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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Setting the scene for the May local elections –

SystemSystem Posts: 5,841
edited February 23 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Setting the scene for the May local elections –

Thanks to David Cowling, former head of political research at the BBC, for compiling this table.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 1,788
    first past the post
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 20,386
    The French really are surprisingly shit at rugby, these days.
  • 1980 is wrong.

    It should be Con -484 Lab +601 Lib +90

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_local_elections,_1980

    For the early missing years wikipedia gives:

    1978 Con +275 Lab -461 Lib -163
    1979 Con -423 Lab +766 Lib +136
    1981 Con -1193 Lab +988 Lib +306
    1982 Con -98 Lab -225 All +395
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,678
    Ah, 500+ gains for CON in 2017, such a good sign for the rest of the year.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,678
    1995 is remarkable.
  • Expect good Lib Dem gains this May. It will mean nothing though for national elections where politics is for grown ups.
  • The contrasting fortunes of the Conservatives and LibDems after they formed a government is striking:

    Con +238
    LibD -1788
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,678

    Expect good Lib Dem gains this May. It will mean nothing though for national elections where politics is for grown ups.

    I was quite surprised locally at the LDs doing poorly in several areas last year. In my area there were several formerly strong LD areas where I've been outright told the Tories did not even try, and yet they won comfortably. I suspect that would not be the case if the elections were happening this year.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,960
    Why can't people just make up their minds?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 7,960
    kle4 said:

    1995 is remarkable.

    A nice little wanting from history. Elections about three years after a major European political change.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 13,669
    So the 2018 baseline for Con is roughly what IDS achieved against Blair in 2002.

    Since then, in the 4n+2 round, Con are all of -12 out of c4200 seats being contested (Lab is +395, LD -519 and Others +182).
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 20,386
    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 11,296
    Let's not talk about the unimportant current shit, this is what matters & is totes gonna happen.

    'Scots Tories 'will launch bid to form next government'
    Ruth Davidson said her party hoped to win the 2021 Holyrood elections.'

    https://tinyurl.com/y9efsptv
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,678
    edited February 23
    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    I don't wish for it, and I know you didn't either, but when such a senior person says negotiating is pointless (which is what he is saying, since the whole point of a negotiation is for each side to try to 'cherry pick' things), it does rather suggest it isn't only in the UK where the extremist idiots are running the show, nor does telling the UK to eat shit and like it encourage them to eat that shit even if he is right.

    If silly analogies from the UK and such unwillingness to even contemplate even some give and take from the EU (which even in a strong position they would need to do) is what we can expect, it does seem like the sensible thing to do would be to declare right now that there is no possibility of a deal, and for each side to stop bothering and focus solely on mitigating measures.
  • SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    The danger for the EU and remainers is that if they lose UK opinion then no amount of talk of second referendums or meaningful votes will see anything but leave win easily
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 1,788
    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    Surely, Tusk is merely pointing out that "Brexit means Brexit"?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,179
    edited February 23
    Foxy said:

    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    Surely, Tusk is merely pointing out that "Brexit means Brexit"?
    I would imagine he is winding up the electorate against the EU
  • Foxy said:

    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    Surely, Tusk is merely pointing out that "Brexit means Brexit"?
    That's fair enough, but if that's the case, then really, what is the point of negotiating at all? Does the EU actually not give a flying feckity doodah? Maybe we should just pocket the 50 bil and blow it all on cocaine and hookers.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,678
    edited February 23
    Foxy said:

    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    Surely, Tusk is merely pointing out that "Brexit means Brexit"?
    No he isn't. He's saying we cannot 'cherry pick' our future relationship, which means negotiating as to the shape of that relationship is pointless since apparently there is only one outcome, and therefore the pretense of negotiation is a farce both sides should end.

    If you are saying his comments are merely reinforcing 'Brexit means Brexit' then I assume you are also not concerned about the negotiations, since there is only one outcome. In which case why have people been moaning about the government doing a poor job of it since there is only one outcome?

    Clearly the options are hard exit, or remain and that is it. If that is the choice you want, fine, it is now the one we have. If that means a terrible end for this country that's, well, terrible, but we can at least stop pretending negotiating has a point if 'brexit means brexit' means we cannot ask for anything.
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 20,386
    kle4 said:

    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    I don't wish for it, and I know you didn't either, but when such a senior person says negotiating is pointless (which is what he is saying, since the whole point of a negotiation is for each side to try to 'cherry pick' things), it does rather suggest it isn't only in the UK where the extremist idiots are running the show, nor does telling the UK to eat shit and like it encourage them to eat that shit even if he is right.

    If silly analogies from the UK and such unwillingness to even contemplate even some give and take from the EU (which even in a strong position they would need to do) is what we can expect, it does seem like the sensible thing to do would be to declare right now that there is no possibility of a deal, and for each side to stop bothering and focus solely on mitigating measures.
    It's idiotic. They clearly believe they can bully Britain into changing her mind, and reversing Brexit entirely. They are wrong. And stupidly, counter-productively wrong.

    But your analysis is right. The extremists on both sides are winning and we are headed for a Crash Brexit.

    I don't care any more. Just leave. The EU is like the world's most disappointing funfair, where every ride makes you vomit, or wonder at the staggering cost of your candyfloss, or question why you are hanging out in a place run by pedophile tinkers.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,678

    Let's not talk about the unimportant current shit, this is what matters & is totes gonna happen.

    'Scots Tories 'will launch bid to form next government'
    Ruth Davidson said her party hoped to win the 2021 Holyrood elections.'

    https://tinyurl.com/y9efsptv

    While accepting there were plenty of comments beforehand that SCON would not come anywhere even close to the gains they did make in 2017, and even if we were to think SLAB won't in fact revive much and if we were to think the SNP might drop further...I still don't believe her hope there will come to pass. I suppose dreams are nice.
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    Those figures prove that there is no relationship between parties' performances in local elections and subsequent performance in general elections.

    Neil Kinnock's Labour won huge numbers of council seats for example in 1986, just a year before losing the general election by a landslide.

    And Labour did even better in 1991, before losing its fourth general election in a row in 1992.

    William Hague's Tories did very well in 2000 and 2001 in local elections before losing its second biggest landslide ever to Labour in 2001.










