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  • kle4kle4 Posts: 28,045

    This reshuffle has got to be one of the most pointless reshuffles ever. Long term, it’s likely caused more trouble for May, with Greening’s departure.

    And in a day where TMay promoted Badenoch and Cleverly (probably hoping to get good headlines from it as well) Sam Coates tweeted this lol:

    Isn't every day promote white men day?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,555

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Honestly, how could May have survived so long in politics and been so utterly rubbish at it?

    How?

    She's rubbish at politics, okay at administration.
    And by administration you mean what, exactly? Because she appears to be utterly useless at developing and managing a team. Is she fantastically good at filing? Is that it?
    In terms of doing Brexit and economic management, she's okay. Not great, but okay.
    Again, you are suffering from delusions of mediocrity. She is bloody awful on the first point, and largely uninvolved on the latter one.
    You only say that because she is taking us out of Europe against your wishes, but in accordance with tbe result of a democratic vote
    No. I say that because she has proved utterly hopeless at finding a way forward that commands broad support across the country. Tin-eared, stubborn and unable to find compromise, three personal traits that should rule one out of leading a whelk stall, let alone a country.
    But your broad support is to retain free movement and effectively stay tied to the EU. That will not happen
    Given that a majority think that Brexit was the wrong decision, why do you say that? Any attempt to force through a hard Brexit will just galvanise and broaden support for abandoning the whole thing.
    They don't, the last yougov had Leave ahead by 9%
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 10,735

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Honestly, how could May have survived so long in politics and been so utterly rubbish at it?

    How?

    She's rubbish at politics, okay at administration.
    And by administration you mean what, exactly? Because she appears to be utterly useless at developing and managing a team. Is she fantastically good at filing? Is that it?
    In terms of doing Brexit and economic management, she's okay. Not great, but okay.
    Again, you are suffering from delusions of mediocrity. She is bloody awful on the first point, and largely uninvolved on the latter one.
    You only say that because she is taking us out of Europe against your wishes, but in accordance with tbe result of a democratic vote
    No. I say that because she has proved utterly hopeless at finding a way forward that commands broad support across the country. Tin-eared, stubborn and unable to find compromise, three personal traits that should rule one out of leading a whelk stall, let alone a country.
    But your broad support is to retain free movement and effectively stay tied to the EU. That will not happen
    Given that a majority think that Brexit was the wrong decision, why do you say that? Any attempt to force through a hard Brexit will just galvanise and broaden support for abandoning the whole thing.
    Last I saw it was 44/45 and no evidence of Brexit regret. And WTO is unlikely to happen

    You follow your daily mangra that it will be stopped but I see no mechanism for that to happen
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 293

    Anazina said:

    HYUFD

    Again, you can't infer that from the vote, the ballot paper said leave the EU, nothing more. And we have already had this conversation. Once again you are projecting your own contentions and presenting them as fact.

    This obsession with forcing restrictions on free movement on places that haven't asked for them is preventing sensible solutions from being found. Why not use regional visas in London as Canada does in some provinces? What is wrong with that idea exactly? Difficult times require imaginative thinking, not stubbornness.

    It genuinely is an obsession – this stopping the foreigners coming in – both of brexiteers and neobrexiteers like yourself who suffer from the zeal of the convert.

    Once we have control I have no problem with work visas for anyone from anywhere in the globe coming to live, work and contribute to the UK. I detest this word used by so many ' foreigners'
    Indeed, I am sure that is true, but my post was aimed at HYUFD not your good self.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 28,045

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2018/01/theresa-mays-treatment-justine-greening-makes-no-sense-all

    It is increasingly hard not to suspect that Theresa May is a particularly well-placed Labour mole who has succeeded well beyond her handlers’ wildest dreams.

    Not really, since Labour are still not consistently ahead by any great distance. I think Labour will win the next GE, largest party if not outright, but that's far from certain. That's just the same lazy cliche people pull out whenever a leader looks crap, 'oh look, they are probably a plant'. It wasn't particularly witty when it was being thrown in Corbyn's direction either, but for some reason commentators think its clever.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 28,045

    kle4 said:


    Hmm, sounds like a tough returning officer. The story on the same thing happening in Montgomeryshire, but the vote being accepted, doesn't mention to tumescence of the member in question.

    I've said before though I do disagree with the decision to accept one where the candidates name was crossed out and replaced with 'Anuerin Bevan'. That to me is ambiguous, in that they might be saying they would only vote for that party if the candidate were Bevan, which they were not.

    I think the winning candidate was so far ahead it really didn't matter.

    .
    It always matters! The winner may already have been clear, but the true outcome means knowing what every valid vote contributed!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 15,953
    HYUFD said:

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Honestly, how could May have survived so long in politics and been so utterly rubbish at it?

    How?

    She's rubbish at politics, okay at administration.
    And by administration you mean what, exactly? Because she appears to be utterly useless at developing and managing a team. Is she fantastically good at filing? Is that it?
    In terms of doing Brexit and economic management, she's okay. Not great, but okay.
    Again, you are suffering from delusions of mediocrity. She is bloody awful on the first point, and largely uninvolved on the latter one.
    You only say that because she is taking us out of Europe against your wishes, but in accordance with tbe result of a democratic vote
    No. I say that because she has proved utterly hopeless at finding a way forward that commands broad support across the country. Tin-eared, stubborn and unable to find compromise, three personal traits that should rule one out of leading a whelk stall, let alone a country.
    But your broad support is to retain free movement and effectively stay tied to the EU. That will not happen
    Given that a majority think that Brexit was the wrong decision, why do you say that? Any attempt to force through a hard Brexit will just galvanise and broaden support for abandoning the whole thing.
    They don't, the last yougov had Leave ahead by 9%
    Right: 42%
    Wrong: 45%
    (Dec 19-20)

    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/krjo4jgddj/YG Trackers - EU Tracker Questions_W.pdf
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 61,065
    edited January 8
    kle4 said:

    This reshuffle has got to be one of the most pointless reshuffles ever. Long term, it’s likely caused more trouble for May, with Greening’s departure.

    And in a day where TMay promoted Badenoch and Cleverly (probably hoping to get good headlines from it as well) Sam Coates tweeted this lol:

    Isn't every day promote white men day?
    I now understand why I didn't get a phone call from Mrs May today.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 28,045

    kle4 said:

    This reshuffle has got to be one of the most pointless reshuffles ever. Long term, it’s likely caused more trouble for May, with Greening’s departure.

    And in a day where TMay promoted Badenoch and Cleverly (probably hoping to get good headlines from it as well) Sam Coates tweeted this lol:

    Isn't every day promote white men day?
    I now understand why didn't get a phone call from Mrs May today.
    I too am surprised - I'd think she'd enjoy blowing off steam by hurling obscenities at her internal critics :)
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 293
    HYUFD said:

    Anazina said:

    HYUFD

    Again, you can't infer that from the vote, the ballot paper said leave the EU, nothing more. And we have already had this conversation. Once again you are projecting your own contentions and presenting them as fact.

    This obsession with forcing restrictions on free movement on places that haven't asked for them is preventing sensible solutions from being found. Why not use regional visas in London as Canada does in some provinces? What is wrong with that idea exactly? Difficult times require imaginative thinking, not stubbornness.

    It genuinely is an obsession – this stopping the foreigners coming in – both of brexiteers and neobrexiteers like yourself who suffer from the zeal of the convert.

    80% voted for end free movement parties in June as Corbyn also backs ending it. Though much of the blame lies with Blair for failing to impose transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries in 2004
    A red herring given that said controls would have long expired by now anyway. Most people were relatively sanguine about the situation until Farage went for broke and fronted up a poster showing swarthy figures in queues at the border, composed in a similar style to that used by the Nazis.
  • kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    This reshuffle has got to be one of the most pointless reshuffles ever. Long term, it’s likely caused more trouble for May, with Greening’s departure.

    And in a day where TMay promoted Badenoch and Cleverly (probably hoping to get good headlines from it as well) Sam Coates tweeted this lol:

    Isn't every day promote white men day?
    I now understand why didn't get a phone call from Mrs May today.
    I too am surprised - I'd think she'd enjoy blowing off steam by hurling obscenities at her internal critics :)
    If she enjoyed sacking George Osborne, she'd have loved sacking me.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 9,054

    kle4 said:

    This reshuffle has got to be one of the most pointless reshuffles ever. Long term, it’s likely caused more trouble for May, with Greening’s departure.

    And in a day where TMay promoted Badenoch and Cleverly (probably hoping to get good headlines from it as well) Sam Coates tweeted this lol:

    Isn't every day promote white men day?
    I now understand why I didn't get a phone call from Mrs May today.
    I always suspected you were a women

    You have beautiful knockers

    Love

    Toby
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 6,325
    edited January 8
    kle4 said:

    This reshuffle has got to be one of the most pointless reshuffles ever. Long term, it’s likely caused more trouble for May, with Greening’s departure.

    And in a day where TMay promoted Badenoch and Cleverly (probably hoping to get good headlines from it as well) Sam Coates tweeted this lol:

    Isn't every day promote white men day?
    Twitter agrees with you (tbh I agree with you).



    This made me laugh:

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,604
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Damian Hinds gets worse.

