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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » What makes people proud to be British by party and Brexit choi

SystemSystem Posts: 3,967
edited February 7 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » What makes people proud to be British by party and Brexit choice

The above YouGov polling sets out clearly how important the NHS and the memory of what Britain did during the war are central to national identity.

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,300
    It is a religion, after all.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 5,892
    Revote Remain for £350 million a week for the NHS.

    Is there a bus somewhere we can stick that on?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 10,014
    I think the differences that appear between Leave and Remain voters - which are not that big, as you say - are just side-effects of the differences in demographics in the referendum. Having a big empire is a more appealing thought for older conservatives than young lefties, legalisation of homosxuality the reverse, and older conservatives tended to vote Leave much more than young lefties.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 4,835
    Interesting how unrepresentative pb.com is in this regard.

    I wonder how different the results might have been were the question unprompted?

    What other things should have been on the list?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 20,908
    This new thread is terrible: it means no one will read all my incredibly important posts about tariffs on milk products.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 4,835
    rcs1000 said:

    This new thread is terrible: it means no one will read all my incredibly important posts about tariffs on milk products.

    Can you tell me where all the Irish cheddar is hiding? All the cheese I see in the supermarkets has the Union flag, aside from Jarlsberg and other exotic cheeses.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 4,530
    I will never understand this fetishisation of a way of paying for medical services.

    The list is very odd. I would rank the Englishness of Shakespeare, Darwin, Newton and (by adoption) Rutherford streets ahead of any of that lot.

    The slavery thing has always perplexed me because it is so asymmetrical: starting and participating in the trade are thousands of times more evil, than abolishing it is good. And it's not as if we withdrew from it entirely: there's well-heeled families all up the West coast from Bristol upwards whose fortunes derive from mid C19th "sugar merchants" and "cotton merchants" who weren't just trading those commodities; and even if they were, the cfommodities themselves were the product of slave labour.

    Date of Habeas Corpus is out by over 500 years.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 20,908

    Interesting how unrepresentative pb.com is in this regard.

    I wonder how different the results might have been were the question unprompted?

    What other things should have been on the list?

    They should have added:

    Joining the EU, 1973
    and
    The Brexit referendum, 2016

    Just for the laughs.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 5,892
    rcs1000 said:

    This new thread is terrible: it means no one will read all my incredibly important posts about tariffs on milk products.

    The minus sign was missing on the London impacts of Brexit, but I didn't connect that to milk. Sorry
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 20,908

    rcs1000 said:

    This new thread is terrible: it means no one will read all my incredibly important posts about tariffs on milk products.

    Can you tell me where all the Irish cheddar is hiding? All the cheese I see in the supermarkets has the Union flag, aside from Jarlsberg and other exotic cheeses.
    I'm sorry, but I don't know :frown:
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 9,116
    Ishmael_Z said:

    I will never understand this fetishisation of a way of paying for medical services.

    The list is very odd. I would rank the Englishness of Shakespeare, Darwin, Newton and (by adoption) Rutherford streets ahead of any of that lot.

    The slavery thing has always perplexed me because it is so asymmetrical: starting and participating in the trade are thousands of times more evil, than abolishing it is good. And it's not as if we withdrew from it entirely: there's well-heeled families all up the West coast from Bristol upwards whose fortunes derive from mid C19th "sugar merchants" and "cotton merchants" who weren't just trading those commodities; and even if they were, the cfommodities themselves were the product of slave labour.

    Date of Habeas Corpus is out by over 500 years.

    I found our Olympia opening ceremony very 'mixed'. Dancing, good, moving around hospital beds, pretty poor...
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 5,892

    I think the differences that appear between Leave and Remain voters - which are not that big, as you say - are just side-effects of the differences in demographics in the referendum. Having a big empire is a more appealing thought for older conservatives than young lefties, legalisation of homosxuality the reverse, and older conservatives tended to vote Leave much more than young lefties.

