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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » And so to re-shuffle day unless the media’s being very badly m

SystemSystem Posts: 3,967
edited January 8 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » And so to re-shuffle day unless the media’s being very badly misled

I can’t remember a reshuffle that has been trailed as long this one. On Saturday David Herdson very rightly set out the reasons why Theresa May should not be holding a reshuffle so soon after the general election.

Read the full story here


«134

Comments

  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 3,237
    Dont see the point of a mini reshuffle.

    IMO she should take on Boris.
    If he’s the only one she demotes - what’s he going to do?
    Put Steve Baker in at FCO (or some other leaver) to maintain the balance.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 26,197
    Second! Like Remain!

    Some might argue that Osborne’s subsequent behaviour and his obsessive personal vendetta (the day of the rail fare increases that story was relegated to page 6 of his freesheet while a “May blow” story on local election polling banished it from the front page) vindicates May’s decision.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 4,239

    Second! Like Remain!

    Some might argue that Osborne’s subsequent behaviour and his obsessive personal vendetta (the day of the rail fare increases that story was relegated to page 6 of his freesheet while a “May blow” story on local election polling banished it from the front page) vindicates May’s decision.

    Maybe her pettiness helped caused the other.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 26,197

    Second! Like Remain!

    Some might argue that Osborne’s subsequent behaviour and his obsessive personal vendetta (the day of the rail fare increases that story was relegated to page 6 of his freesheet while a “May blow” story on local election polling banished it from the front page) vindicates May’s decision.

    Maybe her pettiness helped caused the other.

    Please Sir! She started it Sir!

    It certainly hasn’t got “statesmanlike” or “rising above it” written all over it has it?

    Osborne patronised and tried (unsuccessfully) to bully May for years. Only one of them is PM.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 20,612

    Second! Like Remain!

    Some might argue that Osborne’s subsequent behaviour and his obsessive personal vendetta (the day of the rail fare increases that story was relegated to page 6 of his freesheet while a “May blow” story on local election polling banished it from the front page) vindicates May’s decision.

    Maybe her pettiness helped caused the other.

    Please Sir! She started it Sir!

    It certainly hasn’t got “statesmanlike” or “rising above it” written all over it has it?

    Osborne patronised and tried (unsuccessfully) to bully May for years. Only one of them is PM.
    In politics, people get fired all the time. She could have allowed Osborne to resign and not made an enemy. Instead she chose to humiliate him. This doesn't justify Osborne's behaviour since the firing, but it does emphasise that May's judgement is far from flawless.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 15,460
    edited January 8
    rcs1000 said:

    Second! Like Remain!

    Some might argue that Osborne’s subsequent behaviour and his obsessive personal vendetta (the day of the rail fare increases that story was relegated to page 6 of his freesheet while a “May blow” story on local election polling banished it from the front page) vindicates May’s decision.

    Maybe her pettiness helped caused the other.

    Please Sir! She started it Sir!

    It certainly hasn’t got “statesmanlike” or “rising above it” written all over it has it?

    Osborne patronised and tried (unsuccessfully) to bully May for years. Only one of them is PM.
    In politics, people get fired all the time. She could have allowed Osborne to resign and not made an enemy. Instead she chose to humiliate him. This doesn't justify Osborne's behaviour since the firing, but it does emphasise that May's judgement is far from flawless.
    A sensible and mature adult, say Michael Gove, accepts their sacking, takes some time to reflect, works hard from the back benches supporting the new PM, then gets again his chance to shine in Cabinet.

    Other sensible and mature adults, David Cameron say, accepts their sacking, takes some time out from everything that is politics, writes a memoir and generally keeps himself to himself, eventually taking a job working to improve trade in a developing country.

    Only those that have acted like children their whole political career, making nothing but enemies along the way, decide to carry on being spiteful children after their sacking, because it’s all they know how to do.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 30,922
    Sandpit said:


    A sensible and mature adult, say Michael Gove, accepts their sacking, takes some time to reflect, works hard from the back benches supporting the new PM, then gets again his chance to shine in Cabinet.

    He really is doing quite well, isn't he?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 15,460
    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:


    A sensible and mature adult, say Michael Gove, accepts their sacking, takes some time to reflect, works hard from the back benches supporting the new PM, then gets again his chance to shine in Cabinet.

    He really is doing quite well, isn't he?
    Even Nick Palmer is now a fan, so he’s clearly doing something right at DEFRA.

    IMO a hugely talented politician, up there with Cameron as the best of his generation.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 7,188
    edited January 8
    In Shippers' book about Brexit, there is a line about Conservative Remainers, faced with a hostile press, saying this must be what it is like to be Labour in a general election.

    I hold no brief for Osborne, who in my view helped poison the well of British politics with his American-style partisanship, as well as being an appalling Chancellor who choked off the economic recovery he inherited, but some of the opprobrium he has faced for editing a newspaper that has dared to question the omniscience of the government shows the sense of entitlement of the right in much the same way as the Brexit quote above.

    And it would still not surprise me to learn the over-theatrical dismissal was planned with Osborne himself.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 30,922

    In Shippers' book about Brexit, there is a line about Conservative Remainers, faced with a hostile press, saying this must be what it is like to be Labour in a general election.

    I hold no brief for Osborne, who in my view helped poison the well of British politics with his American-style partisanship, as well as being an appalling Chancellor who choked off the economic recovery he inherited, but some of the opprobrium he has faced for editing a newspaper that has dared to question the omniscience of the government shows the sense of entitlement of the right in much the same way as the Brexit quote above.

    And it would still not surprise me to learn the over-theatrical dismissal was planned with Osborne himself.

    Funny, I thought he ended up with the highest growth rate in the G7.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 7,188
    RobD said:

    In Shippers' book about Brexit, there is a line about Conservative Remainers, faced with a hostile press, saying this must be what it is like to be Labour in a general election.

    I hold no brief for Osborne, who in my view helped poison the well of British politics with his American-style partisanship, as well as being an appalling Chancellor who choked off the economic recovery he inherited, but some of the opprobrium he has faced for editing a newspaper that has dared to question the omniscience of the government shows the sense of entitlement of the right in much the same way as the Brexit quote above.

    And it would still not surprise me to learn the over-theatrical dismissal was planned with Osborne himself.

    Funny, I thought he ended up with the highest growth rate in the G7.
    After he abandoned plan A, you mean?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,937

    Second! Like Remain!

    Some might argue that Osborne’s subsequent behaviour and his obsessive personal vendetta (the day of the rail fare increases that story was relegated to page 6 of his freesheet while a “May blow” story on local election polling banished it from the front page) vindicates May’s decision.

    Maybe her pettiness helped caused the other.

    Please Sir! She started it Sir!

    It certainly hasn’t got “statesmanlike” or “rising above it” written all over it has it ?
    Indeed - and it's not the job a newspaper editor to be statesmanlike.
    Mrs May should rise above her over sensitivity to feeling patronised (reportedly why she wants to sack Greening, too).
  • RobDRobD Posts: 30,922

    RobD said:

    In Shippers' book about Brexit, there is a line about Conservative Remainers, faced with a hostile press, saying this must be what it is like to be Labour in a general election.

    I hold no brief for Osborne, who in my view helped poison the well of British politics with his American-style partisanship, as well as being an appalling Chancellor who choked off the economic recovery he inherited, but some of the opprobrium he has faced for editing a newspaper that has dared to question the omniscience of the government shows the sense of entitlement of the right in much the same way as the Brexit quote above.

    And it would still not surprise me to learn the over-theatrical dismissal was planned with Osborne himself.

    Funny, I thought he ended up with the highest growth rate in the G7.
    After he abandoned plan A, you mean?
    I don't think the plan was ever abandoned. It may have been slowed somewhat, but the direction was always the same.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 7,188
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    In Shippers' book about Brexit, there is a line about Conservative Remainers, faced with a hostile press, saying this must be what it is like to be Labour in a general election.

    I hold no brief for Osborne, who in my view helped poison the well of British politics with his American-style partisanship, as well as being an appalling Chancellor who choked off the economic recovery he inherited, but some of the opprobrium he has faced for editing a newspaper that has dared to question the omniscience of the government shows the sense of entitlement of the right in much the same way as the Brexit quote above.

    And it would still not surprise me to learn the over-theatrical dismissal was planned with Osborne himself.

    Funny, I thought he ended up with the highest growth rate in the G7.
    After he abandoned plan A, you mean?
    I don't think the plan was ever abandoned. It may have been slowed somewhat, but the direction was always the same.
    The name stayed the same. Even the targets stayed although they were kicked a bit further down the road each year -- which is part of the problem with Osborne: the targets were never intended to apply to him but were solely there as weapons against Labour.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 30,922

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    In Shippers' book about Brexit, there is a line about Conservative Remainers, faced with a hostile press, saying this must be what it is like to be Labour in a general election.

