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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Marf on TMay’s big idea – the war on plastic waste

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  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 18,059
    TGOHF said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio attack Trump's new statement on immigration from 'shithole' countries

    https://mobile.twitter.com/JebBush/status/951619449395843072

    His statement was disgusting and he is a disaster.
    I expect that British public opinion would agree with Donald Trump. Similar sentiments won the EU referendum for Leave.
    You have a very unfair and with respect a very prejeudiced attitude to the great British public
    What do you think the "Turkey (population 76 million)" poster was about?
    Anyone got a hankie ?
    Toby Young can supply you with the tissues you need.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,628
    Sadiq Khan seems to be rising with trace.

    His tweet that Trump got the message from Londoners will attract notice from the right people.

    25/1 next Lab leader...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 13,416

    HYUFD said:

    Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio attack Trump's new statement on immigration from 'shithole' countries

    https://mobile.twitter.com/JebBush/status/951619449395843072

    His statement was disgusting and he is a disaster.
    I expect that British public opinion would agree with Donald Trump. Similar sentiments won the EU referendum for Leave.
    Public condemnation, privately voting for Trump. At least that's the sense I get from it right now.
  • Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 1,898
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    On topic, the amount of plastic waste generated by supermarkets is obscene. The big shift has been away from selling fruit and veg by weight (where the shopper bags up what they want) to these little pre-packaged amounts. I imagine this has been done to save time so it doesn’t have to be weighed at the till. Moving back to that system with brown paper bags would be a start, but it actually requires some thought from the shopper which supermarkets seem keen to avoid.

    No, it has far more to do with the longer shelf life of packaged products.
    The better solution, for both producers and consumers, would be to incentivise easily recyclable or biodegradeable (they do exist) plastics.
    Biodegradable plastics, made from starch for example, do allow composting, so may be a way forward.

    May could usefully start with NHS procurement. We use a tremendous number of single use packs, containing a lot of plastics. Specifications to encourage reuse and recycling would be welcome. It may cost more, so would need funding, and that is where May is likely to founder. Will she put her money where her mouth is?
    The problem with 'biodegradable' plastics is that they don't really. The inclusion of starch allows the macroscopic breakdown with the starch component being digested. This releases plastic 'micro particles' that are probable even more dangerous to marine life forms.

    What we need is someway of breaking the polymer bonds, although this would release a lot of ethane and other volatile HC's
  • HYUFD said:

    Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio attack Trump's new statement on immigration from 'shithole' countries

    https://mobile.twitter.com/JebBush/status/951619449395843072

    His statement was disgusting and he is a disaster.
    I expect that British public opinion would agree with Donald Trump. Similar sentiments won the EU referendum for Leave.
    You have a very unfair and with respect a very prejeudiced attitude to the great British public
    What do you think the "Turkey (population 76 million)" poster was about?
    That was Farage who is as extreme on Brexit as some on here are extreme EU federalists.

    They are both as bad as each other but you suggest British opinion would back Farage when that is clearly silly
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 15,402

    HYUFD said:

    Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio attack Trump's new statement on immigration from 'shithole' countries

    https://mobile.twitter.com/JebBush/status/951619449395843072

    His statement was disgusting and he is a disaster.
    I expect that British public opinion would agree with Donald Trump. Similar sentiments won the EU referendum for Leave.
    You have a very unfair and with respect a very prejeudiced attitude to the great British public
    What do you think the "Turkey (population 76 million)" poster was about?
    Hardly a "shithole". It's a country many Brits are happy to holiday in. But happy for the arrangment to stay just that way, thank you very much.

    Frankly, I'm astonished you can bear to spend a minute in Hungary.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,511
    edited January 12

    HYUFD said:

    Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio attack Trump's new statement on immigration from 'shithole' countries

    https://mobile.twitter.com/JebBush/status/951619449395843072

    His statement was disgusting and he is a disaster.
    I expect that British public opinion would agree with Donald Trump. Similar sentiments won the EU referendum for Leave.
    Perhaps Trump should visit Barnsley or Harlow rather than London?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 13,416
    Scott_P said:

    TGOHF said:

    Eliminating plastics is just the sort of policy the Lib Dem’s would have been all over back when they were relevant.

    Now TMay takes it on with gusto (due to Gove), there is all sorts of sulking and pouting - let’s hope these sour grapes aren’t wrapped in plastic.

    image
    Brookes is another one that has been pushed over the edge of sanity by the leave vote.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,252

    Good to see Gove’s reforming zeal being applied to the Environment - and good for Mrs May to let him get stuck in. And as for those worrying about “degradation of Environmental standards” after we leave the EU - England (its devolved) is well ahead of the curve when it comes to bannng Microbeads - only the Dutch have similar legislation in the EU, while others (Ireland) are yet to legislate....

    LOL, kick the can 25 years down the road to pretend you are actually doing something , how Tory and how unsurprising CCHQlotta is cheer leader for it.
    Is there anything this useless lot of wasters will ever achieve in their term.
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    On topic, the amount of plastic waste generated by supermarkets is obscene. The big shift has been away from selling fruit and veg by weight (where the shopper bags up what they want) to these little pre-packaged amounts. I imagine this has been done to save time so it doesn’t have to be weighed at the till. Moving back to that system with brown paper bags would be a start, but it actually requires some thought from the shopper which supermarkets seem keen to avoid.

    No, it has far more to do with the longer shelf life of packaged products.
    The better solution, for both producers and consumers, would be to incentivise easily recyclable or biodegradeable (they do exist) plastics.
    Biodegradable plastics, made from starch for example, do allow composting, so may be a way forward.

    May could usefully start with NHS procurement. We use a tremendous number of single use packs, containing a lot of plastics. Specifications to encourage reuse and recycling would be welcome. It may cost more, so would need funding, and that is where May is likely to founder. Will she put her money where her mouth is?
    She commented yesterday that all the public sector will be required to stop the use of non degradable plastic and as far as cost is concerned it will by taxing their use out of existence as per plastic bags
    Has she taken into account the cost implications (infection control too, obviously)?
    I cannot answer your question but seems initially it will apply to the personal use of single use plastic within the public sector
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,252

    Foxy said:

    TGOHF said:

    Eliminating plastics is just the sort of policy the Lib Dem’s would have been all over back when they were relevant.

    Now TMay takes it on with gusto (due to Gove), there is all sorts of sulking and pouting - let’s hope these sour grapes aren’t wrapped in plastic.

    I would entirely agree. The problem of being led by Cable and known only as the anti-Brexit party has been the lack of imputus in a wider range of policy ideas.

    Norman Lamb would have been far better. He has a more nuanced approach to Brexit and has a host of worthwhile policies to greatly improve the country, particularly on health, mental health, young people, social care and housing. He didnt stand as he felt that his acceptance of Brexit (and desire for Norway style Brexit) put him at odds with LD policy and the newly expanded membership. I understand his reasoning, but the party would have benefited from a contest with that voice heard.

    We shall see if May is serious about plastic with what she does. She may just be having a phase post Blue Planet. Will she favour plastics regulation even if it becomes a significant obstacles to a trade deal with Trump? that is when we find out if she is a hollow vessel.
    Theresa May has identified a rich seem of disgust at plastic pollution and it is amazing that neither labour or especially the Lib Dems have not been first to address the issue

    All my family and relatives are united in their opposition to all plastic waste and have been delighted that this is now on the agenda at the highest level of government.

    I highlighted yesterday how Wales is second in Europe and third in the World for recycling rates and our Council is considering 4 weekly bin collections due to the way plastic, glass, cardboard and food are recycled through our trolley blocks weekly

    I also reiterated the call for the abolition of all non recyclable plastic bottles, coffee cups, takeaway containers, plastic forks and single use straws. I was attacked for suggesting single use straws need to go but they are killing sea life and especially turtles who are dying in agony. The idea this is for the Far East is naive to the extreme. Plastic is carried round the world on currents.

    It also seems that those of us who live by the sea, coast or rivers are more aware as we see the pollution on our own beaches every day and the amount of plastic waste washed up on our beaches in the recent storm was not only disgusting but totally unacceptable.

    Thinks have to change
    Pity she is doing nothing other than spouting empty platitudes on the subject. 25 Years is a real joke. Just shows she has no intention of doing anything of significance.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 18,252
    DavidL said:

    Of course there should be another referendum. Every generation should be entitled to its opinion on the biggest constitutional issue of the day. A generation is 25 years.

    We should pencil in the next one for 2041, and the one after that for 2066.

    Be careful about generations. In Scotland it seemed to amount to about 3 years.
    The generation is well past David, I want my new referendum and pronto, ie next 2 years max.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 40,059
    How can the UK be a shithole? Look at the roaring trade in stab vests.

    Anyway, must be off for a wander.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,112
    edited January 12

    On topic, the amount of plastic waste generated by supermarkets is obscene. The big shift has been away from selling fruit and veg by weight (where the shopper bags up what they want) to these little pre-packaged amounts. I imagine this has been done to save time so it doesn’t have to be weighed at the till. Moving back to that system with brown paper bags would be a start, but it actually requires some thought from the shopper which supermarkets seem keen to avoid.

    I think the policy on reucing plastics use is a good one. We owe it to our children and grandchildren not to degrade the environment. So two cheers to the Tories for running with this.

    If we all unwrapped the plastic from our fruit and veg at the till and left it there, before bringing the food home, I dare say the supermarkets would quickly find an alternative to avoid their cashiers being surrounded by a sea of plastic.

    Also manufacturers go mad with the amount of plastic wrapping on objects which really don’t need it. Yesterday I bought some cable ties: they came in so much stiff plastic, quite unnecessarily, that you’d have thought I was buying a grenade.

