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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Foreign Office goes on the PR offence over Russian Salisbu

SystemSystem Posts: 5,841
edited March 20 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Foreign Office goes on the PR offence over Russian Salisbury disinformation

The nerve agent came from Sweden,Ukraine did it to frame Russia,It was contamination from the UK's own research facility…

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • FF43FF43 Posts: 6,425
    Corbyn's equivocation is baffling.
  • saddosaddo Posts: 407
    Could be Corbyn is the complete idiot most non cult follower's see
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 27,693
    Second! Like Remain. And in sobering news:

  • It is his default setting.

    He cannot criticise Moscow.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 6,425
    I fully expected Leavers to blame Remainers and the EU for the shortcomings of Brexit. I didn't expect them to blame other Brexiteers.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 4,418
    FF43 said:

    Corbyn's equivocation is baffling.

    It is not baffling at all. Corbyn has been totally rigid in his views for 40 years and is not going to change it now.
  • Second! Like Remain. And in sobering news:

    Yeah, it explains the lack of interviews/photos with the victims. I think they are having slow agonising deaths, which seems to fit the modus operandi of Moscow.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 18,108
    Is the video for domestic consumption, I wonder?

    If so, then it's encouraging to see the government fighting back.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,465
    Does the FO go on the PR offence - or on the PR offensive?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,465

    Is the video for domestic consumption, I wonder?

    If so, then it's encouraging to see the government fighting back.

    I wonder if it will be shared with Jeremy Corbyn?
  • JackWJackW Posts: 13,195

    Does the FO go on the PR offence - or on the PR offensive?

    I vote for both ....
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 19,184
    The government (indeed, all governments) should do a lot more of this. It is a good thing for governments to communicate their policy positions in clearly understood and relevant ways.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 8,097

    FF43 said:

    Corbyn's equivocation is baffling.

    It is not baffling at all. Corbyn has been totally rigid in his views for 40 years and is not going to change it now.
    He's like that Japanese soldier who spent year's in the jungle, refusing to accept that the war was over.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,465
    tlg86 said:

    FF43 said:

    Corbyn's equivocation is baffling.

    It is not baffling at all. Corbyn has been totally rigid in his views for 40 years and is not going to change it now.
    He's like that Japanese soldier who spent year's in the jungle, refusing to accept that the war was over.
    At least the Japanese soldier gave up after several decades.....
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,417
    Well done to the Foreign Office for this. I wouldn’t be surprised if someone friendly hasn’t redone the whole thing in Russian by the end of the day.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 19,334

    Second! Like Remain. And in sobering news:

    An important question is what this means for the policeman who was infected.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 41,900
    It's a smart video. Some of the comments are nuts, but that's Twitter...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,417
    edited March 20

    Second! Like Remain. And in sobering news:

    Yeah, it explains the lack of interviews/photos with the victims. I think they are having slow agonising deaths, which seems to fit the modus operandi of Moscow.
    The policeman was reported to be awake and talking a couple of weeks ago, but nothing’s been said about him since then. The two Russians were last reported as being in a coma, possibly medically induced, but no updates on them have been given since a couple of days after the event. They could be awake and talking, or they could be still unconscious. It’s clearly not in our interest to say any more at this stage, obviously MI5 and MI6 are all over it and those involved in their treatment. Are they even still in Salisbury General Hospital?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 27,476
    edited March 20
    As anybody who has been on Facebook or Twitter or even here the russian misinformation has worked on some.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,465

    It's a smart video. Some of the comments are nuts, but that's Twitter...

    The next version will add those Russian troll-farm comments too...as further evience of media manipulation from Moscow.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 5,184
    For diving fans, this is a thing of beauty...
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43472827
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 4,789

    As anybody who has been on Facebook or Twitter or even here the russian misinformation has worked on some.


    Which one of us on PB is Russian?

    Come on, own up.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 17,860
    Putin's election result among Russians living in the UK was 52%.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 18,108

    Putin's election result among Russians living in the UK was 52%.

    So 48% are now under police guard?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 19,334

    As anybody who has been on Facebook or Twitter or even here the russian misinformation has worked on some.


    Which one of us on PB is Russian?