  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 825
    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    indeed, let just tell 'em to sod off, no divorce bill, no money, no deal, they are shit scared of us becoming the tiger economy of Europe, of showing the rest of the EU that breaking away from their undemocratic, elite-run malfunction of an organisation can actually bring freedom and success, and even if we have to suffer short term loss, you know what - even if we have to suffer long term loss, stuff them, lets walk away with our dignity intact, and let us become a truly free, global trading and enterprising nation once more, its not like we don't have the relevant experience on our national CV.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 551
    edited February 23
    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    Donald Tusk is a distinguished former PM of one of the principal European states and talks sense. He is no extreme nationalist, unlike the members of the current PiS government. He stands head and shoulders above the motley rabble that constitutes the current UK cabinet.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 4,524
    edited February 23
    Vote on Soubry amendment now expected after Easter.

    Commons returns from Easter recess on Monday 16 April - so I wonder if vote might be just before Local Elections - possibly using that as leverage with rebels?

    Alternatively, if May fears defeat might the vote not just be put off until the Autumn? Is there any reason why any of the Brexit related Bills need to complete their passage so far in advance of Brexit?

    Might Govt therefore just stall all legislation until negotiations much further advanced?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,678
    kjohnw said:

    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    indeed, let just tell 'em to sod off, no divorce bill, no money, no deal, they are shit scared of us becoming the tiger economy of Europe, of showing the rest of the EU that breaking away from their undemocratic, elite-run malfunction of an organisation can actually bring freedom and success, and even if we have to suffer short term loss, you know what - even if we have to suffer long term loss, stuff them, lets walk away with our dignity intact, and let us become a truly free, global trading and enterprising nation once more, its not like we don't have the relevant experience on our national CV.
    I don't think they are scared of us breaking away super successfully, I think they truly believe we will indeed be much worse off. But they do seem to think that since they believe that to be true that for one we will agree, even though we already proved once we didn't (or that it would be worth it) and therefore there is no possibility we would continue to believe that and act accordingly. While not everyone in the UK who voted leave would accept that any price is worth paying, I get why they think if they try to magnify that price it could lead to a reversal, but it's so unnecessarily risky and for what? If we do remain or rejoin I firmly believe we need to be in all the way, since they always hated our reluctance and moaning, and if we remained out of sheet terror at the horribleness of what we face, that sure as hell wouldn't suddenly make us a happy, compliant member state.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 3,309
    edited February 23
    daodao said:

    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    Donald Tusk is a distinguished former PM of one of the principal European states and talks sense. He is no extreme nationalist, unlike the members of the current PiS government. He stands head and shoulders above the motley rabble that constitutes the current UK cabinet.
    He would still be living under effective Soviet rule if we hadn’t helped dig him and his compatriots out.
  • daodao said:

    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    Donald Tusk is a distinguished former PM of one of the principal European states and talks sense. He is no extreme nationalist, unlike the members of the current PiS government. He stands head and shoulders above the motley rabble that constitutes the current UK cabinet.
    I don't remember his name on any ballot papers I've had......
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 551
    welshowl said:

    daodao said:

    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    Donald Tusk is a distinguished former PM of one of the principal European states and talks sense. He is no extreme nationalist, unlike the members of the current PiS government. He stands head and shoulders above the motley rabble that constitutes the current UK cabinet.
    He would still be living under effective Soviet tulle if ww hadn’t helped dig him and his compatriots out.
    The British & American governments sacrificed Poland as part of the Yalta agreement with the world's worst ever tyrant.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 9,475
    daodao said:

    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    Donald Tusk is a distinguished former PM of one of the principal European states and talks sense. He is no extreme nationalist, unlike the members of the current PiS government. He stands head and shoulders above the motley rabble that constitutes the current UK cabinet.
    I'm not sure I consider Poland one of Europe's principal states. Slightly larger GDP than Belgium....?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,678
    daodao said:

    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    Donald Tusk is a distinguished former PM of one of the principal European states and talks sense. He is no extreme nationalist, unlike the members of the current PiS government. He stands head and shoulders above the motley rabble that constitutes the current UK cabinet.
    That may be so, in which case we should take him at his word and end negotiations now, since he is being very clear there's nothing to be gained from negotiations. Indeed, he is being very clear he and the EU are offended at the idea we should seek to negotiate anything, making it even clearer we should stop trying.

    That isn't my preference - I've always believed that for all our government's fault and the EU commission and EU leaders' faults, everyone believed that with some give and take everyone could arrive at a deal of some kind - but as he is someone of such sense as you say, let us assume he is right and stop all this anxiety ahead of March 2019 and unequivocally state all negotiations are ceasing and both sides can stop bullshitting and start preparing for a hard exit without the distraction of pretending negotiation will achieve anything.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 3,309
    daodao said:

    welshowl said:

    daodao said:

    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    Donald Tusk is a distinguished former PM of one of the principal European states and talks sense. He is no extreme nationalist, unlike the members of the current PiS government. He stands head and shoulders above the motley rabble that constitutes the current UK cabinet.
    He would still be living under effective Soviet tulle if ww hadn’t helped dig him and his compatriots out.
    The British & American governments sacrificed Poland as part of the Yalta agreement with the world's worst ever tyrant.
    Like we had a choice in 1945.

    Tusk is all that is wrong with the EU. He’s got influence over my life but I’ve never had the chance to fire him.

    His witterings anger me and just nudge me into the let’s just tell them to fuck right off column. We’ll live.
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,125
    Trumpton

    It appears that Rick Gates , former Trump aide and associate of Paul Manafort, who has turned on his former pal in a plea deal, may be about to drag Congressman Dana Rohrabacher into the messy pit. Rohrabacher has long been suspected of being in the pocket of Russian interests and may well have some questions to answer about just how entangled he is with them.
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 20,386
    daodao said:

    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    Donald Tusk is a distinguished former PM of one of the principal European states and talks sense. He is no extreme nationalist, unlike the members of the current PiS government. He stands head and shoulders above the motley rabble that constitutes the current UK cabinet.
    He's a fucking eurocratic toad, and he can fuck off. I didn't vote him into this position of weird power, nor did you. It wouldn't matter if he was the son of Jesus Christ and Abraham Lincoln using Margaret thatcher as a surrogate womb, he should have NO significant influence over our lives. We didn't vote for him. No one did.

    Look at the requirements for his job. "President of the European Council". How many on here even knew that was his official job? My guess is about 2 of us. And we are super-informed political geeks. His very existence is the utter antithesis of direct democracy. It is elitism encapsulated, a Byzantine jobs-for-the-boys system which is so arcane and opaque it is barely understandable, let alone changeable-by-vote, from the point of view of the average European.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_European_Council

    Tusk is in himself the Reason we must Leave.

    BTW I love this paragraph from the wiki entry:

    "The European Constitution, drafted by the European Convention, outlined the "President of the European Council" as a longer term and full-time chairmanship.[8] The Constitution was rejected by voters in two Member States during ratification but the changes envisaged to the European Council presidency were retained in the Treaty of Lisbon, which came into force on 1 December 2009."

