when (for example) I work in or sell into Norway the I am breaking the law.

    Whatever new arrangements the Government put in place for sales taxes in the UK post Brexit, if they are more onerous than the current arrangements that is not the fault of us leaving the EU. It is up to the Government to make sure they are fit for purpose.

    VAT isn't an EU tax, it's a UK tax which is EU-compatible and EU-mandated.

    The issue is not exports, but imports. Currently if you are a business which imports something from outside the EU, you have to pay VAT on it immediately. This of course is a VAT input so it's not a cost for a VAT-registered business, but it is a cash-flow issue because you pay the VAT now on the import but there may be a delay of up to four months before you get the input tax back in your VAT return. The complaint is that this will now apply to imports from the EU27.
    Wait a second, where do you get that from?

    If you import from outside the EU then there is no VAT to pay unless the nation that exports it demands VAT. I pay a monthyl subscription for software licensing from America, as America has no VAT there is no VAT to pay on payment of the good - then equally of course no VAT to reclaim when I file my VAT return.

    It was my understanding that similarly there was no VAT on exports to outside the EU. If a company in the EU exports to America it was my understanding that no VAT applied. Surely once we exit that should be the case to us too unless a deal is made to say otherwise?
    There is a blanket 5% import VAT rate on most goods imported into the UK from outside the customs union.
    Fair enough, I was not aware of that.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 12,547



    Wait a second, where do you get that from?

    If you import from outside the EU then there is no VAT to pay unless the nation that exports it demands VAT. I pay a monthyl subscription for software licensing from America, as America has no VAT there is no VAT to pay on payment of the good - then equally of course no VAT to reclaim when I file my VAT return.

    It was my understanding that similarly there was no VAT on exports to outside the EU. If a company in the EU exports to America it was my understanding that no VAT applied. Surely once we exit that should be the case to us too unless a deal is made to say otherwise?

    I get it from VAT law and practical experience.

    As I said, this is about cash-flow on imports from the EU27. (It makes no difference to exports). Today, if you import a widget from the US, you pay VAT immediately on clearing customs, and then some time later (possibly three months later if you file quarterly) you can claim it back in your VAT return as a VAT input, and then effectively get the cash back when you pay your VAT bill about a month later. If you import a similar widget from Germany, you don't pay anything at the time of import, but when you file your VAT return you account for it but then immediately claim it back, so there's no cash-flow effect.
    So it affects cash-flow solely.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 25,685

    Election night was the best political night of my life, actually the perfect result in many ways as a Corbyn fan, a majority was too much of a stretch this soon but leaving the Tories no majority and unpopular coalition partners neutralising SNP coalition jibe and having to deal with Brexit and any fall out would seem the almost perfect setup for the next election. Also great result for justifying Corbyn supporters who had been dismissed for a couple of years.

  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 17,636
    edited January 6

    Mortimer said:

    In all seriousness I don't get this.

    VAT is an EU tax. Any VAT registered company inside the EU is supposed to knock VAT off any cost of their goods when selling to a company outside the EU. That is how it works now and that is how it will, presumably, be supposed to work after we leave the EU. If I charge VAT on services or goods when (for example) I work in or sell into Norway the I am breaking the law.

    Whatever new arrangements the Government put in place for sales taxes in the UK post Brexit, if they are more onerous than the current arrangements that is not the fault of us leaving the EU. It is up to the Government to make sure they are fit for purpose.

    VAT isn't an EU tax, it's a UK tax which is EU-compatible and EU-mandated.

    The issue is not exports, but imports. Currently if you are a business which imports something from outside the EU, you have to pay VAT on it immediately. This of course is a VAT input so it's not a cost for a VAT-registered business, but it is a cash-flow issue because you pay the VAT now on the import but there may be a delay of up to four months before you get the input tax back in your VAT return. The complaint is that this will now apply to imports from the EU27.
    Wait a second, where do you get that from?

    If you import from outside the EU then there is no VAT to pay unless the nation that exports it demands VAT. I pay a monthyl subscription for software licensing from America, as America has no VAT there is no VAT to pay on payment of the good - then equally of course no VAT to reclaim when I file my VAT return.

    It was my understanding that similarly there was no VAT on exports to outside the EU. If a company in the EU exports to America it was my understanding that no VAT applied. Surely once we exit that should be the case to us too unless a deal is made to say otherwise?
    There is a blanket 5% import VAT rate on most goods imported into the UK from outside the customs union.
    Fair enough, I was not aware of that.
    Mortimer is wrong. The importer pays the full normal VAT rate (usually 20%) on imports from outside the UK':

    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/importing-goods-from-outside-the-eu
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,864
    Mortimer said:

    Sean_F said:

    Alistair said:

    For the same reason, the LibDems failed to get 48 per cent of the vote as the party of Remainer-dom.

    Labour -- and especially Jeremy -- very successfully turned the election into one that was not about Brexit, but about austerity and the divide between rich and poor.

    It was a very unusual election. It was Jeremy’s Finest Hour.

    May
    Almost, not quite. She did scrape a sort of win, rather than going down to defeat.
    By the skin of her teeth.

    If Ruth Davidson hadn't outperformed, we'd now have no stable Government at all.
    I still have nightmares about election night.

    Before we had any Scottish results it felt like we were on course for a Rainbow Alliance government.
    They were the worst 5 weeks of my life.

    The first chapter of Tim Shipman's (excellent) book "Fall Out" is called 'four minutes to ten'.

    I'll never forget that moment for the rest of my life.
    Just got this as a birthday pressie - might have to interrupt my reading of Sapiens to get cracking with it tonight...
    It's superb.

    The scariest chapter is "Lennists and Lennonists".

    The Russian revolutionary inspired Corbynites divide their two camps into Mensheviks and Bolsheviks.

    The Bolsheviks are the hardliners who preach an uncompromising ideological line and implacable opposition to moderates. They include Milne, John McDonnell, Andrew Fisher and Karie Murphy.

    Their numbers were bolstered last year when Milne recruited Steve Howell as his deputy. He worked in the 80s for Straight Left, a Stalinist sympathising newspaper which emerged from the pro-Soviet wing that broke from the Communist Party.

    This is Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition.

    Seriously, to all our normal, decent Labour posters on here: please, please get a grip on your party.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 9,105
    edited January 6

    Mortimer said:

    In all seriousness I don't get this.

    VAT is an EU tax. Any VAT registered company inside the EU is supposed to knock VAT off any cost of their goods when selling to a company outside the EU. That is how it works now and that is how it will, presumably, be supposed to work after we leave the EU. If I charge VAT on services or goods when (for example) I work in or sell into Norway the I am breaking the law.

    Whatever new arrangements the Government put in place for sales taxes in the UK post Brexit, if they are more onerous than the current arrangements that is not the fault of us leaving the EU. It is up to the Government to make sure they are fit for purpose.

    VAT isn't an EU tax, it's a UK tax which is EU-compatible and EU-mandated.

    The issue is not exports, but imports. Currently if you are a business which imports something from outside the EU, you have to pay VAT on it immediately. This of course is a VAT input so it's not a cost for a VAT-registered business, but it is a cash-flow issue because you pay the VAT now on the import but there may be a delay of up to four months before you get the input tax back in your VAT return. The complaint is that this will now apply to imports from the EU27.
    Wait a second, where do you get that from?

    If you import from outside the EU then there is no VAT to pay unless the nation that exports it demands VAT. I pay a monthyl subscription for software licensing from America, as America has no VAT there is no VAT to pay on payment of the good - then equally of course no VAT to reclaim when I file my VAT return.

    It was my understanding that similarly there was no VAT on exports to outside the EU. If a company in the EU exports to America it was my understanding that no VAT applied. Surely once we exit that should be the case to us too unless a deal is made to say otherwise?
    There is a blanket 5% import VAT rate on most goods imported into the UK from outside the customs union.
    Fair enough, I was not aware of that.
    Mortimer is wrong. You pay the full normal rate (sually 20%) on imports from outside the UK':

    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/importing-goods-from-outside-the-eu
    Yes, sorry, I was stupidly thinking of the 5% antiques rate. Thanks for correcting that Richard.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 17,636



    Wait a second, where do you get that from?

    If you import from outside the EU then there is no VAT to pay unless the nation that exports it demands VAT. I pay a monthyl subscription for software licensing from America, as America has no VAT there is no VAT to pay on payment of the good - then equally of course no VAT to reclaim when I file my VAT return.

    It was my understanding that similarly there was no VAT on exports to outside the EU. If a company in the EU exports to America it was my understanding that no VAT applied. Surely once we exit that should be the case to us too unless a deal is made to say otherwise?

    I get it from VAT law and practical experience.

    As I said, this is about cash-flow on imports from the EU27. (It makes no difference to exports). Today, if you import a widget from the US, you pay VAT immediately on clearing customs, and then some time later (possibly three months later if you file quarterly) you can claim it back in your VAT return as a VAT input, and then effectively get the cash back when you pay your VAT bill about a month later. If you import a similar widget from Germany, you don't pay anything at the time of import, but when you file your VAT return you account for it but then immediately claim it back, so there's no cash-flow effect.
    So it affects cash-flow solely.
    Yes, that's right (and to be fair that is what the article says).
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,864

    AndyJS said:

    Surprised that Portsmouth South and Bedford voted Leave. It must have been very close in those two.

    Both were very similar to national result 52-48 to Leave

    Corbyn successfully neutered Brexit as a decisive issue for Labour Leavers, whilst using it (skillfully) to attract Remainers in metropolitan areas.

