Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Farage’s surprise backing could put a second Brexit referendum

135

Comments

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 16,094
    dyingswan said:

    And while we are at it, please can we have a second referendum in Wales.I suggest the following wording. Do you support the continued decimation of health and education services in Wales by the failed and disastrous experiment of devolution The Labour Party ?

    Fixed
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 7,365

    dr_spyn said:

    NHS Winter crisis hasn't turned into Corbyn's trump card.

    Bumping along with a 1% polling lead.

    All that noise and so little, so very little, heat.

    especially with the Night of the Short Straws overkill about the reshuffle.
    The irony is that before the reshuffle, the blue team was arguing with those of us who predicted it would be a damp squib because the PM had very little room to manoeuvre: the arithmetic had not changed since the election.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 10,190
    brendan16 said:

    murali_s said:

    A second referendum would be close - the young will probably vote this time and may swing it to remain.

    I am reminded of the Winchester by-election in 1997. A 2-vote margin in the general election became a 21,556 vote majority in the by-election.
    Yep. The voters would say "What part of "we are going to Brexit" don't you understand?"

    People seem to forget that as recently as June 2017, 86% voted for parties who said they would implement Brexit.
    It was Nigel Farages wailing and whinging for ages about the result of the first referendum that caused the second.
    Yes, the Winchester result suggests it would be a walkover, but with a properly organised Remain campaign which could polnt out that yes, things are likely to get harder...... standing in the Non-EU queue to get onto the Canary Islands is demonstrably a distinct possibility, and more young people voting Winchester might turn out to be an abberation.
    Admittedly Farage waited 20 years after 1975 to call for one - not 20 minutes - and we didn't of course vote to remain in the EU in 1975 as it wasn't created until 1992. The common market was a totally different and small scale enterprise involving 9 economically similar nations.p

    Perhaps we need a new fixed term referendum act - we can only have one referendum on EU membership every 40 years.
    A creation of which we were part, and whose extension we (well MT) actively championed.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 8,879
    I suppose the Chinese delegation might remind McDonnell that socialism has failed, and they don't want it revived in one of their export markets.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 13,322

    I see Aaron Banks has joined Nigel with a call for a second referendum.

    https://order-order.com/2018/01/11/banks-flip-flop-on-second-referendum/

    Leave needs to squash this pair quickly - label them saboteurs , closet remoaners, anything - or else the momentum for a second referendum will become unstoppable.

    It took UKIP 20 years to get a first referendum. They're not going to get a second one in 12 months. Indeed, this isn't even UKIP asking for it - and UKIP is a spent force. Cameron only conceded the referendum when UKIP was up into double figures and when there was a genuine argument that the issue needed settling. Neither is the case now, so how does the momentum become unstoppable?

    The only people demanding one are the ultra-remainers and an ex-UKIP leader who's missing the limelight. Most Leavers won't understand why Farage is calling for one (indeed, I'm not sure he's really rationalised it), and most of the country - and most MPs - will recoil at the idea of spending another six months shouting at each other.

    In any case, nothing happens on this unless the government wants it to. Labour isn't going to push it hard for its own reasons, and the last thing the Tories will want is to throw either the original question back to the public or to put the negotiated deal there. For a referendum to take place, there needs to be legislation - who is going to table it?

    If the will for another referendum was there then it could be done - but it isn't, so it won't be.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 1,935

    dr_spyn said:

    NHS Winter crisis hasn't turned into Corbyn's trump card.

    Bumping along with a 1% polling lead.

    All that noise and so little, so very little, heat.

    especially with the Night of the Short Straws overkill about the reshuffle.
    The fieldwork for this poll was mostly conducted before the reshuffle.
    But still in the media's blitz on the government over the NHS crisis or perceived crisis
    "Perceived crisis" - Simply LOLz
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 5,480
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Good afternoon, my fellow Second Punic War enthusiasts.

    I do hope Hannibal was scrupulous about cleaning up the bathroom after using it. Nothing worse than a stray Punic hair in the shower tray.

    Sorry.
    So was this whole Punic War thing an ideological battle between the shavers and the bushies?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 16,094

    murali_s said:

    dr_spyn said:

    NHS Winter crisis hasn't turned into Corbyn's trump card.

    Bumping along with a 1% polling lead.

    Patience my friend. We all know the Tories are clueless, heartless, incompetent and basically shit*. The lead will increase over time...

    Interestingly the LDs are up two - is this the start of a significant move I wonder?
    LDs only thing that isn't polling white noise. And even then....

    What would be fascinating in 2018 is say Labour slipping 3-4%, with that going to the LibDems. How long before Labour starts thinking "we could really go backards next time...."? And if that doubt were to set in...oh, fun times to be a popcorn retailer.
    Can’t sell it in plastic containers though. Does it keep in recyclable cardboard?
    Freshly popped, to order. In organic raffia-weaved baskets.

    You can even have pineapple on top.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 13,322

    brendan16 said:

    murali_s said:

    A second referendum would be close - the young will probably vote this time and may swing it to remain.

    I am reminded of the Winchester by-election in 1997. A 2-vote margin in the general election became a 21,556 vote majority in the by-election.
    Yep. The voters would say "What part of "we are going to Brexit" don't you understand?"

    People seem to forget that as recently as June 2017, 86% voted for parties who said they would implement Brexit.
    It was Nigel Farages wailing and whinging for ages about the result of the first referendum that caused the second.
    Yes, the Winchester result suggests it would be a walkover, but with a properly organised Remain campaign which could polnt out that yes, things are likely to get harder...... standing in the Non-EU queue to get onto the Canary Islands is demonstrably a distinct possibility, and more young people voting Winchester might turn out to be an abberation.
    Admittedly Farage waited 20 years after 1975 to call for one - not 20 minutes - and we didn't of course vote to remain in the EU in 1975 as it wasn't created until 1992. The common market was a totally different and small scale enterprise involving 9 economically similar nations.p

    Perhaps we need a new fixed term referendum act - we can only have one referendum on EU membership every 40 years.
    A creation of which we were part, and whose extension we (well MT) actively championed.
    No - Margaret Thatcher was opposed to the creation of the EU (which was 1993, FWIW). The Single Market was as far as she wanted to go - and she decided she'd been wrong on that in retrospect.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 16,094

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Good afternoon, my fellow Second Punic War enthusiasts.

    I do hope Hannibal was scrupulous about cleaning up the bathroom after using it. Nothing worse than a stray Punic hair in the shower tray.

    Sorry.
    So was this whole Punic War thing an ideological battle between the shavers and the bushies?
    And where do the Brazilians stand in this battle?
  • BromBrom Posts: 925

    Paddys go 4/7 Remain 11/8 Leave per their press release, though I can't actually see the price on site.

    https://news.paddypower.com/politics/2018/01/11/uk-odds-vote-remain-second-eu-referendum-nigel-farage-suggestion/

    They also go 7/1 on a referendum before April 2019.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 10,190

    brendan16 said:

    murali_s said:

    A second referendum would be close - the young will probably vote this time and may swing it to remain.

    I am reminded of the Winchester by-election in 1997. A 2-vote margin in the general election became a 21,556 vote majority in the by-election.
    Yep. The voters would say "What part of "we are going to Brexit" don't you understand?"

