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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Toby Young quits so helping TMay by taking the attention away

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  • The sex toy minister has lost his job in the reshuffle.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 18,176
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Hope he's not walking. That usually takes him months.
    A good reason why he should be PM. ;)

    After all, it's not as if we've had a PM who loves walking who's been a failure, is it?

    Ahem.
    Maybe she didn't walk far enough. There are a few piers and planks she could have gone further on for a start.
    I'm starting to wonder if Theresa May is actually Sideshow Bob. It certainly sums up her governing style ...

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 16,541
    edited January 9
    murali_s said:

    Though there are issues with the education system in this country, the biggest problem is educational aspiration - it's a culture thing. Until the culture changes, WWC children in particular will continue to underperform. It's that simple...

    I agree with murali shock...

    Goes beyond education though - the fetishisation of being "working class" that Labour encourage is a major barrier.


  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 25,278
    edited January 9
    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Toby Young's essential problem was that he was entirely unqualified for the job. He would have been able to ride out the media storm if he had something to offer. But he didn't.

    Yes - the last thing Universities need is someone outside the academia bubble representing the consumers of their product - the prospective students.

    They should queue up to hand over £9k a year and take what they are given.

    Toby Young has absolutely no qualification to perform that role. Other than being chums with the family of the relevant minister. So his Neanderthal views assumed disproportionate importance.
    Apart from setting up 3 excellent schools - yeah what would he know about what pupils and parents want from education..

    He set up schools at huge expense that are now performing at a decent standard in a city that has the best state school system in the country. That he worked hard to do it is beyond dispute, but the results at the schools themselves are nothing special in London. A real achievement would have been to do what he has done in a part of the country where the schools generally are not performing.
    Well what is stopping the shrieking ninnies of Labour twitter setting up schools in other parts of the country ? Perhaps it's easier to tweet than do.

    I have no idea - I suspect that most people in Labour are opposed to free schools because they take resources away from existing schools. My only point is that Toby's schools are performing at the level you'd expect them to perform given their location and pupil profile. In fact, given the resources they have been given, there is an argument for saying they should be doing a lot better.

  • FF43FF43 Posts: 5,401

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Toby Young's essential problem was that he was entirely unqualified for the job. He would have been able to ride out the media storm if he had something to offer. But he didn't.

    Yes - the last thing Universities need is someone outside the academia bubble representing the consumers of their product - the prospective students.

    They should queue up to hand over £9k a year and take what they are given.

    Toby Young has absolutely no qualification to perform that role. Other than being chums with the family of the relevant minister. So his Neanderthal views assumed disproportionate importance.
    Apart from setting up 3 excellent schools - yeah what would he know about what pupils and parents want from education..
    This may come as a revelation to you but schools are not universities.

    Universities are one part of this country that function pretty well by any objective measure. It is hard to see why the government should wish to let their unqualified chums meddle with them.
    From a student's perspective, universities are questionable value for money. As they are now substantially funding their own education, students rightly have a bigger say over what they get for their money. Ideological nonsense about "no platforming" is a distraction.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,926

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Toby Young's essential problem was that he was entirely unqualified for the job. He would have been able to ride out the media storm if he had something to offer. But he didn't.

    Yes - the last thing Universities need is someone outside the academia bubble representing the consumers of their product - the prospective students.

    They should queue up to hand over £9k a year and take what they are given.

    Toby Young has absolutely no qualification to perform that role. Other than being chums with the family of the relevant minister. So his Neanderthal views assumed disproportionate importance.
    Apart from setting up 3 excellent schools - yeah what would he know about what pupils and parents want from education..
    Universities are one part of this country that function pretty well by any objective measure. It is hard to see why the government should wish to let their unqualified chums meddle with them.
    Are they ? They seem quite effective at taking in state cash - who is monitoring their added value ?
    There are numerous league tables comparing universities internationally. Britain's universities always do remarkably well.
    Our elite Universities are undoubtedly world class. But there is a hell of a tail and it is overcharging for what it provides.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 25,278
    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Toby Young's essential problem was that he was entirely unqualified for the job. He would have been able to ride out the media storm if he had something to offer. But he didn't.

    Yes - the last thing Universities need is someone outside the academia bubble representing the consumers of their product - the prospective students.

    They should queue up to hand over £9k a year and take what they are given.

    Toby Young has absolutely no qualification to perform that role. Other than being chums with the family of the relevant minister. So his Neanderthal views assumed disproportionate importance.
    Apart from setting up 3 excellent schools - yeah what would he know about what pupils and parents want from education..
    Universities are one part of this country that function pretty well by any objective measure. It is hard to see why the government should wish to let their unqualified chums meddle with them.
    Are they ? They seem quite effective at taking in state cash - who is monitoring their added value ?
    There are numerous league tables comparing universities internationally. Britain's universities always do remarkably well.
    Oxbridge certainly does well.

    In other news if you include Eton and Harrow, our education system is the best in the world.

    No, it's many more than Oxbridge. There has been a decline over recent years, but even now our universities generally rank very highly in international tables - second only to the Americans, I believe.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 26,236
    Lilian Baylis of the Old Vic was another not to let tact get in the way of clarity - to a Juliet - “You’ve had your chance my dear, and you’ve muffed it.” Also “Sweet little Goneril”.....
  • So far this morning Mrs May has sacked 4 junior ministers.

    What's her majority again?
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 5,721

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Toby Young's essential problem was that he was entirely unqualified for the job. He would have been able to ride out the media storm if he had something to offer. But he didn't.

    Yes - the last thing Universities need is someone outside the academia bubble representing the consumers of their product - the prospective students.

    They should queue up to hand over £9k a year and take what they are given.

    Toby Young has absolutely no qualification to perform that role. Other than being chums with the family of the relevant minister. So his Neanderthal views assumed disproportionate importance.
    Apart from setting up 3 excellent schools - yeah what would he know about what pupils and parents want from education..
    Universities are one part of this country that function pretty well by any objective measure. It is hard to see why the government should wish to let their unqualified chums meddle with them.
    Are they ? They seem quite effective at taking in state cash - who is monitoring their added value ?
    There are numerous league tables comparing universities internationally. Britain's universities always do remarkably well.
    Oxbridge certainly does well.

    In other news if you include Eton and Harrow, our education system is the best in the world.

    No, it's many more than Oxbridge. There has been a decline over recent years, but even now our universities generally rank very highly in international tables - second only to the Americans, I believe.

    I don;t think anyone's worrying about Red brick/Russell group Uni's. It's the former polys and the like which it's questionable how well they are operating and how much value they provide.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 18,066
    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Toby Young's essential problem was that he was entirely unqualified for the job. He would have been able to ride out the media storm if he had something to offer. But he didn't.

    Yes - the last thing Universities need is someone outside the academia bubble representing the consumers of their product - the prospective students.

    They should queue up to hand over £9k a year and take what they are given.

    Toby Young has absolutely no qualification to perform that role. Other than being chums with the family of the relevant minister. So his Neanderthal views assumed disproportionate importance.
    Apart from setting up 3 excellent schools - yeah what would he know about what pupils and parents want from education..
    Universities are one part of this country that function pretty well by any objective measure. It is hard to see why the government should wish to let their unqualified chums meddle with them.
    Are they ? They seem quite effective at taking in state cash - who is monitoring their added value ?
    There are numerous league tables comparing universities internationally. Britain's universities always do remarkably well.
    Oxbridge certainly does well.