    I hold no brief for Osborne, who in my view helped poison the well of British politics with his American-style partisanship, as well as being an appalling Chancellor who choked off the economic recovery he inherited, but some of the opprobrium he has faced for editing a newspaper that has dared to question the omniscience of the government shows the sense of entitlement of the right in much the same way as the Brexit quote above.

    And it would still not surprise me to learn the over-theatrical dismissal was planned with Osborne himself.

    Funny, I thought he ended up with the highest growth rate in the G7.
    After he abandoned plan A, you mean?
    I don't think the plan was ever abandoned. It may have been slowed somewhat, but the direction was always the same.
    The name stayed the same. Even the targets stayed although they were kicked a bit further down the road each year -- which is part of the problem with Osborne: the targets were never intended to apply to him but were solely there as weapons against Labour.
    And yet the deficit was down, year on year. He could have cut faster, but why risk the strongest growth in the G7?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 15,460
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    In Shippers' book about Brexit, there is a line about Conservative Remainers, faced with a hostile press, saying this must be what it is like to be Labour in a general election.

    I hold no brief for Osborne, who in my view helped poison the well of British politics with his American-style partisanship, as well as being an appalling Chancellor who choked off the economic recovery he inherited, but some of the opprobrium he has faced for editing a newspaper that has dared to question the omniscience of the government shows the sense of entitlement of the right in much the same way as the Brexit quote above.

    And it would still not surprise me to learn the over-theatrical dismissal was planned with Osborne himself.

    Funny, I thought he ended up with the highest growth rate in the G7.
    After he abandoned plan A, you mean?
    I don't think the plan was ever abandoned. It may have been slowed somewhat, but the direction was always the same.
    As an economic Chancellor he wasn’t too bad, although it could be argued that he could have actually reduced public spending rather than simply slowed the rate of increase. But that was a difficult line to tread without triggering a technical recession and he could have done a lot worse.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 15,909

    I hold no brief for Osborne, who in my view helped poison the well of British politics with his American-style partisanship...

    Like when he spiked the election that was supposed to ‘grind the Tory bastards into dust’ with his inheritance tax announcement?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 7,188
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    In Shippers' book about Brexit, there is a line about Conservative Remainers, faced with a hostile press, saying this must be what it is like to be Labour in a general election.

    I hold no brief for Osborne, who in my view helped poison the well of British politics with his American-style partisanship, as well as being an appalling Chancellor who choked off the economic recovery he inherited, but some of the opprobrium he has faced for editing a newspaper that has dared to question the omniscience of the government shows the sense of entitlement of the right in much the same way as the Brexit quote above.

    And it would still not surprise me to learn the over-theatrical dismissal was planned with Osborne himself.

    Funny, I thought he ended up with the highest growth rate in the G7.
    After he abandoned plan A, you mean?
    I don't think the plan was ever abandoned. It may have been slowed somewhat, but the direction was always the same.
    The name stayed the same. Even the targets stayed although they were kicked a bit further down the road each year -- which is part of the problem with Osborne: the targets were never intended to apply to him but were solely there as weapons against Labour.
    And yet the deficit was down, year on year. He could have cut faster, but why risk the strongest growth in the G7?
    And debt rose to record levels, and the strongest growth (only for a year or so) has more to do with German-imposed austerity in the Eurozone.

    Btw, you did notice my original post was in defence of Osborne (at least as a newspaper editor)?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 30,922

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    In Shippers' book about Brexit, there is a line about Conservative Remainers, faced with a hostile press, saying this must be what it is like to be Labour in a general election.

    I hold no brief for Osborne, who in my view helped poison the well of British politics with his American-style partisanship, as well as being an appalling Chancellor who choked off the economic recovery he inherited, but some of the opprobrium he has faced for editing a newspaper that has dared to question the omniscience of the government shows the sense of entitlement of the right in much the same way as the Brexit quote above.

    And it would still not surprise me to learn the over-theatrical dismissal was planned with Osborne himself.

    Funny, I thought he ended up with the highest growth rate in the G7.
    After he abandoned plan A, you mean?
    I don't think the plan was ever abandoned. It may have been slowed somewhat, but the direction was always the same.
    The name stayed the same. Even the targets stayed although they were kicked a bit further down the road each year -- which is part of the problem with Osborne: the targets were never intended to apply to him but were solely there as weapons against Labour.
    And yet the deficit was down, year on year. He could have cut faster, but why risk the strongest growth in the G7?
    And debt rose to record levels, and the strongest growth (only for a year or so) has more to do with German-imposed austerity in the Eurozone.

    Btw, you did notice my original post was in defence of Osborne (at least as a newspaper editor)?
    Of course the debt rose. What did you expect, for the deficit to be cut to zero on day 1?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 7,188
    Talking of Osborne's Standard, his map shows Australian flu has London in a pincer movement but PB-ers Sunil and Meekes are manning the barricades: Londoners in the City of London and Ilford are among those parts to have escaped the virus

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/red-zone-map-reveals-rapid-spread-of-illness-across-london-and-uk-amid-rising-cases-of-australian-a3734056.html?CMP=ILC-refresh
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,589
    rcs1000 said:

    Second! Like Remain!

    Some might argue that Osborne’s subsequent behaviour and his obsessive personal vendetta (the day of the rail fare increases that story was relegated to page 6 of his freesheet while a “May blow” story on local election polling banished it from the front page) vindicates May’s decision.

    Maybe her pettiness helped caused the other.

    Please Sir! She started it Sir!

    It certainly hasn’t got “statesmanlike” or “rising above it” written all over it has it?

    Osborne patronised and tried (unsuccessfully) to bully May for years. Only one of them is PM.
    In politics, people get fired all the time. She could have allowed Osborne to resign and not made an enemy. Instead she chose to humiliate him. This doesn't justify Osborne's behaviour since the firing, but it does emphasise that May's judgement is far from flawless.
    It brought out the worst in both of them.

    Osborne would have been better advised to rise above it.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 26,197

    rcs1000 said:

    Second! Like Remain!

    Some might argue that Osborne’s subsequent behaviour and his obsessive personal vendetta (the day of the rail fare increases that story was relegated to page 6 of his freesheet while a “May blow” story on local election polling banished it from the front page) vindicates May’s decision.

    Maybe her pettiness helped caused the other.

    Please Sir! She started it Sir!

    It certainly hasn’t got “statesmanlike” or “rising above it” written all over it has it?

    Osborne patronised and tried (unsuccessfully) to bully May for years. Only one of them is PM.
    In politics, people get fired all the time. She could have allowed Osborne to resign and not made an enemy. Instead she chose to humiliate him. This doesn't justify Osborne's behaviour since the firing, but it does emphasise that May's judgement is far from flawless.
    It brought out the worst in both of them.

    Osborne would have been better advised to rise above it.
    Man treats woman badly for 5 years - no biggie
    Woman treats man badly for one afternoon - bring on the personal vendetta!

  • JackWJackW Posts: 12,892
    Good morning PB reshuffle addicts ....

    Early news as the PM attempts to emulate the Golden Globes :

    In solidarity Mrs May continues her diversity, inclusivity and crack down on unwanted rumpy pumpy as all promoted ministers will walk to the door of 10 Downing Street in a black dress.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 7,188
    When is this reshuffle anyway? Does the PM realise we have money riding on this? Will it be spread over two days like they used to be, Cabinet first then junior ministers the next day?

    One trap the PM might fall into is that describing sideways moves of junior ministers as promotion risks establishing a hierarchy of posts that will prove toxic later.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 15,460
    So, do the BBC lead with news of a cabinet reshuffle, or news of a reshuffle of their own as a senior editor resigns because of a supposed gender pay gap?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 26,197
    Sandpit said:

    So, do the BBC lead with news of a cabinet reshuffle, or news of a reshuffle of their own as a senior editor resigns because of a supposed gender pay gap?

    Debra Messing (Grace of Will & Grace) was interviewed by E! on the Golden Globes red carpet where she regretted that E! had recently low a female interviewer when she found out she was on half the salary of her male co-host....
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 20,612
    RobD said:

    In Shippers' book about Brexit, there is a line about Conservative Remainers, faced with a hostile press, saying this must be what it is like to be Labour in a general election.

    I hold no brief for Osborne, who in my view helped poison the well of British politics with his American-style partisanship, as well as being an appalling Chancellor who choked off the economic recovery he inherited, but some of the opprobrium he has faced for editing a newspaper that has dared to question the omniscience of the government shows the sense of entitlement of the right in much the same way as the Brexit quote above.

    And it would still not surprise me to learn the over-theatrical dismissal was planned with Osborne himself.