    Meanwhile, May successfully attracted some UKIP'ers and Leavers over to her side in the Midlands and the North, but nowhere near as many as she'd hoped.
  • tysontyson Posts: 4,234

    Election night was the best political night of my life, actually the perfect result in many ways as a Corbyn fan, a majority was too much of a stretch this soon but leaving the Tories no majority and unpopular coalition partners neutralising SNP coalition jibe and having to deal with Brexit and any fall out would seem the almost perfect setup for the next election. Also great result for justifying Corbyn supporters who had been dismissed for a couple of years.

    It was a great night because 10.00 pm signalled the long and slow death of the populist right in this country and all their nihilistic, ideological, nasty, mean spirited bullshit.....T May asked the question and got the wrong answer....
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 2,236



    Wait a second, where do you get that from?

    If you import from outside the EU then there is no VAT to pay unless the nation that exports it demands VAT. I pay a monthyl subscription for software licensing from America, as America has no VAT there is no VAT to pay on payment of the good - then equally of course no VAT to reclaim when I file my VAT return.

    It was my understanding that similarly there was no VAT on exports to outside the EU. If a company in the EU exports to America it was my understanding that no VAT applied. Surely once we exit that should be the case to us too unless a deal is made to say otherwise?

    I get it from VAT law and practical experience.

    As I said, this is about cash-flow on imports from the EU27. (It makes no difference to exports). Today, if you import a widget from the US, you pay VAT immediately on clearing customs, and then some time later (possibly three months later if you file quarterly) you can claim it back in your VAT return as a VAT input, and then effectively get the cash back when you pay your VAT bill about a month later. If you import a similar widget from Germany, you don't pay anything at the time of import, but when you file your VAT return you account for it but then immediately claim it back, so there's no cash-flow effect.
    Presumably, as has been noted previously, it's in the gift of the government to change the rules to solve this problem?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,973
    tyson said:

    So Mrs May isn't giving the country the vote to end the ban on foxhunting.

    I am desperately upset about that, as a passionate hunt supporter, but the game is up.

    You can't win when 85% of the country is against you, and even a majority of Tory members.

    That doesn't mean I agree with it (I never will) but, for now, there's no real alternative.
    Foxhunting is disgusting....this is nothing about class warfare, or any attempt to attack the landed classes...the terror and horror a of sentient mammal being ripped apart by a pack of hounds for a sport is absolutely disgraceful....

    But well done you for sticking up for what you like no matter how disgusting. I doubt there are many paedos out there equally likely to come out expressing their preference for how much they like fucking babies....
    Whilst personally I wouldn't equate fox hunting with paedophilia I do agree with your general disgust at the pastime. I have lived practically my whole life in the country and do think in many ways it has been badly neglected by successive governments .

    I shoot game birds, rabbits and pigeon for food. I shoot rats and occasionally magpies for pest control. I would never consider killing or maiming an animal for fun. It always strikes me as akin to the old fashioned idea of kids pulling wings of insects or burning ants with a magnifying glass.
  • steve_garnersteve_garner Posts: 447

    Mortimer said:

    Sean_F said:

    Alistair said:

    For the same reason, the LibDems failed to get 48 per cent of the vote as the party of Remainer-dom.

    Labour -- and especially Jeremy -- very successfully turned the election into one that was not about Brexit, but about austerity and the divide between rich and poor.

    It was a very unusual election. It was Jeremy’s Finest Hour.

    May
    Almost, not quite. She did scrape a sort of win, rather than going down to defeat.
    By the skin of her teeth.

    If Ruth Davidson hadn't outperformed, we'd now have no stable Government at all.
    I still have nightmares about election night.

    Before we had any Scottish results it felt like we were on course for a Rainbow Alliance government.
    They were the worst 5 weeks of my life.

    The first chapter of Tim Shipman's (excellent) book "Fall Out" is called 'four minutes to ten'.

    I'll never forget that moment for the rest of my life.
    Just got this as a birthday pressie - might have to interrupt my reading of Sapiens to get cracking with it tonight...
    It's superb.

    The scariest chapter is "Lennists and Lennonists".

    The Russian revolutionary inspired Corbynites divide their two camps into Mensheviks and Bolsheviks.

    The Bolsheviks are the hardliners who preach an uncompromising ideological line and implacable opposition to moderates. They include Milne, John McDonnell, Andrew Fisher and Karie Murphy.

    Their numbers were bolstered last year when Milne recruited Steve Howell as his deputy. He worked in the 80s for Straight Left, a Stalinist sympathising newspaper which emerged from the pro-Soviet wing that broke from the Communist Party.

    This is Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition.

    Seriously, to all our normal, decent Labour posters on here: please, please get a grip on your party.
    No point appealing to Labour people. Their visceral hatred of the Tories is greater than their love of the country. They'd rather see Labour beat the Tories in a GE and trash the country than lose that GE.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,973



    Wait a second, where do you get that from?

    If you import from outside the EU then there is no VAT to pay unless the nation that exports it demands VAT. I pay a monthyl subscription for software licensing from America, as America has no VAT there is no VAT to pay on payment of the good - then equally of course no VAT to reclaim when I file my VAT return.

    It was my understanding that similarly there was no VAT on exports to outside the EU. If a company in the EU exports to America it was my understanding that no VAT applied. Surely once we exit that should be the case to us too unless a deal is made to say otherwise?

    I get it from VAT law and practical experience.

    As I said, this is about cash-flow on imports from the EU27. (It makes no difference to exports). Today, if you import a widget from the US, you pay VAT immediately on clearing customs, and then some time later (possibly three months later if you file quarterly) you can claim it back in your VAT return as a VAT input, and then effectively get the cash back when you pay your VAT bill about a month later. If you import a similar widget from Germany, you don't pay anything at the time of import, but when you file your VAT return you account for it but then immediately claim it back, so there's no cash-flow effect.
    So as I have already said this is nothing to do with us being forced to adopt these rules as the article implied. This is about the Government making a specific decision about how it will enforce its own revenue rules once we leave the EU.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 17,636
    Having said all that, have MPs like Nicky Morgan, and 'business groups', really not understood until this week how VAT works? 'Controversial legislation' , for heaven's sake? How on earth else would they expect VAT to work after Brexit?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 2,236
    tyson said:

    Election night was the best political night of my life, actually the perfect result in many ways as a Corbyn fan, a majority was too much of a stretch this soon but leaving the Tories no majority and unpopular coalition partners neutralising SNP coalition jibe and having to deal with Brexit and any fall out would seem the almost perfect setup for the next election. Also great result for justifying Corbyn supporters who had been dismissed for a couple of years.

    It was a great night because 10.00 pm signalled the long and slow death of the populist right in this country and all their nihilistic, ideological, nasty, mean spirited bullshit.....T May asked the question and got the wrong answer....
    Indeed. It was a very large nail in the coffin of the neoliberal claptrap that has had most of the political elite under its spell for nigh on 40 years.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 25,685
    tlg86 said:

    Does anyone else think Trump is in on this book thing?

  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 6,487



    Wait a second, where do you get that from?

    If you import from outside the EU then there is no VAT to pay unless the nation that exports it demands VAT. I pay a monthyl subscription for software licensing from America, as America has no VAT there is no VAT to pay on payment of the good - then equally of course no VAT to reclaim when I file my VAT return.

    It was my understanding that similarly there was no VAT on exports to outside the EU. If a company in the EU exports to America it was my understanding that no VAT applied. Surely once we exit that should be the case to us too unless a deal is made to say otherwise?

    I get it from VAT law and practical experience.

    As I said, this is about cash-flow on imports from the EU27. (It makes no difference to exports). Today, if you import a widget from the US, you pay VAT immediately on clearing customs, and then some time later (possibly three months later if you file quarterly) you can claim it back in your VAT return as a VAT input, and then effectively get the cash back when you pay your VAT bill about a month later. If you import a similar widget from Germany, you don't pay anything at the time of import, but when you file your VAT return you account for it but then immediately claim it back, so there's no cash-flow effect.
    Presumably, as has been noted previously, it's in the gift of the government to change the rules to solve this problem?
    The question is whether or not it is a "problem"??
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 16,984

    tyson said:

    So Mrs May isn't giving the country the vote to end the ban on foxhunting.

    I am desperately upset about that, as a passionate hunt supporter, but the game is up.

    You can't win when 85% of the country is against you, and even a majority of Tory members.

    That doesn't mean I agree with it (I never will) but, for now, there's no real alternative.
    Foxhunting is disgusting....this is nothing about class warfare, or any attempt to attack the landed classes...the terror and horror a of sentient mammal being ripped apart by a pack of hounds for a sport is absolutely disgraceful....

    But well done you for sticking up for what you like no matter how disgusting. I doubt there are many paedos out there equally likely to come out expressing their preference for how much they like fucking babies....
    Whilst personally I wouldn't equate fox hunting with paedophilia I do agree with your general disgust at the pastime. I have lived practically my whole life in the country and do think in many ways it has been badly neglected by successive governments .

    I shoot game birds, rabbits and pigeon for food. I shoot rats and occasionally magpies for pest control. I would never consider killing or maiming an animal for fun. It always strikes me as akin to the old fashioned idea of kids pulling wings of insects or burning ants with a magnifying glass.
    Hare coursing never seems to get quite the same attention.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 9,105

    Having said all that, have MPs like Nicky Morgan, and 'business groups', really not understood until this week how VAT works? 'Controversial legislation' , for heaven's sake? How on earth else would they expect VAT to work after Brexit?

    My reaction exactly.

    I suppose few MPs have ever imported anything....
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,864

    Mortimer said:

    Sean_F said:

    Alistair said:

    For the same reason, the LibDems failed to get 48 per cent of the vote as the party of Remainer-dom.

    Labour -- and especially Jeremy -- very successfully turned the election into one that was not about Brexit, but about austerity and the divide between rich and poor.

    It was a very unusual election. It was Jeremy’s Finest Hour.

