Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » After a chaotic day TMay’s position looks even weaker

2»

Comments

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 20,614
    edited January 9

    rcs1000 said:

    Apologies if already mentioned but the failure to demote Andrea Leadsom stands out for me how feeble May has been in this shambles.

    The only practical way May could satisfy those calling for her to “stamp her authority” would have been to sack one or more of the key ministers (Boris, Hammond, Davis) thus making for herself a powerful enemy on the back benches itching for the leadership role. It’s a mystery why she chose not to do this. Those complaining about lack of continuity in sacking Greening (who declined another role, sacking herself) don’t appear to apply the same logic to Fox or Leadsome.....
    Personally, I would have said adieu to Dr Liam Fox, and moved Hammond out of the Treasury. (I would have offered him the Business role, and if he didn't want it, he could return to the backbenches.)

    Boris is a difficult one: I don't think he enhances the prestige or standing of the United Kingdom, but he's a difficult man to sack. That being said, having demonstrated a willingness to fire senior people would have put Boris on notice.

    I would have been tempted to promote Gove, but I think he's doing a good job in a ministry that needs an intelligent man at the helm through Brexit.

    Greening, I would have kept in place. Leadsom is useless, goodbye. I would have promoted Kwasi Kwarteng into the Cabinet, perhaps taking Fox's role. People don't hate Kwasi, and he's really smart, which would be an enormous relief to both our trading partners and the civil servants at the DfIT.
    If “talent” was the only consideration then I’d agree - but much as a pilot’s first responsibility is to “fly the plane” a PM’s job is to “keep the show on the road” - sacking two prominent leavers while promoting Lidington would have made that more difficult. It’s a balancing act.
    The only prominent Leaver who should definitely (err) Leave is Dr Liam Fox.

    How about this:

    Gove (Leaver) promoted to CoE
    Hammond (Remainer) demoted to Business
    Dr Liam Fox (Leaver) to back benches
    Kwasi Kwarteng (Leaver) to DfIT
    JRM (Leaver) to Leader of the House
    Andrea Leadsom (Leaver) to her own house
    Rory Stewart (Remainer) to DfID
    Gavin Williamson (no idea) to DEFRA
    Penny Morduant (Leaver) to Defence

    (And for the record, I think we should be looking beyond Leave and Remain. Rory Stewart was a Remainer and deserves a chance, for example. I care far more about competence.)
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 15,917
    edited January 9
    @rcs1000 - In your favourite Gaitskell speech about Europe (https://www.cvce.eu/content/publication/1999/1/1/05f2996b-000b-4576-8b42-8069033a16f9/publishable_en.pdf), he refers to the side of the European movement that he does not like, and mentions their 'anti-Russian' 'intransigence over Berlin'.

    Did you know that what he was advocating was a reunified Germany as part of a 'neutral zone' as an alternative to unilateral disarmament? Adenauer regarded him as 'anathema', with good reason (https://books.google.com/books?id=LymHDAAAQBAJ).
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 26,204
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Apologies if already mentioned but the failure to demote Andrea Leadsom stands out for me how feeble May has been in this shambles.

    The only practical way May could satisfy those calling for her to “stamp her authority” would have been to sack one or more of the key ministers (Boris, Hammond, Davis) thus making for herself a powerful enemy on the back benches itching for the leadership role. It’s a mystery why she chose not to do this. Those complaining about lack of continuity in sacking Greening (who declined another role, sacking herself) don’t appear to apply the same logic to Fox or Leadsome.....
    Personally, I would have said adieu to Dr Liam Fox, and moved Hammond out of the Treasury. (I would have offered him the Business role, and if he didn't want it, he could return to the backbenches.)

    Boris is a difficult one: I don't think he enhances the prestige or standing of the United Kingdom, but he's a difficult man to sack. That being said, having demonstrated a willingness to fire senior people would have put Boris on notice.

    I would have been tempted to promote Gove, but I think he's doing a good job in a ministry that needs an intelligent man at the helm through Brexit.

    Greening, I would have kept in place. Leadsom is useless, goodbye. I would have promoted Kwasi Kwarteng into the Cabinet, perhaps taking Fox's role. People don't hate Kwasi, and he's really smart, which would be an enormous relief to both our trading partners and the civil servants at the DfIT.
    If “talent” was the only consideration then I’d agree - but much as a pilot’s first responsibility is to “fly the plane” a PM’s job is to “keep the show on the road” - sacking two prominent leavers while promoting Lidington would have made that more difficult. It’s a balancing act.
    I care far more about competence.
    If May was in a stronger position she might well have been bolder, meanwhile her main job is 'to keep the show on the road' - nothing in this reshuffle makes that less likely. Minister didn't want new job & resigned is hardly up there with Howe or Lawson.....
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 1,037


    Brexit isn't anywhere near the top issue for Labour voters the same way it is for Conservative voters or for many on here. That attempted wedge in the Labour support against Corbyn has been tried multiple times and failed miserably because it isn't the main issue.

    The sane moiety of the Labour party also know that, despite his intimations of immortality, JC and his attendant project isn't going to be around for ever. At some point the moderates will be back in control of the party and in government to begin the work of getting us back in the EU.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 2,629
    HYUFD said:

    TGOHF said:

    brendan16 said:

    TGOHF said:
    Start of public fractures in labour as Corbyn confirms single market exit.

    Now where are all those labour supporters who expect Corbyn to engineer a remain position
    Isn't Corbyn just reaffirming what the manifesto said,

    Labour wants all the benefits of being in the single market without being a member of the single market as that would mean keeping freedom of movement.

    And they presumably want to stay in a customs union with the EU/EEA but not in the customs union of the EU/EEA.

