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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Five CON holds & a gain + one LAB hold in this week’s local by

SystemSystem Posts: 3,967
edited February 9 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Five CON holds & a gain + one LAB hold in this week’s local by-elections

Hartside on Eden (Con defence) Result: Con 175 (53% -4% on last time) , Ind 98 (30% -13% on last time) , Green 58 (18%, no candidate last time) Conservative HOLD with a majority of 77 (13%) on a swing of 4.5% from Ind to Con

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Comments

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 5,487
    edited February 9
    Close but no cigar for us in Tophill East.

    Edit: And top spot on the PB Olympic podium for me!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 40,653
    Cheers for this, Mr. Hayfield.

    Mr. Rentool, there was a plan by Ecclestone to have gold medals for winning F1 races, with most wins over a season taking the title. Thankfully it never happened.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 40,653
    edited February 9
    Germany: sounds like (from Twitter) the SPD vote will be announced on 4th March.

    Edited extra bit: same day as the Italian election, incidentally.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 9,543
    Third like Boris
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 1,517
    I'd assumed this was a scare story and wouldn't actually happen when people predicted this very thing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 40,653
    Six Nations, annoyingly, the Ladbrokes price on France beating Scotland has lengthened slightly (don't know why).
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 20,877

    Close but no cigar for us in Tophill East.

    Edit: And top spot on the PB Olympic podium for me!

    Interesting post on the VoteUK forum:

    "The Tophill results are very unusual in that the Conservatives did better (relative to Labour) than the county elections last May - 873 votes to Labour's 710, whereas it was 995-923 in the county division contiguous with the two wards (Greens were the only other candidates in all cases). There was a sitting Labour councillor last year though, and the new Conservative councillor for Tophill West is the county council member."

    http://vote-2012.proboards.com/thread/10932/local-elections-february-8th-2018?page=5&scrollTo=610253
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 5,487

    I'd assumed this was a scare story and wouldn't actually happen when people predicted this very thing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals

    Isn't the real problem the large number of feckless Brits who sit watching Jeremy Kyle rather than putting in a day's graft?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 40,653
    Going back to Germany, if the SPD members back it, Merkel's guaranteed to be Chancellor, right?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 18,494
    The Tory vote remains remarkably solid despite the incessant incoming over Brexit. Personally I credit Corbyn.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 16,719
    DavidL said:

    The Tory vote remains remarkably solid despite the incessant incoming over Brexit. Personally I credit Corbyn.

    It’s the effect of having Anna Soubry on the telly. People can see there is another Tory party and they aren’t yet fully Bluekip.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 18,494

    I'd assumed this was a scare story and wouldn't actually happen when people predicted this very thing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals

    Isn't the real problem the large number of feckless Brits who sit watching Jeremy Kyle rather than putting in a day's graft?
    99% from eastern Europe and 0.6% from the UK. Its a national disgrace. Farmers prefer foreign workers because they are marshalled, reliable and, shamefully, less bothered by hard work. We must encourage them to develop local resources regardless of Brexit.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 2,673

    I'd assumed this was a scare story and wouldn't actually happen when people predicted this very thing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals

    I guess it is interesting to know what the normal shortfall of labour is in a normal year.

    There is a catch in that, however. There is no such thing as a normal year. We have this unknown factor in Agriculture, the weather. Soft fruit is especially sensitive to weather. Getting labour where and when you want it has always proved a challenge. I would be shocked to find any year going by without waste. Without wishing to cast aspersion on anyone, there is a lot of scope to use statistics to illustrate the point you want highlighted.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 18,494
    edited February 9

    DavidL said:

    The Tory vote remains remarkably solid despite the incessant incoming over Brexit. Personally I credit Corbyn.

    It’s the effect of having Anna Soubry on the telly. People can see there is another Tory party and they aren’t yet fully Bluekip.
    If you could find 1 person in a thousand who could pick Anna Soubry out in an ID parade I would be genuinely gobsmacked. I am not completely sure I could myself.

    Edit. Actually probably could have, having googled.
  • Ally_BAlly_B Posts: 179

    I'd assumed this was a scare story and wouldn't actually happen when people predicted this very thing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals

    Isn't the real problem the large number of feckless Brits who sit watching Jeremy Kyle rather than putting in a day's graft?
    Are there 'any' of them left? With UK unemployment are low levels one might think that migrant workers are a necessity to meet peak demand at harvest time.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 18,555

    I'd assumed this was a scare story and wouldn't actually happen when people predicted this very thing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals

    Isn't the real problem the large number of feckless Brits who sit watching Jeremy Kyle rather than putting in a day's graft?
    The real problem is all those pensioners with long experience of fruit-picking sitting watching Jeremy Kyle. Dock their pensions, I say.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 2,673
    DavidL said:

    I'd assumed this was a scare story and wouldn't actually happen when people predicted this very thing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals

    Isn't the real problem the large number of feckless Brits who sit watching Jeremy Kyle rather than putting in a day's graft?
    99% from eastern Europe and 0.6% from the UK. Its a national disgrace. Farmers prefer foreign workers because they are marshalled, reliable and, shamefully, less bothered by hard work. We must encourage them to develop local resources regardless of Brexit.
    You can't get young Brits to work in a field.
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 831

    Cheers for this, Mr. Hayfield.

    Mr. Rentool, there was a plan by Ecclestone to have gold medals for winning F1 races, with most wins over a season taking the title. Thankfully it never happened.

    Thought you were a fan of First Past the Post?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 16,719
    philiph said:

    DavidL said:

    I'd assumed this was a scare story and wouldn't actually happen when people predicted this very thing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals

    Isn't the real problem the large number of feckless Brits who sit watching Jeremy Kyle rather than putting in a day's graft?
    99% from eastern Europe and 0.6% from the UK. Its a national disgrace. Farmers prefer foreign workers because they are marshalled, reliable and, shamefully, less bothered by hard work. We must encourage them to develop local resources regardless of Brexit.
    You can't get young Brits to work in a field.
    Tell them it’s full of rare Pokemon.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 18,494
    Ally_B said:

    I'd assumed this was a scare story and wouldn't actually happen when people predicted this very thing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals

    Isn't the real problem the large number of feckless Brits who sit watching Jeremy Kyle rather than putting in a day's graft?
    Are there 'any' of them left? With UK unemployment are low levels one might think that migrant workers are a necessity to meet peak demand at harvest time.
    The Carse of Gowrie and Perthshire are probably the biggest fruit picking areas in Scotland. Unemployment in Dundee is currently 3,300.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 20,877

    I'd assumed this was a scare story and wouldn't actually happen when people predicted this very thing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals

    How were these jobs done before large numbers of migrant workers started doing them?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 40,653
    Mr. tpfkar, General Elections tend not to occur in 21 rounds.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,993
    philiph said:

    I'd assumed this was a scare story and wouldn't actually happen when people predicted this very thing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals

    I guess it is interesting to know what the normal shortfall of labour is in a normal year.

