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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Tonight’s cartoon on Trump and the Nother Korean leader Kim Jo

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  • MattWMattW Posts: 1,819
    Correction: I should have said Appeal Court not Supreme Court ("Law Lords" was so much less ersatz as a name).
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 10,070
    rkrkrk said:

    MaxPB said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Scott_P said:
    Anyone would think Brussels was getting nervous about not getting their £40 billion.

    That it has already spent.
    I think most if not all of that money is going to Brussels even if there is ‘no deal’.
    That was the point of the EU sequencing.

    In any case - I remain confident there will be a deal.
    No, even the EU has admitted that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. A no deal means much less money, only that which we owe until 2019.

    Tbh, if they can't get other countries to make up the difference when we stop paying in then the EU is much less popular than people realise. On here when the referendum was announced the thinking was a remain victory by 20-30 points, much how polling looks in many EU countries that are now refusing to pay up.
    My understanding is the methodology for approx 40bn is agreed and is legally binding.
    That money is just the divorce payment and happens even if no deal is done on trade. EDIT - that figure includes commitments underneath 2014-2020 budget I believe.

    The transition and /final state deal may have money involved or not - that’s still up for discussion.

    Presumably we could go back on a legally binding agreement. But it seems vanishingly unlikely to me.
    IIRC the likes of Richards Nabavi and Tyndall and Robert Smithson have said otherwise as to the details.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 27,653
    More from Sir John:

    The NatCen survey found that a majority of Scottish voters disagree with Nicola Sturgeon’s calls for Holyrood to take control over trade and immigration policy in Scotland. It found that 63% back a single UK-wide immigration system and 67% back a UK-wide trade policy. It also found 59% of Scots think EU migrants should face the same visa and border controls as non-EU visitors.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 10,070

    Whisper it, but the Trump belligerence might just be getting results with North Korea..... They seem to have blinked first.

    Trump mediated by China turning the economic screws, which probably is the more direct cause.
    Because China can't read Trump either.

    Obama was just so predictable.......
    Predictable and weak.

    Predictable is okay if you can be predicted to be strong.

    Obama wasn't.
    This might be tortured thinking, but is it possible that China sees Trump's domestic issues -
    with possible impeachment over Russia - and thinks to itself "Shit, this guy really might press the button on North Korea as a distraction....."?

    If the US hammers North Korea, then Chinese "protection" really will be demonstrated to be worthless. Not a message they want to see as they implement their aim to increase China's influence around the globe.
    There are advantages to being mad, bad, powerful and unpredictable.

    The Chinese are used to playing a long game, playing nicely for a year or seven until Trump goes is something they're likely willing to do.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 10,211
    rkrkrk said:

    MaxPB said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Scott_P said:
    Anyone would think Brussels was getting nervous about not getting their £40 billion.

    That it has already spent.
    I think most if not all of that money is going to Brussels even if there is ‘no deal’.
    That was the point of the EU sequencing.

    In any case - I remain confident there will be a deal.
    No, even the EU has admitted that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. A no deal means much less money, only that which we owe until 2019.

    Tbh, if they can't get other countries to make up the difference when we stop paying in then the EU is much less popular than people realise. On here when the referendum was announced the thinking was a remain victory by 20-30 points, much how polling looks in many EU countries that are now refusing to pay up.
    My understanding is the methodology for approx 40bn is agreed and is legally binding.
    That money is just the divorce payment and happens even if no deal is done on trade. EDIT - that figure includes commitments underneath 2014-2020 budget I believe.

    The transition and /final state deal may have money involved or not - that’s still up for discussion.

    Presumably we could go back on a legally binding agreement. But it seems vanishingly unlikely to me.
    That's also my understanding - essentially this is the money that we admit is owed because of our past commitments.

    There is, meanwhile, some movement in the obstructive east - Hungary, which is keen to change from its position as quasi-pariah, has said they'd be happy to pay more, indeed would be willing to become net contributors. Poland has fired nearly all its Eurosceptic ministers and also seems poised to do a deal, so long as they don't have to give way on their law reforms. In both cases, it's not clear if the other 25 countries will be up for a deal with them, but in the interest of maintaining a solid front they may do.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 1,742

    rkrkrk said:

    MaxPB said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Scott_P said:
    Anyone would think Brussels was getting nervous about not getting their £40 billion.

    That it has already spent.
    I think most if not all of that money is going to Brussels even if there is ‘no deal’.
    That was the point of the EU sequencing.

    In any case - I remain confident there will be a deal.
    No, even the EU has admitted that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. A no deal means much less money, only that which we owe until 2019.

    Tbh, if they can't get other countries to make up the difference when we stop paying in then the EU is much less popular than people realise. On here when the referendum was announced the thinking was a remain victory by 20-30 points, much how polling looks in many EU countries that are now refusing to pay up.
    My understanding is the methodology for approx 40bn is agreed and is legally binding.
    That money is just the divorce payment and happens even if no deal is done on trade. EDIT - that figure includes commitments underneath 2014-2020 budget I believe.

    The transition and /final state deal may have money involved or not - that’s still up for discussion.

    Presumably we could go back on a legally binding agreement. But it seems vanishingly unlikely to me.
    IIRC the likes of Richards Nabavi and Tyndall and Robert Smithson have said otherwise as to the details.
    As I recall, the Brexit bill et al will be in the Withdrawal bill presented to the house this autumn, but the trade agreement will not be signed off until later, so it is not really the case that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.



  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 10,070

    MikeL said:

    "PM likely to survive final Commons Brexit vote, says John Curtice"

    "Elections expert predicts deal will be agreed with EU and approved in Commons, with Theresa May remaining in post"

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/09/pm-likely-to-survive-final-commons-brexit-vote-says-john-curtice

    Brexit poses a fundamental challenge to the theology of the European Union: the UK public doesn’t accept that free trade and freedom of movement necessarily go together,” he said. “The point is, people come with social externalities that goods don’t necessary come with.” In other words, voters may like an east European delicatessen in the neighbourhood but not necessarily more east Europeans as neighbours.
    Where are these East European delicatessens ? Does he mean those downmarket Euromarts, often run by non-Europeans and widely regarded as front operations for dubious activities ?

    And judging by the voices in the supermarkets the Eastern Europeans don't do much shopping in these 'delicatessens' either.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 655
    edited January 9

    MikeL said:

    "PM likely to survive final Commons Brexit vote, says John Curtice"

    "Elections expert predicts deal will be agreed with EU and approved in Commons, with Theresa May remaining in post"

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/09/pm-likely-to-survive-final-commons-brexit-vote-says-john-curtice

    Brexit poses a fundamental challenge to the theology of the European Union: the UK public doesn’t accept that free trade and freedom of movement necessarily go together,” he said. “The point is, people come with social externalities that goods don’t necessary come with.” In other words, voters may like an east European delicatessen in the neighbourhood but not necessarily more east Europeans as neighbours.
    Free trade doesn't require complete freedom of movement though does it - NAFTA doesn't, ASEAN doesn't. Only the EU thinks it is indivisible.

    And of course the issue people have is not with immigration - it's quality vs quantity. Not every EU citizen here is a net contributor and not every Brit is lazy and work shy. Why shouldn't we be able to choose who comes here rather than they choosing us whether or not they have the skills we need.

    Seems to work for Canada - who has a free trade deal with the EU but not FOM with it - Australia and New Zealand? Is allowing access to live and work here based on your skills and qualifications wherever you are from rather than the colour of your (maroon) passport so ridiculous?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 27,371
    edited January 9

    MikeL said:

    "PM likely to survive final Commons Brexit vote, says John Curtice"

    "Elections expert predicts deal will be agreed with EU and approved in Commons, with Theresa May remaining in post"

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/09/pm-likely-to-survive-final-commons-brexit-vote-says-john-curtice

    Brexit poses a fundamental challenge to the theology of the European Union: the UK public doesn’t accept that free trade and freedom of movement necessarily go together,” he said. “The point is, people come with social externalities that goods don’t necessary come with.” In other words, voters may like an east European delicatessen in the neighbourhood but not necessarily more east Europeans as neighbours.
    Where are these East European delicatessens ? Does he mean those downmarket Euromarts, often run by non-Europeans and widely regarded as front operations for dubious activities ?

    And judging by the voices in the supermarkets the Eastern Europeans don't do much shopping in these 'delicatessens' either.
    Are you suggesting they aren’t the best place to purchase authentic Kielbasa?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 17,778

    MikeL said:

    "PM likely to survive final Commons Brexit vote, says John Curtice"

    "Elections expert predicts deal will be agreed with EU and approved in Commons, with Theresa May remaining in post"

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/09/pm-likely-to-survive-final-commons-brexit-vote-says-john-curtice

    Brexit poses a fundamental challenge to the theology of the European Union: the UK public doesn’t accept that free trade and freedom of movement necessarily go together,” he said. “The point is, people come with social externalities that goods don’t necessary come with.” In other words, voters may like an east European delicatessen in the neighbourhood but not necessarily more east Europeans as neighbours.
    Why didn't Farage choose a poster showing a queue of Polish delicatessen workers?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 10,070
    Foxy said:

    rkrkrk said:

    MaxPB said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Scott_P said:
    Anyone would think Brussels was getting nervous about not getting their £40 billion.

    That it has already spent.
    I think most if not all of that money is going to Brussels even if there is ‘no deal’.
    That was the point of the EU sequencing.

    In any case - I remain confident there will be a deal.
    No, even the EU has admitted that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. A no deal means much less money, only that which we owe until 2019.

    Tbh, if they can't get other countries to make up the difference when we stop paying in then the EU is much less popular than people realise. On here when the referendum was announced the thinking was a remain victory by 20-30 points, much how polling looks in many EU countries that are now refusing to pay up.
    My understanding is the methodology for approx 40bn is agreed and is legally binding.
    That money is just the divorce payment and happens even if no deal is done on trade. EDIT - that figure includes commitments underneath 2014-2020 budget I believe.

    The transition and /final state deal may have money involved or not - that’s still up for discussion.

    Presumably we could go back on a legally binding agreement. But it seems vanishingly unlikely to me.
    IIRC the likes of Richards Nabavi and Tyndall and Robert Smithson have said otherwise as to the details.
    As I recall, the Brexit bill et al will be in the Withdrawal bill presented to the house this autumn, but the trade agreement will not be signed off until later, so it is not really the case that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.

    I would imagine that all things will converge.

    But I'm not arguing - one of the good things of PB is that there are people knowledgeable on almost every subject. So I'll leave the discussing on this issue to the likes of RT, RN and RCS.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 17,778
    brendan16 said:

    MikeL said:

    "PM likely to survive final Commons Brexit vote, says John Curtice"

    "Elections expert predicts deal will be agreed with EU and approved in Commons, with Theresa May remaining in post"

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/09/pm-likely-to-survive-final-commons-brexit-vote-says-john-curtice

    Brexit poses a fundamental challenge to the theology of the European Union: the UK public doesn’t accept that free trade and freedom of movement necessarily go together,” he said. “The point is, people come with social externalities that goods don’t necessary come with.” In other words, voters may like an east European delicatessen in the neighbourhood but not necessarily more east Europeans as neighbours.
    Free trade doesn't require freedom of movement though does it - NAFTA doesn't, ASEAN doesn't. Only the EU thinks it is indivisible.

