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  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Explicitly recognising Social Care is sensible and overdue. If there is an associated increase in budget to accompany the rebrand.

    Even without an increase in overall budget it's a very good idea.
    Unless there is a reorg in the way it is overseen and delivered (horrible word) then little will change. If he is responsible and accountable then that will mean a real and welcome change.
    Health and Social Care should come together. If nothing else this now means Hunt is responsible for Social Care. Because at the moment the responsibility was dumped on councils but without either the funding or the ability to fund raise. This was causing a serious crisis both in social care provision and in Local Government funding.
    So if the central government takes over responsibility for social care then does that mean that funding for Local Government, our Council Tax rates can be cut?
    Central government kept most of the funding that used to cover Social Care, gave a small percentage to local government and refused to let them raise the rest. The "Social Care Levy" could be cut from council tax, but as the government grant to LAs is being cut to £0 by 2019 leaving most of them sliding towards severe financial issues, most would look to keep it.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 15,953
    The reshuffle was meant to reassert May’s authority, right?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,511
    DHSS
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,890
    @PickardJE: "DCLG" becoming "the housing ministry" is like when Prince changed his name to symbol and was still Prince
  • Today's reshuffle is worse than a Corbyn reshuffle.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 308

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Explicitly recognising Social Care is sensible and overdue. If there is an associated increase in budget to accompany the rebrand.

    Even without an increase in overall budget it's a very good idea.
    Unless there is a reorg in the way it is overseen and delivered (horrible word) then little will change. If he is responsible and accountable then that will mean a real and welcome change.
    Health and Social Care should come together. If nothing else this now means Hunt is responsible for Social Care. Because at the moment the responsibility was dumped on councils but without either the funding or the ability to fund raise. This was causing a serious crisis both in social care provision and in Local Government funding.
    So if the central government takes over responsibility for social care then does that mean that funding for Local Government, our Council Tax rates can be cut?
    Wanna guess?
    Very interesting question, though. There is an explicit Adult Social Care precept on Council Tax bills now - it's listed as a separate line.

    So given that this is hypothecated funding, if the funding is coming from central government, it should now be moved to a national tax. Which means an income tax or NI rise, or something equivalent.

    Or, alternatively, the Adult Social Care precept could be replaced by a general uplift in council tax to match it, and DCLG could taketh away with the other hand in some area.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,555
    Maguire says Hunt refused to accept a 'demotion' to Business Secretary and questions too about Milton's husbands links to a private healthcare firm

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Kevin_Maguire/status/950407342239121408
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,926

    I love the way journalists make up stories about some minister being moved and then when it doesn't happen make up another story about the minister refusing to budge.

    Especially when the minister is Greg Clark, whose political clout in a hypothetical refusal to budge would be approximately the square root of zero.

    The completely resistible force meets the free float object?

    That tweet isn't looking so clever is it?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 10,735

    Anazina said:

    According to the Beeb the vitally important reception is for Welsh Assembly members.

    Good to see Wales being recognised
    Clearly your heroine May hadn't realised Wales existed a month ago, when this reshuffle was scheduled.
    The disaster in politics is Wales labour with a disgraceful record on health and education. I waited 64 weeks for my hernia operation. Furthermore Wales labour is embroiled in accusations of bullying and the sad suicide of Carl Sargeant. And we have had 5% year on year increases in council tax for the last five years
    Can't agree on a personal level with your statements, particularly in terms of the health service in Wales which from my own experience is very different from yours. The service provided has improved substantially over the last 6 years.

    My Mother died in 2011 in the Princess of Wales Hospital in Bridgend, mid scandal. The service she received was negligent and her last day on this earth was truly shocking and a moral disgrace.

    My 86 year old Father has been in the same hospital since a car accident on 11th October. The quality of service has been exceptional! The clinical care has been faultless and the management at ward level has been highly professional. True, some of the staff couldn't care less, but these people are in the minority and generally agency nurses.

    I suspect there is more to the Carl Sargeant issue than meets the eye, but I do hope his son wins the seat in The Welsh Assembly.
    North Wales health care is in constant crisis and is adversely featured all the time in the local media. However, I agree with you over Carl's son


  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,890
    @coyleneil: 3 Tory select committee chairs have questioned #TobyYoung appointment in today's debate. Govt embarrassing itself in failing to sack him.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 6,278

    Today's reshuffle is worse than a Corbyn reshuffle.