    I would like more green policies, frankly. Stuff to encourage the greening of front gardens rather than turning them into car parks, planting of trees, green roofs, water butts, gardens on roof terraces etc. There are a lot of small changes we can make which would make the environment around us more pleasant and reduce long-term harm to it.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 15,402
    TOPPING said:

    Sadiq Khan seems to be rising with trace.

    His tweet that Trump got the message from Londoners will attract notice from the right people.

    25/1 next Lab leader...

    He deserves to be much, much shorter odds than that. My tip for quite some while. He's the only proven vote-winner who could replace Corbyn.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 5,443

    Foxy said:

    TGOHF said:

    Eliminating plastics is just the sort of policy the Lib Dem’s would have been all over back when they were relevant.

    Now TMay takes it on with gusto (due to Gove), there is all sorts of sulking and pouting - let’s hope these sour grapes aren’t wrapped in plastic.

    I would entirely agree. The problem of being led by Cable and known only as the anti-Brexit party has been the lack of imputus in a wider range of policy ideas.

    Norman Lamb would have been far better. He has a more nuanced approach to Brexit and has a host of worthwhile policies to greatly improve the country, particularly on health, mental health, young people, social care and housing. He didnt stand as he felt that his acceptance of Brexit (and desire for Norway style Brexit) put him at odds with LD policy and the newly expanded membership. I understand his reasoning, but the party would have benefited from a contest with that voice heard.

    We shall see if May is serious about plastic with what she does. She may just be having a phase post Blue Planet. Will she favour plastics regulation even if it becomes a significant obstacles to a trade deal with Trump? that is when we find out if she is a hollow vessel.
    Theresa May has identified a rich seem of disgust at plastic pollution and it is amazing that neither labour or especially the Lib Dems have not been first to address the issue

    All my family and relatives are united in their opposition to all plastic waste and have been delighted that this is now on the agenda at the highest level of government.

    I highlighted yesterday how Wales is second in Europe and third in the World for recycling rates and our Council is considering 4 weekly bin collections due to the way plastic, glass, cardboard and food are recycled through our trolley blocks weekly

    I also reiterated the call for the abolition of all non recyclable plastic bottles, coffee cups, takeaway containers, plastic forks and single use straws. I was attacked for suggesting single use straws need to go but they are killing sea life and especially turtles who are dying in agony. The idea this is for the Far East is naive to the extreme. Plastic is carried round the world on currents.

    It also seems that those of us who live by the sea, coast or rivers are more aware as we see the pollution on our own beaches every day and the amount of plastic waste washed up on our beaches in the recent storm was not only disgusting but totally unacceptable.

    Thinks have to change
    https://www.libdems.org.uk/budget-17-plastic-waste-charge
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/sep/14/uk-to-reopen-inquiry-into-plastic-bottle-use
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 19,519
    Cyclefree said:

    On topic, the amount of plastic waste generated by supermarkets is obscene. The big shift has been away from selling fruit and veg by weight (where the shopper bags up what they want) to these little pre-packaged amounts. I imagine this has been done to save time so it doesn’t have to be weighed at the till. Moving back to that system with brown paper bags would be a start, but it actually requires some thought from the shopper which supermarkets seem keen to avoid.

    I think the policy on reucing plastics use is a good one. We owe it to our children and grandchildren not to degrade the environment. So two cheers to the Tories for running with this.

    If we all unwrapped the plastic from our fruit and veg at the till and left it there, before bringing the food home, I dare say the supermarkets would quickly find an alternative to avoid their cashiers being surrounded by a sea of plastic.

    Also manufacturers go mad with the amount of plastic wrapping on objects which really don’t need it. Yesterday I bought some cable ties: they came in so much stiff plastic, quite unnecessarily, that you’d have thought I was buying a grenade.

    I would like more green policies, frankly. Stuff to encourage the greening of front gardens rather than turning them into car parks, planting of trees, green roofs, water butts, gardens on roof terraces etc. There are a lot of small changes we can make which would make the environment around us more pleasant and reduce long-term harm to it.
    Plastic packaging can be infuriating.
  • malcolmg said:

    Good to see Gove’s reforming zeal being applied to the Environment - and good for Mrs May to let him get stuck in. And as for those worrying about “degradation of Environmental standards” after we leave the EU - England (its devolved) is well ahead of the curve when it comes to bannng Microbeads - only the Dutch have similar legislation in the EU, while others (Ireland) are yet to legislate....

    LOL, kick the can 25 years down the road to pretend you are actually doing something , how Tory and how unsurprising CCHQlotta is cheer leader for it.
    Is there anything this useless lot of wasters will ever achieve in their term.
    Morning Malc and a happy new year to you.

    In fairness TM and more likely Michael Gove have highlighted one of the issues of our time and many measures have already come in with the plastic bag and microbead bans. The 25 year lead in to abolish all single use plastic is not unreasonable but many actions will happen either by public demand on supermarkets and/or the introduction of taxes on manufacturers forcing them to change to bio degradable plastic.

    We both love Scotland and Scotland, together with Wales and the rest of the UK , has some of the most beautiful rivers and coastlines in the World and they have to be protected.

    Ii is surprising neither labour or the lib dems have not been first to the plate
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 4,234
    malcolmg said:

    Good to see Gove’s reforming zeal being applied to the Environment - and good for Mrs May to let him get stuck in. And as for those worrying about “degradation of Environmental standards” after we leave the EU - England (its devolved) is well ahead of the curve when it comes to bannng Microbeads - only the Dutch have similar legislation in the EU, while others (Ireland) are yet to legislate....

    LOL, kick the can 25 years down the road to pretend you are actually doing something , how Tory and how unsurprising CCHQlotta is cheer leader for it.
    Is there anything this useless lot of wasters will ever achieve in their term.
    Rome wasn't built in a day, malc. This was an obvious move by TMay which I'd have regarded as admirable whatever its origin. It isn't a great attack to say "you are going to take 25 years to do it" when your own plan to do it is, not ever. Nicola obv is engaged in crisis talks 24/7 over the future sugar content of Irn Bru, and just had her eye off the ball.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,112
    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    On topic, the amount of plastic waste generated by supermarkets is obscene. The big shift has been away from selling fruit and veg by weight (where the shopper bags up what they want) to these little pre-packaged amounts. I imagine this has been done to save time so it doesn’t have to be weighed at the till. Moving back to that system with brown paper bags would be a start, but it actually requires some thought from the shopper which supermarkets seem keen to avoid.

    I think the policy on reucing plastics use is a good one. We owe it to our children and grandchildren not to degrade the environment. So two cheers to the Tories for running with this.

    If we all unwrapped the plastic from our fruit and veg at the till and left it there, before bringing the food home, I dare say the supermarkets would quickly find an alternative to avoid their cashiers being surrounded by a sea of plastic.

    Also manufacturers go mad with the amount of plastic wrapping on objects which really don’t need it. Yesterday I bought some cable ties: they came in so much stiff plastic, quite unnecessarily, that you’d have thought I was buying a grenade.

    I would like more green policies, frankly. Stuff to encourage the greening of front gardens rather than turning them into car parks, planting of trees, green roofs, water butts, gardens on roof terraces etc. There are a lot of small changes we can make which would make the environment around us more pleasant and reduce long-term harm to it.
    Plastic packaging can be infuriating.
    Most of it is completely unnecessary. Its main use as far as I can see its to make it easier to present the product on shelves. Why things like nails and the rest can’t be put in small boxes rather than mummified in layers of thick plastic beats me.
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 779
    On-topic: this is the first thing the Government have done in a while that's caught my attention in a positive way. Amid all the cynicism they've got a hearing on the topic and can be seen to be taking it seriously, let's give a bit of credit where it's due. But my guess is that however much they talk about 'soft' issues while there is no compromise on Brexit that they still aren't going to reap the rewards in the ballot box. They've missed a trick; they need to find a way of showing how Brexit allows them to go further environmentally than they could at the moment. I'm sure they are working on it but they seem to be tone-deaf to the need to show how Brexit can work for the many - and it might quieten calls for that 2nd referendum as well.

    Off-topic: London won't miss Trump. Good riddance.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 15,402
    Anybody who watched Blue Planet 2 will give Theresa May some credit for action on this. Although it is still, er, a drop in the ocean.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 1,813
    edited January 12
    Not sure that this is "the big idea" - slight exaggeration there. One of dozens of ideas they may need to try and shift the perception. I just hope there aren't too many scapegoats and gimmicks. This idea seems a good one.

    Gove is perhaps more important, even though the "Chlorine Washed Chicken" stuff is mainly baloney - Yanks have hardly used it for years, and I think he will have to climb down on food less expensive than produced here. I have been hearing farmers talking about the need for higher food prices - which is the last thing we need.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 9,023

    Toby Young answers his critics. Short version: they were talking bollocks and still are.

    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/01/toby-young-once-more-unto-the-breach/

    His defence they he didn't know any of the racists at the secret conference is rather undermined by following them on twitter.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 1,813
    edited January 12
    On Chris Williams, I think that Corbyn is perhaps just cleaning house with a diversionary excuse. Williams is *slightly* (ahem) toxic.



  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 15,402
    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    On topic, the amount of plastic waste generated by supermarkets is obscene. The big shift has been away from selling fruit and veg by weight (where the shopper bags up what they want) to these little pre-packaged amounts. I imagine this has been done to save time so it doesn’t have to be weighed at the till. Moving back to that system with brown paper bags would be a start, but it actually requires some thought from the shopper which supermarkets seem keen to avoid.

    I think the policy on reucing plastics use is a good one. We owe it to our children and grandchildren not to degrade the environment. So two cheers to the Tories for running with this.

