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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Marf on TMay’s big idea – the war on plastic waste

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Comments

  • TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    brendan16 said:

    Curious. Theresa spent the first part of her premiership distancing herself from Cameron and his wishy-washy, metropolitan ways; now she's courting the liberal green vote and copying his 'hug a husky'. What's going on? Has she realized that the BlueKip vote is both unreliable and a political dead end and that Jezza is creeping up on the centre ground behind her back? It's conceivable that she's been taking advice from George Osborne.

    Maybe she is just a bit plastic and like a plastic bag just blows in which ever direction the wind is blowing next week. Perhaps issues like rising youth crime and knife crime, the NHS, housing and social care are a bit too difficultl
    And being cynical is easy. Gove is the driving force and things will change, they have to and do not underestimate how much the young are demanding it. I can see it from my children and grand children
    Trouble with the Tories is they don't seem to really care that much about the environment. It all seems to be done for publicity purposes - e.g Dave hugging huskies one moment, talking about 'green crap' the next.
    Too many of their MPs seem to be climate change sceptics, although the government generally thankfully isn't.
    Being a climate change sceptic does not in any way stop one caring about the environment. Just look at the man who founded Greenpeace.
    Being a climate change sceptic makes it rather pointless to care about the environment.
    Bollocks.

    Sceptics are following the science not the religion.

    Bjorn Lomberg cares more about the environment than Al Gore.
    Most of those who call themselves climate change sceptics are nothing of the sort. Refusing to listen to evidence is not scepticism; it is denial. They are deniers.
    As TGOHF said. Bollocks. It is morons like you blindly following your religion without anything but the most superficial understanding of the principles who give science a bad name.
    No, it is you people who are the religious nutcases. There is not one national or international scientific organisation in the world that is not in agreement with the consensus that AGW is a real and serious threat. Not one.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bjørn_Lomborg

    I’d trust him to manage the planet over Al Gore - wouldn’t you ?
    I'd trust whoever listens to and acts on the advice of our scientific organisations.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 13,417
    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    brendan16 said:

    Curious. Theresa spent the first part of her premiership distancing herself from Cameron and his wishy-washy, metropolitan ways; now she's courting the liberal green vote and copying his 'hug a husky'. What's going on? Has she realized that the BlueKip vote is both unreliable and a political dead end and that Jezza is creeping up on the centre ground behind her back? It's conceivable that she's been taking advice from George Osborne.

    Maybe she is just a bit plastic and like a plastic bag just blows in which ever direction the wind is blowing next week. Perhaps issues like rising youth crime and knife crime, the NHS, housing and social care are a bit too difficultl
    And being cynical is easy. Gove is the driving force and things will change, they have to and do not underestimate how much the young are demanding it. I can see it from my children and grand children
    Trouble with the Tories is they don't seem to really care that much about the environment. It all seems to be done for publicity purposes - e.g Dave hugging huskies one moment, talking about 'green crap' the next.
    Too many of their MPs seem to be climate change sceptics, although the government generally thankfully isn't.
    Being a climate change sceptic does not in any way stop one caring about the environment. Just look at the man who founded Greenpeace.
    Being a climate change sceptic makes it rather pointless to care about the environment.
    Bollocks.

    Sceptics are following the science not the religion.

    Bjorn Lomberg cares more about the environment than Al Gore.
    Most of those who call themselves climate change sceptics are nothing of the sort. Refusing to listen to evidence is not scepticism; it is denial. They are deniers.
    As TGOHF said. Bollocks. It is morons like you blindly following your religion without anything but the most superficial understanding of the principles who give science a bad name.
    No, it is you people who are the religious nutcases. There is not one national or international scientific organisation in the world that is not in agreement with the consensus that AGW is a real and serious threat. Not one.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bjørn_Lomborg

    I’d trust him to manage the planet over Al Gore - wouldn’t you ?
    Not the most scientifically qualified person...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 25,664
    Tying themselves in PC knots...

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/trans-women-should-be-considered-for-allfemale-shortlists-labour-shadow-equalities-minister-dawn-a3738146.html

    Rather than having all-women or all-women including trans lists, here is a radical thought, just have open, free and fair selection process open to all....
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 2,581
    TGOHF said:


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bjørn_Lomborg

    I’d trust him to manage the planet over Al Gore - wouldn’t you ?

    Lomborg summarized his position on climate change: "Global warming is real – it is man-made and it is an important problem. But it is not the end of the world."[34]

    So - not someone who denies AGW then.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,116

    Cyclefree said:

    Re those celebrating Khan's tweet about Trump getting the message from Londoners...

    I am in two minds about this. I do not like Trump at all.

    But celebrating that the leader of a very major world power does not think it worth his while coming, especially given the other countries he has visited, does rather highlight our irrelevance.

    France managed to offer him a welcome - and I doubt that either Macron or the Parisians are any more fond of Trump than Khan and Londoners. I am quite certain that France is using that visit to position itself as the US's special friend in Europe.

    Khan is in danger of celebrating something which emphasises our diminished status in the world. A short-term tactical victory at the expense of a long-term strategy. If he really does have ambitions for the top job, he might want to think a bit harder about issues like this.


    David Cameron was Prime Minister when he said Trump was stupid and wrong and that a state visit would unite the country against him. I think you are right though, and that Khan and Cameron should not casually insult other countries' heads of state.
    It's the lack of strategic thinking which annoys me.

    France has been quite open about seeing Britain's departure from the EU as giving it an opportunity to position itself as the US's best friend in the EU.

    Those who oppose Brexit - like Khan - should be seeking to keep Britain relevant not celebrating its irrelevance. On the Leaver side people like Johnson, while they are right that the US is a big investor in Britain, seem not to have wondered whether a part, possibly the major part, of that investment might not be linked to our membership of the EU and seem also not to have considered how Britain should position itself vis-a-vis countries like the US (and others) when it is not an EU member.

    Furthermore Boris's point about Khan should have been made without the popinjay comment. Vaguely amusing and alliterative it might be. But the serious point would have come across much better in sober language without the insult.

    Honestly, this stuff is not hard. If I - Housewife, 49 from Barrow (as Victoria Wood might have put it) - can think like this, surely there is someone in the FCO or anywhere in government or the civil service or, indeed, amongst Khan's advisors who can look beyond the end of. their noses?
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 1,928

    TGOHF said:

    brendan16 said:

    Curious. Theresa spent the first part of her premiership distancing herself from Cameron and his wishy-washy, metropolitan ways; now she's courting the liberal green vote and copying his 'hug a husky'. What's going on? Has she realized that the BlueKip vote is both unreliable and a political dead end and that Jezza is creeping up on the centre ground behind her back? It's conceivable that she's been taking advice from George Osborne.

    And being cynical is easy. Gove is the driving force and things will change, they have to and do not underestimate how much the young are demanding it. I can see it from my children and grand children
    Trouble with the Tories is they don't seem to really care that much about the environment. It all seems to be done for publicity purposes - e.g Dave hugging huskies one moment, talking about 'green crap' the next.
    Too many of their MPs seem to be climate change sceptics, although the government generally thankfully isn't.
    Being a climate change sceptic does not in any way stop one caring about the environment. Just look at the man who founded Greenpeace.
    Being a climate change sceptic makes it rather pointless to care about the environment.
    Bollocks.

    Sceptics are following the science not the religion.

    Bjorn Lomberg cares more about the environment than Al Gore.
    Climate-change sceptics who are climate scientists are a bit thin on the ground though.
    With a couple of rare notable exceptions, climate scientists didn't exist as a group 40 years ago. They have carved themselves out a niche on the basis of the AGW hypothesis but all of those who originally started it were from other disciplines - geology, physics and chemistry. Anyone who is trained as a climate scientist today is trained on the basis of the reality of AGW. They have to be as it underpins the whole existence of the subject.

    Funnily enough those few original climate scientists (primarily meteorologists) who were around before AGW did not buy into it. The founder of the CRU, Hubert Lamb remained a sceptic to the end.
    And the embrace of diesel as a solution to CO2 emissions is a perfect example of how bad and poor science has ended up doing more environmental and health harm than any of the global warming that has so far occurred.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 15,419
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sadiq Khan seems to be rising with trace.

    His tweet that Trump got the message from Londoners will attract notice from the right people.

    25/1 next Lab leader...

    He deserves to be much, much shorter odds than that. My tip for quite some while. He's the only proven vote-winner who could replace Corbyn.
    I'm on him at 50/1

    But difficult to see him jumping away from London mayor job in first term to win a by-election (which would probably have to be a London seat to be realistic). If he goes 1/2 way through 2nd term, as per Boris, then surely there will already be new leader. Or have I missed something?
    It is difficult to see but he is, together with La Thornberry (and Stevie Kinnock IMO), transparently suitable to be next Lab Leader. Given the chaotic state of UK politics atm I am reasonably comfortable with the bet.
    BF punters seem to favour Thornberry at moment.

    But yes Khan is suitable for next leader. Not sure he can bring the cult with him though?
    surely the problem for Khan is timing.


    When is the next leadership election? How long does it take Khan to (1) resolve not to stand or lose the mayoralty; (2) become an MP (3) position for leader?
    He is already positioned for Leader. As for timing - returns to Parliament for 2022 GE, Jezza loses or wins, and he is ready to take over. I would give Jezza a year or two post GE whatever the result before he steps down.
    I'm waiting for the Labour vote to start slipping. If it were to go to the mid-30's whilst the Tories stay above 40%, (with the LibDems upticking some), then there will start to be some interesting discussions within Labour.
  • TGOHF said:

    brendan16 said:



    Maybe she is just a bit plastic and like a plastic bag just blows in which ever direction the wind is blowing next week. Perhaps issues like rising youth crime and knife crime, the NHS, housing and social care are a bit too difficultl

    And being cynical is easy. Gove is the driving force and things will change, they have to and do not underestimate how much the young are demanding it. I can see it from my children and grand children
    Trouble with the Tories is they don't seem to really care that much about the environment. It all seems to be done for publicity purposes - e.g Dave hugging huskies one moment, talking about 'green crap' the next.
    Too many of their MPs seem to be climate change sceptics, although the government generally thankfully isn't.
    Being a climate change sceptic does not in any way stop one caring about the environment. Just look at the man who founded Greenpeace.
    Being a climate change sceptic makes it rather pointless to care about the environment.
    Bollocks.

