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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The day of the husky?

SystemSystem Posts: 5,841
edited February 18 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The day of the husky?

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  • FF43FF43 Posts: 6,425
    First husky
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 2,675
    Second like the Tories will be in 2022 :smile:
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,960
    Politics has gone to the dogs.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 6,425
    edited February 18
    Interesting article. Support for the environment ties into the anti-globalisation mood. Citizen of nowhere types can on this view damage the environment with impunity. This ignores the fact that all pollution and animal cruelty ultimately is local and that multilateral international action can nudge standards up.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,465
    Is this a coded tip-off to expect something really crass from the Labour front bench in coming days?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,960
    image

    Certainly the route the French Socialists are taking to dig themselves out the mire. Not sure it's working. Not sure much could.


    http://www.parti-socialiste.fr/
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 9,629
    I think sledging should be banned on here
  • MetatronMetatron Posts: 123
    And climate sceptics are being left homeless.....come back UKIP the only party who have questioned whether the whole `man made global warming` is a scam.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,960
    edited February 18
    Metatron said:

    And climate sceptics are being left homeless.....come back UKIP the only party who have questioned whether the whole `man made global warming` is a scam.

    The amount of hot air and friction from the never ending UKIP leadership campaigns has rather proven the point.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 1,788
    Off Topic:

    I can highly recommend to PB film buffs the new version of Journeys End. The original play in 1928 was alongside All Quiet on the Western Front as a critique of the conduct of WW1, written by a veteran. It is important in understanding the antiwar movement of the Thirties, and why appeasement was a popular policy. Very powerfully acted and directed:



  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 14,077
    Interesting thread. Worth noting that the fox hunting and ivory ban issues are supposed to have got serious traction during the last GE. Especially on social media.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 5,006
    EYECATCHER SO I CAN FIND THIS LATER

    @YBarddCwsc, @Sandpit, you make bloody good points on the previous thread, but I don't know the solution.

    Over the past five years my freelance jobs have taken a rather weird step regarding predictions and their measurement, and I have the scars on my back to tell you that models used to predict future events are rarely assessed by modellers for accuracy against the actual outcome[1], and that non-modelling-based predictions are discarded and forgotten as soon as the event occurs, with the predictor cherry-picking the correct ones to burnish his rep (Roger Bootle is a case in point, although he only stands out because Capital Economics made such an arse of predicting house prices in the Noughties: I think all predictors do this and it's not fair to single out him).

    We only spot the weirdness because opinion-poll data is easily available. But in most other cases it is not. For example, tell me what Deutsche Bank predictions were in 2004 for the pound in 2005? Pantheon Macroeconomic's predictions for growth in 2014? Moody Analytics's predictions in December 2015 of the 2016 POTUS election? Ladbroke's odds on April 1st on a Conservative victory in March? This stuff is subscription only or listed on dynamic websites that change from moment-to-moment and is ('scuse my French) fucking difficult to capture.

    Somebody on here (it might be @Philip_Thompson, but my memory is poor) insists that betting odds on Reagan and Bush the Elder being nominated as GOP Potus candidate were good predictors of the outcome. But I need sources to believe that and he does not provide them (he may be working from memory), which leaves me tearing my hair out in frustration.

    We don't have widely available sources to predictions to measure their accuracy. If you (or others) were willing to pay me money for the subscriptions (and that's going to easily hit 5-10K) and were willing to sign off my CPD log then I'd happily build one for you. But until that time we'll have the same problem.

    Rant over. You may now all return to slagging off Brexit or whatever this week's idee fixe is... :(

    NOTE

    [1] This needs explaining. Instead of the previous model being assessed, it's more a case of new models being built using up-to-date data: the previous model is effectively discarded. When you combine that with the tendency of modellers to use qualitative criteria (simplicity, plausibility, etc) to select models, and the tendency to use criteria that don't actually consider the dependent variable (smoothness of the weights thru the range, compatibility with the previous model, plausibility again), it becomes horribly apparent that accuracy is actually irrelevant.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,465
    FPT, the reference to Margin Call - we have been blessed with two excellent films about the financial crash, with The Big Short my favourite of the two.

    And I know I have mentioned it before, but Ikarus is an outstanding - and astounding - documentary about Russian drug cheating in sport.
  • RhubarbRhubarb Posts: 330
    Metatron said:

    And climate sceptics are being left homeless.....come back UKIP the only party who have questioned whether the whole `man made global warming` is a scam.

    I'm not sure it's that black and white - green issues go beyond climate change and there will be a 'David Bellamy' block who could be attracted by action in some other areas even while they continue to oppose action around climate change.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,713
    Interesting thread. Thank you Nick.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,417
    edited February 18
    Great thread Nick, thanks. Reading the highlighted Gove speech, he took only six weeks to be utterly on top of his brief at DEFRA. That’s seriously impressive.

    Personally I’m torn between wanting him to get a promotion to No.11, and the huge needs of his current department with the changes of the next couple of years.

    He’s the sort of person who as Chancellor would get income tax and NI unified, and be prepared to think the unthinkable with regard to a whole load of problems that have been put in the too-difficult box by governments of all colours for decades.
  • hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,482
    Metatron said:

    And climate sceptics are being left homeless.....come back UKIP the only party who have questioned whether the whole `man made global warming` is a scam.

    Never mind that we've had global cooling over the past few years, record snow amounts in lots of places in the Northern Hemisphere over the past winter and many cold records broken. Antarctic ice at record extents since measurements began (funny how we don't hear about that!). Arctic ice recovering significantly since 2012 - according to Al Gore it was all going to be gone by now - oh dear! And we should have a good blast of the beast from the east in place by next weekend.

    An enlightened government would be preparing the population for the oncoming grand solar minimum in 2024 and mini ice age conditions to come, which are going to threaten global food supplies. There's as much chance of this happening under any government in the UK as Barnet winning the premiership by 2030.

    Follow the money and see that our current government collects in the order of £45,000 million from CO2 based taxes, on a completely false prospectus. What a crazy world we live in.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 1,788
    Sandpit said:

    Great thread Nick, thanks. Reading the highlighted Gove speech, he took only six weeks to be utterly on top of his brief at DEFRA. That’s seriously impressive.

    Personally I’m torn between wanting him to get a promotion to No.11, and the huge needs of his current department with the changes of the next couple of years.

    He’s the sort of person who as Chancellor would get income tax and NI unified, and be prepared to think the unthinkable with regard to a whole load of problems that have been put in the too-difficult box by governments of all colours for decades.

    His ideas are sometimes sound, but he is very poor at the more prosaic work of delivery. That requires a bit more diplomacy and attention to detail than he can muster.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 5,006

    FPT, the reference to Margin Call - we have been blessed with two excellent films about the financial crash, with The Big Short my favourite of the two.

    And I know I have mentioned it before, but Ikarus is an outstanding - and astounding - documentary about Russian drug cheating in sport.

    I'll bear that in mind, thank you.
  • Sandpit said:

    Great thread Nick, thanks. Reading the highlighted Gove speech, he took only six weeks to be utterly on top of his brief at DEFRA. That’s seriously impressive.

    Personally I’m torn between wanting him to get a promotion to No.11, and the huge needs of his current department with the changes of the next couple of years.

    He’s the sort of person who as Chancellor would get income tax and NI unified, and be prepared to think the unthinkable with regard to a whole load of problems that have been put in the too-difficult box by governments of all colours for decades.

    With Gove, his problem is rarely a lack of understanding of the brief, it is that he could start an argument in an empty lift and you feel like he actually really enjoys doing so.
  • hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,482
    Rhubarb said:

    Metatron said:

    And climate sceptics are being left homeless.....come back UKIP the only party who have questioned whether the whole `man made global warming` is a scam.

    I'm not sure it's that black and white - green issues go beyond climate change and there will be a 'David Bellamy' block who could be attracted by action in some other areas even while they continue to oppose action around climate change.
    The tragedy is that there is a lot of genuine environmental issues that urgently require addressing - plastic waste, loss of habitat, nuclear waste......but nobody will be listening after the whole agenda has been side tracked by the sham that is global warming.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 5,006
    @NickPalmer

    A good, if depressing, thread Nick.

    IMHO if the government hasn't got any big issues to sort out it should concentrate on doing what is does better, not looking for a New Big Thing to obsess about. The implementation of Universal Credit is a good theory being derailed by bad implementation, and that should be addressed with some urgency. I know animal welfare is an interest of yours (and speaks well of you) but it is really not a priority. One of the reasons why I prefer a smaller government (but not Parliament) is that it's always looking to do something new: I really wish it'd stop.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 19,334
    "So why are the parties suddenly working so hard on environment and animal welfare issues?"

    Because they are relatively unimportant ephemera. They're the cheap and easy things to do (governmentally) when the spectre of Brexit is hanging overhead.

    Distraction politics at its best/worst depending on your viewpoint.

    Cynical, me? ;)
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 14,077
    hunchman said:

    Metatron said:

    And climate sceptics are being left homeless.....come back UKIP the only party who have questioned whether the whole `man made global warming` is a scam.

    Never mind that we've had global cooling over the past few years, record snow amounts in lots of places in the Northern Hemisphere over the past winter and many cold records broken. Antarctic ice at record extents since measurements began (funny how we don't hear about that!). Arctic ice recovering significantly since 2012 - according to Al Gore it was all going to be gone by now - oh dear! And we should have a good blast of the beast from the east in place by next weekend.

    An enlightened government would be preparing the population for the oncoming grand solar minimum in 2024 and mini ice age conditions to come, which are going to threaten global food supplies. There's as much chance of this happening under any government in the UK as Barnet winning the premiership by 2030.