    1) He's a Papist

    2) He went to Oxford

    3) He read PPE

    Hello - what's wrong with your number (1)? Substitute some other religion, preferably using a vaguely derogatory term, if that helps.
    Some Catholics only have a loyalty to the Pope/Rome and not the UK.

    Cf - Jacob Rees-Mogg

    http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/02/04/tory-mp-rees-mogg-i-take-my-whip-from-the-roman-catholic-church/
    I appear to have been transported back to the seventeenth century.

    Catholics are not loyal to the UK - Okaaay. We'd better have the vote removed then. Maybe expulsion is in order.

    Honestly: if someone said that of Muslims you'd be - rightly - all over them. When some attack Jews for being part of some global Jewish conspiracy with no loyalty to the nation where they live you attack them for channelling classic anti-semitic tropes.

    But when one MP explains his views on religious issues you extrapolate that to Catholics - only some mind (though on what basis it's not clear). Perhaps Catholics should be forced to sign up to some form of loyalty test. I believe someone in UKIP suggested something similar a while back.

    Pfft.....
    You've been a bit hair-trigger and huffy, recently, lashing out at several posters.

    Perhaps take a bit of a chill pill?
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 270
    Anazina said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Damian Hinds gets worse.

    1) He's a Papist

    2) He went to Oxford

    3) He read PPE

    Hello - what's wrong with your number (1)? Substitute some other religion, preferably using a vaguely derogatory term, if that helps.
    Some Catholics only have a loyalty to the Pope/Rome and not the UK.

    Cf - Jacob Rees-Mogg

    http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/02/04/tory-mp-rees-mogg-i-take-my-whip-from-the-roman-catholic-church/
    I appear to have been transported back to the seventeenth century.

    Catholics are not loyal to the UK - Okaaay. We'd better have the vote removed then. Maybe expulsion is in order.

    Honestly: if someone said that of Muslims you'd be - rightly - all over them. When some attack Jews for being part of some global Jewish conspiracy with no loyalty to the nation where they live you attack them for channelling classic anti-semitic tropes.

    But when one MP explains his views on religious issues you extrapolate that to Catholics - only some mind (though on what basis it's not clear). Perhaps Catholics should be forced to sign up to some form of loyalty test. I believe someone in UKIP suggested something similar a while back.

    Pfft.....
    It is a joke.

    Someone on here said they had qualms about a Muslim Mayor of London but had no qualms about JRM as PM.

    We've had some shameful anti-Catholic laws in this country, some only repealed quite recently
    Yes, most of them involved the monarchy – a bastion of reactionary thinking that has long past its sell-by date.
    The whole point of the monarchy's Catholic ban was to stop it becoming a bastion of reactionary thinking. Catholic monarchs tended to believe in divine right of Kings etc. Given the UK became a constitutional democracy without any revolutions subsequent to the ban, it looks like a good decision.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 12,280
    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Damian Hinds gets worse.

    1) He's a Papist

    2) He went to Oxford

    3) He read PPE

    Hello - what's wrong with your number (1)? Substitute some other religion, preferably using a vaguely derogatory term, if that helps.
    He believes in Sky Fairy Magic and not science and evidence ... and we're making him responsible for Education?

    .
    Umm, you're only allowed to be in charge of Education if you are an atheist?!

    I am an atheist and that seems...an extreme view.
    Atheist, agnostic or religious in name only.

    If you actually *believe* in your religion, especially if to the extent that you'll let that influence your votes, then yes I would be cynical about you being in charge.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 293

    This reshuffle has got to be one of the most pointless reshuffles ever. Long term, it’s likely caused more trouble for May, with Greening’s departure.

    And in a day where TMay promoted Badenoch and Cleverly (probably hoping to get good headlines from it as well) Sam Coates tweeted this lol:

    I think it IS the worst reshuffle ever isn't it? No-one has been reshuffled have they, surely that is the key criteria of a reshuffle? One SoC has quit of her own accord while another has left due to ill health. The fact that the government have been trailing it for weeks just makes the whole fiasco even more embarrassing.

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 12,280
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Damian Hinds gets worse.

    1) He's a Papist

    2) He went to Oxford

    3) He read PPE

    Hello - what's wrong with your number (1)? Substitute some other religion, preferably using a vaguely derogatory term, if that helps.
    He believes in Sky Fairy Magic and not science and evidence ... and we're making him responsible for Education?

    Feel free to switch that with some other religion if you wish.
    You're making a wholly unsubstantiated assumption that if you are religious you do not believe in science or evidence. Try telling that to all the doctors and scientists and teachers and lawyers and judges who are practising Jews or Muslims or Christians or Hindus or Sikhs or Quakers.

    Not everyone who is religious is some sort of creationist.
    But you'd take issue with 'some sort of creationist'? So you do draw a line somewhere?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,604
    Scott_P said:

    @PaulBrandITV: NEW: Esther McVey becomes Sec of State for Work and Pensions. She’s had problems before getting her tone right in that dept so will be an interesting one to watch #cabinetreshuffle

    Good appointment - I like Esther a lot. But, also a high-risk one.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 28,045
    Anazina said:

    This reshuffle has got to be one of the most pointless reshuffles ever. Long term, it’s likely caused more trouble for May, with Greening’s departure.

    And in a day where TMay promoted Badenoch and Cleverly (probably hoping to get good headlines from it as well) Sam Coates tweeted this lol:

    The fact that the government have been trailing it for weeks just makes the whole fiasco even more embarrassing.

    That, at least, is true - having bigged it up so much, one would reasonably have assumed bigger moves were afoot.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 293
    Elliot said:

    Anazina said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Damian Hinds gets worse.

    1) He's a Papist

    2) He went to Oxford

    3) He read PPE

    Hello - what's wrong with your number (1)? Substitute some other religion, preferably using a vaguely derogatory term, if that helps.
    Some Catholics only have a loyalty to the Pope/Rome and not the UK.

    Cf - Jacob Rees-Mogg

    http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/02/04/tory-mp-rees-mogg-i-take-my-whip-from-the-roman-catholic-church/
    I appear to have been transported back to the seventeenth century.

    Catholics are not loyal to the UK - Okaaay. We'd better have the vote removed then. Maybe expulsion is in order.

    Honestly: if someone said that of Muslims you'd be - rightly - all over them. When some attack Jews for being part of some global Jewish conspiracy with no loyalty to the nation where they live you attack them for channelling classic anti-semitic tropes.

    But when one MP explains his views on religious issues you extrapolate that to Catholics - only some mind (though on what basis it's not clear). Perhaps Catholics should be forced to sign up to some form of loyalty test. I believe someone in UKIP suggested something similar a while back.

    Pfft.....
    It is a joke.

    Someone on here said they had qualms about a Muslim Mayor of London but had no qualms about JRM as PM.

    We've had some shameful anti-Catholic laws in this country, some only repealed quite recently
    Yes, most of them involved the monarchy – a bastion of reactionary thinking that has long past its sell-by date.
    The whole point of the monarchy's Catholic ban was to stop it becoming a bastion of reactionary thinking. Catholic monarchs tended to believe in divine right of Kings etc. Given the UK became a constitutional democracy without any revolutions subsequent to the ban, it looks like a good decision.
    Your post would be on a sounder intellectual footing were it not for the fact that QEII remains in post because she believes has a duty to reign conferred on her by God.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 10,735

    HYUFD said:

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Honestly, how could May have survived so long in politics and been so utterly rubbish at it?

    How?

    She's rubbish at politics, okay at administration.
    And by administration you mean what, exactly? Because she appears to be utterly useless at developing and managing a team. Is she fantastically good at filing? Is that it?
    In terms of doing Brexit and economic management, she's okay. Not great, but okay.
    Again, you are suffering from delusions of mediocrity. She is bloody awful on the first point, and largely uninvolved on the latter one.
    You only say that because she is taking us out of Europe against your wishes, but in accordance with tbe result of a democratic vote
    No. I say that because she has proved utterly hopeless at finding a way forward that commands broad support across the country. Tin-eared, stubborn and unable to find compromise, three personal traits that should rule one out of leading a whelk stall, let alone a country.
    But your broad support is to retain free movement and effectively stay tied to the EU. That will not happen
    Given that a majority think that Brexit was the wrong decision, why do you say that? Any attempt to force through a hard Brexit will just galvanise and broaden support for abandoning the whole thing.
    They don't, the last yougov had Leave ahead by 9%
    Right: 42%
    Wrong: 45%
    (Dec 19-20)

    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/krjo4jgddj/YG Trackers - EU Tracker Questions_W.pdf
    You gov 04/01/18

    Right 43%
    Wrong 45%

    But 52% want to Brexit
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 3,770
    dr_spyn said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Honestly, how could May have survived so long in politics and been so utterly rubbish at it?

    How?

    Perhaps by keeping her head down and looking busy? Personally, I suspect that she is more of a foot-soldier than a General. She simply does not seem to be up to the job of developing policy and strategy.

    Like Gordon Brown, she appears to be a living embodiment of the Peter Principle.
    Just an observation that Cameron, Osborne, Leadsom, Johnson, Grove all failed to keep her from no 10.
    And they would probably have been as bad a PM as she is. Cameron's stunning grip of politics is what got us into the current Brexit mess, Osbourne decided to remain a loyal supporter of Cameron, Leadsom bottled, Gove turned on Boris and Boris was totally unsuited for the post.