    Sceptics are following the science not the religion.

    Bjorn Lomberg cares more about the environment than Al Gore.
    Climate-change sceptics who are climate scientists are a bit thin on the ground though.
    With a couple of rare notable exceptions, climate scientists didn't exist as a group 40 years ago. They have carved themselves out a niche on the basis of the AGW hypothesis but all of those who originally started it were from other disciplines - geology, physics and chemistry. Anyone who is trained as a climate scientist today is trained on the basis of the reality of AGW. They have to be as it underpins the whole existence of the subject.

    Funnily enough those few original climate scientists (primarily meteorologists) who were around before AGW did not buy into it. The founder of the CRU, Hubert Lamb remained a sceptic to the end.
    That's a weird thing to say. I could just as well state that archaeologists are trained on the basis of the reality of the Romans, and it would be equally nonsensical.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 1,925
    AGW is real and happening. We have moved on from debate now. The pertinent questions are what are we going to do about it? Though progress has been slow, the policy makers are FINALLY getting round to the fact that something needs to be done and fast. I am hopeful....
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,116
    Green policies at council level often lack any sort of joined up thinking.

    Take my council, for instance: they have stopped collecting green waste from our gardens, unless we pay. So now people have to drive to the recycling centre to deposit their green waste. More air pollution is the result. Ditto with household waste - now collected every fortnight (which is generally fine because the vast majority of waste in my household is recyclable). If, for whatever reason, it is more than will fit into the bins, they won't collect it, even though the lorries are there and they insist that you drive it to the recycling centre.

    So by taking a rigidly jobsworth approach, they have likely increased the number of individual car journeys with all the attendant pollution. Furthermore, there has been a notable increase since the new policy came into effect of fly-tipping and waste being strewn about the streets.

    It would be nice if people could just think through the consequences of their proposals and think about the practical consequences for real people. Sigh.......
  • murali_s said:

    AGW is real and happening. We have moved on from debate now. The pertinent questions are what are we going to do about it? Though progress has been slow, the policy makers are FINALLY getting round to the fact that something needs to be done and fast. I am hopeful....

    One heartening statistic: Germany generated some 33% of its electricity from renewables last year, a feat that would have been thought almost impossible not so many years ago.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,692

    TGOHF said:

    brendan16 said:



    Maybe she is just a bit plastic and like a plastic bag just blows in which ever direction the wind is blowing next week. Perhaps issues like rising youth crime and knife crime, the NHS, housing and social care are a bit too difficultl

    And being cynical is easy. Gove is the driving force and things will change, they have to and do not underestimate how much the young are demanding it. I can see it from my children and grand children
    Trouble with the Tories is they don't seem to really care that much about the environment. It all seems to be done for publicity purposes - e.g Dave hugging huskies one moment, talking about 'green crap' the next.
    Too many of their MPs seem to be climate change sceptics, although the government generally thankfully isn't.
    Being a climate change sceptic does not in any way stop one caring about the environment. Just look at the man who founded Greenpeace.
    Being a climate change sceptic makes it rather pointless to care about the environment.
    Bollocks.

    Sceptics are following the science not the religion.

    Bjorn Lomberg cares more about the environment than Al Gore.
    Climate-change sceptics who are climate scientists are a bit thin on the ground though.
    With a couple of rare notable exceptions, climate scientists didn't exist as a group 40 years ago. They have carved themselves out a niche on the basis of the AGW hypothesis but all of those who originally started it were from other disciplines - geology, physics and chemistry. Anyone who is trained as a climate scientist today is trained on the basis of the reality of AGW. They have to be as it underpins the whole existence of the subject.

    Funnily enough those few original climate scientists (primarily meteorologists) who were around before AGW did not buy into it. The founder of the CRU, Hubert Lamb remained a sceptic to the end.
    That's a weird thing to say. I could just as well state that archaeologists are trained on the basis of the reality of the Romans, and it would be equally nonsensical.
    A comment which shows you understand as little about archaeology as you do about climate science. Your ignorance is truly outstanding.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 4,238
    murali_s said:

    AGW is real and happening. We have moved on from debate now. The pertinent questions are what are we going to do about it? Though progress has been slow, the policy makers are FINALLY getting round to the fact that something needs to be done and fast. I am hopeful....

    You have indeed "moved on from debate"; others are able to extract value from it.

    Just out of interest, let's compare AGW and smoking. Out of proposition A, "smoking cigarettes causes lung cancer" and proposition B, "AGW is real and happening", in your opinion is the evidence for A stronger, or for B stronger, or are they both the same?
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 1,928

    murali_s said:

    AGW is real and happening. We have moved on from debate now. The pertinent questions are what are we going to do about it? Though progress has been slow, the policy makers are FINALLY getting round to the fact that something needs to be done and fast. I am hopeful....

    One heartening statistic: Germany generated some 33% of its electricity from renewables last year, a feat that would have been thought almost impossible not so many years ago.
    German CO2 emissions are rising of course.

    "Germany’s carbon dioxide emissions rose by 4m tonnes to 906m tonnes, an increase of 0.7 per cent, according to a study by Arepo Consult carried out for the opposition Green party."

    https://www.ft.com/content/7f2f199a-0a5f-11e7-97d1-5e720a26771b

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,692
    JonathanD said:

    TGOHF said:

    brendan16 said:

    Curious. Theresa spent the first part of her premiership distancing herself from Cameron and his wishy-washy, metropolitan ways; now she's courting the liberal green vote and copying his 'hug a husky'. What's going on? Has she realized that the BlueKip vote is both unreliable and a political dead end and that Jezza is creeping up on the centre ground behind her back? It's conceivable that she's been taking advice from George Osborne.

    And being cynical is easy. Gove is the driving force and things will change, they have to and do not underestimate how much the young are demanding it. I can see it from my children and grand children
    Trouble with the Tories is they don't seem to really care that much about the environment. It all seems to be done for publicity purposes - e.g Dave hugging huskies one moment, talking about 'green crap' the next.
    Too many of their MPs seem to be climate change sceptics, although the government generally thankfully isn't.
    Being a climate change sceptic does not in any way stop one caring about the environment. Just look at the man who founded Greenpeace.
    Being a climate change sceptic makes it rather pointless to care about the environment.
    Bollocks.

    Sceptics are following the science not the religion.

    Bjorn Lomberg cares more about the environment than Al Gore.
    Climate-change sceptics who are climate scientists are a bit thin on the ground though.
    With a couple of rare notable exceptions, climate scientists didn't exist as a group 40 years ago. They have carved themselves out a niche on the basis of the AGW hypothesis but all of those who originally started it were from other disciplines - geology, physics and chemistry. Anyone who is trained as a climate scientist today is trained on the basis of the reality of AGW. They have to be as it underpins the whole existence of the subject.

    Funnily enough those few original climate scientists (primarily meteorologists) who were around before AGW did not buy into it. The founder of the CRU, Hubert Lamb remained a sceptic to the end.
    And the embrace of diesel as a solution to CO2 emissions is a perfect example of how bad and poor science has ended up doing more environmental and health harm than any of the global warming that has so far occurred.
    As has the destruction of tropical rain forests to grow biofuels.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 12,280
    Scott_P said:
    Surely that's the kind of freedom you get when you're Foreign Secretary?

    If the Foreign Secretary can't speak for the government on foreign relations then who can?
  • Cyclefree said:

    Green policies at council level often lack any sort of joined up thinking.

    Take my council, for instance: they have stopped collecting green waste from our gardens, unless we pay. So now people have to drive to the recycling centre to deposit their green waste. More air pollution is the result. Ditto with household waste - now collected every fortnight (which is generally fine because the vast majority of waste in my household is recyclable). If, for whatever reason, it is more than will fit into the bins, they won't collect it, even though the lorries are there and they insist that you drive it to the recycling centre.

    So by taking a rigidly jobsworth approach, they have likely increased the number of individual car journeys with all the attendant pollution. Furthermore, there has been a notable increase since the new policy came into effect of fly-tipping and waste being strewn about the streets.

    It would be nice if people could just think through the consequences of their proposals and think about the practical consequences for real people. Sigh.......

    Yes, I have been trying to convince my missus that making a special journey to the recycling centre to dispose of used tetra-packs rather than binning them isn't doing the environment any favours. Her heart's in the right place, but...
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 4,401

    Scott_P said:
    Surely that's the kind of freedom you get when you're Foreign Secretary?

    If the Foreign Secretary can't speak for the government on foreign relations then who can?
    That's what you get with Cabinet government rather tha Presidential government.
  • JonathanD said:

    murali_s said:

    AGW is real and happening. We have moved on from debate now. The pertinent questions are what are we going to do about it? Though progress has been slow, the policy makers are FINALLY getting round to the fact that something needs to be done and fast. I am hopeful....

    One heartening statistic: Germany generated some 33% of its electricity from renewables last year, a feat that would have been thought almost impossible not so many years ago.
    German CO2 emissions are rising of course.

    "Germany’s carbon dioxide emissions rose by 4m tonnes to 906m tonnes, an increase of 0.7 per cent, according to a study by Arepo Consult carried out for the opposition Green party."

    https://www.ft.com/content/7f2f199a-0a5f-11e7-97d1-5e720a26771b

    Germany's emissions rose by an insignificant amount in 2016 after falling considerably in the years before that:

    image
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,628
    Cyclefree said:

    Re those celebrating Khan's tweet about Trump getting the message from Londoners...

    I am in two minds about this. I do not like Trump at all.

    But celebrating that the leader of a very major world power does not think it worth his while coming, especially given the other countries he has visited, does rather highlight our irrelevance.

    France managed to offer him a welcome - and I doubt that either Macron or the Parisians are any more fond of Trump than Khan and Londoners. I am quite certain that France is using that visit to position itself as the US's special friend in Europe.