    People seem to forget that as recently as June 2017, 86% voted for parties who said they would implement Brexit.
    It was Nigel Farages wailing and whinging for ages about the result of the first referendum that caused the second.
    Yes, the Winchester result suggests it would be a walkover, but with a properly organised Remain campaign which could polnt out that yes, things are likely to get harder...... standing in the Non-EU queue to get onto the Canary Islands is demonstrably a distinct possibility, and more young people voting Winchester might turn out to be an abberation.
    Admittedly Farage waited 20 years after 1975 to call for one - not 20 minutes - and we didn't of course vote to remain in the EU in 1975 as it wasn't created until 1992. The common market was a totally different and small scale enterprise involving 9 economically similar nations.p

    Perhaps we need a new fixed term referendum act - we can only have one referendum on EU membership every 40 years.
    A creation of which we were part, and whose extension we (well MT) actively championed.
    No - Margaret Thatcher was opposed to the creation of the EU (which was 1993, FWIW). The Single Market was as far as she wanted to go - and she decided she'd been wrong on that in retrospect.
    Take the point about the lady changing her mnd, but we (she) supported the Eastern bloc countries joining.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 10,190

    murali_s said:

    dr_spyn said:

    NHS Winter crisis hasn't turned into Corbyn's trump card.

    Bumping along with a 1% polling lead.

    Patience my friend. We all know the Tories are clueless, heartless, incompetent and basically shit*. The lead will increase over time...

    Interestingly the LDs are up two - is this the start of a significant move I wonder?
    LDs only thing that isn't polling white noise. And even then....

    What would be fascinating in 2018 is say Labour slipping 3-4%, with that going to the LibDems. How long before Labour starts thinking "we could really go backards next time...."? And if that doubt were to set in...oh, fun times to be a popcorn retailer.
    Can’t sell it in plastic containers though. Does it keep in recyclable cardboard?
    Freshly popped, to order. In organic raffia-weaved baskets.

    You can even have pineapple on top.
    Sounds nearly as good as rabbit stew!
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 1,935

    brendan16 said:

    murali_s said:

    A second referendum would be close - the young will probably vote this time and may swing it to remain.

    I am reminded of the Winchester by-election in 1997. A 2-vote margin in the general election became a 21,556 vote majority in the by-election.
    Yep. The voters would say "What part of "we are going to Brexit" don't you understand?"

    People seem to forget that as recently as June 2017, 86% voted for parties who said they would implement Brexit.
    It was Nigel Farages wailing and whinging for ages about the result of the first referendum that caused the second.
    Yes, the Winchester result suggests it would be a walkover, but with a properly organised Remain campaign which could polnt out that yes, things are likely to get harder...... standing in the Non-EU queue to get onto the Canary Islands is demonstrably a distinct possibility, and more young people voting Winchester might turn out to be an abberation.
    Admittedly Farage waited 20 years after 1975 to call for one - not 20 minutes - and we didn't of course vote to remain in the EU in 1975 as it wasn't created until 1992. The common market was a totally different and small scale enterprise involving 9 economically similar nations.p

    Perhaps we need a new fixed term referendum act - we can only have one referendum on EU membership every 40 years.
    A creation of which we were part, and whose extension we (well MT) actively championed.
    No - Margaret Thatcher was opposed to the creation of the EU (which was 1993, FWIW). The Single Market was as far as she wanted to go - and she decided she'd been wrong on that in retrospect.
    Take the point about the lady changing her mnd, but we (she) supported the Eastern bloc countries joining.
    And I believe France and Germany were strongly opposed? Happy to be corrected...
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,188

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Good afternoon, my fellow Second Punic War enthusiasts.

    I do hope Hannibal was scrupulous about cleaning up the bathroom after using it. Nothing worse than a stray Punic hair in the shower tray.

    Sorry.
    So was this whole Punic War thing an ideological battle between the shavers and the bushies?
    And where do the Brazilians stand in this battle?

    Not involved, they only have a narrow viewpoint.

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 10,838

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Good afternoon, my fellow Second Punic War enthusiasts.

    I do hope Hannibal was scrupulous about cleaning up the bathroom after using it. Nothing worse than a stray Punic hair in the shower tray.

    Sorry.
    So was this whole Punic War thing an ideological battle between the shavers and the bushies?
    And where do the Brazilians stand in this battle?
    On a very narrow strip in the middle presumably.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 8,879
    Williamson heading for the exit?

    Nothing to do with his Council Tax proposals?

  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 329

    All Farage has done is hurt himself with the leave base,can see him getting some stick on his LBC show.

    Politics really is stranger than fiction. If someone told me yesterday that Nigel Farage and Aaron Banks would today call for a second EU referendum I'd have assumed they were deranged. Yet this is the bizarre truth.
  • BromBrom Posts: 925
    Anazina said:

    All Farage has done is hurt himself with the leave base,can see him getting some stick on his LBC show.

    Politics really is stranger than fiction. If someone told me yesterday that Nigel Farage and Aaron Banks would today call for a second EU referendum I'd have assumed they were deranged. Yet this is the bizarre truth.
    Every day is a surprise that's for sure. I'd like to think we will categorically leave the EU but you'd be mad to predict anything in this climate with 100% conviction
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 1,511

    Scott_P said:

    Mortimer said:

    I don't see any Leavers in a spin.

    @IsabelOakeshott: Brexiteers need more of the message discipline displayed by Remoaners. If we don't sing from the same hymn sheet @Nigel_Farage it doesn't help our cause

    Oakeshott is right to be dismayed. Leave's best card was that 'the Will of the People' bestowed upon Brexit an almost mystical immutability. Nigel has just shot that to pieces.
    I think leave's best card was winning the referendum.
    It’s definitely the best card to have in this game.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 17,636
    dr_spyn said:

    Williamson heading for the exit?

    Nothing to do with his Council Tax proposals?

    He doesn't know if he has resigned or not?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 12,547
    Anazina said:

    All Farage has done is hurt himself with the leave base,can see him getting some stick on his LBC show.

    Politics really is stranger than fiction. If someone told me yesterday that Nigel Farage and Aaron Banks would today call for a second EU referendum I'd have assumed they were deranged. Yet this is the bizarre truth.
    I'm not surprised. All Farage and Banks care about is their own ego. They've never forgiven Vote Leave for winning the referendum without them.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 6,487
    dr_spyn said:

    Williamson heading for the exit?

    Nothing to do with his Council Tax proposals?

    He's Shadow Minister for Fire and Emergency Services - I doubt having a view on Council tax, which, although not Labour's position, is far from heretical would be grounds for resignation
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 7,365
    edited January 11
    brendan16 said:

    murali_s said:

    A second referendum would be close - the young will probably vote this time and may swing it to remain.

    I am reminded of the Winchester by-election in 1997. A 2-vote margin in the general election became a 21,556 vote majority in the by-election.
    Yep. The voters would say "What part of "we are going to Brexit" don't you understand?"