    In other news if you include Eton and Harrow, our education system is the best in the world.
    What's impressive about Britain's universities is the strength in depth. Take this list:

    https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2018

    The UK has 4 in the top 10, 6 in the top 25, 9 in the top 50 and 16 in the top 100 worldwide.

    Or this one, where the UK has 12 in the top 100:

    https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/2018/world-ranking#!/page/3/length/25/sort_by/rank/sort_order/asc/cols/stats

    Only braindead ideologues would want to upend this type of success.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,926

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Hope he's not walking. That usually takes him months.
    A good reason why he should be PM. ;)

    After all, it's not as if we've had a PM who loves walking who's been a failure, is it?

    Ahem.
    Maybe she didn't walk far enough. There are a few piers and planks she could have gone further on for a start.
    I'm starting to wonder if Theresa May is actually Sideshow Bob. It certainly sums up her governing style ...

    Its the turned down lips, isn't it? Uncanny.
  • midwintermidwinter Posts: 1,064
    TGOHF said:

    murali_s said:

    Though there are issues with the education system in this country, the biggest problem is educational aspiration - it's a culture thing. Until the culture changes, WWC children in particular will continue to underperform. It's that simple...

    I agree with murali shock...

    Goes beyond education though - the fetishisation of being "working class" that Labour encourage is a major barrier.


    Not to mention the perception in many WWC areas that schools in London and areas of high migration receive significantly higher levels of funding.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 1,928
    edited January 9

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Toby Young's essential problem was that he was entirely unqualified for the job. He would have been able to ride out the media storm if he had something to offer. But he didn't.

    Yes - the last thing Universities need is someone outside the academia bubble representing the consumers of their product - the prospective students.

    They should queue up to hand over £9k a year and take what they are given.

    Toby Young has absolutely no qualification to perform that role. Other than being chums with the family of the relevant minister. So his Neanderthal views assumed disproportionate importance.
    Apart from setting up 3 excellent schools - yeah what would he know about what pupils and parents want from education..
    Universities are one part of this country that function pretty well by any objective measure. It is hard to see why the government should wish to let their unqualified chums meddle with them.
    Are they ? They seem quite effective at taking in state cash - who is monitoring their added value ?
    There are numerous league tables comparing universities internationally. Britain's universities always do remarkably well.
    Oxbridge certainly does well.

    In other news if you include Eton and Harrow, our education system is the best in the world.

    No, it's many more than Oxbridge. There has been a decline over recent years, but even now our universities generally rank very highly in international tables - second only to the Americans, I believe.

    UCL, Imperial, Bristol Edinburgh and Manchester all do well on academic rankings. In a post-EU world this is a success that we need to be running with, although a lot of it depends on those pesky foreigners...

    https://www.timeshighereducation.com/student/news/shanghai-ranking-academic-ranking-world-universities-2016-results-announced

    What is amazing is the number of US universities in the top 50.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 26,236
    Mr Verhofstadt has been opining again:

  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 20,168
    Cyclefree said:

    I feel a touch of sympathy for Toby Young, as the man was clearly trying to reinvent himself as a philanthropist. Nevertheless, if he had any feeling for politics at all, he would have known that his previous manifestation as smart-arse PC taunter extraordinaire was bound to cause trouble. I suspect he spends all his time with his right-wing friends and has little understanding of real-world sensibilities. He should have got out more.

    I pretty much agree. There's a tendancy (see SeanT and Boris as prime examples) for writers on the right to push the envelope and be risque to show their cleverness and wordplay. Whilst it makes their writing colourful and entertaining, it can clearly backfire.
    The trouble with Toby Young's writing is that he was not really particularly witty or insightful, ce

    Take TY's comment about poor children in Africa. Pointing out the hypocrisy of those emoting about poverty while doing nothing is a legitimate point to make. But the audience member at a Bono concert who, when Bono announced on stage, that "Every time I clap an African child dies from hunger", shouted back: "Well, stop bloody clapping then!" punctured Bono's pretentiousness rather more wittily than Young's stupid comment.
    I actually know Toby Young pretty well. I've been to a few parties with him. And partied hard.

    Your remarks on his writing are too harsh. He's a good, insightful journalist, and his memoir, How To Lose Friends And Alienate People, was seriously funny, acute and poignant.

    Otherwise, yeah. He should have realised that his online record and real-life backstory was a bit too lairy and laddish for such a boring-but-quite-serious quangocratic job. He was bound to get Twitchforked.

    Giles Coren got it right recently when he said when you choose to be a cowboy bank robber in your youth, with all the fun that entails, you can't really expect to suddenly morph into sheriff in your middle age, especially not in the era of the Twittermob.

    He would, perhaps, have been fine as a backroom advisor for media or something.

    In other news, TMay is still seriously crap.


  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 40,084
    Mr. Divvie, that's my point.

    If you want an equal share of the good stuff but not an equal share of the bad, you don't want equality, you want preference and privilege.

    The proportion of prisoners from ethnic minorities significantly exceeds the percentage they comprise of the general population. This is often decried as indicative of racism of some variety in the justice system. A higher proportion (and therefore more disproportionate percentage) of doctors comes from ethnic minorities. Nobody claims that's due to anti-white discrimination.

    You have to look at both ends of the scale. You can't complain you're not getting enough cake if you refuse to ever work in the kitchen.

    As an aside, above average male representation at the top and bottom ends actually fits in with an interesting theory that men are just more variable than women (ie more likely to be both awful and fantastic) because of evolution, specifically men are less likely to leave offspring but have a chance of a genetic jackpot. That's why, the theory goes, prisons and Darwin Awards are full of men, but so are the ranks of geniuses.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 40,084
    As an aside, the Great Moghal Emperor Akbar once reshuffled his cousin out of a window. It was a genuine case of being defenestrated.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 18,066
    He's right as well.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 10,735
    edited January 9
    Scotlands NHS figures are worst recorded with large increase in those not seen in the four hour target.Poor figures and Sturgeon has apologised.

    Add in the failure of Wales NHS it is clear that the NHS throughout the UK needs a cross party working group to formulate plans on health and social care and funding for the next 10 years as Jeremy Hunt alluded to earlier in the week
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,890
    Is there any way the Government could fuck up this reshuffle further?

    Stand by, the "digital" team is on the case...

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,890
    MaxPB said:

    Well there's one positive about all of this, we know for sure that 2022 will have a different Tory leader. May will never be able to hang on now. She's created too many enemies and botched everything up one too many times.

    This Tweet has aged particularly well...

  • As an aside, the Great Moghal Emperor Akbar once reshuffled his cousin out of a window. It was a genuine case of being defenestrated.

    I enjoyed the reshuffles of Henry VIII.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,890
    Is this the only reason he was moved?