    Khan is in danger of celebrating something which emphasises our diminished status in the world. A short-term tactical victory at the expense of a long-term strategy. If he really does have ambitions for the top job, he might want to think a bit harder about issues like this.

    He knows his audience = bolshy Londoners and Labourites.
  • TGOHF said:

    brendan16 said:



    Maybe she is just a bit plastic and like a plastic bag just blows in which ever direction the wind is blowing next week. Perhaps issues like rising youth crime and knife crime, the NHS, housing and social care are a bit too difficultl

    And being cynical is easy. Gove is the driving force and things will change, they have to and do not underestimate how much the young are demanding it. I can see it from my children and grand children
    Trouble with the Tories is they don't seem to really care that much about the environment. It all seems to be done for publicity purposes - e.g Dave hugging huskies one moment, talking about 'green crap' the next.
    Too many of their MPs seem to be climate change sceptics, although the government generally thankfully isn't.
    Being a climate change sceptic does not in any way stop one caring about the environment. Just look at the man who founded Greenpeace.
    Being a climate change sceptic makes it rather pointless to care about the environment.
    Bollocks.

    Sceptics are following the science not the religion.

    Bjorn Lomberg cares more about the environment than Al Gore.
    Climate-change sceptics who are climate scientists are a bit thin on the ground though.
    With a couple of rare notable exceptions, climate scientists didn't exist as a group 40 years ago. They have carved themselves out a niche on the basis of the AGW hypothesis but all of those who originally started it were from other disciplines - geology, physics and chemistry. Anyone who is trained as a climate scientist today is trained on the basis of the reality of AGW. They have to be as it underpins the whole existence of the subject.

    Funnily enough those few original climate scientists (primarily meteorologists) who were around before AGW did not buy into it. The founder of the CRU, Hubert Lamb remained a sceptic to the end.
    That's a weird thing to say. I could just as well state that archaeologists are trained on the basis of the reality of the Romans, and it would be equally nonsensical.
    A comment which shows you understand as little about archaeology as you do about climate science. Your ignorance is truly outstanding.
    There's a lot of heat and not much light coming from you today, Richard.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 4,401
    edited January 12
    Ishmael_Z said:

    murali_s said:

    AGW is real and happening. We have moved on from debate now. The pertinent questions are what are we going to do about it? Though progress has been slow, the policy makers are FINALLY getting round to the fact that something needs to be done and fast. I am hopeful....

    You have indeed "moved on from debate"; others are able to extract value from it.

    Just out of interest, let's compare AGW and smoking. Out of proposition A, "smoking cigarettes causes lung cancer" and proposition B, "AGW is real and happening", in your opinion is the evidence for A stronger, or for B stronger, or are they both the same?
    There does seem to be global warming. Since temperatures have risen and fallen for many reasons over the millenia, the question is what are the causes of the current change?

    I suggest the causes are many and we can't yet determine the proportions due to each cause.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 12,280

    Scott_P said:
    Surely that's the kind of freedom you get when you're Foreign Secretary?

    If the Foreign Secretary can't speak for the government on foreign relations then who can?
    That's what you get with Cabinet government rather tha Presidential government.
    Indeed, if the Home Secretary spoke up on a Policing issue or the Health Secretary on a Health issue I wouldn't expect Number 10 to be asked whether they're speaking for the government or not. For as long as they're in that Cabinet post they are.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,116
    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re those celebrating Khan's tweet about Trump getting the message from Londoners...

    I am in two minds about this. I do not like Trump at all.

    But celebrating that the leader of a very major world power does not think it worth his while coming, especially given the other countries he has visited, does rather highlight our irrelevance.

    France managed to offer him a welcome - and I doubt that either Macron or the Parisians are any more fond of Trump than Khan and Londoners. I am quite certain that France is using that visit to position itself as the US's special friend in Europe.

    Khan is in danger of celebrating something which emphasises our diminished status in the world. A short-term tactical victory at the expense of a long-term strategy. If he really does have ambitions for the top job, he might want to think a bit harder about issues like this.

    He knows his audience = bolshy Londoners and Labourites.
    Yeah he probably does - but he can't see the wood for the trees. And if he can't then he will never rise above the second or third-rate. (Or shouldn't, in a sane world.)
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 4,401

    Cyclefree said:

    Green policies at council level often lack any sort of joined up thinking.

    Take my council, for instance: they have stopped collecting green waste from our gardens, unless we pay. So now people have to drive to the recycling centre to deposit their green waste. More air pollution is the result. Ditto with household waste - now collected every fortnight (which is generally fine because the vast majority of waste in my household is recyclable). If, for whatever reason, it is more than will fit into the bins, they won't collect it, even though the lorries are there and they insist that you drive it to the recycling centre.

    So by taking a rigidly jobsworth approach, they have likely increased the number of individual car journeys with all the attendant pollution. Furthermore, there has been a notable increase since the new policy came into effect of fly-tipping and waste being strewn about the streets.

    It would be nice if people could just think through the consequences of their proposals and think about the practical consequences for real people. Sigh.......

    Yes, I have been trying to convince my missus that making a special journey to the recycling centre to dispose of used tetra-packs rather than binning them isn't doing the environment any favours. Her heart's in the right place, but...
    Its the same with Electric Vehicles. There may be more damage done from constructing an electric vehicle (compared with an internal combustion vehicle) than is saved in the subsequent mileage.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 4,238

    Ishmael_Z said:

    murali_s said:

    AGW is real and happening. We have moved on from debate now. The pertinent questions are what are we going to do about it? Though progress has been slow, the policy makers are FINALLY getting round to the fact that something needs to be done and fast. I am hopeful....

    You have indeed "moved on from debate"; others are able to extract value from it.

    Just out of interest, let's compare AGW and smoking. Out of proposition A, "smoking cigarettes causes lung cancer" and proposition B, "AGW is real and happening", in your opinion is the evidence for A stronger, or for B stronger, or are they both the same?
    There does seem to be global warming. Since temperatures have risen and fallen for many reasons over the millenia, the question is what are the causes of the current change?

    I suggest the causes are many and we can't yet determine the proportions due to each cause.
    And what we can do about it. Because sadly catastrophes tend to be irreversible, and the argument that we caused it, therefore we can fix it, is a fallacy.
  • Ishmael_Z said:

    murali_s said:

    AGW is real and happening. We have moved on from debate now. The pertinent questions are what are we going to do about it? Though progress has been slow, the policy makers are FINALLY getting round to the fact that something needs to be done and fast. I am hopeful....

    You have indeed "moved on from debate"; others are able to extract value from it.

    Just out of interest, let's compare AGW and smoking. Out of proposition A, "smoking cigarettes causes lung cancer" and proposition B, "AGW is real and happening", in your opinion is the evidence for A stronger, or for B stronger, or are they both the same?
    There does seem to be global warming. Since temperatures have risen and fallen for many reasons over the millenia, the question is what are the causes of the current change?

    I suggest the causes are many and we can't yet determine the proportions due to each cause.
    The scientists (the same ones that determined that temperatures have risen and fallen over the millennia) say otherwise. They are overwhelmingly of the opinion that the rapid rise in the global temperature over the last few decades is almost certainly primarily due to human emissions of greenhouse gases.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 10,622
    Of all Boris's qualities, I thinks it's his unflinching consistency that's most admirable.

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,692


    There's a lot of heat and not much light coming from you today, Richard.

    I long ago realised that giving you anything approaching facts was a waste of time. You are a completely closed mind even when presented with real numbers. You prefer wild speculation and religious fervour.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,628
    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re those celebrating Khan's tweet about Trump getting the message from Londoners...

    I am in two minds about this. I do not like Trump at all.

    But celebrating that the leader of a very major world power does not think it worth his while coming, especially given the other countries he has visited, does rather highlight our irrelevance.

    France managed to offer him a welcome - and I doubt that either Macron or the Parisians are any more fond of Trump than Khan and Londoners. I am quite certain that France is using that visit to position itself as the US's special friend in Europe.

    Khan is in danger of celebrating something which emphasises our diminished status in the world. A short-term tactical victory at the expense of a long-term strategy. If he really does have ambitions for the top job, he might want to think a bit harder about issues like this.

    He knows his audience = bolshy Londoners and Labourites.
    Yeah he probably does - but he can't see the wood for the trees. And if he can't then he will never rise above the second or third-rate. (Or shouldn't, in a sane world.)
    May I refer my learned friend to Exhibit A: Theresa May and Exhibit B: Donald Trump.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,692

    Ishmael_Z said:

    murali_s said:

    AGW is real and happening. We have moved on from debate now. The pertinent questions are what are we going to do about it? Though progress has been slow, the policy makers are FINALLY getting round to the fact that something needs to be done and fast. I am hopeful....

    You have indeed "moved on from debate"; others are able to extract value from it.

    Just out of interest, let's compare AGW and smoking. Out of proposition A, "smoking cigarettes causes lung cancer" and proposition B, "AGW is real and happening", in your opinion is the evidence for A stronger, or for B stronger, or are they both the same?
    There does seem to be global warming. Since temperatures have risen and fallen for many reasons over the millenia, the question is what are the causes of the current change?

    I suggest the causes are many and we can't yet determine the proportions due to each cause.
    Yep. That is the sensible, science based answer rather than the religious belief.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 352

    Scott_P said:
    Surely that's the kind of freedom you get when you're Foreign Secretary?

    If the Foreign Secretary can't speak for the government on foreign relations then who can?
    Seems a perfectly reasonable thing to say.

    The Mayor has major agreements in place for example with Chinese and Malaysian firms to fund huge infrastructure schemes in the capital - neither nation is exactly a paragon of free speech, democracy and human rights compared to the US. China actively persecutes it's Muslim minority - and we get outraged about temporary tourist visa bans, They have the cash and we need the cash

    We didn't make too much fuss when the Chinese President got a state visit or the Saudi royals. Is Trump really worse than them?

    Beggars can't be choosers - you don't have to like major world leaders but the thought the US President can't or won't come to our capital city is ridiculous.