    If we all unwrapped the plastic from our fruit and veg at the till and left it there, before bringing the food home, I dare say the supermarkets would quickly find an alternative to avoid their cashiers being surrounded by a sea of plastic.

    Also manufacturers go mad with the amount of plastic wrapping on objects which really don’t need it. Yesterday I bought some cable ties: they came in so much stiff plastic, quite unnecessarily, that you’d have thought I was buying a grenade.

    I would like more green policies, frankly. Stuff to encourage the greening of front gardens rather than turning them into car parks, planting of trees, green roofs, water butts, gardens on roof terraces etc. There are a lot of small changes we can make which would make the environment around us more pleasant and reduce long-term harm to it.
    Plastic packaging can be infuriating.
    Most of it is completely unnecessary. Its main use as far as I can see its to make it easier to present the product on shelves. Why things like nails and the rest can’t be put in small boxes rather than mummified in layers of thick plastic beats me.
    In the case of fruit and veg, plastic pre-packaging is to ensure that self-service tills don't grind to a halt.

    Another reason to shun them.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 9,023
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio attack Trump's new statement on immigration from 'shithole' countries

    https://mobile.twitter.com/JebBush/status/951619449395843072

    His statement was disgusting and he is a disaster.
    I expect that British public opinion would agree with Donald Trump. Similar sentiments won the EU referendum for Leave.
    While I deplore his language, Trump does have a point. Immigration policy should favour peoples who have a history, culture and education that favours successful social integration.
    Norwegians were once deplored for failing to integrate into American society.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 12,929
    edited January 12

    TOPPING said:

    Sadiq Khan seems to be rising with trace.

    His tweet that Trump got the message from Londoners will attract notice from the right people.

    25/1 next Lab leader...

    He deserves to be much, much shorter odds than that. My tip for quite some while. He's the only proven vote-winner who could replace Corbyn.
    I'm on him at 50/1

    But difficult to see him jumping away from London mayor job in first term to win a by-election (which would probably have to be a London seat to be realistic). If he goes 1/2 way through 2nd term, as per Boris, then surely there will already be new leader. Or have I missed something?
  • TomsToms Posts: 1,453
    How in the heck did we manage 50 and more years ago?

    We wouldn't have lost our extensive public transport system if we had used it much---think Thatcher's "great car economy".

    We would reduce cumulative plastic poisoning of our environment if we were to stop using it so much.
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 779
    Brom said:

    They've learnt nothing and forgotten nothing.

    At the moment they'd lose because they think they've already won.
    I struggle to think of anyone who could lead a successful remain campaign. Give Will Straw another go!
    My first choice would be Jeremy Clarkson.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,692

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    On topic, the amount of plastic waste generated by supermarkets is obscene. The big shift has been away from selling fruit and veg by weight (where the shopper bags up what they want) to these little pre-packaged amounts. I imagine this has been done to save time so it doesn’t have to be weighed at the till. Moving back to that system with brown paper bags would be a start, but it actually requires some thought from the shopper which supermarkets seem keen to avoid.

    I think the policy on reucing plastics use is a good one. We owe it to our children and grandchildren not to degrade the environment. So two cheers to the Tories for running with this.

    If we all unwrapped the plastic from our fruit and veg at the till and left it there, before bringing the food home, I dare say the supermarkets would quickly find an alternative to avoid their cashiers being surrounded by a sea of plastic.

    Also manufacturers go mad with the amount of plastic wrapping on objects which really don’t need it. Yesterday I bought some cable ties: they came in so much stiff plastic, quite unnecessarily, that you’d have thought I was buying a grenade.

    I would like more green policies, frankly. Stuff to encourage the greening of front gardens rather than turning them into car parks, planting of trees, green roofs, water butts, gardens on roof terraces etc. There are a lot of small changes we can make which would make the environment around us more pleasant and reduce long-term harm to it.
    Plastic packaging can be infuriating.
    Most of it is completely unnecessary. Its main use as far as I can see its to make it easier to present the product on shelves. Why things like nails and the rest can’t be put in small boxes rather than mummified in layers of thick plastic beats me.
    In the case of fruit and veg, plastic pre-packaging is to ensure that self-service tills don't grind to a halt.

    Another reason to shun them.
    All self service tills I have used can cope with loose goods. Just put them in a brown paper bag instead of a plastic one and everything continues as normal.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,692
    tpfkar said:

    On-topic: this is the first thing the Government have done in a while that's caught my attention in a positive way. Amid all the cynicism they've got a hearing on the topic and can be seen to be taking it seriously, let's give a bit of credit where it's due. But my guess is that however much they talk about 'soft' issues while there is no compromise on Brexit that they still aren't going to reap the rewards in the ballot box. They've missed a trick; they need to find a way of showing how Brexit allows them to go further environmentally than they could at the moment. I'm sure they are working on it but they seem to be tone-deaf to the need to show how Brexit can work for the many - and it might quieten calls for that 2nd referendum as well.

    Off-topic: London won't miss Trump. Good riddance.

    I do see the hand of Gove behind all of this. He really does seem to be a breath of fresh air at DEFRA and it is a very welcome change.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 3,042
    Curious. Theresa spent the first part of her premiership distancing herself from Cameron and his wishy-washy, metropolitan ways; now she's courting the liberal green vote and copying his 'hug a husky'. What's going on? Has she realized that the BlueKip vote is both unreliable and a political dead end and that Jezza is creeping up on the centre ground behind her back? It's conceivable that she's been taking advice from George Osborne.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 26,204
    “Tokenism”:

    The UK now has one of world's toughest microbead bans

    http://edition.cnn.com/2018/01/09/health/microbead-ban-uk-intl/index.html

    Of course it’s not actually the U.K. that’s banned micro beads - just England - the others have yet to get round to it - I expect they’re too busy telling everyone how they’re so much better than Westminster....
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 342
    edited January 12

    Curious. Theresa spent the first part of her premiership distancing herself from Cameron and his wishy-washy, metropolitan ways; now she's courting the liberal green vote and copying his 'hug a husky'. What's going on? Has she realized that the BlueKip vote is both unreliable and a political dead end and that Jezza is creeping up on the centre ground behind her back? It's conceivable that she's been taking advice from George Osborne.

    Maybe she is just a bit plastic and like a plastic bag just blows in which ever direction the wind is blowing eqch week. Perhaps issues like rising youth crime and knife crime, the NHS, housing and social care are a bit too difficult.

    Or it could just be that Gove is the only person in the Cabinet with any ideas or imagination.
  • Curious. Theresa spent the first part of her premiership distancing herself from Cameron and his wishy-washy, metropolitan ways; now she's courting the liberal green vote and copying his 'hug a husky'. What's going on? Has she realized that the BlueKip vote is both unreliable and a political dead end and that Jezza is creeping up on the centre ground behind her back? It's conceivable that she's been taking advice from George Osborne.

    Advice must be coming from Gove and it will be popular. However, it must be followed up with action but with Gove action is guaranteed as he plots a way to a possible bid for next PM post Brexit
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 10,610
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio attack Trump's new statement on immigration from 'shithole' countries

    https://mobile.twitter.com/JebBush/status/951619449395843072

    His statement was disgusting and he is a disaster.
    Sounds like the sort of thing Alan Clark would have said.
    I'd hope he'd have managed something more stylishly offensive than that boorish cretinism.
  • brendan16 said:

    Curious. Theresa spent the first part of her premiership distancing herself from Cameron and his wishy-washy, metropolitan ways; now she's courting the liberal green vote and copying his 'hug a husky'. What's going on? Has she realized that the BlueKip vote is both unreliable and a political dead end and that Jezza is creeping up on the centre ground behind her back? It's conceivable that she's been taking advice from George Osborne.

    Maybe she is just a bit plastic and like a plastic bag just blows in which ever direction the wind is blowing next week. Perhaps issues like rising youth crime and knife crime, the NHS, housing and social care are a bit too difficultl
    And being cynical is easy. Gove is the driving force and things will change, they have to and do not underestimate how much the young are demanding it. I can see it from my children and grand children
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 26,204

    HYUFD said:

    Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio attack Trump's new statement on immigration from 'shithole' countries

    https://mobile.twitter.com/JebBush/status/951619449395843072

    His statement was disgusting and he is a disaster.
    I expect that British public opinion would agree with Donald Trump. Similar sentiments won the EU referendum for Leave.
    You have a very unfair and with respect a very prejeudiced attitude to the great British public
    What do you think the "Turkey (population 76 million)" poster was about?
    To wind people like you up?

    It certainly seems to have worked!
  • stodgestodge Posts: 3,460
    Morning all :)

    Oh dear, the Conservatives on here are getting excited because their leader has actually done something. Theresa May's new found love of "green" issues reminds me of Mrs Thatcher's flirtation with "green" politics just after the Green Party did so well in the 1989 European Parliamentary elections.

    Call me cynical but this is the Conservative Party once again pretending to "care" about an issue in order to get some votes from it and particularly the votes of younger people who deserted the party in droves for Labour last June.

    Green politics is multi-faceted and complex and plastic waste, while important, is just one aspect. What about air pollution in our cities, what about climate change ? I'd be more impressed if May and Gove announced some serious measures to clean our air and punish those actively polluting our cities not just with plastic waste but through the accumulation at street level of nitrogen oxide.

    Environmental damage also includes my particular bug bear - fly tipping. Why do people and above all contractors feel the need to dump their rubbish on street corners, down alleyways. on open ground or wherever ? I presume it's because they would have to pay to go to a local civic amenity site. That's absurd as the Council then has to pay to clear up the fly tipping. It's time for a Government committed to the environment to encourage personal responsibility not just in plastics but in all rubbish and to support Councils trying to keep the streets free from rubbish and our air clean to breathe.