    And of course the issue people have is not with immigration - it's quality vs quantity. Not every EU citizen here is a net contributor and not every Brit is lazy and work shy. Why shouldn't we be able to choose who comes here rather than they choosing us whether or not they have the skills we need.

    Seems to work for Canada - who has a free trade deal with the EU but not FOM with it - Australia and New Zealand? Is allowing access to live and work here based on your skills and qualifications wherever you are from rather than the colour of your (maroon) passport so ridiculous?
    Australia and New Zealand have free movement, and Canada and the USA do not have free trade in the same sense that it exists within the single market. This seems to be the basic misunderstanding: an FTA is categorically different from a single market.

    Imagine if Texas left the USA and asked for an FTA with the remaining states but without free movement. Do you think that FTA would provide for remotely the same level of economic integration as existed as part of the USA under federal jurisdiction?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,812

    brendan16 said:

    MikeL said:

    "PM likely to survive final Commons Brexit vote, says John Curtice"

    "Elections expert predicts deal will be agreed with EU and approved in Commons, with Theresa May remaining in post"

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/09/pm-likely-to-survive-final-commons-brexit-vote-says-john-curtice

    Brexit poses a fundamental challenge to the theology of the European Union: the UK public doesn’t accept that free trade and freedom of movement necessarily go together,” he said. “The point is, people come with social externalities that goods don’t necessary come with.” In other words, voters may like an east European delicatessen in the neighbourhood but not necessarily more east Europeans as neighbours.
    Free trade doesn't require freedom of movement though does it - NAFTA doesn't, ASEAN doesn't. Only the EU thinks it is indivisible.

    And of course the issue people have is not with immigration - it's quality vs quantity. Not every EU citizen here is a net contributor and not every Brit is lazy and work shy. Why shouldn't we be able to choose who comes here rather than they choosing us whether or not they have the skills we need.

    Seems to work for Canada - who has a free trade deal with the EU but not FOM with it - Australia and New Zealand? Is allowing access to live and work here based on your skills and qualifications wherever you are from rather than the colour of your (maroon) passport so ridiculous?
    Australia and New Zealand have free movement, and Canada and the USA do not have free trade in the same sense that it exists within the single market. This seems to be the basic misunderstanding: an FTA is categorically different from a single market.

    Imagine if Texas left the USA and asked for an FTA with the remaining states but without free movement. Do you think that FTA would provide for remotely the same level of economic integration as existed as part of the USA under federal jurisdiction?
    Probably not, as they'd no longer be in the same country. Not sure how that's relevant to the UK's position, unless you are arguing the EU is like the US?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 10,070

    MikeL said:

    "PM likely to survive final Commons Brexit vote, says John Curtice"

    "Elections expert predicts deal will be agreed with EU and approved in Commons, with Theresa May remaining in post"

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/09/pm-likely-to-survive-final-commons-brexit-vote-says-john-curtice

    Brexit poses a fundamental challenge to the theology of the European Union: the UK public doesn’t accept that free trade and freedom of movement necessarily go together,” he said. “The point is, people come with social externalities that goods don’t necessary come with.” In other words, voters may like an east European delicatessen in the neighbourhood but not necessarily more east Europeans as neighbours.
    Why didn't Farage choose a poster showing a queue of Polish delicatessen workers?
    He was closer than you'd like:

    ' It also hosts no fewer than eight Polish and Lithuanian food stores, most of which advertise their European goods with the circle of 12 yellow stars that adorn the EU’s flag. It’s a jarring sight in a town that overwhelmingly voted to leave the bloc.

    Hiwa Osman, a 39 year-old Iraqi Kurd, is the unlikely owner of a store selling exclusively Polish and Lithuanian food. He bought his shop from a fellow Iraqi in July. He said Lithuanians own two east European shops in town, but the rest are owned by Iraqi Kurds '

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-12-13/this-english-town-backed-brexit-now-the-poles-are-leaving
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 17,778
    RobD said:

    brendan16 said:

    MikeL said:

    "PM likely to survive final Commons Brexit vote, says John Curtice"

    "Elections expert predicts deal will be agreed with EU and approved in Commons, with Theresa May remaining in post"

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/09/pm-likely-to-survive-final-commons-brexit-vote-says-john-curtice

    Brexit poses a fundamental challenge to the theology of the European Union: the UK public doesn’t accept that free trade and freedom of movement necessarily go together,” he said. “The point is, people come with social externalities that goods don’t necessary come with.” In other words, voters may like an east European delicatessen in the neighbourhood but not necessarily more east Europeans as neighbours.
    Free trade doesn't require freedom of movement though does it - NAFTA doesn't, ASEAN doesn't. Only the EU thinks it is indivisible.

    And of course the issue people have is not with immigration - it's quality vs quantity. Not every EU citizen here is a net contributor and not every Brit is lazy and work shy. Why shouldn't we be able to choose who comes here rather than they choosing us whether or not they have the skills we need.

    Seems to work for Canada - who has a free trade deal with the EU but not FOM with it - Australia and New Zealand? Is allowing access to live and work here based on your skills and qualifications wherever you are from rather than the colour of your (maroon) passport so ridiculous?
    Australia and New Zealand have free movement, and Canada and the USA do not have free trade in the same sense that it exists within the single market. This seems to be the basic misunderstanding: an FTA is categorically different from a single market.

    Imagine if Texas left the USA and asked for an FTA with the remaining states but without free movement. Do you think that FTA would provide for remotely the same level of economic integration as existed as part of the USA under federal jurisdiction?
    Probably not, as they'd no longer be in the same country. Not sure how that's relevant to the UK's position, unless you are arguing the EU is like the US?
    Yes, that's exactly what it's like in terms of trade policy. The EU certainly has more in common with the USA than it does with NAFTA.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 27,653

    brendan16 said:

    MikeL said:

    "PM likely to survive final Commons Brexit vote, says John Curtice"

    "Elections expert predicts deal will be agreed with EU and approved in Commons, with Theresa May remaining in post"

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/09/pm-likely-to-survive-final-commons-brexit-vote-says-john-curtice

    Brexit poses a fundamental challenge to the theology of the European Union: the UK public doesn’t accept that free trade and freedom of movement necessarily go together,” he said. “The point is, people come with social externalities that goods don’t necessary come with.” In other words, voters may like an east European delicatessen in the neighbourhood but not necessarily more east Europeans as neighbours.
    Free trade doesn't require freedom of movement though does it - NAFTA doesn't, ASEAN doesn't. Only the EU thinks it is indivisible.

    And of course the issue people have is not with immigration - it's quality vs quantity. Not every EU citizen here is a net contributor and not every Brit is lazy and work shy. Why shouldn't we be able to choose who comes here rather than they choosing us whether or not they have the skills we need.

    Seems to work for Canada - who has a free trade deal with the EU but not FOM with it - Australia and New Zealand? Is allowing access to live and work here based on your skills and qualifications wherever you are from rather than the colour of your (maroon) passport so ridiculous?
    Australia and New Zealand have free movement
    Not remotely in the same way as the EU does.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 17,778

    brendan16 said:

    MikeL said:

    "PM likely to survive final Commons Brexit vote, says John Curtice"

    "Elections expert predicts deal will be agreed with EU and approved in Commons, with Theresa May remaining in post"

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/09/pm-likely-to-survive-final-commons-brexit-vote-says-john-curtice

    Brexit poses a fundamental challenge to the theology of the European Union: the UK public doesn’t accept that free trade and freedom of movement necessarily go together,” he said. “The point is, people come with social externalities that goods don’t necessary come with.” In other words, voters may like an east European delicatessen in the neighbourhood but not necessarily more east Europeans as neighbours.
    Free trade doesn't require freedom of movement though does it - NAFTA doesn't, ASEAN doesn't. Only the EU thinks it is indivisible.

    And of course the issue people have is not with immigration - it's quality vs quantity. Not every EU citizen here is a net contributor and not every Brit is lazy and work shy. Why shouldn't we be able to choose who comes here rather than they choosing us whether or not they have the skills we need.

    Seems to work for Canada - who has a free trade deal with the EU but not FOM with it - Australia and New Zealand? Is allowing access to live and work here based on your skills and qualifications wherever you are from rather than the colour of your (maroon) passport so ridiculous?
    Australia and New Zealand have free movement
    Not remotely in the same way as the EU does.
    If it were used as the post-Brexit model for the UK, do you think the government would get away with saying that free movement had ended? Giving people indefinite residency upon arrival is hardly the 'points based system' Brexit voters were promised.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,630
    edited January 10
    Yasmin Alibhai Brown at peak Brexit whinge

    'Britain has never been a small, dull, grey island until now'

    http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/britain-never-small-dull-grey-island-1-5343050
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 27,371
    HYUFD said:

    Yasmin Alibai Brown at peak Brexit whinge

    'Britain has never been a small, dull, grey island until now'

    http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/britain-never-small-dull-grey-island-1-5343050

    What utter utter horseshit.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 27,653
    HYUFD said:

    Yasmin Alibhai Brown at peak Brexit whinge

    'Britain has never been a small, dull, grey island until now'

    http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/britain-never-small-dull-grey-island-1-5343050

    That’s going to persuade a lot of LEAVE voters to change their minds......
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 27,653
    edited January 10

    brendan16 said:

    MikeL said:

    "PM likely to survive final Commons Brexit vote, says John Curtice"

    "Elections expert predicts deal will be agreed with EU and approved in Commons, with Theresa May remaining in post"

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/09/pm-likely-to-survive-final-commons-brexit-vote-says-john-curtice

    Brexit poses a fundamental challenge to the theology of the European Union: the UK public doesn’t accept that free trade and freedom of movement necessarily go together,” he said. “The point is, people come with social externalities that goods don’t necessary come with.” In other words, voters may like an east European delicatessen in the neighbourhood but not necessarily more east Europeans as neighbours.
    Free trade doesn't require freedom of movement though does it - NAFTA doesn't, ASEAN doesn't. Only the EU thinks it is indivisible.

    And of course the issue people have is not with immigration - it's quality vs quantity. Not every EU citizen here is a net contributor and not every Brit is lazy and work shy. Why shouldn't we be able to choose who comes here rather than they choosing us whether or not they have the skills we need.