    There is a catch in that, however. There is no such thing as a normal year. We have this unknown factor in Agriculture, the weather. Soft fruit is especially sensitive to weather. Getting labour where and when you want it has always proved a challenge. I would be shocked to find any year going by without waste. Without wishing to cast aspersion on anyone, there is a lot of scope to use statistics to illustrate the point you want highlighted.
    A useful calibration would be whether there were shortages of these British agricultural products or associated price hikes. If not then one ronders who was going to eat this food in the first place.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 18,494

    philiph said:

    I'd assumed this was a scare story and wouldn't actually happen when people predicted this very thing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals

    I guess it is interesting to know what the normal shortfall of labour is in a normal year.

    There is a catch in that, however. There is no such thing as a normal year. We have this unknown factor in Agriculture, the weather. Soft fruit is especially sensitive to weather. Getting labour where and when you want it has always proved a challenge. I would be shocked to find any year going by without waste. Without wishing to cast aspersion on anyone, there is a lot of scope to use statistics to illustrate the point you want highlighted.
    A useful calibration would be whether there were shortages of these British agricultural products or associated price hikes. If not then one ronders who was going to eat this food in the first place.
    That is undoubtedly part of the problem. In reality if the farmers were to get Brits to do this somewhat unattractive work they would have to pay them more and the price of internationally traded crops makes that uneconomic.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 6,489
    philiph said:

    I'd assumed this was a scare story and wouldn't actually happen when people predicted this very thing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals

    I guess it is interesting to know what the normal shortfall of labour is in a normal year.

    There is a catch in that, however. There is no such thing as a normal year. We have this unknown factor in Agriculture, the weather. Soft fruit is especially sensitive to weather. Getting labour where and when you want it has always proved a challenge. I would be shocked to find any year going by without waste. Without wishing to cast aspersion on anyone, there is a lot of scope to use statistics to illustrate the point you want highlighted.
    Right, on to my soapbox.

    Whilst the detail of the report is challengeable, the point is not. There will be a labour shortage for labour-intensive parts of the agriculture industry, fruit and veg picking being a good example.

    For too long the industry has been dependent on seasonal workers, on pay that only makes sense if you shuttle between countries such that you save in England and spend in (mainly) Eastern Europe. That was an unsustainable arbitrage, Brexit or no Brexit.

    It encouraged a number of satellite problems to develop, including cramped, "temporary" housing, gangmasters, and an almost invisible workforce. Tuberculosis made a return to rural areas. It stifled technology. It drove an idea that immigration was not high, but uncontrolled.

    The result, in terms of food cost, has been entirely internalised, such that the public would now see £1 cucumbers as expensive, rather than the 50p existing cucumbers very cheap.

    It must end and I hope that we take this opportunity, even it means temporary pain.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 2,673
    edited February 9
    AndyJS said:

    I'd assumed this was a scare story and wouldn't actually happen when people predicted this very thing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals

    How were these jobs done before large numbers of migrant workers started doing them?
    We used to import more Strawberries.

    All sorts of interesting bits in here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18490749 (although it dates to 2012):
    eg
    In 2006, as a result of complaints led by Polish growers, a 34.2% tariff was implemented by the EU on frozen Chinese strawberries.

    and

    Despite a 45% increase in production in the UK with 4,969 hectares of strawberries grown in 2011, Britain still relies on imports from Spain, Israel, Morocco, Egypt to meet growing consumer demand for fresh berries for the rest of the year.
    Twenty years ago British strawberry season lasted for six weeks, but now it runs for six months, says Laurence Olins.
    Now 90% of British crops are now grown in polytunnels, safeguarding what was previously seen as an unreliable crop due to its poor tolerance of disease and bad weather.


    However with the reduction in the range of fungicides available, growing Strawberries in a cool humid environment is more challenging than a few years ago.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 12,561
    philiph said:

    DavidL said:

    I'd assumed this was a scare story and wouldn't actually happen when people predicted this very thing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals

    Isn't the real problem the large number of feckless Brits who sit watching Jeremy Kyle rather than putting in a day's graft?
    99% from eastern Europe and 0.6% from the UK. Its a national disgrace. Farmers prefer foreign workers because they are marshalled, reliable and, shamefully, less bothered by hard work. We must encourage them to develop local resources regardless of Brexit.
    You can't get young Brits to work in a field.
    Why not?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 10,845
    DavidL said:

    Ally_B said:

    I'd assumed this was a scare story and wouldn't actually happen when people predicted this very thing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals

    Isn't the real problem the large number of feckless Brits who sit watching Jeremy Kyle rather than putting in a day's graft?
    Are there 'any' of them left? With UK unemployment are low levels one might think that migrant workers are a necessity to meet peak demand at harvest time.
    The Carse of Gowrie and Perthshire are probably the biggest fruit picking areas in Scotland. Unemployment in Dundee is currently 3,300.
    Tbf requirement for fruit pickers is currently 0.
  • philiph said:

    DavidL said:

    I'd assumed this was a scare story and wouldn't actually happen when people predicted this very thing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals

    Isn't the real problem the large number of feckless Brits who sit watching Jeremy Kyle rather than putting in a day's graft?
    99% from eastern Europe and 0.6% from the UK. Its a national disgrace. Farmers prefer foreign workers because they are marshalled, reliable and, shamefully, less bothered by hard work. We must encourage them to develop local resources regardless of Brexit.
    You can't get young Brits to work in a field.
    Why not?
    The areas where the picking takes place has next to nothing in terms of mobile signal coverage.

    Asking the youth of today to be where there’s no 4G signal is akin to torture.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 18,494

    DavidL said:

    Ally_B said:

    I'd assumed this was a scare story and wouldn't actually happen when people predicted this very thing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals

    Isn't the real problem the large number of feckless Brits who sit watching Jeremy Kyle rather than putting in a day's graft?
    Are there 'any' of them left? With UK unemployment are low levels one might think that migrant workers are a necessity to meet peak demand at harvest time.
    The Carse of Gowrie and Perthshire are probably the biggest fruit picking areas in Scotland. Unemployment in Dundee is currently 3,300.
    Tbf requirement for fruit pickers is currently 0.
    True, but the descriptions given by others of guest workers provided with accommodation by farmers but organised by gang masters etc is spot on. I don't expect this year to be any different. There are a lot of reasons to be concerned about this, not just underemployed Brits.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 2,673

    philiph said:

    I'd assumed this was a scare story and wouldn't actually happen when people predicted this very thing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals

    I guess it is interesting to know what the normal shortfall of labour is in a normal year.

    There is a catch in that, however. There is no such thing as a normal year. We have this unknown factor in Agriculture, the weather. Soft fruit is especially sensitive to weather. Getting labour where and when you want it has always proved a challenge. I would be shocked to find any year going by without waste. Without wishing to cast aspersion on anyone, there is a lot of scope to use statistics to illustrate the point you want highlighted.
    Right, on to my soapbox.

    Whilst the detail of the report is challengeable, the point is not. There will be a labour shortage for labour-intensive parts of the agriculture industry, fruit and veg picking being a good example.

    For too long the industry has been dependent on seasonal workers, on pay that only makes sense if you shuttle between countries such that you save in England and spend in (mainly) Eastern Europe. That was an unsustainable arbitrage, Brexit or no Brexit.

    It encouraged a number of satellite problems to develop, including cramped, "temporary" housing, gangmasters, and an almost invisible workforce. Tuberculosis made a return to rural areas. It stifled technology. It drove an idea that immigration was not high, but uncontrolled.

    The result, in terms of food cost, has been entirely internalised, such that the public would now see £1 cucumbers as expensive, rather than the 50p existing cucumbers very cheap.