    May won by default, not by force of argument or popular vote.
  • Elliot said:

    Anazina said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Damian Hinds gets worse.

    1) He's a Papist

    2) He went to Oxford

    3) He read PPE

    Hello - what's wrong with your number (1)? Substitute some other religion, preferably using a vaguely derogatory term, if that helps.
    Some Catholics only have a loyalty to the Pope/Rome and not the UK.

    Cf - Jacob Rees-Mogg

    http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/02/04/tory-mp-rees-mogg-i-take-my-whip-from-the-roman-catholic-church/
    I appear to have been transported back to the seventeenth century.

    Catholics are not loyal to the UK - Okaaay. We'd better have the vote removed then. Maybe expulsion is in order.

    Honestly: if someone said that of Muslims you'd be - rightly - all over them. When some attack Jews for being part of some global Jewish conspiracy with no loyalty to the nation where they live you attack them for channelling classic anti-semitic tropes.

    But when one MP explains his views on religious issues you extrapolate that to Catholics - only some mind (though on what basis it's not clear). Perhaps Catholics should be forced to sign up to some form of loyalty test. I believe someone in UKIP suggested something similar a while back.

    Pfft.....
    It is a joke.

    Someone on here said they had qualms about a Muslim Mayor of London but had no qualms about JRM as PM.

    We've had some shameful anti-Catholic laws in this country, some only repealed quite recently
    Yes, most of them involved the monarchy – a bastion of reactionary thinking that has long past its sell-by date.
    The whole point of the monarchy's Catholic ban was to stop it becoming a bastion of reactionary thinking. Catholic monarchs tended to believe in divine right of Kings etc. Given the UK became a constitutional democracy without any revolutions subsequent to the ban, it looks like a good decision.
    Has Morris Dancer been giving you history lessons?

    Divine right of Kings in this country was most famously espoused by a Protestant King.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 270
    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Honestly, how could May have survived so long in politics and been so utterly rubbish at it?

    How?

    She's rubbish at politics, okay at administration.
    And by administration you mean what, exactly? Because she appears to be utterly useless at developing and managing a team. Is she fantastically good at filing? Is that it?
    In terms of doing Brexit and economic management, she's okay. Not great, but okay.
    Again, you are suffering from delusions of mediocrity. She is bloody awful on the first point, and largely uninvolved on the latter one.
    You only say that because she is taking us out of Europe against your wishes, but in accordance with tbe result of a democratic vote
    No. I say that because she has proved utterly hopeless at finding a way forward that commands broad support across the country. Tin-eared, stubborn and unable to find compromise, three personal traits that should rule one out of leading a whelk stall, let alone a country.
    Just so I can understand the official talking points of the day properly, how does this square with the Remainer line last month that Theresa May had done a great soft Brexit deal and the Leavers were mugs for fooling for it?
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 293
    WilliamGlenn

    Indeed, and the inconvenient truth for neobrexiteers like HYUFD is that Wrong has led solidly now for several months.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 3,114
    Still no reference to the Leader of the House...
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 3,770
    Cyclefree said:

    I know. But how then does one signal one's utter contempt for the dismal fare on offer? It's not as if the bastards come round canvassing and listen to your views. So how the hell do you get across that having the choice between two malevolent and incompetent ideologies and a party that gives the impression of a corpse is not any sort of choice in a mature democracy?

    Welcome to my world :D

    I had to force myself to vote at the last GE. Once in the booth I had to stop myself spoiling the ballot. Part of my post-Brexit conversion from a mild BOO-er to a convinced Europhile was the distinct lack of homegrown political talent. Brussels is no prize, but Westminster makes it look competent.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 10,735
    Anazina said:

    This reshuffle has got to be one of the most pointless reshuffles ever. Long term, it’s likely caused more trouble for May, with Greening’s departure.

    And in a day where TMay promoted Badenoch and Cleverly (probably hoping to get good headlines from it as well) Sam Coates tweeted this lol:

    I think it IS the worst reshuffle ever isn't it? No-one has been reshuffled have they, surely that is the key criteria of a reshuffle? One SoC has quit of her own accord while another has left due to ill health. The fact that the government have been trailing it for weeks just makes the whole fiasco even more embarrassing.

    Predictable but time will tell - the only criticism I would have is the sacking of Greening but including Social care in health and Housing in the DCLG are very good moves that will bear fruit
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 28,045
    Anazina said:

    WilliamGlenn

    Indeed, and the inconvenient truth for neobrexiteers like HYUFD is that Wrong has led solidly now for several months.

    And what's the figure for therefore wanting to overturn matters? Because if it is not a majority, then the other figure is irrelevant.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 12,280
    Anazina said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anazina said:

    HYUFD

    Again, you can't infer that from the vote, the ballot paper said leave the EU, nothing more. And we have already had this conversation. Once again you are projecting your own contentions and presenting them as fact.

    This obsession with forcing restrictions on free movement on places that haven't asked for them is preventing sensible solutions from being found. Why not use regional visas in London as Canada does in some provinces? What is wrong with that idea exactly? Difficult times require imaginative thinking, not stubbornness.

    It genuinely is an obsession – this stopping the foreigners coming in – both of brexiteers and neobrexiteers like yourself who suffer from the zeal of the convert.

    80% voted for end free movement parties in June as Corbyn also backs ending it. Though much of the blame lies with Blair for failing to impose transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries in 2004
    A red herring given that said controls would have long expired by now anyway. Most people were relatively sanguine about the situation until Farage went for broke and fronted up a poster showing swarthy figures in queues at the border, composed in a similar style to that used by the Nazis.
    That vile poster was unveilled on the 16th of June 2016.
    That vile poster was criticised by Leavers and supporters of all parties on the 16th of June 2016.

    Prior to the 16th of June 2016 every single major pollster apart from Comres had Leave in the lead (BMG had Leave in the lead online but Remain in the lead on phone).
    Prior to the 16th of June 2016 ten out of the last twelve polls had Leave ahead.

    We didn't vote leave because of that poster.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,604
    Elliot said:

    Anazina said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Damian Hinds gets worse.

    1) He's a Papist

    2) He went to Oxford

    3) He read PPE

    Hello - what's wrong with your number (1)? Substitute some other religion, preferably using a vaguely derogatory term, if that helps.
    Some Catholics only have a loyalty to the Pope/Rome and not the UK.

    Cf - Jacob Rees-Mogg

    http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/02/04/tory-mp-rees-mogg-i-take-my-whip-from-the-roman-catholic-church/
    I appear to have been transported back to the seventeenth century.

    Catholics are not loyal to the UK - Okaaay. We'd better have the vote removed then. Maybe expulsion is in order.

    Honestly: if someone said that of Muslims you'd be - rightly - all over them. When some attack Jews for being part of some global Jewish conspiracy with no loyalty to the nation where they live you attack them for channelling classic anti-semitic tropes.

    But when one MP explains his views on religious issues you extrapolate that to Catholics - only some mind (though on what basis it's not clear). Perhaps Catholics should be forced to sign up to some form of loyalty test. I believe someone in UKIP suggested something similar a while back.

    Pfft.....
    It is a joke.

    Someone on here said they had qualms about a Muslim Mayor of London but had no qualms about JRM as PM.

    We've had some shameful anti-Catholic laws in this country, some only repealed quite recently
    Yes, most of them involved the monarchy – a bastion of reactionary thinking that has long past its sell-by date.
    The whole point of the monarchy's Catholic ban was to stop it becoming a bastion of reactionary thinking. Catholic monarchs tended to believe in divine right of Kings etc. Given the UK became a constitutional democracy without any revolutions subsequent to the ban, it looks like a good decision.
    At the time, yes. Now, it's largely down to the fact the Monarch has to act as head of the Church of England, and it's impossible to do that as a Catholic.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 28,045
    edited January 8

    Elliot said:

    Anazina said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Damian Hinds gets worse.

    1) He's a Papist

    2) He went to Oxford

    3) He read PPE

    Hello - what's wrong with your number (1)? Substitute some other religion, preferably using a vaguely derogatory term, if that helps.
    Some Catholics only have a loyalty to the Pope/Rome and not the UK.

    Cf - Jacob Rees-Mogg

    http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/02/04/tory-mp-rees-mogg-i-take-my-whip-from-the-roman-catholic-church/
    I appear to have been transported back to the seventeenth century.

    Catholics are not loyal to the UK - Okaaay. We'd better have the vote removed then. Maybe expulsion is in order.

    Honestly: if someone said that of Muslims you'd be - rightly - all over them. When some attack Jews for being part of some global Jewish conspiracy with no loyalty to the nation where they live you attack them for channelling classic anti-semitic tropes.

    But when one MP explains his views on religious issues you extrapolate that to Catholics - only some mind (though on what basis it's not clear). Perhaps Catholics should be forced to sign up to some form of loyalty test. I believe someone in UKIP suggested something similar a while back.

    Pfft.....
    It is a joke.

    Someone on here said they had qualms about a Muslim Mayor of London but had no qualms about JRM as PM.

    We've had some shameful anti-Catholic laws in this country, some only repealed quite recently
    Yes, most of them involved the monarchy – a bastion of reactionary thinking that has long past its sell-by date.
    The whole point of the monarchy's Catholic ban was to stop it becoming a bastion of reactionary thinking. Catholic monarchs tended to believe in divine right of Kings etc. Given the UK became a constitutional democracy without any revolutions subsequent to the ban, it looks like a good decision.
    Has Morris Dancer been giving you history lessons?