    @SkyNewsBreak: Justice Secretary David Gauke will issue a ministerial statement about the transparency of the Parole Board and the support offered to victims following the release of convicted rapist John Worboys
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 270
    Our red brick/Russell Group universities are very good. The problem is the former polytehnics and the middling ones. We have no equivalent to the German technical schools or the Indian coding colleges. That is going to be a major issue as the world loses so many jobs in automatable tasks, which form the bulk of lower middle class and upper working class jobs. We need to train people for more technical skills and also on much-derided social/management skills.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 40,084
    Mr. Eagles, he certainly gave plenty of people the chop.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 17,291
    Scott_P said:

    MaxPB said:

    Well there's one positive about all of this, we know for sure that 2022 will have a different Tory leader. May will never be able to hang on now. She's created too many enemies and botched everything up one too many times.

    This Tweet has aged particularly well...

    What it shows is that the commentariat had decided in advance it would be a shambles. Actually it was OK, with some Twitter hiccups and a couple of ministers refusing offers of jobs, which always happens. Overall it seems a pretty reasonable reshuffle within the very limited room the PM has for manoeuvre.

    Of course, nothing matches the all-time Gold Standard Shambles of Corbyn's shadow cabinet reshuffle before the election.
  • Mr. Eagles, he certainly gave plenty of people the chop.

    They were the lucky ones, some were burned alive.
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 20,168

    He's right as well.
    What a lot of shite.

    The EU was built to guarantee freedom, democracy and the rule of law??? Democracy??

    Is that why they wrote a Constitution, got it rejected in two referendums, in France and Holland, then decided to simply rename the Constitution a Treaty, and smuggle it past the people, thus explicitly AVOIDING and NEGATING democracy? Is that the same repulsive EU that Guy V is wanking on about?

    Let's see what the writer of the Constitution, Giscard d'Estaign, said himself:

    "In an open letter to the French newspaper Le Monde, Mr D'Estaing sought to clarify his view on the differences - if any - between two treaties.

    "Looking at the content," he wrote "the result is that the institutional proposals of the constitutional treaty….are found complete in the Lisbon Treaty, only in a different order and inserted in former treaties.."

    He made clear that the purpose of the rewritten Treaty (now called the Lisbon Treaty) was to make people think the new version did not merit being put to the people in referendums.

    "Above all, it is to avoid having referendums thanks to the fact that the articles are spread out and constitutional vocabulary has been removed," he added."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1567804/Giscard-EU-Treaty-is-the-constitution-rewritten.html

    Or, as the Belgian Foreign Minister put it, more succinctly:

    "The aim of the Constitutional Treaty was to be more readable; the aim of this treaty is to be unreadable … The Constitution aimed to be clear, whereas this treaty had to be unclear. It is a success."

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,628
    I'm liking the message the government is sending out with this reshuffle. We want to promote and encourage working class and disadvantaged people into positions of power. And once they are there, we want to sack them.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 7,510
    TOPPING said:

    I'm liking the message the government is sending out with this reshuffle. We want to promote and encourage working class and disadvantaged people into positions of power. And once they are there, we want to sack them.

    I agree, going to a comp is a disadvantage.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,926
    Will Hutton makes Toby Young look self aware and connected to reality. He says: "Labour – internationalist, pro-European and profoundly anti-racist – should find the courage to speak out, and insist that in times like these to leave the EU is folly. The time for temporising is over."

    Presumably he does not bother with what Corbyn says, or anti-Semitism, or McDonnell's economic plans. Or, of course, the democratic wishes of the British people. The argument that the collapse of parts of the EU into illiberal, undemocratic nationalism is a reason for staying in does not suggest much in the way of rationality either.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,890
    I take issue with the word brilliant...

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,628
    DavidL said:

    Will Hutton makes Toby Young look self aware and connected to reality. He says: "Labour – internationalist, pro-European and profoundly anti-racist – should find the courage to speak out, and insist that in times like these to leave the EU is folly. The time for temporising is over."

    Presumably he does not bother with what Corbyn says, or anti-Semitism, or McDonnell's economic plans. Or, of course, the democratic wishes of the British people. The argument that the collapse of parts of the EU into illiberal, undemocratic nationalism is a reason for staying in does not suggest much in the way of rationality either.
    Socialism and Brexit.

    Two fantastic political ideas, if only they were done right.
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 20,168
    DavidL said:

    Will Hutton makes Toby Young look self aware and connected to reality. He says: "Labour – internationalist, pro-European and profoundly anti-racist – should find the courage to speak out, and insist that in times like these to leave the EU is folly. The time for temporising is over."

    Presumably he does not bother with what Corbyn says, or anti-Semitism, or McDonnell's economic plans. Or, of course, the democratic wishes of the British people. The argument that the collapse of parts of the EU into illiberal, undemocratic nationalism is a reason for staying in does not suggest much in the way of rationality either.
    Hutton has Brexychosis. Like Grayling, Adonis and co. Literally driven nuts by Brexit.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 10,622

    Scotlands NHS figures are worst recorded with large increase in those not seen in the four hour target.Poor figures and Sturgeon has apologised.

    Add in the failure of Wales NHS it is clear that the NHS throughout the UK needs a cross party working group to formulate plans on health and social care and funding for the next 10 years as Jeremy Hunt alluded to earlier in the week

    Are they worse than England's?

    The Scottish government has been progressing with health & social care integration for several years now. I'm sure they'd be happy to advise Jeremy in that area.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 25,278

    Scott_P said:

    MaxPB said:

    Well there's one positive about all of this, we know for sure that 2022 will have a different Tory leader. May will never be able to hang on now. She's created too many enemies and botched everything up one too many times.

    This Tweet has aged particularly well...

    What it shows is that the commentariat had decided in advance it would be a shambles. Actually it was OK, with some Twitter hiccups and a couple of ministers refusing offers of jobs, which always happens. Overall it seems a pretty reasonable reshuffle within the very limited room the PM has for manoeuvre.

    Of course, nothing matches the all-time Gold Standard Shambles of Corbyn's shadow cabinet reshuffle before the election.

    There are no American tanks in Baghdad ...

  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 352
    edited January 9

    He's right as well.
    Democracy seems to be doing what the EU wants - not whaf the democratically elected governments of Poland and Hungary want? The ruling Polish and Hungarian parties have massive poll leads - so the locals don't seem too unhappy

    I also dare say people feel a lot safer walking the streets of Warsaw or Budapest these days than many parts of Brussels. And they want to keep it that way! Perhaps Verhofstadt ought to be worried about the freedom and Rights of many of his own people living in the sort of poorer areas he never visits to walk the streets safely at night?

    As the Irish, French and Dutch know the EU only likes democracy when the people vote the right way. If they don't they are ignored or asked to keep voting until they vote the right way.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 19,519

    Mr. Eagles, he certainly gave plenty of people the chop.

    They were the lucky ones, some were burned alive.
    They were also the lucky ones. Some were boiled, dismembered, or hung in chains to die of starvation.

    Henry VIII was simply the most evil man ever to rule this country.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,628
    brendan16 said:

    He's right as well.
    Democracy seems to be doing what the EU wants - not whaf the democratically elected governments of Poland and Hungary want? The ruling Polish and Hungarian parties have massive poll leads - so the locals don't seem too unhappy, I also dare say people feel a lot safer walking the streets of Warsaw or Budapest these days than many parts of Brussels. And they want to keep it that way!