    I think it's called keeping everyone happy and promising the undeliverable!
    Chukka walking out of the PLP tonight is the first public display of discord
    Lol -Chukka has form for flouncing and not following through on action.
    Chuka sees himself as the Messiah of pro European and metropolitan liberals, he will bide his time in the Wilderness until he is called to lead his party back to the fabled centre ground and his country back to the promised land of the single market!
    I thought that was David Miliband's job. :lol:
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 2,629

    This is probably the biggest story of the day as it shows just how frit the government is of the consequences of Brexit.

    Very slowly, as the clock ticks down, the consequences are becoming starker. That’s why we’re heading for a very soft, fluffy, bouncy departure that will be all about seeking to hide away the multiple concessions the government will make to stop us falling off the cliff. It will be a lesson in negotiating with parties that hold all the cards.

    Nah, Jeremy Corbyn has her boxed in. Any "betrayal" will be down to her and her party alone.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 15,917

    HYUFD said:

    TGOHF said:

    brendan16 said:

    TGOHF said:
    Start of public fractures in labour as Corbyn confirms single market exit.

    Now where are all those labour supporters who expect Corbyn to engineer a remain position
    Isn't Corbyn just reaffirming what the manifesto said,

    Labour wants all the benefits of being in the single market without being a member of the single market as that would mean keeping freedom of movement.

    And they presumably want to stay in a customs union with the EU/EEA but not in the customs union of the EU/EEA.

    I think it's called keeping everyone happy and promising the undeliverable!
    Chukka walking out of the PLP tonight is the first public display of discord
    Lol -Chukka has form for flouncing and not following through on action.
    Chuka sees himself as the Messiah of pro European and metropolitan liberals, he will bide his time in the Wilderness until he is called to lead his party back to the fabled centre ground and his country back to the promised land of the single market!
    I thought that was David Miliband's job. :lol:
    Little do they know the Tories will cut them off at the knees by advocating joining the Euro.
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,693
    Reshuffles only work in achieving their objective (strengthening the PM, renewing the government, reinvigorating the delivery of policy, improving the country) if the PM has the strength to move people to the positions she wants them in, on pain of being sacked if they say no. But sacking people is dangerously difficult when there is no majority and when any increase in the number of disgruntled backbench former ministers is inherently dangerous to the parliamentary arithmetic. Thus the fact that this reshuffle has been a shambles is a direct consequence of the fact that the general election itself was a shambles.

    I am increasingly torn between the fact that we have a weak and dangerously incompetent prime minister, and the fact that one of my best friends is one of her closest advisors.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,592
    But, for all that, the embarrassment around the process is a bit of a Westminster village story that'll be forgotten in a fortnight.

    Far more important is how the ministers (both new and old) perform and how it affects the dynamic of Government in the future.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 26,204

    HYUFD said:

    TGOHF said:

    brendan16 said:

    TGOHF said:
    Start of public fractures in labour as Corbyn confirms single market exit.

    Now where are all those labour supporters who expect Corbyn to engineer a remain position
    Isn't Corbyn just reaffirming what the manifesto said,

    Labour wants all the benefits of being in the single market without being a member of the single market as that would mean keeping freedom of movement.

    And they presumably want to stay in a customs union with the EU/EEA but not in the customs union of the EU/EEA.

    I think it's called keeping everyone happy and promising the undeliverable!
    Chukka walking out of the PLP tonight is the first public display of discord
    Lol -Chukka has form for flouncing and not following through on action.
    Chuka sees himself as the Messiah of pro European and metropolitan liberals, he will bide his time in the Wilderness until he is called to lead his party back to the fabled centre ground and his country back to the promised land of the single market!
    I thought that was David Miliband's job. :lol:
    Little do they know the Tories will cut them off at the knees by advocating joining the Euro.
    Any of the “rising stars” Euro advocates?

    I thought that was the preserve of “yesterday’s men”? (Clarke, Heseltine....)
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 15,917

    HYUFD said:

    TGOHF said:

    brendan16 said:

    TGOHF said:
    Start of public fractures in labour as Corbyn confirms single market exit.

    Now where are all those labour supporters who expect Corbyn to engineer a remain position
    Isn't Corbyn just reaffirming what the manifesto said,

    Labour wants all the benefits of being in the single market without being a member of the single market as that would mean keeping freedom of movement.

    And they presumably want to stay in a customs union with the EU/EEA but not in the customs union of the EU/EEA.

    I think it's called keeping everyone happy and promising the undeliverable!
    Chukka walking out of the PLP tonight is the first public display of discord
    Lol -Chukka has form for flouncing and not following through on action.
    Chuka sees himself as the Messiah of pro European and metropolitan liberals, he will bide his time in the Wilderness until he is called to lead his party back to the fabled centre ground and his country back to the promised land of the single market!
    I thought that was David Miliband's job. :lol:
    Little do they know the Tories will cut them off at the knees by advocating joining the Euro.
    Any of the “rising stars” Euro advocates?
    “The statesman's task is to hear God's footsteps marching through history, and to try and catch on to His coattails as He marches past.”

    I'm sure there's a statesman to be found among them somewhere.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 15,402
    edited January 9

    But, for all that, the embarrassment around the process is a bit of a Westminster village story that'll be forgotten in a fortnight.

    Far more important is how the ministers (both new and old) perform and how it affects the dynamic of Government in the future.

    The embarrasment around the process shows why the the central office needs shaking up more than any Govt. department.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 1,037
    JohnLoony said:

    Reshuffles only work in achieving their objective (strengthening the PM, renewing the government, reinvigorating the delivery of policy, improving the country) if the PM has the strength to move people to the positions she wants them in, on pain of being sacked if they say no. But sacking people is dangerously difficult when there is no majority and when any increase in the number of disgruntled backbench former ministers is inherently dangerous to the parliamentary arithmetic. Thus the fact that this reshuffle has been a shambles is a direct consequence of the fact that the general election itself was a shambles.

    I am increasingly torn between the fact that we have a weak and dangerously incompetent prime minister, and the fact that one of my best friends is one of her closest advisors.

