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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If not May, then who?

SystemSystem Posts: 3,967
edited February 10 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If not May, then who?

Correctly identifying the next Conservative leader is a notoriously tricky task. While the golden rule is to lay the favourite – something which can accumulate good profits over a prolonged period – it’s still quite a cautious strategy. The more ambitious, but much more difficult, one is to try to back the winner.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • In first, unlike Jezza on a Virgin train.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 1,517
    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.
  • A good way to be black balled from ever getting another job in Silicon Valley...

    https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/9/16997266/apple-source-code-leak-intern-internal-tools-jailbreaking-github-ios-9
  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,300
    Thanks for the excellent analysis, David.
  • The government has announced it is reviewing all its work with Oxfam, after the charity was accused of covering up the use of prostitutes by its aid workers in Haiti.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43013669
  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,300

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
  • An Israeli fighter jet has crashed amid Syrian anti-aircraft fire in an offensive against Iranian targets in Syria, the Israeli military says.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-43014081
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 1,517
    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,300

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 7,695
    Thank you David, very interesting.

    A couple points. We now know that Cameron was a fully fledged supporter of the EU. Back in 2005 he went to great lengths to hide that from the membership. Hell, he even wound up Merkel by pulling the Tories out of the EPP. But when it came to it, after all the "no ifs, no buts", Cameron showed his true colours in 2016. Whether or not that will have an impact on the leadership election is another matter. My dad (not a Tory Party member) still thinks it's wrong that the Tories ended up with a Remainer after the referendum. But I guess it depends when the election takes place as to the influence of Brexit.

    Gove would likely be required by MPs to sign in blood that he wouldn’t invite Dominic Cummings into Number Ten before being assured of their support.

    Why? Cummings oversaw one of the greatest political upsets ever. He's a winner.

    Finally, what of Phil Hammond? Surely the current CotE is worthy of consideration.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 25,652
    edited February 10
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 18,668

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the voters decided the political compromises, including FOM, were not worth it
  • On topic - there are no Tory leadership candidates that a halfwsy decent opposition should have any cause to fear. The runners and riders David identifies goes to show just how devoid of talent the Conservative party is. With Corbyn in charge of Labour, though, the Tories are guaranteed power. It’s terrible news for the country. What an abysmal choice voters have.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,300
    edited February 10

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the UK doesn't want to be part of a Federal Europe, which is the ultimate destination for the EU? If that happened the UK would be ultimately feeble, having lost all of its sovereignty.
  • Charles said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the voters decided the political compromises, including FOM, were not worth it

    They did. We’ll find out over the coming years if they were right. As the Japanese have made very clear, if the Tories cannot get a good Brexit deal a lot of well-paid jobs that sustain a number of communities in Leave voting areas are at substantial risk. But you’ll be fine, Charles, so that’s some relief, at least.

  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the UK doesn't want to be part of a Federal Europe, which is the ultimate destination for the EU? If that happened the UK would be ultimately feeble, having lost all of its sovereignty.

    The UK is going to be beholden to others whatever course we choose to take - the Chinese, the Americans and the EU will essentially be dictating our future. Absolute sovereignty is no solution to anything in and of itself.

  • felixfelix Posts: 7,095

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the voters decided the political compromises, including FOM, were not worth it

    They did. We’ll find out over the coming years if they were right. As the Japanese have made very clear, if the Tories cannot get a good Brexit deal a lot of well-paid jobs that sustain a number of communities in Leave voting areas are at substantial risk. But you’ll be fine, Charles, so that’s some relief, at least.

    Why spoil a perfectly sound point with the personal dig. Just diminishes your point.
  • tlg86 said:

    Thank you David, very interesting.

    A couple points. We now know that Cameron was a fully fledged supporter of the EU. Back in 2005 he went to great lengths to hide that from the membership. Hell, he even wound up Merkel by pulling the Tories out of the EPP. But when it came to it, after all the "no ifs, no buts", Cameron showed his true colours in 2016. Whether or not that will have an impact on the leadership election is another matter. My dad (not a Tory Party member) still thinks it's wrong that the Tories ended up with a Remainer after the referendum. But I guess it depends when the election takes place as to the influence of Brexit.

    Gove would likely be required by MPs to sign in blood that he wouldn’t invite Dominic Cummings into Number Ten before being assured of their support.

    Why? Cummings oversaw one of the greatest political upsets ever. He's a winner.

    Finally, what of Phil Hammond? Surely the current CotE is worthy of consideration.

    You can win a referendum on the back of a cake and eat it strategy, but if you do the same to win an election the voters are very quickly going to turn against you as you start to make the hard choices you claimed were not necessary.

  • felix said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the voters decided the political compromises, including FOM, were not worth it

    They did. We’ll find out over the coming years if they were right. As the Japanese have made very clear, if the Tories cannot get a good Brexit deal a lot of well-paid jobs that sustain a number of communities in Leave voting areas are at substantial risk. But you’ll be fine, Charles, so that’s some relief, at least.

    Why spoil a perfectly sound point with the personal dig. Just diminishes your point.

    Because the cake and eat it uplands that were promised by the privileged, wealthy Tories who advocate Brexit are not available to most Leave voters. They will have to deal with the every day realities of what Brexit actually leads to.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 18,668

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the voters decided the political compromises, including FOM, were not worth it

    They did. We’ll find out over the coming years if they were right. As the Japanese have made very clear, if the Tories cannot get a good Brexit deal a lot of well-paid jobs that sustain a number of communities in Leave voting areas are at substantial risk. But you’ll be fine, Charles, so that’s some relief, at least.

    You have a very unpleasant way of personalising things
  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,300
    edited February 10

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the UK doesn't want to be part of a Federal Europe, which is the ultimate destination for the EU? If that happened the UK would be ultimately feeble, having lost all of its sovereignty.

    The UK is going to be beholden to others whatever course we choose to take - the Chinese, the Americans and the EU will essentially be dictating our future. Absolute sovereignty is no solution to anything in and of itself.

    I'm amazed how any of the other independent countries in the world actually manage. Japan, for example, the country you mentioned that was warning the UK about its future direction.
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,095
    Trump tells Israel it needs to make 'significant compromises' for peace with Palestinians
    Independent
  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,300
    felix said:

    Trump tells Israel it needs to make 'significant compromises' for peace with Palestinians
    Independent

    How are the anti-Trump left supposed to respond to that?!
  • Charles said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the voters decided the political compromises, including FOM, were not worth it

    They did. We’ll find out over the coming years if they were right. As the Japanese have made very clear, if the Tories cannot get a good Brexit deal a lot of well-paid jobs that sustain a number of communities in Leave voting areas are at substantial risk. But you’ll be fine, Charles, so that’s some relief, at least.

    You have a very unpleasant way of personalising things

    Reality is reality, Charles. Brexit will have almost no impact on you and your family. Millions of others are not in that fortunate position. However unpleasant it is to make, I think it is an important point: wealthy, privileged advocates of leaving the EU will not have to live with the consequences of what happens should it go wrong.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,300

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the voters decided the political compromises, including FOM, were not worth it

    They did. We’ll find out over the coming years if they were right. As the Japanese have made very clear, if the Tories cannot get a good Brexit deal a lot of well-paid jobs that sustain a number of communities in Leave voting areas are at substantial risk. But you’ll be fine, Charles, so that’s some relief, at least.

