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  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,332
    Re the NHS, do other European countries suffer the same winter crises every year? Are they equally pressured at the moment because of this Aussie flu? Do they have issues with elderly people staying too long in hospital because they have nowhere to go?

    If not, might they be doing something we're not? And if so, might it not make sense to see what they are doing and copy it?
  • BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 1,684
    Cyclefree said:

    Re the NHS, do other European countries suffer the same winter crises every year? Are they equally pressured at the moment because of this Aussie flu? Do they have issues with elderly people staying too long in hospital because they have nowhere to go?

    If not, might they be doing something we're not? And if so, might it not make sense to see what they are doing and copy it?

    When I lived in France, they did have a flu-related crisis that year and another a few years later.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Re the NHS, do other European countries suffer the same winter crises every year? Are they equally pressured at the moment because of this Aussie flu? Do they have issues with elderly people staying too long in hospital because they have nowhere to go?

    If not, might they be doing something we're not? And if so, might it not make sense to see what they are doing and copy it?

    They spend a higher proportion of their GDP on healthcare than we do.
  • BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 1,684
    ... and this year:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/06/doctors-nurses-urged-get-flu-jab-amid-warnings-french-epidemic/

    "On Thursday, public health officials in France issued an alert warning that flu has now reached epidemic levels in every region of the country. "
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,332
    edited January 11

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the NHS, do other European countries suffer the same winter crises every year? Are they equally pressured at the moment because of this Aussie flu? Do they have issues with elderly people staying too long in hospital because they have nowhere to go?

    If not, might they be doing something we're not? And if so, might it not make sense to see what they are doing and copy it?

    They spend a higher proportion of their GDP on healthcare than we do.
    Yes - but in what way? On an NHS? Or are you including private insurance in that figure?

    I'm not seeking to make a partisan point here. I'm genuinely curious.

    For instance: how is social care organised in France, Italy etc. How do people with dementia get treated? Do they have to sell their house? What about other long-term care?
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 4,541
    geoffw said:

    Great news – our universities have exceeded expectations and produced over one in four graduates with first class degrees and two thirds of the rest getting upper seconds. Students obviously working harder nowadays, as the BBC confirms.

    In my day at the University of Nottingham, only about 1 in 50 got a first. No one in my Deptartment that year despite one genius student who got 140% in Maths the first year because the marks had to be scaled up so that there wasn't an 80% fail rate.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 1,190
    edited January 11
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the NHS, do other European countries suffer the same winter crises every year? Are they equally pressured at the moment because of this Aussie flu? Do they have issues with elderly people staying too long in hospital because they have nowhere to go?

    If not, might they be doing something we're not? And if so, might it not make sense to see what they are doing and copy it?

    They spend a higher proportion of their GDP on healthcare than we do.
    Yes - but in what way? On an NHS? Or are you including private insurance in that figure?

    I'm not seeking to make a partisan point here. I'm genuinely curious.

    For instance: how is social care organised in France, Italy etc. How do people with dementia get treated? Do they have to sell their house? What about other long-term care?
    That's according to OECD figures for total healthcare spending, both public and private. I don't know the extent to which that includes social care.

    In Germany, healthcare is provided by a system of compulsory private insurance, with premiums deducted from wages. I seem to remember there also being a separate social care contribution ("Pflegeversicherung"), but I don't know if that counts as healthcare.

    One of the main pluses of the German system seemed to me to be the financial incentives given by the insurance companies for a healthy lifestyle so as to stop people falling ill in the first place. The main negative, I would have said, is the sheer bureaucratic overhead of the system.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 10,838

    Just had a thought... is this the start of a leadership campaign for Nige???

    His 2nd referendum kite flying is certainly at odds with Henry 'Bonking' Bolton's view.
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 747
    OECD database on expenditure and financing of healthcare systems.

    http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=SHA
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,332

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the NHS, do other European countries suffer the same winter crises every year? Are they equally pressured at the moment because of this Aussie flu? Do they have issues with elderly people staying too long in hospital because they have nowhere to go?

    If not, might they be doing something we're not? And if so, might it not make sense to see what they are doing and copy it?

    They spend a higher proportion of their GDP on healthcare than we do.
    Yes - but in what way? On an NHS? Or are you including private insurance in that figure?

    I'm not seeking to make a partisan point here. I'm genuinely curious.