    As the Irish, French and Dutch know the EU only likes democracy when the people vote the right way. If they don't they are ignored or asked to keep voting until they vote the right way.
    I would love to wear a t-shirt, shorts and flip-flops to my Club but they won't allow it. Damn them. Not cancelling the direct debit, that said.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 19,519
    DavidL said:

    Will Hutton makes Toby Young look self aware and connected to reality. He says: "Labour – internationalist, pro-European and profoundly anti-racist – should find the courage to speak out, and insist that in times like these to leave the EU is folly. The time for temporising is over."

    Presumably he does not bother with what Corbyn says, or anti-Semitism, or McDonnell's economic plans. Or, of course, the democratic wishes of the British people. The argument that the collapse of parts of the EU into illiberal, undemocratic nationalism is a reason for staying in does not suggest much in the way of rationality either.
    The behaviour of the Polish government doesn't seem much different from the behaviour of a new US administration, appointing its supporters to key positions, and the Courts. Whether Verhofstadt likes it or not, the governments of Poland and Hungary are popular with their voters.
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 20,168
    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Eagles, he certainly gave plenty of people the chop.

    They were the lucky ones, some were burned alive.
    They were also the lucky ones. Some were boiled, dismembered, or hung in chains to die of starvation.

    Henry VIII was simply the most evil man ever to rule this country.
    I think William the Bastard, AKA the Conqueror, who left entire parts of the nation unpeopled for centuries, following the Harrying of the North, must take that title.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 40,084
    Mr. F, don't know much of Henry VIII beyond the basics, but was he really worse than John?
  • Scott_P said:
    'Minister who sent woman aide to buy sex toy is shafted'

    George Osborne is a genius.

    That's the sort of line you'd expect from well me.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 7,196

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Toby Young's essential problem was that he was entirely unqualified for the job. He would have been able to ride out the media storm if he had something to offer. But he didn't.

    Yes - the last thing Universities need is someone outside the academia bubble representing the consumers of their product - the prospective students.

    They should queue up to hand over £9k a year and take what they are given.

    Toby Young has absolutely no qualification to perform that role. Other than being chums with the family of the relevant minister. So his Neanderthal views assumed disproportionate importance.
    Apart from setting up 3 excellent schools - yeah what would he know about what pupils and parents want from education..
    Universities are one part of this country that function pretty well by any objective measure. It is hard to see why the government should wish to let their unqualified chums meddle with them.
    Are they ? They seem quite effective at taking in state cash - who is monitoring their added value ?
    There are numerous league tables comparing universities internationally. Britain's universities always do remarkably well.
    Oxbridge certainly does well.

    In other news if you include Eton and Harrow, our education system is the best in the world.

    No, it's many more than Oxbridge. There has been a decline over recent years, but even now our universities generally rank very highly in international tables - second only to the Americans, I believe.

    I don;t think anyone's worrying about Red brick/Russell group Uni's. It's the former polys and the like which it's questionable how well they are operating and how much value they provide.
    Added value is always a problem but often outside the universities' own remit. For instance, if ACME plc only recruits from Oxbridge and Bristol then that places Sunderland graduates who want to work there at a disadvantage.

    On research, the extra cash in the system means that the dance department at the University of Brighton can hire a Nobel Prize winner. Research excellence is more spread out than people think.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 943
    edited January 9

    Scott_P said:

    MaxPB said:

    Well there's one positive about all of this, we know for sure that 2022 will have a different Tory leader. May will never be able to hang on now. She's created too many enemies and botched everything up one too many times.

    This Tweet has aged particularly well...

    What it shows is that the commentariat had decided in advance it would be a shambles. Actually it was OK, with some Twitter hiccups and a couple of ministers refusing offers of jobs, which always happens. Overall it seems a pretty reasonable reshuffle within the very limited room the PM has for manoeuvre.

    Of course, nothing matches the all-time Gold Standard Shambles of Corbyn's shadow cabinet reshuffle before the election.
    Mr Nabavi, please remind me, whose A**e is sitting on the leather of the Prime Ministers Chair? When, and, more accurately, if, the electorate decide that Corbyn should be Prime Minister then you may call names and comment on back history, or are you just getting in some practice for the results of the oncoming General Election?

    edited for missing some words
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 26,236

    He's right as well.
    What’s revealing is that the U.K. had freedom, democracy and rule of law well before there was an EU - and it appears does not feel it needs an EU to guarantee these things.....
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 40,084
    Mr. T, again, I'm not too familiar with that period, but if people want a 1066 book then Marc Morris' paperback on Amazon is just £3 at the moment.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 8,731
    SeanT said:

    DavidL said:

    Will Hutton makes Toby Young look self aware and connected to reality. He says: "Labour – internationalist, pro-European and profoundly anti-racist – should find the courage to speak out, and insist that in times like these to leave the EU is folly. The time for temporising is over."

    Presumably he does not bother with what Corbyn says, or anti-Semitism, or McDonnell's economic plans. Or, of course, the democratic wishes of the British people. The argument that the collapse of parts of the EU into illiberal, undemocratic nationalism is a reason for staying in does not suggest much in the way of rationality either.
    Hutton has Brexychosis. Like Grayling, Adonis and co. Literally driven nuts by Brexit.
    There is surely a top political thriller to be written about such twittery?
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,143
    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Eagles, he certainly gave plenty of people the chop.

    They were the lucky ones, some were burned alive.
    They were also the lucky ones. Some were boiled, dismembered, or hung in chains to die of starvation.

    Henry VIII was simply the most evil man ever to rule this country.
    I think William the Bastard, AKA the Conqueror, who left entire parts of the nation unpeopled for centuries, following the Harrying of the North, must take that title.
    To say nothing of chopping off your hands and feet if you were tactless enough to remind him who his grandfather was.
  • Mr. F, don't know much of Henry VIII beyond the basics, but was he really worse than John?

    He was worse than ISIS, he destroyed so many religious buildings and artefacts.

    He was worse than Gordon Brown when it came to the nation's finances.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 19,519
    edited January 9

    Mr. F, don't know much of Henry VIII beyond the basics, but was he really worse than John?

    Actually, yes, John probably was worse.

    There was also Svein Forkbeard (King of England in 1014) who liked hanging men up by their testicles.
  • He's right as well.
    What’s revealing is that the U.K. had freedom, democracy and rule of law well before there was an EU - and it appears does not feel it needs an EU to guarantee these things.....
    We forget we've never had things like Nazism, Fascism, and Communism, a lot of Europe has one of the above in the recent past.
  • PeterMannionPeterMannion Posts: 210
    SeanT said:

    DavidL said:

    Will Hutton makes Toby Young look self aware and connected to reality. He says: "Labour – internationalist, pro-European and profoundly anti-racist – should find the courage to speak out, and insist that in times like these to leave the EU is folly. The time for temporising is over."