  • There's a lot of heat and not much light coming from you today, Richard.

    I long ago realised that giving you anything approaching facts was a waste of time. You are a completely closed mind even when presented with real numbers. You prefer wild speculation and religious fervour.
    You haven't presented anything approaching facts. Or numbers. And no, I prefer to listen to people who know what they're talking about rather than internet bigmouths:

    Climate change: evidence and causes
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,555
    Cyclefree said:

    Re those celebrating Khan's tweet about Trump getting the message from Londoners...

    I am in two minds about this. I do not like Trump at all.

    But celebrating that the leader of a very major world power does not think it worth his while coming, especially given the other countries he has visited, does rather highlight our irrelevance.

    France managed to offer him a welcome - and I doubt that either Macron or the Parisians are any more fond of Trump than Khan and Londoners. I am quite certain that France is using that visit to position itself as the US's special friend in Europe.

    Khan is in danger of celebrating something which emphasises our diminished status in the world. A short-term tactical victory at the expense of a long-term strategy. If he really does have ambitions for the top job, he might want to think a bit harder about issues like this.

    Knowing how volatile Trump is and his mood swings if we are not careful we may see him tweeting something like 'had a great trip to Paris last summer welcomed by the President of France, our oldest ally, not one protestor, meanwhile Great Britain, against whom we had to fight a war to gain independence, refuses to grant me a proper welcome, SAD'
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,116
    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re those celebrating Khan's tweet about Trump getting the message from Londoners...

    I am in two minds about this. I do not like Trump at all.

    But celebrating that the leader of a very major world power does not think it worth his while coming, especially given the other countries he has visited, does rather highlight our irrelevance.

    France managed to offer him a welcome - and I doubt that either Macron or the Parisians are any more fond of Trump than Khan and Londoners. I am quite certain that France is using that visit to position itself as the US's special friend in Europe.

    Khan is in danger of celebrating something which emphasises our diminished status in the world. A short-term tactical victory at the expense of a long-term strategy. If he really does have ambitions for the top job, he might want to think a bit harder about issues like this.

    He knows his audience = bolshy Londoners and Labourites.
    Yeah he probably does - but he can't see the wood for the trees. And if he can't then he will never rise above the second or third-rate. (Or shouldn't, in a sane world.)
    May I refer my learned friend to Exhibit A: Theresa May and Exhibit B: Donald Trump.
    And may I refer you to my final phrase - "Or shouldn't, in a sane world."

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 12,280

    Cyclefree said:

    Green policies at council level often lack any sort of joined up thinking.

    Take my council, for instance: they have stopped collecting green waste from our gardens, unless we pay. So now people have to drive to the recycling centre to deposit their green waste. More air pollution is the result. Ditto with household waste - now collected every fortnight (which is generally fine because the vast majority of waste in my household is recyclable). If, for whatever reason, it is more than will fit into the bins, they won't collect it, even though the lorries are there and they insist that you drive it to the recycling centre.

    So by taking a rigidly jobsworth approach, they have likely increased the number of individual car journeys with all the attendant pollution. Furthermore, there has been a notable increase since the new policy came into effect of fly-tipping and waste being strewn about the streets.

    It would be nice if people could just think through the consequences of their proposals and think about the practical consequences for real people. Sigh.......

    Yes, I have been trying to convince my missus that making a special journey to the recycling centre to dispose of used tetra-packs rather than binning them isn't doing the environment any favours. Her heart's in the right place, but...
    Its the same with Electric Vehicles. There may be more damage done from constructing an electric vehicle (compared with an internal combustion vehicle) than is saved in the subsequent mileage.
    I've not seen any evidence for that. Yes there is more damage done constructing the battery but nothing like the damage done in subsequent mileage.

    But what's more is that Electric Vehicles do a good job in displacing the damage away from where we live and breath and into distant places like the Chinese mines that generate the Rare Earth Metals that the vehicles rely upon.

    Even without considering any AGW factors electric vehicles will make the air we breath much fresher and with much less damaging particulates and smog etc - surely that alone is worth doing?
  • Cyclefree said:

    Green policies at council level often lack any sort of joined up thinking.

    Take my council, for instance: they have stopped collecting green waste from our gardens, unless we pay. So now people have to drive to the recycling centre to deposit their green waste. More air pollution is the result. Ditto with household waste - now collected every fortnight (which is generally fine because the vast majority of waste in my household is recyclable). If, for whatever reason, it is more than will fit into the bins, they won't collect it, even though the lorries are there and they insist that you drive it to the recycling centre.

    So by taking a rigidly jobsworth approach, they have likely increased the number of individual car journeys with all the attendant pollution. Furthermore, there has been a notable increase since the new policy came into effect of fly-tipping and waste being strewn about the streets.

    It would be nice if people could just think through the consequences of their proposals and think about the practical consequences for real people. Sigh.......

    Yes, I have been trying to convince my missus that making a special journey to the recycling centre to dispose of used tetra-packs rather than binning them isn't doing the environment any favours. Her heart's in the right place, but...
    Its the same with Electric Vehicles. There may be more damage done from constructing an electric vehicle (compared with an internal combustion vehicle) than is saved in the subsequent mileage.
    I don't think it is the same with electric vehicles. AFAIK, any additional environmental stress resulting from the construction and disposal of an electric car over an IC vehicle is easily outweighed by the lack of emissions during its service life. I can be convinced otherwise by figures though :-)
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,116
    Another green change we might usefully make is having more milkmen.

    I've been using one for years. Fresh milk every morning. In bottles. Which get returned and reused.

    And no plastic to throw away. Plus they use electric vehicles.

    In fact, just like how it used to be when I was growing up.....
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 10,622
    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re those celebrating Khan's tweet about Trump getting the message from Londoners...

    I am in two minds about this. I do not like Trump at all.

    But celebrating that the leader of a very major world power does not think it worth his while coming, especially given the other countries he has visited, does rather highlight our irrelevance.

    France managed to offer him a welcome - and I doubt that either Macron or the Parisians are any more fond of Trump than Khan and Londoners. I am quite certain that France is using that visit to position itself as the US's special friend in Europe.

    Khan is in danger of celebrating something which emphasises our diminished status in the world. A short-term tactical victory at the expense of a long-term strategy. If he really does have ambitions for the top job, he might want to think a bit harder about issues like this.

    Knowing how volatile Trump is and his mood swings if we are not careful we may see him tweeting something like 'had a great trip to Paris last summer welcomed by the President of France, our oldest ally, not one protestor, meanwhile Great Britain, against whom we had to fight a war to gain independence, refuses to grant me a proper welcome, SAD'
    Er, he's not coming.
    How do you properly welcome someone who (of their own volition) calls off a visit?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 42,098
    Electric vehicles are essentially as clean as the constituent power makeup of the country overall, no :) ?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 42,098
    Cyclefree said:

    Another green change we might usefully make is having more milkmen.

    I've been using one for years. Fresh milk every morning. In bottles. Which get returned and reused.

    And no plastic to throw away. Plus they use electric vehicles.

    In fact, just like how it used to be when I was growing up.....

    As someone who works in a job related to the glass industry, I approve of your life choice here :)
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 4,238

    Ishmael_Z said:

    murali_s said:

    AGW is real and happening. We have moved on from debate now. The pertinent questions are what are we going to do about it? Though progress has been slow, the policy makers are FINALLY getting round to the fact that something needs to be done and fast. I am hopeful....

    You have indeed "moved on from debate"; others are able to extract value from it.

    Just out of interest, let's compare AGW and smoking. Out of proposition A, "smoking cigarettes causes lung cancer" and proposition B, "AGW is real and happening", in your opinion is the evidence for A stronger, or for B stronger, or are they both the same?
    There does seem to be global warming. Since temperatures have risen and fallen for many reasons over the millenia, the question is what are the causes of the current change?

    I suggest the causes are many and we can't yet determine the proportions due to each cause.
    The scientists (the same ones that determined that temperatures have risen and fallen over the millennia) say otherwise. They are overwhelmingly of the opinion that the rapid rise in the global temperature over the last few decades is almost certainly primarily due to human emissions of greenhouse gases.
    No, the fact that temperatures have risen and fallen over the millennia has been established for long enough that the scientists who established it are now dead. The scientists now making claims about the climate are alive, therefore not the same scientists. And that really is the perfect giveaway about your mindset: you think that Big Science is a monolithic entity, peopled (I suspect) by identikit scientists in white coats, with comically high foreheads, like in the old Tefal ads.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 1,925
    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re those celebrating Khan's tweet about Trump getting the message from Londoners...

    I am in two minds about this. I do not like Trump at all.

    But celebrating that the leader of a very major world power does not think it worth his while coming, especially given the other countries he has visited, does rather highlight our irrelevance.

    France managed to offer him a welcome - and I doubt that either Macron or the Parisians are any more fond of Trump than Khan and Londoners. I am quite certain that France is using that visit to position itself as the US's special friend in Europe.

    Khan is in danger of celebrating something which emphasises our diminished status in the world. A short-term tactical victory at the expense of a long-term strategy. If he really does have ambitions for the top job, he might want to think a bit harder about issues like this.

    Knowing how volatile Trump is and his mood swings if we are not careful we may see him tweeting something like 'had a great trip to Paris last summer welcomed by the President of France, our oldest ally, not one protestor, meanwhile Great Britain, against whom we had to fight a war to gain independence, refuses to grant me a proper welcome, SAD'
    That is a reflection of Trump not the USA. The bigotted white suprematist is not welcome in London.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 61,065
    edited January 12
    Trump's gonna go all Michael Douglas in Falling Down if the Obamas get invited to Prince Harry's wedding and he isn't.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,555

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re those celebrating Khan's tweet about Trump getting the message from Londoners...

    I am in two minds about this. I do not like Trump at all.

    But celebrating that the leader of a very major world power does not think it worth his while coming, especially given the other countries he has visited, does rather highlight our irrelevance.

    France managed to offer him a welcome - and I doubt that either Macron or the Parisians are any more fond of Trump than Khan and Londoners. I am quite certain that France is using that visit to position itself as the US's special friend in Europe.