    Follow the money and see that our current government collects in the order of £45,000 million from CO2 based taxes, on a completely false prospectus. What a crazy world we live in.
    Where are you getting your sea ice figures for Arctic? Record lows this last month:

    https://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/charctic-interactive-sea-ice-graph/
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,676
    Sandpit said:

    Great thread Nick, thanks. Reading the highlighted Gove speech, he took only six weeks to be utterly on top of his brief at DEFRA. That’s seriously impressive.

    Personally I’m torn between wanting him to get a promotion to No.11, and the huge needs of his current department with the changes of the next couple of years.

    He’s the sort of person who as Chancellor would get income tax and NI unified, and be prepared to think the unthinkable with regard to a whole load of problems that have been put in the too-difficult box by governments of all colours for decades.

    We don't want income tax and NI unified, we want if anything to expand the social insurance principle not scrap it altogether
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 10,224
    viewcode said:

    @NickPalmer

    A good, if depressing, thread Nick.

    IMHO if the government hasn't got any big issues to sort out it should concentrate on doing what is does better, not looking for a New Big Thing to obsess about. The implementation of Universal Credit is a good theory being derailed by bad implementation, and that should be addressed with some urgency. I know animal welfare is an interest of yours (and speaks well of you) but it is really not a priority. One of the reasons why I prefer a smaller government (but not Parliament) is that it's always looking to do something new: I really wish it'd stop.

    We can argue about what matters, of course (I'd put suffering for millions of animals pretty high up), but in general Governments should be able to do a few things in parallel. To be fair, you can't really expect Gove to be trying to solve the problems of Universal Credit - if he took an interest, the Minister concerned would probably tell him to butt out. It's his job to address farming, the environment and animal welfare, so he does, with enthusiasm. He's like that, and it's a strength: appoint him as Ambassador to Mongolia and we'd get a range of interesting new policies on Mongolia.

    You could perhaps more reasonably ask why Mrs May hasn't appointed a big hitter like that to sort out Universal Credit.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 14,077

    viewcode said:

    @NickPalmer

    A good, if depressing, thread Nick.

    IMHO if the government hasn't got any big issues to sort out it should concentrate on doing what is does better, not looking for a New Big Thing to obsess about. The implementation of Universal Credit is a good theory being derailed by bad implementation, and that should be addressed with some urgency. I know animal welfare is an interest of yours (and speaks well of you) but it is really not a priority. One of the reasons why I prefer a smaller government (but not Parliament) is that it's always looking to do something new: I really wish it'd stop.

    We can argue about what matters, of course (I'd put suffering for millions of animals pretty high up), but in general Governments should be able to do a few things in parallel. To be fair, you can't really expect Gove to be trying to solve the problems of Universal Credit - if he took an interest, the Minister concerned would probably tell him to butt out. It's his job to address farming, the environment and animal welfare, so he does, with enthusiasm. He's like that, and it's a strength: appoint him as Ambassador to Mongolia and we'd get a range of interesting new policies on Mongolia.

    You could perhaps more reasonably ask why Mrs May hasn't appointed a big hitter like that to sort out Universal Credit.
    Because he would turn it down! He's not stupid :-)
  • glwglw Posts: 4,207

    "So why are the parties suddenly working so hard on environment and animal welfare issues?"

    Because they are relatively unimportant ephemera. They're the cheap and easy things to do (governmentally) when the spectre of Brexit is hanging overhead.

    Distraction politics at its best/worst depending on your viewpoint.

    Cynical, me? ;)

    At least as the environment goes much of the progress is coming from industry, where solar (thanks China), offshore wind, and electric vehicles are all coming along nicely. So it's almost a freebie for politicians to be in favour of something that is going to happen whether they act or not.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 660
    edited February 18
    Environmental issues is a good way to shake the nasty party tag, and anything with dogs makes me go aww, probably partly why Cameron wasn't seen as negatively as other Tory leaders.

    O/T: Finding it mildly annoying that Jess Phillips being Jess Phillips is somehow considered reflective of the left, Jess protests and complains about whatever is in her interest, she doesn't criticise when it is her interest. She has been one of the biggest cheerleaders against Labours move left using every trick available to her to complain.

    The fact she isn't criticising this is reflective of Jess Phillips, if Brendan Cox was somehow seen as a Corbyn supporter she would she this as typical of the left and jump on it with her usual glee. If Jess Phillips is reflective of anything it is a more centrist anti Corbyn viewpoint than a left wing one.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 10,768

    hunchman said:

    Metatron said:

    And climate sceptics are being left homeless.....come back UKIP the only party who have questioned whether the whole `man made global warming` is a scam.

    Never mind that we've had global cooling over the past few years, record snow amounts in lots of places in the Northern Hemisphere over the past winter and many cold records broken. Antarctic ice at record extents since measurements began (funny how we don't hear about that!). Arctic ice recovering significantly since 2012 - according to Al Gore it was all going to be gone by now - oh dear! And we should have a good blast of the beast from the east in place by next weekend.

    An enlightened government would be preparing the population for the oncoming grand solar minimum in 2024 and mini ice age conditions to come, which are going to threaten global food supplies. There's as much chance of this happening under any government in the UK as Barnet winning the premiership by 2030.

    Follow the money and see that our current government collects in the order of £45,000 million from CO2 based taxes, on a completely false prospectus. What a crazy world we live in.
    Where are you getting your sea ice figures for Arctic? Record lows this last month:

    https://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/charctic-interactive-sea-ice-graph/
    Last September there was this in the Guardian: 'Sea ice coverage (in the Antarctic) fell to 2.075m sq km in March, the lowest since satellite observations began in 1979. But just three years earlier it hit a record high of more than 20m sq km.’ Most authorities say that the Antarctic sea ice change is due to overall warming. See alsohttps://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php?a=21&p=10
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 5,792
    As someone from the greeny-red end of political spectrum, any increased focus on environmental issues by the government and opposition is, for me, a good thing.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 9,475
    edited February 18
    viewcode said:

    @NickPalmer

    A good, if depressing, thread Nick.

    IMHO if the government hasn't got any big issues to sort out it should concentrate on doing what is does better, not looking for a New Big Thing to obsess about. The implementation of Universal Credit is a good theory being derailed by bad implementation, and that should be addressed with some urgency. I know animal welfare is an interest of yours (and speaks well of you) but it is really not a priority. One of the reasons why I prefer a smaller government (but not Parliament) is that it's always looking to do something new: I really wish it'd stop.

    Incidentally, on the UC implementation, TSE et al were predicting impending doom on this front if something wasn't done. Has McVey made a huge difference, or were the problems in fact being overblown by media outlets in the first place?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 19,334
    glw said:

    "So why are the parties suddenly working so hard on environment and animal welfare issues?"

    Because they are relatively unimportant ephemera. They're the cheap and easy things to do (governmentally) when the spectre of Brexit is hanging overhead.

    Distraction politics at its best/worst depending on your viewpoint.

    Cynical, me? ;)

    At least as the environment goes much of the progress is coming from industry, where solar (thanks China), offshore wind, and electric vehicles are all coming along nicely. So it's almost a freebie for politicians to be in favour of something that is going to happen whether they act or not.
    I'm an AGW sceptic: to be exact, I don't doubt that we are changing the climate, just that it's next to impossible to disentangle our effects from natural ones, and also that some of the proposed remedies are mired more in base politics than hard science.

    Yet unlike some, I'm intensely relaxed about where we're heading wrt environmental legislation. It's before my time, but my dad tells me there was a certain amount of criticism over the various clean air acts, and yet who would go back to those old smoggy days?

    We may be doing the right things for the wrong reasons. But less coal and petrochemical burning is good, as long as it does not further harm the environment or wider economy in other ways.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,417
    edited February 18
    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Great thread Nick, thanks. Reading the highlighted Gove speech, he took only six weeks to be utterly on top of his brief at DEFRA. That’s seriously impressive.

    Personally I’m torn between wanting him to get a promotion to No.11, and the huge needs of his current department with the changes of the next couple of years.

    He’s the sort of person who as Chancellor would get income tax and NI unified, and be prepared to think the unthinkable with regard to a whole load of problems that have been put in the too-difficult box by governments of all colours for decades.

    We don't want income tax and NI unified, we want if anything to expand the social insurance principle not scrap it altogether
    Okay, so come up with something that means that rich pensioners on final salary schemes paying 40% income tax also pay more towards the social care pot. Gove is one of those quite rare politicians who’s prepared to think outside the box. Tony Blair once asked the same of Frank Field, then promptly fired him when he did as instructed.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 14,077
    Mortimer said:

    viewcode said:

    @NickPalmer

    A good, if depressing, thread Nick.

    IMHO if the government hasn't got any big issues to sort out it should concentrate on doing what is does better, not looking for a New Big Thing to obsess about. The implementation of Universal Credit is a good theory being derailed by bad implementation, and that should be addressed with some urgency. I know animal welfare is an interest of yours (and speaks well of you) but it is really not a priority. One of the reasons why I prefer a smaller government (but not Parliament) is that it's always looking to do something new: I really wish it'd stop.

    Incidentally, on the UC implementation, TSE et al were predicting impending doom on this front if something wasn't done. Has McVey made a huge difference, or were the problems in fact being overblown by media outlets in the first place?
    I am still predicting doom! Wait until those on tax credits realise what is happening.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 5,006



    We can argue about what matters, of course (I'd put suffering for millions of animals pretty high up), but in general Governments should be able to do a few things in parallel.

    True, but just because Government can do something is not the same as saying it should. But this is a philosophical point which we will probably not agree on.