    People seem to forget that as recently as June 2017, 86% voted for parties who said they would implement Brexit.
    It was Nigel Farages wailing and whinging for ages about the result of the first referendum that caused the second.
    Yes, the Winchester result suggests it would be a walkover, but with a properly organised Remain campaign which could polnt out that yes, things are likely to get harder...... standing in the Non-EU queue to get onto the Canary Islands is demonstrably a distinct possibility, and more young people voting Winchester might turn out to be an abberation.
    Admittedly Farage waited 20 years after 1975 to call for one - not 20 minutes - and we didn't of course vote to remain in the EU in 1975 as it wasn't created until 1992. The common market was a totally different and small scale enterprise involving 9 economically similar nations.p

    Perhaps we need a new fixed term referendum act - we can only have one referendum on EU membership every 40 years.
    In 1975, predictions were made which turned out to be quite accurate, about the future development from Common Market to EU. Here is Tony Benn in the Spectator:
    the European Community has now set itself the objectives of developing a common foreign policy, a form of common nationality expressed through a common passport, a directly elected assembly and an economic and monetary union which, taken together, would in effect make the United Kingdom into one province of a Western European state.
    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/05/a-lesson-from-the-1975-referendum/
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 6,487

    dr_spyn said:

    Williamson heading for the exit?

    Nothing to do with his Council Tax proposals?

    He doesn't know if he has resigned or not?
    That old joke - he's waiting for Jeremy's office to tell him
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 16,094

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Good afternoon, my fellow Second Punic War enthusiasts.

    I do hope Hannibal was scrupulous about cleaning up the bathroom after using it. Nothing worse than a stray Punic hair in the shower tray.

    Sorry.
    So was this whole Punic War thing an ideological battle between the shavers and the bushies?
    And where do the Brazilians stand in this battle?
    On a very narrow strip in the middle presumably.
    Da-bum tish!
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 13,322

    brendan16 said:

    murali_s said:

    A second referendum would be close - the young will probably vote this time and may swing it to remain.

    I am reminded of the Winchester by-election in 1997. A 2-vote margin in the general election became a 21,556 vote majority in the by-election.
    Yep. The voters would say "What part of "we are going to Brexit" don't you understand?"

    People seem to forget that as recently as June 2017, 86% voted for parties who said they would implement Brexit.
    It was Nigel Farages wailing and whinging for ages about the result of the first referendum that caused the second.
    Yes, the Winchester result suggests it would be a walkover, but with a properly organised Remain campaign which could polnt out that yes, things are likely to get harder...... standing in the Non-EU queue to get onto the Canary Islands is demonstrably a distinct possibility, and more young people voting Winchester might turn out to be an abberation.
    Admittedly Farage waited 20 years after 1975 to call for one - not 20 minutes - and we didn't of course vote to remain in the EU in 1975 as it wasn't created until 1992. The common market was a totally different and small scale enterprise involving 9 economically similar nations.p

    Perhaps we need a new fixed term referendum act - we can only have one referendum on EU membership every 40 years.
    A creation of which we were part, and whose extension we (well MT) actively championed.
    No - Margaret Thatcher was opposed to the creation of the EU (which was 1993, FWIW). The Single Market was as far as she wanted to go - and she decided she'd been wrong on that in retrospect.
    Take the point about the lady changing her mnd, but we (she) supported the Eastern bloc countries joining.
    That's true. She also wanted East Germany to remain an independent country!
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 503

    brendan16 said:

    murali_s said:

    A second referendum would be close - the young will probably vote this time and may swing it to remain.

    I am reminded of the Winchester by-election in 1997. A 2-vote margin in the general election became a 21,556 vote majority in the by-election.
    Yep. The voters would say "What part of "we are going to Brexit" don't you understand?"

    People seem to forget that as recently as June 2017, 86% voted for parties who said they would implement Brexit.
    It was Nigel Farages wailing and whinging for ages about the result of the first referendum that caused the second.
    Yes, the Winchester result suggests it would be a walkover, but with a properly organised Remain campaign which could polnt out that yes, things are likely to get harder...... standing in the Non-EU queue to get onto the Canary Islands is demonstrably a distinct possibility, and more young people voting Winchester might turn out to be an abberation.
    Admittedly Farage waited 20 years after 1975 to call for one - not 20 minutes - and we didn't of course vote to remain in the EU in 1975 as it wasn't created until 1992. The common market was a totally different and small scale enterprise involving 9 economically similar nations.p

    Perhaps we need a new fixed term referendum act - we can only have one referendum on EU membership every 40 years.
    In 1975, predictions were made which turned out to be quite accurate, about the future development from Common Market to EU. Here is Tony Benn in the Spectator:
    the European Community has now set itself the objectives of developing a common foreign policy, a form of common nationality expressed through a common passport, a directly elected assembly and an economic and monetary union which, taken together, would in effect make the United Kingdom into one province of a Western European state.
    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/05/a-lesson-from-the-1975-referendum/
    Weren't those views regarded as nonsense by his opponents and scaremongering at the time?
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,146
    Anazina said:

    All Farage has done is hurt himself with the leave base,can see him getting some stick on his LBC show.

    Politics really is stranger than fiction. If someone told me yesterday that Nigel Farage and Aaron Banks would today call for a second EU referendum I'd have assumed they were deranged. Yet this is the bizarre truth.
    I still assume Nigel Farage and Arron Banks are deranged.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 503

    dr_spyn said:

    Williamson heading for the exit?

    Nothing to do with his Council Tax proposals?

    He's Shadow Minister for Fire and Emergency Services - I doubt having a view on Council tax, which, although not Labour's position, is far from heretical would be grounds for resignation
    Fire services are funded by council tax - so if you want more fire services presumably you need to pay for them somehow. Problem is his proposals would hit momentum central too hard - inner London, Brighton, Oxford and Cambridge renters!
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 329

    Anazina said:

    All Farage has done is hurt himself with the leave base,can see him getting some stick on his LBC show.

    Politics really is stranger than fiction. If someone told me yesterday that Nigel Farage and Aaron Banks would today call for a second EU referendum I'd have assumed they were deranged. Yet this is the bizarre truth.
    I still assume Nigel Farage and Arron Banks are deranged.
    :)
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 5,519
    brendan16 said:

    brendan16 said:

    murali_s said:

    A second referendum would be close - the young will probably vote this time and may swing it to remain.

    I am reminded of the Winchester by-election in 1997. A 2-vote margin in the general election became a 21,556 vote majority in the by-election.
    Yep. The voters would say "What part of "we are going to Brexit" don't you understand?"

    People seem to forget that as recently as June 2017, 86% voted for parties who said they would implement Brexit.
    It was Nigel Farages wailing and whinging for ages about the result of the first referendum that caused the second.
    Yes, the Winchester result suggests it would be a walkover, but with a properly organised Remain campaign which could polnt out that yes, things are likely to get harder...... standing in the Non-EU queue to get onto the Canary Islands is demonstrably a distinct possibility, and more young people voting Winchester might turn out to be an abberation.
    Admittedly Farage waited 20 years after 1975 to call for one - not 20 minutes - and we didn't of course vote to remain in the EU in 1975 as it wasn't created until 1992. The common market was a totally different and small scale enterprise involving 9 economically similar nations.p

    Perhaps we need a new fixed term referendum act - we can only have one referendum on EU membership every 40 years.
    In 1975, predictions were made which turned out to be quite accurate, about the future development from Common Market to EU. Here is Tony Benn in the Spectator:
    the European Community has now set itself the objectives of developing a common foreign policy, a form of common nationality expressed through a common passport, a directly elected assembly and an economic and monetary union which, taken together, would in effect make the United Kingdom into one province of a Western European state.
    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/05/a-lesson-from-the-1975-referendum/
    Weren't those views regarded as nonsense by his opponents and scaremongering at the time?
    This bit "would in effect make the United Kingdom into one province of a Western European state." still is nonsense.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 9,105
    Looks like today is my turn to be the nominated PBer stuck on the East coast line. Ho hum
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 10,190
    brendan16 said:

    brendan16 said:

    murali_s said:

    A second referendum would be close - the young will probably vote this time and may swing it to remain.