    You have a very unpleasant way of personalising things

    Reality is reality, Charles. Brexit will have almost no impact on you and your family. Millions of others are not in that fortunate position. However unpleasant it is to make, I think it is an important point: wealthy, privileged advocates of leaving the EU will not have to live with the consequences of what happens should it go wrong.

    I don't think most of the Leave voters were wealthy or privileged, and they made their own decision as to how to vote in the referendum.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 18,555
    A characteristically excellent article from David Herdson. I hope he’s right about Jacob Rees-Mogg because he’s my big loser in this.

    Amazing that the Chancellor of the Exchequer doesn’t feature in such an article. It shows just how prey to dogma the Conservatives currently are.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 18,668

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the voters decided the political compromises, including FOM, were not worth it

    They did. We’ll find out over the coming years if they were right. As the Japanese have made very clear, if the Tories cannot get a good Brexit deal a lot of well-paid jobs that sustain a number of communities in Leave voting areas are at substantial risk. But you’ll be fine, Charles, so that’s some relief, at least.

    You have a very unpleasant way of personalising things

    Reality is reality, Charles. Brexit will have almost no impact on you and your family. Millions of others are not in that fortunate position. However unpleasant it is to make, I think it is an important point: wealthy, privileged advocates of leaving the EU will not have to live with the consequences of what happens should it go wrong.

    It’s not that compelling a point but if you feel the need to make it then do so in the abstract not the specific
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the UK doesn't want to be part of a Federal Europe, which is the ultimate destination for the EU? If that happened the UK would be ultimately feeble, having lost all of its sovereignty.

    The UK is going to be beholden to others whatever course we choose to take - the Chinese, the Americans and the EU will essentially be dictating our future. Absolute sovereignty is no solution to anything in and of itself.

    I'm amazed how any of the other independent countries in the world actually manage. Japan, for example, the country you mentioned that was warning the UK about its future direction.

    To the best of my knowledge, Japan has never actively sought to make it more complicated and more expensive to trade with its single biggest export market. We were not promised “managing” when we voted to leave the EU, we were promised sunlit uplands - better paid jobs, more public spending, lower taxes; a buccaneering Britain bestriding the world.

  • felixfelix Posts: 7,095

    felix said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the voters decided the political compromises, including FOM, were not worth it

    They did. We’ll find out over the coming years if they were right. As the Japanese have made very clear, if the Tories cannot get a good Brexit deal a lot of well-paid jobs that sustain a number of communities in Leave voting areas are at substantial risk. But you’ll be fine, Charles, so that’s some relief, at least.

    Why spoil a perfectly sound point with the personal dig. Just diminishes your point.

    Because the cake and eat it uplands that were promised by the privileged, wealthy Tories who advocate Brexit are not available to most Leave voters. They will have to deal with the every day realities of what Brexit actually leads to.

    There you go predicting the future again. Most leave voters were neither privileged nor wealthy and their motives for voting were manifold. The Remain campaign was backed by plenty of wealthy and privileged people from all parties making all sorts of dubious claims. Time to move on.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 791

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the voters decided the political compromises, including FOM, were not worth it

    They did. We’ll find out over the coming years if they were right. As the Japanese have made very clear, if the Tories cannot get a good Brexit deal a lot of well-paid jobs that sustain a number of communities in Leave voting areas are at substantial risk. But you’ll be fine, Charles, so that’s some relief, at least.

    We all have to garner our assets and abilities to make the best out of the economic turbulence. Charles should do so as much as the next person, not least because the next round of Populism is likely to be a Corbynite one.

    Leave areas were warned about the economic choices, including job losses, of leaving. They chose to go against that. It is wrong to insulate voters from the consequences of their actions.

    Large scale, well paid manufacturing jobs are going to be few, because of automation as much as any other reason. The few that do exist are going to be highly technical.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,300

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the UK doesn't want to be part of a Federal Europe, which is the ultimate destination for the EU? If that happened the UK would be ultimately feeble, having lost all of its sovereignty.

    The UK is going to be beholden to others whatever course we choose to take - the Chinese, the Americans and the EU will essentially be dictating our future. Absolute sovereignty is no solution to anything in and of itself.

    I'm amazed how any of the other independent countries in the world actually manage. Japan, for example, the country you mentioned that was warning the UK about its future direction.

    To the best of my knowledge, Japan has never actively sought to make it more complicated and more expensive to trade with its single biggest export market. We were not promised “managing” when we voted to leave the EU, we were promised sunlit uplands - better paid jobs, more public spending, lower taxes; a buccaneering Britain bestriding the world.

    Better paid jobs? Maybe: http://fortune.com/2017/09/07/uk-workers-brexit/
    More public spending? Well, it's higher than it was last year.
    Lower taxes? We can hope so, especially on some VAT-rated products.
  • Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the voters decided the political compromises, including FOM, were not worth it

    They did. We’ll find out over the coming years if they were right. As the Japanese have made very clear, if the Tories cannot get a good Brexit deal a lot of well-paid jobs that sustain a number of communities in Leave voting areas are at substantial risk. But you’ll be fine, Charles, so that’s some relief, at least.

    You have a very unpleasant way of personalising things

    Reality is reality, Charles. Brexit will have almost no impact on you and your family. Millions of others are not in that fortunate position. However unpleasant it is to make, I think it is an important point: wealthy, privileged advocates of leaving the EU will not have to live with the consequences of what happens should it go wrong.

    It’s not that compelling a point but if you feel the need to make it then do so in the abstract not the specific

    Of course it’s not a compelling point for you. But I always find specific examples are better than abstract arguments as they are rooted in reality.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 16,117

    The government has announced it is reviewing all its work with Oxfam, after the charity was accused of covering up the use of prostitutes by its aid workers in Haiti.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43013669

    Good news, although the whole charity sector really is in huge need of reform.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,300
    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the voters decided the political compromises, including FOM, were not worth it

    They did. We’ll find out over the coming years if they were right. As the Japanese have made very clear, if the Tories cannot get a good Brexit deal a lot of well-paid jobs that sustain a number of communities in Leave voting areas are at substantial risk. But you’ll be fine, Charles, so that’s some relief, at least.

    We all have to garner our assets and abilities to make the best out of the economic turbulence. Charles should do so as much as the next person, not least because the next round of Populism is likely to be a Corbynite one.

    Leave areas were warned about the economic choices, including job losses, of leaving. They chose to go against that. It is wrong to insulate voters from the consequences of their actions.

    Large scale, well paid manufacturing jobs are going to be few, because of automation as much as any other reason. The few that do exist are going to be highly technical.
    Not insulating voters from their choices? Not sure how that agrees with Labour's mantra of getting someone else to pay for all the goodies.
  • Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the voters decided the political compromises, including FOM, were not worth it

    They did. We’ll find out over the coming years if they were right. As the Japanese have made very clear, if the Tories cannot get a good Brexit deal a lot of well-paid jobs that sustain a number of communities in Leave voting areas are at substantial risk. But you’ll be fine, Charles, so that’s some relief, at least.