    She would have been better off doing nothing than whatever the fuck it was that reshuffle was supposed to be.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,948

    But, for all that, the embarrassment around the process is a bit of a Westminster village story that'll be forgotten in a fortnight.

    Far more important is how the ministers (both new and old) perform and how it affects the dynamic of Government in the future.

    Perhaps.
    The continuation in post of such luminaries as Leadsom, Fox, Grayling, Johnson et al doesn't inspire massive confidence on that score.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,948

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Apologies if already mentioned but the failure to demote Andrea Leadsom stands out for me how feeble May has been in this shambles.

    The only practical way May could satisfy those calling for her to “stamp her authority” would have been to sack one or more of the key ministers (Boris, Hammond, Davis) thus making for herself a powerful enemy on the back benches itching for the leadership role. It’s a mystery why she chose not to do this. Those complaining about lack of continuity in sacking Greening (who declined another role, sacking herself) don’t appear to apply the same logic to Fox or Leadsome.....
    Personally, I would have said adieu to Dr Liam Fox, and moved Hammond out of the Treasury. (I would have offered him the Business role, and if he didn't want it, he could return to the backbenches.)

    Boris is a difficult one: I don't think he enhances the prestige or standing of the United Kingdom, but he's a difficult man to sack. That being said, having demonstrated a willingness to fire senior people would have put Boris on notice.

    I would have been tempted to promote Gove, but I think he's doing a good job in a ministry that needs an intelligent man at the helm through Brexit.

    Greening, I would have kept in place. Leadsom is useless, goodbye. I would have promoted Kwasi Kwarteng into the Cabinet, perhaps taking Fox's role. People don't hate Kwasi, and he's really smart, which would be an enormous relief to both our trading partners and the civil servants at the DfIT.
    If “talent” was the only consideration then I’d agree - but much as a pilot’s first responsibility is to “fly the plane” a PM’s job is to “keep the show on the road” - sacking two prominent leavers while promoting Lidington would have made that more difficult. It’s a balancing act.
    I care far more about competence.
    If May was in a stronger position she might well have been bolder, meanwhile her main job is 'to keep the show on the road' - nothing in this reshuffle makes that less likely. Minister didn't want new job & resigned is hardly up there with Howe or Lawson.....
    And the rationale of a job switch (in both directions) between Education and Work & Pensions, after a year in post, was what, precisely ?
    Your dismissive comment hardly addresses the question of competence - though it does seem to echo May's attitude towards her ministers (in the cases where she actually has the capacity to exercise power over them).
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 26,204
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Apologies if already mentioned but the failure to demote Andrea Leadsom stands out for me how feeble May has been in this shambles.

    The only practical way May could satisfy those calling for her to “stamp her authority” would have been to sack one or more of the key ministers (Boris, Hammond, Davis) thus making for herself a powerful enemy on the back benches itching for the leadership role. It’s a mystery why she chose not to do this. Those complaining about lack of continuity in sacking Greening (who declined another role, sacking herself) don’t appear to apply the same logic to Fox or Leadsome.....
    Personally, I would have said adieu to Dr Liam Fox, and moved Hammond out of the Treasury. (I would have offered him the Business role, and if he didn't want it, he could return to the backbenches.)

    Boris is a difficult one: I don't think he enhances the prestige or standing of the United Kingdom, but he's a difficult man to sack. That being said, having demonstrated a willingness to fire senior people would have put Boris on notice.

    I would have been tempted to promote Gove, but I think he's doing a good job in a ministry that needs an intelligent man at the helm through Brexit.

    Greening, I would have kept in place. Leadsom is useless, goodbye. I would have promoted Kwasi Kwarteng into the Cabinet, perhaps taking Fox's role. People don't hate Kwasi, and he's really smart, which would be an enormous relief to both our trading partners and the civil servants at the DfIT.
    If “talent” was the only consideration then I’d agree - but much as a pilot’s first responsibility is to “fly the plane” a PM’s job is to “keep the show on the road” - sacking two prominent leavers while promoting Lidington would have made that more difficult. It’s a balancing act.
    I care far more about competence.
    If May was in a stronger position she might well have been bolder, meanwhile her main job is 'to keep the show on the road' - nothing in this reshuffle makes that less likely. Minister didn't want new job & resigned is hardly up there with Howe or Lawson.....
    And the rationale of a job switch (in both directions) between Education and Work & Pensions, after a year in post, was what, precisely ?
    Your dismissive comment hardly addresses the question of competence - though it does seem to echo May's attitude towards her ministers (in the cases where she actually has the capacity to exercise power over them).
    You think the reshuffle makes the continuation of May’s premiership less likely?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,948

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Apologies if already mentioned but the failure to demote Andrea Leadsom stands out for me how feeble May has been in this shambles.

    The only practical way May could satisfy those calling for her to “stamp her authority” would have been to sack one or more of the key ministers (Boris, Hammond, Davis) thus making for herself a powerful enemy on the back benches itching for the leadership role. It’s a mystery why she chose not to do this. Those complaining about lack of continuity in sacking Greening (who declined another role, sacking herself) don’t appear to apply the same logic to Fox or Leadsome.....
    Personally, I would have said adieu to Dr Liam Fox, and moved Hammond out of the Treasury. (I would have offered him the Business role, and if he didn't want it, he could return to the backbenches.)
    ...