    Come on, own up.
    I'm always in a hurry, so I'm always rushin' ...

    I'll get my coat...
  • Nigelb said:

    For diving fans, this is a thing of beauty...
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43472827

    He's been watching Dele Alli.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 17,860

    Putin's election result among Russians living in the UK was 52%.

    So 48% are now under police guard?
    The 48% are getting behind the will of the Putin.
  • I think we all know what's coming.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,417

    As anybody who has been on Facebook or Twitter or even here the russian misinformation has worked on some.

    Which one of us on PB is Russian?

    Come on, own up.
    My wife’s Russian, and when I’m not in the sandpit I live in Salisbury.
    There’s been a few fun discussions in the past couple of weeks. ;)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,417
    edited March 20
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 2,631

    Nigelb said:

    For diving fans, this is a thing of beauty...
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43472827

    He's been watching Dele Alli.
    Your curlers are showing!
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 11,296
    'The chairman and the board have full confidence in...'
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 9,193
    For the craven knave that is Paul Ryan that is quite a big statement.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 8,291

    Nigelb said:

    For diving fans, this is a thing of beauty...
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43472827

    He's been watching Dele Alli.
    Now that's a dive....

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43472827
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,417
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 18,108
    Have we noticed this?

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/20/scottish-court-allows-petition-on-whether-uk-can-unilaterally-stop-brexit

    It seems very surprising to me, but IANAL (let alone a Scottish one).
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 7,366
    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 660

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If you kill double agents it discourages people from being double agents. Which is a plausible motive.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 2,776

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    It is possible to be plausible and utterly wrong.
    Plausibility is in the eye of the beholder.
    I didn't hear him, so I have no idea.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,179
    Sandpit said:
    Local reports pilot ejected but no news on how he is. RAF appealing for witnesses
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,179

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If you kill double agents it discourages people from being double agents. Which is a plausible motive.
    Report today that if the OPCW confirm the UK's idenification that it is a military grade nerve agent the matter will immediately become an issue for the United Nations
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,417
    edited March 20

    Sandpit said:
    Local reports pilot ejected but no news on how he is. RAF appealing for witnesses
    Fingers crossed a couple more members of the Martin-Baker tie club.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 7,741
    How much have we cut the World Service over the years?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,179
    edited March 20
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:
    Local reports pilot ejected but no news on how he is. RAF appealing for witnesses
    Fingers crossed a couple more members of the Martin-Baker imagetie club.
    Video does show plume of black smoke from the area that looks like the runway

    Update

    Witness saw pilot eject just before the aircraft hit the runway
  • JackWJackW Posts: 13,195

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    Putin don't do subtle too often .....

    Invasions of Georgia, Chechnya, Crimea, Eastern Ukraine, multiple extra judicial murders at home and abroad, rigged elections and sports doping to name but several.

    Pour encourager les autres is a Putin speciality dish.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 660

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If you kill double agents it discourages people from being double agents. Which is a plausible motive.
    Report today that if the OPCW confirm the UK's idenification that it is a military grade nerve agent the matter will immediately become an issue for the United Nations
    I wonder what they can actually do, Russia have a veto so they must be limited in terms of passing a resolution but simply following procedures already in place I assume?
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 2,776

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If you kill double agents it discourages people from being double agents. Which is a plausible motive.
    Report today that if the OPCW confirm the UK's idenification that it is a military grade nerve agent the matter will immediately become an issue for the United Nations
    I wonder what a non military grade nerve agent is.

    Social grade, play grade, terrorist grade, freshers' week grade?

    I guess some insecticides work by effecting the nervous system, so Agricultural / Horticultural may be a possibility.

    Anyone know the right answer?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,179

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If you kill double agents it discourages people from being double agents. Which is a plausible motive.
    Report today that if the OPCW confirm the UK's idenification that it is a military grade nerve agent the matter will immediately become an issue for the United Nations
    I wonder what they can actually do, Russia have a veto so they must be limited in terms of passing a resolution but simply following procedures already in place I assume?
    Not sure to be honest
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,465
    philiph said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If you kill double agents it discourages people from being double agents. Which is a plausible motive.
    Report today that if the OPCW confirm the UK's idenification that it is a military grade nerve agent the matter will immediately become an issue for the United Nations
    I wonder what a non military grade nerve agent is.