    Anything else is cheap gimmicks, full of rhetoric and devoid of substance.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 1,813
    edited January 12
    .
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 15,402

    TOPPING said:

    Sadiq Khan seems to be rising with trace.

    His tweet that Trump got the message from Londoners will attract notice from the right people.

    25/1 next Lab leader...

    He deserves to be much, much shorter odds than that. My tip for quite some while. He's the only proven vote-winner who could replace Corbyn.
    I'm on him at 50/1

    But difficult to see him jumping away from London mayor job in first term to win a by-election (which would probably have to be a London seat to be realistic). If he goes 1/2 way through 2nd term, as per Boris, then surely there will already be new leader. Or have I missed something?
    One term mayor --> Westminster seat at a by-election with a view to having him as a sane replacement for Corbyn. (I'm sure there will be an opportunity tailor-made for his return.)

    All in time for the next election....
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 5,443

    brendan16 said:

    Curious. Theresa spent the first part of her premiership distancing herself from Cameron and his wishy-washy, metropolitan ways; now she's courting the liberal green vote and copying his 'hug a husky'. What's going on? Has she realized that the BlueKip vote is both unreliable and a political dead end and that Jezza is creeping up on the centre ground behind her back? It's conceivable that she's been taking advice from George Osborne.

    Maybe she is just a bit plastic and like a plastic bag just blows in which ever direction the wind is blowing next week. Perhaps issues like rising youth crime and knife crime, the NHS, housing and social care are a bit too difficultl
    And being cynical is easy. Gove is the driving force and things will change, they have to and do not underestimate how much the young are demanding it. I can see it from my children and grand children
    Trouble with the Tories is they don't seem to really care that much about the environment. It all seems to be done for publicity purposes - e.g Dave hugging huskies one moment, talking about 'green crap' the next.
    Too many of their MPs seem to be climate change sceptics, although the government generally thankfully isn't.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 10,610
    edited January 12
    Can any of the Govey (™ Gove) fanbois shed some light on his current position re devolution of powers? Pre the EU referendum he campaigned in Scotland on the basis that agfish and immigration powers should be returned to Scotland in the event of a leave vote. In a post referendum debate he said that he still believed this but had no means to expedite it as he was no longer a minister. Any word on his current view? As a minister. For Environment, Food and Rural Affairs.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,628

    TOPPING said:

    Sadiq Khan seems to be rising with trace.

    His tweet that Trump got the message from Londoners will attract notice from the right people.

    25/1 next Lab leader...

    He deserves to be much, much shorter odds than that. My tip for quite some while. He's the only proven vote-winner who could replace Corbyn.
    I'm on him at 50/1

    But difficult to see him jumping away from London mayor job in first term to win a by-election (which would probably have to be a London seat to be realistic). If he goes 1/2 way through 2nd term, as per Boris, then surely there will already be new leader. Or have I missed something?
    It is difficult to see but he is, together with La Thornberry (and Stevie Kinnock IMO), transparently suitable to be next Lab Leader. Given the chaotic state of UK politics atm I am reasonably comfortable with the bet.
  • Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 515
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio attack Trump's new statement on immigration from 'shithole' countries

    https://mobile.twitter.com/JebBush/status/951619449395843072

    His statement was disgusting and he is a disaster.
    I expect that British public opinion would agree with Donald Trump. Similar sentiments won the EU referendum for Leave.
    While I deplore his language, Trump does have a point. Immigration policy should favour peoples who have a history, culture and education that favours successful social integration.
    Why not, we could ask Farage to put a full page ad in the Telegraph listing those nationalities he would be comfortable having move in next door, and those he wouldn’t...
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,692

    Curious. Theresa spent the first part of her premiership distancing herself from Cameron and his wishy-washy, metropolitan ways; now she's courting the liberal green vote and copying his 'hug a husky'. What's going on? Has she realized that the BlueKip vote is both unreliable and a political dead end and that Jezza is creeping up on the centre ground behind her back? It's conceivable that she's been taking advice from George Osborne.

    Advice must be coming from Gove and it will be popular. However, it must be followed up with action but with Gove action is guaranteed as he plots a way to a possible bid for next PM post Brexit
    I genuinely don't think he wants it. He only stood last time to kill the Boris chances.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 42,096
    Morning shitholers

    Paging the Tories :D

    Carillion awarded Network Rail contracts
    Carillion announces two contract awards, both in respect of Network Rail’s Midland Mainline improvement programme. :o !

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,692

    Can any of the Govey (™ Gove) fanbois shed some light on his current position re devolution of powers? Pre the EU referendum he campaigned in Scotland on the basis that agfish and immigration powers should be returned to Scotland in the event of a leave vote. In a post referendum debate he said that he still believed this but had no means to expedite it as he was no longer a minister. Any word on his current view? As a minister. For Environment, Food and Rural Affairs.

    When he gave his speech last week at the Oxford conference I believe one of the things he was criticised for was for saying that his plans for changing subsidies only applied to England. People were saying 'what about the rest of the UK' but it seems clear the implication is Gove believes these powers will go to the devolved Parliaments and it will be up to them to decide how to deal with subsidies etc.
  • stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Oh dear, the Conservatives on here are getting excited because their leader has actually done something. Theresa May's new found love of "green" issues reminds me of Mrs Thatcher's flirtation with "green" politics just after the Green Party did so well in the 1989 European Parliamentary elections.

    Call me cynical but this is the Conservative Party once again pretending to "care" about an issue in order to get some votes from it and particularly the votes of younger people who deserted the party in droves for Labour last June.

    Green politics is multi-faceted and complex and plastic waste, while important, is just one aspect. What about air pollution in our cities, what about climate change ? I'd be more impressed if May and Gove announced some serious measures to clean our air and punish those actively polluting our cities not just with plastic waste but through the accumulation at street level of nitrogen oxide.

    Environmental damage also includes my particular bug bear - fly tipping. Why do people and above all contractors feel the need to dump their rubbish on street corners, down alleyways. on open ground or wherever ? I presume it's because they would have to pay to go to a local civic amenity site. That's absurd as the Council then has to pay to clear up the fly tipping. It's time for a Government committed to the environment to encourage personal responsibility not just in plastics but in all rubbish and to support Councils trying to keep the streets free from rubbish and our air clean to breathe.

    Anything else is cheap gimmicks, full of rhetoric and devoid of substance.

    As a matter of interest do you live by our coasts and have you ever experienced the disgusting amount of plastic suffocating our seas. Your other points are valid and we are leading in electric vehicles and I accept fly tipping is outrageous
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,692

    brendan16 said:

    Curious. Theresa spent the first part of her premiership distancing herself from Cameron and his wishy-washy, metropolitan ways; now she's courting the liberal green vote and copying his 'hug a husky'. What's going on? Has she realized that the BlueKip vote is both unreliable and a political dead end and that Jezza is creeping up on the centre ground behind her back? It's conceivable that she's been taking advice from George Osborne.

    Maybe she is just a bit plastic and like a plastic bag just blows in which ever direction the wind is blowing next week. Perhaps issues like rising youth crime and knife crime, the NHS, housing and social care are a bit too difficultl
    And being cynical is easy. Gove is the driving force and things will change, they have to and do not underestimate how much the young are demanding it. I can see it from my children and grand children
    Trouble with the Tories is they don't seem to really care that much about the environment. It all seems to be done for publicity purposes - e.g Dave hugging huskies one moment, talking about 'green crap' the next.
    Too many of their MPs seem to be climate change sceptics, although the government generally thankfully isn't.
    Being a climate change sceptic does not in any way stop one caring about the environment. Just look at the man who founded Greenpeace.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 13,416
    Pulpstar said:

    Morning shitholers

    Paging the Tories :D

    Carillion awarded Network Rail contracts
    Carillion announces two contract awards, both in respect of Network Rail’s Midland Mainline improvement programme. :o !

    Talk about being rewarded for failure.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 12,929
    Pulpstar said:

    Morning shitholers

    Paging the Tories :D

    Carillion awarded Network Rail contracts
    Carillion announces two contract awards, both in respect of Network Rail’s Midland Mainline improvement programme. :o !

    Is this the kind of large-scale construction company that John McD inadvertently announced a while back he would like to nationalise?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 42,096

    Can any of the Govey (™ Gove) fanbois shed some light on his current position re devolution of powers? Pre the EU referendum he campaigned in Scotland on the basis that agfish and immigration powers should be returned to Scotland in the event of a leave vote. In a post referendum debate he said that he still believed this but had no means to expedite it as he was no longer a minister. Any word on his current view? As a minister. For Environment, Food and Rural Affairs.

    When he gave his speech last week at the Oxford conference I believe one of the things he was criticised for was for saying that his plans for changing subsidies only applied to England. People were saying 'what about the rest of the UK' but it seems clear the implication is Gove believes these powers will go to the devolved Parliaments and it will be up to them to decide how to deal with subsidies etc.
    Sensible, Scotland has some very large and poor quality (In the truly technical sense of the word) areas of agriculture so overall a different approach to tax and subsidy of farms may work best there.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 12,929
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sadiq Khan seems to be rising with trace.

    His tweet that Trump got the message from Londoners will attract notice from the right people.

    25/1 next Lab leader...

    He deserves to be much, much shorter odds than that. My tip for quite some while. He's the only proven vote-winner who could replace Corbyn.
    I'm on him at 50/1

    But difficult to see him jumping away from London mayor job in first term to win a by-election (which would probably have to be a London seat to be realistic). If he goes 1/2 way through 2nd term, as per Boris, then surely there will already be new leader. Or have I missed something?
    It is difficult to see but he is, together with La Thornberry (and Stevie Kinnock IMO), transparently suitable to be next Lab Leader. Given the chaotic state of UK politics atm I am reasonably comfortable with the bet.
    BF punters seem to favour Thornberry at moment.