    It must end and I hope that we take this opportunity, even it means temporary pain.
    I wouldn't argue with your soap box.

    However, it is an international issue.
    California couldn't produce food without Mexican labour for example.
    UK requires cheaper EU labour. If you go back to the 1960s pre EEC there were lots of Italians employed in the sector.

    The real dichotomy is between Rich country and Poor(er) countries. In the rich country your expectations are higher. Comfort, regular employment, a higher standard of living etc. The indigenous population of a rich country will inevitably attract poorer people to do the unpopular and menial tasks. This applies to immigration here from the 1950s onwards, in Australia it happens, in USA it happens, it even happens in Poland where imported labour fills in at the bottom of the scale filling the places vacated by the Polish labour emigrating elsewhere.

    Probably there are two ways to end it. Minimum wage of 25k pa or equivalent or banning immigration.

    Both are not practical.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 1,641
    DavidL said:

    I'd assumed this was a scare story and wouldn't actually happen when people predicted this very thing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals

    Isn't the real problem the large number of feckless Brits who sit watching Jeremy Kyle rather than putting in a day's graft?
    99% from eastern Europe and 0.6% from the UK. Its a national disgrace. Farmers prefer foreign workers because they are marshalled, reliable and, shamefully, less bothered by hard work. We must encourage them to develop local resources regardless of Brexit.
    Come now David. Why would a Brexiteer be concerned that some of our farms are staffed almost entirely with poorly-paid Slavs? Don’t you just want to kick them all out?
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 4,201
    Strawberry pulling is a relatively cushy number, but it is always susceptible to the weather. We get wastage every year. If you get a wet week, you'll lose a proportion of your crop.

    My worst ever job working on the land? Being dropped off by the van to pick sprout stalks out of pig-shit. Sandwiches to eat at midday and the nearest washing facilities about three miles away. Fortunately, you lose your sense of smell after a few minutes.

    Mind you, this was the 1960s. European immigrants? Pah! They don't know they're born. And as for those four Yorkshiremen ... luxury.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 40,653
    Mr. H, I'm not advocating this, but there is a third option: criminal labour.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 20,010
    Overall, the Conservatives have won 13 out of 19 contests this year, a net gain of two.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 10,845
    Nice protected status exports you've got there, shame if anything happened to them.



  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 26,048
    I believe this may be of interest to some PBers...

    The world's weirdest pizza toppings for National Pizza Day

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/food-and-drink/news/mac-n-cheese-brussels-sprouts-worlds-controversial-pizzas/
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 4,201
    Mr Blue,

    "Come now David. Why would a Brexiteer be concerned that some of our farms are staffed almost entirely with poorly-paid Slavs? Don’t you just want to kick them all out?"

    Coming over here and working long hours for low wages. I understand why the farmers approve, but why would the Labour Party? Weren't they fans of the Tolpuddle martyrs? Local agricultural labourers wanting to put up the price of food by earning more.

    Or are they the locals the wrong sort of land workers?
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 2,673

    philiph said:

    DavidL said:

    I'd assumed this was a scare story and wouldn't actually happen when people predicted this very thing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals

    Isn't the real problem the large number of feckless Brits who sit watching Jeremy Kyle rather than putting in a day's graft?
    99% from eastern Europe and 0.6% from the UK. Its a national disgrace. Farmers prefer foreign workers because they are marshalled, reliable and, shamefully, less bothered by hard work. We must encourage them to develop local resources regardless of Brexit.
    You can't get young Brits to work in a field.
    Why not?
    Firstly many of the jobs are seasonal.

    However, for those where the work is full time, very few companies involved in field work in Horticulture / Agriculture can recruit UK born labourers. College educated in the subject in non labourer posts,yes.

    Place an advert in the Midlands for employees as labourers and don't expect many responses. Even if the rewards are above the industry averages, you won't get inundated with applications.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 20,010

    I'd assumed this was a scare story and wouldn't actually happen when people predicted this very thing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals

    There are swings and roundabouts. As the number of seasonal workers has fallen, so have real wages for agricultural workers increased.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 18,467
    Sean_F said:

    Overall, the Conservatives have won 13 out of 19 contests this year, a net gain of two.

    Whilst it's only local elections, not representative of a GE, etc, etc, it is an interesting statistic. Labour should be miles ahead.

    (It would be interesting to compare with similar stages in other electoral cycles, e.g. 2011, 2006, 2002, 1998 etc. How were the parties doing in local elections six to nine months after a GE?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,993
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Ally_B said:

    I'd assumed this was a scare story and wouldn't actually happen when people predicted this very thing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals

    Isn't the real problem the large number of feckless Brits who sit watching Jeremy Kyle rather than putting in a day's graft?
    Are there 'any' of them left? With UK unemployment are low levels one might think that migrant workers are a necessity to meet peak demand at harvest time.
    The Carse of Gowrie and Perthshire are probably the biggest fruit picking areas in Scotland. Unemployment in Dundee is currently 3,300.
    Tbf requirement for fruit pickers is currently 0.
    True, but the descriptions given by others of guest workers provided with accommodation by farmers but organised by gang masters etc is spot on. I don't expect this year to be any different. There are a lot of reasons to be concerned about this, not just underemployed Brits.
    But the answer to that is not to limit or ban guest workers. It is to deal with the underlying criminal or antisocial practices. We don't ban cars because people speed or get drunk behind the wheel. Or because they use them to commit bank robberies.

    If we fully accepted guest workers as part of our ecomomy, made it as easy as possible for them to come here to work but at the same time clamped down properly on gang masters and on employers who circumvent rules for he sake of cut price labour then I would be very hard pressed to think of a valid reason for objecting to their presence
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 20,010

    Sean_F said:

    Overall, the Conservatives have won 13 out of 19 contests this year, a net gain of two.

    Whilst it's only local elections, not representative of a GE, etc, etc, it is an interesting statistic. Labour should be miles ahead.

    (It would be interesting to compare with similar stages in other electoral cycles, e.g. 2011, 2006, 2002, 1998 etc. How were the parties doing in local elections six to nine months after a GE?
    TBH, I don't think anything less than a quarter's results would tell you all that much.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 18,555
    I had previously foreseen that the solution preferred by Leavers would be self-picking fruit. I was not far-sighted enough. It seems that Leavers' preferred solution is not to want fruit at all.
  • I believe this may be of interest to some PBers...

    The world's weirdest pizza toppings for National Pizza Day

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/food-and-drink/news/mac-n-cheese-brussels-sprouts-worlds-controversial-pizzas/

    No wonder the country voted for Brexit, we are a nation bereft of good taste.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 1,641
    CD13 said:

    Mr Blue,

    "Come now David. Why would a Brexiteer be concerned that some of our farms are staffed almost entirely with poorly-paid Slavs? Don’t you just want to kick them all out?"

    Coming over here and working long hours for low wages. I understand why the farmers approve, but why would the Labour Party? Weren't they fans of the Tolpuddle martyrs? Local agricultural labourers wanting to put up the price of food by earning more.

    Or are they the locals the wrong sort of land workers?

    Party of public sector metropolitan middle classes not that fussed about private sector rural working classes. Shocking, isn’t it?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 16,116
    4% for the LibDems - in Brighton? Looks like their vote has been sold to Labour on a 999 year lease.....
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 5,487

    I believe this may be of interest to some PBers...