    (In passing, I wasn't implying Gove should do anything. My point was not specific to him)
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 27,476
    edited February 18
    If the claims are true, it is certainly a lot worse than some inappropriate knee touching. Grabbing people by the throat is assault, not just as reported by the BBC "inappropriate behaviour".
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,417
    Mortimer said:

    viewcode said:

    @NickPalmer

    A good, if depressing, thread Nick.

    IMHO if the government hasn't got any big issues to sort out it should concentrate on doing what is does better, not looking for a New Big Thing to obsess about. The implementation of Universal Credit is a good theory being derailed by bad implementation, and that should be addressed with some urgency. I know animal welfare is an interest of yours (and speaks well of you) but it is really not a priority. One of the reasons why I prefer a smaller government (but not Parliament) is that it's always looking to do something new: I really wish it'd stop.

    Incidentally, on the UC implementation, TSE et al were predicting impending doom on this front if something wasn't done. Has McVey made a huge difference, or were the problems in fact being overblown by media outlets in the first place?
    The extent of the teething problems were overblown by the media, but the individual effects on some individuals were unacceptable. Serious efforts have gone in to smoothing the issues and processes.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 2,675
    hunchman said:

    Metatron said:

    And climate sceptics are being left homeless.....come back UKIP the only party who have questioned whether the whole `man made global warming` is a scam.

    Never mind that we've had global cooling over the past few years, record snow amounts in lots of places in the Northern Hemisphere over the past winter and many cold records broken. Antarctic ice at record extents since measurements began (funny how we don't hear about that!). Arctic ice recovering significantly since 2012 - according to Al Gore it was all going to be gone by now - oh dear! And we should have a good blast of the beast from the east in place by next weekend.

    An enlightened government would be preparing the population for the oncoming grand solar minimum in 2024 and mini ice age conditions to come, which are going to threaten global food supplies. There's as much chance of this happening under any government in the UK as Barnet winning the premiership by 2030.

    Follow the money and see that our current government collects in the order of £45,000 million from CO2 based taxes, on a completely false prospectus. What a crazy world we live in.
    No governments are preparing for the 'oncoming grand solar minimum in 2024 and mini ice age conditions to come' because only a few wackos think that is going to happen.

    2024 is actually the approximate date of the next solar peak (of sunspot and flares) based on the 11 year solar cycle. Though it is fair to say expectations are low for a lot of activity given the experience of the current cycle, I don't think many are predicting a low peak will lead to a mini ice age in 2024!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,676
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Great thread Nick, thanks. Reading the highlighted Gove speech, he took only six weeks to be utterly on top of his brief at DEFRA. That’s seriously impressive.

    Personally I’m torn between wanting him to get a promotion to No.11, and the huge needs of his current department with the changes of the next couple of years.

    He’s the sort of person who as Chancellor would get income tax and NI unified, and be prepared to think the unthinkable with regard to a whole load of problems that have been put in the too-difficult box by governments of all colours for decades.

    We don't want income tax and NI unified, we want if anything to expand the social insurance principle not scrap it altogether
    Okay, so come up with something that means that rich pensioners on final salary schemes paying 40% income tax also pay more towards the social care pot. Gove is one of those quite rare politicians who’s prepared to think outside the box. Tony Blair once asked the same of Frank Field, then promptly fired him when he did as instructed.
    They will have paid national insurance throughout their working lives (and of course if they need residential social care their assets will have to be used to pay for that anyway).

    Using National Insurance to pay for increases in NHS and social care funding and welfare costs will ensure it is focused and clearly hypothecated, merging National Insurance into Income Tax just gives Labour an excuse to raise tax to spend on its pet projects just as much as the NHS etc
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 495
    I tend to agree that politics has ground to a halt.

    The puzzling thing is how left wing Labour are at the moment and still doing alright in the polls. I think a lot of people like me forget that for Labour, the party platform has to take on policies in obscure subject areas to follow through the political narrative they wish to paint. It is ideologically driven and so the pacifism of the left is not just confined to defence policy but encompasses banning the sales of weapons, ammunition and military vehicles. Some of these ideas tend to be repellent to more centrist free minded voters or Tories.

    I do wonder if Corbyn will produce a manifesto in 2022 like the 1983 version, though much derided by opponents. Corbyn could claim after all that the electorate were enthused by his previous offering in 2017 and a more left wing manifesto might engender real change. The UK has elected left-wing governments in the past in 1945, 1950 and 1974, so without a split on the left it is a possibility of it happening again.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 4,692
    Ydoethur said:
    'OK. Well, it may help you to know that until three years ago when he died I had a friend called Nick Baker who was a private secretary at No. 10 in Wilson's first tenure and lived very close to Marcia Falkender. Two mornings a week while walking the dog he would greet the man coming out of her house with the words 'Good morning Prime Minister' and get a grunt in reply.

    Now that is of course not conclusive. Maybe she did a mean full English or something. But it is suggestive.'

    I think you have related that story before - and indeed it is far from being conclusive. Perhaps Mary was also staying there, and there could well have been good political reasons for Wilson's presence. Morever, that was surely the period during which Marcia was involved with Walter Terry - father of her twins.
    In late 1977 or early 1978 I attended as a young PPC a meeting addressed by Joe Haines - Wilson's former press secretary. This had been set up by a member of the Young Socialists and took place less than two years after Wilson had left office. Some of the local press had got wind of the meeting and had turned up. Joe Haines noticed this on his arrival - and proceeded to make it clear that he would not be as open and forthcoming in his remarks were the press permitted to remain. The press were asked to leave - with the result that we were left with a small group of six to hear Joe Haines.
    I don't believe his working relationship with Falkender was particularly good, but I do recall him saying that at no time had he seen Harold even put his arm around Marcia. He very much conveyed the sense of there not having been an affair.
    Now, years later - circa 20 years later by which time Wilson was dead - Joe Haines began to sing a different tune and did imply the likelihood of a relationship. In view of his earlier comments, I no longer was inclined to take his statements seriously and thereafter have held a cynical view as to his motives.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,676
    edited February 18

    I tend to agree that politics has ground to a halt.

    The puzzling thing is how left wing Labour are at the moment and still doing alright in the polls. I think a lot of people like me forget that for Labour, the party platform has to take on policies in obscure subject areas to follow through the political narrative they wish to paint. It is ideologically driven and so the pacifism of the left is not just confined to defence policy but encompasses banning the sales of weapons, ammunition and military vehicles. Some of these ideas tend to be repellent to more centrist free minded voters or Tories.

    I do wonder if Corbyn will produce a manifesto in 2022 like the 1983 version, though much derided by opponents. Corbyn could claim after all that the electorate were enthused by his previous offering in 2017 and a more left wing manifesto might engender real change. The UK has elected left-wing governments in the past in 1945, 1950 and 1974, so without a split on the left it is a possibility of it happening again.

    Like the 1983 manifesto Corbyn will also be committed to keeping the UK out of the EU/EEC too.

    Of course in 1950 and October 1974 Labour only won with tiny majorities of 5 and 3 respectively.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,188
    FF43 said:

    Interesting article. Support for the environment ties into the anti-globalisation mood. Citizen of nowhere types can on this view damage the environment with impunity. This ignores the fact that all pollution and animal cruelty ultimately is local and that multilateral international action can nudge standards up.

    Although climate change is a classic where the gains are global and the costs local
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    Good to see animals rights high on political parties agenda.

    If the Tories are serious on the issue, they should declare immediately that fox hunting is wrong, and that they will start enforcing properly the law against it from tomorrow morning.

    Labour should draw up a manifesto commitment to do something about the costs and charges of vets.

    And every Labour member should read a copy of Animal Farm by George Orwell, and understand that they should beware that in their mission to make the farm a fairer place they should not hand it over to the Corbynista pigs.
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    HYUFD said:

    I tend to agree that politics has ground to a halt.

    The puzzling thing is how left wing Labour are at the moment and still doing alright in the polls. I think a lot of people like me forget that for Labour, the party platform has to take on policies in obscure subject areas to follow through the political narrative they wish to paint. It is ideologically driven and so the pacifism of the left is not just confined to defence policy but encompasses banning the sales of weapons, ammunition and military vehicles. Some of these ideas tend to be repellent to more centrist free minded voters or Tories.

    I do wonder if Corbyn will produce a manifesto in 2022 like the 1983 version, though much derided by opponents. Corbyn could claim after all that the electorate were enthused by his previous offering in 2017 and a more left wing manifesto might engender real change. The UK has elected left-wing governments in the past in 1945, 1950 and 1974, so without a split on the left it is a possibility of it happening again.

    Like the 1983 manifesto Corbyn will also be committed to keeping the UK out of the EU/EEC too.

    Of course in 1950 and October 1974 Labour only won with tiny majorities of 5 and 3 respectively.
    Corbyn should have the guts to draw up a Corbynista manifesto in 2022, and not hide behind Blairite tax pledges and slogans.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,676
    stevef said:

    HYUFD said:

    I tend to agree that politics has ground to a halt.

    The puzzling thing is how left wing Labour are at the moment and still doing alright in the polls. I think a lot of people like me forget that for Labour, the party platform has to take on policies in obscure subject areas to follow through the political narrative they wish to paint. It is ideologically driven and so the pacifism of the left is not just confined to defence policy but encompasses banning the sales of weapons, ammunition and military vehicles. Some of these ideas tend to be repellent to more centrist free minded voters or Tories.

    I do wonder if Corbyn will produce a manifesto in 2022 like the 1983 version, though much derided by opponents. Corbyn could claim after all that the electorate were enthused by his previous offering in 2017 and a more left wing manifesto might engender real change. The UK has elected left-wing governments in the past in 1945, 1950 and 1974, so without a split on the left it is a possibility of it happening again.