    We all have to garner our assets and abilities to make the best out of the economic turbulence. Charles should do so as much as the next person, not least because the next round of Populism is likely to be a Corbynite one.

    Leave areas were warned about the economic choices, including job losses, of leaving. They chose to go against that. It is wrong to insulate voters from the consequences of their actions.

    Large scale, well paid manufacturing jobs are going to be few, because of automation as much as any other reason. The few that do exist are going to be highly technical.

    We will all have to live with the fall-out of a bad Brexit. The decline of communities ruined by the end of heavy industry in the 80s and 90s - and the long-term social problems this caused - has been a dominant issue for the last 30-35 years. Likewise, we will not be able to ignore the consequences of a bad Brexit; its ramifications will spread well beyond those directly affected. Only the wealthiest will be shielded from it.

  • felix said:

    felix said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the voters decided the political compromises, including FOM, were not worth it

    They did. We’ll find out over the coming years if they were right. As the Japanese have made very clear, if the Tories cannot get a good Brexit deal a lot of well-paid jobs that sustain a number of communities in Leave voting areas are at substantial risk. But you’ll be fine, Charles, so that’s some relief, at least.

    Why spoil a perfectly sound point with the personal dig. Just diminishes your point.

    Because the cake and eat it uplands that were promised by the privileged, wealthy Tories who advocate Brexit are not available to most Leave voters. They will have to deal with the every day realities of what Brexit actually leads to.

    There you go predicting the future again. Most leave voters were neither privileged nor wealthy and their motives for voting were manifold. The Remain campaign was backed by plenty of wealthy and privileged people from all parties making all sorts of dubious claims. Time to move on.

    I am moving on. Did you hear what the Japanese government said about future investment in the UK this week? Did you see the economic forecasts for the NE in the case of a No Deal or WTO Brexit? It doesn’t take a genius to see where certain parts of the country are heading should the Tories fail to get a good deal.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 16,117
    On topic, an excellent article as usual from David. Glad that his expert opinion somewhat matches my book, I’m green on Gove and Hunt (and Hammond) and most red on JRM and Boris.
  • Sandpit said:

    The government has announced it is reviewing all its work with Oxfam, after the charity was accused of covering up the use of prostitutes by its aid workers in Haiti.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43013669

    Good news, although the whole charity sector really is in huge need of reform.

    It does, the idea that Toby Young gets paid a salary of close to £100,000 a year by a schools charity that is largely funded by the government is pretty repellant.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 18,668

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the voters decided the political compromises, including FOM, were not worth it

    They did. We’ll find out over the coming years if they were right. As the Japanese have made very clear, if the Tories cannot get a good Brexit deal a lot of well-paid jobs that sustain a number of communities in Leave voting areas are at substantial risk. But you’ll be fine, Charles, so that’s some relief, at least.

    You have a very unpleasant way of personalising things

    Reality is reality, Charles. Brexit will have almost no impact on you and your family. Millions of others are not in that fortunate position. However unpleasant it is to make, I think it is an important point: wealthy, privileged advocates of leaving the EU will not have to live with the consequences of what happens should it go wrong.

    It’s not that compelling a point but if you feel the need to make it then do so in the abstract not the specific

    Of course it’s not a compelling point for you. But I always find specific examples are better than abstract arguments as they are rooted in reality.

    I would politely ask you not to use me as a “specific example” as you know very little about my financial situation
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,095

    felix said:

    felix said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the voters decided the political compromises, including FOM, were not worth it

    They did. We’ll find out over the coming years if they were right. As the Japanese have made very clear, if the Tories cannot get a good Brexit deal a lot of well-paid jobs that sustain a number of communities in Leave voting areas are at substantial risk. But you’ll be fine, Charles, so that’s some relief, at least.

    Why spoil a perfectly sound point with the personal dig. Just diminishes your point.

    Because the cake and eat it uplands that were promised by the privileged, wealthy Tories who advocate Brexit are not available to most Leave voters. They will have to deal with the every day realities of what Brexit actually leads to.

    There you go predicting the future again. Most leave voters were neither privileged nor wealthy and their motives for voting were manifold. The Remain campaign was backed by plenty of wealthy and privileged people from all parties making all sorts of dubious claims. Time to move on.

    I am moving on. Did you hear what the Japanese government said about future investment in the UK this week? Did you see the economic forecasts for the NE in the case of a No Deal or WTO Brexit? It doesn’t take a genius to see where certain parts of the country are heading should the Tories fail to get a good deal.

    Except for your silly personal digs at the 'privileged' Brexiteers you make interesting comments. I'd be more annoyed at the privileged establishment which utterly failed in 2016 to make a case for the EU.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,553
    With a choice between Gove Boris and Hunt I'm sure we'll all be saying a little prayer that Theresa remains in good heath
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 25,652
    edited February 10
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the voters decided the political compromises, including FOM, were not worth it

    They did. We’ll find out over the coming years if they were right. As the Japanese have made very clear, if the Tories cannot get a good Brexit deal a lot of well-paid jobs that sustain a number of communities in Leave voting areas are at substantial risk. But you’ll be fine, Charles, so that’s some relief, at least.

    You have a very unpleasant way of personalising things

    Reality is reality, Charles. Brexit will have almost no impact on you and your family. Millions of others are not in that fortunate position. However unpleasant it is to make, I think it is an important point: wealthy, privileged advocates of leaving the EU will not have to live with the consequences of what happens should it go wrong.

    It’s not that compelling a point but if you feel the need to make it then do so in the abstract not the specific

    Of course it’s not a compelling point for you. But I always find specific examples are better than abstract arguments as they are rooted in reality.

    I would politely ask you not to use me as a “specific example” as you know very little about my financial situation

    You have shared with us all on a number of occasions that you are an Eton-educated member of a very wealthy family with deep roots in the establishment and that you do very well remunerated consultancy work for businesses on an international basis.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 791

    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble

    Because the voters decided the political compromises, including FOM, were not worth it

    They did. We’ll find out over the coming years if they were right. As the Japanese have made very clear, if the Tories cannot get a good Brexit deal a lot of well-paid jobs that sustain a number of communities in Leave voting areas are at substantial risk. But you’ll be fine, Charles, so that’s some relief, at least.

    We all have to garner our assets and abilities to make the best out of the economic turbulence. Charles should do so as much as the next person, not least because the next round of Populism is likely to be a Corbynite one.

    Leave areas were warned about the economic choices, including job losses, of leaving. They chose to go against that. It is wrong to insulate voters from the consequences of their actions.

    Large scale, well paid manufacturing jobs are going to be few, because of automation as much as any other reason. The few that do exist are going to be highly technical.

    We will all have to live with the fall-out of a bad Brexit. The decline of communities ruined by the end of heavy industry in the 80s and 90s - and the long-term social problems this caused - has been a dominant issue for the last 30-35 years. Likewise, we will not be able to ignore the consequences of a bad Brexit; its ramifications will spread well beyond those directly affected. Only the wealthiest will be shielded from it.