    The key takeaway is the number of Leavers who feel strongly about Wellington seeing off Napoleon at Waterloo? Must warm the cockles of JRM.
  • Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 527
    edited February 7
    Bloody hell, our Eurovision entry is very, very good... should be a hot favourite, but...

    Edit with link:

  • Depending on my mood my vote would have gone to

    1) The introduction of Habeas Corpus

    2) Signing of Magna Carta

    3) Thrashing the French/Spandiards at Trafalgar & Waterloo, especially as Waterloo was part of a multi national European Community/Union

    4) Cromwell winning The Civil War and executing Charles I
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 20,908
    Digging through the EU's tariff schedule, I discover that cricket equipment (bats, balls, pads, etc.) are free from tariffs, but golf balls are subject to 2.7%.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 3,155

    rcs1000 said:

    This new thread is terrible: it means no one will read all my incredibly important posts about tariffs on milk products.

    Can you tell me where all the Irish cheddar is hiding? All the cheese I see in the supermarkets has the Union flag, aside from Jarlsberg and other exotic cheeses.
    Well from this morning’s thread I think there’s a good chance it’s stuck on a particularly wiggly bit of border on the N54 between Cavan and Monaghan encircled by an intractable customs conundrum and County Fermanagh. Still, entrapped as they are, I’m sure all the cheese drivers have time on their hands and are brushing up on RCS’ “world milk products tariff primer”. Man - that book’s an unputdownable bodice ripper!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,300

    Depending on my mood my vote would have gone to

    1) The introduction of Habeas Corpus

    2) Signing of Magna Carta

    3) Thrashing the French/Spandiards at Trafalgar & Waterloo, especially as Waterloo was part of a multi national European Community/Union

    4) Cromwell winning The Civil War and executing Charles I

    For me it’d be the Restoration, and the end of the tyrannical protectorate. :p
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 4,530
    rcs1000 said:

    Digging through the EU's tariff schedule, I discover that cricket equipment (bats, balls, pads, etc.) are free from tariffs, but golf balls are subject to 2.7%.

    Very tenuous connection, but surely this is the best statistic ever?
    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/russians-purchased-500000-baseball-bats-in-one-year-but-only-one-ball-report-2016-09-01
  • RobD said:

    Depending on my mood my vote would have gone to

    1) The introduction of Habeas Corpus

    2) Signing of Magna Carta

    3) Thrashing the French/Spandiards at Trafalgar & Waterloo, especially as Waterloo was part of a multi national European Community/Union

    4) Cromwell winning The Civil War and executing Charles I

    For me it’d be the Restoration, and the end of the tyrannical protectorate. :p
    The restoration ultimately led to us being conquered by a Netherlander upstart.

    Take back control from unelected foreigners and all that jazz.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 6,272
    Good evening all.

    - Declaring war when Belgium's neutrality was violated.
    - The Africa squadron (not only did we abolish slavery, we tried to stop others too)
    - The GRA.
  • calum said:
    Faisal Islam gets so excited when he thinks his negative reports will stop Brexit. Sadly for him it turns people off
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 5,892
    The problem with this list is that at least one other country that we might want to be compared with have done the same things. Our healthcare system is OK by international standards but it didn'td stand out, nor is it the best.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 9,296
    Rexel56 said:

    Bloody hell, our Eurovision entry is very, very good... should be a hot favourite, but...

    Edit with link:

    That is rather good.

    Our best entry since Katrina and the Waves surely
  • Rexel56 said:

    Bloody hell, our Eurovision entry is very, very good... should be a hot favourite, but...

    Edit with link:

    That is rather good.

    Our best entry since Katrina and the Waves surely
    I didn't know Katie Hopkins could sing
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 9,296
    On Topic.

    We have a winner.

    A clear winner.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 20,010

    Out of curiosity, I'd like a survey to ask if people are proud of the slave trade, or ashamed of fighting against Hitler.
  • Rexel56 said:

    Bloody hell, our Eurovision entry is very, very good... should be a hot favourite, but...