    Funny, I thought he ended up with the highest growth rate in the G7.
    Osborne was an appalling Chancellor, who left the economy in a far more precarious and unbalanced state than when he got it.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 18,051
    Theresa May seems to inspire disloyalty across her party's political spectrum. The way she handled George Osborne's departure and the way she has started this reshuffle are good pointers why.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,879
    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    In Shippers' book about Brexit, there is a line about Conservative Remainers, faced with a hostile press, saying this must be what it is like to be Labour in a general election.

    I hold no brief for Osborne, who in my view helped poison the well of British politics with his American-style partisanship, as well as being an appalling Chancellor who choked off the economic recovery he inherited, but some of the opprobrium he has faced for editing a newspaper that has dared to question the omniscience of the government shows the sense of entitlement of the right in much the same way as the Brexit quote above.

    And it would still not surprise me to learn the over-theatrical dismissal was planned with Osborne himself.

    Funny, I thought he ended up with the highest growth rate in the G7.
    Osborne was an appalling Chancellor, who left the economy in a far more precarious and unbalanced state than when he got it.
    Surprised to see you say that Robert. In my view he did very well in an almost impossible situation, managing to reduce the deficit by £100bn a year without a recession, presiding over record employment when many forecast early 90's style unemployment, managed unprecedented (if only for its length) control on the growth of public spending improving the balance between the State and private sectors and making some tentative steps towards refocussing spending on capital rather than consumption. I think it is pretty daft to suggest the economy was in a more precarious position in 2016 than it was in 2010.

    Of course there is still a frightening amount to do. No real progress was made in reducing the trade deficit, productivity growth (the price of high employment) was shockingly poor, the debt/GDP ratio is still at dangerous levels and investment has not been high enough compared to consumption. The point made downthread by @DecrepitJohnL that his targets were weapons against Labour rather than something he expected to be held to is also well made. But I think given the devastation he inherited he did well.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,879

    Theresa May seems to inspire disloyalty across her party's political spectrum. The way she handled George Osborne's departure and the way she has started this reshuffle are good pointers why.

    I am not a great fan of the wisdom of crowds but it is hard to avoid the conclusion that May with a large majority would have been totally insufferable.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,589
    edited January 8
    DavidL said:

    Theresa May seems to inspire disloyalty across her party's political spectrum. The way she handled George Osborne's departure and the way she has started this reshuffle are good pointers why.

    I am not a great fan of the wisdom of crowds but it is hard to avoid the conclusion that May with a large majority would have been totally insufferable.
    You actually had Conservatives on here questioning it by the end of the GE2017 campaign because they were very concerned in giving Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill licence to do whatever they wanted.

    Reading about Fiona Hill, in particular, in Tim Shipman's book "Fall Out" is shocking.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,589

    rcs1000 said:

    Second! Like Remain!

    Some might argue that Osborne’s subsequent behaviour and his obsessive personal vendetta (the day of the rail fare increases that story was relegated to page 6 of his freesheet while a “May blow” story on local election polling banished it from the front page) vindicates May’s decision.

    Maybe her pettiness helped caused the other.

    Please Sir! She started it Sir!

    It certainly hasn’t got “statesmanlike” or “rising above it” written all over it has it?

    Osborne patronised and tried (unsuccessfully) to bully May for years. Only one of them is PM.
    In politics, people get fired all the time. She could have allowed Osborne to resign and not made an enemy. Instead she chose to humiliate him. This doesn't justify Osborne's behaviour since the firing, but it does emphasise that May's judgement is far from flawless.
    It brought out the worst in both of them.

    Osborne would have been better advised to rise above it.
    Man treats woman badly for 5 years - no biggie
    Woman treats man badly for one afternoon - bring on the personal vendetta!

    It says a lot about his character.

    Osborne was certainly not shy of issuing threats, buying patronage and shutting people out in the cold who defied him when he was Chancellor.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,879

    rcs1000 said:

    Second! Like Remain!

    Some might argue that Osborne’s subsequent behaviour and his obsessive personal vendetta (the day of the rail fare increases that story was relegated to page 6 of his freesheet while a “May blow” story on local election polling banished it from the front page) vindicates May’s decision.

    Maybe her pettiness helped caused the other.

    Please Sir! She started it Sir!

    It certainly hasn’t got “statesmanlike” or “rising above it” written all over it has it?

    Osborne patronised and tried (unsuccessfully) to bully May for years. Only one of them is PM.
    In politics, people get fired all the time. She could have allowed Osborne to resign and not made an enemy. Instead she chose to humiliate him. This doesn't justify Osborne's behaviour since the firing, but it does emphasise that May's judgement is far from flawless.
    It brought out the worst in both of them.

    Osborne would have been better advised to rise above it.
    Man treats woman badly for 5 years - no biggie
    Woman treats man badly for one afternoon - bring on the personal vendetta!

    It says a lot about his character.

    Osborne was certainly not shy of issuing threats, buying patronage and shutting people out in the cold who defied him when he was Chancellor.
    That was his job. He was the iron fist behind Cameron's velvet glove. The government was remarkably disciplined and focussed as a result, look at what we have now when there is no enforcer in the government for a comparison. I wouldn't dispute that he did seem to relish the role but that was a part of what made him so effective.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 26,197
    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Second! Like Remain!

    Some might argue that Osborne’s subsequent behaviour and his obsessive personal vendetta (the day of the rail fare increases that story was relegated to page 6 of his freesheet while a “May blow” story on local election polling banished it from the front page) vindicates May’s decision.

    Maybe her pettiness helped caused the other.

    Please Sir! She started it Sir!

    It certainly hasn’t got “statesmanlike” or “rising above it” written all over it has it?

    Osborne patronised and tried (unsuccessfully) to bully May for years. Only one of them is PM.
    In politics, people get fired all the time. She could have allowed Osborne to resign and not made an enemy. Instead she chose to humiliate him. This doesn't justify Osborne's behaviour since the firing, but it does emphasise that May's judgement is far from flawless.
    It brought out the worst in both of them.

    Osborne would have been better advised to rise above it.
    Man treats woman badly for 5 years - no biggie
    Woman treats man badly for one afternoon - bring on the personal vendetta!

    It says a lot about his character.

    Osborne was certainly not shy of issuing threats, buying patronage and shutting people out in the cold who defied him when he was Chancellor.
    That was his job. He was the iron fist behind Cameron's velvet glove. The government was remarkably disciplined and focussed as a result, look at what we have now when there is no enforcer in the government for a comparison. I wouldn't dispute that he did seem to relish the role but that was a part of what made him so effective.
    The coalition was effective because of the quad - of which Osborne was one quarter. Surely a man of such superior political insights could have seen where May was headed and stayed in the HoC rather than flouncing off in a huff?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 15,460
    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Second! Like Remain!

    Some might argue that Osborne’s subsequent behaviour and his obsessive personal vendetta (the day of the rail fare increases that story was relegated to page 6 of his freesheet while a “May blow” story on local election polling banished it from the front page) vindicates May’s decision.

    Maybe her pettiness helped caused the other.

    Please Sir! She started it Sir!

    It certainly hasn’t got “statesmanlike” or “rising above it” written all over it has it?

    Osborne patronised and tried (unsuccessfully) to bully May for years. Only one of them is PM.
    In politics, people get fired all the time. She could have allowed Osborne to resign and not made an enemy. Instead she chose to humiliate him. This doesn't justify Osborne's behaviour since the firing, but it does emphasise that May's judgement is far from flawless.
    It brought out the worst in both of them.

    Osborne would have been better advised to rise above it.
    Man treats woman badly for 5 years - no biggie
    Woman treats man badly for one afternoon - bring on the personal vendetta!

    It says a lot about his character.

    Osborne was certainly not shy of issuing threats, buying patronage and shutting people out in the cold who defied him when he was Chancellor.
    That was his job. He was the iron fist behind Cameron's velvet glove. The government was remarkably disciplined and focussed as a result, look at what we have now when there is no enforcer in the government for a comparison. I wouldn't dispute that he did seem to relish the role but that was a part of what made him so effective.
    Of course, but he was totally unable to deal with the point at which the situation reversed, when he became the one of the receiving end of the same type of behaviour he had practiced for a decade.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 26,197
    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Second! Like Remain!

    Some might argue that Osborne’s subsequent behaviour and his obsessive personal vendetta (the day of the rail fare increases that story was relegated to page 6 of his freesheet while a “May blow” story on local election polling banished it from the front page) vindicates May’s decision.

    Maybe her pettiness helped caused the other.

    Please Sir! She started it Sir!

    It certainly hasn’t got “statesmanlike” or “rising above it” written all over it has it?

    Osborne patronised and tried (unsuccessfully) to bully May for years. Only one of them is PM.
    In politics, people get fired all the time. She could have allowed Osborne to resign and not made an enemy. Instead she chose to humiliate him. This doesn't justify Osborne's behaviour since the firing, but it does emphasise that May's judgement is far from flawless.
    It brought out the worst in both of them.