    Like the 1983 manifesto Corbyn will also be committed to keeping the UK out of the EU/EEC too.

    Of course in 1950 and October 1974 Labour only won with tiny majorities of 5 and 3 respectively.
    Corbyn should have the guts to draw up a Corbynista manifesto in 2022, and not hide behind Blairite tax pledges and slogans.
    Corbyn's proposed 50% top income tax rate is not Blairite
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 2,335

    If the claims are true, it is certainly a lot worse than some inappropriate knee touching. Grabbing people by the throat is assault, not just as reported by the BBC "inappropriate behaviour".
    The medias portrayal of their own, and those in affiliated loveydom, as irreproachable; and the sinners of the world as unredeemable is annoying. It mostly transpires that matters are the other way entirely.

    "Save the Children" must have been sponsoring him for their own reasons. I'd strongly suspect all of those reasons.



  • justin124justin124 Posts: 4,692
    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    HYUFD said:

    I tend to agree that politics has ground to a halt.

    The puzzling thing is how left wing Labour are at the moment and still doing alright in the polls. I think a lot of people like me forget that for Labour, the party platform has to take on policies in obscure subject areas to follow through the political narrative they wish to paint. It is ideologically driven and so the pacifism of the left is not just confined to defence policy but encompasses banning the sales of weapons, ammunition and military vehicles. Some of these ideas tend to be repellent to more centrist free minded voters or Tories.

    I do wonder if Corbyn will produce a manifesto in 2022 like the 1983 version, though much derided by opponents. Corbyn could claim after all that the electorate were enthused by his previous offering in 2017 and a more left wing manifesto might engender real change. The UK has elected left-wing governments in the past in 1945, 1950 and 1974, so without a split on the left it is a possibility of it happening again.

    Like the 1983 manifesto Corbyn will also be committed to keeping the UK out of the EU/EEC too.

    Of course in 1950 and October 1974 Labour only won with tiny majorities of 5 and 3 respectively.
    Corbyn should have the guts to draw up a Corbynista manifesto in 2022, and not hide behind Blairite tax pledges and slogans.
    Corbyn's proposed 50% top income tax rate is not Blairite
    But Thatcher had a 60% top rate until 1988.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,678
    An interesting theory as to why such movement on this issue. I'm not wholly convinced, but it's hard to argue with most of this:

    The parties have fought each other to a standstill on the big issues. The economy? The deficit has gone from urgent crisis to “Is that still a thing?” in public consciousness. Brexit? Clearly difficult and not really under British control. The NHS? In crisis for so long that many people have lost confidence that it will be fixed. Immigration? The Tories aren’t doing much, Labour doesn’t want to do much, UKIP has imploded. Competence? Much of the public doesn’t rate anyone on that score. So the parties are locked at about 40% each with no sign of movement.
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    HYUFD said:

    I tend to agree that politics has ground to a halt.

    The puzzling thing is how left wing Labour are at the moment and still doing alright in the polls. I think a lot of people like me forget that for Labour, the party platform has to take on policies in obscure subject areas to follow through the political narrative they wish to paint. It is ideologically driven and so the pacifism of the left is not just confined to defence policy but encompasses banning the sales of weapons, ammunition and military vehicles. Some of these ideas tend to be repellent to more centrist free minded voters or Tories.

    I do wonder if Corbyn will produce a manifesto in 2022 like the 1983 version, though much derided by opponents. Corbyn could claim after all that the electorate were enthused by his previous offering in 2017 and a more left wing manifesto might engender real change. The UK has elected left-wing governments in the past in 1945, 1950 and 1974, so without a split on the left it is a possibility of it happening again.

    Like the 1983 manifesto Corbyn will also be committed to keeping the UK out of the EU/EEC too.

    Of course in 1950 and October 1974 Labour only won with tiny majorities of 5 and 3 respectively.
    Corbyn should have the guts to draw up a Corbynista manifesto in 2022, and not hide behind Blairite tax pledges and slogans.
    Corbyn's proposed 50% top income tax rate is not Blairite
    Yes it is, -it was introduced by Gordon Brown in 2010. It wouldnt raise much money. Nor would the raising of Corporation Tax back to Blairite levels But very Blairite is Corbyn's promise that 95% of people will not pay higher taxes. Corbyn's spending programme can only be paid for by raising taxes back to where they were before Thatcher. Why doesnt he have the guts and the honesty to admit that?
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    HYUFD said:

    I tend to agree that politics has ground to a halt.

    The puzzling thing is how left wing Labour are at the moment and still doing alright in the polls. I think a lot of people like me forget that for Labour, the party platform has to take on policies in obscure subject areas to follow through the political narrative they wish to paint. It is ideologically driven and so the pacifism of the left is not just confined to defence policy but encompasses banning the sales of weapons, ammunition and military vehicles. Some of these ideas tend to be repellent to more centrist free minded voters or Tories.

    I do wonder if Corbyn will produce a manifesto in 2022 like the 1983 version, though much derided by opponents. Corbyn could claim after all that the electorate were enthused by his previous offering in 2017 and a more left wing manifesto might engender real change. The UK has elected left-wing governments in the past in 1945, 1950 and 1974, so without a split on the left it is a possibility of it happening again.

    Like the 1983 manifesto Corbyn will also be committed to keeping the UK out of the EU/EEC too.

    Of course in 1950 and October 1974 Labour only won with tiny majorities of 5 and 3 respectively.
    Corbyn should have the guts to draw up a Corbynista manifesto in 2022, and not hide behind Blairite tax pledges and slogans.
    Corbyn's proposed 50% top income tax rate is not Blairite
    But Thatcher had a 60% top rate until 1988.
    So Corbyn's tax plans are Thatcherite?

    Corbyn's spending plans cannot be paid for without putting up income tax to before Thatcher. Why cant he admit that?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,676
    edited February 18
    stevef said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    HYUFD said:

    I tend to agree that politics has ground to a halt.

    The puzzling thing is how left wing Labour are at the moment and still doing alright in the polls. I think a lot of people like me forget that for Labour, the party platform has to take on policies in obscure subject areas to follow through the political narrative they wish to paint. It is ideologically driven and so the pacifism of the left is not just confined to defence policy but encompasses banning the sales of weapons, ammunition and military vehicles. Some of these ideas tend to be repellent to more centrist free minded voters or Tories.

    I do wonder if Corbyn will produce a manifesto in 2022 like the 1983 version, though much derided by opponents. Corbyn could claim after all that the electorate were enthused by his previous offering in 2017 and a more left wing manifesto might engender real change. The UK has elected left-wing governments in the past in 1945, 1950 and 1974, so without a split on the left it is a possibility of it happening again.

    Like the 1983 manifesto Corbyn will also be committed to keeping the UK out of the EU/EEC too.

    Of course in 1950 and October 1974 Labour only won with tiny majorities of 5 and 3 respectively.
    Corbyn should have the guts to draw up a Corbynista manifesto in 2022, and not hide behind Blairite tax pledges and slogans.
    Corbyn's proposed 50% top income tax rate is not Blairite
    Yes it is, -it was introduced by Gordon Brown in 2010. It wouldnt raise much money. Nor would the raising of Corporation Tax back to Blairite levels But very Blairite is Corbyn's promise that 95% of people will not pay higher taxes. Corbyn's spending programme can only be paid for by raising taxes back to where they were before Thatcher. Why doesnt he have the guts and the honesty to admit that?
    Blair was not even an MP anymore let alone PM when Brown introduced the 50% top rate of income tax. The top income tax rate was 40% throughout the Blair years.

    Though I agree the middle classes and businesses will likely have to pay more tax too for Corbyn's spending and nationalisation plans beyond simply taking corporation tax and inheritance tax back to the level of the New Labour years
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 9,193
    hunchman said:

    Metatron said:

    And climate sceptics are being left homeless.....come back UKIP the only party who have questioned whether the whole `man made global warming` is a scam.

    Never mind that we've had global cooling over the past few years, record snow amounts in lots of places in the Northern Hemisphere over the past winter and many cold records broken. Antarctic ice at record extents since measurements began (funny how we don't hear about that!). Arctic ice recovering significantly since 2012 - according to Al Gore it was all going to be gone by now - oh dear! And we should have a good blast of the beast from the east in place by next weekend.
    What is your source for this. They are both at record/near record lows.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 2,335
    kle4 said:

    An interesting theory as to why such movement on this issue. I'm not wholly convinced, but it's hard to argue with most of this:

    The parties have fought each other to a standstill on the big issues. The economy? The deficit has gone from urgent crisis to “Is that still a thing?” in public consciousness. Brexit? Clearly difficult and not really under British control. The NHS? In crisis for so long that many people have lost confidence that it will be fixed. Immigration? The Tories aren’t doing much, Labour doesn’t want to do much, UKIP has imploded. Competence? Much of the public doesn’t rate anyone on that score. So the parties are locked at about 40% each with no sign of movement.

    The parties have fought themselves to a standoff perhaps, but certainly not a standstill. There's not been a sensible discussion on the big issues for years. Precisely no arms have been chanced, no stones have been turned, and not the slightest wit has been applied to our problems.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,676
    edited February 18
    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    HYUFD said:

    I tend to agree that politics has ground to a halt.

    The puzzling thing is how left wing Labour are at the moment and still doing alright in the polls. I think a lot of people like me forget that for Labour, the party platform has to take on policies in obscure subject areas to follow through the political narrative they wish to paint. It is ideologically driven and so the pacifism of the left is not just confined to defence policy but encompasses banning the sales of weapons, ammunition and military vehicles. Some of these ideas tend to be repellent to more centrist free minded voters or Tories.