    The world's weirdest pizza toppings for National Pizza Day

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/food-and-drink/news/mac-n-cheese-brussels-sprouts-worlds-controversial-pizzas/

    The Telegraph, The Telegraph, referring to macaroni cheese as "Mac’N’Cheese". This is truly the end of days.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 399

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Ally_B said:

    I'd assumed this was a scare story and wouldn't actually happen when people predicted this very thing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals

    Isn't the real problem the large number of feckless Brits who sit watching Jeremy Kyle rather than putting in a day's graft?
    Are there 'any' of them left? With UK unemployment are low levels one might think that migrant workers are a necessity to meet peak demand at harvest time.
    The Carse of Gowrie and Perthshire are probably the biggest fruit picking areas in Scotland. Unemployment in Dundee is currently 3,300.
    Tbf requirement for fruit pickers is currently 0.
    True, but the descriptions given by others of guest workers provided with accommodation by farmers but organised by gang masters etc is spot on. I don't expect this year to be any different. There are a lot of reasons to be concerned about this, not just underemployed Brits.
    But the answer to that is not to limit or ban guest workers. It is to deal with the underlying criminal or antisocial practices. We don't ban cars because people speed or get drunk behind the wheel. Or because they use them to commit bank robberies.

    If we fully accepted guest workers as part of our ecomomy, made it as easy as possible for them to come here to work but at the same time clamped down properly on gang masters and on employers who circumvent rules for he sake of cut price labour then I would be very hard pressed to think of a valid reason for objecting to their presence
    Guest workers are always going to be ripe for exploitation. The only reason anyone brings them in is to get them to do jobs with pay and conditions below what British people can tolerate. If you're going to put up the pay and conditions to British standards, then British people would acvept the jobs and there's no need for the guest scheme.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 1,641

    I had previously foreseen that the solution preferred by Leavers would be self-picking fruit. I was not far-sighted enough. It seems that Leavers' preferred solution is not to want fruit at all.

    We have no room in our stomachs after the kebabs, pizzas and battered sausages we’ve eaten on the way to the tattoo parlour.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 399
    RoyalBlue said:

    DavidL said:

    I'd assumed this was a scare story and wouldn't actually happen when people predicted this very thing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals

    Isn't the real problem the large number of feckless Brits who sit watching Jeremy Kyle rather than putting in a day's graft?
    99% from eastern Europe and 0.6% from the UK. Its a national disgrace. Farmers prefer foreign workers because they are marshalled, reliable and, shamefully, less bothered by hard work. We must encourage them to develop local resources regardless of Brexit.
    Come now David. Why would a Brexiteer be concerned that some of our farms are staffed almost entirely with poorly-paid Slavs? Don’t you just want to kick them all out?
    Which prominent Brexiteers have supported kicking all the immigrants out? Like the hankering for Empire rubbish, it's a lie that Remainers use because they have lost the argument.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 9,543

    4% for the LibDems - in Brighton? Looks like their vote has been sold to Labour on a 999 year lease.....

    It could have been so different, had the Tories had the insight to put their long-term strategic interests ahead of short term opportunism during the coalition years.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 1,641
    Elliot said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    DavidL said:

    I'd assumed this was a scare story and wouldn't actually happen when people predicted this very thing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals

    Isn't the real problem the large number of feckless Brits who sit watching Jeremy Kyle rather than putting in a day's graft?
    99% from eastern Europe and 0.6% from the UK. Its a national disgrace. Farmers prefer foreign workers because they are marshalled, reliable and, shamefully, less bothered by hard work. We must encourage them to develop local resources regardless of Brexit.
    Come now David. Why would a Brexiteer be concerned that some of our farms are staffed almost entirely with poorly-paid Slavs? Don’t you just want to kick them all out?
    Which prominent Brexiteers have supported kicking all the immigrants out? Like the hankering for Empire rubbish, it's a lie that Remainers use because they have lost the argument.
    It was a joke, my fellow Brexiteer.

    It’s sad you thought it was genuine though :disappointed:
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 40,653
    Mr. P, not sure that's Davis pouring on petrol as observing that fire is hot.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 20,010
    IanB2 said:

    4% for the LibDems - in Brighton? Looks like their vote has been sold to Labour on a 999 year lease.....

    It could have been so different, had the Tories had the insight to put their long-term strategic interests ahead of short term opportunism during the coalition years.
    Instead of absorbing the Lib Dems, like the National Liberals, the Conservatives absorbed their voters.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 16,116
    IanB2 said:

    4% for the LibDems - in Brighton? Looks like their vote has been sold to Labour on a 999 year lease.....

    It could have been so different, had the Tories had the insight to put their long-term strategic interests ahead of short term opportunism during the coalition years.
    They could have saved their deposit you mean?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 18,555
    RoyalBlue said:

    I had previously foreseen that the solution preferred by Leavers would be self-picking fruit. I was not far-sighted enough. It seems that Leavers' preferred solution is not to want fruit at all.

    We have no room in our stomachs after the kebabs, pizzas and battered sausages we’ve eaten on the way to the tattoo parlour.
    Kebabs sound suspiciously Turkish.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 17,646
    Completely O/T, but I haven't been able to find the answer anywhere else, and PB is a great repository of expertise: If you have a company which is wound up, with funds available to be distributed to shareholders, what happens if some of the shareholders are untraceable? Presumably the money has to be held somewhere in case they turn up, but where? And what happens if they never turn up?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 16,116
    Got a lady in your life, bereft at the prospect of a dark blue passport cover?

    Worry not. (Although, your bank might.....)

    http://www.tiffany.co.uk/accessories/tiffany-leather-collection/passport-cover-GRP09836?fromGrid=1&origin=browse&trackpdp=bg&tracktile=new&fromcid=3782005&trackgridpos=112
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 20,877
    Sean_F said:

    Overall, the Conservatives have won 13 out of 19 contests this year, a net gain of two.

    Includes two elections in Codsall, which is one of the most Conservative places in the country.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 4,201
    edited February 9
    Mr Tyndall,

    "but at the same time clamped down properly on gang masters "

    It must be those dastardly foreign gangers nowadays.

    I worked on the land from 1963 to 1967 during my school holidays at Easter and Summer, and at night after school from early April onwards. Driven to the field by the local ganger. He was even there picking those shitty sprout stems along with his teenage son.

    To be fair to him, that was a one-off job. The idiot farmer hadn't allowed enough time for the composting to work before spreading it.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 16,116

    RoyalBlue said:

    I had previously foreseen that the solution preferred by Leavers would be self-picking fruit. I was not far-sighted enough. It seems that Leavers' preferred solution is not to want fruit at all.

    We have no room in our stomachs after the kebabs, pizzas and battered sausages we’ve eaten on the way to the tattoo parlour.
    Kebabs sound suspiciously Turkish.
    Kebabs? Turkish? Yer 'avin' a .....Turkish, aintcher?

    Finest produce of N16, yer kebab, innit?
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 1,641

    Completely O/T, but I haven't been able to find the answer anywhere else, and PB is a great repository of expertise: If you have a company which is wound up, with funds available to be distributed to shareholders, what happens if some of the shareholders are untraceable? Presumably the money has to be held somewhere in case they turn up, but where? And what happens if they never turn up?