    For instance: how is social care organised in France, Italy etc. How do people with dementia get treated? Do they have to sell their house? What about other long-term care?
    That's according to OECD figures for total healthcare spending, both public and private. I don't know the extent to which that includes social care.

    In Germany, healthcare is provided by a system of compulsory private insurance, with premiums deducted from wages. I seem to remember there also being a separate social care contribution ("Pflegeversicherung"), but I don't know if that counts as healthcare.

    One of the main pluses of the German system seemed to me to be the financial incentives given by the insurance companies for a healthy lifestyle so as to stop people falling ill in the first place. The main negative, I would have said, is the sheer bureaucratic overhead of the system.
    Thank you.

    It does seem to me that we might do well to look at what our European neighbours are doing rather than simply constantly trumpeting both how wonderful the NHS is and also that it is about to fall apart and needs more money.

    If more money is needed - and I don't doubt that it is - I don't see why in principle some form of compulsory health insurance and/or payment for some aspects of health care shouldn't form part of the mix, as well as payment from central government funds.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 13,546

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the NHS, do other European countries suffer the same winter crises every year? Are they equally pressured at the moment because of this Aussie flu? Do they have issues with elderly people staying too long in hospital because they have nowhere to go?

    If not, might they be doing something we're not? And if so, might it not make sense to see what they are doing and copy it?

    They spend a higher proportion of their GDP on healthcare than we do.
    Yes - but in what way? On an NHS? Or are you including private insurance in that figure?

    I'm not seeking to make a partisan point here. I'm genuinely curious.

    For instance: how is social care organised in France, Italy etc. How do people with dementia get treated? Do they have to sell their house? What about other long-term care?
    That's according to OECD figures for total healthcare spending, both public and private. I don't know the extent to which that includes social care.

    In Germany, healthcare is provided by a system of compulsory private insurance, with premiums deducted from wages. I seem to remember there also being a separate social care contribution ("Pflegeversicherung"), but I don't know if that counts as healthcare.

    One of the main pluses of the German system seemed to me to be the financial incentives given by the insurance companies for a healthy lifestyle so as to stop people falling ill in the first place. The main negative, I would have said, is the sheer bureaucratic overhead of the system.
    The Swiss system is very similar in that they encourage people to be healthy by giving you a partial refund on your deductible amount every year for what isn't used. The fewer visits to the doctor and the less overall you need, the bigger the refund amount.

    The other thing about comparing German or Swiss health spending to the NHS is that the former are both mostly private and vary from year to year, while the latter is all public and doesn't vary all that much. The NHS is also entirely a political body, or at least it has a political body handling it while the there isn't a political aspect to healthcare in most sensibly run private systems. It just exists. That's the best part of the Swiss healthcare system to me, people don't bang on about it like it's the most important thing in the world, it's just a service in the same way that gas and electricity are provided.
  • MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the NHS, do other European countries suffer the same winter crises every year? Are they equally pressured at the moment because of this Aussie flu? Do they have issues with elderly people staying too long in hospital because they have nowhere to go?

    If not, might they be doing something we're not? And if so, might it not make sense to see what they are doing and copy it?

    They spend a higher proportion of their GDP on healthcare than we do.
    Yes - but in what way? On an NHS? Or are you including private insurance in that figure?

    I'm not seeking to make a partisan point here. I'm genuinely curious.

    For instance: how is social care organised in France, Italy etc. How do people with dementia get treated? Do they have to sell their house? What about other long-term care?
    That's according to OECD figures for total healthcare spending, both public and private. I don't know the extent to which that includes social care.

    In Germany, healthcare is provided by a system of compulsory private insurance, with premiums deducted from wages. I seem to remember there also being a separate social care contribution ("Pflegeversicherung"), but I don't know if that counts as healthcare.

    One of the main pluses of the German system seemed to me to be the financial incentives given by the insurance companies for a healthy lifestyle so as to stop people falling ill in the first place. The main negative, I would have said, is the sheer bureaucratic overhead of the system.
    The Swiss system is very similar in that they encourage people to be healthy by giving you a partial refund on your deductible amount every year for what isn't used. The fewer visits to the doctor and the less overall you need, the bigger the refund amount.