    I do wonder if Corbyn will produce a manifesto in 2022 like the 1983 version, though much derided by opponents. Corbyn could claim after all that the electorate were enthused by his previous offering in 2017 and a more left wing manifesto might engender real change. The UK has elected left-wing governments in the past in 1945, 1950 and 1974, so without a split on the left it is a possibility of it happening again.

    Like the 1983 manifesto Corbyn will also be committed to keeping the UK out of the EU/EEC too.

    Of course in 1950 and October 1974 Labour only won with tiny majorities of 5 and 3 respectively.
    Corbyn should have the guts to draw up a Corbynista manifesto in 2022, and not hide behind Blairite tax pledges and slogans.
    Corbyn's proposed 50% top income tax rate is not Blairite
    But Thatcher had a 60% top rate until 1988.
    Over the course of the Thatcher years the top rate of income tax fell from 83% in 1979 to 40% by the time she left office in 1990
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 3,254
    I never thought Dave was being particularly insincere with his Green manoeuvrings: it actually drew on an old strand of bucolic, self-sustaining Toryism to which Dave would have been sympathetic. Gove presumably is similarly inclined. It will be interesting to see how the hard Right react when they get wind of what he's been saying. To them the possibility of climate change is up there with the possibility of any good coming from the EU: something not to be entertained under any circumstances. Gove might lose a lot of friends.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 495
    stevef said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    HYUFD said:

    I tend to agree that politics has ground to a halt.

    The puzzling thing is how left wing Labour are at the moment and still doing alright in the polls. I think a lot of people like me forget that for Labour, the party platform has to take on policies in obscure subject areas to follow through the political narrative they wish to paint. It is ideologically driven and so the pacifism of the left is not just confined to defence policy but encompasses banning the sales of weapons, ammunition and military vehicles. Some of these ideas tend to be repellent to more centrist free minded voters or Tories.

    I do wonder if Corbyn will produce a manifesto in 2022 like the 1983 version, though much derided by opponents. Corbyn could claim after all that the electorate were enthused by his previous offering in 2017 and a more left wing manifesto might engender real change. The UK has elected left-wing governments in the past in 1945, 1950 and 1974, so without a split on the left it is a possibility of it happening again.

    Like the 1983 manifesto Corbyn will also be committed to keeping the UK out of the EU/EEC too.

    Of course in 1950 and October 1974 Labour only won with tiny majorities of 5 and 3 respectively.
    Corbyn should have the guts to draw up a Corbynista manifesto in 2022, and not hide behind Blairite tax pledges and slogans.
    Corbyn's proposed 50% top income tax rate is not Blairite
    Yes it is, -it was introduced by Gordon Brown in 2010. It wouldnt raise much money. Nor would the raising of Corporation Tax back to Blairite levels But very Blairite is Corbyn's promise that 95% of people will not pay higher taxes. Corbyn's spending programme can only be paid for by raising taxes back to where they were before Thatcher. Why doesnt he have the guts and the honesty to admit that?
    I suspect the reason why nobody will admit to wanting that sort of tax policy is based around the economy being very different to how it was structured as late as the 1970s. The economy is driven by consumption, which is responsible for 70% of GDP IIRC. One could argue that if money is redistributed from wealthy to lower income groups it will disrupt the economy. On the other side of the coin it will enhance growth in some areas as the disposable income of those in the lower income brackets will experience an uplift in income. I think the problem lies in that wealthy individuals feeling their wealth will be under threat will move away, just as French bankers did with the election of Francois Hollande in 2012. Another example is that of Mitterrand in the 1980s who tried a socialist economy and was beaten back by market forces.
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    Never mind hamsters rights Mr Corbyn -although I am very much in favour of hamsters rights.

    Its time for Corbyn to stop treating voters on the tax issue as if they are as dumb as hamsters.

    Corbyn has a long shopping list of spending plans. He wants to roll back spending to the days before Thatcher.

    Yet at the election he claims this can be done with 95% of the population paying no more income tax or NI, with the top rate of income tax up only to Gordon Brown 2010 levels, lower than under Thatcher, and with Corporation Tax only at the level under Gordon Brown.

    Pre Thatcher spending at Post Thatcher tax rates.

    Who does Mr Corbyn think he is fooling?

    Instead of posing and preening as a red blooded socialist, he should put his mouth where his money is and stop hiding behind Blairite promises on tax.

    He wants the NHS to be properly funded, he wants good social care, a pay rise for all public sector workers, nationalisation of public utilities, a national education service, an end to tuition fees, more spending on welfare..................................That will cost a lot.

    This cannot be paid for by 95% paying no extra income tax or NI, and the rich and companies paying less than under Thatcher.

    Time for Corbyn and McDonnell to be honest on tax. If you want to turn back the clock to before Thatcher on spending, you have to turn back the clock on taxes too.

    Anything else is a lie.

  • BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 1,719
    "Anything else is a lie."

    Labour party slogan 2022 NAILED ON
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044

    "Anything else is a lie."

    Labour party slogan 2022 NAILED ON

    Messiah whose initials are JC. Nails. Crucifixion.

    Hey, yeah, I get it.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,465
    stevef said:

    Never mind hamsters rights Mr Corbyn -although I am very much in favour of hamsters rights.

    Its time for Corbyn to stop treating voters on the tax issue as if they are as dumb as hamsters.

    Corbyn has a long shopping list of spending plans. He wants to roll back spending to the days before Thatcher.

    Yet at the election he claims this can be done with 95% of the population paying no more income tax or NI, with the top rate of income tax up only to Gordon Brown 2010 levels, lower than under Thatcher, and with Corporation Tax only at the level under Gordon Brown.

    Pre Thatcher spending at Post Thatcher tax rates.

    Who does Mr Corbyn think he is fooling?

    Instead of posing and preening as a red blooded socialist, he should put his mouth where his money is and stop hiding behind Blairite promises on tax.

    He wants the NHS to be properly funded, he wants good social care, a pay rise for all public sector workers, nationalisation of public utilities, a national education service, an end to tuition fees, more spending on welfare..................................That will cost a lot.

    This cannot be paid for by 95% paying no extra income tax or NI, and the rich and companies paying less than under Thatcher.

    Time for Corbyn and McDonnell to be honest on tax. If you want to turn back the clock to before Thatcher on spending, you have to turn back the clock on taxes too.

    Anything else is a lie.

    Labour are going to be surprised at just how mobile the richest 5% of taxpayers are..... Then it will be down to the 95% to make up the shortfall. Broken pledge right there.
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044

    stevef said:

    Never mind hamsters rights Mr Corbyn -although I am very much in favour of hamsters rights.

    Its time for Corbyn to stop treating voters on the tax issue as if they are as dumb as hamsters.

    Corbyn has a long shopping list of spending plans. He wants to roll back spending to the days before Thatcher.

    Yet at the election he claims this can be done with 95% of the population paying no more income tax or NI, with the top rate of income tax up only to Gordon Brown 2010 levels, lower than under Thatcher, and with Corporation Tax only at the level under Gordon Brown.

    Pre Thatcher spending at Post Thatcher tax rates.

    Who does Mr Corbyn think he is fooling?

    Instead of posing and preening as a red blooded socialist, he should put his mouth where his money is and stop hiding behind Blairite promises on tax.

    He wants the NHS to be properly funded, he wants good social care, a pay rise for all public sector workers, nationalisation of public utilities, a national education service, an end to tuition fees, more spending on welfare..................................That will cost a lot.

    This cannot be paid for by 95% paying no extra income tax or NI, and the rich and companies paying less than under Thatcher.

    Time for Corbyn and McDonnell to be honest on tax. If you want to turn back the clock to before Thatcher on spending, you have to turn back the clock on taxes too.

    Anything else is a lie.

    Labour are going to be surprised at just how mobile the richest 5% of taxpayers are..... Then it will be down to the 95% to make up the shortfall. Broken pledge right there.
    Even if he get every penny of tax from the top 5%, it wouldnt raise much money.

    I am willing to pay higher income tax to pay for the NHS, why isnt Corbyn?
  • Rochdale just scored - lead spurs 1 - 0
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,713
    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    HYUFD said:

    I tend to agree that politics has ground to a halt.

    The puzzling thing is how left wing Labour are at the moment and still doing alright in the polls. I think a lot of people like me forget that for Labour, the party platform has to take on policies in obscure subject areas to follow through the political narrative they wish to paint. It is ideologically driven and so the pacifism of the left is not just confined to defence policy but encompasses banning the sales of weapons, ammunition and military vehicles. Some of these ideas tend to be repellent to more centrist free minded voters or Tories.

    I do wonder if Corbyn will produce a manifesto in 2022 like the 1983 version, though much derided by opponents. Corbyn could claim after all that the electorate were enthused by his previous offering in 2017 and a more left wing manifesto might engender real change. The UK has elected left-wing governments in the past in 1945, 1950 and 1974, so without a split on the left it is a possibility of it happening again.

    Like the 1983 manifesto Corbyn will also be committed to keeping the UK out of the EU/EEC too.

    Of course in 1950 and October 1974 Labour only won with tiny majorities of 5 and 3 respectively.
    Corbyn should have the guts to draw up a Corbynista manifesto in 2022, and not hide behind Blairite tax pledges and slogans.
    Corbyn's proposed 50% top income tax rate is not Blairite
    His preposterous claim that only those earning more than £85,000 will pay more tax and that all his spending promises can be paid for with some modest tax increases is entirely Blairite in its dishonesty.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 27,476
    edited February 18
    Omnium said:

    If the claims are true, it is certainly a lot worse than some inappropriate knee touching. Grabbing people by the throat is assault, not just as reported by the BBC "inappropriate behaviour".
    The medias portrayal of their own, and those in affiliated loveydom, as irreproachable; and the sinners of the world as unredeemable is annoying. It mostly transpires that matters are the other way entirely.