    But yes Khan is suitable for next leader. Not sure he can bring the cult with him though?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 42,096
    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Morning shitholers

    Paging the Tories :D

    Carillion awarded Network Rail contracts
    Carillion announces two contract awards, both in respect of Network Rail’s Midland Mainline improvement programme. :o !

    Talk about being rewarded for failure.
    It was back in 2017. Nevertheless it is amusing that is the flash item on their website ;)
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 12,929
    edited January 12
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Oh dear, the Conservatives on here are getting excited because their leader has actually done something. Theresa May's new found love of "green" issues reminds me of Mrs Thatcher's flirtation with "green" politics just after the Green Party did so well in the 1989 European Parliamentary elections.

    Call me cynical but this is the Conservative Party once again pretending to "care" about an issue in order to get some votes from it and particularly the votes of younger people who deserted the party in droves for Labour last June.

    Green politics is multi-faceted and complex and plastic waste, while important, is just one aspect. What about air pollution in our cities, what about climate change ? I'd be more impressed if May and Gove announced some serious measures to clean our air and punish those actively polluting our cities not just with plastic waste but through the accumulation at street level of nitrogen oxide.

    Environmental damage also includes my particular bug bear - fly tipping. Why do people and above all contractors feel the need to dump their rubbish on street corners, down alleyways. on open ground or wherever ? I presume it's because they would have to pay to go to a local civic amenity site. That's absurd as the Council then has to pay to clear up the fly tipping. It's time for a Government committed to the environment to encourage personal responsibility not just in plastics but in all rubbish and to support Councils trying to keep the streets free from rubbish and our air clean to breathe.

    Anything else is cheap gimmicks, full of rhetoric and devoid of substance.

    To be fair to Thatch, as an erstwhile chemist, she did get climate change.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 26,204

    Can any of the Govey (™ Gove) fanbois shed some light on his current position re devolution of powers? Pre the EU referendum he campaigned in Scotland on the basis that agfish and immigration powers should be returned to Scotland in the event of a leave vote. In a post referendum debate he said that he still believed this but had no means to expedite it as he was no longer a minister. Any word on his current view? As a minister. For Environment, Food and Rural Affairs.

    the implication is Gove believes these powers will go to the devolved Parliaments and it will be up to them to decide how to deal with subsidies etc.
    Taking decisions and spending their own money? They’ll not like that!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 15,402

    e.g Dave hugging huskies one moment, talking about 'green crap' the next.

    Depends what you have been feeding the huskies. I did suggest to Dave the broccoli detox diet might not be for them....

  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 6,276

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sadiq Khan seems to be rising with trace.

    His tweet that Trump got the message from Londoners will attract notice from the right people.

    25/1 next Lab leader...

    He deserves to be much, much shorter odds than that. My tip for quite some while. He's the only proven vote-winner who could replace Corbyn.
    I'm on him at 50/1

    But difficult to see him jumping away from London mayor job in first term to win a by-election (which would probably have to be a London seat to be realistic). If he goes 1/2 way through 2nd term, as per Boris, then surely there will already be new leader. Or have I missed something?
    It is difficult to see but he is, together with La Thornberry (and Stevie Kinnock IMO), transparently suitable to be next Lab Leader. Given the chaotic state of UK politics atm I am reasonably comfortable with the bet.
    BF punters seem to favour Thornberry at moment.

    But yes Khan is suitable for next leader. Not sure he can bring the cult with him though?
    surely the problem for Khan is timing.


    When is the next leadership election? How long does it take Khan to (1) resolve not to stand or lose the mayoralty; (2) become an MP (3) position for leader?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 10,610

    Can any of the Govey (™ Gove) fanbois shed some light on his current position re devolution of powers? Pre the EU referendum he campaigned in Scotland on the basis that agfish and immigration powers should be returned to Scotland in the event of a leave vote. In a post referendum debate he said that he still believed this but had no means to expedite it as he was no longer a minister. Any word on his current view? As a minister. For Environment, Food and Rural Affairs.

    When he gave his speech last week at the Oxford conference I believe one of the things he was criticised for was for saying that his plans for changing subsidies only applied to England. People were saying 'what about the rest of the UK' but it seems clear the implication is Gove believes these powers will go to the devolved Parliaments and it will be up to them to decide how to deal with subsidies etc.
    I hope you're right, but I presume 'until Brexit' Gove has precisely zero powers or oversight over Scottish agriculture in any case; it'd be foolhardy at this point for him to be making statements suggesting that he did or might have in the future.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sadiq Khan seems to be rising with trace.

    His tweet that Trump got the message from Londoners will attract notice from the right people.

    25/1 next Lab leader...

    He deserves to be much, much shorter odds than that. My tip for quite some while. He's the only proven vote-winner who could replace Corbyn.
    I'm on him at 50/1

    But difficult to see him jumping away from London mayor job in first term to win a by-election (which would probably have to be a London seat to be realistic). If he goes 1/2 way through 2nd term, as per Boris, then surely there will already be new leader. Or have I missed something?
    It is difficult to see but he is, together with La Thornberry (and Stevie Kinnock IMO), transparently suitable to be next Lab Leader. Given the chaotic state of UK politics atm I am reasonably comfortable with the bet.
    Kinnock is a fool, as the election documentary showed.

    So perhaps he is suitable!
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 5,443

    brendan16 said:

    Curious. Theresa spent the first part of her premiership distancing herself from Cameron and his wishy-washy, metropolitan ways; now she's courting the liberal green vote and copying his 'hug a husky'. What's going on? Has she realized that the BlueKip vote is both unreliable and a political dead end and that Jezza is creeping up on the centre ground behind her back? It's conceivable that she's been taking advice from George Osborne.

    Maybe she is just a bit plastic and like a plastic bag just blows in which ever direction the wind is blowing next week. Perhaps issues like rising youth crime and knife crime, the NHS, housing and social care are a bit too difficultl
    And being cynical is easy. Gove is the driving force and things will change, they have to and do not underestimate how much the young are demanding it. I can see it from my children and grand children
    Trouble with the Tories is they don't seem to really care that much about the environment. It all seems to be done for publicity purposes - e.g Dave hugging huskies one moment, talking about 'green crap' the next.
    Too many of their MPs seem to be climate change sceptics, although the government generally thankfully isn't.
    Being a climate change sceptic does not in any way stop one caring about the environment. Just look at the man who founded Greenpeace.
    Being a climate change sceptic makes it rather pointless to care about the environment.
  • BromBrom Posts: 900

    TOPPING said:

    Sadiq Khan seems to be rising with trace.

    His tweet that Trump got the message from Londoners will attract notice from the right people.

    25/1 next Lab leader...

    He deserves to be much, much shorter odds than that. My tip for quite some while. He's the only proven vote-winner who could replace Corbyn.
    I'm on him at 50/1

    But difficult to see him jumping away from London mayor job in first term to win a by-election (which would probably have to be a London seat to be realistic). If he goes 1/2 way through 2nd term, as per Boris, then surely there will already be new leader. Or have I missed something?
    One term mayor --> Westminster seat at a by-election with a view to having him as a sane replacement for Corbyn. (I'm sure there will be an opportunity tailor-made for his return.)

    All in time for the next election....
    He won't be leader at that election though. No way will Corbyn stand aside for him, so there will either be a bloody coup or Khan will take over if Corbyn loses in 2022 and lead Lab towards the following election. A lot can change of course. Hard to see Khan reaching parts of the electorate than Jezza can reach though.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 10,610
    edited January 12

    Can any of the Govey (™ Gove) fanbois shed some light on his current position re devolution of powers? Pre the EU referendum he campaigned in Scotland on the basis that agfish and immigration powers should be returned to Scotland in the event of a leave vote. In a post referendum debate he said that he still believed this but had no means to expedite it as he was no longer a minister. Any word on his current view? As a minister. For Environment, Food and Rural Affairs.

    the implication is Gove believes these powers will go to the devolved Parliaments and it will be up to them to decide how to deal with subsidies etc.
    Taking decisions and spending their own money? They’ll not like that!
    During the progress of the last Scotland Act, the SNP put forward (I think) 39 amendments, mostly to do with increased decision making and oversight over Scottish spending. Strangely they were all voted down by English, Welsh and Scottish Tory mps (not sure how the DUP voted, but I'm willing to take a guess).
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 13,416
    edited January 12
    Looks like there is a tentative agreement between the Union and SPD in Germany. The SPD look like they have capitulated on almost every single agenda.

    They are looking at extinction in the next federal election if they go ahead with this deal.
  • HHemmeligHHemmelig Posts: 348

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Oh dear, the Conservatives on here are getting excited because their leader has actually done something. Theresa May's new found love of "green" issues reminds me of Mrs Thatcher's flirtation with "green" politics just after the Green Party did so well in the 1989 European Parliamentary elections.

    Call me cynical but this is the Conservative Party once again pretending to "care" about an issue in order to get some votes from it and particularly the votes of younger people who deserted the party in droves for Labour last June.

    Green politics is multi-faceted and complex and plastic waste, while important, is just one aspect. What about air pollution in our cities, what about climate change ? I'd be more impressed if May and Gove announced some serious measures to clean our air and punish those actively polluting our cities not just with plastic waste but through the accumulation at street level of nitrogen oxide.

    Environmental damage also includes my particular bug bear - fly tipping. Why do people and above all contractors feel the need to dump their rubbish on street corners, down alleyways. on open ground or wherever ? I presume it's because they would have to pay to go to a local civic amenity site. That's absurd as the Council then has to pay to clear up the fly tipping. It's time for a Government committed to the environment to encourage personal responsibility not just in plastics but in all rubbish and to support Councils trying to keep the streets free from rubbish and our air clean to breathe.