    Edit with link:

    That is rather good.

    Our best entry since Katrina and the Waves surely
    Good lyrics for everyone on each side of the Brexit divide - storms don't last forever !!
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 9,296

    Rexel56 said:

    Bloody hell, our Eurovision entry is very, very good... should be a hot favourite, but...

    Edit with link:

    That is rather good.

    Our best entry since Katrina and the Waves surely
    I didn't know Katie Hopkins could sing
    In Afrikaan hopefully
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 25,690
    FF43 said:

    I think the differences that appear between Leave and Remain voters - which are not that big, as you say - are just side-effects of the differences in demographics in the referendum. Having a big empire is a more appealing thought for older conservatives than young lefties, legalisation of homosxuality the reverse, and older conservatives tended to vote Leave much more than young lefties.

    The key takeaway is the number of Leavers who feel strongly about Wellington seeing off Napoleon at Waterloo? Must warm the cockles of JRM.
    TSE gets turned on too :lol:
  • @Jason_Keen: #Brexit Secretary @DavidDavisMP told #marr as recently as December that no sectoral impact assessments existed.

    Did he not know about these? Or have they only been done in the past six weeks? If so, who ordered them?

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 25,690

    Rexel56 said:

    Bloody hell, our Eurovision entry is very, very good... should be a hot favourite, but...

    Edit with link:

    That is rather good.

    Our best entry since Katrina and the Waves surely
    We were 5th in 2009
  • @Jason_Keen: #Brexit Secretary @DavidDavisMP told #marr as recently as December that no sectoral impact assessments existed.

    Did he not know about these? Or have they only been done in the past six weeks? If so, who ordered them?

    Who cares
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 10,845


    What other things should have been on the list?

    The cruelly cut short flowering of grid girls, c.1988-2017.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 9,296
    edited February 7
    They have mostly been deselected havent they. Blairites gone rogue

    Even Lammy thinks its a shite plan

  • @Jason_Keen: #Brexit Secretary @DavidDavisMP told #marr as recently as December that no sectoral impact assessments existed.

    Did he not know about these? Or have they only been done in the past six weeks? If so, who ordered them?

    Who cares
    The people whose jobs might be at risk?
  • They have mostly been deselected havent they.

    Even Lammy thinks its a shite plan
    If they are elected it does not matter if they are deselected
  • @Jason_Keen: #Brexit Secretary @DavidDavisMP told #marr as recently as December that no sectoral impact assessments existed.

    Did he not know about these? Or have they only been done in the past six weeks? If so, who ordered them?

    Who cares
    The people whose jobs might be at risk?
    Project fear in spades and even you say might be
  • They have mostly been deselected havent they. Blairites gone rogue

    Even Lammy thinks its a shite plan

    David Lammy's not exactly mastermind is he?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 9,296

    They have mostly been deselected havent they.

    Even Lammy thinks its a shite plan
    If they are elected it does not matter if they are deselected
    It matters in May when they are Ex Councillors
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 3,523

    @Jason_Keen: #Brexit Secretary @DavidDavisMP told #marr as recently as December that no sectoral impact assessments existed.

    Did he not know about these? Or have they only been done in the past six weeks? If so, who ordered them?

    Who cares
    The people whose jobs might be at risk?
    Those who prefer that politicians do not lie to the House?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,300


    What other things should have been on the list?

    The cruelly cut short flowering of grid girls, c.1988-2017.
    Stop, you are making me feel all nostalgic.
  • Scott_P said:
    Sky and Faisal Islam - the EU London broadcasting department
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 4,530
    edited February 7

    calum said:
    Faisal Islam gets so excited when he thinks his negative reports will stop Brexit. Sadly for him it turns people off
    Perhaps his misrepresentation of what Gove said about what people think about the opinions of egg spurts has become a self-fulfilling prophecy. A delicious thought.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 617
    edited February 7

    rcs1000 said:

    This new thread is terrible: it means no one will read all my incredibly important posts about tariffs on milk products.