    Social grade, play grade, terrorist grade, freshers' week grade?

    I guess some insecticides work by effecting the nervous system, so Agricultural / Horticultural may be a possibility.

    Anyone know the right answer?
    Ask Jeremy Corbyn. It must be one of the issues we shouldn't rush to conclusions about...
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,136

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If you kill double agents it discourages people from being double agents. Which is a plausible motive.
    Report today that if the OPCW confirm the UK's idenification that it is a military grade nerve agent the matter will immediately become an issue for the United Nations
    What if it turns out to be some non-military grade nerve agent that our friendly neighbourhood terrorist has fixed up? Won't the UN be interested?

    Good afternoon, everyone.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,179
    philiph said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If you kill double agents it discourages people from being double agents. Which is a plausible motive.
    Report today that if the OPCW confirm the UK's idenification that it is a military grade nerve agent the matter will immediately become an issue for the United Nations
    I wonder what a non military grade nerve agent is.

    Social grade, play grade, terrorist grade, freshers' week grade?

    I guess some insecticides work by effecting the nervous system, so Agricultural / Horticultural may be a possibility.

    Anyone know the right answer?
    As I understand it it can only be produced and delivered by military experts
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,179

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:
    Local reports pilot ejected but no news on how he is. RAF appealing for witnesses
    Fingers crossed a couple more members of the Martin-Baker imagetie club.
    Video does show plume of black smoke from the area that looks like the runway

    Update

    Witness saw pilot eject just before the aircraft hit the runway
    Update

    Witness saw pilot eject just before the aircraft hit the runway
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,179
    AnneJGP said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If you kill double agents it discourages people from being double agents. Which is a plausible motive.
    Report today that if the OPCW confirm the UK's idenification that it is a military grade nerve agent the matter will immediately become an issue for the United Nations
    What if it turns out to be some non-military grade nerve agent that our friendly neighbourhood terrorist has fixed up? Won't the UN be interested?

    Good afternoon, everyone.
    I would expect so but the government scientists have identified it as military grade
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 5,262
    philiph said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If you kill double agents it discourages people from being double agents. Which is a plausible motive.
    Report today that if the OPCW confirm the UK's idenification that it is a military grade nerve agent the matter will immediately become an issue for the United Nations
    I wonder what a non military grade nerve agent is.

    Social grade, play grade, terrorist grade, freshers' week grade?

    I guess some insecticides work by effecting the nervous system, so Agricultural / Horticultural may be a possibility.

    Anyone know the right answer?
    Yes agricultural, these things are organophosphates and don't just affect the nervous system, they do it in the same way by inhibiting acetylcholinesterase.
  • How much have we cut the World Service over the years?
    Nothing, all we did was force the BBC to fund it instead of the Foreign Office.

    From 2015

    The government is to invest £85m a year in enhancing BBC services around the world including in Russia, North Korea, the Middle East and Africa.

    The money is to help "build the global reach of the World Service" to half a billion people and "increase access to news and information".

    Director general Tony Hall said he "warmly welcomed" the announcement.

    The government will provide £34m between 2016-17 and £85m a year from 2017-18 for digital, TV and radio.

    The next review of this funding will be in 2020.

    'Half a billion people target'

    "This new funding is the single biggest increase in the World Service budget ever committed by any government," said Lord Hall.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-34902244

  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,860
    I'm surprised they didn't project it on to the side of a bus.

    The problem the FO has got is.....

    1 Boris

    2. They've got form.

    Johnson of the FO just isn't credible however smart the graphics.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 14,077
    Meanwhile in the continuing Labour civil war, tweet of the day:



  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 5,184
    philiph said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If you kill double agents it discourages people from being double agents. Which is a plausible motive.
    Report today that if the OPCW confirm the UK's idenification that it is a military grade nerve agent the matter will immediately become an issue for the United Nations
    I wonder what a non military grade nerve agent is.

    Social grade, play grade, terrorist grade, freshers' week grade?