    Greening, I would have kept in place. Leadsom is useless, goodbye. I would have promoted Kwasi Kwarteng into the Cabinet, perhaps taking Fox's role. People don't hate Kwasi, and he's really smart, which would be an enormous relief to both our trading partners and the civil servants at the DfIT.
    If “talent” was the only consideration then I’d agree - but much as a pilot’s first responsibility is to “fly the plane” a PM’s job is to “keep the show on the road” - sacking two prominent leavers while promoting Lidington would have made that more difficult. It’s a balancing act.
    I care far more about competence.
    If May was in a stronger position she might well have been bolder, meanwhile her main job is 'to keep the show on the road' - nothing in this reshuffle makes that less likely. Minister didn't want new job & resigned is hardly up there with Howe or Lawson.....
    And the rationale of a job switch (in both directions) between Education and Work & Pensions, after a year in post, was what, precisely ?
    Your dismissive comment hardly addresses the question of competence - though it does seem to echo May's attitude towards her ministers (in the cases where she actually has the capacity to exercise power over them).
    You think the reshuffle makes the continuation of May’s premiership less likely?
    It marginally reduces the already low competence of the government.
    I don't share your obsession with the continuation of May in post.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 26,204
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Apologies if already mentioned but the failure to demote Andrea Leadsom stands out for me how feeble May has been in this shambles.

    The only practical way May could satisfy those calling for her to “stamp her authority” would have been to sack one or more of the key ministers (Boris, Hammond, Davis) thus making for herself a powerful enemy on the back benches itching for the leadership role. It’s a mystery why she chose not to do this. Those complaining about lack of continuity in sacking Greening (who declined another role, sacking herself) don’t appear to apply the same logic to Fox or Leadsome.....
    Personally, I would have said adieu to Dr Liam Fox, and moved Hammond out of the Treasury. (I would have offered him the Business role, and if he didn't want it, he could return to the backbenches.)
    ...

    Greening, I would have kept in place. Leadsom is useless, goodbye. I would have promoted Kwasi Kwarteng into the Cabinet, perhaps taking Fox's role. People don't hate Kwasi, and he's really smart, which would be an enormous relief to both our trading partners and the civil servants at the DfIT.
    If “talent” was the only consideration then I’d agree - but much as a pilot’s first responsibility is to “fly the plane” a PM’s job is to “keep the show on the road” - sacking two prominent leavers while promoting Lidington would have made that more difficult. It’s a balancing act.
    I care far more about competence.
    If May was in a stronger position she might well have been bolder, meanwhile her main job is 'to keep the show on the road' - nothing in this reshuffle makes that less likely. Minister didn't want new job & resigned is hardly up there with Howe or Lawson.....
    And the rationale of a job switch (in both directions) between Education and Work & Pensions, after a year in post, was what, precisely ?
    Your dismissive comment hardly addresses the question of competence - though it does seem to echo May's attitude towards her ministers (in the cases where she actually has the capacity to exercise power over them).
    You think the reshuffle makes the continuation of May’s premiership less likely?
    It marginally reduces the already low competence of the government.
    I don't share your obsession with the continuation of May in post.
    It’s not an “obsession” - simply an observation of a key motivator among all the high minded comments from people who wouldn’t have to deal with the consequences of a “bolder” approach.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 943

    HYUFD said:

    TGOHF said:

    brendan16 said:

    TGOHF said:
    Start of public fractures in labour as Corbyn confirms single market exit.

    Now where are all those labour supporters who expect Corbyn to engineer a remain position
    Isn't Corbyn just reaffirming what the manifesto said,

    Labour wants all the benefits of being in the single market without being a member of the single market as that would mean keeping freedom of movement.

    And they presumably want to stay in a customs union with the EU/EEA but not in the customs union of the EU/EEA.

    I think it's called keeping everyone happy and promising the undeliverable!
    Chukka walking out of the PLP tonight is the first public display of discord
    Lol -Chukka has form for flouncing and not following through on action.
    Chuka sees himself as the Messiah of pro European and metropolitan liberals, he will bide his time in the Wilderness until he is called to lead his party back to the fabled centre ground and his country back to the promised land of the single market!
    I thought that was David Miliband's job. :lol:
    Even the Sainted David realises he is yesterday's man, the recent attempt to bring him in from the cold failed. From the Crown Prince heir apparent to being usurped by his own brother at his own coronation, to be a king of another (charity) in a country, far, far away....
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 18,174
    So Toby Young's gone.

    None of his individual 'sins' were bad: he is, after all, a paid loudmouth. But when the sins were aggregated, it's fairly clear that he was utterly unsuited for the role.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,592
    FFS.
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,014
    Re Toby Young - his choice but a sad victory for Internet trolling. Can no-one with past silliness ever move on? Labour much more forgiving of its own embarrassments.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,592
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Apologies if already mentioned but the failure to demote Andrea Leadsom stands out for me how feeble May has been in this shambles.

    The only practical way May could satisfy those calling for her to “stamp her authority” would have been to sack one or more of the key ministers (Boris, Hammond, Davis) thus making for herself a powerful enemy on the back benches itching for the leadership role. It’s a mystery why she chose not to do this. Those complaining about lack of continuity in sacking Greening (who declined another role, sacking herself) don’t appear to apply the same logic to Fox or Leadsome.....
    Personally, I would have said adieu to Dr Liam Fox, and moved Hammond out of the Treasury. (I would have offered him the Business role, and if he didn't want it, he could return to the backbenches.)

    Boris is a difficult one: I don't think he enhances the prestige or standing of the United Kingdom, but he's a difficult man to sack. That being said, having demonstrated a willingness to fire senior people would have put Boris on notice.

    I would have been tempted to promote Gove, but I think he's doing a good job in a ministry that needs an intelligent man at the helm through Brexit.

    Greening, I would have kept in place. Leadsom is useless, goodbye. I would have promoted Kwasi Kwarteng into the Cabinet, perhaps taking Fox's role. People don't hate Kwasi, and he's really smart, which would be an enormous relief to both our trading partners and the civil servants at the DfIT.
    If “talent” was the only consideration then I’d agree - but much as a pilot’s first responsibility is to “fly the plane” a PM’s job is to “keep the show on the road” - sacking two prominent leavers while promoting Lidington would have made that more difficult. It’s a balancing act.
    The only prominent Leaver who should definitely (err) Leave is Dr Liam Fox.