    "Save the Children" must have been sponsoring him for their own reasons. I'd strongly suspect all of those reasons.



    Quite an over reaction.....

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,179
    edited February 18
    Scott_P said:
    That is stark and very upsetting and it is true
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 7,741

    I never thought Dave was being particularly insincere with his Green manoeuvrings: it actually drew on an old strand of bucolic, self-sustaining Toryism to which Dave would have been sympathetic. Gove presumably is similarly inclined. It will be interesting to see how the hard Right react when they get wind of what he's been saying. To them the possibility of climate change is up there with the possibility of any good coming from the EU: something not to be entertained under any circumstances. Gove might lose a lot of friends.

    Cameron cycling to work while his chauffeur followed behind does suggest a certain artifice.
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,643
    Foxy said:

    Off Topic:

    I can highly recommend to PB film buffs the new version of Journeys End. The original play in 1928 was alongside All Quiet on the Western Front as a critique of the conduct of WW1, written by a veteran. It is important in understanding the antiwar movement of the Thirties, and why appeasement was a popular policy. Very powerfully acted and directed:



    Thanks, I wasn't even aware of this film. The play was one of the few things they made us study in English lessons I actually quite liked.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 5,006
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,643
    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    HYUFD said:

    I tend to agree that politics has ground to a halt.

    The puzzling thing is how left wing Labour are at the moment and still doing alright in the polls. I think a lot of people like me forget that for Labour, the party platform has to take on policies in obscure subject areas to follow through the political narrative they wish to paint. It is ideologically driven and so the pacifism of the left is not just confined to defence policy but encompasses banning the sales of weapons, ammunition and military vehicles. Some of these ideas tend to be repellent to more centrist free minded voters or Tories.

    I do wonder if Corbyn will produce a manifesto in 2022 like the 1983 version, though much derided by opponents. Corbyn could claim after all that the electorate were enthused by his previous offering in 2017 and a more left wing manifesto might engender real change. The UK has elected left-wing governments in the past in 1945, 1950 and 1974, so without a split on the left it is a possibility of it happening again.

    Like the 1983 manifesto Corbyn will also be committed to keeping the UK out of the EU/EEC too.

    Of course in 1950 and October 1974 Labour only won with tiny majorities of 5 and 3 respectively.
    Corbyn should have the guts to draw up a Corbynista manifesto in 2022, and not hide behind Blairite tax pledges and slogans.
    Corbyn's proposed 50% top income tax rate is not Blairite
    His preposterous claim that only those earning more than £85,000 will pay more tax and that all his spending promises can be paid for with some modest tax increases is entirely Blairite in its dishonesty.
    +1
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    Corbyn's plan to raise the top rate of tax and Corporation Tax to Brownite levels will raise only peanuts.

    Peanuts are for monkeys Mr Corbyn.

    I am willing to pay more income tax to pay for the NHS, for decent social care and education.

    Why is Mr Corbyn not willing to raise the basic rate of income tax to pay for these things?

    The basic rate of income tax was actually higher under most of Tony Blair's premiership than what Corbyn is proposing. And Blair did not have Corbyn's long spending list.

    Stop lying to us about tax Mr Corbyn. Your spending plans cannot be funded by your tax plans.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 7,741

    stevef said:

    Never mind hamsters rights Mr Corbyn -although I am very much in favour of hamsters rights.

    Its time for Corbyn to stop treating voters on the tax issue as if they are as dumb as hamsters.

    Corbyn has a long shopping list of spending plans. He wants to roll back spending to the days before Thatcher.

    Yet at the election he claims this can be done with 95% of the population paying no more income tax or NI, with the top rate of income tax up only to Gordon Brown 2010 levels, lower than under Thatcher, and with Corporation Tax only at the level under Gordon Brown.

    Pre Thatcher spending at Post Thatcher tax rates.

    Who does Mr Corbyn think he is fooling?

    Instead of posing and preening as a red blooded socialist, he should put his mouth where his money is and stop hiding behind Blairite promises on tax.

    He wants the NHS to be properly funded, he wants good social care, a pay rise for all public sector workers, nationalisation of public utilities, a national education service, an end to tuition fees, more spending on welfare..................................That will cost a lot.

    This cannot be paid for by 95% paying no extra income tax or NI, and the rich and companies paying less than under Thatcher.

    Time for Corbyn and McDonnell to be honest on tax. If you want to turn back the clock to before Thatcher on spending, you have to turn back the clock on taxes too.

    Anything else is a lie.

    Labour are going to be surprised at just how mobile the richest 5% of taxpayers are..... Then it will be down to the 95% to make up the shortfall. Broken pledge right there.
    Are there figures on this mobility? A genuine question because the top rate has been up and down a bit over the past decade so has anyone bothered to count how many top payers emigrated and came back?
  • Boulton, the Sky presenter whose every interview is anti Brexit and cannot even attempt to be even handed. Ably supported by Faisal Islam

    Not going to happen
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 17,860
    stevef said:

    Stop lying to us about tax Mr Corbyn. Your spending plans cannot be funded by your tax plans.

    Angela Raynor was promising to borrow £14bn for school buildings today. Anything they can label as capital spending will be on tick.
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    viewcode said:
    He's another Remoaner who cant accept the referendum result.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 1,938
    Arch Remainer predicts second referendum. Possible, but unlikely. I’m not a Times subscriber so can’t really add anything further.

    Let’s see what happens when the Cabinet settles on the desired end state, and starts preaching with one voice.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,306

    stevef said:

    Stop lying to us about tax Mr Corbyn. Your spending plans cannot be funded by your tax plans.

    Angela Raynor was promising to borrow £14bn for school buildings today. Anything they can label as capital spending will be on tick.

    We're still trying to sort out the mess of the last lot of PFI deals :open_mouth:

  • stodgestodge Posts: 3,755
    Afternoon all :)

    So much for a debate on the environment. It's back to taxation and the usual suspect telling us just how bad Jeremy Corbyn is.

    As for the environment and irrespective of whether you are a climate change denier or not, Gove's speech was excellent until he started harping on about the EU and how bad it was. There are sound reasons for all politically thoughtful people to be concerned about and to be motivated about the environment and its impact on human behaviour.

    IF part of the migration of peoples from sub-Saharan Africa is down to a deteriorating environment and IF sea level rises threaten the very existence of islands which should mean more to us than simply nice places to visit on holiday, it forces a globally-focussed internationalist post-EU Britain to be in the vanguard of leading international and global efforts aimed at conservation, preservation and protection.

    On that, I would stand four-square with Gove and whether your motives are coldly rational or entirely sentimental it matters little if the net effect is the same. There would be a backlash against eco-authoritarianism in the UK (and rightly so) but if Government can use education and legislation (carrot and stick) to inform and persuade so much the better.

    A lot has happened already - cars are so much cleaner and more efficient than 30 years ago while solar, wind and tidal energy sources are being encouraged and whatever you may think of seeing the desert outside Palm Springs full of solar panels and windmills, it's a step forward however much some may view it as spoiling the view.

    It would also be encouraging to see a wider cross-party concensus on this issue - I suspect there are elements of common thinking in all parties and taking this issue forward collaboratively will make getting things done so much easier.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 2,335
    stevef said:

    Never mind hamsters rights Mr Corbyn -although I am very much in favour of hamsters rights.

    Its time for Corbyn to stop treating voters on the tax issue as if they are as dumb as hamsters.

    Corbyn has a long shopping list of spending plans. He wants to roll back spending to the days before Thatcher.

    Yet at the election he claims this can be done with 95% of the population paying no more income tax or NI, with the top rate of income tax up only to Gordon Brown 2010 levels, lower than under Thatcher, and with Corporation Tax only at the level under Gordon Brown.

    Pre Thatcher spending at Post Thatcher tax rates.

    Who does Mr Corbyn think he is fooling?

    Instead of posing and preening as a red blooded socialist, he should put his mouth where his money is and stop hiding behind Blairite promises on tax.

    He wants the NHS to be properly funded, he wants good social care, a pay rise for all public sector workers, nationalisation of public utilities, a national education service, an end to tuition fees, more spending on welfare..................................That will cost a lot.

    This cannot be paid for by 95% paying no extra income tax or NI, and the rich and companies paying less than under Thatcher.

    Time for Corbyn and McDonnell to be honest on tax. If you want to turn back the clock to before Thatcher on spending, you have to turn back the clock on taxes too.

    Anything else is a lie.

    Corbyn and McDonnell want to break, and remold, the nation. We'll all live in the same bedsits/mansions (the outcome being as to the wisdom). That's fine though because these geniuses have between them done roughly zero hours of work that anyone in their right mind has paid for. The likelihood that either one of them could wield a broom to any effect is questionable.

    NP and his fellow Labour supporters are trying to foist upon the public representatives that they know are awful. They're doing this simply because they all share the Labour badge. That they are doing it at all just shows how devoid of foundation the left has been for a long time.

    Quite how the Tories have managed to look even less convincing against that background is beyond me.

    I can only start to imagine the LDs incredulity that given the above they're going backwards.



  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 6,466

    stevef said:

    Never mind hamsters rights Mr Corbyn -although I am very much in favour of hamsters rights.

    Its time for Corbyn to stop treating voters on the tax issue as if they are as dumb as hamsters.

    Corbyn has a long shopping list of spending plans. He wants to roll back spending to the days before Thatcher.