    I guess some insecticides work by effecting the nervous system, so Agricultural / Horticultural may be a possibility.

    Anyone know the right answer?
    The sarin used in the Japanese underground attack a decade ago would probably fall into the non military grade category...

    Had it been properly weaponised - as opposed to poking plastic bags with umbrella tips - there would have been many many more casualties.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,136

    Meanwhile in the continuing Labour civil war, tweet of the day:



    That leaves me entirely in the dark as to which wing of the party is complaining about which other wing.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 41,900
    Good afternoon, Miss JGP.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 2,776
    Ishmael_Z said:

    philiph said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If you kill double agents it discourages people from being double agents. Which is a plausible motive.
    Report today that if the OPCW confirm the UK's idenification that it is a military grade nerve agent the matter will immediately become an issue for the United Nations
    I wonder what a non military grade nerve agent is.

    Social grade, play grade, terrorist grade, freshers' week grade?

    I guess some insecticides work by effecting the nervous system, so Agricultural / Horticultural may be a possibility.

    Anyone know the right answer?
    Yes agricultural, these things are organophosphates and don't just affect the nervous system, they do it in the same way by inhibiting acetylcholinesterase.
    Which I now know have an inhibiting effect on the transmission by nerve synapses.
    Learn something new every day! Thank you.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 2,776
    edited March 20
    3/10? A long way from highly naïve.

    However, it makes a story and political point.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 7,366
    JackW said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    Putin don't do subtle too often .....

    Invasions of Georgia, Chechnya, Crimea, Eastern Ukraine, multiple extra judicial murders at home and abroad, rigged elections and sports doping to name but several.

    Pour encourager les autres is a Putin speciality dish.
    I think pour encourager les autres is a strong motive yes, but given that this man was part of a spy exchange, such an act would cause alarm in Russian spy circles too. Whatever we think of the other items you mention, all have a clear geopolitical motive.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 17,860
    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/there-will-be-no-uk-brexit-deal-if-irish-border-issue-is-not-resolved-simon-coveney-36725038.html

    There will be no formal “Withdrawal Agreement” between the EU and UK if the Irish border issue is not resolved, Tánaiste Simon Coveney has told the Dáil.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,859

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/there-will-be-no-uk-brexit-deal-if-irish-border-issue-is-not-resolved-simon-coveney-36725038.html

    There will be no formal “Withdrawal Agreement” between the EU and UK if the Irish border issue is not resolved, Tánaiste Simon Coveney has told the Dáil.

    Yes, we know. Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. :p
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,136

    Good afternoon, Miss JGP.

    Good afternoon, Mr Dancer.
  • Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 1,939
    Ishmael_Z said:

    philiph said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If you kill double agents it discourages people from being double agents. Which is a plausible motive.
    Report today that if the OPCW confirm the UK's idenification that it is a military grade nerve agent the matter will immediately become an issue for the United Nations
    I wonder what a non military grade nerve agent is.

    Social grade, play grade, terrorist grade, freshers' week grade?

    I guess some insecticides work by effecting the nervous system, so Agricultural / Horticultural may be a possibility.

    Anyone know the right answer?
    Yes agricultural, these things are organophosphates and don't just affect the nervous system, they do it in the same way by inhibiting acetylcholinesterase.
    They aren't as potent though
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,064
    edited March 20

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    Not plausible at all. If the Russian government knew they didn't do it, they should be pulling out all the stops to show the world that is the case and to find out who did it and is trying to frame them Instead they are indulging in snide twattery on Twitter and Putin is giving menacing interviews on TV rather than phoning up May to pledge his cooperation.

    Corbyn is either idiotic or actively malign in his approach to international affairs.
  • glwglw Posts: 4,207
    JonathanD said:

    Corbyn is either idiotic or actively malign in his approach to international affairs.

    Why not both?
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 2,776
    edited March 20

    JackW said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    Putin don't do subtle too often .....

    Invasions of Georgia, Chechnya, Crimea, Eastern Ukraine, multiple extra judicial murders at home and abroad, rigged elections and sports doping to name but several.