    Presumably he does not bother with what Corbyn says, or anti-Semitism, or McDonnell's economic plans. Or, of course, the democratic wishes of the British people. The argument that the collapse of parts of the EU into illiberal, undemocratic nationalism is a reason for staying in does not suggest much in the way of rationality either.
    Hutton has Brexychosis. Like Grayling, Adonis and co. Literally driven nuts by Brexit.
    Literally figurative?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,890
    sokoIowski: Poland - government reshuffle:

    Minister of Foreign Affairs, Witold Waszczykowski - dismissed

    Minister of Defence, Antoni Macierewicz - dismissed

    Minister of Environment, Jan Szyszko - dismissed

    Minister of Health, Konstanty Radziwiłł - dismissed
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,926
    I can't help feeling that Justine Greening thought she would be left in post if she simply said no, as so many others had. May obviously felt that she could not back down again without looking (even more) ridiculous.

    I said at the weekend that an attempt to have a significant reshuffle could be fatal for Mrs May. She simply does not have the power to make these kinds of decisions and is there on the tolerance of many different sections of her party, any one of which is larger than her majority.

    The Brexit negotiations are undoubtedly a complicating factor forcing people to hold their hands at the moment but the end has been brought closer by this farce. Her political incompetence is extraordinary for someone who held such senior office for so long before becoming PM.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,628

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Eagles, he certainly gave plenty of people the chop.

    They were the lucky ones, some were burned alive.
    They were also the lucky ones. Some were boiled, dismembered, or hung in chains to die of starvation.

    Henry VIII was simply the most evil man ever to rule this country.
    I think William the Bastard, AKA the Conqueror, who left entire parts of the nation unpeopled for centuries, following the Harrying of the North, must take that title.
    To say nothing of chopping off your hands and feet if you were tactless enough to remind him who his grandfather was.
    I don't think William had the monopoly on that kind of behaviour - most monarchs of the time were similarly ruthless - Henry I had his grandchildren's eyes put out and nose cut off as one of many typical actions of the day.
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 20,168

    He's right as well.
    What’s revealing is that the U.K. had freedom, democracy and rule of law well before there was an EU - and it appears does not feel it needs an EU to guarantee these things.....
    We forget we've never had things like Nazism, Fascism, and Communism, a lot of Europe has one of the above in the recent past.
    Hence, Brexit, part 529
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 293
    @MikeSmithson – looking forward to the Oprah thread. I dare members of all political shades have had more than enough of the hapless May and the odious Young.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,926

    Mr. F, don't know much of Henry VIII beyond the basics, but was he really worse than John?

    He was worse than ISIS, he destroyed so many religious buildings and artefacts.

    He was worse than Gordon Brown when it came to the nation's finances.
    Oh harsh.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 25,278
    brendan16 said:

    He's right as well.
    Democracy seems to be doing what the EU wants - not whaf the democratically elected governments of Poland and Hungary want? The ruling Polish and Hungarian parties have massive poll leads - so the locals don't seem too unhappy

    I also dare say people feel a lot safer walking the streets of Warsaw or Budapest these days than many parts of Brussels. And they want to keep it that way! Perhaps Verhofstadt ought to be worried about the freedom and Rights of many of his own people living in the sort of poorer areas he never visits to walk the streets safely at night?

    As the Irish, French and Dutch know the EU only likes democracy when the people vote the right way. If they don't they are ignored or asked to keep voting until they vote the right way.

    We don't want to play by the EU's rules, so we are leaving. Poland and Hungary both have exactly the same option. If they decide to remain, they are subject to the rules. It's not brain surgery.

  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 20,168
    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Eagles, he certainly gave plenty of people the chop.

    They were the lucky ones, some were burned alive.
    They were also the lucky ones. Some were boiled, dismembered, or hung in chains to die of starvation.

    Henry VIII was simply the most evil man ever to rule this country.
    I think William the Bastard, AKA the Conqueror, who left entire parts of the nation unpeopled for centuries, following the Harrying of the North, must take that title.
    To say nothing of chopping off your hands and feet if you were tactless enough to remind him who his grandfather was.
    I don't think William had the monopoly on that kind of behaviour - most monarchs of the time were similarly ruthless - Henry I had his grandchildren's eyes put out and nose cut off as one of many typical actions of the day.
    Bloody Mary was pretty brutal, too.
  • DavidL said:

    I can't help feeling that Justine Greening thought she would be left in post if she simply said no, as so many others had. May obviously felt that she could not back down again without looking (even more) ridiculous.

    I said at the weekend that an attempt to have a significant reshuffle could be fatal for Mrs May. She simply does not have the power to make these kinds of decisions and is there on the tolerance of many different sections of her party, any one of which is larger than her majority.

    The Brexit negotiations are undoubtedly a complicating factor forcing people to hold their hands at the moment but the end has been brought closer by this farce. Her political incompetence is extraordinary for someone who held such senior office for so long before becoming PM.

    According to the papers Mrs May has not liked then tone of Justine Greening, nor the fact that Greening was proven right about grammar schools and made Nick Timothy look like an idiot.

    From this morning's Red Box email.

    It had been briefed that Justine Greening's hold on the role of education secretary was in doubt, but after other ministers had refused to budge, she did the same. Unlike the others, Theresa May deployed her renowned skills of compromise, flexibility and guile, and sacked her.

    The PM had wanted to shift Greening to work and pensions, claiming she could continue her work on improving social mobility. This might have worked if the reshuffle had been the big wide-ranging affair we had been led by No 10 to expect.

    Instead, Greening dug her heels in, laid out her achievements at education and more she wanted to do. May made clear it was a "take or leave it" offer. Greening left it. The job went to Damian Hinds, who is well liked, and good to see a straight white man finally get a break.

    So the first openly gay woman in cabinet and the first state-educated education secretary returns to the backbenches: because what the prime minister really needs is another Remainer with a grievance. Greening has made clear she will be "representing" her community, which happened to vote something like 70 per cent in favour of Remain. A rebel is born.

    Friends insist she had done a "bloody good job" in education and did not want to be just shunted around Whitehall. They also suspect the hand of Nick Timothy, May's former chief of staff, who has used a number of articles to single out Greening for criticism. There were whispers of Greening getting "too close" to teaching unions (perhaps no bad thing when only 8 per cent of teachers voted Tory last year) and speaking up too much in cabinet.

    "A number of people who have been disloyal and ineffective have been allowed to stay in their roles," one senior Tory MP told me last night. "Why is Justine the only one to go? Because the PM has Nick Timothy whispering in her ear."
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 40,084
    Mr. F, glad to hear it. Reading a biography of John is a weird thing. It's the opposite of an Alexander bio (which leaves one feeling a bit rubbish) but also crammed with England losing to France, which isn't great.

    Mr. Eagles, John was better with finances but also a serial traitor, extortionist, failure in war and personally cruel.

    Mr. Eagles (2), well, *we* here don't forget that. Others do. And the EU forgets that too.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 17,291

    Scott_P said:
    'Minister who sent woman aide to buy sex toy is shafted'

    George Osborne is a genius.

    That's the sort of line you'd expect from well me.
    Tut, that's very bad journalism. It was two sex toys, not one.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 19,519
    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Eagles, he certainly gave plenty of people the chop.

    They were the lucky ones, some were burned alive.
    They were also the lucky ones. Some were boiled, dismembered, or hung in chains to die of starvation.