    It would depend on the jurisdiction and whether the company was public or private. I know a little about rules for unclaimed dividends, but sadly I suspect they are different than for share capital.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 1,641

    RoyalBlue said:

    I had previously foreseen that the solution preferred by Leavers would be self-picking fruit. I was not far-sighted enough. It seems that Leavers' preferred solution is not to want fruit at all.

    We have no room in our stomachs after the kebabs, pizzas and battered sausages we’ve eaten on the way to the tattoo parlour.
    Kebabs sound suspiciously Turkish.
    Cyprus (including the Northern part) was part of the Empire. That makes it OK.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,993
    Elliot said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Ally_B said:

    I'd assumed this was a scare story and wouldn't actually happen when people predicted this very thing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals

    Isn't the real problem the large number of feckless Brits who sit watching Jeremy Kyle rather than putting in a day's graft?
    Are there 'any' of them left? With UK unemployment are low levels one might think that migrant workers are a necessity to meet peak demand at harvest time.
    The Carse of Gowrie and Perthshire are probably the biggest fruit picking areas in Scotland. Unemployment in Dundee is currently 3,300.
    Tbf requirement for fruit pickers is currently 0.
    True, but the descriptions given by others of guest workers provided with accommodation by farmers but organised by gang masters etc is spot on. I don't expect this year to be any different. There are a lot of reasons to be concerned about this, not just underemployed Brits.
    But the answer to that is not to limit or ban guest workers. It is to deal with the underlying criminal or antisocial practices. We don't ban cars because people speed or get drunk behind the wheel. Or because they use them to commit bank robberies.

    If we fully accepted guest workers as part of our ecomomy, made it as easy as possible for them to come here to work but at the same time clamped down properly on gang masters and on employers who circumvent rules for he sake of cut price labour then I would be very hard pressed to think of a valid reason for objecting to their presence
    Guest workers are always going to be ripe for exploitation. The only reason anyone brings them in is to get them to do jobs with pay and conditions below what British people can tolerate. If you're going to put up the pay and conditions to British standards, then British people would acvept the jobs and there's no need for the guest scheme.
    I disagree. The vast majority of farmers abide by the rules and pay the minimum wage. I know plenty who pay a premium over and above that for experienced workers who come back year after year. The standards are not the problem. It is the fact that British youth are too often jot willing to actually work for a living and they are rewarded for that through our social security system.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 17,646

    I disagree. The vast majority of farmers abide by the rules and pay the minimum wage. I know plenty who pay a premium over and above that for experienced workers who come back year after year. The standards are not the problem. It is the fact that British youth are too often jot willing to actually work for a living and they are rewarded for that through our social security system.

    I suspect that part of the problem is that a hardworking young Brit would reasonably enough want a permanent job, not a seasonal job.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 4,201
    Mr Tyndall,

    "British youth are too often jot willing to actually work for a living and they are rewarded for that through our social security system."

    There may be truth in that, but if I were sixteen again and presented with modern days options now, I might be tempted to look elsewhere too.

    Says he, trying not to sound like an old git ... "Them young 'uns, don't know they're born nowadays."

  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 3,523

    rkrkrk said:

    Pong said:

    This is what really puzzles me;

    Pretty much everything that should have happened in the period between TM becoming PM & the triggering of A50, didn't happen.

    None of the necessary planning was done.

    Executive dysfunction. And that was before the Tories lost their majority.

    Why? What was the point in waiting, doing nothing, and then triggering A50?

    I think you’re underestimating the scale of the task. Made doubly tricky by a divided government.

    The civil servants needed more time - but the Brexiteers weren’t prepared to wait for A50 any longer.

    " but the Brexiteers weren’t prepared to wait for A50 any longer. "

    Rubbish. The EU refused to begin negotiation under A50 was enacted.

    They did refuse to begin negotiations. That’s true.

    Having been refused, it does seem an error though to start a timer running when you’re not ready.
    Why did May do that? Because the Brexiteers were impatient and wanted to get on with it!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 18,494

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Ally_B said:

    I'd assumed this was a scare story and wouldn't actually happen when people predicted this very thing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals

    Isn't the real problem the large number of feckless Brits who sit watching Jeremy Kyle rather than putting in a day's graft?
    Are there 'any' of them left? With UK unemployment are low levels one might think that migrant workers are a necessity to meet peak demand at harvest time.
    The Carse of Gowrie and Perthshire are probably the biggest fruit picking areas in Scotland. Unemployment in Dundee is currently 3,300.
    Tbf requirement for fruit pickers is currently 0.
    True, but the descriptions given by others of guest workers provided with accommodation by farmers but organised by gang masters etc is spot on. I don't expect this year to be any different. There are a lot of reasons to be concerned about this, not just underemployed Brits.
    But the answer to that is not to limit or ban guest workers. It is to deal with the underlying criminal or antisocial practices. We don't ban cars because people speed or get drunk behind the wheel. Or because they use them to commit bank robberies.

    If we fully accepted guest workers as part of our ecomomy, made it as easy as possible for them to come here to work but at the same time clamped down properly on gang masters and on employers who circumvent rules for he sake of cut price labour then I would be very hard pressed to think of a valid reason for objecting to their presence
    Provided our own youth had equal opportunities to obtain the employment I would agree with you. But they don't at the moment. Farmers would far rather deal with 1 gang master promising them 50 workers than try to employ locally. It is also the case that the guest workers undercut what would otherwise be the going rate for the work.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 16,116
    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Pong said:

    This is what really puzzles me;

    Pretty much everything that should have happened in the period between TM becoming PM & the triggering of A50, didn't happen.

    None of the necessary planning was done.

    Executive dysfunction. And that was before the Tories lost their majority.

    Why? What was the point in waiting, doing nothing, and then triggering A50?

    I think you’re underestimating the scale of the task. Made doubly tricky by a divided government.

    The civil servants needed more time - but the Brexiteers weren’t prepared to wait for A50 any longer.

    " but the Brexiteers weren’t prepared to wait for A50 any longer. "

    Rubbish. The EU refused to begin negotiation under A50 was enacted.

    They did refuse to begin negotiations. That’s true.

    Having been refused, it does seem an error though to start a timer running when you’re not ready.
    Why did May do that? Because the Brexiteers were impatient and wanted to get on with it!
    Rather than Brexiteers, wasn't it more a case of industry screaming "WTF is going on???"

    That'll larn 'em!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 18,494

    RoyalBlue said:

    I had previously foreseen that the solution preferred by Leavers would be self-picking fruit. I was not far-sighted enough. It seems that Leavers' preferred solution is not to want fruit at all.

    We have no room in our stomachs after the kebabs, pizzas and battered sausages we’ve eaten on the way to the tattoo parlour.
    Kebabs sound suspiciously Turkish.
    Kebabs? Turkish? Yer 'avin' a .....Turkish, aintcher?

    Finest produce of N16, yer kebab, innit?
    The new shop in Dundee are advertising German kebabs. I think the selling point is that their kitchens and shop look spotless which some others, err, don't. I understand the owners are second or third generation Turks from Germany.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 3,523

    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Pong said:

    This is what really puzzles me;

    Pretty much everything that should have happened in the period between TM becoming PM & the triggering of A50, didn't happen.