    Pour encourager les autres is a Putin speciality dish.
    I think pour encourager les autres is a strong motive yes, but given that this man was part of a spy exchange, such an act would cause alarm in Russian spy circles too. Whatever we think of the other items you mention, all have a clear geopolitical motive.
    Hypothetical question(s)

    Assuming it was a Russian state sanctioned action, who do you think would approve the use of military grade nerve agent in a foreign country?
    How far up the food chain would you have to go to get authority?

    Assuming it was Russian nerve gas delivered outside state control:
    If it was nerve agent deployed without authority, how long would you expect the user or the person responsible at the facility that lost it to stay in position, and maybe stay alive?
    What motive would anyone have in an unofficial deployment?

    The family seem to have had rotten luck. Mother, Father, Son and Daughter all meeting rapid demise. It may all be coincidence. Or not.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 7,366
    More on topic, I think that is a pretty dreadful piece of media to come from the Foreign Office. Palmerston famously held the floor of the Commons for 3 hours. Now we bitch at our opponents on Twitter. Sadly we live in a diminished age.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,465

    How much have we cut the World Service over the years?
    Nothing, all we did was force the BBC to fund it instead of the Foreign Office.

    From 2015

    The government is to invest £85m a year in enhancing BBC services around the world including in Russia, North Korea, the Middle East and Africa.

    The money is to help "build the global reach of the World Service" to half a billion people and "increase access to news and information".

    Director general Tony Hall said he "warmly welcomed" the announcement.

    The government will provide £34m between 2016-17 and £85m a year from 2017-18 for digital, TV and radio.

    The next review of this funding will be in 2020.

    'Half a billion people target'

    "This new funding is the single biggest increase in the World Service budget ever committed by any government," said Lord Hall.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-34902244

    Part of the trade-off for keeping the egregious licence fee in place.....
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 5,262
    Blue_rog said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    philiph said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If you kill double agents it discourages people from being double agents. Which is a plausible motive.
    Report today that if the OPCW confirm the UK's idenification that it is a military grade nerve agent the matter will immediately become an issue for the United Nations
    I wonder what a non military grade nerve agent is.

    Social grade, play grade, terrorist grade, freshers' week grade?

    I guess some insecticides work by effecting the nervous system, so Agricultural / Horticultural may be a possibility.

    Anyone know the right answer?
    Yes agricultural, these things are organophosphates and don't just affect the nervous system, they do it in the same way by inhibiting acetylcholinesterase.
    They aren't as potent though
    There was a spoof documentary about farmers being poisoned by organophosphates they were using as insecticide on turnip weevils (or something), where the interviewer says to the farmer that it is a slight consolation that at least he has got rid of the insects; the farmer says, Actually, no, because although OPs are lethally poisonous to humans they are only a mild irritant to turnip weevils.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 7,366
    JonathanD said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    Not plausible at all. If the Russian government knew they didn't do it, they should be pulling out all the stops to show the world that is the case and to find out who did it and is trying to frame them Instead they are indulging in snide twattery on Twitter and Putin is giving menacing interviews on TV rather than phoning up May to pledge his cooperation.

    Corbyn is either idiotic or actively malign in his approach to international affairs.
    I only have some snippets on Radio 4 to go on, but is asking for a sample that they can examine not what the Russians are doing?
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 5,262
    JonathanD said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    Not plausible at all. If the Russian government knew they didn't do it, they should be pulling out all the stops to show the world that is the case and to find out who did it and is trying to frame them Instead they are indulging in snide twattery on Twitter and Putin is giving menacing interviews on TV rather than phoning up May to pledge his cooperation.

    Corbyn is either idiotic or actively malign in his approach to international affairs.
    I think the point someone made this morning is very telling, that if they were above board they would have expressed, and given other evidence of, concern for their innocent citizen Iulia.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,465

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it, then Putin would almost certainly be at war with whoever it was by now.

    So Russia did it.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,179

    More on topic, I think that is a pretty dreadful piece of media to come from the Foreign Office. Palmerston famously held the floor of the Commons for 3 hours. Now we bitch at our opponents on Twitter. Sadly we live in a diminished age.