    Osborne would have been better advised to rise above it.
    Man treats woman badly for 5 years - no biggie
    Woman treats man badly for one afternoon - bring on the personal vendetta!

    It says a lot about his character.

    Osborne was certainly not shy of issuing threats, buying patronage and shutting people out in the cold who defied him when he was Chancellor.
    That was his job. He was the iron fist behind Cameron's velvet glove. The government was remarkably disciplined and focussed as a result, look at what we have now when there is no enforcer in the government for a comparison. I wouldn't dispute that he did seem to relish the role but that was a part of what made him so effective.
    Of course, but he was totally unable to deal with the point at which the situation reversed, when he became the one of the receiving end of the same type of behaviour he had practiced for a decade.
    Can dish it out but can’t take it. Classic bully.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 18,051
    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Second! Like Remain!

    Some might argue that Osborne’s subsequent behaviour and his obsessive personal vendetta (the day of the rail fare increases that story was relegated to page 6 of his freesheet while a “May blow” story on local election polling banished it from the front page) vindicates May’s decision.

    Maybe her pettiness helped caused the other.

    Please Sir! She started it Sir!

    It certainly hasn’t got “statesmanlike” or “rising above it” written all over it has it?

    Osborne patronised and tried (unsuccessfully) to bully May for years. Only one of them is PM.
    In politics, people get fired all the time. She could have allowed Osborne to resign and not made an enemy. Instead she chose to humiliate him. This doesn't justify Osborne's behaviour since the firing, but it does emphasise that May's judgement is far from flawless.
    It brought out the worst in both of them.

    Osborne would have been better advised to rise above it.
    Man treats woman badly for 5 years - no biggie
    Woman treats man badly for one afternoon - bring on the personal vendetta!

    It says a lot about his character.

    Osborne was certainly not shy of issuing threats, buying patronage and shutting people out in the cold who defied him when he was Chancellor.
    That was his job. He was the iron fist behind Cameron's velvet glove. The government was remarkably disciplined and focussed as a result, look at what we have now when there is no enforcer in the government for a comparison. I wouldn't dispute that he did seem to relish the role but that was a part of what made him so effective.
    Of course, but he was totally unable to deal with the point at which the situation reversed, when he became the one of the receiving end of the same type of behaviour he had practiced for a decade.
    The Greek chorus seem to overlook that, having taken it, he simply went on to extract his own revenge. Given how much he is infuriating the deadhead May loyalists, it seems that he is doing that very effectively.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 9,824
    edited January 8
    Clarke with an e? Tsk. But if the rumour is true, it makes Hunt a clear favourite to succeed May.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,879
    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Second! Like Remain!

    Some might argue that Osborne’s subsequent behaviour and his obsessive personal vendetta (the day of the rail fare increases that story was relegated to page 6 of his freesheet while a “May blow” story on local election polling banished it from the front page) vindicates May’s decision.

    Maybe her pettiness helped caused the other.

    Please Sir! She started it Sir!

    It certainly hasn’t got “statesmanlike” or “rising above it” written all over it has it?

    Osborne patronised and tried (unsuccessfully) to bully May for years. Only one of them is PM.
    In politics, people get fired all the time. She could have allowed Osborne to resign and not made an enemy. Instead she chose to humiliate him. This doesn't justify Osborne's behaviour since the firing, but it does emphasise that May's judgement is far from flawless.
    It brought out the worst in both of them.

    Osborne would have been better advised to rise above it.
    Man treats woman badly for 5 years - no biggie
    Woman treats man badly for one afternoon - bring on the personal vendetta!

    It says a lot about his character.

    Osborne was certainly not shy of issuing threats, buying patronage and shutting people out in the cold who defied him when he was Chancellor.
    That was his job. He was the iron fist behind Cameron's velvet glove. The government was remarkably disciplined and focussed as a result, look at what we have now when there is no enforcer in the government for a comparison. I wouldn't dispute that he did seem to relish the role but that was a part of what made him so effective.
    Of course, but he was totally unable to deal with the point at which the situation reversed, when he became the one of the receiving end of the same type of behaviour he had practiced for a decade.
    He concluded that he had better things to do with his time. It's a pity. I would suggest that there is no one in this government with his skills in political management, hence the widely held perception of drift.
  • There's some shocking revisionist history taking place on here which would make David Irving blush.

    Mrs May and her staff were/are arrogant bullies who liked to humiliate anyone who crosses them.

    George Osborne is typical of the behaviour meted out by them not atypical.

    I didn't give her the nickname the poundshop Gordon Brown without reason.

    They enjoyed sacking the SPADS/party staff on the evening of July 13th of 2016 with such glee. Some struggled to get home as they weren't allowed to retrieve their wallets/phones.


    The staff she sacked in July 2016 were asked to join the campaign, they said no, which contributed to the result.

    She and her staff regularly humiliated and denigrated David Cameron and his general election winning campaign.

    She ignored Cameron for months.

    Both Cameron and Sir John Major offered to help the Tories during the election campaign and were told 'No ta, Mrs May wants to own this result on her own, plus we don't need your help'

    Her election campaign strategy was based on doing what Dave and George did. How'd that turn out?

    Then she begged Dave to help her sell the DUP deal, an irony not lost on Dave.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 26,197

    There's some shocking revisionist history taking place on here which would make David Irving blush.

    Mrs May and her staff were/are arrogant bullies who liked to humiliate anyone who crosses them.

    George Osborne is typical of the behaviour meted out by them not atypical.

    I didn't give her the nickname the poundshop Gordon Brown without reason.

    They enjoyed sacking the SPADS/party staff on the evening of July 13th of 2016 with such glee. Some struggled to get home as they weren't allowed to retrieve their wallets/phones.


    The staff she sacked in July 2016 were asked to join the campaign, they said no, which contributed to the result.

    She and her staff regularly humiliated and denigrated David Cameron and his general election winning campaign.

    She ignored Cameron for months.

    Both Cameron and Sir John Major offered to help the Tories during the election campaign and were told 'No ta, Mrs May wants to own this result on her own, plus we don't need your help'

    Her election campaign strategy was based on doing what Dave and George did. How'd that turn out?

    Then she begged Dave to help her sell the DUP deal, an irony not lost on Dave.

    MRDA
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 9,824
    Amazingly, Hunt is 13 on Betfair in a very thin market - almost bound to shorten, I reckon.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 7,188
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Second! Like Remain!

    Some might argue that Osborne’s subsequent behaviour and his obsessive personal vendetta (the day of the rail fare increases that story was relegated to page 6 of his freesheet while a “May blow” story on local election polling banished it from the front page) vindicates May’s decision.

    Maybe her pettiness helped caused the other.

    Please Sir! She started it Sir!

    It certainly hasn’t got “statesmanlike” or “rising above it” written all over it has it?

    Osborne patronised and tried (unsuccessfully) to bully May for years. Only one of them is PM.
    In politics, people get fired all the time. She could have allowed Osborne to resign and not made an enemy. Instead she chose to humiliate him. This doesn't justify Osborne's behaviour since the firing, but it does emphasise that May's judgement is far from flawless.
    It brought out the worst in both of them.

    Osborne would have been better advised to rise above it.
    Man treats woman badly for 5 years - no biggie
    Woman treats man badly for one afternoon - bring on the personal vendetta!

    It says a lot about his character.

    Osborne was certainly not shy of issuing threats, buying patronage and shutting people out in the cold who defied him when he was Chancellor.
    That was his job. He was the iron fist behind Cameron's velvet glove. The government was remarkably disciplined and focussed as a result, look at what we have now when there is no enforcer in the government for a comparison. I wouldn't dispute that he did seem to relish the role but that was a part of what made him so effective.
    Of course, but he was totally unable to deal with the point at which the situation reversed, when he became the one of the receiving end of the same type of behaviour he had practiced for a decade.
    He concluded that he had better things to do with his time. It's a pity. I would suggest that there is no one in this government with his skills in political management, hence the widely held perception of drift.
    A question for the memoirs: was Osborne leaving politics partly because it had always been planned that he would retire when Cameron did -- though of course this was intended to be a decade or so in the future? It was widely reported that Osborne never saw himself as PM (although perhaps that was partly spin to ward off stories about splits).
  • There's some shocking revisionist history taking place on here which would make David Irving blush.

    Mrs May and her staff were/are arrogant bullies who liked to humiliate anyone who crosses them.

    George Osborne is typical of the behaviour meted out by them not atypical.

    I didn't give her the nickname the poundshop Gordon Brown without reason.

    They enjoyed sacking the SPADS/party staff on the evening of July 13th of 2016 with such glee. Some struggled to get home as they weren't allowed to retrieve their wallets/phones.


    The staff she sacked in July 2016 were asked to join the campaign, they said no, which contributed to the result.

    She and her staff regularly humiliated and denigrated David Cameron and his general election winning campaign.

    She ignored Cameron for months.