    Divine right of Kings in this country was most famously espoused by a Protestant King.
    Yeah, but his wife was a Catholic, same diff.

    Besides, High Church Angicanism is pretty much Catholic, right? (so some thought anyway)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 28,045
    I don't believe either of his first two remarks.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,604

    Cyclefree said:

    I know. But how then does one signal one's utter contempt for the dismal fare on offer? It's not as if the bastards come round canvassing and listen to your views. So how the hell do you get across that having the choice between two malevolent and incompetent ideologies and a party that gives the impression of a corpse is not any sort of choice in a mature democracy?

    Welcome to my world :D

    I had to force myself to vote at the last GE. Once in the booth I had to stop myself spoiling the ballot. Part of my post-Brexit conversion from a mild BOO-er to a convinced Europhile was the distinct lack of homegrown political talent. Brussels is no prize, but Westminster makes it look competent.
    I had absolutely no idea you were ever near a BOO-er position?

    I do know you and I used to agree quite a lot, and then something changed, but I'm at a loss as to work out how, when and why.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 3,114

    Elliot said:

    Anazina said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Damian Hinds gets worse.

    1) He's a Papist

    2) He went to Oxford

    3) He read PPE

    Hello - what's wrong with your number (1)? Substitute some other religion, preferably using a vaguely derogatory term, if that helps.
    Some Catholics only have a loyalty to the Pope/Rome and not the UK.

    Cf - Jacob Rees-Mogg

    http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/02/04/tory-mp-rees-mogg-i-take-my-whip-from-the-roman-catholic-church/
    I appear to have been transported back to the seventeenth century.

    Catholics are not loyal to the UK - Okaaay. We'd better have the vote removed then. Maybe expulsion is in order.

    Honestly: if someone said that of Muslims you'd be - rightly - all over them. When some attack Jews for being part of some global Jewish conspiracy with no loyalty to the nation where they live you attack them for channelling classic anti-semitic tropes.

    But when one MP explains his views on religious issues you extrapolate that to Catholics - only some mind (though on what basis it's not clear). Perhaps Catholics should be forced to sign up to some form of loyalty test. I believe someone in UKIP suggested something similar a while back.

    Pfft.....
    It is a joke.

    Someone on here said they had qualms about a Muslim Mayor of London but had no qualms about JRM as PM.

    We've had some shameful anti-Catholic laws in this country, some only repealed quite recently
    Yes, most of them involved the monarchy – a bastion of reactionary thinking that has long past its sell-by date.
    The whole point of the monarchy's Catholic ban was to stop it becoming a bastion of reactionary thinking. Catholic monarchs tended to believe in divine right of Kings etc. Given the UK became a constitutional democracy without any revolutions subsequent to the ban, it looks like a good decision.
    Has Morris Dancer been giving you history lessons?

    Divine right of Kings in this country was most famously espoused by a Protestant King.
    Charles I - his mother was probably a Catholic, his wife certainly was and his son converted to RC later in life. He really wasn't that Protestant!
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 293
    kle4 said:

    Anazina said:

    WilliamGlenn

    Indeed, and the inconvenient truth for neobrexiteers like HYUFD is that Wrong has led solidly now for several months.

    And what's the figure for therefore wanting to overturn matters? Because if it is not a majority, then the other figure is irrelevant.
    Interestingly those who think Brexit will make us better off and those who think worse off is almost at crossover. Once that metric flips things could get interesting.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 19,519

    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Damian Hinds gets worse.

    1) He's a Papist

    2) He went to Oxford

    3) He read PPE

    Hello - what's wrong with your number (1)? Substitute some other religion, preferably using a vaguely derogatory term, if that helps.
    He believes in Sky Fairy Magic and not science and evidence ... and we're making him responsible for Education?

    .
    Umm, you're only allowed to be in charge of Education if you are an atheist?!

    I am an atheist and that seems...an extreme view.
    Atheist, agnostic or religious in name only.

    If you actually *believe* in your religion, especially if to the extent that you'll let that influence your votes, then yes I would be cynical about you being in charge.
    You'd have to exclude Sir Robert Peel, William Gladstone, Lord Salisbury, Harold Macmillan, Margaret Thatcher, if you want to get rid of the religious from positions of power.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 293

    Anazina said:

    This reshuffle has got to be one of the most pointless reshuffles ever. Long term, it’s likely caused more trouble for May, with Greening’s departure.

    And in a day where TMay promoted Badenoch and Cleverly (probably hoping to get good headlines from it as well) Sam Coates tweeted this lol:

    I think it IS the worst reshuffle ever isn't it? No-one has been reshuffled have they, surely that is the key criteria of a reshuffle? One SoC has quit of her own accord while another has left due to ill health. The fact that the government have been trailing it for weeks just makes the whole fiasco even more embarrassing.

    Predictable but time will tell - the only criticism I would have is the sacking of Greening but including Social care in health and Housing in the DCLG are very good moves that will bear fruit
    In all fairness you are such a loyalist that May could have promoted Mr Blobby to Pensions Secretary and you would have spun it as a triumph for diversity.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 5,973

    Cyclefree said:

    I know. But how then does one signal one's utter contempt for the dismal fare on offer? It's not as if the bastards come round canvassing and listen to your views. So how the hell do you get across that having the choice between two malevolent and incompetent ideologies and a party that gives the impression of a corpse is not any sort of choice in a mature democracy?

    Welcome to my world :D

    I had to force myself to vote at the last GE. Once in the booth I had to stop myself spoiling the ballot. Part of my post-Brexit conversion from a mild BOO-er to a convinced Europhile was the distinct lack of homegrown political talent. Brussels is no prize, but Westminster makes it look competent.
    As it stands, I shall have to, for the first time in my life, trudge up to the polling station and spoil my ballot paper. Very sad thought.
  • Still no reference to the Leader of the House...

    Andrea Leadsom has been re-appointed to that role.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 293
    kle4 said:

    Anazina said:

    This reshuffle has got to be one of the most pointless reshuffles ever. Long term, it’s likely caused more trouble for May, with Greening’s departure.

    And in a day where TMay promoted Badenoch and Cleverly (probably hoping to get good headlines from it as well) Sam Coates tweeted this lol:

    The fact that the government have been trailing it for weeks just makes the whole fiasco even more embarrassing.

    That, at least, is true - having bigged it up so much, one would reasonably have assumed bigger moves were afoot.
    That was probably the plan, but everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face. The question is, who delivered the punch? Grayling, Hunt, someone else, several people?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 28,045

    Elliot said:

    Anazina said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Damian Hinds gets worse.

    1) He's a Papist

    2) He went to Oxford

    3) He read PPE

    Hello - what's wrong with your number (1)? Substitute some other religion, preferably using a vaguely derogatory term, if that helps.
    Some Catholics only have a loyalty to the Pope/Rome and not the UK.

    Cf - Jacob Rees-Mogg

    http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/02/04/tory-mp-rees-mogg-i-take-my-whip-from-the-roman-catholic-church/
    I appear to have been transported back to the seventeenth century.

    Catholics are not loyal to the UK - Okaaay. We'd better have the vote removed then. Maybe expulsion is in order.

    Honestly: if someone said that of Muslims you'd be - rightly - all over them. When some attack Jews for being part of some global Jewish conspiracy with no loyalty to the nation where they live you attack them for channelling classic anti-semitic tropes.

    But when one MP explains his views on religious issues you extrapolate that to Catholics - only some mind (though on what basis it's not clear). Perhaps Catholics should be forced to sign up to some form of loyalty test. I believe someone in UKIP suggested something similar a while back.

    Pfft.....
    It is a joke.

    Someone on here said they had qualms about a Muslim Mayor of London but had no qualms about JRM as PM.

    We've had some shameful anti-Catholic laws in this country, some only repealed quite recently
    Yes, most of them involved the monarchy – a bastion of reactionary thinking that has long past its sell-by date.
    The whole point of the monarchy's Catholic ban was to stop it becoming a bastion of reactionary thinking. Catholic monarchs tended to believe in divine right of Kings etc. Given the UK became a constitutional democracy without any revolutions subsequent to the ban, it looks like a good decision.
    Has Morris Dancer been giving you history lessons?

    Divine right of Kings in this country was most famously espoused by a Protestant King.
    Charles I - his mother was probably a Catholic, his wife certainly was and his son converted to RC later in life. He really wasn't that Protestant!
    Not being a religious scholar, the impression I got from the period is nobody really had a clear idea on what the limits of Protestantism were, or otherwise what constituted acceptable diversity in thinking - even among the victors there were some huge differences in opinions on Quakers for instance.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 17,291
    edited January 8
    Anazina said:

    This reshuffle has got to be one of the most pointless reshuffles ever. Long term, it’s likely caused more trouble for May, with Greening’s departure.

    And in a day where TMay promoted Badenoch and Cleverly (probably hoping to get good headlines from it as well) Sam Coates tweeted this lol:

    I think it IS the worst reshuffle ever isn't it? No-one has been reshuffled have they, surely that is the key criteria of a reshuffle? One SoC has quit of her own accord while another has left due to ill health. The fact that the government have been trailing it for weeks just makes the whole fiasco even more embarrassing.