    I fully agree, and believe the economic and social consequences of Brexit will dominate the next couple decades politically. The blame game will be very vocal, but the blame will mostly fall on the EU, and on the Tory party. It is why Corbynism, with its economic protectionism, is likely to be the future of Brexit Britain. Leave voters are not going to blame themselves, and Remain voters are goint to blame the current cabinet.

    I think that things are rarely either as good as they seems or as bad as they seem. Brexit is no apocalypse, nor is it going to be the rebirth of us as the workshop of the world.
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble

    Because the voters decided the political compromises, including FOM, were not worth it

    They did. We’ll find out over the coming years if they were right. As the Japanese have made very clear, if the Tories cannot get a good Brexit deal a lot of well-paid jobs that sustain a number of communities in Leave voting areas are at substantial risk. But you’ll be fine, Charles, so that’s some relief, at least.

    We all have to garner our assets and abilities to make the best out of the economic turbulence. Charles should do so as much as the next person, not least because the next round of Populism is likely to be a Corbynite one.

    Leave areas were warned about the economic choices, including job losses, of leaving. They chose to go against that. It is wrong to insulate voters from the consequences of their actions.

    Large scale, well paid manufacturing jobs are going to be few, because of automation as much as any other reason. The few that do exist are going to be highly technical.

    We will all have to livel beyond those directly affected. Only the wealthiest will be shielded from it.

    I fully agree, and believe the economic and social consequences of Brexit will dominate the next couple decades politically. The blame game will be very vocal, but the blame will mostly fall on the EU, and on the Tory party. It is why Corbynism, with its economic protectionism, is likely to be the future of Brexit Britain. Leave voters are not going to blame themselves, and Remain voters are goint to blame the current cabinet.

    I think that things are rarely either as good as they seems or as bad as they seem. Brexit is no apocalypse, nor is it going to be the rebirth of us as the workshop of the world.

    Yep, I agree, but with one caveat: while overall Brexit will be negative, but not cataclysmic, in some parts of the country it will be devastating if the UK does not get a good deal.

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 9,543
    David has a touching faith in the judgement of the electorate that thought IDS was the right choice.
  • felix said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the voters decided the political compromises, including FOM, were not worth it

    They did. We’ll find be fine, Charles, so that’s some relief, at least.

    Why spoil a perfectly sound point with the personal dig. Just diminishes your point.

    Because the cake and eat its to.

    There youall parties making all sorts of dubious claims. Time to move on.

    I am moving on. Did you hear what the Japanese government said about future investment in the UK this week? Did you see the economic forecasts for the NE in the case of a No Deal or WTO Brexit? It doesn’t take a genius to see where certain parts of the country are heading should the Tories fail to get a good deal.

    Except for your silly personal digs at the 'privileged' Brexiteers you make interesting comments. I'd be more annoyed at the privileged establishment which utterly failed in 2016 to make a case for the EU.

    The referendum campaign was largely dominated by wealthy Tories telling lies to the voters. That was to be expected. What I find most unforgiveable is the attitude of the Labour leadership. As he showed last May and June, Corbyn could have galvanised younger voters to come out and vote Remain. He went on holiday instead. That is contemptible.

  • FF43FF43 Posts: 5,892
    I really don't have a clue who will be next Tory leader, but on a suspicion that it will echo the IDS election, keep an eye on who the Telegraph supports, especially when it gets to the run off. The Telegraph went all in on IDS and is very influential on the diminishing and aged band of Tory members.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 16,117
    edited February 10
    IanB2 said:

    David has a touching faith in the judgement of the electorate that thought IDS was the right choice.

    He was the necessary choice to avoid us joining the Euro. Once he had achieved that he was quietly replaced.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 9,543
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    David has a touching faith in the judgement of the electorate that thought IDS was the right choice.

    He was the necessary choice to avoid us joining the Euro. Once he had achieved that he was quietly replaced.
    As leader of the opposition I don't recall him having achieved anything, apart perhaps from generating some mild entertainment.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 18,668
    edited February 10

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the voters decided the political compromises, including FOM, were not worth it

    number of communities in Leave voting areas are at substantial risk. But you’ll be fine, Charles, so that’s some relief, at least.

    You have a very unpleasant way of personalising things

    Reality is reality, Charles. Brexit will have almost no impact on you and your family. Millions of others are not in that fortunate position. However unpleasant it is to make, I think it is an important point: wealthy, privileged advocates of leaving the EU will not have to live with the consequences of what happens should it go wrong.

    It’s not that compelling a point but if you feel the need to make it then do so in the abstract not the specific

    Of course it’s not a compelling point for you. But I always find specific examples are better than abstract arguments as they are rooted in reality.

    I would politely ask you not to use me as a “specific example” as you know very little about my financial situation

    You have shared with us all on a number of occasions that you are an Eton-educated member of a very wealthy family with deep roots in the establishment and that you do very well remunerated consultancy work for businesses on an international basis.

    Sure - I’m as well off as any modestly successful City professional. But I’ve not received (nor will I ever receive) any money from my brother’s company

    None of that alters the issue: in attacking me personally you undermine your own case - ad hominem is the sign of someone who doesn’t have confidence in their own arguments
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 18,668

    felix said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the voters decided the political compromises, including FOM, were not worth it

    They did. We’ll find be fine, Charles, so that’s some relief, at least.

    Why spoil a perfectly sound point with the personal dig. Just diminishes your point.

    Because the cake and eat its to.

    There youall parties making all sorts of dubious claims. Time to move on.

    I am moving on. Did you hear what the Japanese government said about future investment in the UK this week? Did you see the economic forecasts for the NE in the case of a No Deal or WTO Brexit? It doesn’t take a genius to see where certain parts of the country are heading should the Tories fail to get a good deal.

    Except for your silly personal digs at the 'privileged' Brexiteers you make interesting comments. I'd be more annoyed at the privileged establishment which utterly failed in 2016 to make a case for the EU.

    The referendum campaign was largely dominated by wealthy Tories telling lies to the voters. That was to be expected. What I find most unforgiveable is the attitude of the Labour leadership. As he showed last May and June, Corbyn could have galvanised younger voters to come out and vote Remain. He went on holiday instead. That is contemptible.

    You’d rather he campaign for something he doesn’t believe in?
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,368
    It will be more interesting if someone sticks the "knife" in. Those types really get the crown.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 18,555

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:


    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the voters decided the political compromises, including FOM, were not worth it

    They did. We’ll find out over the coming years if they were right. As the Japanese have made very clear, if the Tories cannot get a good Brexit deal a lot of well-paid jobs that sustain a number of communities in Leave voting areas are at substantial risk. But you’ll be fine, Charles, so that’s some relief, at least.

    You have a very unpleasant way of personalising things

    Reality is reality, Charles. Brexit will have almost no impact on you and your family. Millions of others are not in that fortunate position. However unpleasant it is to make, I think it is an important point: wealthy, privileged advocates of leaving the EU will not have to live with the consequences of what happens should it go wrong.

    It’s not that compelling a point but if you feel the need to make it then do so in the abstract not the specific

    Of course it’s not a compelling point for you. But I always find specific examples are better than abstract arguments as they are rooted in reality.

    I would politely ask you not to use me as a “specific example” as you know very little about my financial situation

    You have shared with us all on a number of occasions that you are an Eton-educated member of a very wealthy family with deep roots in the establishment and that you do very well remunerated consultancy work for businesses on an international basis.