    That is to say, they tried to smuggle in an embryonic European president, and hoped the voters wouldn't notice. The voters noticed, so they decide to ignore them, and force us to endure him (or her) anyway.

    Cunts.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,678
    welshowl said:

    daodao said:

    welshowl said:

    daodao said:

    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    Donald Tusk is a distinguished former PM of one of the principal European states and talks sense. He is no extreme nationalist, unlike the members of the current PiS government. He stands head and shoulders above the motley rabble that constitutes the current UK cabinet.
    He would still be living under effective Soviet tulle if ww hadn’t helped dig him and his compatriots out.
    The British & American governments sacrificed Poland as part of the Yalta agreement with the world's worst ever tyrant.
    His witterings anger me and just nudge me into the let’s just tell them to fuck right off column. We’ll live.
    And since he is a man of such sense, he must know there will be a significant such reaction. Will there be some who, so fearful of a hard brexit, switch on mass to the remain argument? Possibly, but that still looks a hard sell, so I have to assume Mr Tusk wants Britain to have a reaction such as you are having.

    Hence it being clear the idiots are running the show on both sides.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 551
    edited February 23
    Mortimer said:

    daodao said:

    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    Donald Tusk is a distinguished former PM of one of the principal European states and talks sense. He is no extreme nationalist, unlike the members of the current PiS government. He stands head and shoulders above the motley rabble that constitutes the current UK cabinet.
    I'm not sure I consider Poland one of Europe's principal states. Slightly larger GDP than Belgium....?
    Poland is 1 of the big 5 of the EU27 in terms of population, and thus influence. There are also more UK residents of Polish origin (both naturalised and with Polish citizenship) than from any other European country. It is not a minnow.
  • daodao said:

    welshowl said:

    daodao said:

    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    Donald Tusk is a distinguished former PM of one of the principal European states and talks sense. He is no extreme nationalist, unlike the members of the current PiS government. He stands head and shoulders above the motley rabble that constitutes the current UK cabinet.
    He would still be living under effective Soviet tulle if ww hadn’t helped dig him and his compatriots out.
    The British & American governments sacrificed Poland as part of the Yalta agreement with the world's worst ever tyrant.
    Nope. They simply decided they were not in apposition to go to war with the Russians and hoped to achieve more through diplomacy. And as Welshowl has already pointed out, if it were not for the US and UK, Tusk would still be living under communist rule.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 3,309
    daodao said:

    Mortimer said:

    daodao said:

    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    Donald Tusk is a distinguished former PM of one of the principal European states and talks sense. He is no extreme nationalist, unlike the members of the current PiS government. He stands head and shoulders above the motley rabble that constitutes the current UK cabinet.
    I'm not sure I consider Poland one of Europe's principal states. Slightly larger GDP than Belgium....?
    Poland is 1 of the big 5 of the EU27 in terms of population, and thus influence. There are also more UK residents of Polish origin (both naturalised and with Polish citizenship) than from any other European country. It is not a minnow.
    Wooooo. I’m scared. (not).
  • Mortimer said:

    daodao said:

    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    Donald Tusk is a distinguished former PM of one of the principal European states and talks sense. He is no extreme nationalist, unlike the members of the current PiS government. He stands head and shoulders above the motley rabble that constitutes the current UK cabinet.
    I'm not sure I consider Poland one of Europe's principal states. Slightly larger GDP than Belgium....?
    Its principal export is people.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 1,788
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    Surely, Tusk is merely pointing out that "Brexit means Brexit"?
    No he isn't. He's saying we cannot 'cherry pick' our future relationship, which means negotiating as to the shape of that relationship is pointless since apparently there is only one outcome, and therefore the pretense of negotiation is a farce both sides should end.

    If you are saying his comments are merely reinforcing 'Brexit means Brexit' then I assume you are also not concerned about the negotiations, since there is only one outcome. In which case why have people been moaning about the government doing a poor job of it since there is only one outcome?

    Clearly the options are hard exit, or remain and that is it. If that is the choice you want, fine, it is now the one we have. If that means a terrible end for this country that's, well, terrible, but we can at least stop pretending negotiating has a point if 'brexit means brexit' means we cannot ask for anything.
    The only thing to negotiate is the process and transition. Tusk is merely agreeing with our government that Brexit means Brexit. Post Brexit we will have an external 3rd country relationship to the EU.
  • daodao said:

    welshowl said:

    daodao said:

    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    Donald Tusk is a distinguished former PM of one of the principal European states and talks sense. He is no extreme nationalist, unlike the members of the current PiS government. He stands head and shoulders above the motley rabble that constitutes the current UK cabinet.
    He would still be living under effective Soviet tulle if ww hadn’t helped dig him and his compatriots out.
    The British & American governments sacrificed Poland as part of the Yalta agreement with the world's worst ever tyrant.
    I'd say a certain Mr Hitler was rather worse as far as Poland was concered.

    Although that didn't stop the Polish government supporting Germany rather than Czechoslovakia in 1938.

    Big mistake.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 5,262
    daodao said:

    Mortimer said:

    daodao said:

    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    Donald Tusk is a distinguished former PM of one of the principal European states and talks sense. He is no extreme nationalist, unlike the members of the current PiS government. He stands head and shoulders above the motley rabble that constitutes the current UK cabinet.
    I'm not sure I consider Poland one of Europe's principal states. Slightly larger GDP than Belgium....?
    Poland is 1 of the big 5 of the EU27 in terms of population, and thus influence. There are also more UK residents of Polish origin (both naturalised and with Polish citizenship) than from any other European country. It is not a minnow.
    Lovely little non sequitur there - ”in terms of population, and thus influence”. How does that work?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,678
    edited February 23
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    Surely, Tusk is merely pointing out that "Brexit means Brexit"?
    No he isn't. He's saying we cannot 'cherry pick' our future relationship, which means negotiating as to tanything.
    The only thing to negotiate is the process and transition. Tusk is merely agreeing with our government that Brexit means Brexit. Post Brexit we will have an external 3rd country relationship to the EU.
    And the EU has exactly the same relationship with all non-EU countries does it? If it doesn't, then there is something to negotiate and you are wrong. If the EU does have the exact same relationship with all other non-EU countries then you are right, and I am right that we should stop negotiating since why should we care to accommodate anything they want during the transition period, why have a transition period, if we won't get anything out of it at the end? If you are saying there is nothing for us to achieve in our relationship post-EU, then what exactly is the incentive to give them anything they want in a transition? And clearly they do want some things for that transition, since they've been moaning about that for months.