    The worst reshuffle ever? Are you completely mad? Have you forgotten Blair's reshuffles?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,604
    On topic, May has survived several farces like this over the past 18 months.

    She'll survive this one as well. It won't be the last.

    The biggest fallout from it is having another potential big rebel or two on the backbenches. But, I think she's promoted some decent talent - Hinds, McVey and Hancock - Hunt will be constructive with social care in his brief, and she's greatly strengthened the administrative leadership of the Conservative Party (although I'd have done that last, not first).

    I doubt she'll do another reshuffle until Brexit is safely out of the way, now.
  • Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    This reshuffle has got to be one of the most pointless reshuffles ever. Long term, it’s likely caused more trouble for May, with Greening’s departure.

    And in a day where TMay promoted Badenoch and Cleverly (probably hoping to get good headlines from it as well) Sam Coates tweeted this lol:

    I think it IS the worst reshuffle ever isn't it? No-one has been reshuffled have they, surely that is the key criteria of a reshuffle? One SoC has quit of her own accord while another has left due to ill health. The fact that the government have been trailing it for weeks just makes the whole fiasco even more embarrassing.

    Predictable but time will tell - the only criticism I would have is the sacking of Greening but including Social care in health and Housing in the DCLG are very good moves that will bear fruit
    In all fairness you are such a loyalist that May could have promoted Mr Blobby to Pensions Secretary and you would have spun it as a triumph for diversity.
    Mr Blobby refused to be moved from Culture...
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 10,735
    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    This reshuffle has got to be one of the most pointless reshuffles ever. Long term, it’s likely caused more trouble for May, with Greening’s departure.

    And in a day where TMay promoted Badenoch and Cleverly (probably hoping to get good headlines from it as well) Sam Coates tweeted this lol:

    I think it IS the worst reshuffle ever isn't it? No-one has been reshuffled have they, surely that is the key criteria of a reshuffle? One SoC has quit of her own accord while another has left due to ill health. The fact that the government have been trailing it for weeks just makes the whole fiasco even more embarrassing.

    Predictable but time will tell - the only criticism I would have is the sacking of Greening but including Social care in health and Housing in the DCLG are very good moves that will bear fruit
    In all fairness you are such a loyalist that May could have promoted Mr Blobby to Pensions Secretary and you would have spun it as a triumph for diversity.
    Now don't be silly
  • RobDRobD Posts: 30,947

    Anazina said:

    This reshuffle has got to be one of the most pointless reshuffles ever. Long term, it’s likely caused more trouble for May, with Greening’s departure.

    And in a day where TMay promoted Badenoch and Cleverly (probably hoping to get good headlines from it as well) Sam Coates tweeted this lol:

    I think it IS the worst reshuffle ever isn't it? No-one has been reshuffled have they, surely that is the key criteria of a reshuffle? One SoC has quit of her own accord while another has left due to ill health. The fact that the government have been trailing it for weeks just makes the whole fiasco even more embarrassing.

    Are you completely mad? Have you forgotten Blair's reshuffles?
    Like the one when he tried to abolish Lord Chancellor?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 8,152
    edited January 8
    One post from me today. Just one.

    I am fucking furious. We've lost somebody who had calmed things down and seemed to be giving us breathing space and got some talentless meddlesome nonentity who was trained by the notorious Osborne in her place.

    Theresa May has clearly felt her back against the wall and decided to turn round and fight. I hope she has hurt her knuckles.

    Good for Greening for going to the backbenches.

    This is not going to end well.

    (PS @Sean_F @Cyclefree I wouldn't worry too much about the good Mr Thompson. Like most religious zealots, for example Dawkins, he seeks to impose his views on others and because he is utterly convinced of their own rightness he doesn't realise that his fanaticism based on some slightly strange reasoning comes across as rather odd to the rest of us. Such people are probably best ignored.)
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 2,126
    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    This reshuffle has got to be one of the most pointless reshuffles ever. Long term, it’s likely caused more trouble for May, with Greening’s departure.

    And in a day where TMay promoted Badenoch and Cleverly (probably hoping to get good headlines from it as well) Sam Coates tweeted this lol:

    I think it IS the worst reshuffle ever isn't it? No-one has been reshuffled have they, surely that is the key criteria of a reshuffle? One SoC has quit of her own accord while another has left due to ill health. The fact that the government have been trailing it for weeks just makes the whole fiasco even more embarrassing.

    Predictable but time will tell - the only criticism I would have is the sacking of Greening but including Social care in health and Housing in the DCLG are very good moves that will bear fruit
    In all fairness you are such a loyalist that May could have promoted Mr Blobby to Pensions Secretary and you would have spun it as a triumph for diversity.
    I find Big_G's unshakable loyalty to TMay rather endearing tbh. Misguided of course, but endearing nonetheless.
  • hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,358

    Anazina said:

    This reshuffle has got to be one of the most pointless reshuffles ever. Long term, it’s likely caused more trouble for May, with Greening’s departure.

    And in a day where TMay promoted Badenoch and Cleverly (probably hoping to get good headlines from it as well) Sam Coates tweeted this lol:

    I think it IS the worst reshuffle ever isn't it? No-one has been reshuffled have they, surely that is the key criteria of a reshuffle? One SoC has quit of her own accord while another has left due to ill health. The fact that the government have been trailing it for weeks just makes the whole fiasco even more embarrassing.

    Are you completely mad? Have you forgotten Blair's reshuffles?
    Now my MP is the minister for immigration, with the right to attend cabinet............and working under the worst MP of the lot, one Amber Augusta Rudd - yuck!
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 293

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    This reshuffle has got to be one of the most pointless reshuffles ever. Long term, it’s likely caused more trouble for May, with Greening’s departure.

    And in a day where TMay promoted Badenoch and Cleverly (probably hoping to get good headlines from it as well) Sam Coates tweeted this lol:

    I think it IS the worst reshuffle ever isn't it? No-one has been reshuffled have they, surely that is the key criteria of a reshuffle? One SoC has quit of her own accord while another has left due to ill health. The fact that the government have been trailing it for weeks just makes the whole fiasco even more embarrassing.

    Predictable but time will tell - the only criticism I would have is the sacking of Greening but including Social care in health and Housing in the DCLG are very good moves that will bear fruit
    In all fairness you are such a loyalist that May could have promoted Mr Blobby to Pensions Secretary and you would have spun it as a triumph for diversity.
    I find Big_G's unshakable loyalty to TMay rather endearing tbh. Misguided of course, but endearing nonetheless.
    Yes, it doesn't bother me, I'm just making a point.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 3,114

    Still no reference to the Leader of the House...

    Andrea Leadsom has been re-appointed to that role.
    Oh right, I hadn't seen any confirmation of that (or of Liz Truss)
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 19,519

    Cyclefree said:

    I know. But how then does one signal one's utter contempt for the dismal fare on offer? It's not as if the bastards come round canvassing and listen to your views. So how the hell do you get across that having the choice between two malevolent and incompetent ideologies and a party that gives the impression of a corpse is not any sort of choice in a mature democracy?

    Welcome to my world :D

    I had to force myself to vote at the last GE. Once in the booth I had to stop myself spoiling the ballot. Part of my post-Brexit conversion from a mild BOO-er to a convinced Europhile was the distinct lack of homegrown political talent. Brussels is no prize, but Westminster makes it look competent.
    I don't know what the problem is. Like most of us, you'll remain well off, in a liberal democratic country.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,555
    edited January 8

    HYUFD said:

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Honestly, how could May have survived so long in politics and been so utterly rubbish at it?

    How?

    She's rubbish at politics, okay at administration.
    And by administration you mean what, exactly? Because she appears to be utterly useless at developing and managing a team. Is she fantastically good at filing? Is that it?
    In terms of doing Brexit and economic management, she's okay. Not great, but okay.
    Again, you are suffering from delusions of mediocrity. She is bloody awful on the first point, and largely uninvolved on the latter one.
    You only say that because she is taking us out of Europe against your wishes, but in accordance with tbe result of a democratic vote
    No. I say that because she has proved utterly hopeless at finding a way forward that commands broad support across the country. Tin-eared, stubborn and unable to find compromise, three personal traits that should rule one out of leading a whelk stall, let alone a country.
    But your broad support is to retain free movement and effectively stay tied to the EU. That will not happen
    Given that a majority think that Brexit was the wrong decision, why do you say that? Any attempt to force through a hard Brexit will just galvanise and broaden support for abandoning the whole thing.
    They don't, the last yougov had Leave ahead by 9%
    Right: 42%
    Wrong: 45%
    (Dec 19-20)

    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/krjo4jgddj/YG Trackers - EU Tracker Questions_W.pdf
    Yougov

    Leave 48%
    Remain 39%
    (December 13th-19th 2017)
    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/xnnrrb0gi9/Eurotrack_December.pdf
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 12,280
    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Damian Hinds gets worse.

    1) He's a Papist

    2) He went to Oxford

    3) He read PPE

    Hello - what's wrong with your number (1)? Substitute some other religion, preferably using a vaguely derogatory term, if that helps.
    He believes in Sky Fairy Magic and not science and evidence ... and we're making him responsible for Education?