    As someone who has received his due share of personalised comments, I think @Charles should not be singled out in this way. It does not improve your argument. Charles is not standing for elected office so his personal circumstances aren’t relevant to any wider point. Nor is he demonstrating any hypocrisy or personal inconsistency.

    PB benefits from people sharing something of themselves (as you do also). They should not feel constantly that anything they share might be used against them.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 18,555
    IanB2 said:

    David has a touching faith in the judgement of the electorate that thought IDS was the right choice.

    You need to sort out your tenses: “... that think IDS was the right choice”.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 20,010

    felix said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the voters decided the political compromises, including FOM, were not worth it

    They did. We’ll find be fine, Charles, so that’s some relief, at least.

    Why spoil a perfectly sound point with the personal dig. Just diminishes your point.

    Because the cake and eat its to.

    There youall parties making all sorts of dubious claims. Time to move on.

    I am moving on. Did you hear what the Japanese government said about future investment in the UK this week? Did you see the economic forecasts for the NE in the case of a No Deal or WTO Brexit? It doesn’t take a genius to see where certain parts of the country are heading should the Tories fail to get a good deal.

    Except for your silly personal digs at the 'privileged' Brexiteers you make interesting comments. I'd be more annoyed at the privileged establishment which utterly failed in 2016 to make a case for the EU.

    The referendum campaign was largely dominated by wealthy Tories telling lies to the voters. That was to be expected. What I find most unforgiveable is the attitude of the Labour leadership. As he showed last May and June, Corbyn could have galvanised younger voters to come out and vote Remain. He went on holiday instead. That is contemptible.

    Why should one expect a lifelong opponent of the EU to campaign for Remain? The fault rests with Labour Remainers who voted for him, not with Corbyn himself.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,553

    On topic - there are no Tory leadership candidates that a halfwsy decent opposition should have any cause to fear. The runners and riders David identifies goes to show just how devoid of talent the Conservative party is. With Corbyn in charge of Labour, though, the Tories are guaranteed power. It’s terrible news for the country. What an abysmal choice voters have.

    And all ths while we hurtle down the toilet towards Brexit. Time for all those who can afford it to make an exit
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,714
    Hammond not even worth a mention
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 8,497
    Charles said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the voters decided the political compromises, including FOM, were not worth it

    They did. We’ll find be fine, Charles, so that’s some relief, at least.

    Why spoil a perfectly sound point with the personal dig. Just diminishes your point.

    Because the cake and eat its to.

    There youall parties making all sorts of dubious claims. Time to move on.

    I am moving on. Did you hear what the Japanese government said about future investment in the UK this week? Did you see the economic forecasts for the NE in the case of a No Deal or WTO Brexit? It doesn’t take a genius to see where certain parts of the country are heading should the Tories fail to get a good deal.

    Except for your silly personal digs at the 'privileged' Brexiteers you make interesting comments. I'd be more annoyed at the privileged establishment which utterly failed in 2016 to make a case for the EU.

    The referendum campaign was largely dominated by wealthy Tories telling lies to the voters. That was to be expected. What I find most unforgiveable is the attitude of the Labour leadership. As he showed last May and June, Corbyn could have galvanised younger voters to come out and vote Remain. He went on holiday instead. That is contemptible.

    You’d rather he campaign for something he doesn’t believe in?
    He had no objection in 2017. What changed in the intervening 12 months?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 18,668

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:


    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the voters decided the political compromises, including FOM, were not worth it

    They did. We’ll find out over the coming years if they were right. As the Japanese have made very clear, if the Tories cannot get a good Brexit deal a lot of well-paid jobs that sustain a number of communities in Leave voting areas are at substantial risk. But you’ll be fine, Charles, so that’s some relief, at least.

    You have a very unpleasant way of personalising things

    Reality is reality, Charles. Brexit will have almost no impact on you and your family. Millions of others are not in that fortunate position. However unpleasant it is to make, I think it is an important point: wealthy, privileged advocates of leaving the EU will not have to live with the consequences of what happens should it go wrong.

    It’s not that compelling a point but if you feel the need to make it then do so in the abstract not the specific

    Of course it’s not a compelling point for you. But I always find specific examples are better than abstract arguments as they are rooted in reality.

    I would politely ask you not to use me as a “specific example” as you know very little about my financial situation

    You have shared with us all on a number of occasions that you are an Eton-educated member of a very wealthy family with deep roots in the establishment and that you do very well remunerated consultancy work for businesses on an international basis.

    As someone who has received his due share of personalised comments, I think @Charles should not be singled out in this way. It does not improve your argument. Charles is not standing for elected office so his personal circumstances aren’t relevant to any wider point. Nor is he demonstrating any hypocrisy or personal inconsistency.

    PB benefits from people sharing something of themselves (as you do also). They should not feel constantly that anything they share might be used against them.
    Thank you
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 18,668
    ydoethur said:

    Charles said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the voters decided the political compromises, including FOM, were not worth it

    They did. We’ll find be fine, Charles, so that’s some relief, at least.

    Why spoil a perfectly sound point with the personal dig. Just diminishes your point.

    Because the cake and eat its to.

    There youall parties making all sorts of dubious claims. Time to move on.

    I am moving on. Did you hear what the Japanese government said about future investment in the UK this week? Did you see the economic forecasts for the NE in the case of a No Deal or WTO Brexit? It doesn’t take a genius to see where certain parts of the country are heading should the Tories fail to get a good deal.

    Except for your silly personal digs at the 'privileged' Brexiteers you make interesting comments. I'd be more annoyed at the privileged establishment which utterly failed in 2016 to make a case for the EU.

    The referendum campaign was largely dominated by wealthy Tories telling lies to the voters. That was to be expected. What I find most unforgiveable is the attitude of the Labour leadership. As he showed last May and June, Corbyn could have galvanised younger voters to come out and vote Remain. He went on holiday instead. That is contemptible.

    You’d rather he campaign for something he doesn’t believe in?
    He had no objection in 2017. What changed in the intervening 12 months?
    He didn’t really talk about the EU in the GE though. If people chose to project onto that blank space that’s their fault
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 18,668
    Jonathan said:

    Hammond not even worth a mention

    He’s not got a hope. He would have been a good Chief Secretary but that should have been his limit
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,553
    felix said:

    Trump tells Israel it needs to make 'significant compromises' for peace with Palestinians
    Independent

    No more than a sign that he's having to say ever more preposterous things to get attention.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 8,497
    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    Charles said:

    You’d rather he campaign for something he doesn’t believe in?

    He had no objection in 2017. What changed in the intervening 12 months?
    He didn’t really talk about the EU in the GE though. If people chose to project onto that blank space that’s their fault
    I wasn't even thinking about the EU. I was thinking about tuition fees, trident, welfare cuts, police numbers...
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 5,892
    felix said:

    Except for your silly personal digs at the 'privileged' Brexiteers you make interesting comments. I'd be more annoyed at the privileged establishment which utterly failed in 2016 to make a case for the EU.