    Negotiation means both sides will get something, even if one gets more out of it than the other. You and Tusk both appear to be saying we will get nothing, but we have to give them things for the transition, which isn't a negotiation.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 551
    Ishmael_Z said:

    daodao said:

    Mortimer said:

    daodao said:

    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    Donald Tusk is a distinguished former PM of one of the principal European states and talks sense. He is no extreme nationalist, unlike the members of the current PiS government. He stands head and shoulders above the motley rabble that constitutes the current UK cabinet.
    I'm not sure I consider Poland one of Europe's principal states. Slightly larger GDP than Belgium....?
    Poland is 1 of the big 5 of the EU27 in terms of population, and thus influence. There are also more UK residents of Polish origin (both naturalised and with Polish citizenship) than from any other European country. It is not a minnow.
    Lovely little non sequitur there - ”in terms of population, and thus influence”. How does that work?
    Within the context of the EU, population size is related to influence.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 1,788
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    Surely, Tusk is merely pointing out that "Brexit means Brexit"?
    No he isn't. He's saying we cannot 'cherry pick' our future relationship, which means negotiating as to tanything.
    The only thing to negotiate is the process and transition. Tusk is merely agreeing with our government that Brexit means Brexit. Post Brexit we will have an external 3rd country relationship to the EU.
    And the EU has exactly the same relationship with all non-EU countries does it? If it doesn't, then there is something to negotiate and you are wrong. If the EU does have the exact same relationship with all other non-EU countries then you are right, and I am right that we should stop negotiating since why should we care to accommodate anything they want during the transition period, why have a transition period, if we won't get anything out of it at the end. If you are saying there is nothing for us to achieve in our relationship post-EU, then what exactly is the incentive to give them anything they want in a transition? And clearly they do want some things for that transition, since they've been moaning about that for months.
    Yep. I have long advocated hard Brexit as the next step.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 3,309
    daodao said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    daodao said:

    Mortimer said:

    daodao said:

    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    Donald Tusk is a distinguished former PM of one of the principal European states and talks sense. He is no extreme nationalist, unlike the members of the current PiS government. He stands head and shoulders above the motley rabble that constitutes the current UK cabinet.
    I'm not sure I consider Poland one of Europe's principal states. Slightly larger GDP than Belgium....?
    Poland is 1 of the big 5 of the EU27 in terms of population, and thus influence. There are also more UK residents of Polish origin (both naturalised and with Polish citizenship) than from any other European country. It is not a minnow.
    Lovely little non sequitur there - ”in terms of population, and thus influence”. How does that work?
    Within the context of the EU, population size is related to influence.
    Yeah right. Bless.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 8,097
    Scott_P said:
    When I clicked on the Telegraph website a few minutes ago, I nearly had a heart attack as I thought Matt had died.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 19,463
    Tusk made people a little cross tonight? The trick is to remember how little his opinion on anything matters. He is a functionary with no power base of his own.

    What is slightly more concerning is that he is his masters voice. I genuinely thought that after stage one had been sorted some sort of reality had broken out. I fear that the ever more irritating actions of our remainers has got the EU back into lala land. Hey ho.
  • daodao said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    daodao said:

    Mortimer said:

    daodao said:

    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    Donald Tusk is a distinguished former PM of one of the principal European states and talks sense. He is no extreme nationalist, unlike the members of the current PiS government. He stands head and shoulders above the motley rabble that constitutes the current UK cabinet.
    I'm not sure I consider Poland one of Europe's principal states. Slightly larger GDP than Belgium....?
    Poland is 1 of the big 5 of the EU27 in terms of population, and thus influence. There are also more UK residents of Polish origin (both naturalised and with Polish citizenship) than from any other European country. It is not a minnow.
    Lovely little non sequitur there - ”in terms of population, and thus influence”. How does that work?
    Within the context of the EU, population size is related to influence.
    You do know Poland is at loggerheads with the EU and Tusk has nothing to do with their government
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 495

    Mortimer said:

    daodao said:

    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    Donald Tusk is a distinguished former PM of one of the principal European states and talks sense. He is no extreme nationalist, unlike the members of the current PiS government. He stands head and shoulders above the motley rabble that constitutes the current UK cabinet.
    I'm not sure I consider Poland one of Europe's principal states. Slightly larger GDP than Belgium....?
    Its principal export is people.
    I think you have a point - I don't think it is right people like this come to this country:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Kawczynski

    It would be ironic if the Brexit supporting MP born in Poland had berated a British born person who was suffering hard times.

    From Wiki "In October 2013, Kawczynski received widespread press attention for berating a one-legged wheelchair user for begging outside the Houses of Parliament."

    Surely a man after your own heart another_Richard!

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,678
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    Surely, Tusk is merely pointing out that "Brexit means Brexit"?
    No he isn't. He's saying we cannot 'cherry pick' our future relationship, which means negotiating as to tanything.
    The only thing to negotiate is the process and transition. Tusk is merely agreeing with our government that Brexit means Brexit. Post Brexit we will have an external 3rd country relationship to the EU.
    And the EU has exactly the same relationship with all non-EU countries does it? If it doesn't, then there is something to negotiate and you are wrong. If the EU does have the exact same relationship with all other non-EU countries then you are right, and I am right that we should stop negotiating since why should we care to accommodate anything they want during the transition period, why have a transition period, if we won't get anything out of it at the end. If you are saying there is nothing for us to achieve in our relationship post-EU, then what exactly is the incentive to give them anything they want in a transition? And clearly they do want some things for that transition, since they've been moaning about that for months.
    Yep. I have long advocated hard Brexit as the next step.
    Good for you. Please tell that to the EU 'negotiators' (who apparently have nothing to negotiate since they seem pretty clear that the process and transition are fixed as well) so we can all save a bunch of time on pointlessness. Or get on to Labour to become the party of remain already, since apparently the choice is remain or hard brexit, and unfortunately we won't get a firm choice of either with just the LDs advocating remain.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 9,475
    welshowl said:

    daodao said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    daodao said:

    Mortimer said:

    daodao said:

    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    Donald Tusk is a distinguished former PM of one of the principal European states and talks sense. He is no extreme nationalist, unlike the members of the current PiS government. He stands head and shoulders above the motley rabble that constitutes the current UK cabinet.
    I'm not sure I consider Poland one of Europe's principal states. Slightly larger GDP than Belgium....?
    Poland is 1 of the big 5 of the EU27 in terms of population, and thus influence. There are also more UK residents of Polish origin (both naturalised and with Polish citizenship) than from any other European country. It is not a minnow.
    Lovely little non sequitur there - ”in terms of population, and thus influence”. How does that work?
    Within the context of the EU, population size is related to influence.
    Yeah right. Bless.
    Indeed. In the EU, its all about da money.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,678
    DavidL said:

    Tusk made people a little cross tonight? The trick is to remember how little his opinion on anything matters. He is a functionary with no power base of his own.