    .
    Umm, you're only allowed to be in charge of Education if you are an atheist?!

    I am an atheist and that seems...an extreme view.
    Atheist, agnostic or religious in name only.

    If you actually *believe* in your religion, especially if to the extent that you'll let that influence your votes, then yes I would be cynical about you being in charge.
    You'd have to exclude Sir Robert Peel, William Gladstone, Lord Salisbury, Harold Macmillan, Margaret Thatcher, if you want to get rid of the religious from positions of power.
    None of those are from the 21st century, all of them bar Thatcher are before I was born let alone before my time. I can't recall Thatcher ever letting religion trump science, in fact as far as I recall she was rather famously a scientist herself and willing to challenge shibboleths.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 341

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    This reshuffle has got to be one of the most pointless reshuffles ever. Long term, it’s likely caused more trouble for May, with Greening’s departure.

    And in a day where TMay promoted Badenoch and Cleverly (probably hoping to get good headlines from it as well) Sam Coates tweeted this lol:

    I think it IS the worst reshuffle ever isn't it? No-one has been reshuffled have they, surely that is the key criteria of a reshuffle? One SoC has quit of her own accord while another has left due to ill health. The fact that the government have been trailing it for weeks just makes the whole fiasco even more embarrassing.

    Predictable but time will tell - the only criticism I would have is the sacking of Greening but including Social care in health and Housing in the DCLG are very good moves that will bear fruit
    In all fairness you are such a loyalist that May could have promoted Mr Blobby to Pensions Secretary and you would have spun it as a triumph for diversity.
    I find Big_G's unshakable loyalty to TMay rather endearing tbh. Misguided of course, but endearing nonetheless.
    Until he is loyal to the next leader. PB Tories are more like Marxists than they like :)
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,116

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Damian Hinds gets worse.

    1) He's a Papist

    2) He went to Oxford

    3) He read PPE

    Hello - what's wrong with your number (1)? Substitute some other religion, preferably using a vaguely derogatory term, if that helps.
    He believes in Sky Fairy Magic and not science and evidence ... and we're making him responsible for Education?

    Feel free to switch that with some other religion if you wish.
    You're making a wholly unsubstantiated assumption that if you are religious you do not believe in science or evidence. Try telling that to all the doctors and scientists and teachers and lawyers and judges who are practising Jews or Muslims or Christians or Hindus or Sikhs or Quakers.

    Not everyone who is religious is some sort of creationist.
    But you'd take issue with 'some sort of creationist'? So you do draw a line somewhere?
    I take issue with people who do not follow the advice of experts in their field e.g. scientists. So if someone wanted to set up a school which sought to teach Genesis as science I would not permit that because Genesis is not science and children ought to be taught science by people who are expert in it. Religion, to me, is about morality - about how one treats other people ("do as you would be done by" etc). It is not a science and when dealing with scientific matters I would no more listen to a priest or imam or rabbi than I would listen to an economist if I had a lump in my breast.

    I have never felt a conflict between religion and science, partly because there are quite a lot of scientists and teachers in my own family and partly because the Catholic nuns in my primary school were so determined on teaching us as well as possible that I arrived at my secular secondary school a year ahead of the other girls in maths and science. Still, I realise that this is an anecdote and not scientific proof of anything, other than perhaps that my family was unusual and I was fortunate in my education.

    Similarly, I would not permit taxpayers' money spent on the NHS to be spent on homeopathy which is, again, bad science. I wonder whether all the people who use homeopathy or promote it are religious or atheists or whether this is irrelevant.

    But I think that expertise is valuable and not something to be shunned or sneered at. I wish we had more respect for people who value education and learning and expertise, whatever field that expertise is in.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 293

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    This reshuffle has got to be one of the most pointless reshuffles ever. Long term, it’s likely caused more trouble for May, with Greening’s departure.

    And in a day where TMay promoted Badenoch and Cleverly (probably hoping to get good headlines from it as well) Sam Coates tweeted this lol:

    I think it IS the worst reshuffle ever isn't it? No-one has been reshuffled have they, surely that is the key criteria of a reshuffle? One SoC has quit of her own accord while another has left due to ill health. The fact that the government have been trailing it for weeks just makes the whole fiasco even more embarrassing.

    Predictable but time will tell - the only criticism I would have is the sacking of Greening but including Social care in health and Housing in the DCLG are very good moves that will bear fruit
    In all fairness you are such a loyalist that May could have promoted Mr Blobby to Pensions Secretary and you would have spun it as a triumph for diversity.
    Mr Blobby refused to be moved from Culture...
    He was being tipped for the Foreign Secretary job but they had to wheel out a senior civil servant to let him down gently

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 10,735

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    This reshuffle has got to be one of the most pointless reshuffles ever. Long term, it’s likely caused more trouble for May, with Greening’s departure.

    And in a day where TMay promoted Badenoch and Cleverly (probably hoping to get good headlines from it as well) Sam Coates tweeted this lol:

    I think it IS the worst reshuffle ever isn't it? No-one has been reshuffled have they, surely that is the key criteria of a reshuffle? One SoC has quit of her own accord while another has left due to ill health. The fact that the government have been trailing it for weeks just makes the whole fiasco even more embarrassing.

    Predictable but time will tell - the only criticism I would have is the sacking of Greening but including Social care in health and Housing in the DCLG are very good moves that will bear fruit
    In all fairness you are such a loyalist that May could have promoted Mr Blobby to Pensions Secretary and you would have spun it as a triumph for diversity.
    I find Big_G's unshakable loyalty to TMay rather endearing tbh. Misguided of course, but endearing nonetheless.
    Thanks Ben - loyalty is a commendable attribute
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,555
    Anazina said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anazina said:

    HYUFD

    Again, you can't infer that from the vote, the ballot paper said leave the EU, nothing more. And we have already had this conversation. Once again you are projecting your own contentions and presenting them as fact.

    This obsession with forcing restrictions on free movement on places that haven't asked for them is preventing sensible solutions from being found. Why not use regional visas in London as Canada does in some provinces? What is wrong with that idea exactly? Difficult times require imaginative thinking, not stubbornness.

    It genuinely is an obsession – this stopping the foreigners coming in – both of brexiteers and neobrexiteers like yourself who suffer from the zeal of the convert.

    80% voted for end free movement parties in June as Corbyn also backs ending it. Though much of the blame lies with Blair for failing to impose transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries in 2004
    A red herring given that said controls would have long expired by now anyway. Most people were relatively sanguine about the situation until Farage went for broke and fronted up a poster showing swarthy figures in queues at the border, composed in a similar style to that used by the Nazis.
    Wrong. UKIP went from 3 MEPs in 1999 to 13 MEPs in 2009 because of Blair's failure to impose transition controls
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,132
    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I know. But how then does one signal one's utter contempt for the dismal fare on offer? It's not as if the bastards come round canvassing and listen to your views. So how the hell do you get across that having the choice between two malevolent and incompetent ideologies and a party that gives the impression of a corpse is not any sort of choice in a mature democracy?

    Welcome to my world :D

    I had to force myself to vote at the last GE. Once in the booth I had to stop myself spoiling the ballot. Part of my post-Brexit conversion from a mild BOO-er to a convinced Europhile was the distinct lack of homegrown political talent. Brussels is no prize, but Westminster makes it look competent.
    I don't know what the problem is. Like most of us, you'll remain well off, in a liberal democratic country.

    And more democratic #becauseBrexit

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 341
    ydoethur said:

    One post from me today. Just one.

    I am fucking furious. We've lost somebody who had calmed things down and seemed to be giving us breathing space and got some talentless meddlesome nonentity who was trained by the notorious Osborne in her place.

    Theresa May has clearly felt her back against the wall and decided to turn round and fight.

    Good for Greening for going to the backbenches.

    This is not going to end well.

    (PS @Sean_F @Cyclefree I wouldn't worry too much about the good Mr Thompson. Like most religious zealots, for example Dawkins, he seeks to impose his views on others and because he is utterly convinced of their own rightness he doesn't realise that his fanaticism based on some slightly strange reasoning comes across as rather odd to the rest of us. Such people are probably best ignored.)

    Greening was the first Education Minister to have gone to a bog standard Comprehensive, like 80% of the country.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 17,291
    Excellent news* that Esther McVey is back in a big job, even if it's not the exact big job I would have ideally chosen for her. Get your bets on now.

    * My betting position has of course no influence on my view on this point.
  • HYUFD said:
    Read what the pollster said about that poll.

    The final group of questions is “what do we do now” questions. No company asks a regular tracker along these lines, but there are several questions asked on this sort of basis. By stating with “at this point” the question in the YouGov poll this week tilts toward this sort of question, but there are other more explicit examples asking what people think should happen next – for example, YouGov have a semi-regular tracker that asks how the government should proceed with Brexit, which this month found 52% thought the government should go ahead with Brexit, 16% that they should call a second referendum, 15% that they should stop Brexit and remain in the EU.

    The reason for the difference in these questions is that a substantial minority of people who voted Remain in 2016 consistently say that the government should go ahead and implement Brexit (presumably because they see them as having a democratic duty to implement the referendum result).

    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/9962
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 4,238
    Anazina said:

    Elliot said:

    Anazina said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Damian Hinds gets worse.