    That fails on logic. Many Remainers are very logical people. The Remain campaign made predictions, that, while over-egged, will broadly pan out. Meanwhile the Leave campaign came out with complete nonsense but nevertheless carried the day. Why should we blame those that were more real.

    There's a reason why most of those that know what they are talking about, the disparaged experts, supported staying in the EU. Many Leavers operate on faith or intuition, and that's OK, assume Remainers must also build the reality from the belief. But it's not our project. We are more sceptical and so work from the evidence.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 8,497
    Roger said:

    felix said:

    Trump tells Israel it needs to make 'significant compromises' for peace with Palestinians
    Independent

    No more than a sign that he's having to say ever more preposterous things to get attention.
    In fairness Roger that's not in itself a preposterous thing to say. Unless you accept the O'Malley view that peace in the land from the river to the sea is actually impossible.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,553
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the UK doesn't want to be part of a Federal Europe, which is the ultimate destination for the EU? If that happened the UK would be ultimately feeble, having lost all of its sovereignty.

    The UK is going to be beholden to others whatever course we choose to take - the Chinese, the Americans and the EU will essentially be dictating our future. Absolute sovereignty is no solution to anything in and of itself.

    I'm amazed how any of the other independent countries in the world actually manage. Japan, for example, the country you mentioned that was warning the UK about its future direction.
    I think North Korea would have been a better example
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 1,888

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the voters decided the political compromises, including FOM, were not worth it

    They did. We’ll find out over the coming years if they were right. As the Japanese have made very clear, if the Tories cannot get a good Brexit deal a lot of well-paid jobs that sustain a number of communities in Leave voting areas are at substantial risk. But you’ll be fine, Charles, so that’s some relief, at least.

    You have a very unpleasant way of personalising things

    Reality is reality, Charles. Brexit will have almost no impact on you and your family. Millions of others are not in that fortunate position. However unpleasant it is to make, I think it is an important point: wealthy, privileged advocates of leaving the EU will not have to live with the consequences of what happens should it go wrong.

    It’s not that compelling a point but if you feel the need to make it then do so in the abstract not the specific

    Of course it’s not a compelling point for you. But I always find specific examples are better than abstract arguments as they are rooted in reality.

    I would politely ask you not to use me as a “specific example” as you know very little about my financial situation

    You have shared with us all on a number of occasions that you are an Eton-educated member of a very wealthy family with deep roots in the establishment and that you do very well remunerated consultancy work for businesses on an international basis.

    Though I prefer to believe he's a cab driver from Deptford.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 40,653
    Good morning, everyone.

    Gove *and* Boris making the final three would be interesting. Would raise the rather obvious question about one of them deserting the other on the basis he wasn't up to the job...
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 18,467

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the voters decided the political compromises, including FOM, were not worth it

    They did. We’ll find out over the coming years if they were right. As the Japanese have made very clear, if the Tories cannot get a good Brexit deal a lot of well-paid jobs that sustain a number of communities in Leave voting areas are at substantial risk. But you’ll be fine, Charles, so that’s some relief, at least.

    You have a very unpleasant way of personalising things

    Reality is reality, Charles. Brexit will have almost no impact on you and your family. Millions of others are not in that fortunate position. However unpleasant it is to make, I think it is an important point: wealthy, privileged advocates of leaving the EU will not have to live with the consequences of what happens should it go wrong.

    It’s not that compelling a point but if you feel the need to make it then do so in the abstract not the specific

    Of course it’s not a compelling point for you. But I always find specific examples are better than abstract arguments as they are rooted in reality.

    I would politely ask you not to use me as a “specific example” as you know very little about my financial situation

    You have shared with us all on a number of occasions that you are an Eton-educated member of a very wealthy family with deep roots in the establishment and that you do very well remunerated consultancy work for businesses on an international basis.

    Though I prefer to believe he's a cab driver from Deptford.
    He's got a very nice gaff, though.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 18,668

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the voters decided the political compromises, including FOM, were not worth it

    They did. We’ll find out over the coming years if they were right. As the Japanese have made very clear, if the Tories cannot get a good Brexit deal a lot of well-paid jobs that sustain a number of communities in Leave voting areas are at substantial risk. But you’ll be fine, Charles, so that’s some relief, at least.

    You have a very unpleasant way of personalising things

    Reality is reality, Charles. Brexit will have almost no impact on you and your family. Millions of others are not in that fortunate position. However unpleasant it is to make, I think it is an important point: wealthy, privileged advocates of leaving the EU will not have to live with the consequences of what happens should it go wrong.

    It’s not that compelling a point but if you feel the need to make it then do so in the abstract not the specific

    Of course it’s not a compelling point for you. But I always find specific examples are better than abstract arguments as they are rooted in reality.

    I would politely ask you not to use me as a “specific example” as you know very little about my financial situation

    You have shared with us all on a number of occasions that you are an Eton-educated member of a very wealthy family with deep roots in the establishment and that you do very well remunerated consultancy work for businesses on an international basis.

    Though I prefer to believe he's a cab driver from Deptford.
    That’s not impossible. After all @JackW is 107
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 791

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:


    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the voters decided the political compromises, including FOM, were not worth it

    They did. We’ll find out over the coming years if they were right. As the Japanese have made very clear, if the Tories cannot get a good Brexit deal a lot of well-paid jobs that sustain a number of communities in Leave voting areas are at substantial risk. But you’ll be fine, Charles, so that’s some relief, at least.

    You have a very unpleasant way of personalising things

    Reality is reality,

    It’s not that compelling a point but if you feel the need to make it then do so in the abstract not the specific

    Of course it’s not a compelling point for you. But I always find specific examples are better than abstract arguments as they are rooted in reality.

    I would politely ask you not to use me as a “specific example” as you know very little about my financial situation

    You have shared with us all on a number of occasions that you are an Eton-educated member of a very wealthy family with deep roots in the establishment and that you do very well remunerated consultancy work for businesses on an international basis.

    As someone who has received his due share of personalised comments, I think @Charles should not be singled out in this way. It does not improve your argument. Charles is not standing for elected office so his personal circumstances aren’t relevant to any wider point. Nor is he demonstrating any hypocrisy or personal inconsistency.

    PB benefits from people sharing something of themselves (as you do also). They should not feel constantly that anything they share might be used against them.
    While I agree, those of us in secure professional jobs including myself are pretty well insulated from the shocks of Brexit. SO is in the West Midlands, and in an export orientated sector of the economy as I recall.

    It is rather like the bacon and the egg. The chicken is involved but the pig is commited.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,714
    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Hammond not even worth a mention

    He’s not got a hope. He would have been a good Chief Secretary but that should have been his limit
    The Tory CoE not got a hope of leadership ? I doubt you'll find a better illustration of what's wrong with this government.
  • @Charles - on reflection, I realise I was wrong to make the personal comments I did earlier. I should not have done it and I apologise. I could and should have made my points without bringing you into it. For what it’s worth, I enjoy your posts and insights - however much I disagree with them - while I wish there were a lot more businesses in this country like your family’s. I am not a hater by nature and I ask you to treat this morning’s little episode as an aberration. My only excuse is a bad night’s sleep!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 18,668
    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Hammond not even worth a mention

    He’s not got a hope. He would have been a good Chief Secretary but that should have been his limit
    The Tory CoE not got a hope of leadership ? I doubt you'll find a better illustration of what's wrong with this government.
    He’s been overpromoted. It happens.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 40,653
    F1: hmm. A race date in WEC is moved so that Alonso can do all of them.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/43009816

    Not in favour of changing the calendar to accommodate an individual driver.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 18,668

    @Charles - on reflection, I realise I was wrong to make the personal comments I did earlier. I should not have done it and I apologise. I could and should have made my points without bringing you into it. For what it’s worth, I enjoy your posts and insights - however much I disagree with them - while I wish there were a lot more businesses in this country like your family’s. I am not a hater by nature and I ask you to treat this morning’s little episode as an aberration. My only excuse is a bad night’s sleep!