    Henry VIII was simply the most evil man ever to rule this country.
    I think William the Bastard, AKA the Conqueror, who left entire parts of the nation unpeopled for centuries, following the Harrying of the North, must take that title.
    To say nothing of chopping off your hands and feet if you were tactless enough to remind him who his grandfather was.
    I don't think William had the monopoly on that kind of behaviour - most monarchs of the time were similarly ruthless - Henry I had his grandchildren's eyes put out and nose cut off as one of many typical actions of the day.
    Henry I was praised at the time for his leniency towards a corrupt servant - the man was blinded and castrated, rather than being executed.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 5,721
    SeanT said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Eagles, he certainly gave plenty of people the chop.

    They were the lucky ones, some were burned alive.
    They were also the lucky ones. Some were boiled, dismembered, or hung in chains to die of starvation.

    Henry VIII was simply the most evil man ever to rule this country.
    I think William the Bastard, AKA the Conqueror, who left entire parts of the nation unpeopled for centuries, following the Harrying of the North, must take that title.
    To say nothing of chopping off your hands and feet if you were tactless enough to remind him who his grandfather was.
    I don't think William had the monopoly on that kind of behaviour - most monarchs of the time were similarly ruthless - Henry I had his grandchildren's eyes put out and nose cut off as one of many typical actions of the day.
    Bloody Mary was pretty brutal, too.
    You basically had to be to surivive. Kill or be killed.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 8,849
    So when will the electoral boundaries be revised, just in time for the 22nd anniversary of the last revision?
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,143
    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Eagles, he certainly gave plenty of people the chop.

    They were the lucky ones, some were burned alive.
    They were also the lucky ones. Some were boiled, dismembered, or hung in chains to die of starvation.

    Henry VIII was simply the most evil man ever to rule this country.
    I think William the Bastard, AKA the Conqueror, who left entire parts of the nation unpeopled for centuries, following the Harrying of the North, must take that title.
    To say nothing of chopping off your hands and feet if you were tactless enough to remind him who his grandfather was.
    I don't think William had the monopoly on that kind of behaviour - most monarchs of the time were similarly ruthless - Henry I had his grandchildren's eyes put out and nose cut off as one of many typical actions of the day.
    Conversely Richard the Lionheart pardoned the crossbowman who mortally wounded him. According to some accounts after the king died he was tortured to death anyway, but it was a nice gesture.
  • TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Eagles, he certainly gave plenty of people the chop.

    They were the lucky ones, some were burned alive.
    They were also the lucky ones. Some were boiled, dismembered, or hung in chains to die of starvation.

    Henry VIII was simply the most evil man ever to rule this country.
    I think William the Bastard, AKA the Conqueror, who left entire parts of the nation unpeopled for centuries, following the Harrying of the North, must take that title.
    To say nothing of chopping off your hands and feet if you were tactless enough to remind him who his grandfather was.
    I don't think William had the monopoly on that kind of behaviour - most monarchs of the time were similarly ruthless - Henry I had his grandchildren's eyes put out and nose cut off as one of many typical actions of the day.
    So our Queen isn't too bad, she's only had Diana, Princess of Wales executed.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 17,291
    edited January 9
    OchEye said:

    Mr Nabavi, please remind me, whose A**e is sitting on the leather of the Prime Ministers Chair? When, and, more accurately, if, the electorate decide that Corbyn should be Prime Minister then you may call names and comment on back history, or are you just getting in some practice for the results of the oncoming General Election?

    edited for missing some words

    You need to edit it again if you want anyone to understand what you're going on about.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,926

    SeanT said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Eagles, he certainly gave plenty of people the chop.

    They were the lucky ones, some were burned alive.
    They were also the lucky ones. Some were boiled, dismembered, or hung in chains to die of starvation.

    Henry VIII was simply the most evil man ever to rule this country.
    I think William the Bastard, AKA the Conqueror, who left entire parts of the nation unpeopled for centuries, following the Harrying of the North, must take that title.
    To say nothing of chopping off your hands and feet if you were tactless enough to remind him who his grandfather was.
    I don't think William had the monopoly on that kind of behaviour - most monarchs of the time were similarly ruthless - Henry I had his grandchildren's eyes put out and nose cut off as one of many typical actions of the day.
    Bloody Mary was pretty brutal, too.
    You basically had to be to surivive. Kill or be killed.
    I am sure that there is a tag line to GOT to a similar effect. Brutal times and we are fortunate not to have lived in them. We should perhaps reflect that today incompetent and inadequate rulers mainly just cost us money.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,692
    edited January 9
    Interesting that there is a big reshuffle underway in Poland as well according to the Guardian

    Defence and Foreign Secretaries sacked along with Health, Environment and Infrastructure Ministers.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 18,066
    brendan16 said:

    He's right as well.
    Democracy seems to be doing what the EU wants - not whaf the democratically elected governments of Poland and Hungary want? The ruling Polish and Hungarian parties have massive poll leads - so the locals don't seem too unhappy, I also dare say people feel a lot safer walking the streets of Warsaw or Budapest these days than many parts of Brussels. And they want to keep it that way! Perhaps Verhofstadt ought to be worried about the freedom and Rights of many of his own people to walk the streets safely at night?

    As the Irish, French and Dutch know the EU only likes democracy when the people vote the right way. If they don't they are ignored or asked to keep voting until they vote the right way.
    I can tell you from experience that Hungarian trains don't run on time, which seems to be the type of defence that you are offering for their government.

    The Hungarian government is lacking any kind of coherent opposition. In the meantime, it controls the media with a grip that Silvio Berlusconi would have envied: Viktor Orban boasts of leading an illiberal democracy. He's half right. He will be re-elected later this year, probably with the two thirds majority required to alter the constitution. Two years after the event, Brexiters still have a meltdown about a factual document about the EU referendum that the government issued in advance. But they are entirely comfortable supporting governments with a vice-like grip on the local media.

    Any independent voices are to be stifled. So George Soros, who founded the Central European University following the fall of Communism, is a favourite bogeyman (curiously, he's hated by closet racist kippers and Trump supporters too - he must be doing something right). The government has tried to close the university down.

    And Viktor Orban's family is unaccountably wealthy: the Hungarians have the word "stroman" which I think is directly lifted from the English words "straw man", which is much used for Viktor's friends who have acquired a remarkable amount of property for his family. This, more than anything else, seems to be motivating his policies.

    So young people move away, seeing better prospects elsewhere. Hungary offers the prospect of what Britain may well turn into post-Brexit - a population fearful of outsiders whose brightest and best seek their fortunes abroad.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 293

    DavidL said:

    SNIP

    Friends insist she had done a "bloody good job" in education and did not want to be just shunted around Whitehall. They also suspect the hand of Nick Timothy, May's former chief of staff, who has used a number of articles to single out Greening for criticism. There were whispers of Greening getting "too close" to teaching unions (perhaps no bad thing when only 8 per cent of teachers voted Tory last year) and speaking up too much in cabinet.

    "A number of people who have been disloyal and ineffective have been allowed to stay in their roles," one senior Tory MP told me last night. "Why is Justine the only one to go? Because the PM has Nick Timothy whispering in her ear."

    Sheer unadulterated bitchiness did for Justine (one of the finest cabinet members). May didn't like her speaking out, and offered her the poisoned chalice of DWP. Absolutely pathetic.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 40,084
    Didn't Henry I imprison for decades, rather than murder, his older brother (Robert, I think his name was)?