    Seems to work for Canada - who has a free trade deal with the EU but not FOM with it - Australia and New Zealand? Is allowing access to live and work here based on your skills and qualifications wherever you are from rather than the colour of your (maroon) passport so ridiculous?
    Australia and New Zealand have free movement
    Not remotely in the same way as the EU does.
    If it were used as the post-Brexit model for the UK, do you think the government would get away with saying that free movement had ended? Giving people indefinite residency upon arrival is hardly the 'points based system' Brexit voters were promised.
    Since, according to Barnier the only deals on offer are “Canada” and “none” that does not arise. Does the Canada deal include security cooperation?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 17,778

    brendan16 said:

    MikeL said:

    "PM likely to survive final Commons Brexit vote, says John Curtice"

    "Elections expert predicts deal will be agreed with EU and approved in Commons, with Theresa May remaining in post"

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/09/pm-likely-to-survive-final-commons-brexit-vote-says-john-curtice

    Brexit poses a fundamental challenge to the theology of the European Union: the UK public doesn’t accept that free trade and freedom of movement necessarily go together,” he said. “The point is, people come with social externalities that goods don’t necessary come with.” In other words, voters may like an east European delicatessen in the neighbourhood but not necessarily more east Europeans as neighbours.
    Free trade doesn't require freedom of movement though does it - NAFTA doesn't, ASEAN doesn't. Only the EU thinks it is indivisible.

    And of course the issue people have is not with immigration - it's quality vs quantity. Not every EU citizen here is a net contributor and not every Brit is lazy and work shy. Why shouldn't we be able to choose who comes here rather than they choosing us whether or not they have the skills we need.

    Seems to work for Canada - who has a free trade deal with the EU but not FOM with it - Australia and New Zealand? Is allowing access to live and work here based on your skills and qualifications wherever you are from rather than the colour of your (maroon) passport so ridiculous?
    Australia and New Zealand have free movement
    Not remotely in the same way as the EU does.
    If it were used as the post-Brexit model for the UK, do you think the government would get away with saying that free movement had ended? Giving people indefinite residency upon arrival is hardly the 'points based system' Brexit voters were promised.
    Since, according to Barnier the only deals on offer are “Canada” and “none” that does not arise. Does the Canada deal include security cooperation?
    No, Barnier says the only kind of deal compatible with the UK's red lines is "Canada". That's not the same as saying that it's the only kind of deal on offer.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 27,653

    brendan16 said:

    MikeL said:

    "PM likely to survive final Commons Brexit vote, says John Curtice"

    "Elections expert predicts deal will be agreed with EU and approved in Commons, with Theresa May remaining in post"

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/09/pm-likely-to-survive-final-commons-brexit-vote-says-john-curtice

    Brexit poses a fundamental challenge to the theology of the European Union: the UK public doesn’t accept that free trade and freedom of movement necessarily go together,” he said. “The point is, people come with social externalities that goods don’t necessary come with.” In other words, voters may like an east European delicatessen in the neighbourhood but not necessarily more east Europeans as neighbours.
    Free trade doesn't require freedom of movement though does it - NAFTA doesn't, ASEAN doesn't. Only the EU thinks it is indivisible.

    And of course the issue people have is not with immigration - it's quality vs quantity. Not every EU citizen here is a net contributor and not every Brit is lazy and work shy. Why shouldn't we be able to choose who comes here rather than they choosing us whether or not they have the skills we need.

    Seems to work for Canada - who has a free trade deal with the EU but not FOM with it - Australia and New Zealand? Is allowing access to live and work here based on your skills and qualifications wherever you are from rather than the colour of your (maroon) passport so ridiculous?
    Australia and New Zealand have free movement
    Not remotely in the same way as the EU does.
    If it were used as the post-Brexit model for the UK, do you think the government would get away with saying that free movement had ended? Giving people indefinite residency upon arrival is hardly the 'points based system' Brexit voters were promised.
    Since, according to Barnier the only deals on offer are “Canada” and “none” that does not arise. Does the Canada deal include security cooperation?
    No, Barnier says the only kind of deal compatible with the UK's red lines is "Canada". That's not the same as saying that it's the only kind of deal on offer.
    So Barnier is excluding security cooperation?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 17,778

    brendan16 said:

    MikeL said:

    "PM likely to survive final Commons Brexit vote, says John Curtice"

    "Elections expert predicts deal will be agreed with EU and approved in Commons, with Theresa May remaining in post"

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/09/pm-likely-to-survive-final-commons-brexit-vote-says-john-curtice

    Brexit poses a fundamental challenge to the theology of the European Union: the UK public doesn’t accept that free trade and freedom of movement necessarily go together,” he said. “The point is, people come with social externalities that goods don’t necessary come with.” In other words, voters may like an east European delicatessen in the neighbourhood but not necessarily more east Europeans as neighbours.
    Free trade doesn't require freedom of movement though does it - NAFTA doesn't, ASEAN doesn't. Only the EU thinks it is indivisible.

    And of course the issue people have is not with immigration - it's quality vs quantity. Not every EU citizen here is a net contributor and not every Brit is lazy and work shy. Why shouldn't we be able to choose who comes here rather than they choosing us whether or not they have the skills we need.

    Seems to work for Canada - who has a free trade deal with the EU but not FOM with it - Australia and New Zealand? Is allowing access to live and work here based on your skills and qualifications wherever you are from rather than the colour of your (maroon) passport so ridiculous?
    Australia and New Zealand have free movement
    Not remotely in the same way as the EU does.
    If it were used as the post-Brexit model for the UK, do you think the government would get away with saying that free movement had ended? Giving people indefinite residency upon arrival is hardly the 'points based system' Brexit voters were promised.
    Since, according to Barnier the only deals on offer are “Canada” and “none” that does not arise. Does the Canada deal include security cooperation?
    No, Barnier says the only kind of deal compatible with the UK's red lines is "Canada". That's not the same as saying that it's the only kind of deal on offer.
    So Barnier is excluding security cooperation?
    Turkey is a member of NATO. Why is it relevant to the kind of trade deal we get?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 27,653

    brendan16 said:

    MikeL said:

    "PM likely to survive final Commons Brexit vote, says John Curtice"

    "Elections expert predicts deal will be agreed with EU and approved in Commons, with Theresa May remaining in post"

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/09/pm-likely-to-survive-final-commons-brexit-vote-says-john-curtice

    Brexit poses a fundamental challenge to the theology of the European Union: the UK public doesn’t accept that free trade and freedom of movement necessarily go together,” he said. “The point is, people come with social externalities that goods don’t necessary come with.” In other words, voters may like an east European delicatessen in the neighbourhood but not necessarily more east Europeans as neighbours.
    Free trade doesn't require freedom of movement though does it - NAFTA doesn't, ASEAN doesn't. Only the EU thinks it is indivisible.

    And of course the issue people have is not with immigration - it's quality vs quantity. Not every EU citizen here is a net contributor and not every Brit is lazy and work shy. Why shouldn't we be able to choose who comes here rather than they choosing us whether or not they have the skills we need.

    Seems to work for Canada - who has a free trade deal with the EU but not FOM with it - Australia and New Zealand? Is allowing access to live and work here based on your skills and qualifications wherever you are from rather than the colour of your (maroon) passport so ridiculous?
    Australia and New Zealand have free movement
    Not remotely in the same way as the EU does.
    If it were used as the post-Brexit model for the UK, do you think the government would get away with saying that free movement had ended? Giving people indefinite residency upon arrival is hardly the 'points based system' Brexit voters were promised.
    Since, according to Barnier the only deals on offer are “Canada” and “none” that does not arise. Does the Canada deal include security cooperation?
    No, Barnier says the only kind of deal compatible with the UK's red lines is "Canada". That's not the same as saying that it's the only kind of deal on offer.
    So Barnier is excluding security cooperation?
    Turkey is a member of NATO.
    So are the US and Canada, your point is caller?

    The U.K. wants “Canada plus” - Barnier says only “Canada” is on offer - so presumably is happy about losing a “plus” of security cooperation?
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 655
    edited January 10

    brendan16 said:

    MikeL said:

    "PM likely to survive final Commons Brexit vote, says John Curtice"

    "Elections expert predicts deal will be agreed with EU and approved in Commons, with Theresa May remaining in post"

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/09/pm-likely-to-survive-final-commons-brexit-vote-says-john-curtice

    Brexit poses a fundamental challenge to the theology of the European Union: the UK public doesn’t accept that free trade and freedom of movement necessarily go together,” he said. “The point is, people come with social externalities that goods don’t necessary come with.” In other words, voters may like an east European delicatessen in the neighbourhood but not necessarily more east Europeans as neighbours.
    Free trade doesn't require freedom of movement though does it - NAFTA doesn't, ASEAN doesn't. Only the EU thinks it is indivisible.

    And of course the issue people have is not with immigration - it's quality vs quantity. Not every EU citizen here is a net contributor and not every Brit is lazy and work shy. Why shouldn't we be able to choose who comes here rather than they choosing us whether or not they have the skills we need.

    Seems to work for Canada - who has a free trade deal with the EU but not FOM with it - Australia and New Zealand? Is allowing access to live and work here based on your skills and qualifications wherever you are from rather than the colour of your (maroon) passport so ridiculous?
    Australia and New Zealand have free movement
    Not remotely in the same way as the EU does.
    Agreed. KIwis for example have no immediate and automatic right to welfare, free education or full Medicare on arrival in Australia. They are effectively treated as second class in a way which does not apply to EU citizens here. Their reciprocal health agreement with Australia is in fact less generous than the ones British visitors enjoy!

    http://www.smh.com.au/national/new-zealanders-in-australia-are-still-treated-like-secondclass-citizens-20160414-go691n.html

    The Aussies do much better the other way - but as with the EU almost all the migration is one way anyway from NZ to Australia.

    The quote of course asked if free trade required free movement - not does a single market require it. Neither do in fact - it's just that the EU insists it does.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 17,778
    brendan16 said:

    brendan16 said:

    MikeL said:

    "PM likely to survive final Commons Brexit vote, says John Curtice"

    "Elections expert predicts deal will be agreed with EU and approved in Commons, with Theresa May remaining in post"

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/09/pm-likely-to-survive-final-commons-brexit-vote-says-john-curtice

    Brexit poses a fundamental challenge to the theology of the European Union: the UK public doesn’t accept that free trade and freedom of movement necessarily go together,” he said. “The point is, people come with social externalities that goods don’t necessary come with.” In other words, voters may like an east European delicatessen in the neighbourhood but not necessarily more east Europeans as neighbours.
    Free trade doesn't require freedom of movement though does it - NAFTA doesn't, ASEAN doesn't. Only the EU thinks it is indivisible.

    And of course the issue people have is not with immigration - it's quality vs quantity. Not every EU citizen here is a net contributor and not every Brit is lazy and work shy. Why shouldn't we be able to choose who comes here rather than they choosing us whether or not they have the skills we need.

    Seems to work for Canada - who has a free trade deal with the EU but not FOM with it - Australia and New Zealand? Is allowing access to live and work here based on your skills and qualifications wherever you are from rather than the colour of your (maroon) passport so ridiculous?
    Australia and New Zealand have free movement
    Not remotely in the same way as the EU does.
    Agreed. KIwis for example have no immediate and automatic right to welfare, free education or full Medicare on arrival in Australia. They are effectively treated as second class in a way which does not apply to EU citizens here. Their reciprocal health agreement with Australia is in fact less generous than the ones British visitors enjoy!

    http://www.smh.com.au/national/new-zealanders-in-australia-are-still-treated-like-secondclass-citizens-20160414-go691n.html

    The Aussies do much better the other way - but as with the EU almost all the migration is one way anyway from NZ to Australia.