    Khan is in danger of celebrating something which emphasises our diminished status in the world. A short-term tactical victory at the expense of a long-term strategy. If he really does have ambitions for the top job, he might want to think a bit harder about issues like this.

    Knowing how volatile Trump is and his mood swings if we are not careful we may see him tweeting something like 'had a great trip to Paris last summer welcomed by the President of France, our oldest ally, not one protestor, meanwhile Great Britain, against whom we had to fight a war to gain independence, refuses to grant me a proper welcome, SAD'
    Er, he's not coming.
    How do you properly welcome someone who (of their own volition) calls off a visit?
    As Trump has previously said he is not coming to London until he gets a good enough welcome
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 5,973
    Good morning all.

    Enjoyed the discussion this morning. I'm all for us doing our bit on the environment; the amount of packaging we have to recycle is ridiculous (for example, if you order the box of 84 dog food pouches, what you actually get is 21 polythene bags with 4 sachets in each).

    However, my inner nerd compels me to point out that the EU (including the UK) is responsible for 10% of CO2 emissions compared to China's 29%. The UK is responsible for around 1%.

    Similarly, as pointed out downthread, 90% of plastic waste is dumped into the ocean from a small number of Asian and African rivers.

    Still, 'think global, act local' still has value. I treasure a beautiful, litter-free, clean Britain on its own merits.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,116
    murali_s said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re those celebrating Khan's tweet about Trump getting the message from Londoners...

    I am in two minds about this. I do not like Trump at all.

    But celebrating that the leader of a very major world power does not think it worth his while coming, especially given the other countries he has visited, does rather highlight our irrelevance.

    France managed to offer him a welcome - and I doubt that either Macron or the Parisians are any more fond of Trump than Khan and Londoners. I am quite certain that France is using that visit to position itself as the US's special friend in Europe.

    Khan is in danger of celebrating something which emphasises our diminished status in the world. A short-term tactical victory at the expense of a long-term strategy. If he really does have ambitions for the top job, he might want to think a bit harder about issues like this.

    Knowing how volatile Trump is and his mood swings if we are not careful we may see him tweeting something like 'had a great trip to Paris last summer welcomed by the President of France, our oldest ally, not one protestor, meanwhile Great Britain, against whom we had to fight a war to gain independence, refuses to grant me a proper welcome, SAD'
    That is a reflection of Trump not the USA. The bigotted white suprematist is not welcome in London.
    But is apparently welcome in Paris.

    Now, think about that for a moment..... Britain needs friends. Do you think France is not going to use what advantages it can get from that visit? Meanwhile we can earn our living tweeting about white supremacists, I suppose.....
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 1,222
    Cyclefree said:

    Another green change we might usefully make is having more milkmen.

    I've been using one for years. Fresh milk every morning. In bottles. Which get returned and reused.

    And no plastic to throw away. Plus they use electric vehicles.

    In fact, just like how it used to be when I was growing up.....

    Horse and cart in my day, and a side helping of fertiliser for the roses as well.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,890

    If the Foreign Secretary can't speak for the government on foreign relations then who can?

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,555
    murali_s said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re those celebrating Khan's tweet about Trump getting the message from Londoners...

    I am in two minds about this. I do not like Trump at all.

    But celebrating that the leader of a very major world power does not think it worth his while coming, especially given the other countries he has visited, does rather highlight our irrelevance.

    France managed to offer him a welcome - and I doubt that either Macron or the Parisians are any more fond of Trump than Khan and Londoners. I am quite certain that France is using that visit to position itself as the US's special friend in Europe.

    Khan is in danger of celebrating something which emphasises our diminished status in the world. A short-term tactical victory at the expense of a long-term strategy. If he really does have ambitions for the top job, he might want to think a bit harder about issues like this.

    Knowing how volatile Trump is and his mood swings if we are not careful we may see him tweeting something like 'had a great trip to Paris last summer welcomed by the President of France, our oldest ally, not one protestor, meanwhile Great Britain, against whom we had to fight a war to gain independence, refuses to grant me a proper welcome, SAD'
    That is a reflection of Trump not the USA. The bigotted white suprematist is not welcome in London.
    Having pissed off the EU by voting for Brexit and now pissed off POTUS by refusing to confirm a state visit we seem to have gone from the Atlantic bridge to the Atlantic drawbridge in the space of 2 years!
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,890
    @elashton: Politics 2018, part two. Does the prime minister regard the mayor of London as a pompous popinjay? Spokesman: “Look I’m not going to get into commenting on a tweet I haven’t seen yet.”
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,116

    Trump's gonna all Michael Douglas in Falling Down if the Obamas get invited to Prince Harry's wedding and he isn't.


    The simple way to deal with that is for them to say that this a family affair and no politicians will be invited. It is not a state occasion after all (and Harry is not likely to be King), so no reason why politicians should expect an invitation.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 3,249



    With a couple of rare notable exceptions, climate scientists didn't exist as a group 40 years ago. They have carved themselves out a niche on the basis of the AGW hypothesis but all of those who originally started it were from other disciplines - geology, physics and chemistry. Anyone who is trained as a climate scientist today is trained on the basis of the reality of AGW. They have to be as it underpins the whole existence of the subject.

    Funnily enough those few original climate scientists (primarily meteorologists) who were around before AGW did not buy into it. The founder of the CRU, Hubert Lamb remained a sceptic to the end.

    His Wikipedia article says:
    “It is to be noted here that there is no necessary contradiction between forecast expectations of (a) some renewed (or continuation of) slight cooling of world climate for some years to come, e.g. from volcanic or solar activity variations; (b) an abrupt warming due to the effect of increasing carbon dioxide, lasting some centuries until fossil fuels are exhausted and a while thereafter; and this followed in turn by (c) a glaciation lasting (like the previous ones) for many thousands of years.”

    That to me says he accepts AGW.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,555
    Cyclefree said:

    murali_s said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re those celebrating Khan's tweet about Trump getting the message from Londoners...

    I am in two minds about this. I do not like Trump at all.

    But celebrating that the leader of a very major world power does not think it worth his while coming, especially given the other countries he has visited, does rather highlight our irrelevance.

    France managed to offer him a welcome - and I doubt that either Macron or the Parisians are any more fond of Trump than Khan and Londoners. I am quite certain that France is using that visit to position itself as the US's special friend in Europe.

    Khan is in danger of celebrating something which emphasises our diminished status in the world. A short-term tactical victory at the expense of a long-term strategy. If he really does have ambitions for the top job, he might want to think a bit harder about issues like this.

    Knowing how volatile Trump is and his mood swings if we are not careful we may see him tweeting something like 'had a great trip to Paris last summer welcomed by the President of France, our oldest ally, not one protestor, meanwhile Great Britain, against whom we had to fight a war to gain independence, refuses to grant me a proper welcome, SAD'
    That is a reflection of Trump not the USA. The bigotted white suprematist is not welcome in London.
    But is apparently welcome in Paris.

    Now, think about that for a moment..... Britain needs friends. Do you think France is not going to use what advantages it can get from that visit? Meanwhile we can earn our living tweeting about white supremacists, I suppose.....
    Macron certainly played a blinder on Trump last year, making clear he disagreed with him on many issues first then rolling out the red carpet for him soon after, the exact opposite of May's strategy
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,116
    geoffw said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Another green change we might usefully make is having more milkmen.

    I've been using one for years. Fresh milk every morning. In bottles. Which get returned and reused.

    And no plastic to throw away. Plus they use electric vehicles.

    In fact, just like how it used to be when I was growing up.....

    Horse and cart in my day, and a side helping of fertiliser for the roses as well.
    I remember the rag and bone man.......

    Horse manure will burn the roots of roses. You need to let it rot down first.....
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 4,130
    Mr Tyndall,

    "I long ago realised that giving you anything approaching facts was a waste of time."

    You have to understand that some people don't understand that science is about scepticism. You may as well discuss relativity with a slug. Scientists themselves have biases, the difficult part is acknowledging it.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 1,222
    I'm getting lots of blank comments.
    Is there something going on?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 15,528

    Cyclefree said:

    Re those celebrating Khan's tweet about Trump getting the message from Londoners...

    I am in two minds about this. I do not like Trump at all.

    But celebrating that the leader of a very major world power does not think it worth his while coming, especially given the other countries he has visited, does rather highlight our irrelevance.

    France managed to offer him a welcome - and I doubt that either Macron or the Parisians are any more fond of Trump than Khan and Londoners. I am quite certain that France is using that visit to position itself as the US's special friend in Europe.

    Khan is in danger of celebrating something which emphasises our diminished status in the world. A short-term tactical victory at the expense of a long-term strategy. If he really does have ambitions for the top job, he might want to think a bit harder about issues like this.


    David Cameron was Prime Minister when he said Trump was stupid and wrong and that a state visit would unite the country against him. I think you are right though, and that Khan and Cameron should not casually insult other countries' heads of state.
    If Cameron was PM then he would have been talking about candidate Trump rather than President Trump, which is a big difference. Ms @Cyclefree is right (as she usually is) that he is the Head of State of one of our closest allies, and that that special relationship should transcend daily politics and the personalities of the incumbents at any given time.

    We should welcome any US President to London with open arms as a key ally in the world, even if the current President is an idiot.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 943

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sadiq Khan seems to be rising with trace.

    His tweet that Trump got the message from Londoners will attract notice from the right people.

    25/1 next Lab leader...

    He deserves to be much, much shorter odds than that. My tip for quite some while. He's the only proven vote-winner who could replace Corbyn.
    I'm on him at 50/1

    But difficult to see him jumping away from London mayor job in first term to win a by-election (which would probably have to be a London seat to be realistic). If he goes 1/2 way through 2nd term, as per Boris, then surely there will already be new leader. Or have I missed something?
    It is difficult to see but he is, together with La Thornberry (and Stevie Kinnock IMO), transparently suitable to be next Lab Leader. Given the chaotic state of UK politics atm I am reasonably comfortable with the bet.
    Kinnock is a fool, as the election documentary showed.