    I am reminded of the Winchester by-election in 1997. A 2-vote margin in the general election became a 21,556 vote majority in the by-election.
    Yep. The voters would say "What part of "we are going to Brexit" don't you understand?"

    People seem to forget that as recently as June 2017, 86% voted for parties who said they would implement Brexit.
    It was Nigel Farages wailing and whinging for ages about the result of the first referendum that caused the second.
    Yes, the Winchester result suggests it would be a walkover, but with a properly organised Remain campaign which could polnt out that yes, things are likely to get harder...... standing in the Non-EU queue to get onto the Canary Islands is demonstrably a distinct possibility, and more young people voting Winchester might turn out to be an abberation.
    Admittedly Farage waited 20 years after 1975 to call for one - not 20 minutes - and we didn't of course vote to remain in the EU in 1975 as it wasn't created until 1992. The common market was a totally different and small scale enterprise involving 9 economically similar nations.p

    Perhaps we need a new fixed term referendum act - we can only have one referendum on EU membership every 40 years.
    In 1975, predictions were made which turned out to be quite accurate, about the future development from Common Market to EU. Here is Tony Benn in the Spectator:
    the European Community has now set itself the objectives of developing a common foreign policy, a form of common nationality expressed through a common passport, a directly elected assembly and an economic and monetary union which, taken together, would in effect make the United Kingdom into one province of a Western European state.
    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/05/a-lesson-from-the-1975-referendum/
    Weren't those views regarded as nonsense by his opponents and scaremongering at the time?
    Not regarded as nonsense as I recall, but far-fetched. They described the aims of at least some of us voting Yes, but most of the Yes campaign regarded them as unlikely to be achieved.
  • murali_s said:

    dr_spyn said:

    NHS Winter crisis hasn't turned into Corbyn's trump card.

    Bumping along with a 1% polling lead.

    All that noise and so little, so very little, heat.

    especially with the Night of the Short Straws overkill about the reshuffle.
    The fieldwork for this poll was mostly conducted before the reshuffle.
    But still in the media's blitz on the government over the NHS crisis or perceived crisis
    "Perceived crisis" - Simply LOLz
    You do know Wales is far worse than England with terrible daily reports on ITV Wales and labour in serious trouble over it
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 26,029
    Mortimer said:

    Looks like today is my turn to be the nominated PBer stuck on the East coast line. Ho hum

    Have they offered you a complimentary browse of the Daily Mail while you wait?
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 329
    Mortimer said:

    Looks like today is my turn to be the nominated PBer stuck on the East coast line. Ho hum

    Join my campaign for it to be renationalised @Mortimer. It was run extremely well under Directly Operated Railways – returning £££ to the taxpayer. The government renationalised for nakedly ideological reasons despite the fact that they were actually doing a good job running it!
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 6,487
    brendan16 said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Williamson heading for the exit?

    Nothing to do with his Council Tax proposals?

    He's Shadow Minister for Fire and Emergency Services - I doubt having a view on Council tax, which, although not Labour's position, is far from heretical would be grounds for resignation
    Fire services are funded by council tax - so if you want more fire services presumably you need to pay for them somehow. Problem is his proposals would hit momentum central too hard - inner London, Brighton, Oxford and Cambridge renters!
    A worthy attempt Brendan but can't see it as a sackable offence.

    Maybe they genuinely just fell out over it though.
  • dr_spyn said:

    Williamson heading for the exit?

    Nothing to do with his Council Tax proposals?

    He doesn't know if he has resigned or not?
    Is he the Lord Falconer de nos jours?
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 13,322
    brendan16 said:

    brendan16 said:



    Yep. The voters would say "What part of "we are going to Brexit" don't you understand?"

    People seem to forget that as recently as June 2017, 86% voted for parties who said they would implement Brexit.

    It was Nigel Farages wailing and whinging for ages about the result of the first referendum that caused the second.
    Yes, the Winchester result suggests it would be a walkover, but with a properly organised Remain campaign which could polnt out that yes, things are likely to get harder...... standing in the Non-EU queue to get onto the Canary Islands is demonstrably a distinct possibility, and more young people voting Winchester might turn out to be an abberation.
    Admittedly Farage waited 20 years after 1975 to call for one - not 20 minutes - and we didn't of course vote to remain in the EU in 1975 as it wasn't created until 1992. The common market was a totally different and small scale enterprise involving 9 economically similar nations.p

    Perhaps we need a new fixed term referendum act - we can only have one referendum on EU membership every 40 years.
    In 1975, predictions were made which turned out to be quite accurate, about the future development from Common Market to EU. Here is Tony Benn in the Spectator:
    the European Community has now set itself the objectives of developing a common foreign policy, a form of common nationality expressed through a common passport, a directly elected assembly and an economic and monetary union which, taken together, would in effect make the United Kingdom into one province of a Western European state.
    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/05/a-lesson-from-the-1975-referendum/
    Weren't those views regarded as nonsense by his opponents and scaremongering at the time?
    Of the four, two (the passport and the foreign policy) have still not been fully realised, and the other two were pre-existing policies from before 1973, so hardly scaremongering. The original treaties called for an elected parliament, while the first shot at EMU came in the Werner Plan, agreed in 1969. It later failed during the oil crisis and the breakdown of the Bretton Woods system.

    Of the other two, the passports have superficial similarities but remain individual to the member states, while a meaningful common foreign policy cannot exist without a common government to determine one and common diplomatic and military resources to enforce it, which wasn't on the agenda then (and still isn't now, bar a few flights of fancy), so Benn's point there is something of a tautology.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 329

    dr_spyn said:

    Williamson heading for the exit?

    Nothing to do with his Council Tax proposals?

    He doesn't know if he has resigned or not?

    #JeSuisCharlieFalconer
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 40,642
    Mr. Eagles, he's the Shadow Minister for Schrodinger's Cat.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 1,935
    edited January 11

    murali_s said:

    dr_spyn said:

    NHS Winter crisis hasn't turned into Corbyn's trump card.

    Bumping along with a 1% polling lead.

    All that noise and so little, so very little, heat.

    especially with the Night of the Short Straws overkill about the reshuffle.
    The fieldwork for this poll was mostly conducted before the reshuffle.
    But still in the media's blitz on the government over the NHS crisis or perceived crisis
    "Perceived crisis" - Simply LOLz
    You do know Wales is far worse than England with terrible daily reports on ITV Wales and labour in serious trouble over it
    Is that your answer to everything? "I know it's bad mate, but you should come to Wales, it's far worse".

    For once, stop trying to score political points and face the facts. The NHS is in crisis - a severe crisis - people are dying on hospital trolleys. That should shame us all. What as a country are we going to do about it?
  • brendan16 said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Williamson heading for the exit?

    Nothing to do with his Council Tax proposals?

    He's Shadow Minister for Fire and Emergency Services - I doubt having a view on Council tax, which, although not Labour's position, is far from heretical would be grounds for resignation
    Fire services are funded by council tax - so if you want more fire services presumably you need to pay for them somehow. Problem is his proposals would hit momentum central too hard - inner London, Brighton, Oxford and Cambridge renters!
    A worthy attempt Brendan but can't see it as a sackable offence.