    Both Cameron and Sir John Major offered to help the Tories during the election campaign and were told 'No ta, Mrs May wants to own this result on her own, plus we don't need your help'

    Her election campaign strategy was based on doing what Dave and George did. How'd that turn out?

    Then she begged Dave to help her sell the DUP deal, an irony not lost on Dave.

    MRDA
    I was saying this the evening of July 13th when she started firing the help.

    Ask yourself, why has she exasperated party loyalists like JohnO with her behaviour?
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 61

    In Shippers' book about Brexit, there is a line about Conservative Remainers, faced with a hostile press, saying this must be what it is like to be Labour in a general election.

    When you are used to a fairly positive press it must be a huge difference, maybe something they didn't prepare for well enough.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,937

    There's some shocking revisionist history taking place on here which would make David Irving blush.

    Mrs May and her staff were/are arrogant bullies who liked to humiliate anyone who crosses them.

    George Osborne is typical of the behaviour meted out by them not atypical.

    I didn't give her the nickname the poundshop Gordon Brown without reason.

    They enjoyed sacking the SPADS/party staff on the evening of July 13th of 2016 with such glee. Some struggled to get home as they weren't allowed to retrieve their wallets/phones.


    The staff she sacked in July 2016 were asked to join the campaign, they said no, which contributed to the result.

    She and her staff regularly humiliated and denigrated David Cameron and his general election winning campaign.

    She ignored Cameron for months.

    Both Cameron and Sir John Major offered to help the Tories during the election campaign and were told 'No ta, Mrs May wants to own this result on her own, plus we don't need your help'

    Her election campaign strategy was based on doing what Dave and George did. How'd that turn out?

    Then she begged Dave to help her sell the DUP deal, an irony not lost on Dave.

    MRDA
    I was saying this the evening of July 13th when she started firing the help.

    Ask yourself, why has she exasperated party loyalists like JohnO with her behaviour?
    That would require a willingness to question the May project (whatever that might be).
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 20,612
    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    Funny, I thought he ended up with the highest growth rate in the G7.

    Osborne was an appalling Chancellor, who left the economy in a far more precarious and unbalanced state than when he got it.
    Surprised to see you say that Robert. In my view he did very well in an almost impossible situation, managing to reduce the deficit by £100bn a year without a recession, presiding over record employment when many forecast early 90's style unemployment, managed unprecedented (if only for its length) control on the growth of public spending improving the balance between the State and private sectors and making some tentative steps towards refocussing spending on capital rather than consumption. I think it is pretty daft to suggest the economy was in a more precarious position in 2016 than it was in 2010.

    Of course there is still a frightening amount to do. No real progress was made in reducing the trade deficit, productivity growth (the price of high employment) was shockingly poor, the debt/GDP ratio is still at dangerous levels and investment has not been high enough compared to consumption. The point made downthread by @DecrepitJohnL that his targets were weapons against Labour rather than something he expected to be held to is also well made. But I think given the devastation he inherited he did well.
    Perhaps I exaggerate for effect.

    But we are the only developed country where the structural imbalances from before the GFC have been almost entirely uncorrected.

    That's no accident: George Osborne recognised the dangers of a negative feedback loop, where falling demand caused job losses, causing the savings rate to rise, and causing more job losses. The policies the government enacted were entirely designed to hold up demand.

    But they ignored the fundamental problem the UK had, that consumer spending was already too high as a percentage of GDP, and the savings rate too low. By postponing the inevitable increase in the UK savings rate, the eventual readjustment will be even more painful. Let's put this in context for a second: the cumulative current account deficit for the UK since the GFC is around 30% of GDP.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 15,460

    There's some shocking revisionist history taking place on here which would make David Irving blush.

    Mrs May and her staff were/are arrogant bullies who liked to humiliate anyone who crosses them.

    George Osborne is typical of the behaviour meted out by them not atypical.

    I didn't give her the nickname the poundshop Gordon Brown without reason.

    They enjoyed sacking the SPADS/party staff on the evening of July 13th of 2016 with such glee. Some struggled to get home as they weren't allowed to retrieve their wallets/phones.


    The staff she sacked in July 2016 were asked to join the campaign, they said no, which contributed to the result.

    She and her staff regularly humiliated and denigrated David Cameron and his general election winning campaign.

    She ignored Cameron for months.

    Both Cameron and Sir John Major offered to help the Tories during the election campaign and were told 'No ta, Mrs May wants to own this result on her own, plus we don't need your help'

    Her election campaign strategy was based on doing what Dave and George did. How'd that turn out?

    Then she begged Dave to help her sell the DUP deal, an irony not lost on Dave.

    MRDA
    I was saying this the evening of July 13th when she started firing the help.

    Ask yourself, why has she exasperated party loyalists like JohnO with her behaviour?
    But none of that excuses the former Chancellor from working as hard as possible to ensure Corbyn won last year’s election, does it?
  • Sandpit said:

    There's some shocking revisionist history taking place on here which would make David Irving blush.

    Mrs May and her staff were/are arrogant bullies who liked to humiliate anyone who crosses them.

    George Osborne is typical of the behaviour meted out by them not atypical.

    I didn't give her the nickname the poundshop Gordon Brown without reason.

    They enjoyed sacking the SPADS/party staff on the evening of July 13th of 2016 with such glee. Some struggled to get home as they weren't allowed to retrieve their wallets/phones.


    The staff she sacked in July 2016 were asked to join the campaign, they said no, which contributed to the result.

    She and her staff regularly humiliated and denigrated David Cameron and his general election winning campaign.

    She ignored Cameron for months.

    Both Cameron and Sir John Major offered to help the Tories during the election campaign and were told 'No ta, Mrs May wants to own this result on her own, plus we don't need your help'

    Her election campaign strategy was based on doing what Dave and George did. How'd that turn out?

    Then she begged Dave to help her sell the DUP deal, an irony not lost on Dave.

    MRDA
    I was saying this the evening of July 13th when she started firing the help.

    Ask yourself, why has she exasperated party loyalists like JohnO with her behaviour?
    But none of that excuses the former Chancellor from working as hard as possible to ensure Corbyn won last year’s election, does it?
    Seriously? What did he do?

    You know he was helping several Tory MPs during the campaign.

    He was devastated by the result, his and Dave's decade long hard work were undone in a few weeks by Mrs May.

    He absolutely loathes the policies of Corbyn and wanted Corbyn to getting an absolute gubbing.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 20,612
    I'm assuming everyone is already all over this brilliant story: https://www.politico.com/story/2018/01/05/trump-gorilla-channel-parody-326374
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 1,486
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    Funny, I thought he ended up with the highest growth rate in the G7.

    Osborne was an appalling Chancellor, who left the economy in a far more precarious and unbalanced state than when he got it.
    Surprised to see you say that Robert. In my view he did very well in an almost impossible situation, managing to reduce the deficit by £100bn a year without a recession, presiding over record employment when many forecast early 90's style unemployment, managed unprecedented (if only for its length) control on the growth of public spending improving the balance between the State and private sectors and making some tentative steps towards refocussing spending on capital rather than consumption. I think it is pretty daft to suggest the economy was in a more precarious position in 2016 than it was in 2010.

    Of course there is still a frightening amount to do. No real progress was made in reducing the trade deficit, productivity growth (the price of high employment) was shockingly poor, the debt/GDP ratio is still at dangerous levels and investment has not been high enough compared to consumption. The point made downthread by @DecrepitJohnL that his targets were weapons against Labour rather than something he expected to be held to is also well made. But I think given the devastation he inherited he did well.
    Perhaps I exaggerate for effect.

    But we are the only developed country where the structural imbalances from before the GFC have been almost entirely uncorrected.

    That's no accident: George Osborne recognised the dangers of a negative feedback loop, where falling demand caused job losses, causing the savings rate to rise, and causing more job losses. The policies the government enacted were entirely designed to hold up demand.

    But they ignored the fundamental problem the UK had, that consumer spending was already too high as a percentage of GDP, and the savings rate too low. By postponing the inevitable increase in the UK savings rate, the eventual readjustment will be even more painful. Let's put this in context for a second: the cumulative current account deficit for the UK since the GFC is around 30% of GDP.
    A good summary. Osborne largely fixed the public finances but did nothing to correct the UK’s business model of funding consumer good imports by selling off assets at home and abroad and accumulating more foreign debt. Brexit is doing that, as the Guardian identified yesterday.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jan/02/good-factories-bad-shoppers-brexit-pattern-emerging
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 9,824
    DavidL said:



    He concluded that he had better things to do with his time. It's a pity. I would suggest that there is no one in this government with his skills in political management, hence the widely held perception of drift.