    The other thing about comparing German or Swiss health spending to the NHS is that the former are both mostly private and vary from year to year, while the latter is all public and doesn't vary all that much. The NHS is also entirely a political body, or at least it has a political body handling it while the there isn't a political aspect to healthcare in most sensibly run private systems. It just exists. That's the best part of the Swiss healthcare system to me, people don't bang on about it like it's the most important thing in the world, it's just a service in the same way that gas and electricity are provided.
    Then, of course, there is the rather obvious point that the Swiss spend far more money on healthcare than we do. Perhaps people are more inclined to accept more generous healthcare spending if the contributions are separate from general taxation?
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 1,511

    I feel a bit sorry for Nigel Farage. The Tory Right were happy to defect to his party when that was a way of causing no end of trouble for Dave; but now that he's outlived his usefulness to them they're being beastly to him and calling him the most frightful names. What a cynical and ungrateful bunch!

    Some of us have been calling Farage the most frightul names for a very, very long time. The idea of him gloating at a Brexit vote was one of the biggest constraints to voting for it.

    The man is [self-censored].
    I can't stand the guy. But he did say that a 52/48 split in the referendum result would be unfinished business, and on that at least he was right. I went to bed on the night of the referendum expecting that to be the result except with remain ahead. There were quite a lot of people who thought the same I think. I also thought that such a close result would leave the matter unsettled. If we had another vote and got a narrow remain victory I don't think we'd be much better off frankly. The best I can come up with is delay Brexit for 10 years and schedule a referendum for then.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 1,568
    The Guardian reports an innovative solution to the high cost of care homes in Germany by German families.

    They export Granny to Hungary.

    https://tinyurl.com/yc2cjuq2

    “Rubbish is exported, atomic waste, old medicines … are deposited wherever it is cheapest to dispose of them … and now we're exporting our infirm and elderly. "
  • I feel a bit sorry for Nigel Farage. The Tory Right were happy to defect to his party when that was a way of causing no end of trouble for Dave; but now that he's outlived his usefulness to them they're being beastly to him and calling him the most frightful names. What a cynical and ungrateful bunch!

    Some of us have been calling Farage the most frightul names for a very, very long time. The idea of him gloating at a Brexit vote was one of the biggest constraints to voting for it.

    The man is [self-censored].
    I can't stand the guy. But he did say that a 52/48 split in the referendum result would be unfinished business, and on that at least he was right. I went to bed on the night of the referendum expecting that to be the result except with remain ahead. There were quite a lot of people who thought the same I think. I also thought that such a close result would leave the matter unsettled. If we had another vote and got a narrow remain victory I don't think we'd be much better off frankly. The best I can come up with is delay Brexit for 10 years and schedule a referendum for then.
    Better to leave and let those who want to campaign to rejoin from GE 2022 on
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 13,546

    Then, of course, there is the rather obvious point that the Swiss spend far more money on healthcare than we do. Perhaps people are more inclined to accept more generous healthcare spending if the contributions are separate from general taxation?

    I don't mind higher expenditure, I have the Rolls Royce of plans myself and don't mind spending the money on it because I know it's there immediately if/when I need it. The less bothered may choose to spend less, but they still get decent cover and because it's mandatory with subsidies for low and no income people it's not a country where people go without.

    Tbh, I probably pay less here than I would in the UK given that I would be in the additional rate bracket with the same income.

    I also think that because it's not "free" people abuse it less, no one goes to see a doctor because they got a few sniffles as they know it comes out of their deductible and that portion is then not eligible for a refund.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,864
    The BBC headlines are simply awful for the Government on the NHS.

    It's going to kill them unless there's a sustainable solution put in place.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 1,190
    edited January 11

    The Guardian reports an innovative solution to the high cost of care homes in Germany by German families.

    They export Granny to Hungary.

    https://tinyurl.com/yc2cjuq2

    “Rubbish is exported, atomic waste, old medicines … are deposited wherever it is cheapest to dispose of them … and now we're exporting our infirm and elderly. "

    Of course Germany also imports large numbers of low-skilled, young Eastern Europeans to help care for its elderly and infirm. That's something we can copy! Oh, wait...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 773

    The BBC headlines are simply awful for the Government on the NHS.

    It's going to kill them unless there's a sustainable solution put in place.

    Should have perhaps thought about it a bit sooner...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,864
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the NHS, do other European countries suffer the same winter crises every year? Are they equally pressured at the moment because of this Aussie flu? Do they have issues with elderly people staying too long in hospital because they have nowhere to go?