    Maybe they genuinely just fell out over it though.
    I think it was in Tim Shipman's book that I read that John McDonnell has a very clear policy, no spending increases or tax changes to be announced unless it had been approved by John McDonnell first.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 7,234
    Mortimer said:

    Looks like today is my turn to be the nominated PBer stuck on the East coast line. Ho hum

    Get yourself a paper from the shop
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 5,480

    brendan16 said:

    brendan16 said:

    murali_s said:

    A second referendum would be close - the young will probably vote this time and may swing it to remain.

    I am reminded of the Winchester by-election in 1997. A 2-vote margin in the general election became a 21,556 vote majority in the by-election.
    Yep. The voters would say "What part of "we are going to Brexit" don't you understand?"

    People seem to forget that as recently as June 2017, 86% voted for parties who said they would implement Brexit.
    It was Nigel Farages wailing and whinging for ages about the result of the first referendum that caused the second.
    Yes, the Winchester result suggests it would be a walkover, but with a properly organised Remain campaign which could polnt out that yes, things are likely to get harder...... standing in the Non-EU queue to get onto the Canary Islands is demonstrably a distinct possibility, and more young people voting Winchester might turn out to be an abberation.
    Admittedly Farage waited 20 years after 1975 to call for one - not 20 minutes - and we didn't of course vote to remain in the EU in 1975 as it wasn't created until 1992. The common market was a totally different and small scale enterprise involving 9 economically similar nations.p

    Perhaps we need a new fixed term referendum act - we can only have one referendum on EU membership every 40 years.
    In 1975, predictions were made which turned out to be quite accurate, about the future development from Common Market to EU. Here is Tony Benn in the Spectator:
    the European Community has now set itself the objectives of developing a common foreign policy, a form of common nationality expressed through a common passport, a directly elected assembly and an economic and monetary union which, taken together, would in effect make the United Kingdom into one province of a Western European state.
    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/05/a-lesson-from-the-1975-referendum/
    Weren't those views regarded as nonsense by his opponents and scaremongering at the time?
    This bit "would in effect make the United Kingdom into one province of a Western European state." still is nonsense.
    That's right. The EU is now a proto-pan-European state.
  • Mr. Eagles, he's the Shadow Minister for Schrodinger's Cat.

    I'd say he's Shadow Minister for Heisenberg's Particle/Principle.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,292

    Mortimer said:

    Looks like today is my turn to be the nominated PBer stuck on the East coast line. Ho hum

    Get yourself a paper from the shop
    And a slice of pizza from the restaurant car....
  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,292

    Mr. Eagles, he's the Shadow Minister for Schrodinger's Cat.

    I'd say he's Shadow Minister for Heisenberg's Particle/Principle.
    There’s a joke about momentum in there somewhere....
  • Genius.

    Poor Tim Farron, being a Liberal Democrat opposed to gay sex is a bit like being a Savage Garden fan turning up to a Sound Garden gig by mistake.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 5,480

    Mr. Eagles, he's the Shadow Minister for Schrodinger's Cat.

    I thought that was George Galloway.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 62,039
    edited January 11
    RobD said:

    Mr. Eagles, he's the Shadow Minister for Schrodinger's Cat.

    I'd say he's Shadow Minister for Heisenberg's Particle/Principle.
    There’s a joke about momentum in there somewhere....
    Hah, I might work that into a thread header.

    I like doing science based threads, I enjoyed doing the thread that included the mineral 'Cummingtonite'
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 26,029
    edited January 11
    dr_spyn said:
    By important issues to him, I presume he means continuing to claim there is no crisis in Venezuela nor any issue with antisemitism in the Labour Party.
  • murali_s said:



    Patience my friend. We all know the Tories are clueless, heartless, incompetent and basically shit*. The lead will increase over time...

    Interestingly the LDs are up two - is this the start of a significant move I wonder?

    I'd like to think so... but this poll was conducted before Tim Farron's latest stunt. That won't have done us any great good so I'd be begging for 9% when the dust has cleared. I'm giving no details here of the nature or content of the debate on the topic - but his ears might well have been burning at around the time our constituency branch were meeting last night.

  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 6,487

    brendan16 said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Williamson heading for the exit?

    Nothing to do with his Council Tax proposals?

    He's Shadow Minister for Fire and Emergency Services - I doubt having a view on Council tax, which, although not Labour's position, is far from heretical would be grounds for resignation
    Fire services are funded by council tax - so if you want more fire services presumably you need to pay for them somehow. Problem is his proposals would hit momentum central too hard - inner London, Brighton, Oxford and Cambridge renters!
    A worthy attempt Brendan but can't see it as a sackable offence.

    Maybe they genuinely just fell out over it though.
    I think it was in Tim Shipman's book that I read that John McDonnell has a very clear policy, no spending increases or tax changes to be announced unless it had been approved by John McDonnell first.
    It hasn't been "announced", though. Perhaps Williamson has more to say,
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 11,550
    edited January 11
    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    dr_spyn said:

    NHS Winter crisis hasn't turned into Corbyn's trump card.

    Bumping along with a 1% polling lead.

    All that noise and so little, so very little, heat.

    especially with the Night of the Short Straws overkill about the reshuffle.
    The fieldwork for this poll was mostly conducted before the reshuffle.
    But still in the media's blitz on the government over the NHS crisis or perceived crisis
    "Perceived crisis" - Simply LOLz
    You do know Wales is far worse than England with terrible daily reports on ITV Wales and labour in serious trouble over it
    Is that your answer to everything? "I know it's bad mate, but you should come to Wales, it's far worse".

    For once, stop trying to score political points and face the facts. The NHS is in crisis - a severe crisis - people are dying on hospital trolleys. That should shame us all. What as a country are we going to do about it?
    Accept that labour is failing in Wales. You cannot dismiss those of us who live in Wales and have witnessed best friends dying on wards with no one feeding them, another friend outside in a ambulance for hours while having a stroke he eventually died from and I had to wait 64 weeks for a bi lateral hernia operation
  • Oh dear, Katie Hopkins now facing a huge costs bill

  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 13,322

    Oh dear, Katie Hopkins now facing a huge costs bill

    That's not news, is it?

    https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/katie-hopkins-to-appeal/5060323.article

    It's still amusing though.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,292

    Oh dear, Katie Hopkins now facing a huge costs bill

    That's not news, is it?

    https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/katie-hopkins-to-appeal/5060323.article

    It's still amusing though.
    Sounds as though the appeal has been refused.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 1,568
    edited January 11
    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    dr_spyn said:

    NHS Winter crisis hasn't turned into Corbyn's trump card.

    Bumping along with a 1% polling lead.

    All that noise and so little, so very little, heat.

    especially with the Night of the Short Straws overkill about the reshuffle.
    The fieldwork for this poll was mostly conducted before the reshuffle.
    But still in the media's blitz on the government over the NHS crisis or perceived crisis
    "Perceived crisis" - Simply LOLz
    You do know Wales is far worse than England with terrible daily reports on ITV Wales and labour in serious trouble over it
    Is that your answer to everything? "I know it's bad mate, but you should come to Wales, it's far worse".