    Can you tell me where all the Irish cheddar is hiding? All the cheese I see in the supermarkets has the Union flag, aside from Jarlsberg and other exotic cheeses.
    Plenty of it in our local C-Town here in suburban Noo Yawk. We have Irish, Welsh, Scottish and Canadian cheddar, and of course loads of that weird orange stuff that is indigenous "cheddar" but none actually from England strangely.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 506
    Sean_F said:


    Out of curiosity, I'd like a survey to ask if people are proud of the slave trade, or ashamed of fighting against Hitler.

    It's an odd survey of priorities for being proud. If we hadn't stood against Hitler in 1940 there would have been no NHS in 1948 and slavery would have been re introduced,

    Can you poll stupid?
  • I'd have added the industrial revolution to the list, I've always thought that is an important part of our history, we focus far too much on WWII and not that.

    1209 was also the most important year in the history of this Sceptred Isle.
  • **Drumroll**

    The greatest pun ever not to be created by me.

  • RobD said:


    What other things should have been on the list?

    The cruelly cut short flowering of grid girls, c.1988-2017.
    Stop, you are making me feel all nostalgic.
    Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
  • They have mostly been deselected havent they.

    Even Lammy thinks its a shite plan
    If they are elected it does not matter if they are deselected
    It matters in May when they are Ex Councillors
    But they are not at present and it opens a schism between Corbyn and these labour councillors. Also Claire Kober herself has accused labour of intimidation and bullying, highlighed in PMQ's today and very much a topic of condemnation by politiciams on all sides
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 20,010

    I'd have added the industrial revolution to the list, I've always thought that is an important part of our history, we focus far too much on WWII and not that.

    1209 was also the most important year in the history of this Sceptred Isle.

    The Industrial Revolution was massively important. For all of its cruelties, it produced a step-change in living standards. It meant that most people no longer had to live in dire poverty.

    What's important about 1209?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 9,296
    edited February 7
    As I understand it 17 Labour Councillors are against the HDV.

    Under Labour rules because the Labour group agreed to proceed with the HDV by 20 to 17 if the 17 voted against it in full council they would be automatically suspended by Labour for 6 months and therefore not able to stand in May 18 elections.

    Bigger picture most important the 17 plus 7 other Left Candidates (replacing 7 of the 20 Blairites) stand and win in May.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 20,908
    RobD said:
    'may' and 'up to' are the killer words here.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,685
    edited February 7
    Interesting the SW is set to be relatively unaffected by brexit;

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42977967

    Is it just a case of limited industry & low population density, or are there other factors?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 9,296

    They have mostly been deselected havent they. Blairites gone rogue

    Even Lammy thinks its a shite plan

    David Lammy's not exactly mastermind is he?
    Blair Kober i mean Clare Kober is?
  • As I understand it 17 Labour Councillors are against the HDV.

    Under Labour rules because the Labour group agreed to proceed with the HDV by 20 to 17 if the 17 voted against it they would be automatically suspended by Labour for 6 months and therefore not able to stand in May 18 elections.

    Bigger picture most important the 17 plus 7 other Left Candidates (replacing 7 of the 20 Blairites) stand and win in May.
    But you again ignore the bullying and intimidation - I have no comment on the rights and wrongs of the decision but labour under Corbyn is becoming the nasty party
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 20,010
    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:
    'may' and 'up to' are the killer words here.
    "up to" means " your guess is as good as mine."
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 4,530
    John_M said:

    Good evening all.

    - Declaring war when Belgium's neutrality was violated.
    - The Africa squadron (not only did we abolish slavery, we tried to stop others too)
    - The GRA.