    If not, might they be doing something we're not? And if so, might it not make sense to see what they are doing and copy it?

    They spend a higher proportion of their GDP on healthcare than we do.
    Yes - but in what way? On an NHS? Or are you including private insurance in that figure?

    I'm not seeking to make a partisan point here. I'm genuinely curious.

    For instance: how is social care organised in France, Italy etc. How do people with dementia get treated? Do they have to sell their house? What about other long-term care?
    That's according to OECD figures for total healthcare spending, both public and private. I don't know the extent to which that includes social care.

    In Germany, healthcare is provided by a system of compulsory private insurance, with premiums deducted from wages. I seem to remember there also being a separate social care contribution ("Pflegeversicherung"), but I don't know if that counts as healthcare.

    One of the main pluses of the German system seemed to me to be the financial incentives given by the insurance companies for a healthy lifestyle so as to stop people falling ill in the first place. The main negative, I would have said, is the sheer bureaucratic overhead of the system.
    Thank you.

    It does seem to me that we might do well to look at what our European neighbours are doing rather than simply constantly trumpeting both how wonderful the NHS is and also that it is about to fall apart and needs more money.

    If more money is needed - and I don't doubt that it is - I don't see why in principle some form of compulsory health insurance and/or payment for some aspects of health care shouldn't form part of the mix, as well as payment from central government funds.
    It's principle versus politics.

    What you articulate is right. But the NHS is a religion.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 989
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Perhaps Farage gave him advice on dual citizenship.

    The only problem is how he gets from the embassy to heathrow without being arrested
    Smuggle him out in the diplomatic bag? Can you make someone a diplomat and give them the status AFTER they have entered the country?
    Further thought. Assange would only be a diplomat in the UK if he was accredited to the UK - not going to happen. An Ecuadorean representative to a UN body? Up to the UN to accredit him. In the Diplomatic Bag? The UK seizes the container first and pulls out Assange. The Ecuadoreans make a complaint about the UK's violation of immunity because it opened the bag, containing non-immune material, ie Assange. By then it's too late.
    Hm, opening diplomatic bags, very iffy. Firstly, it would mean every piece of UK diplomatic baggage would be targeted by every other country, plus Queens Messengers could be harassed. The row would be embarrassing as it would have to be authorised by TMay, and all other governments would know it. Assange is a pain and a nuisance, but causing a diplomatic incident would hurt the UK's reputation, particularly in South America where the temptation to play "games" is far greater than in Europe.
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 996

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    dr_spyn said:

    NHS Winter crisis hasn't turned into Corbyn's trump card.

    Bumping along with a 1% polling lead.

    All that noise and so little, so very little, heat.

    especially with the Night of the Short Straws overkill about the reshuffle.
    The fieldwork for this poll was mostly conducted before the reshuffle.
    But still in the media's blitz on the government over the NHS crisis or perceived crisis
    "Perceived crisis" - Simply LOLz
    You do know Wales is far worse than England with terrible daily reports on ITV Wales and labour in serious trouble over it
    Is that your answer to everything? "I know it's bad mate, but you should come to Wales, it's far worse".

    For once, stop trying to score political points and face the facts. The NHS is in crisis - a severe crisis - people are dying on hospital trolleys. That should shame us all. What as a country are we going to do about it?
    For a start, we could listen to MPs/Lords who know more than a bit about healthcare

    Dr Sarah Wollaston
    Dr/Lord David Owen
    Stephen Dorrell ex-MP, involved in health for almost his whole political career
    Norman Lamb

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/health-and-care/house/59135/stephen-dorrell-health-and-political-sloganising-dont-mix

    There may be examples in Labour too but these were the first people I thought of who are prepared to put the NHS above short-term party politics.
    Thats not a bad list SW and SD have indeed criticised their own Government.

    I do agree with these call for a cross party solution, but can see why Labour thinks the current crisis is something of this Governments own making and wants to make Political Capital.

    In my view both main parties reaching a concensus is much more important than point scoring. The problem is urgent both front benches should be involved in a tax hike solution.
    Belated reply, sorry for delay ...NI on very high incomes is paid at a marginal rate of 2%. Can this be raised to the standard rate for NI? That would raise a lot of money.

    I can't see that anyone could easily object to doing this. Having done it, we can discuss other ways to raise more ££.
This discussion has been closed.