    For once, stop trying to score political points and face the facts. The NHS is in crisis - a severe crisis - people are dying on hospital trolleys. That should shame us all. What as a country are we going to do about it?
    Actually, it is perfectly reasonable to point out that Labour have run Wales since 1999. For 11 of those years, Labour were also in power in Westminster.

    Since 1999, Wales has become poorer, it is bottom of all the league tables of the 4 constituent nations of the UK in health and education. Welsh Labour have failed. Labour have failed Wales.

    A generation has grown up while Labour has been in power in Wales. And there has been no change for the better. And things have got worse in education or health since devolution.

    Do, please tell us who else to blame.
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 996
    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    dr_spyn said:

    NHS Winter crisis hasn't turned into Corbyn's trump card.

    Bumping along with a 1% polling lead.

    All that noise and so little, so very little, heat.

    especially with the Night of the Short Straws overkill about the reshuffle.
    The fieldwork for this poll was mostly conducted before the reshuffle.
    But still in the media's blitz on the government over the NHS crisis or perceived crisis
    "Perceived crisis" - Simply LOLz
    You do know Wales is far worse than England with terrible daily reports on ITV Wales and labour in serious trouble over it
    Is that your answer to everything? "I know it's bad mate, but you should come to Wales, it's far worse".

    For once, stop trying to score political points and face the facts. The NHS is in crisis - a severe crisis - people are dying on hospital trolleys. That should shame us all. What as a country are we going to do about it?
    For a start, we could listen to MPs/Lords who know more than a bit about healthcare

    Dr Sarah Wollaston
    Dr/Lord David Owen
    Stephen Dorrell ex-MP, involved in health for almost his whole political career
    Norman Lamb

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/health-and-care/house/59135/stephen-dorrell-health-and-political-sloganising-dont-mix

    There may be examples in Labour too but these were the first people I thought of who are prepared to put the NHS above short-term party politics.
  • Oh dear, Katie Hopkins now facing a huge costs bill

    That's not news, is it?

    https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/katie-hopkins-to-appeal/5060323.article

    It's still amusing though.
    That's the old appeal, this is today's appellate decision.

    http://www.5rb.com/news/katie-hopkins-refused-permission-appeal/
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 5,480

    murali_s said:



    Patience my friend. We all know the Tories are clueless, heartless, incompetent and basically shit*. The lead will increase over time...

    Interestingly the LDs are up two - is this the start of a significant move I wonder?

    I'd like to think so... but this poll was conducted before Tim Farron's latest stunt. That won't have done us any great good so I'd be begging for 9% when the dust has cleared. I'm giving no details here of the nature or content of the debate on the topic - but his ears might well have been burning at around the time our constituency branch were meeting last night.

    Farron must be the first politician to apologise for making a non-homophobic statement. And then issue a clarification.
  • murali_s said:



    Patience my friend. We all know the Tories are clueless, heartless, incompetent and basically shit*. The lead will increase over time...

    Interestingly the LDs are up two - is this the start of a significant move I wonder?

    I'd like to think so... but this poll was conducted before Tim Farron's latest stunt. That won't have done us any great good so I'd be begging for 9% when the dust has cleared. I'm giving no details here of the nature or content of the debate on the topic - but his ears might well have been burning at around the time our constituency branch were meeting last night.

    Farron must be the first politician to apologise for making a non-homophobic statement. And then issue a clarification.
    I think an American politician did that back in the 2000s.

    I think he attended a gay pride event not realising it was a gay pride, he thought it was a march opposed to gay rights.

    I wouldn't put it past Sammy Wilson or others in the DUP to apologise for making a non-homophobic statement. And then issue a clarification.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,292

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    dr_spyn said:

    NHS Winter crisis hasn't turned into Corbyn's trump card.

    Bumping along with a 1% polling lead.

    All that noise and so little, so very little, heat.

    especially with the Night of the Short Straws overkill about the reshuffle.
    The fieldwork for this poll was mostly conducted before the reshuffle.
    But still in the media's blitz on the government over the NHS crisis or perceived crisis
    "Perceived crisis" - Simply LOLz
    You do know Wales is far worse than England with terrible daily reports on ITV Wales and labour in serious trouble over it
    Is that your answer to everything? "I know it's bad mate, but you should come to Wales, it's far worse".

    For once, stop trying to score political points and face the facts. The NHS is in crisis - a severe crisis - people are dying on hospital trolleys. That should shame us all. What as a country are we going to do about it?
    Actually, it is perfectly reasonable to point out that Labour have run Wales since 1999. For 11 of those years, Labour were also in power in Westminster.

    Since 1999, Wales has become poorer, it is bottom of all the league tables of the 4 constituent nations of the UK in health and education. Welsh Labour have failed. Labour have failed Wales.

    A generation has grown up while Labour has been in power in Wales. And there has been no change for the better. And things have got worse in education or health since devolution.

    Do, please tell us who else to blame.
    Thatcher.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 26,029
    edited January 11


  • Farron must be the first politician to apologise for making a non-homophobic statement. And then issue a clarification.

    I don't mind saying that I had a bit of a wobble during the GE campaign because of Farron. I briefly considered not voting and if we hadn't had such a good local candidate I might've gone through with it. In theory it should be less of a story now that he's no longer leader but there's no getting away from the fact that it means 8.33% of the parliamentary party has gone rogue.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 397

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    dr_spyn said:

    NHS Winter crisis hasn't turned into Corbyn's trump card.

    Bumping along with a 1% polling lead.

    All that noise and so little, so very little, heat.

    especially with the Night of the Short Straws overkill about the reshuffle.
    The fieldwork for this poll was mostly conducted before the reshuffle.
    But still in the media's blitz on the government over the NHS crisis or perceived crisis
    "Perceived crisis" - Simply LOLz
    You do know Wales is far worse than England with terrible daily reports on ITV Wales and labour in serious trouble over it
    Is that your answer to everything? "I know it's bad mate, but you should come to Wales, it's far worse".

    For once, stop trying to score political points and face the facts. The NHS is in crisis - a severe crisis - people are dying on hospital trolleys. That should shame us all. What as a country are we going to do about it?
    Accept that labour is failing in Wales. You cannot dismiss those of us who live in Wales and have witnessed best friends dying on wards with no one feeding them, another friend outside in a ambulance for hours while having a stroke he eventually died from and I had to wait 64 weeks for a bi lateral hernia operation
    I refer you back to my own experiences of Bro Abertawe Health Board and in particularPrincess of Wales Hospital in Bridgend. Seven years ago it was rotten to the core. Now it is run very well and the service provided much improved. I am aware of the issues within Betsi Cadwalladr Trust, but your central point about the Welsh Assembly Government overseeing NHS chaos whilst England are doing OK is simply not true. You can do a HYUFD on me and quote spurious statistics, however lies, damn lies and statistics is my response, Back to the real world, and my anecdotes are as valid as yours.

    Yes the NHS in Wales is creaking under the burden of its duty of care as it is in England and Scotland.

    Perhaps across the UK the NHS is a victim of its own success, and it becomes less able to cope as it keeps people alive for longer.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 34,492

    Poor Tim Farron, being a Liberal Democrat opposed to gay sex is a bit like being a Savage Garden fan turning up to a Sound Garden gig by mistake.