    Anything else is cheap gimmicks, full of rhetoric and devoid of substance.

    To be fair to Thatch, as an erstwhile chemist, she did get climate change.
    True. She also mandated more efficient petrol engines and didn't share Brown and Blair's ruinous obsession with diesel. She banned leaded petrol and introduced catalytic converters (though they actually came in under Major's watch). Actually, through the sheer amount of closures of coal mines and heavy industrial plants on her watch Thatcher probably achieved a greater reduction in environmental damage in the UK than any other recent PM.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,692

    brendan16 said:

    Curious. Theresa spent the first part of her premiership distancing herself from Cameron and his wishy-washy, metropolitan ways; now she's courting the liberal green vote and copying his 'hug a husky'. What's going on? Has she realized that the BlueKip vote is both unreliable and a political dead end and that Jezza is creeping up on the centre ground behind her back? It's conceivable that she's been taking advice from George Osborne.

    Maybe she is just a bit plastic and like a plastic bag just blows in which ever direction the wind is blowing next week. Perhaps issues like rising youth crime and knife crime, the NHS, housing and social care are a bit too difficultl
    And being cynical is easy. Gove is the driving force and things will change, they have to and do not underestimate how much the young are demanding it. I can see it from my children and grand children
    Trouble with the Tories is they don't seem to really care that much about the environment. It all seems to be done for publicity purposes - e.g Dave hugging huskies one moment, talking about 'green crap' the next.
    Too many of their MPs seem to be climate change sceptics, although the government generally thankfully isn't.
    Being a climate change sceptic does not in any way stop one caring about the environment. Just look at the man who founded Greenpeace.
    Being a climate change sceptic makes it rather pointless to care about the environment.
    Of course it doesn't. Unless of course you are one of those dimwits who think the climate is (or, in the case of AGW proponents like yourself, should be) unchanging.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,628

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sadiq Khan seems to be rising with trace.

    His tweet that Trump got the message from Londoners will attract notice from the right people.

    25/1 next Lab leader...

    He deserves to be much, much shorter odds than that. My tip for quite some while. He's the only proven vote-winner who could replace Corbyn.
    I'm on him at 50/1

    But difficult to see him jumping away from London mayor job in first term to win a by-election (which would probably have to be a London seat to be realistic). If he goes 1/2 way through 2nd term, as per Boris, then surely there will already be new leader. Or have I missed something?
    It is difficult to see but he is, together with La Thornberry (and Stevie Kinnock IMO), transparently suitable to be next Lab Leader. Given the chaotic state of UK politics atm I am reasonably comfortable with the bet.
    BF punters seem to favour Thornberry at moment.

    But yes Khan is suitable for next leader. Not sure he can bring the cult with him though?
    surely the problem for Khan is timing.


    When is the next leadership election? How long does it take Khan to (1) resolve not to stand or lose the mayoralty; (2) become an MP (3) position for leader?
    He is already positioned for Leader. As for timing - returns to Parliament for 2022 GE, Jezza loses or wins, and he is ready to take over. I would give Jezza a year or two post GE whatever the result before he steps down.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,692

    Can any of the Govey (™ Gove) fanbois shed some light on his current position re devolution of powers? Pre the EU referendum he campaigned in Scotland on the basis that agfish and immigration powers should be returned to Scotland in the event of a leave vote. In a post referendum debate he said that he still believed this but had no means to expedite it as he was no longer a minister. Any word on his current view? As a minister. For Environment, Food and Rural Affairs.

    When he gave his speech last week at the Oxford conference I believe one of the things he was criticised for was for saying that his plans for changing subsidies only applied to England. People were saying 'what about the rest of the UK' but it seems clear the implication is Gove believes these powers will go to the devolved Parliaments and it will be up to them to decide how to deal with subsidies etc.
    I hope you're right, but I presume 'until Brexit' Gove has precisely zero powers or oversight over Scottish agriculture in any case; it'd be foolhardy at this point for him to be making statements suggesting that he did or might have in the future.
    Which is why he hasn't. And got attacked for it.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 6,276
    MaxPB said:

    Looks like there is a tentative agreement between the Union and SPD in Germany. The SPD look like they have capitulated on almost every single agenda.

    They are looking at extinction in the next federal election if they go ahead with this deal.

    The party would need to vote in favour
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 1,188
    edited January 12

    brendan16 said:

    Curious. Theresa spent the first part of her premiership distancing herself from Cameron and his wishy-washy, metropolitan ways; now she's courting the liberal green vote and copying his 'hug a husky'. What's going on? Has she realized that the BlueKip vote is both unreliable and a political dead end and that Jezza is creeping up on the centre ground behind her back? It's conceivable that she's been taking advice from George Osborne.

    Maybe she is just a bit plastic and like a plastic bag just blows in which ever direction the wind is blowing next week. Perhaps issues like rising youth crime and knife crime, the NHS, housing and social care are a bit too difficultl
    And being cynical is easy. Gove is the driving force and things will change, they have to and do not underestimate how much the young are demanding it. I can see it from my children and grand children
    Trouble with the Tories is they don't seem to really care that much about the environment. It all seems to be done for publicity purposes - e.g Dave hugging huskies one moment, talking about 'green crap' the next.
    Too many of their MPs seem to be climate change sceptics, although the government generally thankfully isn't.
    Being a climate change sceptic does not in any way stop one caring about the environment. Just look at the man who founded Greenpeace.
    Being a climate change sceptic makes it rather pointless to care about the environment.
    Yes, there not a lot of point in worrying about wildlife havens in, for example, the Norfolk Broads if you're happy for it all to be sea in a couple of centuries.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 4,234

    brendan16 said:

    Curious. Theresa spent the first part of her premiership distancing herself from Cameron and his wishy-washy, metropolitan ways; now she's courting the liberal green vote and copying his 'hug a husky'. What's going on? Has she realized that the BlueKip vote is both unreliable and a political dead end and that Jezza is creeping up on the centre ground behind her back? It's conceivable that she's been taking advice from George Osborne.

    Maybe she is just a bit plastic and like a plastic bag just blows in which ever direction the wind is blowing next week. Perhaps issues like rising youth crime and knife crime, the NHS, housing and social care are a bit too difficultl
    And being cynical is easy. Gove is the driving force and things will change, they have to and do not underestimate how much the young are demanding it. I can see it from my children and grand children
    Trouble with the Tories is they don't seem to really care that much about the environment. It all seems to be done for publicity purposes - e.g Dave hugging huskies one moment, talking about 'green crap' the next.
    Too many of their MPs seem to be climate change sceptics, although the government generally thankfully isn't.
    Being a climate change sceptic does not in any way stop one caring about the environment. Just look at the man who founded Greenpeace.
    Being a climate change sceptic makes it rather pointless to care about the environment.
    So different arguments are not to be considered one by one and accepted or rejected on their specific, individual merits? They come in big bundles, not to be retailed individually, like diet coke at Tescos? And being sceptical about proposition x is synonymous with stating that proposition x is untrue?

    You really, really need to rethink your username.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 10,610
    MaxPB said:

    Looks like there is a tentative agreement between the Union and SPD in Germany. The SPD look like they have capitulated on almost every single agenda.

    They are looking at extinction in the next federal election if they go ahead with this deal.

    What, Merkel remains as chancellor? Can't be right..
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 15,402

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sadiq Khan seems to be rising with trace.

    His tweet that Trump got the message from Londoners will attract notice from the right people.

    25/1 next Lab leader...

    He deserves to be much, much shorter odds than that. My tip for quite some while. He's the only proven vote-winner who could replace Corbyn.
    I'm on him at 50/1

    But difficult to see him jumping away from London mayor job in first term to win a by-election (which would probably have to be a London seat to be realistic). If he goes 1/2 way through 2nd term, as per Boris, then surely there will already be new leader. Or have I missed something?
    It is difficult to see but he is, together with La Thornberry (and Stevie Kinnock IMO), transparently suitable to be next Lab Leader. Given the chaotic state of UK politics atm I am reasonably comfortable with the bet.
    Kinnock is a fool, as the election documentary showed.

    So perhaps he is suitable!
    My opinion of La Thornberry is no higher.....
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 12,929

    MaxPB said:

    Looks like there is a tentative agreement between the Union and SPD in Germany. The SPD look like they have capitulated on almost every single agenda.

    They are looking at extinction in the next federal election if they go ahead with this deal.

    What, Merkel remains as chancellor? Can't be right..


    although in the comments on the thread a European pol sci disagrees.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 26,204

    Can any of the Govey (™ Gove) fanbois shed some light on his current position re devolution of powers? Pre the EU referendum he campaigned in Scotland on the basis that agfish and immigration powers should be returned to Scotland in the event of a leave vote. In a post referendum debate he said that he still believed this but had no means to expedite it as he was no longer a minister. Any word on his current view? As a minister. For Environment, Food and Rural Affairs.

    the implication is Gove believes these powers will go to the devolved Parliaments and it will be up to them to decide how to deal with subsidies etc.
    Taking decisions and spending their own money? They’ll not like that!
    During the progress of the last Scotland Act, the SNP put forward (I think) 39 amendments, mostly to do with increased decision making and oversight over Scottish spending. Strangely they were all voted down by English, Welsh and Scottish Tory mps (not sure how the DUP voted, but I'm willing to take a guess).
    Funny how no one mentions “Full Fiscal Autonomy” anymore.....