    We are yet to get into day 4....
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 16,541

    Today's reshuffle is worse than a Corbyn reshuffle.

    Acolyte of Pasty Tax inventor gets over excited again.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 1,928

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Explicitly recognising Social Care is sensible and overdue. If there is an associated increase in budget to accompany the rebrand.

    Even without an increase in overall budget it's a very good idea.
    Unless there is a reorg in the way it is overseen and delivered (horrible word) then little will change. If he is responsible and accountable then that will mean a real and welcome change.
    Health and Social Care should come together. If nothing else this now means Hunt is responsible for Social Care. Because at the moment the responsibility was dumped on councils but without either the funding or the ability to fund raise. This was causing a serious crisis both in social care provision and in Local Government funding.
    So if the central government takes over responsibility for social care then does that mean that funding for Local Government, our Council Tax rates can be cut?
    Wanna guess?
    Very interesting question, though. There is an explicit Adult Social Care precept on Council Tax bills now - it's listed as a separate line.

    So given that this is hypothecated funding, if the funding is coming from central government, it should now be moved to a national tax. Which means an income tax or NI rise, or something equivalent.

    Or, alternatively, the Adult Social Care precept could be replaced by a general uplift in council tax to match it, and DCLG could taketh away with the other hand in some area.
    Let's be realistic, this renaming of Health will be not thought through in any way.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 12,944
    Jonathan said:

    DHSS

    DHSS was Health and Social Security (i.e. dole), not social care.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 17,291
    Also, I think it's extremely unlikely that Theresa May was planning to move Jeremy Hunt. It would look like an admission of failure on the NHS and an endorsement of Labour's 'winter crisis' attack line. I know that she's not very good at politics, but I don't think she's that bad.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 293

    The reshuffle was meant to reassert May’s authority, right?

    The Day of the Long Faces
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,890

    Also, I think it's extremely unlikely that Theresa May was planning to move Jeremy Hunt. It would look like an admission of failure on the NHS and an endorsement of Labour's 'winter crisis' attack line. I know that she's not very good at politics, but I don't think she's that bad.

    This reshuffle is beginning to make the election campaign look masterful
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 9,837

    The big story coming out of this is the combination of Health and Social care in one department

    Let's hope that this is the beginning of a grown up debate seeking consensus and taking this most important of subjects out of party politics

    For what it's worth, I think it's a good idea - I never did understand why the old DHSS was split up.

    That said, the way it was announced makes it appear as a side-effect of Hunt and Clark being unable to agree on Hunt moving to BEIS. It would have been much better not to have a reshuffle (given that almost nobody is moving) but simply to have announced the merger of health and social care, which would have focused attention and (perhaps!) constructive discussion on the change.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,890
    @ShippersUnbound: Greg Clark got Downing Street to sack his own special adviser because he didn’t even have the guts to go that himself. He is held in contempt in Whitehall
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 6,278
    JonathanD said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Explicitly recognising Social Care is sensible and overdue. If there is an associated increase in budget to accompany the rebrand.

    Even without an increase in overall budget it's a very good idea.
    Unless there is a reorg in the way it is overseen and delivered (horrible word) then little will change. If he is responsible and accountable then that will mean a real and welcome change.
    Health and Social Care should come together. If nothing else this now means Hunt is responsible for Social Care. Because at the moment the responsibility was dumped on councils but without either the funding or the ability to fund raise. This was causing a serious crisis both in social care provision and in Local Government funding.
    So if the central government takes over responsibility for social care then does that mean that funding for Local Government, our Council Tax rates can be cut?
    Wanna guess?
    Very interesting question, though. There is an explicit Adult Social Care precept on Council Tax bills now - it's listed as a separate line.

    So given that this is hypothecated funding, if the funding is coming from central government, it should now be moved to a national tax. Which means an income tax or NI rise, or something equivalent.

    Or, alternatively, the Adult Social Care precept could be replaced by a general uplift in council tax to match it, and DCLG could taketh away with the other hand in some area.
    Let's be realistic, this renaming of Health will be not thought through in any way.
    You should be pleased, Hunt completing Bevan's vision after seventy years.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 9,837

    Jonathan said:

    DHSS

    DHSS was Health and Social Security (i.e. dole), not social care.
    Didn't it cover social services too? It's a long time ago, maybe I'm wrong!
  • So much then for the reshuffle of Strength. Hunt (and/or Clarke) folds arms and stamps foot. "Shan't". Oh ok then says Mrs Strong, and gives Hunt not only his old job back but even more as a reward.