    None of the necessary planning was done.

    Executive dysfunction. And that was before the Tories lost their majority.

    Why? What was the point in waiting, doing nothing, and then triggering A50?

    I think you’re underestimating the scale of the task. Made doubly tricky by a divided government.

    The civil servants needed more time - but the Brexiteers weren’t prepared to wait for A50 any longer.

    " but the Brexiteers weren’t prepared to wait for A50 any longer. "

    Rubbish. The EU refused to begin negotiation under A50 was enacted.

    They did refuse to begin negotiations. That’s true.

    Having been refused, it does seem an error though to start a timer running when you’re not ready.
    Why did May do that? Because the Brexiteers were impatient and wanted to get on with it!
    Rather than Brexiteers, wasn't it more a case of industry screaming "WTF is going on???"

    That'll larn 'em!
    I think industry are more concerned by a potential no deal and the current government confusion.
    I don’t recall them being in a rush to get a50 announced.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 18,494

    Completely O/T, but I haven't been able to find the answer anywhere else, and PB is a great repository of expertise: If you have a company which is wound up, with funds available to be distributed to shareholders, what happens if some of the shareholders are untraceable? Presumably the money has to be held somewhere in case they turn up, but where? And what happens if they never turn up?

    I take it that it is a solvent voluntary winding up? In company takeovers the seller sometimes takes out an insurance policy to cover the possibility that very small untraceable shareholders turn up so I can't see why whoever is dealing with the distribution here couldn't do something similar.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 18,555

    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Pong said:

    This is what really puzzles me;

    Pretty much everything that should have happened in the period between TM becoming PM & the triggering of A50, didn't happen.

    None of the necessary planning was done.

    Executive dysfunction. And that was before the Tories lost their majority.

    Why? What was the point in waiting, doing nothing, and then triggering A50?

    I think you’re underestimating the scale of the task. Made doubly tricky by a divided government.

    The civil servants needed more time - but the Brexiteers weren’t prepared to wait for A50 any longer.

    " but the Brexiteers weren’t prepared to wait for A50 any longer. "

    Rubbish. The EU refused to begin negotiation under A50 was enacted.

    They did refuse to begin negotiations. That’s true.

    Having been refused, it does seem an error though to start a timer running when you’re not ready.
    Why did May do that? Because the Brexiteers were impatient and wanted to get on with it!
    Rather than Brexiteers, wasn't it more a case of industry screaming "WTF is going on???"

    That'll larn 'em!
    The headline on the Mail when the High Court held that Article 50 needed Parliamentary process was "ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE" not "ENEMIES OF THE CBI".
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 5,892
    edited February 9
    A dull set of by-election results. One safe Labour seat becomes more so. Three safe Conservative seats less so. An independent drops out of a further seat, allowing second placed Conservatives to come through on a relatively smaller vote share. So goodish for Labour; baddish for the Tories despite gaining a seat and overall meh.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,993
    CD13 said:

    Mr Tyndall,

    "British youth are too often jot willing to actually work for a living and they are rewarded for that through our social security system."

    There may be truth in that, but if I were sixteen again and presented with modern days options now, I might be tempted to look elsewhere too.

    Says he, trying not to sound like an old git ... "Them young 'uns, don't know they're born nowadays."

    That's a fair enough point. But the idea that we have so many guest workers because farmers exploit them as was claimed below is rubbish. We have them because we do not have the people willing to do all the basic wage and menial jobs that need doing. The idea that you solve this by increasing the wages paid is facile. They are low paid jobs because they are low value jobs and wecate consumers are not willing to pay more for them or for the products they provide.

    It is all part of the underlying problem in the UK that we have moved from pushing equality of opportunity to pushing equality of outcomes. We no longer tell kids that evetyyone should have the same opportunities. We now tell them that everyone should have the same rewards. So no one wants to be a bus driver or a bin man. No one wants to spend the summer picking fruit when they can spend it on an internship or a gap year holiday. Not every one can be a computer game designer and the sooner they realise that the better

    Apologies for the sweeping statements. Obviously this doesn't apply to everyome. But it does apply to a significant number of people.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,993
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Ally_B said:

    I'd assumed this was a scare story and wouldn't actually happen when people predicted this very thing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals

    Isn't the real problem the large number of feckless Brits who sit watching Jeremy Kyle rather than putting in a day's graft?
    Are there 'any' of them left? With UK unemployment are low levels one might think that migrant workers are a necessity to meet peak demand at harvest time.
    The Carse of Gowrie and Perthshire are probably the biggest fruit picking areas in Scotland. Unemployment in Dundee is currently 3,300.
    Tbf requirement for fruit pickers is currently 0.
    True, but the descriptions given by others of guest workers provided with accommodation by farmers but organised by gang masters etc is spot on. I don't expect this year to be any different. There are a lot of reasons to be concerned about this, not just underemployed Brits.
    But the answer to that is not to limit or ban guest workers. It is to deal with the underlying criminal or antisocial practices. We don't ban cars because people speed or get drunk behind the wheel. Or because they use them to commit bank robberies.

    If we fully accepted guest workers as part of our ecomomy, made it as easy as possible for them to come here to work but at the same time clamped down properly on gang masters and on employers who circumvent rules for he sake of cut price labour then I would be very hard pressed to think of a valid reason for objecting to their presence
    Provided our own youth had equal opportunities to obtain the employment I would agree with you. But they don't at the moment. Farmers would far rather deal with 1 gang master promising them 50 workers than try to employ locally. It is also the case that the guest workers undercut what would otherwise be the going rate for the work.
    I would really like to see the evidence for that last assertion.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 17,646
    DavidL said:

    Completely O/T, but I haven't been able to find the answer anywhere else, and PB is a great repository of expertise: If you have a company which is wound up, with funds available to be distributed to shareholders, what happens if some of the shareholders are untraceable? Presumably the money has to be held somewhere in case they turn up, but where? And what happens if they never turn up?

    I take it that it is a solvent voluntary winding up? In company takeovers the seller sometimes takes out an insurance policy to cover the possibility that very small untraceable shareholders turn up so I can't see why whoever is dealing with the distribution here couldn't do something similar.
    Yes, a solvent voluntary job. My puzzle is that there is no-one left to hold the potential liability, and indeed the asset to meet that liability.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 18,494

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Ally_B said:

    I'd assumed this was a scare story and wouldn't actually happen when people predicted this very thing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals

    Isn't the real problem the large number of feckless Brits who sit watching Jeremy Kyle rather than putting in a day's graft?
    Are there 'any' of them left? With UK unemployment are low levels one might think that migrant workers are a necessity to meet peak demand at harvest time.
    The Carse of Gowrie and Perthshire are probably the biggest fruit picking areas in Scotland. Unemployment in Dundee is currently 3,300.
    Tbf requirement for fruit pickers is currently 0.
    True, but the descriptions given by others of guest workers provided with accommodation by farmers but organised by gang masters etc is spot on. I don't expect this year to be any different. There are a lot of reasons to be concerned about this, not just underemployed Brits.
    But the answer to that is not to limit or ban guest workers. It is to deal with the underlying criminal or antisocial practices. We don't ban cars because people speed or get drunk behind the wheel. Or because they use them to commit bank robberies.