    The quote of course asked if free trade required free movement - not does a single market require it. Neither do in fact - it's just that the EU insists it does.
    There is no single market anywhere in the world that doesn’t have free movement of people. For good reasons it is considered a fairly fundamental principle that people within an internal market should have the right to settle anywhere within it.
  • archer101auarcher101au Posts: 352
    Dubliner said:

    Why do people continue to talk of with-holding the £40 billion?

    Are they relying on nothing is agreed until everything etc.

    There are two agreements, and the terms of the first are now agreed in full. So far as I'm aware both parties expect to have this sealed and delivered in March, and talks on the second potential deal will start then.

    The nothing etc etc will, of course, apply equally to the second deal.

    You are completely wrong. The Phase 1 agreement is not a signed treaty, it is just a statement of agreed positions. The Phase 1 agreements only become legally binding when incorporated into the A50 treaty which will only get signed at the end. If there is no trade deal the UK can walk away and not pay anything as long as there is no A50 treaty.

    However, once the A50 treaty is signed (say early 2019) the Brexit bill is binding on the UK but the trade deal is NOT binding on the EU. The EU can (and probably will) renege on the trade deal and never ratify it and the UK will have agreed to pay the whole bill. The EU cannot legally agree a trade deal as part of the A50 treaty - which is why the UK should never have agreed to discuss any Brexit bill at this time.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 27,653

    Dubliner said:

    Why do people continue to talk of with-holding the £40 billion?

    Are they relying on nothing is agreed until everything etc.

    There are two agreements, and the terms of the first are now agreed in full. So far as I'm aware both parties expect to have this sealed and delivered in March, and talks on the second potential deal will start then.

    The nothing etc etc will, of course, apply equally to the second deal.

    The EU can (and probably will) renege on the trade deal and never ratify it and the UK will have agreed to pay the whole bill.
    Surely not!

    What about the fundamental reform of the CAP Blair secured for a return of some of our rebate?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 17,778

    Dubliner said:

    Why do people continue to talk of with-holding the £40 billion?

    Are they relying on nothing is agreed until everything etc.

    There are two agreements, and the terms of the first are now agreed in full. So far as I'm aware both parties expect to have this sealed and delivered in March, and talks on the second potential deal will start then.

    The nothing etc etc will, of course, apply equally to the second deal.

    The EU can (and probably will) renege on the trade deal and never ratify it and the UK will have agreed to pay the whole bill.
    Surely not!

    What about the fundamental reform of the CAP Blair secured for a return of some of our rebate?
    You’re taking Blair’s spin at face value?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 27,653

    Dubliner said:

    Why do people continue to talk of with-holding the £40 billion?

    Are they relying on nothing is agreed until everything etc.

    There are two agreements, and the terms of the first are now agreed in full. So far as I'm aware both parties expect to have this sealed and delivered in March, and talks on the second potential deal will start then.

    The nothing etc etc will, of course, apply equally to the second deal.

    The EU can (and probably will) renege on the trade deal and never ratify it and the UK will have agreed to pay the whole bill.
    Surely not!

    What about the fundamental reform of the CAP Blair secured for a return of some of our rebate?
    You’re taking Blair’s spin at face value?
    The Europhile lied?

    I'm shocked I tell you! Shocked!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 17,778

    Dubliner said:

    Why do people continue to talk of with-holding the £40 billion?

    Are they relying on nothing is agreed until everything etc.

    There are two agreements, and the terms of the first are now agreed in full. So far as I'm aware both parties expect to have this sealed and delivered in March, and talks on the second potential deal will start then.

    The nothing etc etc will, of course, apply equally to the second deal.

    The EU can (and probably will) renege on the trade deal and never ratify it and the UK will have agreed to pay the whole bill.
    Surely not!

    What about the fundamental reform of the CAP Blair secured for a return of some of our rebate?
    You’re taking Blair’s spin at face value?
    The Europhile lied?

    I'm shocked I tell you! Shocked!
    You’re just not tribal enough. Blair isn’t a Europhile; he’s Labour. ;)
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,131

    Foxy said:

    The Daily Mail has the best Tabloid level coverage of medical issues. Not bad at all and far better than the Express, with its weekly trumpeting of miracle breakthroughs.

    My mother buys it, though usually just the Sunday.

    That's quite interesting. I always presumed their medical coverage was like the rest of their stuff, some times true, often sloppy with the facts, and always heavily spun.
    They tend to get overexcited by stuff that’s still pre proof of concept but apart from that it’s pretty good
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,131
    brendan16 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Virgin have as much right to not sell the Mail as a baker has to not make a cake with a message on that they do not approve of.

    I agree - they don't stock the Guardian either. But let's not pretend principles trump commercial decisions - all that preaching is just a bit rich.

    And you can of course read the Mail online and Guardian online for free on their onboard wifi. Why spend £2 on the FT in the onboard shop when you can read the Mail onboard for free?! All those endless stories about Z list celebs sure shorten that long journey from London to Scotland!!
    Wait... you actually read the words?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 21,548

    Dubliner said:

    Why do people continue to talk of with-holding the £40 billion?

    Are they relying on nothing is agreed until everything etc.

    There are two agreements, and the terms of the first are now agreed in full. So far as I'm aware both parties expect to have this sealed and delivered in March, and talks on the second potential deal will start then.

    The nothing etc etc will, of course, apply equally to the second deal.

    You are completely wrong. The Phase 1 agreement is not a signed treaty, it is just a statement of agreed positions. The Phase 1 agreements only become legally binding when incorporated into the A50 treaty which will only get signed at the end. If there is no trade deal the UK can walk away and not pay anything as long as there is no A50 treaty.

    However, once the A50 treaty is signed (say early 2019) the Brexit bill is binding on the UK but the trade deal is NOT binding on the EU. The EU can (and probably will) renege on the trade deal and never ratify it and the UK will have agreed to pay the whole bill. The EU cannot legally agree a trade deal as part of the A50 treaty - which is why the UK should never have agreed to discuss any Brexit bill at this time.
    Yes, because the EU - whose largest export market is the UK - would lose out by having a free trade deal with the UK.

    Obviously.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 21,548
    brendan16 said:

    brendan16 said:

    MikeL said:

    "PM likely to survive final Commons Brexit vote, says John Curtice"

    "Elections expert predicts deal will be agreed with EU and approved in Commons, with Theresa May remaining in post"

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/09/pm-likely-to-survive-final-commons-brexit-vote-says-john-curtice

    Brexit poses a fundamental challenge to the theology of the European Union: the UK public doesn’t accept that free trade and freedom of movement necessarily go together,” he said. “The point is, people come with social externalities that goods don’t necessary come with.” In other words, voters may like an east European delicatessen in the neighbourhood but not necessarily more east Europeans as neighbours.
    Free trade doesn't require freedom of movement though does it - NAFTA doesn't, ASEAN doesn't. Only the EU thinks it is indivisible.

    And of course the issue people have is not with immigration - it's quality vs quantity. Not every EU citizen here is a net contributor and not every Brit is lazy and work shy. Why shouldn't we be able to choose who comes here rather than they choosing us whether or not they have the skills we need.

    Seems to work for Canada - who has a free trade deal with the EU but not FOM with it - Australia and New Zealand? Is allowing access to live and work here based on your skills and qualifications wherever you are from rather than the colour of your (maroon) passport so ridiculous?
    Australia and New Zealand have free movement
    Not remotely in the same way as the EU does.
    Agreed. KIwis for example have no immediate and automatic right to welfare, free education or full Medicare on arrival in Australia. They are effectively treated as second class in a way which does not apply to EU citizens here. Their reciprocal health agreement with Australia is in fact less generous than the ones British visitors enjoy!

    http://www.smh.com.au/national/new-zealanders-in-australia-are-still-treated-like-secondclass-citizens-20160414-go691n.html

    The Aussies do much better the other way - but as with the EU almost all the migration is one way anyway from NZ to Australia.

    The quote of course asked if free trade required free movement - not does a single market require it. Neither do in fact - it's just that the EU insists it does.
    In other words, somewhat more free than the EU-Switzerland deal, where EU residents in Switzerland (like MaxPB) must buy healthcare. (And their options are more limited, and only include higher priced plans, than are available for Swiss citizens.)
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 4,982
    brendan16 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Virgin have as much right to not sell the Mail as a baker has to not make a cake with a message on that they do not approve of.

    I agree - they don't stock the Guardian either. But let's not pretend principles trump commercial decisions - all that preaching is just a bit rich.

    And you can of course read the Mail online and Guardian online for free on their onboard wifi. Why spend £2 on the FT in the onboard shop when you can read the Mail onboard for free?! All those endless stories about Z list celebs sure shorten that long journey from London to Scotland!!
    Unlike Great Western, South Western and (i think) Southern Railways, wifi on Virgin Trains is not free. You have to log on and pay extra.

    Oddly enough, I have gone on the London-Glasgow train. Their bastard sockets didn't work and I was nursemaiding my laptop battery all the bloody way. I was quite vexed.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 27,371
    edited January 10
    Confirmed the country has gone to the dogs and the public haven't got a clue....not talking about the rise of Commie Corbyn...

    Prosecco continued to be the strongest contender in the fizzy wine stakes, with 9.5 bottles of the Italian tipple selling for every bottle of champagne over Christmas and New Year.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5252703/Prosecco-popular-CHampagne-Christmas.html
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 27,371
    edited January 10
    viewcode said:

    brendan16 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Virgin have as much right to not sell the Mail as a baker has to not make a cake with a message on that they do not approve of.

    I agree - they don't stock the Guardian either. But let's not pretend principles trump commercial decisions - all that preaching is just a bit rich.

    And you can of course read the Mail online and Guardian online for free on their onboard wifi. Why spend £2 on the FT in the onboard shop when you can read the Mail onboard for free?! All those endless stories about Z list celebs sure shorten that long journey from London to Scotland!!
    Unlike Great Western, South Western and (i think) Southern Railways, wifi on Virgin Trains is not free. You have to log on and pay extra.

    Oddly enough, I have gone on the London-Glasgow train. Their bastard sockets didn't work and I was nursemaiding my laptop battery all the bloody way. I was quite vexed.
    Portable power banks. These days, I never leave home without one. Anker are a great company for them.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 4,982

    viewcode said:

    brendan16 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Virgin have as much right to not sell the Mail as a baker has to not make a cake with a message on that they do not approve of.

    I agree - they don't stock the Guardian either. But let's not pretend principles trump commercial decisions - all that preaching is just a bit rich.

    And you can of course read the Mail online and Guardian online for free on their onboard wifi. Why spend £2 on the FT in the onboard shop when you can read the Mail onboard for free?! All those endless stories about Z list celebs sure shorten that long journey from London to Scotland!!
    Unlike Great Western, South Western and (i think) Southern Railways, wifi on Virgin Trains is not free. You have to log on and pay extra.

    Oddly enough, I have gone on the London-Glasgow train. Their bastard sockets didn't work and I was nursemaiding my laptop battery all the bloody way. I was quite vexed.
    Portable power banks. These days, I never leave home without one.
    I'm going to have to buy one, but I can't help finding the concept weird. Just like an airborne aircraft carrier is an aircraft that carries aircraft, a portable power bank is a battery that recharges batteries... :o
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 27,371
    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    brendan16 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Virgin have as much right to not sell the Mail as a baker has to not make a cake with a message on that they do not approve of.