    As for the Social Care funding piece, can I restate that the government transferred responsibility to Local Authorities but not the funding to provide services they are responsible for. The levy only covers a small proportion of their liabilities.
  • At this rate Lord Falconer will find he's still in post.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 25,278
    edited January 8
    This reshuffle has merely reinforced just how constrained and weak May is - which is presumably the opposite of what it was supposed to achieve. She cannot move the legion of deadweight and imbecility in the cabinet because it might cause her problems on her own side. It's no way to run a government.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 19,519
    murali_s said:

    Anazina said:

    Miss Anazina, given politics is a choice (in this case largely between Conservative and Labour), how is "the Conservatives are better than Labour" a weak argument?

    A choice made by the hard-right loons of the DUP in this case, yes, point taken.
    +1

    DUP are scum! Utter, utter scum...

    Just shows how low the Tories have fallen!
    There's no point moaning about the result that the voters have delivered. Con plus DUP was the only combination that commanded a majority in the Commons.

    The government is pretty mediocre, but it does no harm, whereas their opponents would do a lot of harm,
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 308
    If it really is true that Hunt refused to move, Greening will be feeling emboldened.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 17,291

    For what it's worth, I think it's a good idea - I never did understand why the old DHSS was split up.

    As @rottenborough has pointed out, the old DHSS was responsible for healthcare and for social security benefits, i.e. pensions and unemployment benefits etc. Putting those together didn't make any sense.
  • So there was much debate about could May survive the impact of sacked ministers being thrown out onto the backbenches to stir up trouble,

    Instead we have the opposite problem - they get the sack, refuse to leave, get reinstated, and stir up trouble from inside the cabinet. Makes the useful idiots who were happy to lead the way spinning about how strong she now is look like utter fools.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,890
    @PaulBrandITV: Gavin Williamson leaves telling me he’s ‘very pleased’ to be staying at Defence. Shocker. #reshuffle
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 16,541
    edited January 8
    image

    BBC staunchly against Romanist influences - good to see.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 40,084
    May's lack of judgement is genuinely interesting. Not quite at Honorius levels, but still terrible.
  • Perhaps the reshuffle is actually going to be 'herself'
  • Bob__SykesBob__Sykes Posts: 985
    Perhaps Theresa May will surprise us by reshuffling herself??

    I despair, although I continue to feel slightly sorry for her in the way I came to pity Gordon Brown in the end....
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,890
    Heeeeeeere's Charlie !!!

    @LordCFalconer: Photo opp with chair and Vice chairs of Tory Party in front of No 10 looks breach of ministerial code prohibiting govt property being used for party purposes. Ministers with official residences can use them for party functions if they pay, but not as backdrop for photo shoots.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,511

    For what it's worth, I think it's a good idea - I never did understand why the old DHSS was split up.

    As @rottenborough has pointed out, the old DHSS was responsible for healthcare and for social security benefits, i.e. pensions and unemployment benefits etc. Putting those together didn't make any sense.
    Social care fell under DHSS scope.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,555

    For what it's worth, I think it's a good idea - I never did understand why the old DHSS was split up.

    As @rottenborough has pointed out, the old DHSS was responsible for healthcare and for social security benefits, i.e. pensions and unemployment benefits etc. Putting those together didn't make any sense.
    National Insurance was originally set up to fund healthcare, pensions and unemployment benefits. It should return to funding those and social care
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,926

    The big story coming out of this is the combination of Health and Social care in one department

    Let's hope that this is the beginning of a grown up debate seeking consensus and taking this most important of subjects out of party politics

    For what it's worth, I think it's a good idea - I never did understand why the old DHSS was split up.

    Would 1 reason not be that these days the old DHSS would have a budget of nearly as much as all the other departments put together?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,890
    @PaulBrandITV: ACTUAL NEWS: David Gauke moves to Justice #reshuffle
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,555
    No it isn't, even Barnier has said we will get a Canada style FTA on goods if we leave the single market and end free movement
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,890
    @LOS_Fisher: David Gauke moves to Justice. Makes sense - he was a corporate lawyer at Macfarlanes before entering parliament. Judiciary likely to be relieved that the new justice sec, unlike some of his predecessors, has a good grasp of law.

    Great! Oh, wait...

    @paulwaugh: Gauke to Justice feels like a real error. He's a former solicitor but just got his feet under table at DWP on #UniversalCredit
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 1,925

    At this rate Lord Falconer will find he's still in post.