    Historian, Professor David Richardson, has calculated that British ships carried 3.4 million or more enslaved Africans to the Americas.

    http://abolition.e2bn.org/slavery_45.html

    Between 1808 and 1860 the West Africa Squadron captured 1,600 slave ships and freed 150,000 Africans.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Africa_Squadron

    Like I said, asymmetrical.
  • Sean_F said:

    I'd have added the industrial revolution to the list, I've always thought that is an important part of our history, we focus far too much on WWII and not that.

    1209 was also the most important year in the history of this Sceptred Isle.

    The Industrial Revolution was massively important. For all of its cruelties, it produced a step-change in living standards. It meant that most people no longer had to live in dire poverty.

    What's important about 1209?
    The greatest and best university in the world was founded in 1209.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 9,296

    They have mostly been deselected havent they.

    Even Lammy thinks its a shite plan
    If they are elected it does not matter if they are deselected
    It matters in May when they are Ex Councillors
    But they are not at present and it opens a schism between Corbyn and these labour councillors. Also Claire Kober herself has accused labour of intimidation and bullying, highlighed in PMQ's today and very much a topic of condemnation by politiciams on all sides
    They still have to vote on a pause to the HDV is my understanding.

    They just voted against an LD motion to kill it completely.

    I think Ms Kober is in favour of a pause.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 26,638
    Act of Union 1707 - one of the longest lives Customs Unions and Single Markets in the world....complete with freedom of movement a common language, currency union with fiscal transfers.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 9,116

    Sean_F said:

    I'd have added the industrial revolution to the list, I've always thought that is an important part of our history, we focus far too much on WWII and not that.

    1209 was also the most important year in the history of this Sceptred Isle.

    The Industrial Revolution was massively important. For all of its cruelties, it produced a step-change in living standards. It meant that most people no longer had to live in dire poverty.

    What's important about 1209?
    The greatest and best university in the world was founded in 1209.
    Presumably if judged from the perspective of the Soviet Union?
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 6,272
    Pong said:

    Interesting the SW is set to be relatively unaffected by brexit;

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42977967

    Is it just a case of limited industry & low population density, or are there other factors?

    I live there. Barnier knows better than to mess with me ;).
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 4,530
    Sean_F said:

    I'd have added the industrial revolution to the list, I've always thought that is an important part of our history, we focus far too much on WWII and not that.

    1209 was also the most important year in the history of this Sceptred Isle.

    The Industrial Revolution was massively important. For all of its cruelties, it produced a step-change in living standards. It meant that most people no longer had to live in dire poverty.

    What's important about 1209?
    Oxford decided once and for all to be a world-class university, and exiled its no-hopers to somewhere flat and wet. Which nevertheless had an impressive run, all the way to 1636, of being definitely the best university in anywhere called Cambridge.
  • Mortimer said:

    Sean_F said:

    I'd have added the industrial revolution to the list, I've always thought that is an important part of our history, we focus far too much on WWII and not that.

    1209 was also the most important year in the history of this Sceptred Isle.

    The Industrial Revolution was massively important. For all of its cruelties, it produced a step-change in living standards. It meant that most people no longer had to live in dire poverty.

    What's important about 1209?
    The greatest and best university in the world was founded in 1209.
    Presumably if judged from the perspective of the Soviet Union?
    Nah, that’s the dump founded in 1096.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1423660/MI6-officer-suspected-of-being-Soviet-spy-was-never-questioned.html
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 9,296

    As I understand it 17 Labour Councillors are against the HDV.

    Under Labour rules because the Labour group agreed to proceed with the HDV by 20 to 17 if the 17 voted against it they would be automatically suspended by Labour for 6 months and therefore not able to stand in May 18 elections.

    Bigger picture most important the 17 plus 7 other Left Candidates (replacing 7 of the 20 Blairites) stand and win in May.
    But you again ignore the bullying and intimidation - I have no comment on the rights and wrongs of the decision but labour under Corbyn is becoming the nasty party
    And now they have voted to delay a decision until after May.