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-33146586
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,692

    brendan16 said:

    Curious. Theresa spent the first part of her premiership distancing herself from Cameron and his wishy-washy, metropolitan ways; now she's courting the liberal green vote and copying his 'hug a husky'. What's going on? Has she realized that the BlueKip vote is both unreliable and a political dead end and that Jezza is creeping up on the centre ground behind her back? It's conceivable that she's been taking advice from George Osborne.

    Maybe she is just a bit plastic and like a plastic bag just blows in which ever direction the wind is blowing next week. Perhaps issues like rising youth crime and knife crime, the NHS, housing and social care are a bit too difficultl
    And being cynical is easy. Gove is the driving force and things will change, they have to and do not underestimate how much the young are demanding it. I can see it from my children and grand children
    Trouble with the Tories is they don't seem to really care that much about the environment. It all seems to be done for publicity purposes - e.g Dave hugging huskies one moment, talking about 'green crap' the next.
    Too many of their MPs seem to be climate change sceptics, although the government generally thankfully isn't.
    Being a climate change sceptic does not in any way stop one caring about the environment. Just look at the man who founded Greenpeace.
    Being a climate change sceptic makes it rather pointless to care about the environment.
    Yes, there not a lot of point in worrying about wildlife havens in, for example, the Norfolk Broads if you're happy for it all to be sea in a couple of centuries.
    If we leave it to nature the Norfolk Broads will be in the sea anyway in a couple of centuries. The East Anglian coast has been disappearing into the sea since at least Roman times.

    And of course the Broads are man made in the first place.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 16,536

    brendan16 said:

    Curious. Theresa spent the first part of her premiership distancing herself from Cameron and his wishy-washy, metropolitan ways; now she's courting the liberal green vote and copying his 'hug a husky'. What's going on? Has she realized that the BlueKip vote is both unreliable and a political dead end and that Jezza is creeping up on the centre ground behind her back? It's conceivable that she's been taking advice from George Osborne.

    Maybe she is just a bit plastic and like a plastic bag just blows in which ever direction the wind is blowing next week. Perhaps issues like rising youth crime and knife crime, the NHS, housing and social care are a bit too difficultl
    And being cynical is easy. Gove is the driving force and things will change, they have to and do not underestimate how much the young are demanding it. I can see it from my children and grand children
    Trouble with the Tories is they don't seem to really care that much about the environment. It all seems to be done for publicity purposes - e.g Dave hugging huskies one moment, talking about 'green crap' the next.
    Too many of their MPs seem to be climate change sceptics, although the government generally thankfully isn't.
    Being a climate change sceptic does not in any way stop one caring about the environment. Just look at the man who founded Greenpeace.
    Being a climate change sceptic makes it rather pointless to care about the environment.
    Bollocks.

    Sceptics are following the science not the religion.

    Bjorn Lomberg cares more about the environment than Al Gore.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 13,416

    MaxPB said:

    Looks like there is a tentative agreement between the Union and SPD in Germany. The SPD look like they have capitulated on almost every single agenda.

    They are looking at extinction in the next federal election if they go ahead with this deal.

    What, Merkel remains as chancellor? Can't be right..
    The only winners from this deal if AfD and Die Linke.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 13,416

    MaxPB said:

    Looks like there is a tentative agreement between the Union and SPD in Germany. The SPD look like they have capitulated on almost every single agenda.

    They are looking at extinction in the next federal election if they go ahead with this deal.

    What, Merkel remains as chancellor? Can't be right..


    although in the comments on the thread a European pol sci disagrees.
    European Pol Scis are the ones who said AfD would be a non factor and that the UK would never vote to leave.
  • TGOHF said:

    brendan16 said:

    Curious. Theresa spent the first part of her premiership distancing herself from Cameron and his wishy-washy, metropolitan ways; now she's courting the liberal green vote and copying his 'hug a husky'. What's going on? Has she realized that the BlueKip vote is both unreliable and a political dead end and that Jezza is creeping up on the centre ground behind her back? It's conceivable that she's been taking advice from George Osborne.

    Maybe she is just a bit plastic and like a plastic bag just blows in which ever direction the wind is blowing next week. Perhaps issues like rising youth crime and knife crime, the NHS, housing and social care are a bit too difficultl
    And being cynical is easy. Gove is the driving force and things will change, they have to and do not underestimate how much the young are demanding it. I can see it from my children and grand children
    Trouble with the Tories is they don't seem to really care that much about the environment. It all seems to be done for publicity purposes - e.g Dave hugging huskies one moment, talking about 'green crap' the next.
    Too many of their MPs seem to be climate change sceptics, although the government generally thankfully isn't.
    Being a climate change sceptic does not in any way stop one caring about the environment. Just look at the man who founded Greenpeace.
    Being a climate change sceptic makes it rather pointless to care about the environment.
    Bollocks.

    Sceptics are following the science not the religion.

    Bjorn Lomberg cares more about the environment than Al Gore.
    Most of those who call themselves climate change sceptics are nothing of the sort. Refusing to listen to evidence is not scepticism; it is denial. They are deniers.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 10,610

    Can any of the Govey (™ Gove) fanbois shed some light on his current position re devolution of powers? Pre the EU referendum he campaigned in Scotland on the basis that agfish and immigration powers should be returned to Scotland in the event of a leave vote. In a post referendum debate he said that he still believed this but had no means to expedite it as he was no longer a minister. Any word on his current view? As a minister. For Environment, Food and Rural Affairs.

    the implication is Gove believes these powers will go to the devolved Parliaments and it will be up to them to decide how to deal with subsidies etc.
    Taking decisions and spending their own money? They’ll not like that!
    During the progress of the last Scotland Act, the SNP put forward (I think) 39 amendments, mostly to do with increased decision making and oversight over Scottish spending. Strangely they were all voted down by English, Welsh and Scottish Tory mps (not sure how the DUP voted, but I'm willing to take a guess).
    Funny how no one mentions “Full Fiscal Autonomy” anymore.....

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-33146586
    Voted down by English Tory mps. Fit can ye dae.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 10,610
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Looks like there is a tentative agreement between the Union and SPD in Germany. The SPD look like they have capitulated on almost every single agenda.

    They are looking at extinction in the next federal election if they go ahead with this deal.

    What, Merkel remains as chancellor? Can't be right..
    The only winners from this deal if AfD and Die Linke.
    Not looking great for anyone but Mutti for next chancellor bettors either.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,112
    Re those celebrating Khan's tweet about Trump getting the message from Londoners...

    I am in two minds about this. I do not like Trump at all.

    But celebrating that the leader of a very major world power does not think it worth his while coming, especially given the other countries he has visited, does rather highlight our irrelevance.

    France managed to offer him a welcome - and I doubt that either Macron or the Parisians are any more fond of Trump than Khan and Londoners. I am quite certain that France is using that visit to position itself as the US's special friend in Europe.

    Khan is in danger of celebrating something which emphasises our diminished status in the world. A short-term tactical victory at the expense of a long-term strategy. If he really does have ambitions for the top job, he might want to think a bit harder about issues like this.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 3,042
    TGOHF said:

    brendan16 said:

    Curious. Theresa spent the first part of her premiership distancing herself from Cameron and his wishy-washy, metropolitan ways; now she's courting the liberal green vote and copying his 'hug a husky'. What's going on? Has she realized that the BlueKip vote is both unreliable and a political dead end and that Jezza is creeping up on the centre ground behind her back? It's conceivable that she's been taking advice from George Osborne.

    Maybe she is just a bit plastic and like a plastic bag just blows in which ever direction the wind is blowing next week. Perhaps issues like rising youth crime and knife crime, the NHS, housing and social care are a bit too difficultl
    And being cynical is easy. Gove is the driving force and things will change, they have to and do not underestimate how much the young are demanding it. I can see it from my children and grand children
    Trouble with the Tories is they don't seem to really care that much about the environment. It all seems to be done for publicity purposes - e.g Dave hugging huskies one moment, talking about 'green crap' the next.
    Too many of their MPs seem to be climate change sceptics, although the government generally thankfully isn't.
    Being a climate change sceptic does not in any way stop one caring about the environment. Just look at the man who founded Greenpeace.
    Being a climate change sceptic makes it rather pointless to care about the environment.
    Bollocks.

    Sceptics are following the science not the religion.

    Bjorn Lomberg cares more about the environment than Al Gore.
    Climate-change sceptics who are climate scientists are a bit thin on the ground though.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,692

    TGOHF said:

    brendan16 said:

    Curious. Theresa spent the first part of her premiership distancing herself from Cameron and his wishy-washy, metropolitan ways; now she's courting the liberal green vote and copying his 'hug a husky'. What's going on? Has she realized that the BlueKip vote is both unreliable and a political dead end and that Jezza is creeping up on the centre ground behind her back? It's conceivable that she's been taking advice from George Osborne.

    Maybe she is just a bit plastic and like a plastic bag just blows in which ever direction the wind is blowing next week. Perhaps issues like rising youth crime and knife crime, the NHS, housing and social care are a bit too difficultl
    And being cynical is easy. Gove is the driving force and things will change, they have to and do not underestimate how much the young are demanding it. I can see it from my children and grand children
    Trouble with the Tories is they don't seem to really care that much about the environment. It all seems to be done for publicity purposes - e.g Dave hugging huskies one moment, talking about 'green crap' the next.
    Too many of their MPs seem to be climate change sceptics, although the government generally thankfully isn't.
    Being a climate change sceptic does not in any way stop one caring about the environment. Just look at the man who founded Greenpeace.
    Being a climate change sceptic makes it rather pointless to care about the environment.
    Bollocks.

    Sceptics are following the science not the religion.