    He's not resigned yet? Jeez!
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,511
    Scott_P said:

    @PaulBrandITV: ACTUAL NEWS: David Gauke moves to Justice #reshuffle

    Now all the fuss makes sense. The journalists will at last be satisfied with this momentous news.
  • Bob__SykesBob__Sykes Posts: 985
    Scott_P said:

    @PaulBrandITV: ACTUAL NEWS: David Gauke moves to Justice #reshuffle

    I suppose he is actually a solicitor so that's something....
  • NEW THREAD

  • valleyboyvalleyboy Posts: 355

    Anazina said:

    According to the Beeb the vitally important reception is for Welsh Assembly members.

    Good to see Wales being recognised
    Clearly your heroine May hadn't realised Wales existed a month ago, when this reshuffle was scheduled.
    The disaster in politics is Wales labour with a disgraceful record on health and education. I waited 64 weeks for my hernia operation. Furthermore Wales labour is embroiled in accusations of bullying and the sad suicide of Carl Sargeant. And we have had 5% year on year increases in council tax for the last five years
    Can't agree on a personal level with your statements, particularly in terms of the health service in Wales which from my own experience is very different from yours. The service provided has improved substantially over the last 6 years.

    My Mother died in 2011 in the Princess of Wales Hospital in Bridgend, mid scandal. The service she received was negligent and her last day on this earth was truly shocking and a moral disgrace.

    My 86 year old Father has been in the same hospital since a car accident on 11th October. The quality of service has been exceptional! The clinical care has been faultless and the management at ward level has been highly professional. True, some of the staff couldn't care less, but these people are in the minority and generally agency nurses.

    I suspect there is more to the Carl Sargeant issue than meets the eye, but I do hope his son wins the seat in The Welsh Assembly.
    North Wales health care is in constant crisis and is adversely featured all the time in the local media. However, I agree with you over Carl's son


    I find, as a fellow Welsh man, you're constant belittling of the NHS very sad. Despite living in West Wales I had elective treatment in Wrexham Maelor a couple of years back. The treatment was exemplary. I did note however how incredibly busy the hospital was, day and night. Perhaps your future posts should be a bit more balanced.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,926
    Scott_P said:

    @LOS_Fisher: David Gauke moves to Justice. Makes sense - he was a corporate lawyer at Macfarlanes before entering parliament. Judiciary likely to be relieved that the new justice sec, unlike some of his predecessors, has a good grasp of law.

    Great! Oh, wait...

    @paulwaugh: Gauke to Justice feels like a real error. He's a former solicitor but just got his feet under table at DWP on #UniversalCredit

    Esther McVey has some relevant experience of that department.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 17,291
    Jonathan said:

    For what it's worth, I think it's a good idea - I never did understand why the old DHSS was split up.

    As @rottenborough has pointed out, the old DHSS was responsible for healthcare and for social security benefits, i.e. pensions and unemployment benefits etc. Putting those together didn't make any sense.
    Social care fell under DHSS scope.
    Did it? If so, it was a minor part of the DHSS budget and activities, and I'm fairly sure that local authorities were also involved in providing the services.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 15,953
    HYUFD said:

    No it isn't, even Barnier has said we will get a Canada style FTA on goods if we leave the single market and end free movement
    Where ‘we’ doesn’t mean the United Kingdom, but Great Britain. Can the Conservative and Unionist Party, propped up by the DUP, afford to do that?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,511

    Jonathan said:

    For what it's worth, I think it's a good idea - I never did understand why the old DHSS was split up.

    As @rottenborough has pointed out, the old DHSS was responsible for healthcare and for social security benefits, i.e. pensions and unemployment benefits etc. Putting those together didn't make any sense.
    Social care fell under DHSS scope.
    Did it? If so, it was a minor part of the DHSS budget and activities, and I'm fairly sure that local authorities were also involved in providing the services.
    They were. Under the auspices of the DHSS and the 1970 act.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 13,417
    This is a reshuffle carried out by a micromanager. That much is obvious.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,555

    HYUFD said:

    No it isn't, even Barnier has said we will get a Canada style FTA on goods if we leave the single market and end free movement
    Where ‘we’ doesn’t mean the United Kingdom, but Great Britain. Can the Conservative and Unionist Party, propped up by the DUP, afford to do that?
    Wrong again, the border issue re regulatory alignment was settled before trade talks began
This discussion has been closed.