    If we fully accepted guest workers as part of our ecomomy, made it as easy as possible for them to come here to work but at the same time clamped down properly on gang masters and on employers who circumvent rules for he sake of cut price labour then I would be very hard pressed to think of a valid reason for objecting to their presence
    Provided our own youth had equal opportunities to obtain the employment I would agree with you. But they don't at the moment. Farmers would far rather deal with 1 gang master promising them 50 workers than try to employ locally. It is also the case that the guest workers undercut what would otherwise be the going rate for the work.
    I would really like to see the evidence for that last assertion.
    As I understand it, and I am happy to be corrected, if they are employed by an agency in their host country and are then transferred by that agency to the UK then under the Posted Worker Directive the relevant employment standards, subject to certain minima, are those of the host country not the UK. In short the UK Minimum Wage does not apply.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 13,295

    DavidL said:

    Completely O/T, but I haven't been able to find the answer anywhere else, and PB is a great repository of expertise: If you have a company which is wound up, with funds available to be distributed to shareholders, what happens if some of the shareholders are untraceable? Presumably the money has to be held somewhere in case they turn up, but where? And what happens if they never turn up?

    I take it that it is a solvent voluntary winding up? In company takeovers the seller sometimes takes out an insurance policy to cover the possibility that very small untraceable shareholders turn up so I can't see why whoever is dealing with the distribution here couldn't do something similar.
    Yes, a solvent voluntary job. My puzzle is that there is no-one left to hold the potential liability, and indeed the asset to meet that liability.
    Doesn't the money just go to the state if the shareholders aren't found before company disappears from the register?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 16,995
    FF43 said:

    A dull set of by-election results. One safe Labour seat becomes more so. Three safe Conservative seats less so. An independent drops out of a further seat, allowing second placed Conservatives to come through on a relatively smaller vote share. So goodish for Labour; baddish for the Tories despite gaining a seat and overall meh.

    You are Sir Anthony King reincarnated. "Gains mean a bad night for the Toaaaaries.."
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 399

    Elliot said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Ally_B said:

    I'd assumed this was a scare story and wouldn't actually happen when people predicted this very thing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals

    Isn't the real problem the large number of feckless Brits who sit watching Jeremy Kyle rather than putting in a day's graft?
    Are there 'any' of them left? With UK unemployment are low levels one might think that migrant workers are a necessity to meet peak demand at harvest time.
    The Carse of Gowrie and Perthshire are probably the biggest fruit picking areas in Scotland. Unemployment in Dundee is currently 3,300.
    Tbf requirement for fruit pickers is currently 0.
    True, but the descriptions given by others of guest workers provided with accommodation by farmers but organised by gang masters etc is spot on. I don't expect this year to be any different. There are a lot of reasons to be concerned about this, not just underemployed Brits.
    Guest workers are always going to be ripe for exploitation. The only reason anyone brings them in is to get them to do jobs with pay and conditions below what British people can tolerate. If you're going to put up the pay and conditions to British standards, then British people would acvept the jobs and there's no need for the guest scheme.
    I disagree. The vast majority of farmers abide by the rules and pay the minimum wage. I know plenty who pay a premium over and above that for experienced workers who come back year after year. The standards are not the problem. It is the fact that British youth are too often jot willing to actually work for a living and they are rewarded for that through our social security system.
    The bare legal minimum of the rules and minimum wage is still a pretty low standard. British unemployment is very low, which suggests right wing myths are untrue. The problem with guest worker users is that they're not willing to pay the going rate (including on conditions) on the open market. That's why they want a special cache of poor workers they don't have to compete with other sectors for. I'm surprised someone with such a penchant for free markets supports such a system. It's a perk for a favoured industry.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 1,641
    edited February 9

    CD13 said:

    Mr Tyndall,

    "British youth are too often jot willing to actually work for a living and they are rewarded for that through our social security system."

    There may be truth in that, but if I were sixteen again and presented with modern days options now, I might be tempted to look elsewhere too.

    Says he, trying not to sound like an old git ... "Them young 'uns, don't know they're born nowadays."

    That's a fair enough point. But the idea that we have so many guest workers because farmers exploit them as was claimed below is rubbish. We have them because we do not have the people willing to do all the basic wage and menial jobs that need doing. The idea that you solve this by increasing the wages paid is facile. They are low paid jobs because they are low value jobs and wecate consumers are not willing to pay more for them or for the products they provide.

    It is all part of the underlying problem in the UK that we have moved from pushing equality of opportunity to pushing equality of outcomes. We no longer tell kids that evetyyone should have the same opportunities. We now tell them that everyone should have the same rewards. So no one wants to be a bus driver or a bin man. No one wants to spend the summer picking fruit when they can spend it on an internship or a gap year holiday. Not every one can be a computer game designer and the sooner they realise that the better

    Apologies for the sweeping statements. Obviously this doesn't apply to everyome. But it does apply to a significant number of people.
    Sorry Richard but you don’t do yourself any favours with such gross oversimplification. Wages are a function of labour demand and supply; clearly since 2004 the latter has increased immensely. That has had a negative impact on wages for people at the bottom of the income distribution. Why should the people you expect to do those jobs just accept it? Perhaps it would be better if consumers couldn’t pay just 50p for a cucumber. I strongly suspect the broader costs to our society of this kind of production, in terms of infrastructure and wage subsidies, make it a lossmaker overall.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 18,494

    DavidL said:

    Completely O/T, but I haven't been able to find the answer anywhere else, and PB is a great repository of expertise: If you have a company which is wound up, with funds available to be distributed to shareholders, what happens if some of the shareholders are untraceable? Presumably the money has to be held somewhere in case they turn up, but where? And what happens if they never turn up?

    I take it that it is a solvent voluntary winding up? In company takeovers the seller sometimes takes out an insurance policy to cover the possibility that very small untraceable shareholders turn up so I can't see why whoever is dealing with the distribution here couldn't do something similar.
    Yes, a solvent voluntary job. My puzzle is that there is no-one left to hold the potential liability, and indeed the asset to meet that liability.
    In Scotland the money would ultimately go to the Lord's Rememberancer and Treasurer, basically the State, but I would check out the insurance option if the money is significant.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 16,995
    German newspaper not impressed with the outcome of the Grand Coalition

    https://global.handelsblatt.com/opinion/angela-merkel-declares-victory-surrenders-885270

    "Germans, however, have already seen enough. They are somewhere between bored, disappointed and horrified. The document that seals the third “grand coalition” (sic) under Angela Merkel as chancellor is as long on waffle as it is short on substance. Its only message is that the negotiators haggled with one objective: to get themselves into plum jobs and their rivals into retirement.

    One hardly knows whom to blame most, but Ms. Merkel deserves to go first. In her thirteenth year in power, she looks exhausted, and bewildered that her alleged tactical aplomb has of late fallen flat. "
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 16,995

    Six Nations, annoyingly, the Ladbrokes price on France beating Scotland has lengthened slightly (don't know why).