    How about this:

    Gove (Leaver) promoted to CoE
    Hammond (Remainer) demoted to Business
    Dr Liam Fox (Leaver) to back benches
    Kwasi Kwarteng (Leaver) to DfIT
    JRM (Leaver) to Leader of the House
    Andrea Leadsom (Leaver) to her own house
    Rory Stewart (Remainer) to DfID
    Gavin Williamson (no idea) to DEFRA
    Penny Morduant (Leaver) to Defence

    (And for the record, I think we should be looking beyond Leave and Remain. Rory Stewart was a Remainer and deserves a chance, for example. I care far more about competence.)
    Not a bad list.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 26,204
    felix said:

    Re Toby Young - his choice but a sad victory for Internet trolling. Can no-one with past silliness ever move on? Labour much more forgiving of its own embarrassments.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,859
    @BBCNormanS: Toby Young issues "unreserved apology" for statements made while "a journalistic provocateur."

    I wonder if BoZo will ever do the same...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,952
    What is concerning about the Greening situation is that it appears that someone who belives in State and indeed Comprehensive Eeducation has gone, to be replaced by someone who has advocated separete religious schools.

    It’ll be Dame Schools next as a Tory policy!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 18,174
    felix said:

    Re Toby Young - his choice but a sad victory for Internet trolling. Can no-one with past silliness ever move on? Labour much more forgiving of its own embarrassments.

    If the role's valuable, then it should have the best possible candidate in it. If it isn't valuable, then it shouldn't exist.

    I'm far from convinced that Young was a good candidate for the role, yet alone the best. What's clear from this and other events is that we have a problem with recruiting into such roles in this country - it often isn't done on merit, but on who you know.

    A bigger question is whether the government has created another unnecessary enemy.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,592
    felix said:

    Re Toby Young - his choice but a sad victory for Internet trolling. Can no-one with past silliness ever move on? Labour much more forgiving of its own embarrassments.

    Rules out a lot of people. He should have told them to get stuffed.
  • Labour's policy on Brexit doesn't matter much as it'll have been done before the election. Would be nice if we were positioning for afterwards, but no chance that Jezbollah has it thought through that well.

    As for Toby Young, if 200k signatures is all it takes to force uncaring oaf to quit then McVile should be worried...
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 18,174
    In other news, the US lost a heavily-publicised 'secret' payload after a rocket launch the other day.

    The Northrop-Grumman Zuma payload may have re-entered the atmosphere; it is unclear what went wrong, but SpaceX claim it wasn't the rocket's fault.

    This is all rather intriguing, as the Zuma mission has been a secret missions almost designed to garner publicity: it was hurriedly rushed up the manifest back in November, 'taking' a rocket due for another mission, and then was stood down for odd reasons. It finally launched yesterday morning, and appears to have gone wrong.

    So, a rare failure for SpaceX, a payload failure, or did everything really go well and this is all a misdirection?

    https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/9/16866806/spacex-zuma-mission-failure-northrop-grumman-classified-falcon-9-rocket
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 2,629
    Leadsom is now in favour of equal marriage, according to Pink News. Scraping the barnacles off the boat for a future leadership challenge?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,909
    Rather than make her stronger the reshuffle has weakened May. Well, what a surprise. She has almost no room for manoeuvre following the GE disaster. She really has to come to terms with that and stop pretending otherwise.

    I fear the removal of Greening is a response to her standing up to the PM and making it clear that the Grammar school policy the PM espoused was silly and unpopular. I think Esther McVey has a hell of a job on her hands getting UC to work before the next election. I wish her well but it is a big ask. Grayling, Fox and the blessed mother remaining in place shows how pointless the exercise was.

    All in all a shambles by a stunningly incompetent PM.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 20,614

    In other news, the US lost a heavily-publicised 'secret' payload after a rocket launch the other day.

    The Northrop-Grumman Zuma payload may have re-entered the atmosphere; it is unclear what went wrong, but SpaceX claim it wasn't the rocket's fault.

    This is all rather intriguing, as the Zuma mission has been a secret missions almost designed to garner publicity: it was hurriedly rushed up the manifest back in November, 'taking' a rocket due for another mission, and then was stood down for odd reasons. It finally launched yesterday morning, and appears to have gone wrong.

    So, a rare failure for SpaceX, a payload failure, or did everything really go well and this is all a misdirection?

    https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/9/16866806/spacex-zuma-mission-failure-northrop-grumman-classified-falcon-9-rocket

    My money is on the last.
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,014

    Labour's policy on Brexit doesn't matter much as it'll have been done before the election. Would be nice if we were positioning for afterwards, but no chance that Jezbollah has it thought through that well.

    As for Toby Young, if 200k signatures is all it takes to force uncaring oaf to quit then McVile should be worried...

    I see the real nasties are up early - keen for a lynching are you?
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 2,629

    Labour's policy on Brexit doesn't matter much as it'll have been done before the election. Would be nice if we were positioning for afterwards, but no chance that Jezbollah has it thought through that well.

    As for Toby Young, if 200k signatures is all it takes to force uncaring oaf to quit then McVile should be worried...

    If they still had Brookside on TV, she would be the prefect villain from central casting who marries some old geezer to get her hands on his pension, then murders him and buries him beneath the patio in the back garden.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 18,174
    rcs1000 said:

    In other news, the US lost a heavily-publicised 'secret' payload after a rocket launch the other day.

    The Northrop-Grumman Zuma payload may have re-entered the atmosphere; it is unclear what went wrong, but SpaceX claim it wasn't the rocket's fault.

    This is all rather intriguing, as the Zuma mission has been a secret missions almost designed to garner publicity: it was hurriedly rushed up the manifest back in November, 'taking' a rocket due for another mission, and then was stood down for odd reasons. It finally launched yesterday morning, and appears to have gone wrong.