    What is slightly more concerning is that he is his masters voice.

    That is, indeed, the problem. I think there is perhaps something to SeanT's theory that, sensing weakness (for understandable reasons) the EU have decided to play even harder than they were already in the hope we pull the plug on brexiting entirely, but that's the reasoning of extremists, just as extremists have so much pull on our side.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 1,660
    First thought from that table is that both Labour and Tories are pushing on a slightly open door because of the inevitable UKIP losses. The LDs very slightly too due to their losses 4 years ago, but last year means we shouldn't be too confident on their behalf. Another weak year for them (between +99 and -50) imho.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 19,463
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    Tusk made people a little cross tonight? The trick is to remember how little his opinion on anything matters. He is a functionary with no power base of his own.

    What is slightly more concerning is that he is his masters voice.

    That is, indeed, the problem. I think there is perhaps something to SeanT's theory that, sensing weakness (for understandable reasons) the EU have decided to play even harder than they were already in the hope we pull the plug on brexiting entirely, but that's the reasoning of extremists, just as extremists have so much pull on our side.
    Yes they are that stupid. Unfortunate.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,678

    daodao said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    daodao said:

    Mortimer said:

    daodao said:

    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    Donald Tusk is a distinguished former PM of one of the principal European states and talks sense. He is no extreme nationalist, unlike the members of the current PiS government. He stands head and shoulders above the motley rabble that constitutes the current UK cabinet.
    I'm not sure I consider Poland one of Europe's principal states. Slightly larger GDP than Belgium....?
    Poland is 1 of the big 5 of the EU27 in terms of population, and thus influence. There are also more UK residents of Polish origin (both naturalised and with Polish citizenship) than from any other European country. It is not a minnow.
    Lovely little non sequitur there - ”in terms of population, and thus influence”. How does that work?
    Within the context of the EU, population size is related to influence.
    You do know Poland is at loggerheads with the EU and Tusk has nothing to do with their government
    At loggerheads over logging, IIRC, among other things.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,678
    edited February 23
    Quincel said:

    First thought from that table is that both Labour and Tories are pushing on a slightly open door because of the inevitable UKIP losses. The LDs very slightly too due to their losses 4 years ago, but last year means we shouldn't be too confident on their behalf. Another weak year for them (between +99 and -50) imho.

    Any point at which Cable becomes vulnerable? He's pretty invisible already.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 1,660
    kle4 said:

    Quincel said:

    First thought from that table is that both Labour and Tories are pushing on a slightly open door because of the inevitable UKIP losses. The LDs very slightly too due to their losses 4 years ago, but last year means we shouldn't be too confident on their behalf. Another weak year for them (between +99 and -50) imho.

    Any point at which Cable becomes vulnerable? He's pretty invisible already.
    Difficult to judge membership's mood - and indeed expectations. I suspect that unless the campaign is seen to go badly it won't take too many gains (30+?) to fit a narrative of 'Slow but in the right direction'. Can't speak for others, but my view on Cable is borne in no small part from knowledge of how few alternatives are.
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 20,386
    Totally ON topic. I recently bought another batch of wine from Amazon Fresh.

    Apart from their tendency to overpackage (all that bloody cardboard!) their service is peerless. The selection is huge, the prices are pretty good, and (maybe most importantly) they reliably deliver in a specified hour the very next day (sometimes the same evening). No one else can match all this.

    But I just got a couple of corked wines (in the £30 bracket) and rang them. They immediately refunded. Again: exemplary.

    But what would they do if you ordered some wines in the £100-£1000 a bottle bracket (and they sell them) and you then said, Sorry, this is corked, I want a refund. How could they possibly argue, or demand a test? They would simply have to yield and give you the money back, even if you were a nasty person and you were totally lying, and you guzzled the lovely wine. £1000 a bottle.

    That's a big risk. I guess their algorithm tells them that people willing to spend squillions on wine are people who are unlikely to commit basic fraud.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 1,788
    Mortimer said:

    welshowl said:

    daodao said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    daodao said:

    Mortimer said:

    daodao said:

    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    Donald Tusk is a distinguished former PM of one of the principal European states and talks sense. He is no extreme nationalist, unlike the members of the current PiS government. He stands head and shoulders above the motley rabble that constitutes the current UK cabinet.
    I'm not sure I consider Poland one of Europe's principal states. Slightly larger GDP than Belgium....?
    Poland is 1 of the big 5 of the EU27 in terms of population, and thus influence. There are also more UK residents of Polish origin (both naturalised and with Polish citizenship) than from any other European country. It is not a minnow.
    Lovely little non sequitur there - ”in terms of population, and thus influence”. How does that work?
    Within the context of the EU, population size is related to influence.
    Yeah right. Bless.
    Indeed. In the EU, its all about da money.
    Nah, it really isn't.

    The EU objective is stability of the longlterm project. We do notnwant to be in the SM or CU, or to have the relationship of accession countries. More like Belarus than anything.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 495
    kle4 said:

    Quincel said:

    First thought from that table is that both Labour and Tories are pushing on a slightly open door because of the inevitable UKIP losses. The LDs very slightly too due to their losses 4 years ago, but last year means we shouldn't be too confident on their behalf. Another weak year for them (between +99 and -50) imho.

    Any point at which Cable becomes vulnerable. He's pretty invisible already.
    He was on the daily politics on bbc2 today, advocating why Roy Jenkins was his political hero.

    I have a lot of time for Vince Cable but I think he is a bit too old to be leading a tiny parliamentary party that is unlikely to be in Government for a very long time. What the LD need is somebody with youth and vigour, not someone drawing their pension, whilst he exudes stability and experience the LD are not really electorally in a place to capitalize on this. They need a risk taker like Charles Kennedy i.e. opposing the Iraq war.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 6,466
    welshowl said:

    daodao said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    daodao said:

    Mortimer said:

    daodao said:

    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    Donald Tusk is a distinguished former PM of one of the principal European states and talks sense. He is no extreme nationalist, unlike the members of the current PiS government. He stands head and shoulders above the motley rabble that constitutes the current UK cabinet.
    I'm not sure I consider Poland one of Europe's principal states. Slightly larger GDP than Belgium....?
    Poland is 1 of the big 5 of the EU27 in terms of population, and thus influence. There are also more UK residents of Polish origin (both naturalised and with Polish citizenship) than from any other European country. It is not a minnow.
    Lovely little non sequitur there - ”in terms of population, and thus influence”. How does that work?
    Within the context of the EU, population size is related to influence.
    Yeah right. Bless.
    It's true. QMV allocates votes based on population, so it's a little like the US electoral college. For measures requiring a qualified majority, you need 55% of the states (so currently 16 iirc) and 65% of the population. To form a blocking minority, you need 4 states and 35% of the population.