    He was an excellent political strategist, an arguably indifferent Chancellor (I agree there are two views of that) and a poor politician in terms of presenting himself - the impression of smugness was one he did little to dispel. Perhaps he should have had Nick Timothy's role as the power behind the scenes.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 9,824
    The AfD surge reported in several polls last week seems to have sunk back:

    http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/

    Interestingly, 93% (!) of Germans rate Merkel as a good Chancellor, and 53% would like her to continue, though 69% are critical over the refugee policy. There's an overview of the various viewpoints here:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/06/angela-merkel-german-coalition-social-democrats-talks
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 15,460
    edited January 8

    Sandpit said:

    There's some shocking revisionist history taking place on here which would make David Irving blush.

    Mrs May and her staff were/are arrogant bullies who liked to humiliate anyone who crosses them.

    George Osborne is typical of the behaviour meted out by them not atypical.

    I didn't give her the nickname the poundshop Gordon Brown without reason.

    They enjoyed sacking the SPADS/party staff on the evening of July 13th of 2016 with such glee. Some struggled to get home as they weren't allowed to retrieve their wallets/phones.


    The staff she sacked in July 2016 were asked to join the campaign, they said no, which contributed to the result.

    She and her staff regularly humiliated and denigrated David Cameron and his general election winning campaign.

    She ignored Cameron for months.

    Both Cameron and Sir John Major offered to help the Tories during the election campaign and were told 'No ta, Mrs May wants to own this result on her own, plus we don't need your help'

    Her election campaign strategy was based on doing what Dave and George did. How'd that turn out?

    Then she begged Dave to help her sell the DUP deal, an irony not lost on Dave.

    MRDA
    I was saying this the evening of July 13th when she started firing the help.

    Ask yourself, why has she exasperated party loyalists like JohnO with her behaviour?
    But none of that excuses the former Chancellor from working as hard as possible to ensure Corbyn won last year’s election, does it?
    Seriously? What did he do?

    You know he was helping several Tory MPs during the campaign.

    He was devastated by the result, his and Dave's decade long hard work were undone in a few weeks by Mrs May.

    He absolutely loathes the policies of Corbyn and wanted Corbyn to getting an absolute gubbing.
    Seriously? Short of saying “Vote Labour” on the front page, what didn’t he do? Headline after headline, editorial after editorial, day after day, week after week, month after month, before, during and after the election campaign.

    Tell me if you think this guy is devastated, or over the moon about the result?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 20,612
    RoyalBlue said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    Surprised to see you say that Robert. In my view he did very well in an almost impossible situation, managing to reduce the deficit by £100bn a year without a recession, presiding over record employment when many forecast early 90's style unemployment, managed unprecedented (if only for its length) control on the growth of public spending improving the balance between the State and private sectors and making some tentative steps towards refocussing spending on capital rather than consumption. I think it is pretty daft to suggest the economy was in a more precarious position in 2016 than it was in 2010.

    Of course there is still a frightening amount to do. No real progress was made in reducing the trade deficit, productivity growth (the price of high employment) was shockingly poor, the debt/GDP ratio is still at dangerous levels and investment has not been high enough compared to consumption. The point made downthread by @DecrepitJohnL that his targets were weapons against Labour rather than something he expected to be held to is also well made. But I think given the devastation he inherited he did well.

    Perhaps I exaggerate for effect.

    But we are the only developed country where the structural imbalances from before the GFC have been almost entirely uncorrected.

    That's no accident: George Osborne recognised the dangers of a negative feedback loop, where falling demand caused job losses, causing the savings rate to rise, and causing more job losses. The policies the government enacted were entirely designed to hold up demand.

    But they ignored the fundamental problem the UK had, that consumer spending was already too high as a percentage of GDP, and the savings rate too low. By postponing the inevitable increase in the UK savings rate, the eventual readjustment will be even more painful. Let's put this in context for a second: the cumulative current account deficit for the UK since the GFC is around 30% of GDP.
    A good summary. Osborne largely fixed the public finances but did nothing to correct the UK’s business model of funding consumer good imports by selling off assets at home and abroad and accumulating more foreign debt. Brexit is doing that, as the Guardian identified yesterday.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jan/02/good-factories-bad-shoppers-brexit-pattern-emerging
    The article alludes to one of things we need to be incredibly grateful for: if the Eurozone wasn't continuing its recovery (with savings rates finally beginning to drop, and consumer spending coming off the bottom), then the macro backdrop for our rebalancing would not be so favourable.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 15,389
    Sandpit said:

    There's some shocking revisionist history taking place on here which would make David Irving blush.

    Mrs May and her staff were/are arrogant bullies who liked to humiliate anyone who crosses them.

    George Osborne is typical of the behaviour meted out by them not atypical.

    I didn't give her the nickname the poundshop Gordon Brown without reason.

    They enjoyed sacking the SPADS/party staff on the evening of July 13th of 2016 with such glee. Some struggled to get home as they weren't allowed to retrieve their wallets/phones.


    The staff she sacked in July 2016 were asked to join the campaign, they said no, which contributed to the result.

    She and her staff regularly humiliated and denigrated David Cameron and his general election winning campaign.

    She ignored Cameron for months.

    Both Cameron and Sir John Major offered to help the Tories during the election campaign and were told 'No ta, Mrs May wants to own this result on her own, plus we don't need your help'

    Her election campaign strategy was based on doing what Dave and George did. How'd that turn out?

    Then she begged Dave to help her sell the DUP deal, an irony not lost on Dave.

    MRDA
    I was saying this the evening of July 13th when she started firing the help.

    Ask yourself, why has she exasperated party loyalists like JohnO with her behaviour?
    But none of that excuses the former Chancellor from working as hard as possible to ensure Corbyn won last year’s election, does it?
    Of more concern to the current membership is his working as hard as possible to ensure Corbyn wins the next one...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,937
    Root was apparently laid low by viral gastroenteritis, rather than the heat (though that can't have helped). Finished asleep in the dressing room during the post match ceremonies...
    http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/21996114/joe-root-taken-hospital-gastroenteritis
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,937
    Still a longshot, but Oprah's presidential odds have surely shortened a bit ?
    https://slate.com/arts/2018/01/did-oprah-just-announce-a-presidential-campaign.html
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 40,050
    Good morning, everyone.

    Let us hope Hunt and Mordaunt get promotions.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 15,909
    Nigelb said:

    Still a longshot, but Oprah's presidential odds have surely shortened a bit ?
    https://slate.com/arts/2018/01/did-oprah-just-announce-a-presidential-campaign.html

    I wonder who her running mate would be. Winfrey-Warren would be bold but potentially electoral dynamite.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 15,460

    Sandpit said:

    There's some shocking revisionist history taking place on here which would make David Irving blush.

    Mrs May and her staff were/are arrogant bullies who liked to humiliate anyone who crosses them.

    George Osborne is typical of the behaviour meted out by them not atypical.

    I didn't give her the nickname the poundshop Gordon Brown without reason.

    They enjoyed sacking the SPADS/party staff on the evening of July 13th of 2016 with such glee. Some struggled to get home as they weren't allowed to retrieve their wallets/phones.


    The staff she sacked in July 2016 were asked to join the campaign, they said no, which contributed to the result.

    She and her staff regularly humiliated and denigrated David Cameron and his general election winning campaign.

    She ignored Cameron for months.

    Both Cameron and Sir John Major offered to help the Tories during the election campaign and were told 'No ta, Mrs May wants to own this result on her own, plus we don't need your help'

    Her election campaign strategy was based on doing what Dave and George did. How'd that turn out?

    Then she begged Dave to help her sell the DUP deal, an irony not lost on Dave.

    MRDA
    I was saying this the evening of July 13th when she started firing the help.

    Ask yourself, why has she exasperated party loyalists like JohnO with her behaviour?
    But none of that excuses the former Chancellor from working as hard as possible to ensure Corbyn won last year’s election, does it?
    Of more concern to the current membership is his working as hard as possible to ensure Corbyn wins the next one...
    Indeed so. Anyway, work to do so will catch up later with whatever happens in the reshuffle.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 13,415
    Hmm, some advice this morning from a crypto friend saying that DOGE might be the next XRP. If that's the case I might be able to quit working sooner rather than later. I'm already up from $0.0007 to $0.017.

    For a meme/joke currency it's not doing too badly. It has the potential to increase 100 fold from now, so might be worth a look for anyone who dabbles in crypto.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 5,721
    Nigelb said:

    Still a longshot, but Oprah's presidential odds have surely shortened a bit ?
    https://slate.com/arts/2018/01/did-oprah-just-announce-a-presidential-campaign.html

    As much much superior Oprah would be to Trump (well anyone would). Not sure the presidency should become a celebraty popularity contest.

    Can we have some actual good competent politicians?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,494
    Given Green's departure and the need to replace Mcloughin as party chairman a reshuffle of some type was inevitable, the question is its scope
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 16,526
    May having a reshuffle to distract from Toby Young ?