    Thank you. Forgotten already
  • MetatronMetatron Posts: 111
    The Tories need someone who might inspire people to join their party.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 8,497
    Metatron said:

    The Tories need someone who might inspire people to join their party.

    Er, no. They need someone who can run the country effectively. The last thing we need right now is another shallow opportunist like Corbyn.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,714
    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Hammond not even worth a mention

    He’s not got a hope. He would have been a good Chief Secretary but that should have been his limit
    The Tory CoE not got a hope of leadership ? I doubt you'll find a better illustration of what's wrong with this government.
    He’s been overpromoted. It happens.
    And yet, unsackable. The CoE should always be a potential leader, otherwise they shouldn't have the job.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,714
    Metatron said:

    The Tories need someone who might inspire people to join their party.

    A Corbyn .
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,872
    On topic, this is an excellent thread header. The resilience of Boris in the betting markets surprises me; clearly, he's felt to have some sort of box-office appeal others lack. I'm on both Gove and Hunt. I wouldn't rule out Williamson either, but his present odds are too short. The other one I'm keeping an eye on is McVey, but I suspect she's too behind the curve and a bit too uncompromising to run, notwithstanding she'd have to do so from the DWP.

    Hammond doesn't feature not because of his views on the EU, but because of his utter tin ear for politics. Tim Shipman's book "Fallout" makes this very clear, and I'd recommend that to anyone who is yet to read it.

    Nor would I rule out JRM because of his views on the EU. He cuts through as well as any other Tory these days. He always engages. He patiently and confidently argues his case from first principles - something which far too many Tories have no clue how to do - and treats everyone with respect. He wins a lot of admiration in doing so, even from his opponents. I also think he is smart - far more so than Corbyn will ever be - if a little eccentric and probably inclined to put the purity of his principles above pragmatism more often than he should.

    However, he is too short at current odds and I have never seen any hint of ambition in him for the top job. But, make no mistake: he is a huge asset to the Conservative Party.
  • Charles said:

    @Charles - on reflection, I realise I was wrong to make the personal comments I did earlier. I should not have done it and I apologise. I could and should have made my points without bringing you into it. For what it’s worth, I enjoy your posts and insights - however much I disagree with them - while I wish there were a lot more businesses in this country like your family’s. I am not a hater by nature and I ask you to treat this morning’s little episode as an aberration. My only excuse is a bad night’s sleep!

    Thank you. Forgotten already

    Thank-you!!

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 8,497
    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Hammond not even worth a mention

    He’s not got a hope. He would have been a good Chief Secretary but that should have been his limit
    The Tory CoE not got a hope of leadership ? I doubt you'll find a better illustration of what's wrong with this government.
    He’s been overpromoted. It happens.
    And yet, unsackable. The CoE should always be a potential leader, otherwise they shouldn't have the job.
    Lawson?

    Admittedly the other example I can think of is Anthony Barber which would go some way towards supporting your point...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 22,872

    @Charles - on reflection, I realise I was wrong to make the personal comments I did earlier. I should not have done it and I apologise. I could and should have made my points without bringing you into it. For what it’s worth, I enjoy your posts and insights - however much I disagree with them - while I wish there were a lot more businesses in this country like your family’s. I am not a hater by nature and I ask you to treat this morning’s little episode as an aberration. My only excuse is a bad night’s sleep!

    A welcome post.

    Not that it's my place to say, but it's refreshing to see so many regular posters I immensely respect acting like grown-ups on here this morning.

    Very welcome.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 791
    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Hammond not even worth a mention

    He’s not got a hope. He would have been a good Chief Secretary but that should have been his limit
    The Tory CoE not got a hope of leadership ? I doubt you'll find a better illustration of what's wrong with this government.
    I think the split in the cabinet is too log jammed for there to be a coherent set of instructions to our negotiating team. Something that should have been sorted a year ago remains unsorted. One or other faction needs to go.

    Interesting piece here btw, relevant to the header:

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 18,668
    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Hammond not even worth a mention

    He’s not got a hope. He would have been a good Chief Secretary but that should have been his limit
    The Tory CoE not got a hope of leadership ? I doubt you'll find a better illustration of what's wrong with this government.
    He’s been overpromoted. It happens.
    And yet, unsackable. The CoE should always be a potential leader, otherwise they shouldn't have the job.
    Not necessarily. The best governments have a team at the top
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 10,845
    IanB2 said:

    David has a touching faith in the judgement of the electorate that thought IDS was the right choice.

    At least we can have a more weary (and wary) faith in the larger electorate who thought he was a shit choice.
  • @Charles - on reflection, I realise I was wrong to make the personal comments I did earlier. I should not have done it and I apologise. I could and should have made my points without bringing you into it. For what it’s worth, I enjoy your posts and insights - however much I disagree with them - while I wish there were a lot more businesses in this country like your family’s. I am not a hater by nature and I ask you to treat this morning’s little episode as an aberration. My only excuse is a bad night’s sleep!

    Well done you
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,714
    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Hammond not even worth a mention

    He’s not got a hope. He would have been a good Chief Secretary but that should have been his limit
    The Tory CoE not got a hope of leadership ? I doubt you'll find a better illustration of what's wrong with this government.
    He’s been overpromoted. It happens.
    And yet, unsackable. The CoE should always be a potential leader, otherwise they shouldn't have the job.
    Not necessarily. The best governments have a team at the top
    The person in charge of the nations finances not even a long shot for the top job? Something is wrong.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,553
    edited February 10

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the voters decided the political compromises, including FOM, were not worth it

    They did. We’ll find out over the coming years if they were right. As the Japanese have made very clear, if the Tories cannot get a good Brexit deal a lot of well-paid jobs that sustain a number of communities in Leave voting areas are at substantial risk. But you’ll be fine, Charles, so that’s some relief, at least.

    You have a very unpleasant way of personalising things

    Reality is reality, Charles. Brexit will have almost no impact on you and your family. Millions of others are not in that fortunate position. However unpleasant it is to make, I think it is an important point: wealthy, privileged advocates of leaving the EU will not have to live with the consequences of what happens should it go wrong.