    So perhaps he is suitable!
    Only if there is no reduction in the number of MP's and subsequent changes of constituencies when his own will cease to exist, he is not guaranteed to become a candidate for a new one, even with the backing of his father and the Cardiff Taffia LPHQ. He has upset too many local members and supporters. Main residence in Switzerland, although he does own a terrace house in the constituency, which, he seemingly has never been seen in, children private school educated not admitted to at the selection committee stage, and an interesting investigation by the Danish Tax authorities on himself and his wife.......
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 10,622
    geoffw said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Another green change we might usefully make is having more milkmen.

    I've been using one for years. Fresh milk every morning. In bottles. Which get returned and reused.

    And no plastic to throw away. Plus they use electric vehicles.

    In fact, just like how it used to be when I was growing up.....

    Horse and cart in my day, and a side helping of fertiliser for the roses as well.
    I'd have complained about that milkman if I were you.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 1,222

    geoffw said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Another green change we might usefully make is having more milkmen.

    I've been using one for years. Fresh milk every morning. In bottles. Which get returned and reused.

    And no plastic to throw away. Plus they use electric vehicles.

    In fact, just like how it used to be when I was growing up.....

    Horse and cart in my day, and a side helping of fertiliser for the roses as well.
    I'd have complained about that milkman if I were you.
    He wasn't the fastest in the West.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 10,622
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re those celebrating Khan's tweet about Trump getting the message from Londoners...

    I am in two minds about this. I do not like Trump at all.

    But celebrating that the leader of a very major world power does not think it worth his while coming, especially given the other countries he has visited, does rather highlight our irrelevance.

    France managed to offer him a welcome - and I doubt that either Macron or the Parisians are any more fond of Trump than Khan and Londoners. I am quite certain that France is using that visit to position itself as the US's special friend in Europe.

    Khan is in danger of celebrating something which emphasises our diminished status in the world. A short-term tactical victory at the expense of a long-term strategy. If he really does have ambitions for the top job, he might want to think a bit harder about issues like this.

    Knowing how volatile Trump is and his mood swings if we are not careful we may see him tweeting something like 'had a great trip to Paris last summer welcomed by the President of France, our oldest ally, not one protestor, meanwhile Great Britain, against whom we had to fight a war to gain independence, refuses to grant me a proper welcome, SAD'
    Er, he's not coming.
    How do you properly welcome someone who (of their own volition) calls off a visit?
    As Trump has previously said he is not coming to London until he gets a good enough welcome
    Oh? I thought it was some bollox about a rubbishy property deal.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 13,417
    Pulpstar said:

    Electric vehicles are essentially as clean as the constituent power makeup of the country overall, no :) ?

    And the energy used in the electrolysis to produce the lithium for the battery. At least doesn't need coking like other metals to purify.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,555

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re those celebrating Khan's tweet about Trump getting the message from Londoners...

    I am in two minds about this. I do not like Trump at all.

    But celebrating that the leader of a very major world power does not think it worth his while coming, especially given the other countries he has visited, does rather highlight our irrelevance.

    France managed to offer him a welcome - and I doubt that either Macron or the Parisians are any more fond of Trump than Khan and Londoners. I am quite certain that France is using that visit to position itself as the US's special friend in Europe.

    Khan is in danger of celebrating something which emphasises our diminished status in the world. A short-term tactical victory at the expense of a long-term strategy. If he really does have ambitions for the top job, he might want to think a bit harder about issues like this.

    Knowing how volatile Trump is and his mood swings if we are not careful we may see him tweeting something like 'had a great trip to Paris last summer welcomed by the President of France, our oldest ally, not one protestor, meanwhile Great Britain, against whom we had to fight a war to gain independence, refuses to grant me a proper welcome, SAD'
    Er, he's not coming.
    How do you properly welcome someone who (of their own volition) calls off a visit?
    As Trump has previously said he is not coming to London until he gets a good enough welcome
    Oh? I thought it was some bollox about a rubbishy property deal.
    He has made clear to May on frequent phone calls he is not coming until he gets a warm welcome and the red carpet
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 1,925
    Scott_P said:
    Jesus - Gove makes Trump look sane.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 25,664
    edited January 12
    Scott_P said:
    Is this guy also part of team twat?

    image

    I particularly like this one...Fonzie wannabes.

    image
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 12,280
    Pulpstar said:

    Electric vehicles are essentially as clean as the constituent power makeup of the country overall, no :) ?

    As far as emissions while driving are concerned yes.

    As far as global pollution of all types is concerned, no. The most polluting element of electric vehicles is arguably mining the Rare Earth Elements necessary in their battery construction.

    However that's a different type of pollution and drilling for oil isn't exactly without damage either. Plus its better for us if the pollution is concentrated at certain mines in China and not in the air we breath. Even for the Chinese they'll be happy to see far cleaner air in their very polluted cities.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 1,925
    Cyclefree said:

    murali_s said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re those celebrating Khan's tweet about Trump getting the message from Londoners...

    I am in two minds about this. I do not like Trump at all.

    But celebrating that the leader of a very major world power does not think it worth his while coming, especially given the other countries he has visited, does rather highlight our irrelevance.

    France managed to offer him a welcome - and I doubt that either Macron or the Parisians are any more fond of Trump than Khan and Londoners. I am quite certain that France is using that visit to position itself as the US's special friend in Europe.

    Khan is in danger of celebrating something which emphasises our diminished status in the world. A short-term tactical victory at the expense of a long-term strategy. If he really does have ambitions for the top job, he might want to think a bit harder about issues like this.

    Knowing how volatile Trump is and his mood swings if we are not careful we may see him tweeting something like 'had a great trip to Paris last summer welcomed by the President of France, our oldest ally, not one protestor, meanwhile Great Britain, against whom we had to fight a war to gain independence, refuses to grant me a proper welcome, SAD'
    That is a reflection of Trump not the USA. The bigotted white suprematist is not welcome in London.
    But is apparently welcome in Paris.

    Now, think about that for a moment..... Britain needs friends. Do you think France is not going to use what advantages it can get from that visit? Meanwhile we can earn our living tweeting about white supremacists, I suppose.....
    Leverage with Trump is non existent unless you want to prostrate in front of him obeying his every command. The UK has moved away from being a pathetic satellite state of the USA. Thank God!
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 3,249
    murali_s said:

    AGW is real and happening. We have moved on from debate now. The pertinent questions are what are we going to do about it? Though progress has been slow, the policy makers are FINALLY getting round to the fact that something needs to be done and fast. I am hopeful....

    I don’t share your optimism.
    In many countries, the right don’t accept there is a problem.
    Overall the political will isn’t there as far as I can see.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 33,890
    @nickeardleybbc: Kezia Dugdale was paid £70,000 for appearance on I'm a Celeb last year. She's donated £5,100 to charity (plus MSP salary during absence from Holyrood)
  • Scott_P said:
    Is this guy also part of team twat?

    image

    I particularly like this one...Fonzie wannabes.

    image
    Well he's French, so yes.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,555
    murali_s said:

    Cyclefree said:

    murali_s said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re those celebrating Khan's tweet about Trump getting the message from Londoners...

    I am in two minds about this. I do not like Trump at all.

    But celebrating that the leader of a very major world power does not think it worth his while coming, especially given the other countries he has visited, does rather highlight our irrelevance.

    France managed to offer him a welcome - and I doubt that either Macron or the Parisians are any more fond of Trump than Khan and Londoners. I am quite certain that France is using that visit to position itself as the US's special friend in Europe.

    Khan is in danger of celebrating something which emphasises our diminished status in the world. A short-term tactical victory at the expense of a long-term strategy. If he really does have ambitions for the top job, he might want to think a bit harder about issues like this.

    Knowing how volatile Trump is and his mood swings if we are not careful we may see him tweeting something like 'had a great trip to Paris last summer welcomed by the President of France, our oldest ally, not one protestor, meanwhile Great Britain, against whom we had to fight a war to gain independence, refuses to grant me a proper welcome, SAD'
    That is a reflection of Trump not the USA. The bigotted white suprematist is not welcome in London.
    But is apparently welcome in Paris.

    Now, think about that for a moment..... Britain needs friends. Do you think France is not going to use what advantages it can get from that visit? Meanwhile we can earn our living tweeting about white supremacists, I suppose.....
    Leverage with Trump is non existent unless you want to prostrate in front of him obeying his every command. The UK has moved away from being a pathetic satellite state of the USA. Thank God!
    No Macron has dealt with him effectively, the UK has now isolated itself from both the EU and USA
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 10,622
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re those celebrating Khan's tweet about Trump getting the message from Londoners...

    I am in two minds about this. I do not like Trump at all.

    But celebrating that the leader of a very major world power does not think it worth his while coming, especially given the other countries he has visited, does rather highlight our irrelevance.

    France managed to offer him a welcome - and I doubt that either Macron or the Parisians are any more fond of Trump than Khan and Londoners. I am quite certain that France is using that visit to position itself as the US's special friend in Europe.

    Khan is in danger of celebrating something which emphasises our diminished status in the world. A short-term tactical victory at the expense of a long-term strategy. If he really does have ambitions for the top job, he might want to think a bit harder about issues like this.

    Knowing how volatile Trump is and his mood swings if we are not careful we may see him tweeting something like 'had a great trip to Paris last summer welcomed by the President of France, our oldest ally, not one protestor, meanwhile Great Britain, against whom we had to fight a war to gain independence, refuses to grant me a proper welcome, SAD'
    Er, he's not coming.
    How do you properly welcome someone who (of their own volition) calls off a visit?
    As Trump has previously said he is not coming to London until he gets a good enough welcome
    Oh? I thought it was some bollox about a rubbishy property deal.
    He has made clear to May on frequent phone calls he is not coming until he gets a warm welcome and the red carpet
    Lol, HYUFD finally revealed as the No.10 telephonist.

    'I'll just connect yew Mr President.'
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,555
    edited January 12

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re those celebrating Khan's tweet about Trump getting the message from Londoners...

    I am in two minds about this. I do not like Trump at all.