    I agree - they don't stock the Guardian either. But let's not pretend principles trump commercial decisions - all that preaching is just a bit rich.

    And you can of course read the Mail online and Guardian online for free on their onboard wifi. Why spend £2 on the FT in the onboard shop when you can read the Mail onboard for free?! All those endless stories about Z list celebs sure shorten that long journey from London to Scotland!!
    Unlike Great Western, South Western and (i think) Southern Railways, wifi on Virgin Trains is not free. You have to log on and pay extra.

    Oddly enough, I have gone on the London-Glasgow train. Their bastard sockets didn't work and I was nursemaiding my laptop battery all the bloody way. I was quite vexed.
    Portable power banks. These days, I never leave home without one.
    I'm going to have to buy one, but I can't help finding the concept weird. Just like an airborne aircraft carrier is an aircraft that carries aircraft, a portable power bank is a battery that recharges batteries... :o
    I am waiting for RCS to come in and tell us his Chromebook battery lasts for so long he never has these problems...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 21,548

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    brendan16 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Virgin have as much right to not sell the Mail as a baker has to not make a cake with a message on that they do not approve of.

    I agree - they don't stock the Guardian either. But let's not pretend principles trump commercial decisions - all that preaching is just a bit rich.

    And you can of course read the Mail online and Guardian online for free on their onboard wifi. Why spend £2 on the FT in the onboard shop when you can read the Mail onboard for free?! All those endless stories about Z list celebs sure shorten that long journey from London to Scotland!!
    Unlike Great Western, South Western and (i think) Southern Railways, wifi on Virgin Trains is not free. You have to log on and pay extra.

    Oddly enough, I have gone on the London-Glasgow train. Their bastard sockets didn't work and I was nursemaiding my laptop battery all the bloody way. I was quite vexed.
    Portable power banks. These days, I never leave home without one.
    I'm going to have to buy one, but I can't help finding the concept weird. Just like an airborne aircraft carrier is an aircraft that carries aircraft, a portable power bank is a battery that recharges batteries... :o
    I am waiting for RCS to come in and tell us his Chromebook battery lasts for so long he never has these problems...
    You know, it's funny but my Pixelbook battery lasts so long, I never have these problems.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 9,640
    Curtice: He believes Labour’s revival under Jeremy Corbyn owes far more to young social liberals who would normally back the Lib Dems than to leftwing voters. And despite the evidence that Corbyn appears to be ignoring strong support for an anti-Brexit stance among Labour voters, Curtice thinks the apparent ambiguities in Labour’s approach on the EU may be useful.

    “It seems that they’re watching and waiting. And given the country is divided down the middle, arguably it is not a stupid position,” Curtice said.

    He said the crunch for Corbyn would come this spring when May needs to set out her position on a trade deal. Then, said Curtice, Corbyn will be forced to take a stand.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 1,409
    IanB2 said:

    Curtice: He believes Labour’s revival under Jeremy Corbyn owes far more to young social liberals who would normally back the Lib Dems than to leftwing voters.

    There's definitely something in that but I don't know if EU membership is a drop dead issue for the jeunesse dorée as it is for the frightened middle aged white men on the other side of the Leave/Remain schism.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 9,640
    Dura_Ace said:

    IanB2 said:

    Curtice: He believes Labour’s revival under Jeremy Corbyn owes far more to young social liberals who would normally back the Lib Dems than to leftwing voters.

    There's definitely something in that but I don't know if EU membership is a drop dead issue for the jeunesse dorée as it is for the frightened middle aged white men on the other side of the Leave/Remain schism.
    It's not the EU per se so much as a reminder that Labour is trying to hold together a coalition of younger urban liberal voters and the WWC (and ethnic minorities), and that the Brexit process is very likely to put this under severe strain at some point
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 13,655

    Confirmed the country has gone to the dogs and the public haven't got a clue....not talking about the rise of Commie Corbyn...

    Prosecco continued to be the strongest contender in the fizzy wine stakes, with 9.5 bottles of the Italian tipple selling for every bottle of champagne over Christmas and New Year.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5252703/Prosecco-popular-CHampagne-Christmas.html

    It tastes better and is a lot cheaper. What's not to like?
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 1,723

    Foxy said:

    The Daily Mail has the best Tabloid level coverage of medical issues. Not bad at all and far better than the Express, with its weekly trumpeting of miracle breakthroughs.

    My mother buys it, though usually just the Sunday.

    That's quite interesting. I always presumed their medical coverage was like the rest of their stuff, some times true, often sloppy with the facts, and always heavily spun.
    It is pretty rubbish, with the MMR story being a low point. Funnily enough they quoted me yesterday. They not only got my point wrong, they mispelt my name.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 9,640

    Confirmed the country has gone to the dogs and the public haven't got a clue....not talking about the rise of Commie Corbyn...

    Prosecco continued to be the strongest contender in the fizzy wine stakes, with 9.5 bottles of the Italian tipple selling for every bottle of champagne over Christmas and New Year.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5252703/Prosecco-popular-CHampagne-Christmas.html

    It tastes better and is a lot cheaper. What's not to like?
    Champagne is just poor over-acidic white wine disguised with bubbles, advertising and a premium price tag. Nowadays even English vineyards can do better.
  • rcs1000 said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    brendan16 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Virgin have as much right to not sell the Mail as a baker has to not make a cake with a message on that they do not approve of.

    I agree - they don't stock the Guardian either. But let's not pretend principles trump commercial decisions - all that preaching is just a bit rich.

    And you can of course read the Mail online and Guardian online for free on their onboard wifi. Why spend £2 on the FT in the onboard shop when you can read the Mail onboard for free?! All those endless stories about Z list celebs sure shorten that long journey from London to Scotland!!
    Unlike Great Western, South Western and (i think) Southern Railways, wifi on Virgin Trains is not free. You have to log on and pay extra.

    Oddly enough, I have gone on the London-Glasgow train. Their bastard sockets didn't work and I was nursemaiding my laptop battery all the bloody way. I was quite vexed.
    Portable power banks. These days, I never leave home without one.
    I'm going to have to buy one, but I can't help finding the concept weird. Just like an airborne aircraft carrier is an aircraft that carries aircraft, a portable power bank is a battery that recharges batteries... :o
    I am waiting for RCS to come in and tell us his Chromebook battery lasts for so long he never has these problems...
    You know, it's funny but my Pixelbook battery lasts so long, I never have these problems.
    My Asus Chromebook battery lasts for 12 hours. The only Windows device I now possess is my work laptop. With its bulk, (lack of speed) and old school battery it feels like something from the dark ages in comparison to the Chromebook.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 13,655
    rcs1000 said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    brendan16 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Virgin have as much right to not sell the Mail as a baker has to not make a cake with a message on that they do not approve of.

    I agree - they don't stock the Guardian either. But let's not pretend principles trump commercial decisions - all that preaching is just a bit rich.

    And you can of course read the Mail online and Guardian online for free on their onboard wifi. Why spend £2 on the FT in the onboard shop when you can read the Mail onboard for free?! All those endless stories about Z list celebs sure shorten that long journey from London to Scotland!!
    Unlike Great Western, South Western and (i think) Southern Railways, wifi on Virgin Trains is not free. You have to log on and pay extra.

    Oddly enough, I have gone on the London-Glasgow train. Their bastard sockets didn't work and I was nursemaiding my laptop battery all the bloody way. I was quite vexed.
    Portable power banks. These days, I never leave home without one.
    I'm going to have to buy one, but I can't help finding the concept weird. Just like an airborne aircraft carrier is an aircraft that carries aircraft, a portable power bank is a battery that recharges batteries... :o
    I am waiting for RCS to come in and tell us his Chromebook battery lasts for so long he never has these problems...
    You know, it's funny but my Pixelbook battery lasts so long, I never have these problems.
    I read a PaperBook on the way into work. Some of the ones I have have lasted more than 200 years without needing recharging.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,343

    rcs1000 said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    brendan16 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Virgin have as much right to not sell the Mail as a baker has to not make a cake with a message on that they do not approve of.

    I agree - they don't stock the Guardian either. But let's not pretend principles trump commercial decisions - all that preaching is just a bit rich.

    And you can of course read the Mail online and Guardian online for free on their onboard wifi. Why spend £2 on the FT in the onboard shop when you can read the Mail onboard for free?! All those endless stories about Z list celebs sure shorten that long journey from London to Scotland!!
    Unlike Great Western, South Western and (i think) Southern Railways, wifi on Virgin Trains is not free. You have to log on and pay extra.

    Oddly enough, I have gone on the London-Glasgow train. Their bastard sockets didn't work and I was nursemaiding my laptop battery all the bloody way. I was quite vexed.
    Portable power banks. These days, I never leave home without one.
    I'm going to have to buy one, but I can't help finding the concept weird. Just like an airborne aircraft carrier is an aircraft that carries aircraft, a portable power bank is a battery that recharges batteries... :o
    I am waiting for RCS to come in and tell us his Chromebook battery lasts for so long he never has these problems...
    You know, it's funny but my Pixelbook battery lasts so long, I never have these problems.
    I read a PaperBook on the way into work. Some of the ones I have have lasted more than 200 years without needing recharging.
    Nah, can’t see that idea catching on.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 10,725

    Confirmed the country has gone to the dogs and the public haven't got a clue....not talking about the rise of Commie Corbyn...

    Prosecco continued to be the strongest contender in the fizzy wine stakes, with 9.5 bottles of the Italian tipple selling for every bottle of champagne over Christmas and New Year.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5252703/Prosecco-popular-CHampagne-Christmas.html

    I am reminded of the story I read somewhere of the Scottish gamekeeper who retired after 40 years exemplary serivice on a large estate and the grateful Laird gave him a champagne party.

    About an hour later the guest of honour was seen, somewhat downcast, whispering to the butler. When asked whjat the matter was he said he was asking for whisky, as ‘he wsn’t keen on these Continental mineral waters.'
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 5,654

    Whisper it, but the Trump belligerence might just be getting results with North Korea..... They seem to have blinked first.

    Kim wants the bomb so that he doesn't end up like Ghadafi.
    It looks like he's got it and shown the world (mainly Trump) that he has. He may be mad but he's not mad enough to try a first strike on any US territory, so he can afford to send a team to the winter Olympics and maybe talk to South Korea leadership. It helps Kim with China to cool things down.
    Tell me again what Trump's belligerence has achieved.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,419
    IanB2 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    IanB2 said:

    Curtice: He believes Labour’s revival under Jeremy Corbyn owes far more to young social liberals who would normally back the Lib Dems than to leftwing voters.