    Amongst the nobility there was generally more mercy than might be supposed in the early Middle Ages. It's why John killing his own nephew was so shocking. His grandson, Prince Edward (later Edward I) slew a huge number of men of note at the Battle of... Evesham (I think) which was harsh by standards of the day but successfully ended the Montfort rebellion.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 293

    SeanT said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Eagles, he certainly gave plenty of people the chop.

    They were the lucky ones, some were burned alive.
    They were also the lucky ones. Some were boiled, dismembered, or hung in chains to die of starvation.

    Henry VIII was simply the most evil man ever to rule this country.
    I think William the Bastard, AKA the Conqueror, who left entire parts of the nation unpeopled for centuries, following the Harrying of the North, must take that title.
    To say nothing of chopping off your hands and feet if you were tactless enough to remind him who his grandfather was.
    I don't think William had the monopoly on that kind of behaviour - most monarchs of the time were similarly ruthless - Henry I had his grandchildren's eyes put out and nose cut off as one of many typical actions of the day.
    Bloody Mary was pretty brutal, too.
    You basically had to be to surivive. Kill or be killed.
    A fair analysis of today's Conservative government.
  • TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Eagles, he certainly gave plenty of people the chop.

    They were the lucky ones, some were burned alive.
    They were also the lucky ones. Some were boiled, dismembered, or hung in chains to die of starvation.

    Henry VIII was simply the most evil man ever to rule this country.
    I think William the Bastard, AKA the Conqueror, who left entire parts of the nation unpeopled for centuries, following the Harrying of the North, must take that title.
    To say nothing of chopping off your hands and feet if you were tactless enough to remind him who his grandfather was.
    I don't think William had the monopoly on that kind of behaviour - most monarchs of the time were similarly ruthless - Henry I had his grandchildren's eyes put out and nose cut off as one of many typical actions of the day.
    So our Queen isn't too bad, she's only had Diana, Princess of Wales executed.
    Thought that was the DofE (allegedly)
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 19,519

    DavidL said:

    I can't help feeling that Justine Greening thought she would be left in post if she simply said no, as so many others had. May obviously felt that she could not back down again without looking (even more) ridiculous.

    I s

    According to the papers Mrs May has not liked then tone of Justine Greening, nor the fact that Greening was proven right about grammar schools and made Nick Timothy look like an idiot.

    From this morning's Red Box email.

    It had been briefed that Justine Greening's hold on the role of education secretary was in doubt, but after other ministers had refused to budge, she did the same. Unlike the others, Theresa May deployed her renowned skills of compromise, flexibility and guile, and sacked her.

    The PM had wanted to shift Greening to work and pensions, claiming she could continue her work on improving social mobility. This might have worked if the reshuffle had been the big wide-ranging affair we had been led by No 10 to expect.

    Instead, Greening dug her heels in, laid out her achievements at education and more she wanted to do. May made clear it was a "take or leave it" offer. Greening left it. The job went to Damian Hinds, who is well liked, and good to see a straight white man finally get a break.

    So the first openly gay woman in cabinet and the first state-educated education secretary returns to the backbenches: because what the prime minister really needs is another Remainer with a grievance. Greening has made clear she will be "representing" her community, which happened to vote something like 70 per cent in favour of Remain. A rebel is born.

    Friends insist she had done a "bloody good job" in education and did not want to be just shunted around Whitehall. They also suspect the hand of Nick Timothy, May's former chief of staff, who has used a number of articles to single out Greening for criticism. There were whispers of Greening getting "too close" to teaching unions (perhaps no bad thing when only 8 per cent of teachers voted Tory last year) and speaking up too much in cabinet.

    "A number of people who have been disloyal and ineffective have been allowed to stay in their roles," one senior Tory MP told me last night. "Why is Justine the only one to go? Because the PM has Nick Timothy whispering in her ear."
    On the other hand, one can only have limited sympathy for someone who flounces when offered a reasonable Cabinet job. She wasn't being demoted.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 270
    Just to be clear, May leaving cabinet ministers in place is evidence she doesn't have any power, and May sacking people like Greening is evidence she lacks the skills of "compromise and flexibility"?

    I'm not especially a fan of May, but it's very clear most of this board will interpret anything she does in a negative light. They start from the conclusion what she has done is wrong, and then work backwards to interpret the facts to fit that appropriately. Even if such a thought process contradicts the logic of the previous day.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 40,084
    Incidentally, as we're mostly talking about grim things, there's a nice anecdote of William Rufus (son of the Conqueror) angrily berating a servant for buying him shoes that weren't expensive enough for a king :p
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,628
    edited January 9
    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Eagles, he certainly gave plenty of people the chop.

    They were the lucky ones, some were burned alive.
    They were also the lucky ones. Some were boiled, dismembered, or hung in chains to die of starvation.

    Henry VIII was simply the most evil man ever to rule this country.
    I think William the Bastard, AKA the Conqueror, who left entire parts of the nation unpeopled for centuries, following the Harrying of the North, must take that title.
    To say nothing of chopping off your hands and feet if you were tactless enough to remind him who his grandfather was.
    I don't think William had the monopoly on that kind of behaviour - most monarchs of the time were similarly ruthless - Henry I had his grandchildren's eyes put out and nose cut off as one of many typical actions of the day.
    Henry I was praised at the time for his leniency towards a corrupt servant - the man was blinded and castrated, rather than being executed.
    And allowed Luc de Barre to kill himself rather than be killed.

    But them's was the rules back then. No space or longevity for any shrinking violet, as subsequent monarchs found out.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,692
    TOPPING said:

    brendan16 said:

    He's right as well.
    Democracy seems to be doing what the EU wants - not whaf the democratically elected governments of Poland and Hungary want? The ruling Polish and Hungarian parties have massive poll leads - so the locals don't seem too unhappy, I also dare say people feel a lot safer walking the streets of Warsaw or Budapest these days than many parts of Brussels. And they want to keep it that way!

    As the Irish, French and Dutch know the EU only likes democracy when the people vote the right way. If they don't they are ignored or asked to keep voting until they vote the right way.
    I would love to wear a t-shirt, shorts and flip-flops to my Club but they won't allow it. Damn them. Not cancelling the direct debit, that said.
    Except of course these are political decisions being made by the EU, not legal ones.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 19,519

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Eagles, he certainly gave plenty of people the chop.

    They were the lucky ones, some were burned alive.
    They were also the lucky ones. Some were boiled, dismembered, or hung in chains to die of starvation.

    Henry VIII was simply the most evil man ever to rule this country.
    I think William the Bastard, AKA the Conqueror, who left entire parts of the nation unpeopled for centuries, following the Harrying of the North, must take that title.
    To say nothing of chopping off your hands and feet if you were tactless enough to remind him who his grandfather was.
    I don't think William had the monopoly on that kind of behaviour - most monarchs of the time were similarly ruthless - Henry I had his grandchildren's eyes put out and nose cut off as one of many typical actions of the day.
    So our Queen isn't too bad, she's only had Diana, Princess of Wales executed.
    I thought that Kate Middleton arranged the assassination. She's like Cersei.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 17,926

    DavidL said:

    According to the papers Mrs May has not liked then tone of Justine Greening, nor the fact that Greening was proven right about grammar schools and made Nick Timothy look like an idiot.