  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 13,322

    Oh dear, Katie Hopkins now facing a huge costs bill

    That's not news, is it?

    https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/katie-hopkins-to-appeal/5060323.article

    It's still amusing though.
    That's the old appeal, this is today's appellate decision.

    http://www.5rb.com/news/katie-hopkins-refused-permission-appeal/
    So she has more costs, then? Lol.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 329
    The Corbynator and MaccyD will move swiftly to the centre ground if elected – they will be forced to as most of their MPs are well to the right of them. This truth means Labour are somewhat less scary than the hopelessly weak puppet PM Theresa May and the less-than-merry band of deranged xenophobic social conservatives who pull her strings.
  • Oh dear, Katie Hopkins now facing a huge costs bill

    That's not news, is it?

    https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/katie-hopkins-to-appeal/5060323.article

    It's still amusing though.
    That's the old appeal, this is today's appellate decision.

    http://www.5rb.com/news/katie-hopkins-refused-permission-appeal/
    So she has more costs, then? Lol.
    Lots more cost, Morus doesn't come cheap.
  • Anazina said:

    The Corbynator and MaccyD will move swiftly to the centre ground if elected – they will be forced to as most of their MPs are well to the right of them. This truth means Labour are somewhat less scary than the hopelessly weak puppet PM Theresa May and the less-than-merry band of deranged xenophobic social conservatives who pull her strings.
    Pivot to the centre if elected?

    I heard the same nonsense about Trump.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 26,029

    Anazina said:

    The Corbynator and MaccyD will move swiftly to the centre ground if elected – they will be forced to as most of their MPs are well to the right of them. This truth means Labour are somewhat less scary than the hopelessly weak puppet PM Theresa May and the less-than-merry band of deranged xenophobic social conservatives who pull her strings.
    Pivot to the centre if elected?

    I heard the same nonsense about Trump.
    Also, Corbyn thinks the "centre" as espoused by Tony Blair is hard right Thatcherism dressed up with nicer presentation....
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 10,190

    murali_s said:



    Patience my friend. We all know the Tories are clueless, heartless, incompetent and basically shit*. The lead will increase over time...

    Interestingly the LDs are up two - is this the start of a significant move I wonder?

    I'd like to think so... but this poll was conducted before Tim Farron's latest stunt. That won't have done us any great good so I'd be begging for 9% when the dust has cleared. I'm giving no details here of the nature or content of the debate on the topic - but his ears might well have been burning at around the time our constituency branch were meeting last night.

    Farron must be the first politician to apologise for making a non-homophobic statement. And then issue a clarification.
    You don’t think it’s part of a movement to detach the DUP from the Tories?
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 8,879
    Hopkins Internal Inquiry, looks like one MP isn't gruntled any longer.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 16,097

    dr_spyn said:

    NHS Winter crisis hasn't turned into Corbyn's trump card.

    Bumping along with a 1% polling lead.

    The spotlight on the NHS and today's demand for an additional 30 billion + annual spend brings the whole debate to a new level.

    The rate of tax increase to address just the 30 billion is eye-watering without all the other demands by labour to scrap the public sector wage freeze, abolish student fees, add 20,000 new police officers together with increases in all benefits.

    This may not work as well for labour as they hoped because the conservativesare trusted more on the economy as is May and Hammond
    Every single week at PMQs that NHS funding gets a mention, Mrs May makes it clear, as Mr Cameron did before, that the funding of the NHS is dependent on a strong economy.

    So they’re asking for 5p on the basic rate of income tax this week for the NHS, and they’re asking for another 5p next week to fund social care.

    The only way this seriously gets resolved is either a massive increase in taxes for everyone, or a massive reduction in what people expect the State to provide.

    We need to do everything we can to encourage private health and social care insurance, a reduction in elective NHS procedures, expand the scope of NI to over 65s and (final salary) pension income, and an expectation that those of means will contribute to their own care in old age.

    Most importantly of all, and this is by far the most difficult, the politicians need to work together on this and cut out the hyperbolic language applied to anyone who dares to propose a solution.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 13,322
    edited January 11
    RobD said:

    Mr. Eagles, he's the Shadow Minister for Schrodinger's Cat.

    I'd say he's Shadow Minister for Heisenberg's Particle/Principle.
    There’s a joke about momentum in there somewhere....
    There's a joke about absolute zero and momentum too but I can't quite pin it down.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 5,480

    murali_s said:



    Patience my friend. We all know the Tories are clueless, heartless, incompetent and basically shit*. The lead will increase over time...

    Interestingly the LDs are up two - is this the start of a significant move I wonder?

    I'd like to think so... but this poll was conducted before Tim Farron's latest stunt. That won't have done us any great good so I'd be begging for 9% when the dust has cleared. I'm giving no details here of the nature or content of the debate on the topic - but his ears might well have been burning at around the time our constituency branch were meeting last night.

    Farron must be the first politician to apologise for making a non-homophobic statement. And then issue a clarification.
    You don’t think it’s part of a movement to detach the DUP from the Tories?
    Of course - the DUP and LibDems make such natural bedfellows. Fifty shades of orange.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 5,480
    dr_spyn said:

    Hopkins Internal Inquiry, looks like one MP isn't gruntled any longer.

    That had me confused for a moment - a different Hopkins!
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 10,190

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    dr_spyn said:

    NHS Winter crisis hasn't turned into Corbyn's trump card.

    Bumping along with a 1% polling lead.

    All that noise and so little, so very little, heat.

    especially with the Night of the Short Straws overkill about the reshuffle.
    The fieldwork for this poll was mostly conducted before the reshuffle.
    But still in the media's blitz on the government over the NHS crisis or perceived crisis
    "Perceived crisis" - Simply LOLz
    You do know Wales is far worse than England with terrible daily reports on ITV Wales and labour in serious trouble over it
    Is that your answer to everything? "I know it's bad mate, but you should come to Wales, it's far worse".

    For once, stop trying to score political points and face the facts. The NHS is in crisis - a severe crisis - people are dying on hospital trolleys. That should shame us all. What as a country are we going to do about it?
    Accept that labour is failing in Wales. You cannot dismiss those of us who live in Wales and have witnessed best friends dying on wards with no one feeding them, another friend outside in a ambulance for hours while having a stroke he eventually died from and I had to wait 64 weeks for a bi lateral hernia operation
    I refer you back to my own experiences of Bro Abertawe Health Board and in particularPrincess of Wales Hospital in Bridgend. Seven years ago it was rotten to the core. Now it is run very well and the service provided much improved. I am aware of the issues within Betsi Cadwalladr Trust, but your central point about the Welsh Assembly Government overseeing NHS chaos whilst England are doing OK is simply not true. You can do a HYUFD on me and quote spurious statistics, however lies, damn lies and statistics is my response, Back to the real world, and my anecdotes are as valid as yours.

    Yes the NHS in Wales is creaking under the burden of its duty of care as it is in England and Scotland.

    Perhaps across the UK the NHS is a victim of its own success, and it becomes less able to cope as it keeps people alive for longer.
    I seem to hear bad reports of Betsi Cadwallader NHS Trust from other sources.