    There's definitely something in that but I don't know if EU membership is a drop dead issue for the jeunesse dorée as it is for the frightened middle aged white men on the other side of the Leave/Remain schism.
    It's not the EU per se so much as a reminder that Labour is trying to hold together a coalition of younger urban liberal voters and the WWC (and ethnic minorities), and that the Brexit process is very likely to put this under severe strain at some point
    The internal stresses on Labour's happy house are currently better papered over, but far more structural than those in the Conservatives. If someone were to do a proper structural survey the next time Labour gets puts on the market.....
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,948

    rcs1000 said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    brendan16 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Virgin have as much right to not sell the Mail as a baker has to not make a cake with a message on that they do not approve of.

    I agree - they don't stock the Guardian either. But let's not pretend principles trump commercial decisions - all that preaching is just a bit rich.

    And you can of course read the Mail online and Guardian online for free on their onboard wifi. Why spend £2 on the FT in the onboard shop when you can read the Mail onboard for free?! All those endless stories about Z list celebs sure shorten that long journey from London to Scotland!!
    Unlike Great Western, South Western and (i think) Southern Railways, wifi on Virgin Trains is not free. You have to log on and pay extra.

    Oddly enough, I have gone on the London-Glasgow train. Their bastard sockets didn't work and I was nursemaiding my laptop battery all the bloody way. I was quite vexed.
    Portable power banks. These days, I never leave home without one.
    I'm going to have to buy one, but I can't help finding the concept weird. Just like an airborne aircraft carrier is an aircraft that carries aircraft, a portable power bank is a battery that recharges batteries... :o
    I am waiting for RCS to come in and tell us his Chromebook battery lasts for so long he never has these problems...
    You know, it's funny but my Pixelbook battery lasts so long, I never have these problems.
    I read a PaperBook on the way into work. Some of the ones I have have lasted more than 200 years without needing recharging.
    What are the monthly payments?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,419

    Whisper it, but the Trump belligerence might just be getting results with North Korea..... They seem to have blinked first.

    Kim wants the bomb so that he doesn't end up like Ghadafi.
    It looks like he's got it and shown the world (mainly Trump) that he has. He may be mad but he's not mad enough to try a first strike on any US territory, so he can afford to send a team to the winter Olympics and maybe talk to South Korea leadership. It helps Kim with China to cool things down.
    Tell me again what Trump's belligerence has achieved.
    The North Koreans got the Bomb on Obama's watch. You know, that nice Mr. Obama.

    Trump has to try and clear up Obama's mess.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 715


    The North Koreans got the Bomb on Obama's watch. You know, that nice Mr. Obama.

    Their first test was in 2006, midway through Bush Jr's second term.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,419
    Andrew said:


    The North Koreans got the Bomb on Obama's watch. You know, that nice Mr. Obama.

    Their first test was in 2006, midway through Bush Jr's second term.
    OK, perhaps better stated that the North Korean ambition to get to the point where they could lob a nuke at the US happened on Obama's watch. He had 8 solid years to do something about it. With no distraction of 9/11 and Middle East wars.

    History will not be kind to Obama on this issue.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 1,742
    edited January 10

    Confirmed the country has gone to the dogs and the public haven't got a clue....not talking about the rise of Commie Corbyn...

    Prosecco continued to be the strongest contender in the fizzy wine stakes, with 9.5 bottles of the Italian tipple selling for every bottle of champagne over Christmas and New Year.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5252703/Prosecco-popular-CHampagne-Christmas.html

    Truly we are entering the end times? but surely it is mostly the squeeze on pockets. Prosecco is just about the cheapest fizzy wine, Cheaper than Cava, Australian or NZ fizz or champagne. It is pretty dreadful thin acidic stuff. It is the 8 Ace of the wine world.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,419
    Foxy said:

    Confirmed the country has gone to the dogs and the public haven't got a clue....not talking about the rise of Commie Corbyn...

    Prosecco continued to be the strongest contender in the fizzy wine stakes, with 9.5 bottles of the Italian tipple selling for every bottle of champagne over Christmas and New Year.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5252703/Prosecco-popular-CHampagne-Christmas.html

    Truly we are entering the end times? but surely it is mostly the squeeze on pockets. Prosecco is just about the cheapest fizzy wine, Cheaper than Cava, Australian or NZ fizz or champagne. It is pretty dreadful thin acidic stuff. It is the 8 Ace of the wine world.

    The wife calls it The Devil's Piss. (That said, she will rarely say no to a glass!)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 41,809
    edited January 10
    Good morning, everyone.

    Nice cartoon, though I fear it's been slightly undercut by the (very) recent rapprochement [well, negotiations, at least].

    Edited extra bit: being pure and virtuous, I don't drink much. Of stuff I've tried, wine is not high on my list of preferences.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 41,809
    Mr. Mark, sounds like Lady Whiteadder. "Drink is urine from the last leper in Hell!"
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 3,792

    Andrew said:


    The North Koreans got the Bomb on Obama's watch. You know, that nice Mr. Obama.

    Their first test was in 2006, midway through Bush Jr's second term.
    OK, perhaps better stated that the North Korean ambition to get to the point where they could lob a nuke at the US happened on Obama's watch. He had 8 solid years to do something about it. With no distraction of 9/11 and Middle East wars.

    History will not be kind to Obama on this issue.
    Your determination to be positive about Trump and negative about Obama is admirable.
    Doubtless Trump has inherited a terrible situation - but so did Obama.

    Personally I don’t see that there are any easy solutions, or even difficult ones really, if you accept that was against a country with a nuclear weapon is unthinkable.

    Arguably one big mistake came in the 1990s when the US did not honour the deal Jimmy Carter did.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/world/asia/trump-north-korea-threat.amp.html
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 1,742
    edited January 10

    Foxy said:

    Confirmed the country has gone to the dogs and the public haven't got a clue....not talking about the rise of Commie Corbyn...

    Prosecco continued to be the strongest contender in the fizzy wine stakes, with 9.5 bottles of the Italian tipple selling for every bottle of champagne over Christmas and New Year.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5252703/Prosecco-popular-CHampagne-Christmas.html

    Truly we are entering the end times? but surely it is mostly the squeeze on pockets. Prosecco is just about the cheapest fizzy wine, Cheaper than Cava, Australian or NZ fizz or champagne. It is pretty dreadful thin acidic stuff. It is the 8 Ace of the wine world.

    The wife calls it The Devil's Piss. (That said, she will rarely say no to a glass!)
    Mrs Fox quite likes it, but perhaps I am just getting to the grumpy old man stage of life. I have never particularly been a fan of sparkling wine, and increasingly am going off still wines too as I find them disappointing.

    On the other hand, my inner hipster may be showing as I rather like craft beer. Thornbridge is my favourite.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,086

    IanB2 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    IanB2 said:

    Curtice: He believes Labour’s revival under Jeremy Corbyn owes far more to young social liberals who would normally back the Lib Dems than to leftwing voters.

    There's definitely something in that but I don't know if EU membership is a drop dead issue for the jeunesse dorée as it is for the frightened middle aged white men on the other side of the Leave/Remain schism.
    It's not the EU per se so much as a reminder that Labour is trying to hold together a coalition of younger urban liberal voters and the WWC (and ethnic minorities), and that the Brexit process is very likely to put this under severe strain at some point
    The internal stresses on Labour's happy house are currently better papered over, but far more structural than those in the Conservatives. If someone were to do a proper structural survey the next time Labour gets puts on the market.....
    Increasing Labour Party membership, to 650k plus increasing, while the Tories are supposedly 70k minus and decreasing. Labour constituency and branch parties, long defunct and ignored by HQ now being reconstituted all over the country, Tory constituency offices and clubs closing down through lack of members. Hmm! Let me think about this.....
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,086

    Whisper it, but the Trump belligerence might just be getting results with North Korea..... They seem to have blinked first.

    Kim wants the bomb so that he doesn't end up like Ghadafi.
    It looks like he's got it and shown the world (mainly Trump) that he has. He may be mad but he's not mad enough to try a first strike on any US territory, so he can afford to send a team to the winter Olympics and maybe talk to South Korea leadership. It helps Kim with China to cool things down.
    Tell me again what Trump's belligerence has achieved.
    The North Koreans got the Bomb on Obama's watch. You know, that nice Mr. Obama.

    Trump has to try and clear up Obama's mess.
    When Trump stops eating his own sh*t...
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 1,723
    IanB2 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    IanB2 said:

    Curtice: He believes Labour’s revival under Jeremy Corbyn owes far more to young social liberals who would normally back the Lib Dems than to leftwing voters.

    There's definitely something in that but I don't know if EU membership is a drop dead issue for the jeunesse dorée as it is for the frightened middle aged white men on the other side of the Leave/Remain schism.
    It's not the EU per se so much as a reminder that Labour is trying to hold together a coalition of younger urban liberal voters and the WWC (and ethnic minorities), and that the Brexit process is very likely to put this under severe strain at some point
    Maybe so, but will it actually be severe strain? The WWC aren't that different to urban liberals. And while they may be in favour of Brexit when asked the question is isolation is it really so important to them as to make them switch to the Conservatives over it? Insofar as the 2017 election tells us anything, it is that maybe a few did but not that many. I'd say it is at least likely that habitual Labour voters who switched to the Conservatives over Brexit are quite likely to start drifting back to where they were before.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,424
    edited January 10
    I knew John Radford (RIP) the renowned expert on Spanish Wines. (the Wines of Rioja was, I think, one of his titles). He wisely told me eons back that a £10 bottle of Rioja was 10 times better than a £5 bottle, the reasoning being that in a £5 bottle most of the cost was taken up with taxes and duties. I reckon the same goes for Prosecco and any other wine for that matter, but there is always the exception with some Lidl and Aldi wines.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 5,654

    Whisper it, but the Trump belligerence might just be getting results with North Korea..... They seem to have blinked first.

    Kim wants the bomb so that he doesn't end up like Ghadafi.
    It looks like he's got it and shown the world (mainly Trump) that he has. He may be mad but he's not mad enough to try a first strike on any US territory, so he can afford to send a team to the winter Olympics and maybe talk to South Korea leadership. It helps Kim with China to cool things down.
    Tell me again what Trump's belligerence has achieved.
    The North Koreans got the Bomb on Obama's watch. You know, that nice Mr. Obama.

    Trump has to try and clear up Obama's mess.
    You seem to have totally missed the post you are supposedly replying to, so here it is again:

    Kim wants the bomb so that he doesn't end up like Ghadafi.
    It looks like he's got it and shown the world (mainly Trump) that he has. He may be mad but he's not mad enough to try a first strike on any US territory, so he can afford to send a team to the winter Olympics and maybe talk to South Korea leadership. It helps Kim with China to cool things down.
    Tell me again what Trump's belligerence has achieved.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 3,792
    Great article from Dani Rodrik - in defence of economic populism:

    “We should constantly be wary of populism that stifles political pluralism and undermines liberal democratic norms. Political populism is a menace to be avoided at all costs. Economic populism, by contrast, is occasionally necessary. Indeed, at such times, it may be the only way to forestall its much more dangerous political cousin.”

    https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/defense-of-economic-populism-by-dani-rodrik-2018-01
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 1,742
    rkrkrk said:

    Andrew said:


    The North Koreans got the Bomb on Obama's watch. You know, that nice Mr. Obama.