    I imagine they'll rerun the weighting exercise post-Brexit and reallocate votes accordingly. It's going to be quite hard to form a blocking minority against the EZ countries once we're gone.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,678
    Speaking of local councils, one area that could really do with an election this year but is not due them is City of York Council. The Tory part of the Tory-LD coalition there removed its group leader, who was leader of the council, and he's just resigned formally as leader, and from the group with another cllr, and the council failed to elect a replacement, and that means the coalition has a majority of one but still no overall leader in place at present.

    https://www.yorkmix.com/news/york-council-crisis-7-things-need-know-current-shambles/
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 9,629
    Iain McNicol has resigned as General Secretary of the Labour Party. #ChangeIsComing
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 19,463
    That EU negotiating position in full:

    1 we want the U.K. to be clear about what it wants so we can say no.
    2. We must say no because making others less hesitant about going down this path could be fatal to the project.
    3. We can always count on the broadcast media, some of the press and remainer orientated MPs to support our position, no matter how absurd or self defeating.
    4. This will ultimately push the U.K. into agreeing a deal which addresses our budget crisis.
    5. Well, that’s it really.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 551
    edited February 23
    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    welshowl said:

    daodao said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    daodao said:

    Mortimer said:

    daodao said:

    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    Donald Tusk is a distinguished former PM of one of the principal European states and talks sense. He is no extreme nationalist, unlike the members of the current PiS government. He stands head and shoulders above the motley rabble that constitutes the current UK cabinet.
    I'm not sure I consider Poland one of Europe's principal states. Slightly larger GDP than Belgium....?
    Poland is 1 of the big 5 of the EU27 in terms of population, and thus influence. There are also more UK residents of Polish origin (both naturalised and with Polish citizenship) than from any other European country. It is not a minnow.
    Lovely little non sequitur there - ”in terms of population, and thus influence”. How does that work?
    Within the context of the EU, population size is related to influence.
    Yeah right. Bless.
    Indeed. In the EU, its all about da money.
    Nah, it really isn't.

    The EU objective is stability of the longlterm project. We do notnwant to be in the SM or CU, or to have the relationship of accession countries. More like Belarus than anything.
    Fortress Europe stretches from Brest to Brest - crossing the border at Brest-Litewsk is a lengthy process - and not just because of the change of rail gauge. I expect that crossing from England to France will become equally tedious post Brexit.
  • Mortimer said:

    daodao said:

    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    Donald Tusk is a distinguished former PM of one of the principal European states and talks sense. He is no extreme nationalist, unlike the members of the current PiS government. He stands head and shoulders above the motley rabble that constitutes the current UK cabinet.
    I'm not sure I consider Poland one of Europe's principal states. Slightly larger GDP than Belgium....?
    Its principal export is people.
    I think you have a point - I don't think it is right people like this come to this country:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Kawczynski

    It would be ironic if the Brexit supporting MP born in Poland had berated a British born person who was suffering hard times.

    From Wiki "In October 2013, Kawczynski received widespread press attention for berating a one-legged wheelchair user for begging outside the Houses of Parliament."

    Surely a man after your own heart another_Richard!

    No, I just ignore the homeless (apart from putting in the odd tin in the foodbank) and wish the government would spend a bit more money on them instead of on triple-lock pensions.

    The people who I might potentially lose my temper with are the lard-arses who drive around supermarkets in little buggy cars.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,457
    DavidL said:

    That EU negotiating position in full:

    1 we want the U.K. to be clear about what it wants so we can say no.
    2. We must say no because making others less hesitant about going down this path could be fatal to the project.
    3. We can always count on the broadcast media, some of the press and remainer orientated MPs to support our position, no matter how absurd or self defeating.
    4. This will ultimately push the U.K. into agreeing a deal which addresses our budget crisis.
    5. Well, that’s it really.

    By Jove - I think you have absolutely nailed it.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,465
    DavidL said:

    That EU negotiating position in full:

    1 we want the U.K. to be clear about what it wants so we can say no.
    2. We must say no because making others less hesitant about going down this path could be fatal to the project.
    3. We can always count on the broadcast media, some of the press and remainer orientated MPs to support our position, no matter how absurd or self defeating.
    4. This will ultimately push the U.K. into agreeing a deal which addresses our budget crisis.
    5. Well, that’s it really.

    6. Oh, bollocks......
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 1,660

    kle4 said:

    Quincel said:

    First thought from that table is that both Labour and Tories are pushing on a slightly open door because of the inevitable UKIP losses. The LDs very slightly too due to their losses 4 years ago, but last year means we shouldn't be too confident on their behalf. Another weak year for them (between +99 and -50) imho.

    Any point at which Cable becomes vulnerable. He's pretty invisible already.
    He was on the daily politics on bbc2 today, advocating why Roy Jenkins was his political hero.

    I have a lot of time for Vince Cable but I think he is a bit too old to be leading a tiny parliamentary party that is unlikely to be in Government for a very long time. What the LD need is somebody with youth and vigour, not someone drawing their pension, whilst he exudes stability and experience the LD are not really electorally in a place to capitalize on this. They need a risk taker like Charles Kennedy i.e. opposing the Iraq war.
    In fairness, the LDs think that too. But Jo Swinson didn't run and neither did any new MPs. Maybe Norman Lamb would have been better, but limited options are very significant here.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,713

    Iain McNicol has resigned as General Secretary of the Labour Party. #ChangeIsComing

    Yes. It certainly is. Labour is now collaborating with the Communist party.

    Congratulations.
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 20,386

    DavidL said:

    That EU negotiating position in full:

    1 we want the U.K. to be clear about what it wants so we can say no.
    2. We must say no because making others less hesitant about going down this path could be fatal to the project.
    3. We can always count on the broadcast media, some of the press and remainer orientated MPs to support our position, no matter how absurd or self defeating.
    4. This will ultimately push the U.K. into agreeing a deal which addresses our budget crisis.
    5. Well, that’s it really.

    6. Oh, bollocks......
    7. JACOB REES MOGG
  • glwglw Posts: 4,207
    edited February 23
    The Manafort story (boy is he in trouble) seems to have gained a new European dimension, and potentially a rather prominent one at that.
    The indictment accuses Manafort of paying the former politicians, informally known as the "Hapsburg group," to appear to be "independent" analysts when in fact they were paid lobbyists. Some of the covert lobbying took place in the U.S.