    Locally we’re having trumpeted the advantages of a merger between Basildon, Chelmsford and Southend. I seem to recall that about 25 years ago they were all in one Trust/Authority and it was broken up in the interests of efficiency!
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 3,155
    edited January 11
    I feel a bit sorry for Nigel Farage. The Tory Right were happy to defect to his party when that was a way of causing no end of trouble for Dave; but now that he's outlived his usefulness to them they're being beastly to him and calling him the most frightful names. What a cynical and ungrateful bunch!
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 12,547
    Anazina said:

    The Corbynator and MaccyD will move swiftly to the centre ground if elected – they will be forced to as most of their MPs are well to the right of them. This truth means Labour are somewhat less scary than the hopelessly weak puppet PM Theresa May and the less-than-merry band of deranged xenophobic social conservatives who pull her strings.
    If that was true, why hasn't May been pulled to the center?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 10,190

    murali_s said:



    Patience my friend. We all know the Tories are clueless, heartless, incompetent and basically shit*. The lead will increase over time...

    Interestingly the LDs are up two - is this the start of a significant move I wonder?

    I'd like to think so... but this poll was conducted before Tim Farron's latest stunt. That won't have done us any great good so I'd be begging for 9% when the dust has cleared. I'm giving no details here of the nature or content of the debate on the topic - but his ears might well have been burning at around the time our constituency branch were meeting last night.

    Farron must be the first politician to apologise for making a non-homophobic statement. And then issue a clarification.
    You don’t think it’s part of a movement to detach the DUP from the Tories?
    Of course - the DUP and LibDems make such natural bedfellows. Fifty shades of orange.
    Strange things happen in politics.

    However, I’m somewhat sorry for Tim Farron. In a larger Party his views would have been a harmless eccentricity. After all, he’s simply saying he regards it as a sin, not a ciminal offence.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 11,550
    edited January 11

    You do know Wales is far worse than England with terrible daily reports on ITV Wales and labour in serious trouble over it

    Is that your answer to everything? "I know it's bad mate, but you should come to Wales, it's far worse".

    For once, stop trying to score political points and face the facts. The NHS is in crisis - a severe crisis - people are dying on hospital trolleys. That should shame us all. What as a country are we going to do about it?

    Accept that labour is failing in Wales. You cannot dismiss those of us who live in Wales and have witnessed best friends dying on wards with no one feeding them, another friend outside in a ambulance for hours while having a stroke he eventually died from and I had to wait 64 weeks for a bi lateral hernia operation

    I refer you back to my own experiences of Bro Abertawe Health Board and in particularPrincess of Wales Hospital in Bridgend. Seven years ago it was rotten to the core. Now it is run very well and the service provided much improved. I am aware of the issues within Betsi Cadwalladr Trust, but your central point about the Welsh Assembly Government overseeing NHS chaos whilst England are doing OK is simply not true. You can do a HYUFD on me and quote spurious statistics, however lies, damn lies and statistics is my response, Back to the real world, and my anecdotes are as valid as yours.

    Yes the NHS in Wales is creaking under the burden of its duty of care as it is in England and Scotland.

    Perhaps across the UK the NHS is a victim of its own success, and it becomes less able to cope as it keeps people alive for longer.

    .............................................................................................................................

    Did you see the report last night on ITV Wales where a whisle blower has been silenced by the Health minister when producing evidence of nepotism and cover ups between the Health boards and the Welsh Government. It was very damning.

    I am not saying England is not having problems but the same problems are evidenced in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland and when a figure of 33 billion per year is quotedas needed for the English NHS the scale of the problem is extraordinary and to be honest it needs to be removed from political point scoring and a cross party and cross devolved Assemblies solution arrived at
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 329

    Anazina said:

    The Corbynator and MaccyD will move swiftly to the centre ground if elected – they will be forced to as most of their MPs are well to the right of them. This truth means Labour are somewhat less scary than the hopelessly weak puppet PM Theresa May and the less-than-merry band of deranged xenophobic social conservatives who pull her strings.
    If that was true, why hasn't May been pulled to the center?
    Because most of her MPs are to the right of her?
  • EU to hold Britain to fishing quotas during Brexit transition

    Exclusive: EU’s plan means UK would essentially be leaving common fisheries policy in name only after Brexit

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/11/eu-to-hold-britain-to-fishing-quotas-during-brexit-transition?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 16,984

    EU to hold Britain to fishing quotas during Brexit transition

    Exclusive: EU’s plan means UK would essentially be leaving common fisheries policy in name only after Brexit

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/11/eu-to-hold-britain-to-fishing-quotas-during-brexit-transition?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    "during transition" - so a temporary measure... nobody cares .

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 26,029
    edited January 11

    EU to hold Britain to fishing quotas during Brexit transition

    Exclusive: EU’s plan means UK would essentially be leaving common fisheries policy in name only after Brexit

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/11/eu-to-hold-britain-to-fishing-quotas-during-brexit-transition?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Guardian super spin alert....Gove says AFTER Brexit....Diplomat says during transition....Isn't the whole point of a 2 year transition not exactly as suggested will happen...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 13,287
    Williamson is the icarus of Corbynites. Carried away with it all, he has flown too high for McD's liking and now on his way back to earth.

    I suspect we have not heard the last of him though.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 503

    Genius.

    Poor Tim Farron, being a Liberal Democrat opposed to gay sex is a bit like being a Savage Garden fan turning up to a Sound Garden gig by mistake.
    Seems the Lib Dems would rather have a liar as leader than a supposed 'homophobe' who doesn't oppose gay marriage or gay rights, or wants to jail gay people but has some moral issues with homosexuality because of his religion.

    What exactly is the purpose of the word Liberal in the Lib Dems - I know they have dropped the pretence on democracy re Brexit but Farron is surely bring a true liberal. Doesn't agree with it personally but happy to allow others to do what they want with their lives unhindered.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 16,698

    EU to hold Britain to fishing quotas during Brexit transition

    Exclusive: EU’s plan means UK would essentially be leaving common fisheries policy in name only after Brexit

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/11/eu-to-hold-britain-to-fishing-quotas-during-brexit-transition?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Guardian super spin alert....Gove says AFTER Brexit....Diplomat says during transition....Isn't the whole point of a 2 year transition not exactly as suggested will happen...
    So in your book Brexit doesn't happen on March 29th 2019 but when the transition ends?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 12,547
    brendan16 said:

    Genius.

    Poor Tim Farron, being a Liberal Democrat opposed to gay sex is a bit like being a Savage Garden fan turning up to a Sound Garden gig by mistake.
    Seems the Lib Dems would rather have a liar as leader than a supposed 'homophobe' who doesn't oppose gay marriage or gay rights, or wants to jail gay people but has some moral issues with homosexuality because of his religion.

    What exactly is the purpose of the word Liberal in the Lib Dems - I know they have dropped the pretence on democracy re Brexit but Farron is surely bring a true liberal. Doesn't agree with it personally but happy to allow others to do what they want with their lives unhindered.

    Is it being a true liberal to lie through your teeth during the election simply saying what you think the electorate want to hear even though you know you don't mean it?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 16,097
    brendan16 said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Williamson heading for the exit?

    Nothing to do with his Council Tax proposals?

    He's Shadow Minister for Fire and Emergency Services - I doubt having a view on Council tax, which, although not Labour's position, is far from heretical would be grounds for resignation
    Fire services are funded by council tax - so if you want more fire services presumably you need to pay for them somehow. Problem is his proposals would hit momentum central too hard - inner London, Brighton, Oxford and Cambridge renters!
    Their next proposal will be that landlords should pay council tax. As if they think that won’t make any difference.

    But it will allow them to attack landlords more for ever increasing rents.
This discussion has been closed.