    Yer having a larf. Nobody outside of the left wing twitter mob gives an Aylesbury duck.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,494

    Nigelb said:

    Still a longshot, but Oprah's presidential odds have surely shortened a bit ?
    https://slate.com/arts/2018/01/did-oprah-just-announce-a-presidential-campaign.html

    I wonder who her running mate would be. Winfrey-Warren would be bold but potentially electoral dynamite.
    Oprah would have to win the Democratic primaries first, remember Trump only won as the Republican nominee and not as an independent.

    An Oprah Warren ticket is not impossible and would be hugely popular on the coasts and Chicago but is not necessarily what the Democrats need to win back the rustbelt states and the Electoral College where Trump has such a stranglehold in 2016
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,494

    Sandpit said:

    There's some shocking revisionist history taking place on here which would make David Irving blush.

    Mrs May and her staff were/are arrogant bullies who liked to humiliate anyone who crosses them.

    George Osborne is typical of the behaviour meted out by them not atypical.

    I didn't give her the nickname the poundshop Gordon Brown without reason.

    They enjoyed sacking the SPADS/party staff on the evening of July 13th of 2016 with such glee. Some struggled to get home as they weren't allowed to retrieve their wallets/phones.


    The staff she sacked in July 2016 were asked to join the campaign, they said no, which contributed to the result.

    She and her staff regularly humiliated and denigrated David Cameron and his general election winning campaign.

    She ignored Cameron for months.

    Both Cameron and Sir John Major offered to help the Tories during the election campaign and were told 'No ta, Mrs May wants to own this result on her own, plus we don't need your help'

    Her election campaign strategy was based on doing what Dave and George did. How'd that turn out?

    Then she begged Dave to help her sell the DUP deal, an irony not lost on Dave.

    MRDA
    I was saying this the evening of July 13th when she started firing the help.

    Ask yourself, why has she exasperated party loyalists like JohnO with her behaviour?
    But none of that excuses the former Chancellor from working as hard as possible to ensure Corbyn won last year’s election, does it?
    Seriously? What did he do?

    You know he was helping several Tory MPs during the campaign.

    He was devastated by the result, his and Dave's decade long hard work were undone in a few weeks by Mrs May.

    He absolutely loathes the policies of Corbyn and wanted Corbyn to getting an absolute gubbing.
    In the only elections Cameron's Tories faced Corbyn's Labour ie the 2016 local elections, Corbyn's Labour narrowly won
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 20,612
    MaxPB said:

    Hmm, some advice this morning from a crypto friend saying that DOGE might be the next XRP. If that's the case I might be able to quit working sooner rather than later. I'm already up from $0.0007 to $0.017.

    For a meme/joke currency it's not doing too badly. It has the potential to increase 100 fold from now, so might be worth a look for anyone who dabbles in crypto.

    Tulips.

    (And I speak as a man fortunate enough to have gotten out at the top.)
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 9,020
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    In Shippers' book about Brexit, there is a line about Conservative Remainers, faced with a hostile press, saying this must be what it is like to be Labour in a general election.

    I hold no brief for Osborne, who in my view helped poison the well of British politics with his American-style partisanship, as well as being an appalling Chancellor who choked off the economic recovery he inherited, but some of the opprobrium he has faced for editing a newspaper that has dared to question the omniscience of the government shows the sense of entitlement of the right in much the same way as the Brexit quote above.

    And it would still not surprise me to learn the over-theatrical dismissal was planned with Osborne himself.

    Funny, I thought he ended up with the highest growth rate in the G7.
    After he abandoned plan A, you mean?
    I don't think the plan was ever abandoned. It may have been slowed somewhat, but the direction was always the same.
    The name stayed the same. Even the targets stayed although they were kicked a bit further down the road each year -- which is part of the problem with Osborne: the targets were never intended to apply to him but were solely there as weapons against Labour.
    And yet the deficit was down, year on year. He could have cut faster, but why risk the strongest growth in the G7?
    That was exactly Labour's plan. Slow deficit reduction to not risk growth

    The plan Osborne got elected on was harsh savage cuts to eliminate the deficit fast.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 7,188
    TGOHF said:

    May having a reshuffle to distract from Toby Young ?

    Yer having a larf. Nobody outside of the left wing twitter mob gives an Aylesbury duck.

    Other way round on both counts. It is the right that cares, and Tobygate is being hyped to distract from a dull reshuffle whose highlight will be some bloke we've never heard of swapping jobs with a woman we don't care about.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 5,279
    So as a reward for sorting out all of the problems in the NHS, Hunt will be given a promotion and a wide-ranging brief where he can sprinkle the same fairy dust over the rest of our public services.

    I thought he was a pillock at Culture and was amazed when he was promoted to Health. And what a grand job he has done there. Add to that his cynical U-turn over his Brexit position, you have someone who should be sacked from the cabinet, rather than being made Tezzie's Veep.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 9,020
    Foxy said:
    To be fair to the 'head Creep shares a chord progression with the Hollies song, the first minute of Lana Del Ray's song is Creep exactly.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 5,279

    TGOHF said:

    May having a reshuffle to distract from Toby Young ?

    Yer having a larf. Nobody outside of the left wing twitter mob gives an Aylesbury duck.

    Other way round on both counts. It is the right that cares, and Tobygate is being hyped to distract from a dull reshuffle whose highlight will be some bloke we've never heard of swapping jobs with a woman we don't care about.
    Perhaps Toby can brighten up the reshuffle by commenting on the breasts of the female ministers as they enter No. 10?
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 6,276
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Hmm, some advice this morning from a crypto friend saying that DOGE might be the next XRP. If that's the case I might be able to quit working sooner rather than later. I'm already up from $0.0007 to $0.017.

    For a meme/joke currency it's not doing too badly. It has the potential to increase 100 fold from now, so might be worth a look for anyone who dabbles in crypto.

    Tulips.

    (And I speak as a man fortunate enough to have gotten out at the top.)
    You got out at peak tulip??? You're older than I thought.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 7,188

    When is this reshuffle anyway? Does the PM realise we have money riding on this? Will it be spread over two days like they used to be, Cabinet first then junior ministers the next day?

    One trap the PM might fall into is that describing sideways moves of junior ministers as promotion risks establishing a hierarchy of posts that will prove toxic later.

  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 8,720

    TGOHF said:

    May having a reshuffle to distract from Toby Young ?

    Yer having a larf. Nobody outside of the left wing twitter mob gives an Aylesbury duck.

    Other way round on both counts. It is the right that cares, and Tobygate is being hyped to distract from a dull reshuffle whose highlight will be some bloke we've never heard of swapping jobs with a woman we don't care about.
    Pretty rich considering the Labour front bench is almost full of people we've never heard of who are there because they don't question Corbz
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 8,720
    RMT strikes - no pickets at my Dorset station.

    I have little time for strikes anyway, but not even bothering to picket is pitiful. Nye Bevan will be turning in his grave.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 61
    Mortimer said:

    TGOHF said:

    May having a reshuffle to distract from Toby Young ?

    Yer having a larf. Nobody outside of the left wing twitter mob gives an Aylesbury duck.

    Other way round on both counts. It is the right that cares, and Tobygate is being hyped to distract from a dull reshuffle whose highlight will be some bloke we've never heard of swapping jobs with a woman we don't care about.
    Pretty rich considering the Labour front bench is almost full of people we've never heard of who are there because they don't question Corbz
    By don't question I assume you actually mean don't resign from the shadow cabinet and try to get rid of the leader against the will of the members....
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 13,415
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Hmm, some advice this morning from a crypto friend saying that DOGE might be the next XRP. If that's the case I might be able to quit working sooner rather than later. I'm already up from $0.0007 to $0.017.

    For a meme/joke currency it's not doing too badly. It has the potential to increase 100 fold from now, so might be worth a look for anyone who dabbles in crypto.

    Tulips.

    (And I speak as a man fortunate enough to have gotten out at the top.)
    When I made the original investment I remember thinking, get lots of something, even if they are only ever worth a penny or two, I'll have enough of them. Over 5m DOGE later, I think my theory makes sense. Especially after seeing XRP blow up.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,618
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Hmm, some advice this morning from a crypto friend saying that DOGE might be the next XRP. If that's the case I might be able to quit working sooner rather than later. I'm already up from $0.0007 to $0.017.

    For a meme/joke currency it's not doing too badly. It has the potential to increase 100 fold from now, so might be worth a look for anyone who dabbles in crypto.

    Tulips.

    (And I speak as a man fortunate enough to have gotten out at the top.)
    There was that classic BBG "DES" about a (recently-IPO'd) dotcom company:

    "This company has no assets, no revenue, and no business plan but will use the accumulated funds actively to seek out opportunities."
  • Sandpit said:

    Seriously? Short of saying “Vote Labour” on the front page, what didn’t he do? Headline after headline, editorial after editorial, day after day, week after week, month after month, before, during and after the election campaign.

    Tell me if you think this guy is devastated, or over the moon about the result?