    But celebrating that the leader of a very major world power does not think it worth his while coming, especially given the other countries he has visited, does rather highlight our irrelevance.

    France managed to offer him a welcome - and I doubt that either Macron or the Parisians are any more fond of Trump than Khan and Londoners. I am quite certain that France is using that visit to position itself as the US's special friend in Europe.

    Khan is in danger of celebrating something which emphasises our diminished status in the world. A short-term tactical victory at the expense of a long-term strategy. If he really does have ambitions for the top job, he might want to think a bit harder about issues like this.

    Knowing how volatile Trump is and his mood swings if we are not careful we may see him tweeting something like 'had a great trip to Paris last summer welcomed by the President of France, our oldest ally, not one protestor, meanwhile Great Britain, against whom we had to fight a war to gain independence, refuses to grant me a proper welcome, SAD'
    Er, he's not coming.
    How do you properly welcome someone who (of their own volition) calls off a visit?
    As Trump has previously said he is not coming to London until he gets a good enough welcome
    Oh? I thought it was some bollox about a rubbishy property deal.
    He has made clear to May on frequent phone calls he is not coming until he gets a warm welcome and the red carpet
    Lol, HYUFD finally revealed as the No.10 telephonist.

    'I'll just connect yew Mr President.'
    As reported in the press

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jun/11/donald-trump-state-visit-to-britain-put-on-hold
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 943

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sadiq Khan seems to be rising with trace.

    His tweet that Trump got the message from Londoners will attract notice from the right people.

    25/1 next Lab leader...

    He deserves to be much, much shorter odds than that. My tip for quite some while. He's the only proven vote-winner who could replace Corbyn.
    I'm on him at 50/1

    But difficult to see him jumping away from London mayor job in first term to win a by-election (which would probably have to be a London seat to be realistic). If he goes 1/2 way through 2nd term, as per Boris, then surely there will already be new leader. Or have I missed something?
    It is difficult to see but he is, together with La Thornberry (and Stevie Kinnock IMO), transparently suitable to be next Lab Leader. Given the chaotic state of UK politics atm I am reasonably comfortable with the bet.
    Kinnock is a fool, as the election documentary showed.

    So perhaps he is suitable!
    My opinion of La Thornberry is no higher.....
    Where as the general opinion of TMay and Boris is that they are the greatest statespersons this country has ever known.........
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 3,948
    Scott_P said:

    @elashton: Politics 2018, part two. Does the prime minister regard the mayor of London as a pompous popinjay? Spokesman: “Look I’m not going to get into commenting on a tweet I haven’t seen yet.”

    Bragging bufflehead in epithet exchange with pompous popinjay...
    Masses unmoved.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 42,098
    edited January 12
    Yangtze River, China

    This was the worst offender, according to research published in the journal Environmental Science & Technology. It carries up to 1.5 million tonnes of plastic into the sea every year. In contrast, the Thames puts 18 tonnes of plastic into the ocean.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 40,084
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    A query: imagine a talented and handsome young man who, alas, doesn't earn enough to put him over the income tax threshold but does pay National Insurance (which I believe has been rolled together, since last year, with income tax into a single bill). Is he classed as a taxpayer? It doesn't matter, I'm just curious, as the nun said to the basketball team.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 25,664
    Something I haven't noticed before until I posted those pictures...the Trump never wears his wedding ring.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 40,084
    Mr. Urquhart, unfortunately, his massive hand and huge finger is too large for any ring. Sad.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 3,249
    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    murali_s said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re those celebrating Khan's tweet about Trump getting the message from Londoners...

    I am in two minds about this. I do not like Trump at all.

    But celebrating that the leader of a very major world power does not think it worth his while coming, especially given the other countries he has visited, does rather highlight our irrelevance.

    France managed to offer him a welcome - and I doubt that either Macron or the Parisians are any more fond of Trump than Khan and Londoners. I am quite certain that France is using that visit to position itself as the US's special friend in Europe.

    Khan is in danger of celebrating something which emphasises our diminished status in the world. A short-term tactical victory at the expense of a long-term strategy. If he really does have ambitions for the top job, he might want to think a bit harder about issues like this.

    Knowing how volatile Trump is and his mood swings if we are not careful we may see him tweeting something like 'had a great trip to Paris last summer welcomed by the President of France, our oldest ally, not one protestor, meanwhile Great Britain, against whom we had to fight a war to gain independence, refuses to grant me a proper welcome, SAD'
    That is a reflection of Trump not the USA. The bigotted white suprematist is not welcome in London.
    But is apparently welcome in Paris.

    Now, think about that for a moment..... Britain needs friends. Do you think France is not going to use what advantages it can get from that visit? Meanwhile we can earn our living tweeting about white supremacists, I suppose.....
    Macron certainly played a blinder on Trump last year, making clear he disagreed with him on many issues first then rolling out the red carpet for him soon after, the exact opposite of May's strategy
    Has that actually helped France in any tangible way?
    Even if Donald Trump explicitly said - give me a great state visit and I will give you a killer trade deal I would not trust him to deliver. His career is littered with him going back on his word, refusing to honour deals and his influence in Congress is akin to a lame duck President. He changes his mind every time he turns on the news - there is no way we can rely on him.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 5,443
    Pulpstar said:

    Yangtze River, China

    This was the worst offender, according to research published in the journal Environmental Science & Technology. It carries up to 1.5 million tonnes of plastic into the sea every year. In contrast, the Thames puts 18 tonnes of plastic into the ocean.

    Didn't we send our plastic waste to China until very recently?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,116
    edited January 12
    murali_s said:

    Cyclefree said:

    murali_s said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re those celebrating Khan's tweet about Trump getting the message from Londoners...

    I am in two minds about this. I do not like Trump at all.

    But celebrating that the leader of a very major world power does not think it worth his while coming, especially given the other countries he has visited, does rather highlight our irrelevance.

    France managed to offer him a welcome - and I doubt that either Macron or the Parisians are any more fond of Trump than Khan and Londoners. I am quite certain that France is using that visit to position itself as the US's special friend in Europe.

    Khan is in danger of celebrating something which emphasises our diminished status in the world. A short-term tactical victory at the expense of a long-term strategy. If he really does have ambitions for the top job, he might want to think a bit harder about issues like this.

    Knowing how volatile Trump is and his mood swings if we are not careful we may see him tweeting something like 'had a great trip to Paris last summer welcomed by the President of France, our oldest ally, not one protestor, meanwhile Great Britain, against whom we had to fight a war to gain independence, refuses to grant me a proper welcome, SAD'
    That is a reflection of Trump not the USA. The bigotted white suprematist is not welcome in London.
    But is apparently welcome in Paris.

    Now, think about that for a moment..... Britain needs friends. Do you think France is not going to use what advantages it can get from that visit? Meanwhile we can earn our living tweeting about white supremacists, I suppose.....
    Leverage with Trump is non existent unless you want to prostrate in front of him obeying his every command. The UK has moved away from being a pathetic satellite state of the USA. Thank God!
    France has not prostrated itself. It has acted in its own interests and not allowed those interests to be affected by either sentimentality about special relationships or self-righteous w**kery about how awful the current holder of the office is.

    There was a time when politicians in Britain understood that we had no permanent friends only interests.

    Now politics is apparently a hobby for people who, frankly, should not be allowed out of the house and have the attention span of a mayfly.......
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,604

    Scott_P said:
    Is this guy also part of team twat?

    image

    I particularly like this one...Fonzie wannabes.

    image
    Well he's French, so yes.
    Thanks. You just made me snort out loud in my client's office.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 37,555
    edited January 12
    rkrkrk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    murali_s said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re those celebrating Khan's tweet about Trump getting the message from Londoners...

    I am in two minds about this. I do not like Trump at all.

    But celebrating that the leader of a very major world power does not think it worth his while coming, especially given the other countries he has visited, does rather highlight our irrelevance.

    France managed to offer him a welcome - and I doubt that either Macron or the Parisians are any more fond of Trump than Khan and Londoners. I am quite certain that France is using that visit to position itself as the US's special friend in Europe.

    Khan is in danger of celebrating something which emphasises our diminished status in the world. A short-term tactical victory at the expense of a long-term strategy. If he really does have ambitions for the top job, he might want to think a bit harder about issues like this.

    Knowing how volatile Trump is and his mood swings if we are not careful we may see him tweeting something like 'had a great trip to Paris last summer welcomed by the President of France, our oldest ally, not one protestor, meanwhile Great Britain, against whom we had to fight a war to gain independence, refuses to grant me a proper welcome, SAD'
    That is a reflection of Trump not the USA. The bigotted white suprematist is not welcome in London.
    But is apparently welcome in Paris.

    Now, think about that for a moment..... Britain needs friends. Do you think France is not going to use what advantages it can get from that visit? Meanwhile we can earn our living tweeting about white supremacists, I suppose.....
    Macron certainly played a blinder on Trump last year, making clear he disagreed with him on many issues first then rolling out the red carpet for him soon after, the exact opposite of May's strategy
    Has that actually helped France in any tangible way?
    Even if Donald Trump explicitly said - give me a great state visit and I will give you a killer trade deal I would not trust him to deliver. His career is littered with him going back on his word, refusing to honour deals and his influence in Congress is akin to a lame duck President. He changes his mind every time he turns on the news - there is no way we can rely on him.
    It may well do in future and Macron is going from a position of strength as with Merkel weak he is de facto leader of the EU while we are becoming increasingly isolationist
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 25,664
    edited January 12

    Scott_P said:
    Is this guy also part of team twat?

    image

    I particularly like this one...Fonzie wannabes.

    image
    Well he's French, so yes.
    I have no idea why that move to Paris never panned out for you ;-)
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,604
    Cyclefree said:

    geoffw said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Another green change we might usefully make is having more milkmen.

    I've been using one for years. Fresh milk every morning. In bottles. Which get returned and reused.

    And no plastic to throw away. Plus they use electric vehicles.

    In fact, just like how it used to be when I was growing up.....

    Horse and cart in my day, and a side helping of fertiliser for the roses as well.
    I remember the rag and bone man.......