    May
    Almost, not quite. She did scrape a sort of win, rather than going down to defeat.
    By the skin of her teeth.

    If Ruth Davidson hadn't outperformed, we'd now have no stable Government at all.
    I still have nightmares about election night.

    Before we had any Scottish results it felt like we were on course for a Rainbow Alliance government.
    They were the worst 5 weeks of my life.

    The first chapter of Tim Shipman's (excellent) book "Fall Out" is called 'four minutes to ten'.

    I'll never forget that moment for the rest of my life.
    Just got this as a birthday pressie - might have to interrupt my reading of Sapiens to get cracking with it tonight...
    It's superb.

    The scariest chapter is "Lennists and Lennonists".

    The Russian revolutionary inspired Corbynites divide their two camps into Mensheviks and Bolsheviks.

    The Bolsheviks are the hardliners who preach an uncompromising ideological line and implacable opposition to moderates. They include Milne, John McDonnell, Andrew Fisher and Karie Murphy.

    Their numbers were bolstered last year when Milne recruited Steve Howell as his deputy. He worked in the 80s for Straight Left, a Stalinist sympathising newspaper which emerged from the pro-Soviet wing that broke from the Communist Party.

    This is Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition.

    Seriously, to all our normal, decent Labour posters on here: please, please get a grip on your party.
    No point appealing to Labour people. Their visceral hatred of the Tories is greater than their love of the country. They'd rather see Labour beat the Tories in a GE and trash the country than lose that GE.
    No, actually I don't agree with that: I think posters like Southam Observer, Jonathan and Wulfrun Phil are genuinely concerned about it, and they are patriotic.

    There are others who are not. Some of whom pop up on here, I'm afraid.

    They're usually the more naive, aggressive or abusive ones.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 2,236

    Mortimer said:

    Sean_F said:

    Alistair said:

    For the same reason, the LibDems failed to get 48 per cent of the vote as the party of Remainer-dom.

    Labour -- and especially Jeremy -- very successfully turned the election into one that was not about Brexit, but about austerity and the divide between rich and poor.

    It was a very unusual election. It was Jeremy’s Finest Hour.

    May
    Almost, not quite. She did scrape a sort of win, rather than going down to defeat.
    By the skin of her teeth.

    If Ruth Davidson hadn't outperformed, we'd now have no stable Government at all.
    I still have nightmares about election night.

    Before we had any Scottish results it felt like we were on course for a Rainbow Alliance government.
    They were the worst 5 weeks of my life.

    The first chapter of Tim Shipman's (excellent) book "Fall Out" is called 'four minutes to ten'.

    I'll never forget that moment for the rest of my life.
    Just got this as a birthday pressie - might have to interrupt my reading of Sapiens to get cracking with it tonight...
    It's superb.

    The scariest chapter is "Lennists and Lennonists".

    The Russian revolutionary inspired Corbynites divide their two camps into Mensheviks and Bolsheviks.

    The Bolsheviks are the hardliners who preach an uncompromising ideological line and implacable opposition to moderates. They include Milne, John McDonnell, Andrew Fisher and Karie Murphy.

    Their numbers were bolstered last year when Milne recruited Steve Howell as his deputy. He worked in the 80s for Straight Left, a Stalinist sympathising newspaper which emerged from the pro-Soviet wing that broke from the Communist Party.

    This is Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition.

    Seriously, to all our normal, decent Labour posters on here: please, please get a grip on your party.
    No point appealing to Labour people. Their visceral hatred of the Tories is greater than their love of the country. They'd rather see Labour beat the Tories in a GE and trash the country than lose that GE and allow the Tories to continue to trash it.
    You missed a bit off the end of that last sentence.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 17,636

    So as I have already said this is nothing to do with us being forced to adopt these rules as the article implied. This is about the Government making a specific decision about how it will enforce its own revenue rules once we leave the EU.

    Not really, because it's hard to see how, after we've left the EU, the government could justify discriminating against imports from non-EU27 countries in VAT law.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 4,521

    tyson said:

    So Mrs May isn't giving the country the vote to end the ban on foxhunting.

    I am desperately upset about that, as a passionate hunt supporter, but the game is up.

    You can't win when 85% of the country is against you, and even a majority of Tory members.

    That doesn't mean I agree with it (I never will) but, for now, there's no real alternative.
    Foxhunting is disgusting....this is nothing about class warfare, or any attempt to attack the landed classes...the terror and horror a of sentient mammal being ripped apart by a pack of hounds for a sport is absolutely disgraceful....

    But well done you for sticking up for what you like no matter how disgusting. I doubt there are many paedos out there equally likely to come out expressing their preference for how much they like fucking babies....
    Whilst personally I wouldn't equate fox hunting with paedophilia I do agree with your general disgust at the pastime. I have lived practically my whole life in the country and do think in many ways it has been badly neglected by successive governments .

    I shoot game birds, rabbits and pigeon for food. I shoot rats and occasionally magpies for pest control. I would never consider killing or maiming an animal for fun. It always strikes me as akin to the old fashioned idea of kids pulling wings of insects or burning ants with a magnifying glass.
    Don't be silly. If you live in the country and shoot game you know foxes need controlling. If you went foxhunting you would discover that a member of the field virtually never sees a fox being killed, and if you tried to you would be sent home from most hunts for being weird. The tyson fantasy of animals being ripped apart for sport is exactly as accurate as saying that meat eaters eat meat because they revel in the thought of animals being killed in abbatoirs.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,973

    In all seriousness I don't get this.

    VAT is an EU tax. Any VAT registered company inside the EU is supposed to knock VAT off any cost of their goods when selling to a company outside the EU. That is how it works now and that is how it will, presumably, be supposed to work after we leave the EU. If I charge VAT on services or goods when (for example) I work in or sell into Norway the I am breaking the law.

    Whatever new arrangements the Government put in place for sales taxes in the UK post Brexit, if they are more onerous than the current arrangements that is not the fault of us leaving the EU. It is up to the Government to make sure they are fit for purpose.

    VAT isn't an EU tax, it's a UK tax which is EU-compatible and EU-mandated.

    The issue is not exports, but imports. Currently if you are a business which imports something from outside the EU, you have to pay VAT on it immediately. This of course is a VAT input so it's not a cost for a VAT-registered business, but it is a cash-flow issue because you pay the VAT now on the import but there may be a delay of up to four months before you get the input tax back in your VAT return. The complaint is that this will now apply to imports from the EU27.
    Um No. VAT is a sales tax that we had to adopt when we joined the EEC in 1973. Whilst we have some scope to vary rates and we have negotiated with the EU a series of opt outs, it is still operated under EU rules and a percentage of the revenue raised goes to the EU.

    My point is that the article implies that when we leave the EU, part of that process is that we will have to change the way in which we handle sales taxes and the only way to avoid that is to stay in the VAT scheme or in the Customs Union. The article says that explicitly. It is wrong. There are dozens of ways in which the Government could change things to help businesses, from scrapping it completely (which is obviously not going to happen) to changing the overall rules on imported goods so that VAT is not paid immediately on import. Or of course they could handle it in the way they are proposing. I am not clear on which is the best way to go but I am clear that the idea that we MUST adopt one specific successor scheme and the only way to avoid that is to stay in the Customs Union is simply rubbish
  • tysontyson Posts: 4,234
    @Richard_Tyndall.....

    I'm not equating fox hunting to paedophilia..granted both are pretty disgusting (though on different levels), but I'm just surprised about anyone rearing their head to express their support for something that is just so violent and cruel as fox hunting....not many people here could stomach watching a clip of a fox being ripped to shreds by a pack of hounds. I for one couldn't.

    I though do have some (genuine) admiration for people who conduct pest control. It's one off those things that you know has to be done for the greater good, but you'd rather not see or do it yourself, a bit like the role of health practitioners in a VD clinic.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 2,236
    edited January 6
    Ishmael_Z said:

    tyson said:

    So Mrs May isn't giving the country the vote to end the ban on foxhunting.

    I am desperately upset about that, as a passionate hunt supporter, but the game is up.

    You can't win when 85% of the country is against you, and even a majority of Tory members.

    That doesn't mean I agree with it (I never will) but, for now, there's no real alternative.
    Foxhunting is disgusting....this is nothing about class warfare, or any attempt to attack the landed classes...the terror and horror a of sentient mammal being ripped apart by a pack of hounds for a sport is absolutely disgraceful....

    But well done you for sticking up for what you like no matter how disgusting. I doubt there are many paedos out there equally likely to come out expressing their preference for how much they like fucking babies....
    Whilst personally I wouldn't equate fox hunting with paedophilia I do agree with your general disgust at the pastime. I have lived practically my whole life in the country and do think in many ways it has been badly neglected by successive governments .

    I shoot game birds, rabbits and pigeon for food. I shoot rats and occasionally magpies for pest control. I would never consider killing or maiming an animal for fun. It always strikes me as akin to the old fashioned idea of kids pulling wings of insects or burning ants with a magnifying glass.
    Don't be silly. If you live in the country and shoot game you know foxes need controlling. If you went foxhunting you would discover that a member of the field virtually never sees a fox being killed, and if you tried to you would be sent home from most hunts for being weird. The tyson fantasy of animals being ripped apart for sport is exactly as accurate as saying that meat eaters eat meat because they revel in the thought of animals being killed in abbatoirs.
    To suggest that foxhunting is in anyway a sensible approach for controlling foxes is frankly ludicrous. Dozens of people on horseback plus a pack of hounds spending half the day potnentially to kill one fox in a totally inhumane way? Or one man and a gun to do the job in an hour or so. The 'controlling foxes' argument for foxhunting is frankly pathetic.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,864

    tyson said:

    So Mrs May isn't giving the country the vote to end the ban on foxhunting.