    Heart over head money going on Scotland.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 25,652
    edited February 9
    Just out of interest, are there any advanced industrial economies where agricultural work isn’t largely done by immigrant labour? I am guessing Japan might be one, and Australia and New Zealand, but what about in Europe and North America? France maybe?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 3,523
    Did you have a chance to consider my betting proposal on the previous thread?
    (£10 at 5-1 on Corbyn becoming PM within 6 months of the next General Election)

    No worries either way.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 40,653
    Mr. Flashman (deceased), I backed Scotland to beat Wales. I'll be a bit miffed if they rediscover how to play. Although I dare say the French losing their first two games would be balm for the irritation.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 17,646
    edited February 9
    @DavidL @RottenBorough - Thanks, yes, it might be as simple as the Crown grabbing it. However, that seems a bit odd, because the beneficial owner is the missing shareholder, not the dissolved company.

    Edit: Companies Act 2006: When a company is dissolved, all property and rights whatsoever vested in or held on trust for the company immediately before its dissolution (including leasehold property, but not including property held by the company on trust for another person) are deemed to be bona vacantia
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,993
    RoyalBlue said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Tyndall,

    "British youth are too often jot willing to actually work for a living and they are rewarded for that through our social security system."

    There may be truth in that, but if I were sixteen again and presented with modern days options now, I might be tempted to look elsewhere too.

    Says he, trying not to sound like an old git ... "Them young 'uns, don't know they're born nowadays."

    That's a fair enough point. But the idea that we have so many guest workers because farmers exploit them as was claimed below is rubbish. We have them because we do not have the people willing to do all the basic wage and menial jobs that need doing. The idea that you solve this by increasing the wages paid is facile. They are low paid jobs because they are low value jobs and wecate consumers are not willing to pay more for them or for the products they provide.

    It is all part of the underlying problem in the UK that we have moved from pushing equality of opportunity to pushing equality of outcomes. We no longer tell kids that evetyyone should have the same opportunities. We now tell them that everyone should have the same rewards. So no one wants to be a bus driver or a bin man. No one wants to spend the summer picking fruit when they can spend it on an internship or a gap year holiday. Not every one can be a computer game designer and the sooner they realise that the better

    Apologies for the sweeping statements. Obviously this doesn't apply to everyome. But it does apply to a significant number of people.
    Sorry Richard but you don’t do yourself any favours with such gross oversimplification. Wages are a function of labour demand and supply; clearly since 2004 the latter has increased immensely. That has had a negative impact on wages for people at the bottom of the income distribution. Why should the people you expect to do those jobs just accept it? Perhaps it would be better if consumers couldn’t pay just 50p for a cucumber. I strongly suspect the broader costs to our society of this kind of production, in terms of infrastructure and wage subsidies, make it a lossmaker overall.
    Wages were once a function of Labour demand and supply. Then we introduced the minimum wage. That has had the effect of setting both a floor and in some cases a ceiling on the wages for menial jobs. And of course I don't expect the workers to accept it. Under our current system they can choose not to do the work and there are plenty of Eastern Europeans who are willing to do it in their stead. And if we close off that route and demand that the farmers pay more they will very quickly find their produce replaced in the supermarkets by that from Spain or Chile or Kenya. That is the reality you seem to be railing against.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 18,494
    Does there come a point when we should become concerned about the falls in most of the worlds leading stock markets? The FTSE has now lost pretty much all of its gains over the last 12 months. The Dow has lost a fair chunk of its gains but is still up roughly 20% over that period.

    I think that this is asset values recalibrating to a world where interest rates will not be on the floor indefinitely but it seems out of step with the glowing international picture that is currently being painted.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 18,555

    @DavidL @RottenBorough - Thanks, yes, it might be as simple as the Crown grabbing it. However, that seems a bit odd, because the beneficial owner is the missing shareholder, not the dissolved company.

    Edit: Companies Act 2006: When a company is dissolved, all property and rights whatsoever vested in or held on trust for the company immediately before its dissolution (including leasehold property, but not including property held by the company on trust for another person) are deemed to be bona vacantia

    Have you used a tracing agency to try to track down the missing shareholders?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 9,548
    edited February 9
    I see that the Guardian is continuing its campaign on behalf of expolitative farmers.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals

    It seems that not enough Romanians want to work hard enough for low enough wages in bad enough conditions.

    The idea that better pay and conditions might attract more workers does not seem to have occurred. But then the idea of better pay and conditions for the rural working class appears to be anathema to metropolitan leftists. I suspect that the average Guardian journalist would think that the Tolpuddle Martyrs got off too lightly.

    Apparently the UK is on the brink of starvation because there were 4,300 job vacancies in the agricultural sector last year.

    That's about 1% of the total agricultural workforce.

    Alternatively those agricultural job vacancies were about 5% of the number of 18-24 year olds who had been unemployed for more than a year or about 1% of the number of unemployed immigrants.

    With eastern England now resembling the Ukraine in 1933 perhaps we need to look at drastic measures.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 17,646

    @DavidL @RottenBorough - Thanks, yes, it might be as simple as the Crown grabbing it. However, that seems a bit odd, because the beneficial owner is the missing shareholder, not the dissolved company.

    Edit: Companies Act 2006: When a company is dissolved, all property and rights whatsoever vested in or held on trust for the company immediately before its dissolution (including leasehold property, but not including property held by the company on trust for another person) are deemed to be bona vacantia

    Have you used a tracing agency to try to track down the missing shareholders?
    At the moment this is hypothetical, so no.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 13,993
    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Ally_B said:

    I'd assumed this was a scare story and wouldn't actually happen when people predicted this very thing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals

    Isn't the real problem the large number of feckless Brits who sit watching Jeremy Kyle rather than putting in a day's graft?
    Are there 'any' of them left? With UK unemployment are low levels one might think that migrant workers are a necessity to meet peak demand at harvest time.
    The Carse of Gowrie and Perthshire are probably the biggest fruit picking areas in Scotland. Unemployment in Dundee is currently 3,300.
    Tbf requirement for fruit pickers is currently 0.
    True, but the descriptions given by others of guest workers provided with accommodation by farmers but organised by gang masters etc is spot on. I don't expect this year to be any different. There are a lot of reasons to be concerned about this, not just underemployed Brits.
    Guest workers are always going to be ripe for exploitation. The only reason anyone brings them in is to get them to do jobs with pay and conditions below what British people can tolerate. If you're going to put up the pay and conditions to British standards, then British people would acvept the jobs and there's no need for the guest scheme.
    I disagree. The vast majority of farmers abide by the rules and pay the minimum wage. I know plenty who pay a premium over and above that for experienced workers who come back year after year. The standards are not the problem. It is the fact that British youth are too often jot willing to actually work for a living and they are rewarded for that through our social security system.
    The bare legal minimum of the rules and minimum wage is still a pretty low standard. British unemployment is very low, which suggests right wing myths are untrue. The problem with guest worker users is that they're not willing to pay the going rate (including on conditions) on the open market. That's why they want a special cache of poor workers they don't have to compete with other sectors for. I'm surprised someone with such a penchant for free markets supports such a system. It's a perk for a favoured industry.
    No it's not. It's the free market in action. You are the one who wants to 'fix' the market in favour of one group of workers.
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 1,851

    Just out of interest, are there any advanced industrial economies where agricultural work isn’t largely done by immigrant labour? I am guessing Japan might be one, and Australia and New Zealand, but what about in Europe and North America? France maybe?

    The hard graft of the olive harvest in Greece has been done by Albanians since the migration some years ago.Hospitality and catering too.
This discussion has been closed.