    The video is excellent but maybe not if you are pro Russia or Corbyn
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 5,661
    ... and there seems to be a large orange LibDem panel on it.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 5,262

    More on topic, I think that is a pretty dreadful piece of media to come from the Foreign Office. Palmerston famously held the floor of the Commons for 3 hours. Now we bitch at our opponents on Twitter. Sadly we live in a diminished age.

    You are right, but what to do? You can't put the social media genie back in the bottle. We have the POTUS, and the Russian Embassy, using twitter trolling as the continuation of diplomacy by other means. Either we join in, or if we are silent, the world doesn't think "how dignified," it thinks "UK pwned, lulz :lol: :lol: :lol:"
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,051

    More on topic, I think that is a pretty dreadful piece of media to come from the Foreign Office. Palmerston famously held the floor of the Commons for 3 hours. Now we bitch at our opponents on Twitter. Sadly we live in a diminished age.

    The video is excellent but maybe not if you are pro Russia or Corbyn
    I would suggest that the video is simply a reflection of the times we are in, where no politician or public authority can hold anyone's attention for more than a few minutes.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 5,792
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Blue_rog said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    philiph said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If you kill double agents it discourages people from being double agents. Which is a plausible motive.
    Report today that if the OPCW confirm the UK's idenification that it is a military grade nerve agent the matter will immediately become an issue for the United Nations
    I wonder what a non military grade nerve agent is.

    Social grade, play grade, terrorist grade, freshers' week grade?

    I guess some insecticides work by effecting the nervous system, so Agricultural / Horticultural may be a possibility.

    Anyone know the right answer?
    Yes agricultural, these things are organophosphates and don't just affect the nervous system, they do it in the same way by inhibiting acetylcholinesterase.
    They aren't as potent though
    There was a spoof documentary about farmers being poisoned by organophosphates they were using as insecticide on turnip weevils (or something), where the interviewer says to the farmer that it is a slight consolation that at least he has got rid of the insects; the farmer says, Actually, no, because although OPs are lethally poisonous to humans they are only a mild irritant to turnip weevils.
    Sounds like a good advertisement for organic farming.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 5,262

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Blue_rog said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    philiph said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If you kill double agents it discourages people from being double agents. Which is a plausible motive.
    Report today that if the OPCW confirm the UK's idenification that it is a military grade nerve agent the matter will immediately become an issue for the United Nations
    I wonder what a non military grade nerve agent is.

    Social grade, play grade, terrorist grade, freshers' week grade?

    I guess some insecticides work by effecting the nervous system, so Agricultural / Horticultural may be a possibility.

    Anyone know the right answer?
    Yes agricultural, these things are organophosphates and don't just affect the nervous system, they do it in the same way by inhibiting acetylcholinesterase.
    They aren't as potent though
    There was a spoof documentary about farmers being poisoned by organophosphates they were using as insecticide on turnip weevils (or something), where the interviewer says to the farmer that it is a slight consolation that at least he has got rid of the insects; the farmer says, Actually, no, because although OPs are lethally poisonous to humans they are only a mild irritant to turnip weevils.
    Sounds like a good advertisement for organic farming.
    It was a spoof...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 1,788
    philiph said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    philiph said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If you kill double agents it discourages people from being double agents. Which is a plausible motive.
    Report today that if the OPCW confirm the UK's idenification that it is a military grade nerve agent the matter will immediately become an issue for the United Nations
    I wonder what a non military grade nerve agent is.

    Social grade, play grade, terrorist grade, freshers' week grade?

    I guess some insecticides work by effecting the nervous system, so Agricultural / Horticultural may be a possibility.

    Anyone know the right answer?
    Yes agricultural, these things are organophosphates and don't just affect the nervous system, they do it in the same way by inhibiting acetylcholinesterase.
    Which I now know have an inhibiting effect on the transmission by nerve synapses.
    Learn something new every day! Thank you.
    Acetyl Choline is the neuro-transmitter of the peripheral autonomic nerves and neuromuscular junctions. It is broken down by acetylcholinesterase, so acetylcholinesterase inhibitors increase the action of acetyl-choline.