    Don't put the blame on me.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 3,249
    HYUFD said:

    rkrkrk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    murali_s said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re those celebrating Khan's tweet about Trump getting the message from Londoners...

    I am in two minds about this. I do not like Trump at all.

    But celebrating that the leader of a very major world power does not think it worth his while coming, especially given the other countries he has visited, does rather highlight our irrelevance.

    France managed to offer him a welcome - and I doubt that either Macron or the Parisians are any more fond of Trump than Khan and Londoners. I am quite certain that France is using that visit to position itself as the US's special friend in Europe.

    Khan is in danger of celebrating something which emphasises our diminished status in the world. A short-term tactical victory at the expense of a long-term strategy. If he really does have ambitions for the top job, he might want to think a bit harder about issues like this.

    Knowing how volatile Trump is and his mood swings if we are not careful we may see him tweeting something like 'had a great trip to Paris last summer welcomed by the President of France, our oldest ally, not one protestor, meanwhile Great Britain, against whom we had to fight a war to gain independence, refuses to grant me a proper welcome, SAD'
    That is a reflection of Trump not the USA. The bigotted white suprematist is not welcome in London.
    But is apparently welcome in Paris.

    Now, think about that for a moment..... Britain needs friends. Do you think France is not going to use what advantages it can get from that visit? Meanwhile we can earn our living tweeting about white supremacists, I suppose.....
    Macron certainly played a blinder on Trump last year, making clear he disagreed with him on many issues first then rolling out the red carpet for him soon after, the exact opposite of May's strategy
    Has that actually helped France in any tangible way?
    Even if Donald Trump explicitly said - give me a great state visit and I will give you a killer trade deal I would not trust him to deliver. His career is littered with him going back on his word, refusing to honour deals and his influence in Congress is akin to a lame duck President. He changes his mind every time he turns on the news - there is no way we can rely on him.
    It may well do in future and Macron is going from.a position of strength as with Merkel weak he is de facto leader of the EU while we are becoming increasingly isolationist
    I think it makes very little difference except for PR.
    Trump can offer us nothing - he doesn’t have the power to get stuff done.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,604
    Cyclefree said:

    Another green change we might usefully make is having more milkmen.

    I've been using one for years. Fresh milk every morning. In bottles. Which get returned and reused.

    And no plastic to throw away. Plus they use electric vehicles.

    In fact, just like how it used to be when I was growing up.....

    Hmm.. My milkman left a note for me one morning in November asking if I'd prefer "polys" to bottles?

    I told him to get stuffed - well, I said no thank you, politely - because bottled milk is the whole bloody point of having a milkman.

    Short version: we reckon he couldn't be arsed to walk to pick up the empties and back, and then deposit the new milk and back. It was easier for him to just drop off milk, because we'd dispose of carton milk ourselves.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 42,098

    Pulpstar said:

    Yangtze River, China

    This was the worst offender, according to research published in the journal Environmental Science & Technology. It carries up to 1.5 million tonnes of plastic into the sea every year. In contrast, the Thames puts 18 tonnes of plastic into the ocean.

    Didn't we send our plastic waste to China until very recently?
    Yes. It went to their reprocessing plants.

    Was it making up a significant proportion of the stuff that ends up floating down the Yellow River ?
    Not likely.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 11,628
    HYUFD said:

    rkrkrk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    murali_s said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re those celebrating Khan's tweet about Trump getting the message from Londoners...

    I am in two minds about this. I do not like Trump at all.

    But celebrating that the leader of a very major world power does not think it worth his while coming, especially given the other countries he has visited, does rather highlight our irrelevance.

    France managed to offer him a welcome - and I doubt that either Macron or the Parisians are any more fond of Trump than Khan and Londoners. I am quite certain that France is using that visit to position itself as the US's special friend in Europe.

    Khan is in danger of celebrating something which emphasises our diminished status in the world. A short-term tactical victory at the expense of a long-term strategy. If he really does have ambitions for the top job, he might want to think a bit harder about issues like this.

    Knowing how volatile Trump is and his mood swings if we are not careful we may see him tweeting something like 'had a great trip to Paris last summer welcomed by the President of France, our oldest ally, not one protestor, meanwhile Great Britain, against whom we had to fight a war to gain independence, refuses to grant me a proper welcome, SAD'
    That is a reflection of Trump not the USA. The bigotted white suprematist is not welcome in London.
    But is apparently welcome in Paris.

    Now, think about that for a moment..... Britain needs friends. Do you think France is not going to use what advantages it can get from that visit? Meanwhile we can earn our living tweeting about white supremacists, I suppose.....
    Macron certainly played a blinder on Trump last year, making clear he disagreed with him on many issues first then rolling out the red carpet for him soon after, the exact opposite of May's strategy
    Has that actually helped France in any tangible way?
    Even if Donald Trump explicitly said - give me a great state visit and I will give you a killer trade deal I would not trust him to deliver. His career is littered with him going back on his word, refusing to honour deals and his influence in Congress is akin to a lame duck President. He changes his mind every time he turns on the news - there is no way we can rely on him.
    It may well do in future and Macron is going from a position of strength as with Merkel weak he is de facto leader of the EU while we are becoming increasingly isolationist
    Is that you, HYUFD?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,511
    Cyclefree said:

    murali_s said:

    Cyclefree said:

    murali_s said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Re those celebrating Khan's tweet about Trump getting the message from Londoners...

    I am in two minds about this. I do not like Trump at all.

    But celebrating that the leader of a very major world power does not think it worth his while coming, especially given the other countries he has visited, does rather highlight our irrelevance.

    France managed to offer him a welcome - and I doubt that either Macron or the Parisians are any more fond of Trump than Khan and Londoners. I am quite certain that France is using that visit to position itself as the US's special friend in Europe.

    Khan is in danger of celebrating something which emphasises our diminished status in the world. A short-term tactical victory at the expense of a long-term strategy. If he really does have ambitions for the top job, he might want to think a bit harder about issues like this.

    Knowing how volatile Trump is and his mood swings if we are not careful we may see him tweeting something like 'had a great trip to Paris last summer welcomed by the President of France, our oldest ally, not one protestor, meanwhile Great Britain, against whom we had to fight a war to gain independence, refuses to grant me a proper welcome, SAD'
    That is a reflection of Trump not the USA. The bigotted white suprematist is not welcome in London.
    But is apparently welcome in Paris.

    Now, think about that for a moment..... Britain needs friends. Do you think France is not going to use what advantages it can get from that visit? Meanwhile we can earn our living tweeting about white supremacists, I suppose.....
    Leverage with Trump is non existent unless you want to prostrate in front of him obeying his every command. The UK has moved away from being a pathetic satellite state of the USA. Thank God!
    France has not prostrated itself. It has acted in its own interests and not allowed those interests to be affected by either sentimentality about special relationships or self-righteous w**kery about how awful the current holder of the office is.

    There was a time when politicians in Britain understood that we had no permanent friends only interests.

    Now politics is apparently a hobby for people who, frankly, should not be allowed out of the house and have the attention span of a mayfly.......
    I suspect technology has changed more than politicians. Before we not have been privy to these thoughts. I imagine most historic politicians worth their salt would have blistering contempt for Trump
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 15,528
    Cyclefree said:

    Green policies at council level often lack any sort of joined up thinking.

    Take my council, for instance: they have stopped collecting green waste from our gardens, unless we pay. So now people have to drive to the recycling centre to deposit their green waste. More air pollution is the result. Ditto with household waste - now collected every fortnight (which is generally fine because the vast majority of waste in my household is recyclable). If, for whatever reason, it is more than will fit into the bins, they won't collect it, even though the lorries are there and they insist that you drive it to the recycling centre.

    So by taking a rigidly jobsworth approach, they have likely increased the number of individual car journeys with all the attendant pollution. Furthermore, there has been a notable increase since the new policy came into effect of fly-tipping and waste being strewn about the streets.

    It would be nice if people could just think through the consequences of their proposals and think about the practical consequences for real people. Sigh.......

    And also think how these policies affect those without cars.

    AIUI the issue is the EU Landfill directive, which hopefully we can repeal. It would cost very little for the council to offer a pick-up service for disposal of large items that could benefit the community much more than fly tipping would.

    As an example, about a decade ago (and I’m going to take a guess that this has got a lot worse since then), a friend had an old sofa to get rid of. It wouldn’t fit in his car so I borrowed a van, we loaded the sofa and took it to the local ‘tip’. The jobsworth at the entrance pointed at the ‘No Commerical Vehicles’ sign and directed me to another ‘tip’ in a bigger town a few miles away. I went there and was invited to drive to the weighbridge, where they would weigh my vehicle before and after ‘dumping its waste’ and charge me appropriately. Any protests that I had a perfectly serviceable sofa that they might be able to find a good home for were met with absolute derision. I ended up driving the sofa to a different local authority’s ‘tip’ and they were more accommodating, hopefully some family in a Council house with no money ended up with a nice second hand sofa.

    And we wonder why fly-tippping is a problem.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,692

    Pulpstar said:

    Yangtze River, China

    This was the worst offender, according to research published in the journal Environmental Science & Technology. It carries up to 1.5 million tonnes of plastic into the sea every year. In contrast, the Thames puts 18 tonnes of plastic into the ocean.

    Didn't we send our plastic waste to China until very recently?
    We did and I must admit, being a cynic about Government motivations, I do wonder if the sudden conversion to being anti-plastic has as much to do with that disposal route being closed as it does to the recent sea plastic campaigns.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 42,098
    Cyclefree said:

    geoffw said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Another green change we might usefully make is having more milkmen.

    I've been using one for years. Fresh milk every morning. In bottles. Which get returned and reused.

    And no plastic to throw away. Plus they use electric vehicles.

    In fact, just like how it used to be when I was growing up.....

    Horse and cart in my day, and a side helping of fertiliser for the roses as well.
    I remember the rag and bone man.......

    Horse manure will burn the roots of roses. You need to let it rot down first.....
    Remember ?

    This still goes on 'op north ;) !
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