    Months and months?

    He only took the reins of The Standard a month before Election Day and didn’t take proper control until a couple of weeks before Election Day.

    Do you think he was wrong when he said in the paper’ editorial attacked the ‘disastrous manifesto’ and says Britain ‘could not have got off to a worse start’ in Brexit process?

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/may/30/osbornes-evening-standard-savages-theresa-mays-election-campaign

    He criticised Corbyn & Labour’s policies more and was accused of being a racist for attacking Diane Abbott’s sums. Loughborough Uni analysed the front pages and stories and said The Standard was harsher on Labour/Corbyn.

    They endorsed the Tories ‘
    Evening Standard comment: Why we believe this country needs a strong Conservative team as the next government’

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/evening-standard-comment-why-we-believe-this-country-needs-a-strong-conservative-team-as-the-next-a3558971.html?amp

    You’ll have to trust me when I say he was gutted by the results but like me George is an optimist and when life hands you lemons you should make lemonade.

    We thought the result should be used to oust the cancer that was Mrs May and her staff and replace her with someone better like Amber Rudd.

    PS - Do you really think The Standard should be the mouth piece of the Tories? I prefer it to call it as it sees it.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 40,050
    edited January 8
    Mr. Alistair, disagree with your interpretation.

    Nobody wanted to risk growth, the question was the right balance and the policy difference was a difference in judgement on how to achieve the same outcome. There's no surprise Labour wanted to spend more than the Conservatives and increase the debt/have a higher deficit for longer.

    Edited extra bit: and debt interest repayments well exceed the Defence or Education budgets, and are nearly as much as both combined. Slower cuts and we'd now be paying more on servicing the debt than on both those departments.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 8,720

    Mortimer said:

    TGOHF said:

    May having a reshuffle to distract from Toby Young ?

    Yer having a larf. Nobody outside of the left wing twitter mob gives an Aylesbury duck.

    Other way round on both counts. It is the right that cares, and Tobygate is being hyped to distract from a dull reshuffle whose highlight will be some bloke we've never heard of swapping jobs with a woman we don't care about.
    Pretty rich considering the Labour front bench is almost full of people we've never heard of who are there because they don't question Corbz
    By don't question I assume you actually mean don't resign from the shadow cabinet and try to get rid of the leader against the will of the members....
    Loyalty cuts both ways. Doesn't Corbz have a responsibility to represent his members with the best talent available? Surely such a friendly politician could rise above the past?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 5,279
    Mortimer said:

    RMT strikes - no pickets at my Dorset station.

    I have little time for strikes anyway, but not even bothering to picket is pitiful. Nye Bevan will be turning in his grave.

    Picket line at Skipton at 06:45, same as every other strike day.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 13,415
    TOPPING said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Hmm, some advice this morning from a crypto friend saying that DOGE might be the next XRP. If that's the case I might be able to quit working sooner rather than later. I'm already up from $0.0007 to $0.017.

    For a meme/joke currency it's not doing too badly. It has the potential to increase 100 fold from now, so might be worth a look for anyone who dabbles in crypto.

    Tulips.

    (And I speak as a man fortunate enough to have gotten out at the top.)
    There was that classic BBG "DES" about a (recently-IPO'd) dotcom company:

    "This company has no assets, no revenue, and no business plan but will use the accumulated funds actively to seek out opportunities."
    All they need to do is say they are investing in the blockchain and sell the remaining shares a few hours later!
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 7,188

    Mr. Alistair, disagree with your interpretation.

    Nobody wanted to risk growth, the question was the right balance and the policy difference was a difference in judgement on how to achieve the same outcome. There's no surprise Labour wanted to spend more than the Conservatives and increase the debt/have a higher deficit for longer.

    Edited extra bit: and debt interest repayments well exceed the Defence or Education budgets, and are nearly as much as both combined. Slower cuts and we'd now be paying more on servicing the debt than on both those departments.

    Or possibly the plan was to stimulate economic growth.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 15,389
    Interesting Golden Globes. As the stars line up to support the power of women in the film industry, the Best Actress (Frances McDormand, Three Billboards) and the Best Supporting Actress (Alison Janney, I Tanya) get their awards for playing deeply, deeply unpleasant, violent, abusive, bullying women......
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,502
    Monday morning...

    Has anyone ever quit their job without something to go to? Did it work out?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 3,458


    Months and months?

    He only took the reins of The Standard a month before Election Day and didn’t take proper control until a couple of weeks before Election Day.

    Do you think he was wrong when he said in the paper’ editorial attacked the ‘disastrous manifesto’ and says Britain ‘could not have got off to a worse start’ in Brexit process?

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/may/30/osbornes-evening-tandard-savages-theresa-mays-election-campaign

    He criticised Corbyn & Labour’s policies more and was accused of being a racist for attacking Diane Abbott’s sums. Loughborough Uni analysed the front pages and stories and said The Standard was harsher on Labour/Corbyn.

    They endorsed the Tories ‘
    Evening Standard comment: Why we believe this country needs a strong Conservative team as the next government’

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/evening-standard-comment-why-we-believe-this-country-needs-a-strong-conservative-team-as-the-next-a3558971.html?amp

    You’ll have to trust me when I say he was gutted by the results but like me George is an optimist and when life hands you lemons you should make lemonade.

    We thought the result should be used to oust the cancer that was Mrs May and her staff and replace her with someone better like Amber Rudd.

    PS - Do you really think The Standard should be the mouth piece of the Tories? I prefer it to call it as it sees it.

    Indeed, the Evening Standard is virulently anti-Corbyn. He is regularly pilloried in the cartoons and the editorials but whether any of that will have the slightest impact in the local elections remains to be seen.

    The paper quoted the Hayward analysis (not sure if even mentioned here) that the Conservatives are likely to lose Barnet and Kingston In May and could be in trouble in a number of their other Boroughs.

    The paper's view on Sadiq Khan is far more equivocal and the criticisms far more muted.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 40,050
    Mr. L, economic growth may have been higher, the question is whether that would've exceeded the growth in debt given the deficit would be larger and interest payments have snowballed alarmingly.

    Osborne's judgement was closer to being correct, I think.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 1,486

    Sandpit said:

    Seriously? Short of saying “Vote Labour” on the front page, what didn’t he do? Headline after headline, editorial after editorial, day after day, week after week, month after month, before, during and after the election campaign.

    Tell me if you think this guy is devastated, or over the moon about the result?

    Months and months?

    He only took the reins of The Standard a month before Election Day and didn’t take proper control until a couple of weeks before Election Day.

    Do you think he was wrong when he said in the paper’ editorial attacked the ‘disastrous manifesto’ and says Britain ‘could not have got off to a worse start’ in Brexit process?

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/may/30/osbornes-evening-standard-savages-theresa-mays-election-campaign

    He criticised Corbyn & Labour’s policies more and was accused of being a racist for attacking Diane Abbott’s sums. Loughborough Uni analysed the front pages and stories and said The Standard was harsher on Labour/Corbyn.

    They endorsed the Tories ‘
    Evening Standard comment: Why we believe this country needs a strong Conservative team as the next government’

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/evening-standard-comment-why-we-believe-this-country-needs-a-strong-conservative-team-as-the-next-a3558971.html?amp

    You’ll have to trust me when I say he was gutted by the results but like me George is an optimist and when life hands you lemons you should make lemonade.

    We thought the result should be used to oust the cancer that was Mrs May and her staff and replace her with someone better like Amber Rudd.

    PS - Do you really think The Standard should be the mouth piece of the Tories? I prefer it to call it as it sees it.
    A cancer? Really?

    As for Amber Rudd, I don’t think the electorate is looking for somebody to hector them in a joyless loud voice.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 7,188
    Jonathan said:

    Monday morning...

    Has anyone ever quit their job without something to go to? Did it work out?

    Yes. No.

    Otoh in recent years I've seen a lot of former colleagues treat redundancy as an excuse for a mid-life gap year world tour.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 3,458
    Mortimer said:

    RMT strikes - no pickets at my Dorset station.

    I have little time for strikes anyway, but not even bothering to picket is pitiful. Nye Bevan will be turning in his grave.

    I'd have thought not turning up for work and reducing SWR's service by 30% was fairly effective though SWR's routine litany of day-to-day problems means a 30% service reduction running on time would probably seem a pretty good service to most.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,618

    Interesting Golden Globes. As the stars line up to support the power of women in the film industry, the Best Actress (Frances McDormand, Three Billboards) and the Best Supporting Actress (Alison Janney, I Tanya) get their awards for playing deeply, deeply unpleasant, violent, abusive, bullying women......

    Plus you've never seen so much exposed flesh from those women dressed in black. There are deep contradictions at the heart of Hollywood and the film industry. Not to say they are all benign or malevolent, plus they make some fantastic films. Just that it is a curiosity.
This discussion has been closed.