    I am desperately upset about that, as a passionate hunt supporter, but the game is up.

    You can't win when 85% of the country is against you, and even a majority of Tory members.

    That doesn't mean I agree with it (I never will) but, for now, there's no real alternative.
    Foxhunting is disgusting....this is nothing about class warfare, or any attempt to attack the landed classes...the terror and horror a of sentient mammal being ripped apart by a pack of hounds for a sport is absolutely disgraceful....

    But well done you for sticking up for what you like no matter how disgusting. I doubt there are many paedos out there equally likely to come out expressing their preference for how much they like fucking babies....
    Whilst personally I wouldn't equate fox hunting with paedophilia I do agree with your general disgust at the pastime. I have lived practically my whole life in the country and do think in many ways it has been badly neglected by successive governments .

    I shoot game birds, rabbits and pigeon for food. I shoot rats and occasionally magpies for pest control. I would never consider killing or maiming an animal for fun. It always strikes me as akin to the old fashioned idea of kids pulling wings of insects or burning ants with a magnifying glass.
    I start from the point of view that hunting is a perfectly natural activity, including for humans, that has been going on for thousands millennia, often done with the aid of animals, such as Falcons, Dogs, Ferrets and Cormorants. And the Act still excludes hunting of rats and rabbits with dogs, incidentally.

    I don't see it in any way as being incompatible with being an animal lover. I support better treatment of farm animals, dislike overworked donkeys and horses, and support CCTV in abattoirs, for example. I think licenced, regulated hunting, which both Blair and Cameron would have proposed, was a sensible way forward.

    But, there isn't much point in pursuing a dialogue on this subject with one's implacable opponents. And the political battles have obviously now moved on.

    You can't win them all.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 25,685
    Ishmael_Z said:

    tyson said:

    So Mrs May isn't giving the country the vote to end the ban on foxhunting.

    I am desperately upset about that, as a passionate hunt supporter, but the game is up.

    You can't win when 85% of the country is against you, and even a majority of Tory members.

    That doesn't mean I agree with it (I never will) but, for now, there's no real alternative.
    Foxhunting is disgusting....this is nothing about class warfare, or any attempt to attack the landed classes...the terror and horror a of sentient mammal being ripped apart by a pack of hounds for a sport is absolutely disgraceful....

    But well done you for sticking up for what you like no matter how disgusting. I doubt there are many paedos out there equally likely to come out expressing their preference for how much they like fucking babies....
    Whilst personally I wouldn't equate fox hunting with paedophilia I do agree with your general disgust at the pastime. I have lived practically my whole life in the country and do think in many ways it has been badly neglected by successive governments .

    I shoot game birds, rabbits and pigeon for food. I shoot rats and occasionally magpies for pest control. I would never consider killing or maiming an animal for fun. It always strikes me as akin to the old fashioned idea of kids pulling wings of insects or burning ants with a magnifying glass.
    Don't be silly. If you live in the country and shoot game you know foxes need controlling. If you went foxhunting you would discover that a member of the field virtually never sees a fox being killed, and if you tried to you would be sent home from most hunts for being weird. The tyson fantasy of animals being ripped apart for sport is exactly as accurate as saying that meat eaters eat meat because they revel in the thought of animals being killed in abbatoirs.
    "Meat is murder" :innocent:
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 2,236

    So as I have already said this is nothing to do with us being forced to adopt these rules as the article implied. This is about the Government making a specific decision about how it will enforce its own revenue rules once we leave the EU.

    Not really, because it's hard to see how, after we've left the EU, the government could justify discriminating against imports from non-EU27 countries in VAT law.
    But they could apply the revised rules, not requiring up-front VAT payment, to all imports couldn't they?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 2,236

    Ishmael_Z said:

    tyson said:

    So Mrs May isn't giving the country the vote to end the ban on foxhunting.

    I am desperately upset about that, as a passionate hunt supporter, but the game is up.

    You can't win when 85% of the country is against you, and even a majority of Tory members.

    That doesn't mean I agree with it (I never will) but, for now, there's no real alternative.
    Foxhunting is disgusting....this is nothing about class warfare, or any attempt to attack the landed classes...the terror and horror a of sentient mammal being ripped apart by a pack of hounds for a sport is absolutely disgraceful....

    But well done you for sticking up for what you like no matter how disgusting. I doubt there are many paedos out there equally likely to come out expressing their preference for how much they like fucking babies....
    Whilst personally I wouldn't equate fox hunting with paedophilia I do agree with your general disgust at the pastime. I have lived practically my whole life in the country and do think in many ways it has been badly neglected by successive governments .

    I shoot game birds, rabbits and pigeon for food. I shoot rats and occasionally magpies for pest control. I would never consider killing or maiming an animal for fun. It always strikes me as akin to the old fashioned idea of kids pulling wings of insects or burning ants with a magnifying glass.
    Don't be silly. If you live in the country and shoot game you know foxes need controlling. If you went foxhunting you would discover that a member of the field virtually never sees a fox being killed, and if you tried to you would be sent home from most hunts for being weird. The tyson fantasy of animals being ripped apart for sport is exactly as accurate as saying that meat eaters eat meat because they revel in the thought of animals being killed in abbatoirs.
    "Meat is murder" :innocent:
    No one kills a fox to eat it, just saying.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,973
    Ishmael_Z said:

    tyson said:

    So Mrs May isn't giving the country the vote to end the ban on foxhunting.

    I am desperately upset about that, as a passionate hunt supporter, but the game is up.

    You can't win when 85% of the country is against you, and even a majority of Tory members.

    That doesn't mean I agree with it (I never will) but, for now, there's no real alternative.
    Foxhunting is disgusting....this is nothing about class warfare, or any attempt to attack the landed classes...the terror and horror a of sentient mammal being ripped apart by a pack of hounds for a sport is absolutely disgraceful....

    But well done you for sticking up for what you like no matter how disgusting. I doubt there are many paedos out there equally likely to come out expressing their preference for how much they like fucking babies....
    Whilst personally I wouldn't equate fox hunting with paedophilia I do agree with your general disgust at the pastime. I have lived practically my whole life in the country and do think in many ways it has been badly neglected by successive governments .

    I shoot game birds, rabbits and pigeon for food. I shoot rats and occasionally magpies for pest control. I would never consider killing or maiming an animal for fun. It always strikes me as akin to the old fashioned idea of kids pulling wings of insects or burning ants with a magnifying glass.
    Don't be silly. If you live in the country and shoot game you know foxes need controlling. If you went foxhunting you would discover that a member of the field virtually never sees a fox being killed, and if you tried to you would be sent home from most hunts for being weird. The tyson fantasy of animals being ripped apart for sport is exactly as accurate as saying that meat eaters eat meat because they revel in the thought of animals being killed in abbatoirs.
    I do know they need controlling. In some areas. Sometimes. In the area of Lincolnshire where I live fox numbers have dropped dramatically since the hunt ban, in part because the farmers are no longer letting them breed so they have something to hunt. They are also shooting a lot more foxes. The idea that the only way to control foxes (as and when they need it) is by chasing them with dogs is simply garbage.

    And having worked on fames and sometimes with hunts when I was younger I know very well that the idea of 'being in at the kill' is extremely popular.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,864
    Ishmael_Z said:

    tyson said:

    So Mrs May isn't giving the country the vote to end the ban on foxhunting.

    I am desperately upset about that, as a passionate hunt supporter, but the game is up.

    You can't win when 85% of the country is against you, and even a majority of Tory members.

    That doesn't mean I agree with it (I never will) but, for now, there's no real alternative.
    Foxhunting is disgusting....this is nothing about class warfare, or any attempt to attack the landed classes...the terror and horror a of sentient mammal being ripped apart by a pack of hounds for a sport is absolutely disgraceful....

    But well done you for sticking up for what you like no matter how disgusting. I doubt there are many paedos out there equally likely to come out expressing their preference for how much they like fucking babies....
    Whilst personally I wouldn't equate fox hunting with paedophilia I do agree with your general disgust at the pastime. I have lived practically my whole life in the country and do think in many ways it has been badly neglected by successive governments .

    I shoot game birds, rabbits and pigeon for food. I shoot rats and occasionally magpies for pest control. I would never consider killing or maiming an animal for fun. It always strikes me as akin to the old fashioned idea of kids pulling wings of insects or burning ants with a magnifying glass.
    Don't be silly. If you live in the country and shoot game you know foxes need controlling. If you went foxhunting you would discover that a member of the field virtually never sees a fox being killed, and if you tried to you would be sent home from most hunts for being weird. The tyson fantasy of animals being ripped apart for sport is exactly as accurate as saying that meat eaters eat meat because they revel in the thought of animals being killed in abbatoirs.
    Exactly. There is nothing intrinsically immoral or moral about it. It just depends on the social values of society at the time.

    One should also bear in mind that in the natural world, this takes place anyway entirely unimpeded by human observance.

    For example, wolves pack hunting moose in the Yukon.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,864

    Having said all that, have MPs like Nicky Morgan, and 'business groups', really not understood until this week how VAT works? 'Controversial legislation' , for heaven's sake? How on earth else would they expect VAT to work after Brexit?

    Nicky Morgan is a female George Osborne, without the newspaper.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 3,508



    Wait a second, where do you get that from?

    If you import from outside the EU then there is no VAT to pay unless the nation that exports it demands VAT. I pay a monthyl subscription for software licensing from America, as America has no VAT there is no VAT to pay on payment of the good - then equally of course no VAT to reclaim when I file my VAT return.

    It was my understanding that similarly there was no VAT on exports to outside the EU. If a company in the EU exports to America it was my understanding that no VAT applied. Surely once we exit that should be the case to us too unless a deal is made to say otherwise?

    I get it from VAT law and practical experience.