    So, a rare failure for SpaceX, a payload failure, or did everything really go well and this is all a misdirection?

    https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/9/16866806/spacex-zuma-mission-failure-northrop-grumman-classified-falcon-9-rocket

    My money is on the last.
    Mine as well. I'm not normally a conspiracy theorist, but this whole mission's just been so darned odd. In comparison, SpaceX's launch of the secretive X-37 spaceplane went so cleanly last September.
  • felix said:

    Labour's policy on Brexit doesn't matter much as it'll have been done before the election. Would be nice if we were positioning for afterwards, but no chance that Jezbollah has it thought through that well.

    As for Toby Young, if 200k signatures is all it takes to force uncaring oaf to quit then McVile should be worried...

    I see the real nasties are up early - keen for a lynching are you?
    She was. Then she lost her seat. Now shes back in a safe seat as long as she wants it. Perhaps she's decided the disabled are people too. Perhaps not.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 313

    What is concerning about the Greening situation is that it appears that someone who belives in State and indeed Comprehensive Eeducation has gone, to be replaced by someone who has advocated separete religious schools.

    It’ll be Dame Schools next as a Tory policy!

    That was Greenings crime, she doesn't agree with May over more Grammar schools. Tis a pity the first ever Education Secretary from a Comprehensive has gone in such a way. Still, Angela Rayner is something to look forward to.

    I don't blame her for refusing DWP with the poisoned chalice of UC. She may well be better off cultivating her constituency, it is likely to be an electoral target next time.

    So the Twittermob got Toby? It is hard to have a lot of sympathy. Those who live by the sword, die by the sword.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 9,023
    felix said:

    Re Toby Young - his choice but a sad victory for Internet trolling. Can no-one with past silliness ever move on? Labour much more forgiving of its own embarrassments.

    Ah, so Mr Free Speech No Nonsense Tough Debate Not Afraid To Ruffle Feathers can't take some anonymous people being mean to him* on Twitter?

    * I.e. accurately quoting things he's said and written in the past.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 2,629
    Byeee Toby!
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 4,242
    Foxy said:

    What is concerning about the Greening situation is that it appears that someone who belives in State and indeed Comprehensive Eeducation has gone, to be replaced by someone who has advocated separete religious schools.

    It’ll be Dame Schools next as a Tory policy!

    That was Greenings crime, she doesn't agree with May over more Grammar schools. Tis a pity the first ever Education Secretary from a Comprehensive has gone in such a way. Still, Angela Rayner is something to look forward to.

    I don't blame her for refusing DWP with the poisoned chalice of UC. She may well be better off cultivating her constituency, it is likely to be an electoral target next time.

    So the Twittermob got Toby? It is hard to have a lot of sympathy. Those who live by the sword, die by the sword.
    Bollocks. The Twitter mob didn't get Tony but Tony himself. These were not things said by someone in their youth but by a grown man in his late 40s at the time.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,909
    rcs1000 said:
    So if China bans bitcoin mining does that kill bitcoin or increase their value by reducing the supply of new coins? My guess would be the former because there is no inherent value in bitcoin to be enhanced by rarity but it is a completely weird market. My daughter discovered that she had a few hundred invested in Bitcoin through a portfolio and sold out for over £8K, roughly a 20 fold increase on her investment, but those holding on now seem to me to be moving from the brave to the foolhardy.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 8,726

    Labour's policy on Brexit doesn't matter much as it'll have been done before the election. Would be nice if we were positioning for afterwards, but no chance that Jezbollah has it thought through that well.

    As for Toby Young, if 200k signatures is all it takes to force uncaring oaf to quit then McVile should be worried...

    If they still had Brookside on TV, she would be the prefect villain from central casting who marries some old geezer to get her hands on his pension, then murders him and buries him beneath the patio in the back garden.
    People should really take a look at themselves before posting horrid tripe like this.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 9,023
    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:
    So if China bans bitcoin mining does that kill bitcoin or increase their value by reducing the supply of new coins? My guess would be the former because there is no inherent value in bitcoin to be enhanced by rarity but it is a completely weird market. My daughter discovered that she had a few hundred invested in Bitcoin through a portfolio and sold out for over £8K, roughly a 20 fold increase on her investment, but those holding on now seem to me to be moving from the brave to the foolhardy.
    The Bitcoin algorithm keeps the supply of new bitcoins constant regardless of the number of miners.

    A reduction in minimum power of the network would necessarily see the price drop however due to the implicit link between hash rate and price ( bitcoin can't be worth more than a multiple.of the power necessary to hash otherwise it becomes profitable to attack the network.)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 18,174

    Foxy said:

    What is concerning about the Greening situation is that it appears that someone who belives in State and indeed Comprehensive Eeducation has gone, to be replaced by someone who has advocated separete religious schools.

    It’ll be Dame Schools next as a Tory policy!

    That was Greenings crime, she doesn't agree with May over more Grammar schools. Tis a pity the first ever Education Secretary from a Comprehensive has gone in such a way. Still, Angela Rayner is something to look forward to.

    I don't blame her for refusing DWP with the poisoned chalice of UC. She may well be better off cultivating her constituency, it is likely to be an electoral target next time.

    So the Twittermob got Toby? It is hard to have a lot of sympathy. Those who live by the sword, die by the sword.
    Bollocks. The Twitter mob didn't get Tony but Tony himself. These were not things said by someone in their youth but by a grown man in his late 40s at the time.
    +1

    I fail to see why Young was suited for this role. Can any of his supporters say why he was a good candidate, yet alone the best?

    Next: Sean Thomas for governmental adviser on women's issues ... ;)
  • PongPong Posts: 4,614
    The wanker's gone.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,909
    Toby Young is a prat who is not nearly as witty or funny or clever as he thinks he is but taking days of twitterstorm only to have him quit as the caravan moved on to the reshuffle shambles seems the worst possible outcome for the government once again.