    1) He's a Papist

    2) He went to Oxford

    3) He read PPE

    Hello - what's wrong with your number (1)? Substitute some other religion, preferably using a vaguely derogatory term, if that helps.
    Some Catholics only have a loyalty to the Pope/Rome and not the UK.

    Cf - Jacob Rees-Mogg

    http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/02/04/tory-mp-rees-mogg-i-take-my-whip-from-the-roman-catholic-church/
    I appear to have been transported back to the seventeenth century.

    Catholics are not loyal to the UK - Okaaay. We'd better have the vote removed then. Maybe expulsion is in order.

    Honestly: if someone said that of Muslims you'd be - rightly - all over them. When some attack Jews for being part of some global Jewish conspiracy with no loyalty to the nation where they live you attack them for channelling classic anti-semitic tropes.

    But when one MP explains his views on religious issues you extrapolate that to Catholics - only some mind (though on what basis it's not clear). Perhaps Catholics should be forced to sign up to some form of loyalty test. I believe someone in UKIP suggested something similar a while back.

    Pfft.....
    It is a joke.

    Someone on here said they had qualms about a Muslim Mayor of London but had no qualms about JRM as PM.

    We've had some shameful anti-Catholic laws in this country, some only repealed quite recently
    Yes, most of them involved the monarchy – a bastion of reactionary thinking that has long past its sell-by date.
    The whole point of the monarchy's Catholic ban was to stop it becoming a bastion of reactionary thinking. Catholic monarchs tended to believe in divine right of Kings etc. Given the UK became a constitutional democracy without any revolutions subsequent to the ban, it looks like a good decision.
    Your post would be on a sounder intellectual footing were it not for the fact that QEII remains in post because she believes has a duty to reign conferred on her by God.
    Yes, because a right arising by accident of birth and an obligation arising from having taken an oath are identical concepts. Definitely.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 293

    Anazina said:

    This reshuffle has got to be one of the most pointless reshuffles ever. Long term, it’s likely caused more trouble for May, with Greening’s departure.

    And in a day where TMay promoted Badenoch and Cleverly (probably hoping to get good headlines from it as well) Sam Coates tweeted this lol:

    I think it IS the worst reshuffle ever isn't it? No-one has been reshuffled have they, surely that is the key criteria of a reshuffle? One SoC has quit of her own accord while another has left due to ill health. The fact that the government have been trailing it for weeks just makes the whole fiasco even more embarrassing.

    The worst reshuffle ever? Are you completely mad? Have you forgotten Blair's reshuffles?

    Well yes there is that, but the point is that this fails on the key technical criteria that no-one has actually been reshuffled. It is the Reshuffle That Never Was.

    Granted, some of Blair's more indulgent efforts were more damaging to the country.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 19,519

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Damian Hinds gets worse.

    1) He's a Papist

    2) He went to Oxford

    3) He read PPE

    Hello - what's wrong with your number (1)? Substitute some other religion, preferably using a vaguely derogatory term, if that helps.
    He believes in Sky Fairy Magic and not science and evidence ... and we're making him responsible for Education?

    .
    Umm, you're only allowed to be in charge of Education if you are an atheist?!

    I am an atheist and that seems...an extreme view.
    Atheist, agnostic or religious in name only.

    If you actually *believe* in your religion, especially if to the extent that you'll let that influence your votes, then yes I would be cynical about you being in charge.
    You'd have to exclude Sir Robert Peel, William Gladstone, Lord Salisbury, Harold Macmillan, Margaret Thatcher, if you want to get rid of the religious from positions of power.
    None of those are from the 21st century, all of them bar Thatcher are before I was born let alone before my time. I can't recall Thatcher ever letting religion trump science, in fact as far as I recall she was rather famously a scientist herself and willing to challenge shibboleths.
    Margaret Thatcher rooted her political philosophy in her religious beliefs, hence her willingness to debate the leaders of the Church of England and Church of Scotland.
  • HYUFD said:

    Anazina said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anazina said:

    HYUFD

    Again, you can't infer that from the vote, the ballot paper said leave the EU, nothing more. And we have already had this conversation. Once again you are projecting your own contentions and presenting them as fact.

    This obsession with forcing restrictions on free movement on places that haven't asked for them is preventing sensible solutions from being found. Why not use regional visas in London as Canada does in some provinces? What is wrong with that idea exactly? Difficult times require imaginative thinking, not stubbornness.

    It genuinely is an obsession – this stopping the foreigners coming in – both of brexiteers and neobrexiteers like yourself who suffer from the zeal of the convert.

    80% voted for end free movement parties in June as Corbyn also backs ending it. Though much of the blame lies with Blair for failing to impose transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries in 2004
    A red herring given that said controls would have long expired by now anyway. Most people were relatively sanguine about the situation until Farage went for broke and fronted up a poster showing swarthy figures in queues at the border, composed in a similar style to that used by the Nazis.
    Wrong. UKIP went from 3 MEPs in 1999 to 13 MEPs in 2009 because of Blair's failure to impose transition controls
    Why did you miss out the 2004 elections which saw UKIP go from 3 to 12 MEPs?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,555

    HYUFD said:
    Read what the pollster said about that poll.

    The final group of questions is “what do we do now” questions. No company asks a regular tracker along these lines, but there are several questions asked on this sort of basis. By stating with “at this point” the question in the YouGov poll this week tilts toward this sort of question, but there are other more explicit examples asking what people think should happen next – for example, YouGov have a semi-regular tracker that asks how the government should proceed with Brexit, which this month found 52% thought the government should go ahead with Brexit, 16% that they should call a second referendum, 15% that they should stop Brexit and remain in the EU.

    The reason for the difference in these questions is that a substantial minority of people who voted Remain in 2016 consistently say that the government should go ahead and implement Brexit (presumably because they see them as having a democratic duty to implement the referendum result).

    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/9962
    So the clear majority back continuing with Brexit then
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 7,510
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    One post from me today. Just one.

    I am fucking furious. We've lost somebody who had calmed things down and seemed to be giving us breathing space and got some talentless meddlesome nonentity who was trained by the notorious Osborne in her place.

    Theresa May has clearly felt her back against the wall and decided to turn round and fight.

    Good for Greening for going to the backbenches.

    This is not going to end well.

    (PS @Sean_F @Cyclefree I wouldn't worry too much about the good Mr Thompson. Like most religious zealots, for example Dawkins, he seeks to impose his views on others and because he is utterly convinced of their own rightness he doesn't realise that his fanaticism based on some slightly strange reasoning comes across as rather odd to the rest of us. Such people are probably best ignored.)

    Greening was the first Education Minister to have gone to a bog standard Comprehensive, like 80% of the country.
    Those numbers show just how shite they are.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 3,770
    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I know. But how then does one signal one's utter contempt for the dismal fare on offer? It's not as if the bastards come round canvassing and listen to your views. So how the hell do you get across that having the choice between two malevolent and incompetent ideologies and a party that gives the impression of a corpse is not any sort of choice in a mature democracy?

    Welcome to my world :D

    I had to force myself to vote at the last GE. Once in the booth I had to stop myself spoiling the ballot. Part of my post-Brexit conversion from a mild BOO-er to a convinced Europhile was the distinct lack of homegrown political talent. Brussels is no prize, but Westminster makes it look competent.
    I don't know what the problem is. Like most of us, you'll remain well off, in a liberal democratic country.
    Which will be in decline because of a complete lack of leadership
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 308
    Calling it - and a free column idea to any Sunday journalists reading this:

    Theresa May has a woman problem.

    (So did Thatcher. So did Elizabeth I, my infinitely better read wife assures me.)

    Also, ydoethur is spot on as usual.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,555

    HYUFD said:

    Anazina said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anazina said:

    HYUFD

    Again, you can't infer that from the vote, the ballot paper said leave the EU, nothing more. And we have already had this conversation. Once again you are projecting your own contentions and presenting them as fact.

    This obsession with forcing restrictions on free movement on places that haven't asked for them is preventing sensible solutions from being found. Why not use regional visas in London as Canada does in some provinces? What is wrong with that idea exactly? Difficult times require imaginative thinking, not stubbornness.

    It genuinely is an obsession – this stopping the foreigners coming in – both of brexiteers and neobrexiteers like yourself who suffer from the zeal of the convert.

    80% voted for end free movement parties in June as Corbyn also backs ending it. Though much of the blame lies with Blair for failing to impose transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries in 2004
    A red herring given that said controls would have long expired by now anyway. Most people were relatively sanguine about the situation until Farage went for broke and fronted up a poster showing swarthy figures in queues at the border, composed in a similar style to that used by the Nazis.
    Wrong. UKIP went from 3 MEPs in 1999 to 13 MEPs in 2009 because of Blair's failure to impose transition controls
    Why did you miss out the 2004 elections which saw UKIP go from 3 to 12 MEPs?
    As last time I checked 13 was bigger than 12 but yes you could equally apply the 2004 elections as they were held in June 2004 and the new accession countries joined in May 2004
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 293
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Damian Hinds gets worse.

    1) He's a Papist

    2) He went to Oxford

    3) He read PPE

    Hello - what's wrong with your number (1)? Substitute some other religion, preferably using a vaguely derogatory term, if that helps.
    He believes in Sky Fairy Magic and not science and evidence ... and we're making him responsible for Education?