    As I said, this is about cash-flow on imports from the EU27. (It makes no difference to exports). Today, if you import a widget from the US, you pay VAT immediately on clearing customs, and then some time later (possibly three months later if you file quarterly) you can claim it back in your VAT return as a VAT input, and then effectively get the cash back when you pay your VAT bill about a month later. If you import a similar widget from Germany, you don't pay anything at the time of import, but when you file your VAT return you account for it but then immediately claim it back, so there's no cash-flow effect.
    So it affects cash-flow solely.
    If it only affects cash flow and businesses have more than 1 year to prepare - the presumably this is all very manageable?

  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 17,636

    Um No. VAT is a sales tax that we had to adopt when we joined the EEC in 1973. Whilst we have some scope to vary rates and we have negotiated with the EU a series of opt outs, it is still operated under EU rules and a percentage of the revenue raised goes to the EU.

    My point is that the article implies that when we leave the EU, part of that process is that we will have to change the way in which we handle sales taxes and the only way to avoid that is to stay in the VAT scheme or in the Customs Union. The article says that explicitly. It is wrong. There are dozens of ways in which the Government could change things to help businesses, from scrapping it completely (which is obviously not going to happen) to changing the overall rules on imported goods so that VAT is not paid immediately on import. Or of course they could handle it in the way they are proposing. I am not clear on which is the best way to go but I am clear that the idea that we MUST adopt one specific successor scheme and the only way to avoid that is to stay in the Customs Union is simply rubbish

    You are partly right. It's certainly true that the Customs Union is totally irrelevant (VAT has nothing much to do with the Customs Union). It's also true that we could change the rules to give a cash-flow boost to all importers, for example by giving importers longer to pay the VAT on imports from any country (but the taxman would I think be worried by that because of the potential for fraud). What the legislation proposes is the no-change option, whereby VAT is payable immediately on imports. My point is that this is hardly controversial, still less surprising, and it's not news that it would have a substantial cash-flow impact on (some) businesses.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 10,001
    TGOHF said:



    Hare coursing never seems to get quite the same attention.

    We banned it at the same time, and, for whatever reason, unlike with fox-hunting there wasn't much opposition.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 17,636

    Having said all that, have MPs like Nicky Morgan, and 'business groups', really not understood until this week how VAT works? 'Controversial legislation' , for heaven's sake? How on earth else would they expect VAT to work after Brexit?

    Nicky Morgan is a female George Osborne, without the newspaper.
    She really isn't! George Osborne is, with Peter Mandelson, the outstanding political operator of the last quarter century. Nicky Morgan, err, isn't.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 9,105
    rkrkrk said:



    Wait a second, where do you get that from?

    If you import from outside the EU then there is no VAT to pay unless the nation that exports it demands VAT. I pay a monthyl subscription for software licensing from America, as America has no VAT there is no VAT to pay on payment of the good - then equally of course no VAT to reclaim when I file my VAT return.

    It was my understanding that similarly there was no VAT on exports to outside the EU. If a company in the EU exports to America it was my understanding that no VAT applied. Surely once we exit that should be the case to us too unless a deal is made to say otherwise?

    I get it from VAT law and practical experience.

    As I said, this is about cash-flow on imports from the EU27. (It makes no difference to exports). Today, if you import a widget from the US, you pay VAT immediately on clearing customs, and then some time later (possibly three months later if you file quarterly) you can claim it back in your VAT return as a VAT input, and then effectively get the cash back when you pay your VAT bill about a month later. If you import a similar widget from Germany, you don't pay anything at the time of import, but when you file your VAT return you account for it but then immediately claim it back, so there's no cash-flow effect.
    So it affects cash-flow solely.
    If it only affects cash flow and businesses have more than 1 year to prepare - the presumably this is all very manageable?

    Quite. It makes the launch of a new centrist party (there must have been another one, recently, right?) hugely significant, by comparison.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 17,636
    rkrkrk said:



    Wait a second, where do you get that from?

    If you import from outside the EU then there is no VAT to pay unless the nation that exports it demands VAT. I pay a monthyl subscription for software licensing from America, as America has no VAT there is no VAT to pay on payment of the good - then equally of course no VAT to reclaim when I file my VAT return.

    It was my understanding that similarly there was no VAT on exports to outside the EU. If a company in the EU exports to America it was my understanding that no VAT applied. Surely once we exit that should be the case to us too unless a deal is made to say otherwise?

    I get it from VAT law and practical experience.

    As I said, this is about cash-flow on imports from the EU27. (It makes no difference to exports). Today, if you import a widget from the US, you pay VAT immediately on clearing customs, and then some time later (possibly three months later if you file quarterly) you can claim it back in your VAT return as a VAT input, and then effectively get the cash back when you pay your VAT bill about a month later. If you import a similar widget from Germany, you don't pay anything at the time of import, but when you file your VAT return you account for it but then immediately claim it back, so there's no cash-flow effect.
    So it affects cash-flow solely.
    If it only affects cash flow and businesses have more than 1 year to prepare - the presumably this is all very manageable?

    Yes, I'd have thought so, although some businesses will find it a pain.

    (Also I think they'll have three years to prepare, because I imagine the current arrangements will apply during the transition period).
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,864

    Having said all that, have MPs like Nicky Morgan, and 'business groups', really not understood until this week how VAT works? 'Controversial legislation' , for heaven's sake? How on earth else would they expect VAT to work after Brexit?

    Nicky Morgan is a female George Osborne, without the newspaper.
    She really isn't! George Osborne is, with Peter Mandelson, the outstanding political operator of the last quarter century. Nicky Morgan, err, isn't.
    Ha! Fair enough. Although I'm not sure I'd rate Osborne that highly.

    She has the same sense of vendetta for May, is what I meant, and pursues it at every opportunity, whilst they both believe they could have been leader.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 2,236

    Ishmael_Z said:

    tyson said:

    So Mrs May isn't giving the country the vote to end the ban on foxhunting.

    I am desperately upset about that, as a passionate hunt supporter, but the game is up.

    You can't win when 85% of the country is against you, and even a majority of Tory members.

    That doesn't mean I agree with it (I never will) but, for now, there's no real alternative.
    Foxhunting is disgusting....this is nothing about class warfare, or any attempt to attack the landed classes...the terror and horror a of sentient mammal being ripped apart by a pack of hounds for a sport is absolutely disgraceful....

    But well done you for sticking up for what you like no matter how disgusting. I doubt there are many paedos out there equally likely to come out expressing their preference for how much they like fucking babies....
    Whilst personally I wouldn't equate fox hunting with paedophilia I do agree with your general disgust at the pastime. I have lived practically my whole life in the country and do think in many ways it has been badly neglected by successive governments .

    I shoot game birds, rabbits and pigeon for food. I shoot rats and occasionally magpies for pest control. I would never consider killing or maiming an animal for fun. It always strikes me as akin to the old fashioned idea of kids pulling wings of insects or burning ants with a magnifying glass.
    Don't be silly. If you live in the country and shoot game you know foxes need controlling. If you went foxhunting you would discover that a member of the field virtually never sees a fox being killed, and if you tried to you would be sent home from most hunts for being weird. The tyson fantasy of animals being ripped apart for sport is exactly as accurate as saying that meat eaters eat meat because they revel in the thought of animals being killed in abbatoirs.
    Exactly. There is nothing intrinsically immoral or moral about it. It just depends on the social values of society at the time.

    One should also bear in mind that in the natural world, this takes place anyway entirely unimpeded by human observance.

    For example, wolves pack hunting moose in the Yukon.
    I notice @Foxy is keeping a low profile in this debate. Has he gone to ground?
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 4,521
    edited January 6

    Ishmael_Z said:

    tyson said:

    So Mrs May isn't giving the country the vote to end the ban on foxhunting.

    I am desperately upset about that, as a passionate hunt supporter, but the game is up.

    You can't win when 85% of the country is against you, and even a majority of Tory members.

    That doesn't mean I agree with it (I never will) but, for now, there's no real alternative.
    Foxhunting is disgusting....this is nothing about class warfare, or any attempt to attack the landed classes...the terror and horror a of sentient mammal being ripped apart by a pack of hounds for a sport is absolutely disgraceful....

    But well done you for sticking up for what you like no matter how disgusting. I doubt there are many paedos out there equally likely to come out expressing their preference for how much they like fucking babies....
    Whilst personally I wouldn't equate fox hunting with paedophilia I do agree with your general disgust at the pastime. I have lived practically my whole life in the country and do think in many ways it has been badly neglected by successive governments .

    I shoot game birds, rabbits and pigeon for food. I shoot rats and occasionally magpies for pest control. I would never consider killing or maiming an animal for fun. It always strikes me as akin to the old fashioned idea of kids pulling wings of insects or burning ants with a magnifying glass.
    Don't be silly. If you live in the country and shoot game you know foxes need controlling. If you went foxhunting you would discover that a member of the field virtually never sees a fox being killed, and if you tried to you would be sent home from most hunts for being weird. The tyson fantasy of animals being ripped apart for sport is exactly as accurate as saying that meat eaters eat meat because they revel in the thought of animals being killed in abbatoirs.
    To suggest that foxhunting is in anyway a sensible approach for controlling foxes is frankly ludicrous. Dozens of people on horseback plus a pack of hounds spending half the day potneitally to kill one fox in a totally inhumane way? Or one man and a gun to do the job in an hour or so. The 'controlling foxes' argument for foxhunting is frankly pathetic.
    You really, really don't know what you are talking about. How do you think most hunted foxes are killed?* Simple question, and I bet you get it wrong.