    This government so needs a manager like Osborne was for Cameron or Mandelson was latterly for Brown. The idea that Green could fulfil that role was pretty laughable but is there anyone who thinks that Lidington is up to that job? Without some central grip we are condemned to more of the same, drift on the currents of world affairs without a paddle and with the odd capsize.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,948

    rcs1000 said:

    In other news, the US lost a heavily-publicised 'secret' payload after a rocket launch the other day.

    The Northrop-Grumman Zuma payload may have re-entered the atmosphere; it is unclear what went wrong, but SpaceX claim it wasn't the rocket's fault.

    This is all rather intriguing, as the Zuma mission has been a secret missions almost designed to garner publicity: it was hurriedly rushed up the manifest back in November, 'taking' a rocket due for another mission, and then was stood down for odd reasons. It finally launched yesterday morning, and appears to have gone wrong.

    So, a rare failure for SpaceX, a payload failure, or did everything really go well and this is all a misdirection?

    https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/9/16866806/spacex-zuma-mission-failure-northrop-grumman-classified-falcon-9-rocket

    My money is on the last.
    Mine as well. I'm not normally a conspiracy theorist, but this whole mission's just been so darned odd. In comparison, SpaceX's launch of the secretive X-37 spaceplane went so cleanly last September.
    Seems mildly unlikely, particularly as it should eventually be spottable by amateurs if still in orbit.
    This looks more likely, and explains the apparently conflicting accounts:
    Northrop Grumman provided its own payload adapter for this mission. And if that payload adapter failed, it would have left the satellite still attached to the upper portion of the rocket. That’s certainly a mission failure, but it wouldn’t necessarily be the fault of the Falcon 9...
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 18,174
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    In other news, the US lost a heavily-publicised 'secret' payload after a rocket launch the other day.

    The Northrop-Grumman Zuma payload may have re-entered the atmosphere; it is unclear what went wrong, but SpaceX claim it wasn't the rocket's fault.

    This is all rather intriguing, as the Zuma mission has been a secret missions almost designed to garner publicity: it was hurriedly rushed up the manifest back in November, 'taking' a rocket due for another mission, and then was stood down for odd reasons. It finally launched yesterday morning, and appears to have gone wrong.

    So, a rare failure for SpaceX, a payload failure, or did everything really go well and this is all a misdirection?

    https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/9/16866806/spacex-zuma-mission-failure-northrop-grumman-classified-falcon-9-rocket

    My money is on the last.
    Mine as well. I'm not normally a conspiracy theorist, but this whole mission's just been so darned odd. In comparison, SpaceX's launch of the secretive X-37 spaceplane went so cleanly last September.
    Seems mildly unlikely, particularly as it should eventually be spottable by amateurs if still in orbit.
    This looks more likely, and explains the apparently conflicting accounts:
    Northrop Grumman provided its own payload adapter for this mission. And if that payload adapter failed, it would have left the satellite still attached to the upper portion of the rocket. That’s certainly a mission failure, but it wouldn’t necessarily be the fault of the Falcon 9...
    Possibly. But the whole thing's intriguing given the urgent nature of the cancelled first launch. It's been alleged that the payload was really expensive, so if it is an unplanned 'failure' of he sort mentioned (as opposed to misdirection) then the US government and NG are going to be hurting.

    It hasn't been a stellar example of how to run a 'black' project...
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,909
    Pong said:

    The wanker's gone.

    Before Christmas in fact. Do keep up.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,328
    So, some sneering MP who is never likely to reach cabinet shouts his/her mouth off and everyone else is piling in calling it a disaster, its just another day of MP's and commentators whining about xyz and frankly I just don't care anymore. Opposition is even worse than the Govt. God help the UK and N I.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,948
    felix said:

    Re Toby Young - his choice but a sad victory for Internet trolling. Can no-one with past silliness ever move on? Labour much more forgiving of its own embarrassments.

    Isn't it a rather a defeat for internet trolling, of which Young was something of an exponent ?

    And yes, it's perfectly possible to move on. The problem with Young is that he carried on with the silliness alongside his more grownup activities - and that some of his expressed views (on disability, for example) directly contradict legislated priorities.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,859
    @PolhomeEditor: There speaks a minister forced to defend Toby Young for an hour in the Commons yesterday only for him to quit this… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/950634365012316160
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,859
    Foxy said:

    Angela Rayner is something to look forward to.

    So the Twittermob got Toby? It is hard to have a lot of sympathy. Those who live by the sword, die by the sword.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,859

    Next: Sean Thomas for governmental adviser on women's issues ... ;)

  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 1,300

    Foxy said:

    What is concerning about the Greening situation is that it appears that someone who belives in State and indeed Comprehensive Eeducation has gone, to be replaced by someone who has advocated separete religious schools.

    It’ll be Dame Schools next as a Tory policy!

    That was Greenings crime, she doesn't agree with May over more Grammar schools. Tis a pity the first ever Education Secretary from a Comprehensive has gone in such a way. Still, Angela Rayner is something to look forward to.

    I don't blame her for refusing DWP with the poisoned chalice of UC. She may well be better off cultivating her constituency, it is likely to be an electoral target next time.

    So the Twittermob got Toby? It is hard to have a lot of sympathy. Those who live by the sword, die by the sword.
    Bollocks. The Twitter mob didn't get Tony but Tony himself. These were not things said by someone in their youth but by a grown man in his late 40s at the time.
    +1

    I fail to see why Young was suited for this role. Can any of his supporters say why he was a good candidate, yet alone the best?

    Next: Sean Thomas for governmental adviser on women's issues ... ;)
    Exactly. There is only role for which there is any competition that Toby Young qualifies for. His worse enemy.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,948

    Labour's policy on Brexit doesn't matter much as it'll have been done before the election. Would be nice if we were positioning for afterwards, but no chance that Jezbollah has it thought through that well.