    What did you say earlier good on them.

    I do not make excuses for any bullying but there are 2 sides to this story some argue Clare Kober was bully in chief.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 20,010

    Sean_F said:

    I'd have added the industrial revolution to the list, I've always thought that is an important part of our history, we focus far too much on WWII and not that.

    1209 was also the most important year in the history of this Sceptred Isle.

    The Industrial Revolution was massively important. For all of its cruelties, it produced a step-change in living standards. It meant that most people no longer had to live in dire poverty.

    What's important about 1209?
    The greatest and best university in the world was founded in 1209.
    Exeter isn't that old.
  • They have mostly been deselected havent they.

    Even Lammy thinks its a shite plan
    If they are elected it does not matter if they are deselected
    It matters in May when they are Ex Councillors
    But they are not at present and it opens a schism between Corbyn and these labour councillors. Also Claire Kober herself has accused labour of intimidation and bullying, highlighed in PMQ's today and very much a topic of condemnation by politiciams on all sides
    They still have to vote on a pause to the HDV is my understanding.

    They just voted against an LD motion to kill it completely.

    I think Ms Kober is in favour of a pause.
    I think the wider issue is the very public accusation, repeated on Marr, by Ms Kober that she was intimidated and bullied, hence the Councillors support. Corbyn needs to address this as the narrative has changed and it is unacceptable for anyone now to conduct themselves this way
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 247

    calum said:
    Faisal Islam gets so excited when he thinks his negative reports will stop Brexit. Sadly for him it turns people off
    Brexit is over.
  • As I understand it 17 Labour Councillors are against the HDV.

    Under Labour rules because the Labour group agreed to proceed with the HDV by 20 to 17 if the 17 voted against it they would be automatically suspended by Labour for 6 months and therefore not able to stand in May 18 elections.

    Bigger picture most important the 17 plus 7 other Left Candidates (replacing 7 of the 20 Blairites) stand and win in May.
    But you again ignore the bullying and intimidation - I have no comment on the rights and wrongs of the decision but labour under Corbyn is becoming the nasty party
    And now they have voted to delay a decision until after May.

    What did you say earlier good on them.

    I do not make excuses for any bullying but there are 2 sides to this story some argue Clare Kober was bully in chief.
    You really need to accept labour are becoming the nasty party - there are more examples day by day
  • Fenman said:

    calum said:
    Faisal Islam gets so excited when he thinks his negative reports will stop Brexit. Sadly for him it turns people off
    Brexit is over.
    Not as far as he is concerned
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 25,690
    No mention of The Railways in Mike's YouGov!
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 20,010
    Fenman said:

    calum said:
    Faisal Islam gets so excited when he thinks his negative reports will stop Brexit. Sadly for him it turns people off
    Brexit is over.
    Doubt it.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 9,116
    Just saw the telegraph story online - but now it seems to have gone again??
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 16,719

    Fenman said:

    calum said:
    Faisal Islam gets so excited when he thinks his negative reports will stop Brexit. Sadly for him it turns people off
    Brexit is over.
    Not as far as he is concerned
    It really is. The last hurrah of Euroscepticism in 2016 has become its last gasp.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 16,719
    Mortimer said:

    Just saw the telegraph story online - but now it seems to have gone again??

    What did it say?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 1,344
    Mortimer said:

    Just saw the telegraph story online - but now it seems to have gone again??

    What was it?
    Worth staying up for? I suspect not...
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 25,652
    Four of these are specifically English, not British. Showing once again just how much of a driving force English nationalism was in the Brexit vote.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 1,265
    The stand out difference between Con and Lab/Lib is appreciation of "the reign of Queen Elizabeth II since 1952".
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 62,086
    edited February 7

    Mortimer said:

    Just saw the telegraph story online - but now it seems to have gone again??

    What was it?
    Worth staying up for? I suspect not...
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 9,116

    Mortimer said:

    Just saw the telegraph story online - but now it seems to have gone again??