    *In using the present tense I am of course referring to Ireland, where uncoincidentally I spend many weekends around this time of year.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,973

    Um No. VAT is a sales tax that we had to adopt when we joined the EEC in 1973. Whilst we have some scope to vary rates and we have negotiated with the EU a series of opt outs, it is still operated under EU rules and a percentage of the revenue raised goes to the EU.

    My point is that the article implies that when we leave the EU, part of that process is that we will have to change the way in which we handle sales taxes and the only way to avoid that is to stay in the VAT scheme or in the Customs Union. The article says that explicitly. It is wrong. There are dozens of ways in which the Government could change things to help businesses, from scrapping it completely (which is obviously not going to happen) to changing the overall rules on imported goods so that VAT is not paid immediately on import. Or of course they could handle it in the way they are proposing. I am not clear on which is the best way to go but I am clear that the idea that we MUST adopt one specific successor scheme and the only way to avoid that is to stay in the Customs Union is simply rubbish

    You are partly right. It's certainly true that the Customs Union is totally irrelevant (VAT has nothing much to do with the Customs Union). It's also true that we could change the rules to give a cash-flow boost to all importers, for example by giving importers longer to pay the VAT on imports from any country (but the taxman would I think be worried by that because of the potential for fraud). What the legislation proposes is the no-change option, whereby VAT is payable immediately on imports. My point is that this is hardly controversial, still less surprising, and it's not news that it would have a substantial cash-flow impact on (some) businesses.
    I do agree with you on that. My main argument as I said was the claim that the only solution to this is to stay in the Customs Union or the VAT scheme. In fact all solutions to this issue are directly in the hands of the UK Government after Brexit.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,864

    Ishmael_Z said:

    tyson said:

    So Mrs May isn't giving the country the vote to end the ban on foxhunting.

    I am desperately upset about that, as a passionate hunt supporter, but the game is up.

    You can't win when 85% of the country is against you, and even a majority of Tory members.

    That doesn't mean I agree with it (I never will) but, for now, there's no real alternative.
    Foxhunting is disgusting....this is nothing about class warfare, or any attempt to attack the landed classes...the terror and horror a of sentient mammal being ripped apart by a pack of hounds for a sport is absolutely disgraceful....

    But well done you for sticking up for what you like no matter how disgusting. I doubt there are many paedos out there equally likely to come out expressing their preference for how much they like fucking babies....
    Whilst personally I wouldn't equate fox hunting with paedophilia I do agree with your general disgust at the pastime. I have lived practically my whole life in the country and do think in many ways it has been badly neglected by successive governments .

    I shoot game birds, rabbits and pigeon for food. I shoot rats and occasionally magpies for pest control. I would never consider killing or maiming an animal for fun. It always strikes me as akin to the old fashioned idea of kids pulling wings of insects or burning ants with a magnifying glass.
    Don't be silly. If you live in the country and shoot game you know foxes need controlling. If you went foxhunting you would discover that a member of the field virtually never sees a fox being killed, and if you tried to you would be sent home from most hunts for being weird. The tyson fantasy of animals being ripped apart for sport is exactly as accurate as saying that meat eaters eat meat because they revel in the thought of animals being killed in abbatoirs.
    Exactly. There is nothing intrinsically immoral or moral about it. It just depends on the social values of society at the time.

    One should also bear in mind that in the natural world, this takes place anyway entirely unimpeded by human observance.

    For example, wolves pack hunting moose in the Yukon.
    I notice @Foxy is keeping a low profile in this debate. Has he gone to ground?
    I'll find him.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 10,001
    Ishmael_Z said:



    I can't get into Star Wars.

    And, yes, I know I'm never supposed to admit that. But, I can't.

    I am with you on that. Same story every time, and the comedy robots and anthropomorphised animals may have been clever and funny back in the 70s, but nowadays they give me the same embarrassed unease as watching a repeat of the Black & White Minstrel Show would. The only thing that changes is the length of the fecking things; 2 hours and 35 minutes ferfecksake. And further trilogies in the works, I understand.
    +1. But most people I know absolutely love it.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 16,984

    TGOHF said:



    Hare coursing never seems to get quite the same attention.

    We banned it at the same time, and, for whatever reason, unlike with fox-hunting there wasn't much opposition.
    Difficult to know who the white hats are in hare coursing though - the fluffy hares nibbling carrots or the viscous thugs training their dogs to rip their throats out...
  • tysontyson Posts: 4,234
    @Ishmael....mate, shouldn't foxhunters see what happens when a pack of hounds rip apart a sentient mammal? I had the misfortune one winter to come across (or worse listen to the screams) of a pack of hounds attacking a wounded boar that had been shot but still alive

    @casino....you have been personally pretty horrible and abusive to me personally in the past, so you highty mighty little platitudes to the noble left ring quite hollow....
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 16,698

    Having said all that, have MPs like Nicky Morgan, and 'business groups', really not understood until this week how VAT works? 'Controversial legislation' , for heaven's sake? How on earth else would they expect VAT to work after Brexit?

    Nicky Morgan is a female George Osborne, without the newspaper.
    She really isn't! George Osborne is, with Peter Mandelson, the outstanding political operator of the last quarter century. Nicky Morgan, err, isn't.
    Ha! Fair enough. Although I'm not sure I'd rate Osborne that highly.
    Implying you would rate Mandelson that highly?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,864

    TGOHF said:



    Hare coursing never seems to get quite the same attention.

    We banned it at the same time, and, for whatever reason, unlike with fox-hunting there wasn't much opposition.
    Probably because you weren't rabbiting on it about it at the time.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 13,546

    So as I have already said this is nothing to do with us being forced to adopt these rules as the article implied. This is about the Government making a specific decision about how it will enforce its own revenue rules once we leave the EU.

    Not really, because it's hard to see how, after we've left the EU, the government could justify discriminating against imports from non-EU27 countries in VAT law.
    It could be done under a MFN basis assuming we do sign a trade deal. Either way it's hardly about deal, it's literally money companies will get back anyway.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,864

    Ishmael_Z said:

    tyson said:

    So Mrs May isn't giving the country the vote to end the ban on foxhunting.

    I am desperately upset about that, as a passionate hunt supporter, but the game is up.

    You can't win when 85% of the country is against you, and even a majority of Tory members.

    That doesn't mean I agree with it (I never will) but, for now, there's no real alternative.
    Foxhunting is disgusting....this is nothing about class warfare, or any attempt to attack the landed classes...the terror and horror a of sentient mammal being ripped apart by a pack of hounds for a sport is absolutely disgraceful....

    But well done you for sticking up for what you like no matter how disgusting. I doubt there are many paedos out there equally likely to come out expressing their preference for how much they like fucking babies....
    Whilst
    Don't be silly. If you live in the country and shoot game you know foxes need controlling. If you went foxhunting you would discover that a member of the field virtually never sees a fox being killed, and if you tried to you would be sent home from most hunts for being weird. The tyson fantasy of animals being ripped apart for sport is exactly as accurate as saying that meat eaters eat meat because they revel in the thought of animals being killed in abbatoirs.
    "Meat is murder" :innocent:
    No one kills a fox to eat it, just saying.
    Animals are killed for all sorts of reasons that we wouldn't accept for humanity: for selective breeding, to maintain the health of the herd, to avoid the spread of disease, to avoid suffering, to avoid overhunting or overgrazing, and for microeconomic reasons.

    Now, it's perfectly possible that society's values move against all those things in the next 20-30 years and, if animal sentience is pursued to its logical conclusion, that rearing animals for slaughter (or to even exploit for dairy or wool produce) is in and of itself unethical, and we should all become vegetarian, perhaps tolerating the synthesis and growth of artificial meat products in laboratories.

    But, let's not pretend that wouldn't have a huge impact on all our lifestyles, not to mention the ecosystem, and be anything but than an ethics based argument, which are never absolute and change all the time.
  • tysontyson Posts: 4,234
    edited January 6

    Ishmael_Z said:



    I can't get into Star Wars.

    And, yes, I know I'm never supposed to admit that. But, I can't.

    I am with you on that. Same story every time, and the comedy robots and anthropomorphised animals may have been clever and funny back in the 70s, but nowadays they give me the same embarrassed unease as watching a repeat of the Black & White Minstrel Show would. The only thing that changes is the length of the fecking things; 2 hours and 35 minutes ferfecksake. And further trilogies in the works, I understand.
    +1. But most people I know absolutely love it.
    I don't know which would be worse for me...spending 2 hours watching a James Bond Movie, a Star Wars Movie, any (and I mean any) comic hero Movie, a Pirates of the Caribbean Movie, a RomCom, a TeenFlick, a ChickFlick, a Hangover movie, a pixel movie, a Harry Potter Movie, a musical of any kind, any sequel ever made of any movie (apart from the Godfather of course)...in all these cases I would prefer going for a long walk provided I didn't encounter packs off dogs killing animals....
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,864

    Having said all that, have MPs like Nicky Morgan, and 'business groups', really not understood until this week how VAT works? 'Controversial legislation' , for heaven's sake? How on earth else would they expect VAT to work after Brexit?

    Nicky Morgan is a female George Osborne, without the newspaper.
    She really isn't! George Osborne is, with Peter Mandelson, the outstanding political operator of the last quarter century. Nicky Morgan, err, isn't.
    Ha! Fair enough. Although I'm not sure I'd rate Osborne that highly.
    Implying you would rate Mandelson that highly?
    Actually, I probably would rate him slightly higher, yes.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 17,636
    edited January 6
    MaxPB said:

    So as I have already said this is nothing to do with us being forced to adopt these rules as the article implied. This is about the Government making a specific decision about how it will enforce its own revenue rules once we leave the EU.

    Not really, because it's hard to see how, after we've left the EU, the government could justify discriminating against imports from non-EU27 countries in VAT law.
    It could be done under a MFN basis assuming we do sign a trade deal. Either way it's hardly about deal, it's literally money companies will get back anyway.
    It is money they'll get back, but don't underestimate the hassle and cost factor for small companies.