    From this morning's Red Box email.

    It had been briefed that Justine Greening's hold on the role of education secretary was in doubt, but after other ministers had refused to budge, she did the same. Unlike the others, Theresa May deployed her renowned skills of compromise, flexibility and guile, and sacked her.

    The PM had wanted to shift Greening to work and pensions, claiming she could continue her work on improving social mobility. This might have worked if the reshuffle had been the big wide-ranging affair we had been led by No 10 to expect.

    Instead, Greening dug her heels in, laid out her achievements at education and more she wanted to do. May made clear it was a "take or leave it" offer. Greening left it. The job went to Damian Hinds, who is well liked, and good to see a straight white man finally get a break.

    So the first openly gay woman in cabinet and the first state-educated education secretary returns to the backbenches: because what the prime minister really needs is another Remainer with a grievance. Greening has made clear she will be "representing" her community, which happened to vote something like 70 per cent in favour of Remain. A rebel is born.

    Friends insist she had done a "bloody good job" in education and did not want to be just shunted around Whitehall. They also suspect the hand of Nick Timothy, May's former chief of staff, who has used a number of articles to single out Greening for criticism. There were whispers of Greening getting "too close" to teaching unions (perhaps no bad thing when only 8 per cent of teachers voted Tory last year) and speaking up too much in cabinet.

    "A number of people who have been disloyal and ineffective have been allowed to stay in their roles," one senior Tory MP told me last night. "Why is Justine the only one to go? Because the PM has Nick Timothy whispering in her ear."
    Hadn't seen that but it is consistent with what I was saying. Deeply depressing that May is still talking to that idiot Timothy, if it is true. It would certainly explain the incompetence.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 3,249
    DavidL said:

    I can't help feeling that Justine Greening thought she would be left in post if she simply said no, as so many others had. May obviously felt that she could not back down again without looking (even more) ridiculous.

    I said at the weekend that an attempt to have a significant reshuffle could be fatal for Mrs May. She simply does not have the power to make these kinds of decisions and is there on the tolerance of many different sections of her party, any one of which is larger than her majority.

    The Brexit negotiations are undoubtedly a complicating factor forcing people to hold their hands at the moment but the end has been brought closer by this farce. Her political incompetence is extraordinary for someone who held such senior office for so long before becoming PM.

    She doesn’t have a majority at all...

    I think she should have sacked Boris and otherwise shuffled a few junior posts/promoted a few.
    Maybe Steve Baker or Hunt to FCO.

    It would have looked strong, the press would have seen it as very decisive, no one could argue it wasn’t deserved on merit, she’d have made friends abroad with it.

    Boris will plot regardless whether inside or out probably - but I suspect it’s too soon for him to challenge - no MP can seriously think he has enough of a grasp on details to deliver Brexit.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 12,944
    Raab is new Housing minister. Gotta get that one right and fast.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,628

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Eagles, he certainly gave plenty of people the chop.

    They were the lucky ones, some were burned alive.
    They were also the lucky ones. Some were boiled, dismembered, or hung in chains to die of starvation.

    Henry VIII was simply the most evil man ever to rule this country.
    I think William the Bastard, AKA the Conqueror, who left entire parts of the nation unpeopled for centuries, following the Harrying of the North, must take that title.
    To say nothing of chopping off your hands and feet if you were tactless enough to remind him who his grandfather was.
    I don't think William had the monopoly on that kind of behaviour - most monarchs of the time were similarly ruthless - Henry I had his grandchildren's eyes put out and nose cut off as one of many typical actions of the day.
    Conversely Richard the Lionheart pardoned the crossbowman who mortally wounded him. According to some accounts after the king died he was tortured to death anyway, but it was a nice gesture.
    Yes true - but he had a lot of goodwill to make up after Acre.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,628
    SeanT said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Eagles, he certainly gave plenty of people the chop.

    They were the lucky ones, some were burned alive.
    They were also the lucky ones. Some were boiled, dismembered, or hung in chains to die of starvation.

    Henry VIII was simply the most evil man ever to rule this country.
    I think William the Bastard, AKA the Conqueror, who left entire parts of the nation unpeopled for centuries, following the Harrying of the North, must take that title.
    To say nothing of chopping off your hands and feet if you were tactless enough to remind him who his grandfather was.
    I don't think William had the monopoly on that kind of behaviour - most monarchs of the time were similarly ruthless - Henry I had his grandchildren's eyes put out and nose cut off as one of many typical actions of the day.
    Bloody Mary was pretty brutal, too.
    True.
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 20,168

    brendan16 said:

    He's right as well.
    Democracy seems to be doing what the EU wants - not whaf the democratically elected governored or asked to keep voting until they vote the right way.
    I can tell you from experience that Hungarian trains don't run on time, which seems to be the type of defence that you are offering for their government.

    The Hungarian government is lacking any kind of coherent opposition. In the meantime, it controls the media with a grip that Silvio Berlusconi would have envied: Viktor Orban boasts of leading an illiberal democracy. He's half right. He will be re-elected later this year, probably with the two thirds majority required to alter the constitution. Two years after the event, Brexiters still have a meltdown about a factual document about the EU referendum that the government issued in advance. But they are entirely comfortable supporting governments with a vice-like grip on the local media.

    Any independent voices are to be stifled. So George Soros, who founded the Central European University following the fall of Communism, is a favourite bogeyman (curiously, he's hated by closet racist kippers and Trump supporters too - he must be doing something right). The government has tried to close the university down.

    And Viktor Orban's family is unaccountably wealthy: the Hungarians have the word "stroman" which I think is directly lifted from the English words "straw man", which is much used for Viktor's friends who have acquired a remarkable amount of property for his family. This, more than anything else, seems to be motivating his policies.

    So young people move away, seeing better prospects elsewhere. Hungary offers the prospect of what Britain may well turn into post-Brexit - a population fearful of outsiders whose brightest and best seek their fortunes abroad.
    I know I barely visit the site these days, but - if I'm not mistaken - this is the same Hungary where you choose to live, right? The place you regard as your "spiritual" home?

    lol
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,628

    TOPPING said:

    brendan16 said:

    He's right as well.
    Democracy seems to be doing what the EU wants - not whaf the democratically elected governments of Poland and Hungary want? The ruling Polish and Hungarian parties have massive poll leads - so the locals don't seem too unhappy, I also dare say people feel a lot safer walking the streets of Warsaw or Budapest these days than many parts of Brussels. And they want to keep it that way!

    As the Irish, French and Dutch know the EU only likes democracy when the people vote the right way. If they don't they are ignored or asked to keep voting until they vote the right way.
    I would love to wear a t-shirt, shorts and flip-flops to my Club but they won't allow it. Damn them. Not cancelling the direct debit, that said.
    Except of course these are political decisions being made by the EU, not legal ones.
    Let Poland and Hungary leave then, if they think it's that important.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 25,278
    edited January 9
    This is a really good read, set around the time of the Conquest. One of my favourite books, in fact ...
    http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/book-the-last-english-king-by-julian-rathbone-little-brown-pounds-1699-1288459.html
This discussion has been closed.