    What did it say?
  • I loathe Nick Timothy more than I loathe Mark Reckless.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 20,010
    geoffw said:

    The stand out difference between Con and Lab/Lib is appreciation of "the reign of Queen Elizabeth II since 1952".

    And, standing against Hitler. My former councillor certainly thought we backed the wrong horse.
  • Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 527
    Second referendum the week after we win Eurovision... governments of all 27 EU states have secretly agreed douze points pour Royaume-Uni
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 791
    Ishmael_Z said:

    I will never understand this fetishisation of a way of paying for medical services.

    The list is very odd. I would rank the Englishness of Shakespeare, Darwin, Newton and (by adoption) Rutherford streets ahead of any of that lot.

    The slavery thing has always perplexed me because it is so asymmetrical: starting and participating in the trade are thousands of times more evil, than abolishing it is good. And it's not as if we withdrew from it entirely: there's well-heeled families all up the West coast from Bristol upwards whose fortunes derive from mid C19th "sugar merchants" and "cotton merchants" who weren't just trading those commodities; and even if they were, the cfommodities themselves were the product of slave labour.

    Date of Habeas Corpus is out by over 500 years.

    The NHS is one of many ways of organising health care, some others are better and others are worse. Clearly it has symbolism that appeals to all parties and both sides of Brexit. It is worth speculating why. In some other countries other organs take on similar unifying cultural significance. The flag, Constitution and military in the USA, the Catholic Church in Poland, the Royal family in Thailand, the language in France, etc. Often these too are quite recent.

    The NHS has significance because of its fundamental decency, in that all are entitled to the same level of treatment. Just this week, I have seen both a member of the HoL and a convicted murderer handcuffed to two guards in my clinic. Both got the same treatment. I think this chimes with the British sense of fair play, and a primitive sense of communiality that probably predated even the Anglo-Saxons.

    Coupled with this is a deep distrust of the profit motive in this context, both from a long history of communal self help in the working classes, and from a distrust of trade, and sense of noblesse oblige in the wealthier classes. Class relations are profound in Britain but usually not as bitter as our European neighbours. No tumbrils or gulags here. Our upper classes have survived where others perished because of this sense of social solidarity.

    The NHS is both a product of, and embodiment of, our collective cultural capital. As we know from Brexit, cultural issues trump economic ones. Other systems may have financial or even clinical advantages, but do not have the same unifying ability. Politicians mess with it at their peril.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 16,719
    Will someone tell Nick Timothy that his erstwhile boss is a Remainer?
  • PongPong Posts: 4,685
    edited February 7

    I loathe Nick Timothy more than I loathe Mark Reckless.

    He's a very very smart chap. As someone on the liberal left, I regard him as one of the most dangerous conservatives out there. All that was needed for his strategy to work, was for the party not to blink.

    They flunked it.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 2,546
    Foxy said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    I will never understand this fetishisation of a way of paying for medical services.

    The list is very odd. I would rank the Englishness of Shakespeare, Darwin, Newton and (by adoption) Rutherford streets ahead of any of that lot.

    The slavery thing has always perplexed me because it is so asymmetrical: starting and participating in the trade are thousands of times more evil, than abolishing it is good. And it's not as if we withdrew from it entirely: there's well-heeled families all up the West coast from Bristol upwards whose fortunes derive from mid C19th "sugar merchants" and "cotton merchants" who weren't just trading those commodities; and even if they were, the cfommodities themselves were the product of slave labour.

    Date of Habeas Corpus is out by over 500 years.

    The NHS is one of many ways of organising health care, some others are better and others are worse. Clearly it has symbolism that appeals to all parties and both sides of Brexit. It is worth speculating why. In some other countries other organs take on similar unifying cultural significance. The flag, Constitution and military in the USA, the Catholic Church in Poland, the Royal family in Thailand, the language in France, etc. Often these too are quite recent.