    I've been there and bear the scars. The real pain for small companies is that in practice you have to set up a bank guarantee to cover the VAT and any duties, and for that the bank will typically want a personal guarantee and probably a charge on directors' assets etc etc. Many small companies which currently deal only with the EU are spared all that at the moment.

    But Brexit means Brexit. As I said, what on earth else does anyone expect?
  • Got to laugh at this VAT thing. It's the apparent shock from government benches that this will negatively impact anyone. Like all these other business experts who keep popping up who insist Brexit will screw them - well they would say that wouldn't they! Cash flow might drive some of them under? So what, we've driven lots of businesses under for far worse reasons than Brexit...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,864
    tyson said:

    @Ishmael....mate, shouldn't foxhunters see what happens when a pack of hounds rip apart a sentient mammal? I had the misfortune one winter to come across (or worse listen to the screams) of a pack of hounds attacking a wounded boar that had been shot but still alive

    @casino....you have been personally pretty horrible and abusive to me personally in the past, so you highty mighty little platitudes to the noble left ring quite hollow....

    Interesting that, despite not mentioning you by name, you saw yourself as falling into that category.

    Water off a duck's back, mate; I'm past that.

    I used to get annoyed at your personal attacks, but now I know you normally log-on after you've polished off a bottle or two (and it is that hour), read a post you don't like, which makes you very upset, and then post a comment attacking the poster who's made it.

    That's when you're not pontificating over your guilt at your own financial success, and worrying about how to best maintain your property empire post Brexit.

    I've learned you're a bit of a sensitive soul when one responds in kind. So I take it as nothing more than a sign of your honesty and passion.

    I'm sure you're a very decent chap at heart.
  • tysontyson Posts: 4,234


    No one kills a fox to eat it, just saying.

    Animals are killed for all sorts of reasons that we wouldn't accept for humanity: for selective breeding, to maintain the health of the herd, to avoid the spread of disease, to avoid suffering, to avoid overhunting or overgrazing, and for microeconomic reasons.

    Now, it's perfectly possible that society's values move against all those things in the next 20-30 years and, if animal sentience is pursued to its logical conclusion, that rearing animals for slaughter (or to even exploit for dairy or wool produce) is in and of itself unethical, and we should all become vegetarian, perhaps tolerating the synthesis and growth of artificial meat products in laboratories.

    But, let's not pretend that wouldn't have a huge impact on all our lifestyles, not to mention the ecosystem, and be anything but than an ethics based argument, which are never absolute and change all the time.

    @casino

    You are right, ethics evolves over time...like drowning women, or attitudes to capital punishment (though Brexit voters are a bit slow on this one)...

    I am convinced in the future people will just not stomach or tolerate killing sentient mammals to eat, especially when there are alternatives
  • tysontyson Posts: 4,234

    tyson said:

    @Ishmael....mate, shouldn't foxhunters see what happens when a pack of hounds rip apart a sentient mammal? I had the misfortune one winter to come across (or worse listen to the screams) of a pack of hounds attacking a wounded boar that had been shot but still alive

    @casino....you have been personally pretty horrible and abusive to me personally in the past, so you highty mighty little platitudes to the noble left ring quite hollow....

    Interesting that, despite not mentioning you by name, you saw yourself as falling into that category.

    Water off a duck's back, mate; I'm past that.

    I used to get annoyed at your personal attacks, but now I know you normally log-on after you've polished off a bottle or two (and it is that hour), read a post you don't like, which makes you very upset, and then post a comment attacking the poster who's made it.

    That's when you're not pontificating over your guilt at your own financial success, and worrying about how to best maintain your property empire post Brexit.

    I've learned you're a bit of a sensitive soul when one responds in kind. So I take it as nothing more than a sign of your honesty and passion.

    I'm sure you're a very decent chap at heart.
    Whatever

  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 227

    Election night was the best political night of my life, actually the perfect result in many ways as a Corbyn fan, a majority was too much of a stretch this soon but leaving the Tories no majority and unpopular coalition partners neutralising SNP coalition jibe and having to deal with Brexit and any fall out would seem the almost perfect setup for the next election. Also great result for justifying Corbyn supporters who had been dismissed for a couple of years.

    I think you misunderstand my post, it was the perfect result because Labour just about didn't win, which was close considering other parties aside from DUP wouldn't back the Tories.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 20,870

    Ishmael_Z said:

    tyson said:

    So Mrs May isn't giving the country the vote to end the ban on foxhunting.

    I am desperately upset about that, as a passionate hunt supporter, but the game is up.

    You can't win when 85% of the country is against you, and even a majority of Tory members.

    That doesn't mean I agree with it (I never will) but, for now, there's no real alternative.
    Foxhunting is disgusting....this is nothing about class warfare, or any attempt to attack the landed classes...the terror and horror a of sentient mammal being ripped apart by a pack of hounds for a sport is absolutely disgraceful....

    But well done you for sticking up for what you like no matter how disgusting. I doubt there are many paedos out there equally likely to come out expressing their preference for how much they like fucking babies....
    Whilst personally I wouldn't equate fox hunting with paedophilia I do agree with your general disgust at the pastime. I have lived practically my whole life in the country and do think in many ways it has been badly neglected by successive governments .

    I shoot game birds, rabbits and pigeon for food. I shoot rats and occasionally magpies for pest control. I would never consider killing or maiming an animal for fun. It always strikes me as akin to the old fashioned idea of kids pulling wings of insects or burning ants with a magnifying glass.
    Don't be silly. If you live in the country and shoot game you know foxes need controlling. If you went foxhunting you would discover that a member of the field virtually never sees a fox being killed, and if you tried to you would be sent home from most hunts for being weird. The tyson fantasy of animals being ripped apart for sport is exactly as accurate as saying that meat eaters eat meat because they revel in the thought of animals being killed in abbatoirs.
    "Meat is murder" :innocent:
    No one kills a fox to eat it, just saying.
    Is fox edible?
  • I reckon Jo Johnson is doomed now.

    The tweet that threatens to end Mr Young’s appointment stems from 2009, when Cowell was filmed in Kenya with children scavenging from a rubbish dump to survive. The pop mogul called it ‘hell on Earth’.

    A female Twitter user tweeted she had ‘gone through 5 boxes of Kleenex’ watching the harrowing scenes. Minutes later, just after midnight, Young tweeted a sarcastic and sick response, saying: ‘Me Too, I havn’t [sic] w***** so much in ages.’

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5242487/Theresa-Mays-disgust-student-tsars-sordid-tweets.html
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 16,698

    I reckon Jo Johnson is doomed now.

    It's bad news Chez Gove too.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 773
    edited January 7

    Ishmael_Z said:

    tyson said:

    So Mrs May isn't giving the country the vote to end the ban on foxhunting.

    I am desperately upset about that, as a passionate hunt supporter, but the game is up.

    You can't win when 85% of the country is against you, and even a majority of Tory members.

    That doesn't mean I agree with it (I never will) but, for now, there's no real alternative.
    Foxhunting is disgusting....this is nothing about class warfare, or any attempt to attack the landed classes...the terror and horror a of sentient mammal being ripped apart by a pack of hounds for a sport is absolutely disgraceful....

    But well done you for sticking up for what you like no matter how disgusting. I doubt there are many paedos out there equally likely to come out expressing their preference for how much they like fucking babies....
    Whilst personally I wouldn't equate fox hunting with paedophilia I do agree with your general disgust at the pastime. I have lived practically my whole life in the country and do think in many ways it has been badly neglected by successive governments .

    I shoot game birds, rabbits and pigeon for food. I shoot rats and occasionally magpies for pest control. I would never consider killing or maiming an animal for fun. It always strikes me as akin to the old fashioned idea of kids pulling wings of insects or burning ants with a magnifying glass.
    Don't be silly. If you live in the country and shoot game you know foxes need controlling. If you went foxhunting you would discover that a member of the field virtually never sees a fox being killed, and if you tried to you would be sent home from most hunts for being weird. The tyson fantasy of animals being ripped apart for sport is exactly as accurate as saying that meat eaters eat meat because they revel in the thought of animals being killed in abbatoirs.
    Exactly. There is nothing intrinsically immoral or moral about it. It just depends on the social values of society at the time.

    One should also bear in mind that in the natural world, this takes place anyway entirely unimpeded by human observance.

    For example, wolves pack hunting moose in the Yukon.
    I notice @Foxy is keeping a low profile in this debate. Has he gone to ground?
    No, just for a 12th night party.

    I have a pretty low opinion of foxhunting, which is a needlesly cruel sport, but I am not vegetarian and do wear leather. However I am generally not keen on banning things, even things that I despise, as I am a Liberal. I wouldn't rescind the ban, but if it was, I wouldn't lose sleep.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 20,895

    I reckon Jo Johnson is doomed now.

    The tweet that threatens to end Mr Young’s appointment stems from 2009, when Cowell was filmed in Kenya with children scavenging from a rubbish dump to survive. The pop mogul called it ‘hell on Earth’.

    A female Twitter user tweeted she had ‘gone through 5 boxes of Kleenex’ watching the harrowing scenes. Minutes later, just after midnight, Young tweeted a sarcastic and sick response, saying: ‘Me Too, I havn’t [sic] w***** so much in ages.’

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5242487/Theresa-Mays-disgust-student-tsars-sordid-tweets.html

    Well, I laughed.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 38,230
    edited January 7

    Chris Grayling as First Secretary of State.

    Seriously I give up, that bell end has blood on his hands.

    If Grayling does become First Secretary of State you heard it here first!