    Yet at the election he claims this can be done with 95% of the population paying no more income tax or NI, with the top rate of income tax up only to Gordon Brown 2010 levels, lower than under Thatcher, and with Corporation Tax only at the level under Gordon Brown.

    Pre Thatcher spending at Post Thatcher tax rates.

    Who does Mr Corbyn think he is fooling?

    Instead of posing and preening as a red blooded socialist, he should put his mouth where his money is and stop hiding behind Blairite promises on tax.

    He wants the NHS to be properly funded, he wants good social care, a pay rise for all public sector workers, nationalisation of public utilities, a national education service, an end to tuition fees, more spending on welfare..................................That will cost a lot.

    This cannot be paid for by 95% paying no extra income tax or NI, and the rich and companies paying less than under Thatcher.

    Time for Corbyn and McDonnell to be honest on tax. If you want to turn back the clock to before Thatcher on spending, you have to turn back the clock on taxes too.

    Anything else is a lie.

    Labour are going to be surprised at just how mobile the richest 5% of taxpayers are..... Then it will be down to the 95% to make up the shortfall. Broken pledge right there.
    Are there figures on this mobility? A genuine question because the top rate has been up and down a bit over the past decade so has anyone bothered to count how many top payers emigrated and came back?
    Hold your nose and read this Telegraph article.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/19/tax-burden-wealthy-has-trebled-since-1970s-telegraph-analysis/

    The pips have not yet squeaked.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 10,224
    RoyalBlue said:


    Let’s see what happens when the Cabinet settles on the desired end state, and starts preaching with one voice.

    Hey, I'm 68. Do you think I'll live to see it? :)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 1,788
    RoyalBlue said:

    Arch Remainer predicts second referendum. Possible, but unlikely. I’m not a Times subscriber so can’t really add anything further.

    Let’s see what happens when the Cabinet settles on the desired end state, and starts preaching with one voice.
    They have spent nearly two years without agreement on goals, why agree a position now?

    I suspect that in the end the headbangers will be glad that Remainers forced a Commons vote, so that they can vote against it.

    Rochdale looking good! I though them worth a couple of quid pre match. Now all green.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 495
    edited February 18

    Boulton, the Sky presenter whose every interview is anti Brexit and cannot even attempt to be even handed. Ably supported by Faisal Islam

    Not going to happen
    Well, Bolton is correct that the PM has made a mess of negotiating Brexit. I don't think many people in opinion polls rate her so far in her efforts to get a deal.

    My thoughts beyond Brexit is do we really want someone so useless representing our interests in any other trade deals assuming the UK can get anywhere in trying to initiate them?

    Personally, I don't think another referendum is a good idea as they get hijacked by issues only tangentially connected to the main question. I also think they are too divisive and spread hatred in those people that are less civilised. However, some people might be wanting a second referendum to settle this question once and for all.

    Far from taking back control we seem to have NO control at all.
  • RoyalBlue said:


    Let’s see what happens when the Cabinet settles on the desired end state, and starts preaching with one voice.

    Hey, I'm 68. Do you think I'll live to see it? :)
    Hope so
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 1,788
    John_M said:

    stevef said:

    Never mind hamsters rights Mr Corbyn -although I am very much in favour of hamsters rights.

    Its time for Corbyn to stop treating voters on the tax issue as if they are as dumb as hamsters.

    Corbyn has a long shopping list of spending plans. He wants to roll back spending to the days before Thatcher.

    Yet at the election he claims this can be done with 95% of the population paying no more income tax or NI, with the top rate of income tax up only to Gordon Brown 2010 levels, lower than under Thatcher, and with Corporation Tax only at the level under Gordon Brown.

    Pre Thatcher spending at Post Thatcher tax rates.

    Who does Mr Corbyn think he is fooling?

    Instead of posing and preening as a red blooded socialist, he should put his mouth where his money is and stop hiding behind Blairite promises on tax.

    He wants the NHS to be properly funded, he wants good social care, a pay rise for all public sector workers, nationalisation of public utilities, a national education service, an end to tuition fees, more spending on welfare..................................That will cost a lot.

    This cannot be paid for by 95% paying no extra income tax or NI, and the rich and companies paying less than under Thatcher.

    Time for Corbyn and McDonnell to be honest on tax. If you want to turn back the clock to before Thatcher on spending, you have to turn back the clock on taxes too.

    Anything else is a lie.

    Labour are going to be surprised at just how mobile the richest 5% of taxpayers are..... Then it will be down to the 95% to make up the shortfall. Broken pledge right there.
    Are there figures on this mobility? A genuine question because the top rate has been up and down a bit over the past decade so has anyone bothered to count how many top payers emigrated and came back?
    Hold your nose and read this Telegraph article.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/19/tax-burden-wealthy-has-trebled-since-1970s-telegraph-analysis/

    The pips have not yet squeaked.
    Isn't that because the 1% are much wealthier hence paying more tax? just a reflection of increased inequality?
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    Corbynistas don't want to talk about tax except to tell us that no one except those wearing top hats, pantomime capes, and gold watches will pay more.

    They want to talk about kittens and hamsters instead...............

    Eventually, Corbyn and his pigs from Animal Farm are going to have to explain how you pay for pre Thatcher state spending with post Thatcher levels of taxation.

    I'm willing to pay more income tax, why isnt Corbyn willing to admit that he will put it up to pay for those great socialist projects?

    The People are entitled to know.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,859
    Foxy said:

    John_M said:

    stevef said:

    Never mind hamsters rights Mr Corbyn -although I am very much in favour of hamsters rights.

    Its time for Corbyn to stop treating voters on the tax issue as if they are as dumb as hamsters.

    Corbyn has a long shopping list of spending plans. He wants to roll back spending to the days before Thatcher.

    Yet at the election he claims this can be done with 95% of the population paying no more income tax or NI, with the top rate of income tax up only to Gordon Brown 2010 levels, lower than under Thatcher, and with Corporation Tax only at the level under Gordon Brown.

    Pre Thatcher spending at Post Thatcher tax rates.

    Who does Mr Corbyn think he is fooling?

    Instead of posing and preening as a red blooded socialist, he should put his mouth where his money is and stop hiding behind Blairite promises on tax.

    He wants the NHS to be properly funded, he wants good social care, a pay rise for all public sector workers, nationalisation of public utilities, a national education service, an end to tuition fees, more spending on welfare..................................That will cost a lot.

    This cannot be paid for by 95% paying no extra income tax or NI, and the rich and companies paying less than under Thatcher.

    Time for Corbyn and McDonnell to be honest on tax. If you want to turn back the clock to before Thatcher on spending, you have to turn back the clock on taxes too.

    Anything else is a lie.

    Labour are going to be surprised at just how mobile the richest 5% of taxpayers are..... Then it will be down to the 95% to make up the shortfall. Broken pledge right there.
    Are there figures on this mobility? A genuine question because the top rate has been up and down a bit over the past decade so has anyone bothered to count how many top payers emigrated and came back?
    Hold your nose and read this Telegraph article.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/19/tax-burden-wealthy-has-trebled-since-1970s-telegraph-analysis/

    The pips have not yet squeaked.
    Isn't that because the 1% are much wealthier hence paying more tax? just a reflection of increased inequality?
    Except inequality is going down:

    https://goo.gl/yvBRDJ
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 10,224
    stevef said:

    Corbynistas don't want to talk about tax except to tell us that no one except those wearing top hats, pantomime capes, and gold watches will pay more.

    They want to talk about kittens and hamsters instead...............

    Eventually, Corbyn and his pigs from Animal Farm are going to have to explain how you pay for pre Thatcher state spending with post Thatcher levels of taxation.

    I'm willing to pay more income tax, why isnt Corbyn willing to admit that he will put it up to pay for those great socialist projects?

    The People are entitled to know.

    Is there any subject on the planet that we can have a thread about which doesn't lead you to harangue us about Corbyn? I mean, I like him, and I think he'd be a good PM, but I don't see the point of saying so on every thread. You've an absolute right to the opposite view, but the same applies. Diminishing returns and all that?
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 6,466
    edited February 18
    Foxy said:

    John_M said:

    stevef said:

    Never mind hamsters rights Mr Corbyn -although I am very much in favour of hamsters rights.

    Its time for Corbyn to stop treating voters on the tax issue as if they are as dumb as hamsters.

    Corbyn has a long shopping list of spending plans. He wants to roll back spending to the days before Thatcher.

    Yet at the election he claims this can be done with 95% of the population paying no more income tax or NI, with the top rate of income tax up only to Gordon Brown 2010 levels, lower than under Thatcher, and with Corporation Tax only at the level under Gordon Brown.

    Pre Thatcher spending at Post Thatcher tax rates.

    Who does Mr Corbyn think he is fooling?

    Instead of posing and preening as a red blooded socialist, he should put his mouth where his money is and stop hiding behind Blairite promises on tax.

    He wants the NHS to be properly funded, he wants good social care, a pay rise for all public sector workers, nationalisation of public utilities, a national education service, an end to tuition fees, more spending on welfare..................................That will cost a lot.

    This cannot be paid for by 95% paying no extra income tax or NI, and the rich and companies paying less than under Thatcher.

    Time for Corbyn and McDonnell to be honest on tax. If you want to turn back the clock to before Thatcher on spending, you have to turn back the clock on taxes too.

    Anything else is a lie.

    Labour are going to be surprised at just how mobile the richest 5% of taxpayers are..... Then it will be down to the 95% to make up the shortfall. Broken pledge right there.
    Are there figures on this mobility? A genuine question because the top rate has been up and down a bit over the past decade so has anyone bothered to count how many top payers emigrated and came back?
    Hold your nose and read this Telegraph article.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/19/tax-burden-wealthy-has-trebled-since-1970s-telegraph-analysis/

    The pips have not yet squeaked.
    Isn't that because the 1% are much wealthier hence paying more tax? just a reflection of increased inequality?
    Rob beat me to it.