    There is some Acetyl Choline in the central nervous system (this is one mechanism of anti Alzheimer drugs), but it is less important, so the effect of these agents are on the peripheral nerves, causing asphyxia by paralysis if untreated. There is no true antidote, though drugs like atropine can moderate the effect. It is mostly a matter of supportive care while it wears off.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,306

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it, then Putin would almost certainly be at war with whoever it was by now.

    So Russia did it.

    Russia did it. And Russia wants everyone to know they did it.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 20,730
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,860

    The government (indeed, all governments) should do a lot more of this. It is a good thing for governments to communicate their policy positions in clearly understood and relevant ways.

    Explanation is fine but to use humour to explain the assassination of two possibly three people reads like propaganda. It would be more appropriate for a COI ad warning on the dangers of eating too many chocolates at Christmas
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,051
    Ishmael_Z said:

    More on topic, I think that is a pretty dreadful piece of media to come from the Foreign Office. Palmerston famously held the floor of the Commons for 3 hours. Now we bitch at our opponents on Twitter. Sadly we live in a diminished age.

    You are right, but what to do? You can't put the social media genie back in the bottle. We have the POTUS, and the Russian Embassy, using twitter trolling as the continuation of diplomacy by other means. Either we join in, or if we are silent, the world doesn't think "how dignified," it thinks "UK pwned, lulz :lol: :lol: :lol:"
    The Chinese have a solution to this.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,064

    JonathanD said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    Not plausible at all. If the Russian government knew they didn't do it, they should be pulling out all the stops to show the world that is the case and to find out who did it and is trying to frame them Instead they are indulging in snide twattery on Twitter and Putin is giving menacing interviews on TV rather than phoning up May to pledge his cooperation.

    Corbyn is either idiotic or actively malign in his approach to international affairs.
    I only have some snippets on Radio 4 to go on, but is asking for a sample that they can examine not what the Russians are doing?
    If Russia was serious about resolving this matter, Putin would have phoned May, offered his cooperation and then asked for a sample. Russia would have had the high ground and the UK couldn't have said no.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,306
    edited March 20

    ... and there seems to be a large orange LibDem panel on it.

    Not obvious on the front page though. Does seem somewhat underhand.

    I've seen Labour/Tory equivalents and you can tell from the front page what they are (at least at 2nd glance).

  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,713

    Second! Like Remain. And in sobering news:

    Yeah, it explains the lack of interviews/photos with the victims. I think they are having slow agonising deaths, which seems to fit the modus operandi of Moscow.
    I really hope that the poor policeman survives.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 5,661

    More on topic, I think that is a pretty dreadful piece of media to come from the Foreign Office. Palmerston famously held the floor of the Commons for 3 hours. Now we bitch at our opponents on Twitter. Sadly we live in a diminished age.

    The video is excellent but maybe not if you are pro Russia or Corbyn
    +1
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 1,467

    ... and there seems to be a large orange LibDem panel on it.
    This Lib Dem newspaper seems to be much more objective than the Express, the Telegraph, the Guardian, the BBC..... Even the Guido Fawkes internet pages.

    What is Guido complaining about?
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 3,309
    edited March 20
    delete
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 4,418

    More on topic, I think that is a pretty dreadful piece of media to come from the Foreign Office. Palmerston famously held the floor of the Commons for 3 hours. Now we bitch at our opponents on Twitter. Sadly we live in a diminished age.

    Ah. Putin's man on PB
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 1,788
    Cyclefree said:



    Second! Like Remain. And in sobering news:

    Yeah, it explains the lack of interviews/photos with the victims. I think they are having slow agonising deaths, which seems to fit the modus operandi of Moscow.
    I really hope that the poor policeman survives.
    I thought he had been discharged. The limiting factor for the other two would be whether they were asphyxiated before the ambulance arrived. After that they would be artificially ventilated. It is possible that they are "locked in"; a state of being conscious but paralysed.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 3,309
    welshowl said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    The motive would be "pour encourager les autres" ie don't step out of line because we know you know we can get you, even if you are abroad. Otherwise you'd surely just bump them off with a bash on the head or a standard 9mm pistol which could be anyone (so to speak).

    However, as the unfortunate victims are not actually dead and are seemingly hanging on by a thread, it would seem something went "wrong" with the administration of the nerve agent.
This discussion has been closed.