    The indictment says the group was managed by a former European chancellor. Court papers accuse Manafort of using offshore accounts to pay the group more than 2 million euros.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,678
    SeanT said:

    DavidL said:

    That EU negotiating position in full:

    1 we want the U.K. to be clear about what it wants so we can say no.
    2. We must say no because making others less hesitant about going down this path could be fatal to the project.
    3. We can always count on the broadcast media, some of the press and remainer orientated MPs to support our position, no matter how absurd or self defeating.
    4. This will ultimately push the U.K. into agreeing a deal which addresses our budget crisis.
    5. Well, that’s it really.

    6. Oh, bollocks......
    7. JACOB REES MOGG
    8. Oh bollocks again.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,465

    What the LD need is somebody with youth and vigour

    Who doesn't have views from the thirteenth century.....
  • kle4 said:

    Speaking of local councils, one area that could really do with an election this year but is not due them is City of York Council. The Tory part of the Tory-LD coalition there removed its group leader, who was leader of the council, and he's just resigned formally as leader, and from the group with another cllr, and the council failed to elect a replacement, and that means the coalition has a majority of one but still no overall leader in place at present.

    https://www.yorkmix.com/news/york-council-crisis-7-things-need-know-current-shambles/

    Its odd that the Conservatives now lead York council IIRC they had zero councillors there in 2003.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 6,425
    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    "Ambitious managed divergence" makes no sense whatever as a policy. Donald Tusk is doing May a favour by rejecting it so she doesn't have to explain what it means, far less implement it. As Sarah Wollaston accurately, if cattily puts it:

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,678
    Cyclefree said:

    Iain McNicol has resigned as General Secretary of the Labour Party. #ChangeIsComing

    Yes. It certainly is. Labour is now collaborating with the Communist party.

    Congratulations.
    Which communist party?

    Communist Party of Britain?
    Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)?
    Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist-Leninist)?
    Communist Party of Great Britain (Provisional Central Committee)?
    New Communist Party of Britain?
    Revolutionary Communist Group?
    Revolutionary Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)?

    Or even further afield?!
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 9,475
    edited February 23

    Iain McNicol has resigned as General Secretary of the Labour Party. #ChangeIsComing

    Do you realise how sinister that hashtag sounds?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,678
    TGOHF said:

    hts://twitter.com/telegraph/status/967154722078707712

    Are they still harping on the spy stuff?
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 5,262
    daodao said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    daodao said:

    Mortimer said:

    daodao said:

    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    Donald Tusk is a distinguished former PM of one of the principal European states and talks sense. He is no extreme nationalist, unlike the members of the current PiS government. He stands head and shoulders above the motley rabble that constitutes the current UK cabinet.
    I'm not sure I consider Poland one of Europe's principal states. Slightly larger GDP than Belgium....?
    Poland is 1 of the big 5 of the EU27 in terms of population, and thus influence. There are also more UK residents of Polish origin (both naturalised and with Polish citizenship) than from any other European country. It is not a minnow.
    Lovely little non sequitur there - ”in terms of population, and thus influence”. How does that work?
    Within the context of the EU, population size is related to influence.
    By what mechanism?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,678

    What the LD need is somebody with youth and vigour

    Who doesn't have views from the thirteenth century.....
    Not my favourite century. Fifteenth would be much better.
  • SeanT said:

    Totally ON topic. I recently bought another batch of wine from Amazon Fresh.

    Apart from their tendency to overpackage (all that bloody cardboard!) their service is peerless. The selection is huge, the prices are pretty good, and (maybe most importantly) they reliably deliver in a specified hour the very next day (sometimes the same evening). No one else can match all this.

    But I just got a couple of corked wines (in the £30 bracket) and rang them. They immediately refunded. Again: exemplary.

    But what would they do if you ordered some wines in the £100-£1000 a bottle bracket (and they sell them) and you then said, Sorry, this is corked, I want a refund. How could they possibly argue, or demand a test? They would simply have to yield and give you the money back, even if you were a nasty person and you were totally lying, and you guzzled the lovely wine. £1000 a bottle.

    That's a big risk. I guess their algorithm tells them that people willing to spend squillions on wine are people who are unlikely to commit basic fraud.

    That all sounds very tiring.

    Wouldn't it be easier to buy at the supermarket ?
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 3,309

    Iain McNicol has resigned as General Secretary of the Labour Party. #ChangeIsComing

    Sounds as cuddly as “the future belongs to me”. You do realise this?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,457
    kle4 said:

    TGOHF said:

    hts://twitter.com/telegraph/status/967154722078707712

    Are they still harping on the spy stuff?
    MI6 ? Yes that is their job.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 6,466
    edited February 23
    RIP the Labour I grew up with. Welcome zombie Labour with its SWP overlords.

    Fair play to Tusk, he's doing his best to save us from another May-is-really-from-Mars speech next Friday. As a great man once said, 'Everyone's got a plan until they get punched in the face'.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 1,788
    edited February 23
    TGOHF said:

    kle4 said:

    TGOHF said:

    hts://twitter.com/telegraph/status/967154722078707712

    Are they still harping on the spy stuff?
    MI6 ? Yes that is their job.
    Mi6 deal with external spying, Mi5 are internal counter spying.

    Unless Mi6 were using the spy who loved manholes for our own interests.

  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 20,386

    SeanT said:

    Totally ON topic. I recently bought another batch of wine from Amazon Fresh.

    Apart from their tendency to overpackage (all that bloody cardboard!) their service is peerless. The selection is huge, the prices are pretty good, and (maybe most importantly) they reliably deliver in a specified hour the very next day (sometimes the same evening). No one else can match all this.

    But I just got a couple of corked wines (in the £30 bracket) and rang them. They immediately refunded. Again: exemplary.

    But what would they do if you ordered some wines in the £100-£1000 a bottle bracket (and they sell them) and you then said, Sorry, this is corked, I want a refund. How could they possibly argue, or demand a test? They would simply have to yield and give you the money back, even if you were a nasty person and you were totally lying, and you guzzled the lovely wine. £1000 a bottle.

    That's a big risk. I guess their algorithm tells them that people willing to spend squillions on wine are people who are unlikely to commit basic fraud.

    That all sounds very tiring.

    Wouldn't it be easier to buy at the supermarket ?
    I sense you are not addressing my major First World Conundrum with the seriousness it deserves
  • John_M said:

    RIP the Labour I grew up with. Welcome zombie Labour with it's SWP overlords.