    The UHNWIs are very mobile indeed, but they're not likely to fall within any national tax jurisdiction.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 17,860

    stevef said:

    Corbynistas don't want to talk about tax except to tell us that no one except those wearing top hats, pantomime capes, and gold watches will pay more.

    They want to talk about kittens and hamsters instead...............

    Eventually, Corbyn and his pigs from Animal Farm are going to have to explain how you pay for pre Thatcher state spending with post Thatcher levels of taxation.

    I'm willing to pay more income tax, why isnt Corbyn willing to admit that he will put it up to pay for those great socialist projects?

    The People are entitled to know.

    Is there any subject on the planet that we can have a thread about which doesn't lead you to harangue us about Corbyn? I mean, I like him, and I think he'd be a good PM, but I don't see the point of saying so on every thread. You've an absolute right to the opposite view, but the same applies. Diminishing returns and all that?
    Steve is supposedly a Blairite ultra-Brexiteer who hates Corbyn. I have my doubts he's a real person.
  • Big day for the public finances on Wednesday. The ONS will report on government borrowing in January, which is the month with the biggest tax receipts - and frequently a surplus, even where the year as a whole has a substantial deficit.

    The state of play is a cutting of the deficit of £6.6 billion to £50.0 billion in the 9 months of the fiscal year so far. The OBR not so long ago thought we would see borrowing rise by an increase of £3.9 billion across the year - so if we tread even on Wednesday, they could be £10bn wrong.

    If things go right for the government in the next three months, it is not unreasonably to think we could hit the £37-38bn mark, which was in fact, exactly what the OBR originally forecasted two years ago.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,465

    Big day for the public finances on Wednesday. The ONS will report on government borrowing in January, which is the month with the biggest tax receipts - and frequently a surplus, even where the year as a whole has a substantial deficit.

    The state of play is a cutting of the deficit of £6.6 billion to £50.0 billion in the 9 months of the fiscal year so far. The OBR not so long ago thought we would see borrowing rise by an increase of £3.9 billion across the year - so if we tread even on Wednesday, they could be £10bn wrong.

    If things go right for the government in the next three months, it is not unreasonably to think we could hit the £37-38bn mark, which was in fact, exactly what the OBR originally forecasted two years ago.

    Despite Brexit....

    That really would show up Osborne's Emergency Budget Project Fear pantomime for what it was. Fingers crossed!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 1,788
    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    John_M said:

    stevef said:

    Never mind hamsters rights Mr Corbyn -although I am very much in favour of hamsters rights.

    Its time for Corbyn to stop treating voters on the tax issue as if they are as dumb as hamsters.

    Corbyn has a long shopping list of spending plans. He wants to roll back spending to the days before Thatcher.

    Yet at the election he claims this can be done with 95% of the population paying no more income tax or NI, with the top rate of income tax up only to Gordon Brown 2010 levels, lower than under Thatcher, and with Corporation Tax only at the level under Gordon Brown.

    Pre Thatcher spending at Post Thatcher tax rates.

    Who does Mr Corbyn think he is fooling?

    Instead of posing and preening as a red blooded socialist, he should put his mouth where his money is and stop hiding behind Blairite promises on tax.

    He wants the NHS to be properly funded, he wants good social care, a pay rise for all public sector workers, nationalisation of public utilities, a national education service, an end to tuition fees, more spending on welfare..................................That will cost a lot.

    This cannot be paid for by 95% paying no extra income tax or NI, and the rich and companies paying less than under Thatcher.

    Time for Corbyn and McDonnell to be honest on tax. If you want to turn back the clock to before Thatcher on spending, you have to turn back the clock on taxes too.

    Anything else is a lie.

    Labour are going to be surprised at just how mobile the richest 5% of taxpayers are..... Then it will be down to the 95% to make up the shortfall. Broken pledge right there.
    Are there figures on this mobility? A genuine question because the top rate has been up and down a bit over the past decade so has anyone bothered to count how many top payers emigrated and came back?
    Hold your nose and read this Telegraph article.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/19/tax-burden-wealthy-has-trebled-since-1970s-telegraph-analysis/

    The pips have not yet squeaked.
    Isn't that because the 1% are much wealthier hence paying more tax? just a reflection of increased inequality?
    Except inequality is going down:

    https://goo.gl/yvBRDJ
    It is recently, but still up on the Seventies.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,859
    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    John_M said:

    stevef said:

    Never mind hamsters rights Mr Corbyn -although I am very much in favour of hamsters rights.

    Its time for Corbyn to stop treating voters on the tax issue as if they are as dumb as hamsters.

    Corbyn has a long shopping list of spending plans. He wants to roll back spending to the days before Thatcher.

    Yet at the election he claims this can be done with 95% of the population paying no more income tax or NI, with the top rate of income tax up only to Gordon Brown 2010 levels, lower than under Thatcher, and with Corporation Tax only at the level under Gordon Brown.

    Pre Thatcher spending at Post Thatcher tax rates.

    Who does Mr Corbyn think he is fooling?

    Instead of posing and preening as a red blooded socialist, he should put his mouth where his money is and stop hiding behind Blairite promises on tax.

    He wants the NHS to be properly funded, he wants good social care, a pay rise for all public sector workers, nationalisation of public utilities, a national education service, an end to tuition fees, more spending on welfare..................................That will cost a lot.

    This cannot be paid for by 95% paying no extra income tax or NI, and the rich and companies paying less than under Thatcher.

    Time for Corbyn and McDonnell to be honest on tax. If you want to turn back the clock to before Thatcher on spending, you have to turn back the clock on taxes too.

    Anything else is a lie.

    Labour are going to be surprised at just how mobile the richest 5% of taxpayers are..... Then it will be down to the 95% to make up the shortfall. Broken pledge right there.
    Are there figures on this mobility? A genuine question because the top rate has been up and down a bit over the past decade so has anyone bothered to count how many top payers emigrated and came back?
    Hold your nose and read this Telegraph article.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/19/tax-burden-wealthy-has-trebled-since-1970s-telegraph-analysis/

    The pips have not yet squeaked.
    Isn't that because the 1% are much wealthier hence paying more tax? just a reflection of increased inequality?
    Except inequality is going down:

    https://goo.gl/yvBRDJ
    It is recently, but still up on the Seventies.
    But the graph in the Telegraph shows a constant rise in the share paid for by the 1%. That cannot be explained by inequality, since it has been decreasing for the past decade.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,676
    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    HYUFD said:

    I tend to agree that politics has ground to a halt.

    The puzzling thing is how left wing Labour are at the moment and still doing alright in the polls. I think a lot of people like me forget that for Labour, the party platform has to take on policies in obscure subject areas to follow through the political narrative they wish to paint. It is ideologically driven and so the pacifism of the left is not just confined to defence policy but encompasses banning the sales of weapons, ammunition and military vehicles. Some of these ideas tend to be repellent to more centrist free minded voters or Tories.

    I do wonder if Corbyn will produce a manifesto in 2022 like the 1983 version, though much derided by opponents. Corbyn could claim after all that the electorate were enthused by his previous offering in 2017 and a more left wing manifesto might engender real change. The UK has elected left-wing governments in the past in 1945, 1950 and 1974, so without a split on the left it is a possibility of it happening again.

    Like the 1983 manifesto Corbyn will also be committed to keeping the UK out of the EU/EEC too.

    Of course in 1950 and October 1974 Labour only won with tiny majorities of 5 and 3 respectively.
    Corbyn should have the guts to draw up a Corbynista manifesto in 2022, and not hide behind Blairite tax pledges and slogans.
    Corbyn's proposed 50% top income tax rate is not Blairite
    His preposterous claim that only those earning more than £85,000 will pay more tax and that all his spending promises can be paid for with some modest tax increases is entirely Blairite in its dishonesty.
    Though Blair at least spent little more than 40% of gdp for most of his premiership and indeed around 35% in his first few years, the same as the tax take, Corbyn's promises mean spending at least close to 50% of gdp if not more
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 4,692
    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    HYUFD said:

    I tend to agree that politics has ground to a halt.

    The puzzling thing is how left wing Labour are at the moment and still doing alright in the polls. I think a lot of people like me forget that for Labour, the party platform has to take on policies in obscure subject areas to follow through the political narrative they wish to paint. It is ideologically driven and so the pacifism of the left is not just confined to defence policy but encompasses banning the sales of weapons, ammunition and military vehicles. Some of these ideas tend to be repellent to more centrist free minded voters or Tories.

    I do wonder if Corbyn will produce a manifesto in 2022 like the 1983 version, though much derided by opponents. Corbyn could claim after all that the electorate were enthused by his previous offering in 2017 and a more left wing manifesto might engender real change. The UK has elected left-wing governments in the past in 1945, 1950 and 1974, so without a split on the left it is a possibility of it happening again.

    Like the 1983 manifesto Corbyn will also be committed to keeping the UK out of the EU/EEC too.

    Of course in 1950 and October 1974 Labour only won with tiny majorities of 5 and 3 respectively.
    Corbyn should have the guts to draw up a Corbynista manifesto in 2022, and not hide behind Blairite tax pledges and slogans.
    Corbyn's proposed 50% top income tax rate is not Blairite
    But Thatcher had a 60% top rate until 1988.
    Over the course of the Thatcher years the top rate of income tax fell from 83% in 1979 to 40% by the time she left office in 1990
    Indeed - and it is greatly to Labour's discredit that it failed to reverse the 1988 higher rate tax cut.
This discussion has been closed.