    Though the Mirror seems to think it will be Hammond. Rudd as Chancellor with Hunt getting her old job would suggest she is May's personal choice to succeed her. Anne Milton said to get Health.
  • rcs1000 said:

    I reckon Jo Johnson is doomed now.

    The tweet that threatens to end Mr Young’s appointment stems from 2009, when Cowell was filmed in Kenya with children scavenging from a rubbish dump to survive. The pop mogul called it ‘hell on Earth’.

    A female Twitter user tweeted she had ‘gone through 5 boxes of Kleenex’ watching the harrowing scenes. Minutes later, just after midnight, Young tweeted a sarcastic and sick response, saying: ‘Me Too, I havn’t [sic] w***** so much in ages.’

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5242487/Theresa-Mays-disgust-student-tsars-sordid-tweets.html

    Well, I laughed.
    Some people get offended way too easily, particularly when they have agendas.

    I'll never forget the grief I got on here when I repeated your joke about the Oscar Pistorious shooting.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 20,895

    rcs1000 said:

    I reckon Jo Johnson is doomed now.

    The tweet that threatens to end Mr Young’s appointment stems from 2009, when Cowell was filmed in Kenya with children scavenging from a rubbish dump to survive. The pop mogul called it ‘hell on Earth’.

    A female Twitter user tweeted she had ‘gone through 5 boxes of Kleenex’ watching the harrowing scenes. Minutes later, just after midnight, Young tweeted a sarcastic and sick response, saying: ‘Me Too, I havn’t [sic] w***** so much in ages.’

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5242487/Theresa-Mays-disgust-student-tsars-sordid-tweets.html

    Well, I laughed.
    Some people get offended way too easily, particularly when they have agendas.

    I'll never forget the grief I got on here when I repeated your joke about the Oscar Pistorious shooting.
    That was a really good joke.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 38,230
    HYUFD said:

    Chris Grayling as First Secretary of State.

    Seriously I give up, that bell end has blood on his hands.

    If Grayling does become First Secretary of State you heard it here first!

    Though the Mirror seems to think it will be Hammond. Rudd as Chancellor with Hunt getting her old job would suggest she is May's personal choice to succeed her. Anne Milton said to get Health.
    The Sunday Times though suggests a much less dramatic reshuffle with the top 3 all staying in post
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 6,817
    Can I let my frustration of the England cricket team out on here,sack Joe root has captain, just can't understand what he's doing with the bowling this morning.

    Let the guy concentrate on his batting and making big scores.

    And the selectors and coach must come into question.
  • rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I reckon Jo Johnson is doomed now.

    The tweet that threatens to end Mr Young’s appointment stems from 2009, when Cowell was filmed in Kenya with children scavenging from a rubbish dump to survive. The pop mogul called it ‘hell on Earth’.

    A female Twitter user tweeted she had ‘gone through 5 boxes of Kleenex’ watching the harrowing scenes. Minutes later, just after midnight, Young tweeted a sarcastic and sick response, saying: ‘Me Too, I havn’t [sic] w***** so much in ages.’

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5242487/Theresa-Mays-disgust-student-tsars-sordid-tweets.html

    Well, I laughed.
    Some people get offended way too easily, particularly when they have agendas.

    I'll never forget the grief I got on here when I repeated your joke about the Oscar Pistorious shooting.
    That was a really good joke.
    It was. I got into trouble at work this week.

    Me: You know it's cold in Manchester when the ladies of Salford start wearing knickers.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 4,646
    tyson said:

    Ishmael_Z said:



    I can't get into Star Wars.

    And, yes, I know I'm never supposed to admit that. But, I can't.

    I am with you on that. Same story every time, and the comedy robots and anthropomorphised animals may have been clever and funny back in the 70s, but nowadays they give me the same embarrassed unease as watching a repeat of the Black & White Minstrel Show would. The only thing that changes is the length of the fecking things; 2 hours and 35 minutes ferfecksake. And further trilogies in the works, I understand.
    +1. But most people I know absolutely love it.
    I don't know which would be worse for me...spending 2 hours watching a James Bond Movie, a Star Wars Movie, any (and I mean any) comic hero Movie, a Pirates of the Caribbean Movie, a RomCom, a TeenFlick, a ChickFlick, a Hangover movie, a pixel movie, a Harry Potter Movie, a musical of any kind, any sequel ever made of any movie (apart from the Godfather of course)...in all these cases I would prefer going for a long walk provided I didn't encounter packs off dogs killing animals....
    So, you're not coming to see Star Royale Sith Bridesmaids and the Goblet of Tides 2, then?

    It's got Johnny Depp and Hayden Christensen in it. What could possibly go wrong?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 4,646

    rcs1000 said:

    I reckon Jo Johnson is doomed now.

    The tweet that threatens to end Mr Young’s appointment stems from 2009, when Cowell was filmed in Kenya with children scavenging from a rubbish dump to survive. The pop mogul called it ‘hell on Earth’.

    A female Twitter user tweeted she had ‘gone through 5 boxes of Kleenex’ watching the harrowing scenes. Minutes later, just after midnight, Young tweeted a sarcastic and sick response, saying: ‘Me Too, I havn’t [sic] w***** so much in ages.’

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5242487/Theresa-Mays-disgust-student-tsars-sordid-tweets.html

    Well, I laughed.
    Some people get offended way too easily, particularly when they have agendas.

    I'll never forget the grief I got on here when I repeated your joke about the Oscar Pistorious shooting.
    Well to be fair, you didn't have a leg to stand on.

    Ah, my coat...
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 20,870
    edited January 7

    Can I let my frustration of the England cricket team out on here,sack Joe root has captain, just can't understand what he's doing with the bowling this morning.

    Let the guy concentrate on his batting and making big scores.

    And the selectors and coach must come into question.

    Yes, they've been awful on this tour. I expect them to get bowled out for 150 today and lose by an innings.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 18,490
    AndyJS said:

    Can I let my frustration of the England cricket team out on here,sack Joe root has captain, just can't understand what he's doing with the bowling this morning.

    Let the guy concentrate on his batting and making big scores.

    And the selectors and coach must come into question.

    Yes, they've been awful on this tour. I expect them to get bowled out for 150 today and lose by an innings.
    When Cummins starts to look like Warner you have to accept that we have no bowling attack worthy of the name. This is utterly humiliating.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 18,663

    In all seriousness I don't get this.

    VAT is an EU tax. Any VAT registered company inside the EU is supposed to knock VAT off any cost of their goods when selling to a company outside the EU. That is how it works now and that is how it will, presumably, be supposed to work after we leave the EU. If I charge VAT on services or goods when (for example) I work in or sell into Norway the I am breaking the law.

    Whatever new arrangements the Government put in place for sales taxes in the UK post Brexit, if they are more onerous than the current arrangements that is not the fault of us leaving the EU. It is up to the Government to make sure they are fit for purpose.

    VAT isn't an EU tax, it's a UK tax which is EU-compatible and EU-mandated.

    The issue is not exports, but imports. Currently if you are a business which imports something from outside the EU, you have to pay VAT on it immediately. This of course is a VAT input so it's not a cost for a VAT-registered business, but it is a cash-flow issue because you pay the VAT now on the import but there may be a delay of up to four months before you get the input tax back in your VAT return. The complaint is that this will now apply to imports from the EU27.
    Wait a second, where do you get that from?

    If you import from outside the EU then there is no VAT to pay unless the nation that exports it demands VAT. I pay a monthyl subscription for software licensing from America, as America has no VAT there is no VAT to pay on payment of the good - then equally of course no VAT to reclaim when I file my VAT return.

    It was my understanding that similarly there was no VAT on exports to outside the EU. If a company in the EU exports to America it was my understanding that no VAT applied. Surely once we exit that should be the case to us too unless a deal is made to say otherwise?
    The UK charges VAT on goods imported from America - customs have done that to me a couple of times with gifts etc
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 18,663

    Ishmael_Z said:

    tyson said:

    So Mrs May isn't giving the country the vote to end the ban on foxhunting.

    I am desperately upset about that, as a passionate hunt supporter, but the game is up.

    You can't win when 85% of the country is against you, and even a majority of Tory members.

    That doesn't mean I agree with it (I never will) but, for now, there's no real alternative.
    Foxhunting is disgusting....this is nothing about class warfare, or any attempt to attack the landed classes...the terror and horror a of sentient mammal being ripped apart by a pack of hounds for a sport is absolutely disgraceful....

    But well done you for sticking up for what you like no matter how disgusting. I doubt there are many paedos out there equally likely to come out expressing their preference for how much they like fucking babies....
    Whilst
    Don't be silly. If you live in the country and shoot game you know foxes need controlling. If you went foxhunting you would discover that a member of the field virtually never sees a fox being killed, and if you tried to you would be sent home from most hunts for being weird. The tyson fantasy of animals being ripped apart for sport is exactly as accurate as saying that meat eaters eat meat because they revel in the thought of animals being killed in abbatoirs.
    "Meat is murder" :innocent:
    No one kills a fox to eat it, just saying.
    Animals are killed for all sorts of reasons that we wouldn't accept for humanity: for selective breeding, to maintain the health of the herd, to avoid the spread of disease, to avoid suffering, to avoid overhunting or overgrazing, and for microeconomic reasons.

    Now, it's perfectly possible that society's values move against all those things in the next 20-30 years and, if animal sentience is pursued to its logical conclusion, that rearing animals for slaughter (or to even exploit for dairy or wool produce) is in and of itself unethical, and we should all become vegetarian, perhaps tolerating the synthesis and growth of artificial meat products in laboratories.

    But, let's not pretend that wouldn't have a huge impact on all our lifestyles, not to mention the ecosystem, and be anything but than an ethics based argument, which are never absolute and change all the time.
    In 30 years we’ll be eating insect protein and synthetic steak
This discussion has been closed.