    Their first test was in 2006, midway through Bush Jr's second term.
    OK, perhaps better stated that the North Korean ambition to get to the point where they could lob a nuke at the US happened on Obama's watch. He had 8 solid years to do something about it. With no distraction of 9/11 and Middle East wars.

    History will not be kind to Obama on this issue.
    Your determination to be positive about Trump and negative about Obama is admirable.
    Doubtless Trump has inherited a terrible situation - but so did Obama.

    Personally I don’t see that there are any easy solutions, or even difficult ones really, if you accept that was against a country with a nuclear weapon is unthinkable.

    Arguably one big mistake came in the 1990s when the US did not honour the deal Jimmy Carter did.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/world/asia/trump-north-korea-threat.amp.html
    Surely, all the Presidents have pursued the same line on North Korea, albeit with various degrees of bellicosity. They have aimed at containment.

    PRK is a Cold War hangover, after the tumultuous fall of the Communists in Russia. China and Vietnam are nominally Communist, but really just autocracies with increasingly successful capitalist economies. Cuba is sidelined and withering on the vine, and authentic Communism is history everywhere else, apart from North Korea.

    It was not, and even now is a reasonable expectation that the Kim regime will collapse in time in internal revolution or coup.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 27,653
    Demos focus groups among predominantly 50+ white working class:

    Theresa May incites quite a high level of sympathy for her position, and a sense that she is not being adequately supported by her colleagues. But others were less convinced of whether she was genuine in her claim to want to tackle ‘burning injustices’, and participants consistently expressed both confusion and frustration at having been asked to head to the polls again in June 2017.

    They’ll all stab her in the back, instead of getting behind her and saying, right what are we doing this week?
    I just don’t like this Prime Minister. I just think she’s totally out of touch with people. Just terrible! She just comes across as weirdly sinister.
    I actually don’t mind Theresa May; I think she’s actually quite nice.
    She’s been better than I thought she’d be. I thought she’d be the same old as Maggie Thatcher.
    I don’t know why she did, why she had the election and that, I don’t really understand what that was about you know.
    Everything right now has been exacerbated by Mrs May calling for an election that was totally unnecessary.
    I think at least with Theresa May at least she was willing to take the job on. She seems to have a bit of backbone, don’t she?
    She’s not the best of leaders but then again there’s not that much around.



    https://www.demos.co.uk/project/citizens-voices/
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Confirmed the country has gone to the dogs and the public haven't got a clue....not talking about the rise of Commie Corbyn...

    Prosecco continued to be the strongest contender in the fizzy wine stakes, with 9.5 bottles of the Italian tipple selling for every bottle of champagne over Christmas and New Year.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5252703/Prosecco-popular-CHampagne-Christmas.html

    Truly we are entering the end times? but surely it is mostly the squeeze on pockets. Prosecco is just about the cheapest fizzy wine, Cheaper than Cava, Australian or NZ fizz or champagne. It is pretty dreadful thin acidic stuff. It is the 8 Ace of the wine world.

    The wife calls it The Devil's Piss. (That said, she will rarely say no to a glass!)
    Mrs Fox quite likes it, but perhaps I am just getting to the grumpy old man stage of life. I have never particularly been a fan of sparkling wine, and increasingly am going off still wines too as I find them disappointing.

    On the other hand, my inner hipster may be showing as I rather like craft beer. Thornbridge is my favourite.
    Dr Fox, we're truly living in a golden age here in the Rural Heart Of England for craft beer. We've got great local breweries and little independent pubs opening up. If you are ever in Loughborough, try the Needle and Pin pub in The Rushes. It's tiny but has an amazing selection of craft ales and ciders.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 1,742

    IanB2 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    IanB2 said:

    Curtice: He believes Labour’s revival under Jeremy Corbyn owes far more to young social liberals who would normally back the Lib Dems than to leftwing voters.

    There's definitely something in that but I don't know if EU membership is a drop dead issue for the jeunesse dorée as it is for the frightened middle aged white men on the other side of the Leave/Remain schism.
    It's not the EU per se so much as a reminder that Labour is trying to hold together a coalition of younger urban liberal voters and the WWC (and ethnic minorities), and that the Brexit process is very likely to put this under severe strain at some point
    Maybe so, but will it actually be severe strain? The WWC aren't that different to urban liberals. And while they may be in favour of Brexit when asked the question is isolation is it really so important to them as to make them switch to the Conservatives over it? Insofar as the 2017 election tells us anything, it is that maybe a few did but not that many. I'd say it is at least likely that habitual Labour voters who switched to the Conservatives over Brexit are quite likely to start drifting back to where they were before.
    I am not convinced that it will be a strain. Not least because at the post Brexit election the deal will be done, or we have a WTO Brexit. Labour EU policy will be a dead letter.

    Austerity will be a continuing issue, and the increasingly anti immigrant rhetoric of the right will keep most BME Britons voting Labour. The urban liberal europhiles are more culturally attached to Europe than economically, so the exact terms of Brexit do not matter much. All deals are bad deals.

    Labour can hold its coalition together a lot longer. Indeed one of the more interesting political moves of the last week has been largely uncommented. While TM has been rearranging her deckchairs, Corbyn has organised his Red Guards for a Cultural Revolution within the Party.

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 12,778
    Foxy said:

    Confirmed the country has gone to the dogs and the public haven't got a clue....not talking about the rise of Commie Corbyn...

    Prosecco continued to be the strongest contender in the fizzy wine stakes, with 9.5 bottles of the Italian tipple selling for every bottle of champagne over Christmas and New Year.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5252703/Prosecco-popular-CHampagne-Christmas.html

    Truly we are entering the end times? but surely it is mostly the squeeze on pockets. Prosecco is just about the cheapest fizzy wine, Cheaper than Cava, Australian or NZ fizz or champagne. It is pretty dreadful thin acidic stuff. It is the 8 Ace of the wine world.

    Cheaper than Cava?

    I've always found it to be more expensive than Cava and have a far better reputation than Cava. But considerably cheaper than Champagne.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,948
    edited January 10
    The rise of prosecco is a good thing.

    The snobbery about French culture, cuisine and products is a stupid anachronism.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 20,653

    Mr. Mark, sounds like Lady Whiteadder. "Drink is urine from the last leper in Hell!"

    Theological arguments in those days were remarkably scatological. Luther was described by an opponent as a "devil's turd" to which he replied "How is your mother's syphilis?". Thomas More accused Luther of sucking worms from the devil's arse. A famous print, How Monks Are Born, showed a devil sitting on a gibbet, defecating monks into existence.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,796
    viewcode said:

    brendan16 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Virgin have as much right to not sell the Mail as a baker has to not make a cake with a message on that they do not approve of.

    I agree - they don't stock the Guardian either. But let's not pretend principles trump commercial decisions - all that preaching is just a bit rich.

    And you can of course read the Mail online and Guardian online for free on their onboard wifi. Why spend £2 on the FT in the onboard shop when you can read the Mail onboard for free?! All those endless stories about Z list celebs sure shorten that long journey from London to Scotland!!
    Unlike Great Western, South Western and (i think) Southern Railways, wifi on Virgin Trains is not free. You have to log on and pay extra.

    Oddly enough, I have gone on the London-Glasgow train. Their bastard sockets didn't work and I was nursemaiding my laptop battery all the bloody way. I was quite vexed.
    It was free recently when I travelled on Virgin. You just had to log on.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 41,809
    edited January 10
    Mr. F, to be fair, a very large amount of humour (and insults) is still based on bodily functions, sexual immorality, and genital mockery.

    I quite like the old Gladstone/Disraeli exchange:
    G - I predict, sir, that you shall die either of hanging or some vile disease.
    D - That depends upon whether I embrace your morals or your mistress.

    Edited extra bit: also reminds me of Sir Thomas Blount, a traitor from about 600 years ago whose entrails had been removed. As he sat to watch them burnt he was asked if he wanted a drink and replied, "No, for I do not know where I should put it."
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 23,491

    Demos focus groups among predominantly 50+ white working class:

    Theresa May incites quite a high level of sympathy for her position, and a sense that she is not being adequately supported by her colleagues. But others were less convinced of whether she was genuine in her claim to want to tackle ‘burning injustices’, and participants consistently expressed both confusion and frustration at having been asked to head to the polls again in June 2017.

    They’ll all stab her in the back, instead of getting behind her and saying, right what are we doing this week?
    I just don’t like this Prime Minister. I just think she’s totally out of touch with people. Just terrible! She just comes across as weirdly sinister.
    I actually don’t mind Theresa May; I think she’s actually quite nice.
    She’s been better than I thought she’d be. I thought she’d be the same old as Maggie Thatcher.
    I don’t know why she did, why she had the election and that, I don’t really understand what that was about you know.
    Everything right now has been exacerbated by Mrs May calling for an election that was totally unnecessary.
    I think at least with Theresa May at least she was willing to take the job on. She seems to have a bit of backbone, don’t she?
    She’s not the best of leaders but then again there’s not that much around.



    https://www.demos.co.uk/project/citizens-voices/

    That's an absolutely fascinating read.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 1,742

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Confirmed the country has gone to the dogs and the public haven't got a clue....not talking about the rise of Commie Corbyn...

    Prosecco continued to be the strongest contender in the fizzy wine stakes, with 9.5 bottles of the Italian tipple selling for every bottle of champagne over Christmas and New Year.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5252703/Prosecco-popular-CHampagne-Christmas.html

    Truly we are entering the end times? but surely it is mostly the squeeze on pockets. Prosecco is just about the cheapest fizzy wine, Cheaper than Cava, Australian or NZ fizz or champagne. It is pretty dreadful thin acidic stuff. It is the 8 Ace of the wine world.

    The wife calls it The Devil's Piss. (That said, she will rarely say no to a glass!)
    Mrs Fox quite likes it, but perhaps I am just getting to the grumpy old man stage of life. I have never particularly been a fan of sparkling wine, and increasingly am going off still wines too as I find them disappointing.

    On the other hand, my inner hipster may be showing as I rather like craft beer. Thornbridge is my favourite.
    Dr Fox, we're truly living in a golden age here in the Rural Heart Of England for craft beer. We've got great local breweries and little independent pubs opening up. If you are ever in Loughborough, try the Needle and Pin pub in The Rushes. It's tiny but has an amazing selection of craft ales and ciders.
    Sounds interesting! Not an easy bus ride home, and craft beer and driving are not a good combination. I wouldnt want to need to call out your services.

    Did you decide against the Ambulance service move in the end?

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 12,778

    Andrew said:


    The North Koreans got the Bomb on Obama's watch. You know, that nice Mr. Obama.

    Their first test was in 2006, midway through Bush Jr's second term.
    OK, perhaps better stated that the North Korean ambition to get to the point where they could lob a nuke at the US happened on Obama's watch. He had 8 solid years to do something about it. With no distraction of 9/11 and Middle East wars.

    History will not be kind to Obama on this issue.
    What do you propose that Obama could or should have done about North Korea?
    For that matter what should Bush have done?
    Or Clinton?