    Feel free to switch that with some other religion if you wish.
    You're making a wholly unsubstantiated assumption that if you are religious you do not believe in science or evidence. Try telling that to all the doctors and scientists and teachers and lawyers and judges who are practising Jews or Muslims or Christians or Hindus or Sikhs or Quakers.

    Not everyone who is religious is some sort of creationist.
    But you'd take issue with 'some sort of creationist'? So you do draw a line somewhere?
    SNIP

    Similarly, I would not permit taxpayers' money spent on the NHS to be spent on homeopathy which is, again, bad science. I wonder whether all the people who use homeopathy or promote it are religious or atheists or whether this is irrelevant.

    But I think that expertise is valuable and not something to be shunned or sneered at. I wish we had more respect for people who value education and learning and expertise, whatever field that expertise is in.
    Strangely enough I noticed that Kelvin Hopkins who recently got into hot water over sexual harassment claims was both a supporter of homeopathy in the NHS and a leading light in the National Secular Society or some such. It would appear that some atheists also hold bizarre superstitions – very expensive ones in the case of this particular example!
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 8,731

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I know. But how then does one signal one's utter contempt for the dismal fare on offer? It's not as if the bastards come round canvassing and listen to your views. So how the hell do you get across that having the choice between two malevolent and incompetent ideologies and a party that gives the impression of a corpse is not any sort of choice in a mature democracy?

    Welcome to my world :D

    I had to force myself to vote at the last GE. Once in the booth I had to stop myself spoiling the ballot. Part of my post-Brexit conversion from a mild BOO-er to a convinced Europhile was the distinct lack of homegrown political talent. Brussels is no prize, but Westminster makes it look competent.
    I don't know what the problem is. Like most of us, you'll remain well off, in a liberal democratic country.
    Which will be in decline because of a complete lack of leadership
    Yawn.

    Leaders don't make countries. People do.
  • I think Graham Brady's getting a letter soon.

  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 3,770

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I know. But how then does one signal one's utter contempt for the dismal fare on offer? It's not as if the bastards come round canvassing and listen to your views. So how the hell do you get across that having the choice between two malevolent and incompetent ideologies and a party that gives the impression of a corpse is not any sort of choice in a mature democracy?

    Welcome to my world :D

    I had to force myself to vote at the last GE. Once in the booth I had to stop myself spoiling the ballot. Part of my post-Brexit conversion from a mild BOO-er to a convinced Europhile was the distinct lack of homegrown political talent. Brussels is no prize, but Westminster makes it look competent.
    I don't know what the problem is. Like most of us, you'll remain well off, in a liberal democratic country.

    And more democratic #becauseBrexit

    ROFL.... Oh yes, I will have a choice between Eurosceptic swivel-eyed loons and Marxist Religion Disguised As Politics.

    Devil. Deep Blue Sea. Etc etc...
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,132
    Scott_P said:

    Why do ppl get so excited by these? He likely tried to retweet UKGov message but did the reply instead.

    And? So? Head for the bunkers?

    Life must be so empty for some.

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 2,126
    edited January 8

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    This reshuffle has got to be one of the most pointless reshuffles ever. Long term, it’s likely caused more trouble for May, with Greening’s departure.

    And in a day where TMay promoted Badenoch and Cleverly (probably hoping to get good headlines from it as well) Sam Coates tweeted this lol:

    I think it IS the worst reshuffle ever isn't it? No-one has been reshuffled have they, surely that is the key criteria of a reshuffle? One SoC has quit of her own accord while another has left due to ill health. The fact that the government have been trailing it for weeks just makes the whole fiasco even more embarrassing.

    Predictable but time will tell - the only criticism I would have is the sacking of Greening but including Social care in health and Housing in the DCLG are very good moves that will bear fruit
    In all fairness you are such a loyalist that May could have promoted Mr Blobby to Pensions Secretary and you would have spun it as a triumph for diversity.
    I find Big_G's unshakable loyalty to TMay rather endearing tbh. Misguided of course, but endearing nonetheless.
    Thanks Ben - loyalty is a commendable attribute
    You're welcome!

    If we have to continue with a Tory government, at least U-turn May has utter weakness going for her. She's no Thatcher, thank God! :smile:
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 293
    Scott_P said:
    What is Luciana Berger up to these days? She always struck me as a potential star for Labour, telegenic, intelligent, moderate etc.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 19,519

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I know. But how then does one signal one's utter contempt for the dismal fare on offer? It's not as if the bastards come round canvassing and listen to your views. So how the hell do you get across that having the choice between two malevolent and incompetent ideologies and a party that gives the impression of a corpse is not any sort of choice in a mature democracy?

    Welcome to my world :D

    I had to force myself to vote at the last GE. Once in the booth I had to stop myself spoiling the ballot. Part of my post-Brexit conversion from a mild BOO-er to a convinced Europhile was the distinct lack of homegrown political talent. Brussels is no prize, but Westminster makes it look competent.
    I don't know what the problem is. Like most of us, you'll remain well off, in a liberal democratic country.
    Which will be in decline because of a complete lack of leadership
    We'll have good, bad, and mediocre leaders, during the remainder of our lives. It won't alter the fact that this is on of the best places to live in.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 10,735
    Foxy said:

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    This reshuffle has got to be one of the most pointless reshuffles ever. Long term, it’s likely caused more trouble for May, with Greening’s departure.

    And in a day where TMay promoted Badenoch and Cleverly (probably hoping to get good headlines from it as well) Sam Coates tweeted this lol:

    I think it IS the worst reshuffle ever isn't it? No-one has been reshuffled have they, surely that is the key criteria of a reshuffle? One SoC has quit of her own accord while another has left due to ill health. The fact that the government have been trailing it for weeks just makes the whole fiasco even more embarrassing.

    Predictable but time will tell - the only criticism I would have is the sacking of Greening but including Social care in health and Housing in the DCLG are very good moves that will bear fruit
    In all fairness you are such a loyalist that May could have promoted Mr Blobby to Pensions Secretary and you would have spun it as a triumph for diversity.
    I find Big_G's unshakable loyalty to TMay rather endearing tbh. Misguided of course, but endearing nonetheless.
    Until he is loyal to the next leader. PB Tories are more like Marxists than they like :)
    I have been critical of TM in the past and not sure why she sacked Greening but I believe she has the worst hand in politics at present and is the best person to achieve a fair settlement with the EU.

    I do not see her leading into the next GE but this reshuffle together with the junior ministers tomorrow will give new blood a chance to shine and give Hunt a chance to come up with a long term solution on health and social care
  • Anazina said:

    Scott_P said:
    What is Luciana Berger up to these days? She always struck me as a potential star for Labour, telegenic, intelligent, moderate etc.
    Dealing with a fucktonne of anti-Semitic abuse from Labour supporters who want to oust her.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 293
    edited January 8

    Calling it - and a free column idea to any Sunday journalists reading this:

    Theresa May has a woman problem.

    (So did Thatcher. So did Elizabeth I, my infinitely better read wife assures me.)

    Also, ydoethur is spot on as usual.

    Yes women don't seem to get on with women who lack empathy. Funny that.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 3,114
    Anazina said:

    Scott_P said:
    What is Luciana Berger up to these days? She always struck me as a potential star for Labour, telegenic, intelligent, moderate etc.
    Isn't she just a bit too Jewish to succeed in the current Labour Party?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,890
    Anazina said:

    She always struck me as a potential star for Labour, telegenic, intelligent, moderate etc.

    Thus the reason she is not on Corbyn's front bench...
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 943
    Anazina said:

    Scott_P said:

    @simondhodges: @Alison_McGovern In a reshuffle that's been trailed for weeks, so far the PM has managed to sack no-one.

    Paddy McLoughlin got sacked I believe?
    First time I've seen someone leave the "final" interview with their boss with a big grin on their face....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,555
    edited January 8

    I think Graham Brady's getting a letter soon.

    She was offered DWP but turned it down. With Brexit talks ongoing I expect May will stay with a Davis coronation by Tory MPs the most likely alternative if there is a successful no confidence vote pre March 2019
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 293
    Scott_P said:

    Perhaps deliberately. Maybe Zahawi agrees with Nandy?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 15,953

    I think Graham Brady's getting a letter soon.

    The odds of a 2018 General Election must be shorter after today.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 12,280
    Cyclefree said:

    *snip*

    Similarly, I would not permit taxpayers' money spent on the NHS to be spent on homeopathy which is, again, bad science. I wonder whether all the people who use homeopathy or promote it are religious or atheists or whether this is irrelevant.

    But I think that expertise is valuable and not something to be shunned or sneered at. I wish we had more respect for people who value education and learning and expertise, whatever field that expertise is in.

    I agree with you completely on expertise etc (so long as the expertise is justified and there can still be cynicism too so long as it is for educated reasons rather than others).

    I would lump believers in homeopathy along with believers in astrology and pyschics as being the same kettle of fish as believers in religion. A rose by any other name.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 5,281

    I think Graham Brady's getting a letter soon.

    Expanded briefs? The reshuffle wasn't that exciting.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 19,519
    edited January 8
    Anazina said:

    Scott_P said:
    What is Luciana Berger up to these days? She always struck me as a potential star for Labour, telegenic, intelligent, moderate etc.
    Wrong race, wrong religion, for Labout
This discussion has been closed.