    As for Toby Young, if 200k signatures is all it takes to force uncaring oaf to quit then McVile should be worried...

    So you're a McDonnellite lyncher ?
    I prefer the Jess Phillips line:
    While disagreeing with McVey's politics, she described McDonnell's comments as "utterly despicable", and added "I cannot imagine why he refuses to apologise"
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 313

    Foxy said:

    What is concerning about the Greening situation is that it appears that someone who belives in State and indeed Comprehensive Eeducation has gone, to be replaced by someone who has advocated separete religious schools.

    It’ll be Dame Schools next as a Tory policy!

    That was Greenings crime, she doesn't agree with May over more Grammar schools. Tis a pity the first ever Education Secretary from a Comprehensive has gone in such a way. Still, Angela Rayner is something to look forward to.

    I don't blame her for refusing DWP with the poisoned chalice of UC. She may well be better off cultivating her constituency, it is likely to be an electoral target next time.

    So the Twittermob got Toby? It is hard to have a lot of sympathy. Those who live by the sword, die by the sword.
    Bollocks. The Twitter mob didn't get Tony but Tony himself. These were not things said by someone in their youth but by a grown man in his late 40s at the time.
    Toby certainly gave the Twittermob enough material to work with, and much of it fairly recent.

    I think it was the Mail on Sunday frontpage that was the final nail though. A period of dignified silence is called for, bit knowing Toby's record is unlikely.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,909
    Scott_P said:
    "A hit, a hit, a palpable hit."

    This is quite a depressing morning for those naturally inclined to support the government.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 313
    Nigelb said:

    Labour's policy on Brexit doesn't matter much as it'll have been done before the election. Would be nice if we were positioning for afterwards, but no chance that Jezbollah has it thought through that well.

    As for Toby Young, if 200k signatures is all it takes to force uncaring oaf to quit then McVile should be worried...

    So you're a McDonnellite lyncher ?
    I prefer the Jess Phillips line:
    While disagreeing with McVey's politics, she described McDonnell's comments as "utterly despicable", and added "I cannot imagine why he refuses to apologise"
    Yeah. Jess Phillips is bang on the money.

    John McDonnell seems to come from the never apologise school of politics.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 18,174
    Scott_P said:

    Next: Sean Thomas for governmental adviser on women's issues ... ;)

    LOL. I hadn't seen that tweet ...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,592
    felix said:

    Labour's policy on Brexit doesn't matter much as it'll have been done before the election. Would be nice if we were positioning for afterwards, but no chance that Jezbollah has it thought through that well.

    As for Toby Young, if 200k signatures is all it takes to force uncaring oaf to quit then McVile should be worried...

    I see the real nasties are up early - keen for a lynching are you?
    He probably means McDonnell.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,614
    edited January 9
    DavidL said:

    Pong said:

    The wanker's gone.

    Before Christmas in fact. Do keep up.
    no no

    Damien wasn't a wanker. He was a liar, which was why he had to go. Toby's case is quite different. It was his inability to lie about wanking over poor people wot got him.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 9,023
    Scott_P said:
    I can see why a newspaper columnists who has controversial opinions for money on a regular basis is worried that people got a bit cross about a newspaper columnists who has controversial opinions for money on a regular basis.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 1,300

    So Toby Young's gone.

    None of his individual 'sins' were bad: he is, after all, a paid loudmouth. But when the sins were aggregated, it's fairly clear that he was utterly unsuited for the role.

    Being a paid loud mouth is now a valid occupation?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,512

    HYUFD said:

    TGOHF said:

    brendan16 said:

    TGOHF said:
    Start of public fractures in labour as Corbyn confirms single market exit.

    Now where are all those labour supporters who expect Corbyn to engineer a remain position
    Isn't Corbyn just reaffirming what the manifesto said,

    Labour wants all the benefits of being in the single market without being a member of the single market as that would mean keeping freedom of movement.

    And they presumably want to stay in a customs union with the EU/EEA but not in the customs union of the EU/EEA.

    I think it's called keeping everyone happy and promising the undeliverable!
    Chukka walking out of the PLP tonight is the first public display of discord
    Lol -Chukka has form for flouncing and not following through on action.
    Chuka sees himself as the Messiah of pro European and metropolitan liberals, he will bide his time in the Wilderness until he is called to lead his party back to the fabled centre ground and his country back to the promised land of the single market!
    I thought that was David Miliband's job. :lol:
    Little do they know the Tories will cut them off at the knees by advocating joining the Euro.
    Dream on, there is more chance of the Tories advocating a Marxist economy now
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 9,023
    edited January 9

    So Toby Young's gone.

    None of his individual 'sins' were bad: he is, after all, a paid loudmouth. But when the sins were aggregated, it's fairly clear that he was utterly unsuited for the role.

    Being a paid loud mouth is now a valid occupation?
    Yes, apparently being twat for money absolves you of the twatishness apparently.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 313
    Alistair said:

    Scott_P said:
    I can see why a newspaper columnists who has controversial opinions for money on a regular basis is worried that people got a bit cross about a newspaper columnists who has controversial opinions for money on a regular basis.
    I used to rather like Spiked-Online, and it is still ocassionally interesting. Its journey from Communism to alt.right rabbit hole is a strange one though.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 7,190
    Can I reiterate my view that the Toby Young row was hyped to distract attention from the dull reshuffle?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 7,190

    Can I reiterate my view that the Toby Young row was hyped to distract attention from the dull reshuffle?

    New thread!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 18,174

    So Toby Young's gone.

    None of his individual 'sins' were bad: he is, after all, a paid loudmouth. But when the sins were aggregated, it's fairly clear that he was utterly unsuited for the role.

    Being a paid loud mouth is now a valid occupation?
    Define 'valid' . ;)
This discussion has been closed.