    The reality is that North Korea is and long has been untouchable militarily for one reason - they have enough firepower to retaliate and cause millions of deaths. Even without nuclear weapons, even without intercontinental ballistic missiles. They have enough artillery pointed at Seoul (population 10 million) to cause tremendous damage and fatalities within minutes. That's without considering the rest of the South Korea or Japan that is in reach of North Korea's conventional armed forces.

    Would you be prepared to start a military conflict that would almost certainly leave millions of our allies dead or injured?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,796

    Foxy said:

    Confirmed the country has gone to the dogs and the public haven't got a clue....not talking about the rise of Commie Corbyn...

    Prosecco continued to be the strongest contender in the fizzy wine stakes, with 9.5 bottles of the Italian tipple selling for every bottle of champagne over Christmas and New Year.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5252703/Prosecco-popular-CHampagne-Christmas.html

    Truly we are entering the end times? but surely it is mostly the squeeze on pockets. Prosecco is just about the cheapest fizzy wine, Cheaper than Cava, Australian or NZ fizz or champagne. It is pretty dreadful thin acidic stuff. It is the 8 Ace of the wine world.

    Cheaper than Cava?

    I've always found it to be more expensive than Cava and have a far better reputation than Cava. But considerably cheaper than Champagne.
    Certainly better than CAVA and a decent bottle is better than most champagnes in my humble opinion.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 12,778
    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    Confirmed the country has gone to the dogs and the public haven't got a clue....not talking about the rise of Commie Corbyn...

    Prosecco continued to be the strongest contender in the fizzy wine stakes, with 9.5 bottles of the Italian tipple selling for every bottle of champagne over Christmas and New Year.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5252703/Prosecco-popular-CHampagne-Christmas.html

    Truly we are entering the end times? but surely it is mostly the squeeze on pockets. Prosecco is just about the cheapest fizzy wine, Cheaper than Cava, Australian or NZ fizz or champagne. It is pretty dreadful thin acidic stuff. It is the 8 Ace of the wine world.

    Cheaper than Cava?

    I've always found it to be more expensive than Cava and have a far better reputation than Cava. But considerably cheaper than Champagne.
    Certainly better than CAVA and a decent bottle is better than most champagnes in my humble opinion.
    Fully agreed.

    Far better value for money than Champagne too.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 9,459
    edited January 10
    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    Confirmed the country has gone to the dogs and the public haven't got a clue....not talking about the rise of Commie Corbyn...

    Prosecco continued to be the strongest contender in the fizzy wine stakes, with 9.5 bottles of the Italian tipple selling for every bottle of champagne over Christmas and New Year.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5252703/Prosecco-popular-CHampagne-Christmas.html

    Truly we are entering the end times? but surely it is mostly the squeeze on pockets. Prosecco is just about the cheapest fizzy wine, Cheaper than Cava, Australian or NZ fizz or champagne. It is pretty dreadful thin acidic stuff. It is the 8 Ace of the wine world.

    Cheaper than Cava?

    I've always found it to be more expensive than Cava and have a far better reputation than Cava. But considerably cheaper than Champagne.
    Certainly better than CAVA and a decent bottle is better than most champagnes in my humble opinion.
    Anything that isn't Champers is too sweet for me. And if you shop around you can get a half decent Champgne for £10-12 most of the year..
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 5,229

    Foxy said:

    Confirmed the country has gone to the dogs and the public haven't got a clue....not talking about the rise of Commie Corbyn...

    Prosecco continued to be the strongest contender in the fizzy wine stakes, with 9.5 bottles of the Italian tipple selling for every bottle of champagne over Christmas and New Year.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5252703/Prosecco-popular-CHampagne-Christmas.html

    Truly we are entering the end times? but surely it is mostly the squeeze on pockets. Prosecco is just about the cheapest fizzy wine, Cheaper than Cava, Australian or NZ fizz or champagne. It is pretty dreadful thin acidic stuff. It is the 8 Ace of the wine world.

    Cheaper than Cava?

    I've always found it to be more expensive than Cava and have a far better reputation than Cava. But considerably cheaper than Champagne.
    Cava is methode champenoise, prosecco is still white put through a sodastream - which you'd have thought would be cheaper. People who think they don't like champagne often don't like cheap champagne and haven't tried expensive - the spread between good and bad is enormous.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 5,229

    Whisper it, but the Trump belligerence might just be getting results with North Korea..... They seem to have blinked first.

    Kim wants the bomb so that he doesn't end up like Ghadafi.
    It looks like he's got it and shown the world (mainly Trump) that he has. He may be mad but he's not mad enough to try a first strike on any US territory, so he can afford to send a team to the winter Olympics and maybe talk to South Korea leadership. It helps Kim with China to cool things down.
    Tell me again what Trump's belligerence has achieved.
    The North Koreans got the Bomb on Obama's watch. You know, that nice Mr. Obama.

    Trump has to try and clear up Obama's mess.
    You seem to have totally missed the post you are supposedly replying to, so here it is again:

    Kim wants the bomb so that he doesn't end up like Ghadafi.
    It looks like he's got it and shown the world (mainly Trump) that he has. He may be mad but he's not mad enough to try a first strike on any US territory, so he can afford to send a team to the winter Olympics and maybe talk to South Korea leadership. It helps Kim with China to cool things down.
    Tell me again what Trump's belligerence has achieved.
    Hoity toity, and what do you know about how mad Kim is? Is there consensus on the point among 97% of psychiatrists?
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,424
    All the fizzy whites are vastly overrated imho. Give me a decent bottle of red any day. Champagne is sold as much for glamour as anything else
    Mortimer said:

    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    Confirmed the country has gone to the dogs and the public haven't got a clue....not talking about the rise of Commie Corbyn...

    Prosecco continued to be the strongest contender in the fizzy wine stakes, with 9.5 bottles of the Italian tipple selling for every bottle of champagne over Christmas and New Year.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5252703/Prosecco-popular-CHampagne-Christmas.html

    Truly we are entering the end times? but surely it is mostly the squeeze on pockets. Prosecco is just about the cheapest fizzy wine, Cheaper than Cava, Australian or NZ fizz or champagne. It is pretty dreadful thin acidic stuff. It is the 8 Ace of the wine world.

    Cheaper than Cava?

    I've always found it to be more expensive than Cava and have a far better reputation than Cava. But considerably cheaper than Champagne.
    Certainly better than CAVA and a decent bottle is better than most champagnes in my humble opinion.
    Anything that isn't Champers is too sweet for me. And if you shop around you can get a half decent Champgne for £10-12 most of the year..
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Confirmed the country has gone to the dogs and the public haven't got a clue....not talking about the rise of Commie Corbyn...

    Prosecco continued to be the strongest contender in the fizzy wine stakes, with 9.5 bottles of the Italian tipple selling for every bottle of champagne over Christmas and New Year.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5252703/Prosecco-popular-CHampagne-Christmas.html

    Truly we are entering the end times? but surely it is mostly the squeeze on pockets. Prosecco is just about the cheapest fizzy wine, Cheaper than Cava, Australian or NZ fizz or champagne. It is pretty dreadful thin acidic stuff. It is the 8 Ace of the wine world.

    The wife calls it The Devil's Piss. (That said, she will rarely say no to a glass!)
    Mrs Fox quite likes it, but perhaps I am just getting to the grumpy old man stage of life. I have never particularly been a fan of sparkling wine, and increasingly am going off still wines too as I find them disappointing.

    On the other hand, my inner hipster may be showing as I rather like craft beer. Thornbridge is my favourite.
    Dr Fox, we're truly living in a golden age here in the Rural Heart Of England for craft beer. We've got great local breweries and little independent pubs opening up. If you are ever in Loughborough, try the Needle and Pin pub in The Rushes. It's tiny but has an amazing selection of craft ales and ciders.
    Sounds interesting! Not an easy bus ride home, and craft beer and driving are not a good combination. I wouldnt want to need to call out your services.

    Did you decide against the Ambulance service move in the end?

    It never came off- it was just too big a jump politically for the NHS and Fire Service to actually do something sensible and combine their resources. It's got as far as us buying bespoke glorified vans with a bit of firefighting/rescue capability and a sort of foldable bed that could be used as patient transport, but it's far too political to use it and no one wants to fund it. Still, it enables out SMT to cut firefighter numbers, and still technically have the same number of appliances available.....
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,948
    Babycham.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 5,229
    Jonathan said:

    Babycham.

    Nothing sparkles like a.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,796
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Foxy said:

    Confirmed the country has gone to the dogs and the public haven't got a clue....not talking about the rise of Commie Corbyn...

    Prosecco continued to be the strongest contender in the fizzy wine stakes, with 9.5 bottles of the Italian tipple selling for every bottle of champagne over Christmas and New Year.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5252703/Prosecco-popular-CHampagne-Christmas.html

    Truly we are entering the end times? but surely it is mostly the squeeze on pockets. Prosecco is just about the cheapest fizzy wine, Cheaper than Cava, Australian or NZ fizz or champagne. It is pretty dreadful thin acidic stuff. It is the 8 Ace of the wine world.

    Cheaper than Cava?

    I've always found it to be more expensive than Cava and have a far better reputation than Cava. But considerably cheaper than Champagne.
    Cava is methode champenoise, prosecco is still white put through a sodastream - which you'd have thought would be cheaper. People who think they don't like champagne often don't like cheap champagne and haven't tried expensive - the spread between good and bad is enormous.
    I like Veuve Clicquot but in the main I find Prosecco much more to my taste and certainly better value. As you say lots of bad Champagne about but not had many bad Prosecco's.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 5,870
    Scott_P said:
    Labour commit to keeping the UK in Narnia is just about as accrurate
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 10,070

    Demos focus groups among predominantly 50+ white working class:

    Theresa May incites quite a high level of sympathy for her position, and a sense that she is not being adequately supported by her colleagues. But others were less convinced of whether she was genuine in her claim to want to tackle ‘burning injustices’, and participants consistently expressed both confusion and frustration at having been asked to head to the polls again in June 2017.

    They’ll all stab her in the back, instead of getting behind her and saying, right what are we doing this week?
    I just don’t like this Prime Minister. I just think she’s totally out of touch with people. Just terrible! She just comes across as weirdly sinister.
    I actually don’t mind Theresa May; I think she’s actually quite nice.
    She’s been better than I thought she’d be. I thought she’d be the same old as Maggie Thatcher.
    I don’t know why she did, why she had the election and that, I don’t really understand what that was about you know.
    Everything right now has been exacerbated by Mrs May calling for an election that was totally unnecessary.
    I think at least with Theresa May at least she was willing to take the job on. She seems to have a bit of backbone, don’t she?
    She’s not the best of leaders but then again there’s not that much around.



    https://www.demos.co.uk/project/citizens-voices/

    That's an absolutely fascinating read.
    ' Many participants also discuss the erosion of opportunities for progression within occupations, compromising avenues for social mobility, particularly between the working and middle classes. There was also a feeling that systems were becoming rigged against ordinary workers, with the Government and private sector alike privileging some groups of citizens, or ‘big business’, over others. '

    The Conservatives forgot about aspiration and Labour forgot about fairness.
This discussion has been closed.