    They have arranged a joint meeting with momentum and the communist party to discuss cooperation.

    It is a very sad day for millions of genuine labour party members who must be in despair
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,457

    John_M said:

    RIP the Labour I grew up with. Welcome zombie Labour with it's SWP overlords.

    They have arranged a joint meeting with momentum and the communist party to discuss cooperation.

    It is a very sad day for millions of genuine labour party members who must be in despair
    THey should either quit or fight back.

    Abject surrender is so undignified.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 6,466
    Foxy said:

    TGOHF said:

    kle4 said:

    TGOHF said:

    hts://twitter.com/telegraph/status/967154722078707712

    Are they still harping on the spy stuff?
    MI6 ? Yes that is their job.
    Mi6 deal with external spying, Mi5 are internal counter spying.

    Unless Mi6 were using the spyswho loved manholes for our own interests.

    Please. It's Security Service and Secret Intelligence Service. Counter Espionage and Espionage respectively, though of course, after Brexit once we've purged all the filthy foreign influences from our language, it'll be spying and spying stopping.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,678
    edited February 23

    John_M said:

    RIP the Labour I grew up with. Welcome zombie Labour with it's SWP overlords.

    They have arranged a joint meeting with momentum and the communist party to discuss cooperation.

    It is a very sad day for millions of genuine labour party members who must be in despair
    I don't see why it should be sad for those members - if the situation is not so bad as for them to leave (or the existence of the Tory government so bad they feel they cannot leave and hurt the opposition) then they are getting either what they want or what they deserve, same as any party when a change of direction comes as a new clique rises.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 551
    Ishmael_Z said:

    daodao said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    daodao said:

    Mortimer said:

    daodao said:

    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    Donald Tusk is a distinguished former PM of one of the principal European states and talks sense. He is no extreme nationalist, unlike the members of the current PiS government. He stands head and shoulders above the motley rabble that constitutes the current UK cabinet.
    I'm not sure I consider Poland one of Europe's principal states. Slightly larger GDP than Belgium....?
    Poland is 1 of the big 5 of the EU27 in terms of population, and thus influence. There are also more UK residents of Polish origin (both naturalised and with Polish citizenship) than from any other European country. It is not a minnow.
    Lovely little non sequitur there - ”in terms of population, and thus influence”. How does that work?
    Within the context of the EU, population size is related to influence.
    By what mechanism?
    QMV - votes are allocated based on population.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 6,466
    Ishmael_Z said:

    daodao said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    daodao said:

    Mortimer said:

    daodao said:

    SeanT said:

    Look at this shit

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43175201

    Donald Tusk, who once warned us Brexit would "be the end of western political civilisation" now tells us that any position taken by Britain, other than total supplication to whatever the EU wants, is based on "illusion" and "cherry picking".

    You know what, fuck him. I didn't vote for him. No one did. No one in Britain. Maybe no one ever. Why does this no-mark meaningless non-elected twat have a tiny iota of influence in British politics in the first place? Fuck him and his fucking chortling friends. Fuck Europe. Fuck them all. Fuck them to fuckdom, and then bugger them back to Sodom.

    Let's just leave, in March 2019, and let the world adjust. Not a penny more shall be paid to Brussels. It is over. We will cope. We will survive. We managed Hitler, Stalin the Kaiser and Napoleon. We can cope with "Donald Tusk". And they can take their fucking bratwursts and "pizzas" and shove them up their eurocratic butts.

    Hard Brexit it is. OUT.

    Donald Tusk is a distinguished former PM of one of the principal European states and talks sense. He is no extreme nationalist, unlike the members of the current PiS government. He stands head and shoulders above the motley rabble that constitutes the current UK cabinet.
    I'm not sure I consider Poland one of Europe's principal states. Slightly larger GDP than Belgium....?
    Poland is 1 of the big 5 of the EU27 in terms of population, and thus influence. There are also more UK residents of Polish origin (both naturalised and with Polish citizenship) than from any other European country. It is not a minnow.
    Lovely little non sequitur there - ”in terms of population, and thus influence”. How does that work?
    Within the context of the EU, population size is related to influence.
    By what mechanism?
    See my super-informative post downthread. Honestly, I toil tirelessly in the EU mines to bring you these nuggets and I'm just cast aside like the faded petals of a dead flower.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,678
    John_M said:

    Foxy said:

    TGOHF said:

    kle4 said:

    TGOHF said:

    hts://twitter.com/telegraph/status/967154722078707712

    Are they still harping on the spy stuff?
    MI6 ? Yes that is their job.
    Mi6 deal with external spying, Mi5 are internal counter spying.

    Unless Mi6 were using the spyswho loved manholes for our own interests.

    Please. It's Security Service and Secret Intelligence Service. Counter Espionage and Espionage respectively, though of course, after Brexit once we've purged all the filthy foreign influences from our language, it'll be spying and spying stopping.
    I do like that the official logos for the SS and SIS includes their MI5 and MI6 designations.

    Heck, the webpage for the SIS not only has the logo include MI6, it has a video entitled 'SIS(MI6) at a glance' and then gives up the pretense, as the 'latest' crawl of updates shows stories like 'MI6 chief does X' and 'MI6 does y'.

    The SIS at least has their url actually be www.sis etc. whereas the security service don't bother and just have www.MI-5 etc.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 9,629

    John_M said:

    RIP the Labour I grew up with. Welcome zombie Labour with it's SWP overlords.

    They have arranged a joint meeting with momentum and the communist party to discuss cooperation.

    It is a very sad day for millions of genuine labour party members who must be in despair
    Millions of Labour Party members???

    There are 800k in total aren't there

    Time for an early night

    xx
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 5,510

    John_M said:

    RIP the Labour I grew up with. Welcome zombie Labour with it's SWP overlords.

    They have arranged a joint meeting with momentum and the communist party to discuss cooperation.

    It is a very sad day for millions of genuine labour party members who must be in despair
    Millions of Labour Party members???

    There are 800k in total aren't there

    Time for an early night

    xx
    You seem happy with the undemocratic cesspool that Labour is descending into.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 6,466
    Floater said:

    John_M said:

    RIP the Labour I grew up with. Welcome zombie Labour with it's SWP overlords.

    They have arranged a joint meeting with momentum and the communist party to discuss cooperation.

    It is a very sad day for millions of genuine labour party members who must be in despair
    Millions of Labour Party members???

    There are 800k in total aren't there

    Time for an early night

    xx
    You seem happy with the undemocratic cesspool that Labour is descending into.
    800k members. Looks in rude health to me.
This discussion has been closed.