    Bjorn Lomberg cares more about the environment than Al Gore.
    Most of those who call themselves climate change sceptics are nothing of the sort. Refusing to listen to evidence is not scepticism; it is denial. They are deniers.
    As TGOHF said. Bollocks. It is morons like you blindly following your religion without anything but the most superficial understanding of the principles who give science a bad name.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 13,416
    Cyclefree said:

    Re those celebrating Khan's tweet about Trump getting the message from Londoners...

    I am in two minds about this. I do not like Trump at all.

    But celebrating that the leader of a very major world power does not think it worth his while coming, especially given the other countries he has visited, does rather highlight our irrelevance.

    France managed to offer him a welcome - and I doubt that either Macron or the Parisians are any more fond of Trump than Khan and Londoners. I am quite certain that France is using that visit to position itself as the US's special friend in Europe.

    Khan is in danger of celebrating something which emphasises our diminished status in the world. A short-term tactical victory at the expense of a long-term strategy. If he really does have ambitions for the top job, he might want to think a bit harder about issues like this.

    The problem is that the left can't wait to signal their virtue, especially when it comes to Trump. Their brain filters completely turn off. Much in the same way the American left seem to have lost it over the "shitehole" comment. A majority of Americans will privately agree with Trump and the US left are not speaking the language of the majority, leaving Trump to do it in his own blockheaded way.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,859
    Cyclefree said:

    Re those celebrating Khan's tweet about Trump getting the message from Londoners...

    @BorisJohnson: The US is the biggest single investor in the UK - yet Khan & Corbyn seem determined to put this crucial relationship at risk. We will not allow US-UK relations to be endangered by some puffed up pompous popinjay in City Hall.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 10,610
    edited January 12
    Scott_P said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re those celebrating Khan's tweet about Trump getting the message from Londoners...

    @BorisJohnson: The US is the biggest single investor in the UK - yet Khan & Corbyn seem determined to put this crucial relationship at risk. We will not allow US-UK relations to be endangered by some puffed up pompous popinjay in City Hall.
    A puffed up pompous popinjay in City Hall expert speaks.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 7,190
    Cyclefree said:

    Re those celebrating Khan's tweet about Trump getting the message from Londoners...

    I am in two minds about this. I do not like Trump at all.

    But celebrating that the leader of a very major world power does not think it worth his while coming, especially given the other countries he has visited, does rather highlight our irrelevance.

    France managed to offer him a welcome - and I doubt that either Macron or the Parisians are any more fond of Trump than Khan and Londoners. I am quite certain that France is using that visit to position itself as the US's special friend in Europe.

    Khan is in danger of celebrating something which emphasises our diminished status in the world. A short-term tactical victory at the expense of a long-term strategy. If he really does have ambitions for the top job, he might want to think a bit harder about issues like this.


    David Cameron was Prime Minister when he said Trump was stupid and wrong and that a state visit would unite the country against him. I think you are right though, and that Khan and Cameron should not casually insult other countries' heads of state.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 1,188
    edited January 12

    TGOHF said:

    brendan16 said:

    Curious. Theresa spent the first part of her premiership distancing herself from Cameron and his wishy-washy, metropolitan ways; now she's courting the liberal green vote and copying his 'hug a husky'. What's going on? Has she realized that the BlueKip vote is both unreliable and a political dead end and that Jezza is creeping up on the centre ground behind her back? It's conceivable that she's been taking advice from George Osborne.

    Maybe she is just a bit plastic and like a plastic bag just blows in which ever direction the wind is blowing next week. Perhaps issues like rising youth crime and knife crime, the NHS, housing and social care are a bit too difficultl
    And being cynical is easy. Gove is the driving force and things will change, they have to and do not underestimate how much the young are demanding it. I can see it from my children and grand children
    Trouble with the Tories is they don't seem to really care that much about the environment. It all seems to be done for publicity purposes - e.g Dave hugging huskies one moment, talking about 'green crap' the next.
    Too many of their MPs seem to be climate change sceptics, although the government generally thankfully isn't.
    Being a climate change sceptic does not in any way stop one caring about the environment. Just look at the man who founded Greenpeace.
    Being a climate change sceptic makes it rather pointless to care about the environment.
    Bollocks.

    Sceptics are following the science not the religion.

    Bjorn Lomberg cares more about the environment than Al Gore.
    Most of those who call themselves climate change sceptics are nothing of the sort. Refusing to listen to evidence is not scepticism; it is denial. They are deniers.
    As TGOHF said. Bollocks. It is morons like you blindly following your religion without anything but the most superficial understanding of the principles who give science a bad name.
    No, it is you people who are the religious nutcases. There is not one national or international scientific organisation in the world that is not in agreement with the consensus that AGW is a real and serious threat. Not one.

    Edit: Perhaps I can refer you to our very own Royal Society: Climate change: evidence and causes
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 3,042
    Scott_P said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re those celebrating Khan's tweet about Trump getting the message from Londoners...

    @BorisJohnson: The US is the biggest single investor in the UK - yet Khan & Corbyn seem determined to put this crucial relationship at risk. We will not allow US-UK relations to be endangered by some puffed up pompous popinjay in City Hall.
    I long for the days when the US president wouldn't give a fig what the likes or Khan or Corbyn thought, if he even knew who they were.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 4,234



    Most of those who call themselves climate change sceptics are nothing of the sort. Refusing to listen to evidence is not scepticism; it is denial. They are deniers.

    Nope. Scepticism is fundamental to science, and the evidence you think you are listening to is the output of computer models which might be right, who knows?, but aren't enough evidence to hang a dog on.

    What has happened is this:enough scientists in senior enough positions have decided (perhaps correctly) that AGW is a thing, and can be tacled by human action. They need to persuade world leaders - people of the intellectual stature of, say, Donald Trump - that this is the case. They know that if you stated the position accurately to the average world leader, with appropriate caveats about lack of certainty, they would get nowhere. So they have constructed a cartoon, pretendy version of science which is enough to fool world leaders, and clearly you, as the only way to get things done. One sees their motivation, but I do worry what people like you would say if 97% of ther geneticists decided that it was necessary to abolish people of such and such a skin colour on grounds of eugenics.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 16,536

    TGOHF said:

    brendan16 said:

    Curious. Theresa spent the first part of her premiership distancing herself from Cameron and his wishy-washy, metropolitan ways; now she's courting the liberal green vote and copying his 'hug a husky'. What's going on? Has she realized that the BlueKip vote is both unreliable and a political dead end and that Jezza is creeping up on the centre ground behind her back? It's conceivable that she's been taking advice from George Osborne.

    Maybe she is just a bit plastic and like a plastic bag just blows in which ever direction the wind is blowing next week. Perhaps issues like rising youth crime and knife crime, the NHS, housing and social care are a bit too difficultl
    And being cynical is easy. Gove is the driving force and things will change, they have to and do not underestimate how much the young are demanding it. I can see it from my children and grand children
    Trouble with the Tories is they don't seem to really care that much about the environment. It all seems to be done for publicity purposes - e.g Dave hugging huskies one moment, talking about 'green crap' the next.
    Too many of their MPs seem to be climate change sceptics, although the government generally thankfully isn't.
    Being a climate change sceptic does not in any way stop one caring about the environment. Just look at the man who founded Greenpeace.
    Being a climate change sceptic makes it rather pointless to care about the environment.
    Bollocks.

    Sceptics are following the science not the religion.

    Bjorn Lomberg cares more about the environment than Al Gore.
    Most of those who call themselves climate change sceptics are nothing of the sort. Refusing to listen to evidence is not scepticism; it is denial. They are deniers.
    As TGOHF said. Bollocks. It is morons like you blindly following your religion without anything but the most superficial understanding of the principles who give science a bad name.
    No, it is you people who are the religious nutcases. There is not one national or international scientific organisation in the world that is not in agreement with the consensus that AGW is a real and serious threat. Not one.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bjørn_Lomborg

    I’d trust him to manage the planet over Al Gore - wouldn’t you ?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,692

    TGOHF said:

    brendan16 said:

    Curious. Theresa spent the first part of her premiership distancing herself from Cameron and his wishy-washy, metropolitan ways; now she's courting the liberal green vote and copying his 'hug a husky'. What's going on? Has she realized that the BlueKip vote is both unreliable and a political dead end and that Jezza is creeping up on the centre ground behind her back? It's conceivable that she's been taking advice from George Osborne.

    Maybe she is just a bit plastic and like a plastic bag just blows in which ever direction the wind is blowing next week. Perhaps issues like rising youth crime and knife crime, the NHS, housing and social care are a bit too difficultl
    And being cynical is easy. Gove is the driving force and things will change, they have to and do not underestimate how much the young are demanding it. I can see it from my children and grand children
    Trouble with the Tories is they don't seem to really care that much about the environment. It all seems to be done for publicity purposes - e.g Dave hugging huskies one moment, talking about 'green crap' the next.
    Too many of their MPs seem to be climate change sceptics, although the government generally thankfully isn't.
    Being a climate change sceptic does not in any way stop one caring about the environment. Just look at the man who founded Greenpeace.
    Being a climate change sceptic makes it rather pointless to care about the environment.
    Bollocks.

    Sceptics are following the science not the religion.

    Bjorn Lomberg cares more about the environment than Al Gore.
    Climate-change sceptics who are climate scientists are a bit thin on the ground though.
    With a couple of rare notable exceptions, climate scientists didn't exist as a group 40 years ago. They have carved themselves out a niche on the basis of the AGW hypothesis but all of those who originally started it were from other disciplines - geology, physics and chemistry. Anyone who is trained as a climate scientist today is trained on the basis of the reality of AGW. They have to be as it underpins the whole existence of the subject.

    Funnily enough those few original climate scientists (primarily meteorologists) who were around before AGW did not buy into it. The founder of the CRU, Hubert Lamb remained a sceptic to the end.
This discussion has been closed.