    The NHS has significance because of its fundamental decency, in that all are entitled to the same level of treatment. Just this week, I have seen both a member of the HoL and a convicted murderer handcuffed to two guards in my clinic. Both got the same treatment. I think this chimes with the British sense of fair play, and a primitive sense of communiality that probably predated even the Anglo-Saxons.

    Coupled with this is a deep distrust of the profit motive in this context, both from a long history of communal self help in the working classes, and from a distrust of trade, and sense of noblesse oblige in the wealthier classes. Class relations are profound in Britain but usually not as bitter as our European neighbours. No tumbrils or gulags here. Our upper classes have survived where others perished because of this sense of social solidarity.

    The NHS is both a product of, and embodiment of, our collective cultural capital. As we know from Brexit, cultural issues trump economic ones. Other systems may have financial or even clinical advantages, but do not have the same unifying ability. Politicians mess with it at their peril.

    Very well put. I'm going to save that.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 492

    I loathe Nick Timothy more than I loathe Mark Reckless.

    I don't understand why such a politically out of touch individual is given column inches in one of the main broadsheets. Theresa May's failure is his failure. As an adviser he was at the apex and he played a large part in throwing away an election the Tories could not lose!
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 20,289

    I think the differences that appear between Leave and Remain voters - which are not that big, as you say - are just side-effects of the differences in demographics in the referendum. Having a big empire is a more appealing thought for older conservatives than young lefties, legalisation of homosxuality the reverse, and older conservatives tended to vote Leave much more than young lefties.

    My 22 year old wife is literally unable to understand why I am proud that Britain kicked the shit out of every other country on earth, for about 300 years, and had the largest empire that was, and ever will be, and all this within living memory.

    This kinda stuff gives me THE HORN. We are THE warrior nation. Without peer. In terms of macho pride Britain is IT. We would have probably invaded the moon if we hadn't been too hungover. We WON.

    For her its a kind of madness.

    Pfff!
  • I loathe Nick Timothy more than I loathe Mark Reckless.

    I don't understand why such a politically out of touch individual is given column inches in one of the main broadsheets. Theresa May's failure is his failure. As an adviser he was at the apex and he played a large part in throwing away an election the Tories could not lose!
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 5,892

    @Jason_Keen: #Brexit Secretary @DavidDavisMP told #marr as recently as December that no sectoral impact assessments existed.

    Did he not know about these? Or have they only been done in the past six weeks? If so, who ordered them?

    Who cares
    The people whose jobs might be at risk?
    Project fear in spades and even you say might be
    Best Brexit quote so far IMO. At some point people will say, "do we really want to go through with this? Maybe Project Fear; maybe not, but clearly the government doesn't have a clue".

  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 9,296

    As I understand it 17 Labour Councillors are against the HDV.

    Under Labour rules because the Labour group agreed to proceed with the HDV by 20 to 17 if the 17 voted against it they would be automatically suspended by Labour for 6 months and therefore not able to stand in May 18 elections.

    Bigger picture most important the 17 plus 7 other Left Candidates (replacing 7 of the 20 Blairites) stand and win in May.
    But you again ignore the bullying and intimidation - I have no comment on the rights and wrongs of the decision but labour under Corbyn is becoming the nasty party
    And now they have voted to delay a decision until after May.

    What did you say earlier good on them.

    I do not make excuses for any bullying but there are 2 sides to this story some argue Clare Kober was bully in chief.
    You really need to accept labour are becoming the nasty party - there are more examples day by day
    The ability to hold your elective representatives to account is an important part of the democratic process.

    Those who think they are entitled to a job for life seem to have a problem with being held to as they havent been used to it seem to run to the MSM screaming BULLY.

    In my experience its the powerful that are the bullies not those challenging years of ineptitude.

    I do not support however anyone bullying, using sexist, rascist or homophobic language in challenging their Comrades.
This discussion has been closed.