    On the contrary I think the cosmopolitan city dwellers wil notice the isolation most. If all you do is spend your time in a bingo hall in Hartlipool your only interaction with the the free moving Europeans is what you read on your fish and chip wrapper.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 8,497
    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Hammond not even worth a mention

    He’s not got a hope. He would have been a good Chief Secretary but that should have been his limit
    The Tory CoE not got a hope of leadership ? I doubt you'll find a better illustration of what's wrong with this government.
    He’s been overpromoted. It happens.
    And yet, unsackable. The CoE should always be a potential leader, otherwise they shouldn't have the job.
    Not necessarily. The best governments have a team at the top
    I'm intrigued. Which government has had a 'team' that didn't fight like ferrets in a sack?

    I can think of Brown and Chamberlain, who sacked all the naysayers and put colourless makeweights in instead. However neither is a happy precedent.

    I would have said the best governments have strong, talented figures with independent power bases who can stand up to the PM when they are wrong. In that I am supported by Baldwin, who said that Chamberlain's problem was he had nobody to offer him another view (he said that Chamberlain himself had done that for him).

    Of course it can go too far - look at Blair and Brown. But the fact Clegg had an independent power base and an alternative perspective was one reason why the Coalition for all its faults was the best government of the last thirty years.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 18,668
    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Hammond not even worth a mention

    He’s not got a hope. He would have been a good Chief Secretary but that should have been his limit
    The Tory CoE not got a hope of leadership ? I doubt you'll find a better illustration of what's wrong with this government.
    He’s been overpromoted. It happens.
    And yet, unsackable. The CoE should always be a potential leader, otherwise they shouldn't have the job.
    Not necessarily. The best governments have a team at the top
    The person in charge of the nations finances not even a long shot for the top job? Something is wrong.
    Different skills are needed.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,553
    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    felix said:

    Trump tells Israel it needs to make 'significant compromises' for peace with Palestinians
    Independent

    No more than a sign that he's having to say ever more preposterous things to get attention.
    In fairness Roger that's not in itself a preposterous thing to say. Unless you accept the O'Malley view that peace in the land from the river to the sea is actually impossible.
    What he said wasn't preposterous but that he said it when he clearly doesn't believe it nor has any intention of making it happen was.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 18,668
    ydoethur said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Hammond not even worth a mention

    He’s not got a hope. He would have been a good Chief Secretary but that should have been his limit
    The Tory CoE not got a hope of leadership ? I doubt you'll find a better illustration of what's wrong with this government.
    He’s been overpromoted. It happens.
    And yet, unsackable. The CoE should always be a potential leader, otherwise they shouldn't have the job.
    Not necessarily. The best governments have a team at the top
    I'm intrigued. Which government has had a 'team' that didn't fight like ferrets in a sack?

    I can think of Brown and Chamberlain, who sacked all the naysayers and put colourless makeweights in instead. However neither is a happy precedent.

    I would have said the best governments have strong, talented figures with independent power bases who can stand up to the PM when they are wrong. In that I am supported by Baldwin, who said that Chamberlain's problem was he had nobody to offer him another view (he said that Chamberlain himself had done that for him).

    Of course it can go too far - look at Blair and Brown. But the fact Clegg had an independent power base and an alternative perspective was one reason why the Coalition for all its faults was the best government of the last thirty years.
    I was thinking the top 2 jobs specifically

    Cameron/Osborne
    Thatcher/Lawson (until it stopped working)
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,368
    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Hammond not even worth a mention

    He’s not got a hope. He would have been a good Chief Secretary but that should have been his limit
    The Tory CoE not got a hope of leadership ? I doubt you'll find a better illustration of what's wrong with this government.
    He’s been overpromoted. It happens.
    And yet, unsackable. The CoE should always be a potential leader, otherwise they shouldn't have the job.
    Not necessarily. The best governments have a team at the top
    The person in charge of the nations finances not even a long shot for the top job? Something is wrong.
    With the previous history of Brown becoming Prime Minister. Chancellor to PM is not a good route Having Brown in any job was a bad idea.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 8,497
    Roger said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the voters decided the political compromises, including FOM, were not worth it

    They did. We’ll find out over the coming years if they were right. As the Japanese have made very clear, if the Tories cannot get a good Brexit deal a lot of well-paid jobs that sustain a number of communities in Leave voting areas are at substantial risk. But you’ll be fine, Charles, so that’s some relief, at least.

    You have a very unpleasant way of personalising things

    Reality is reality, Charles. Brexit will have almost no impact on you and your family. Millions of others are not in that fortunate position. However unpleasant it is to make, I think it is an important point: wealthy, privileged advocates of leaving the EU will not have to live with the consequences of what happens should it go wrong.

    On the contrary I think the cosmopolitan city dwellers wil notice the isolation most. If all you do is spend your time in a bingo hall in Hartlipool your only interaction with the the free moving Europeans is what you read on your fish and chip wrapper.
    In Hartlepool possibly, for major agricultural areas however I would say that you're wrong. There may be fewer migrants in total in North West Gloucestershire than in London, but because there are not many people anyway they are more noticeable.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 8,497

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Hammond not even worth a mention

    He’s not got a hope. He would have been a good Chief Secretary but that should have been his limit
    The Tory CoE not got a hope of leadership ? I doubt you'll find a better illustration of what's wrong with this government.
    He’s been overpromoted. It happens.
    And yet, unsackable. The CoE should always be a potential leader, otherwise they shouldn't have the job.
    Not necessarily. The best governments have a team at the top
    The person in charge of the nations finances not even a long shot for the top job? Something is wrong.
    With the previous history of Brown becoming Prime Minister. Chancellor to PM is not a good route Having Brown in any job was a bad idea.
    Would have been quite funny to see him as Foreign Secretary after 2001. Can you imagine him at the UN with Chirac over Iraq?
  • Knuckles-dragging against the cobblestones,
    Insults and begrudging curses fly.
    Enter the thread of the :tumbleweed:.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 2,663

    felix said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Second. Like the rate the UK will be after Brexit.

    Better than being subsumed into a United States of Europe. Then we'd have no rate whatsoever.
    I'd rather have a bigger pond to swim in. But if you prefer to think small can I suggest Easter Island.
    What's bigger than the rest of the world?

    Why is it that the UK is so feeble it cannot do what other big EU member states do and engage with the whole world while being an integral part of the biggest free trade zone on the planet? Why do we - uniquely - have to make a choice instead of having it all?

    Because the voters decided the political compromises, including FOM, were not worth it

    They did. We’ll find be fine, Charles, so that’s some relief, at least.

    Why spoil a perfectly sound point with the personal dig. Just diminishes your point.

    Because the cake and eat its to.

    There youall parties making all sorts of dubious claims. Time to move on.

    I am moving on. Did you hear what the Japanese government said about future investment in the UK this week? Did you see the economic forecasts for the NE in the case of a No Deal or WTO Brexit? It doesn’t take a genius to see where certain parts of the country are heading should the Tories fail to get a good deal.

    Except for your silly personal digs at the 'privileged' Brexiteers you make interesting comments. I'd be more annoyed at the privileged establishment which utterly failed in 2016 to make a case for the EU.

    The referendum campaign was largely dominated by wealthy Tories telling lies to the voters. That was to be expected. What I find most unforgiveable is the attitude of the Labour leadership. As he showed last May and June, Corbyn could have galvanised younger voters to come out and vote Remain. He went on holiday instead. That is contemptible.

    If true, I would not call Corbyn contemptible, more like bloody marvellous.
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