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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Get ready for the final Brexit battle: the Electoral Commissio

SystemSystem Posts: 5,841
edited March 31 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Get ready for the final Brexit battle: the Electoral Commission’s probe on Vote Leave’s spending

Matthew Elliott, Vote Leave's Chief Executive, admitting on Friday that if the Electoral Commission or courts find against them, the result is unsafe. pic.twitter.com/7ECT9v6BlO

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 8,066
    Yawn.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 4,413
    edited March 31
    tlg86 said:

    Yawn.

    You may yawn mate but if the Commission does rule against Vote Leave then the outcome could be de-legitimised.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 6,373
    edited March 31
    Dreary front page from the Telegraph. My eye is surprisingly attracted by Meghan and her flowers.

    On the Brexit issue, we're stuffed either way. Typical of the whole thing, really.
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 821
    how about the £9 million spent on the remain pre-referendum leaflet by HMG ?. Remain far outspent leave. This is nothing other than an orchestrated attack by those wanting reverse the result because they lost. Had the result gone the other way there would have been no chance of a second referendum.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 7,700
    Slow news day at the Telegraph? What's that story on the right of the front page? Putin bombs are a threat to us all, says Williamson, who is Secretary of State for Defence and for stating the bleeding obvious.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 998
    kjohnw said:

    how about the £9 million spent on the remain pre-referendum leaflet by HMG ?. Remain far outspent leave. This is nothing other than an orchestrated attack by those wanting reverse the result because they lost. Had the result gone the other way there would have been no chance of a second referendum.

    Yep, it's all rather weak beer and fails at the first hurdle. No one can credibly claims an unfair financial playing field when Remain spent so much more, even before adding in the millions of undeclared public funding.

    As such only committed remainers will be 'persuaded' and no views will change.
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 821
    There have been spending issues with all parties during elections but that does not mean we rerun a GE. The people got a say and they said leave. the EU debate has been going on for 40 years in this country, not just during a campaign, there were public debates, leaflets from both sides, the people have chosen, accept democracy
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 14,008
    I am no doubt late to this one, but do I detect the hand of John McD?

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 10,102

    tlg86 said:

    Yawn.

    You may yawn mate but if the Commission does rule against Vote Leave then the outcome could be de-legitimised.
    ' The Liberal Democrats have been fined £18,000 for breaking spending rules in last year's EU referendum. '

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42411144

    Or perhaps we could look at general election irregularities, there's quite a few to chose from:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39289195

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38234883
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 13,658
    You just know that Gina Miller is preparing a court case that turns on A50(1) i.e. "Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements." - and that if the referendum result was unsound, that brings into doubt whether the decision was taken in accordance with the UK's constitutional requirements.

    FWIW, the general public won't care. Remain spent more, I think (?) and had the bonus of several millions for the government's pre-campaign leaflet. Besides, if BeLeave was a bona fide organisation, then had their funding gone direct from donor to them, then they could have done exactly what they did anyway: the dispute seems to revolve on a very narrow point of law. That might or might not have implications for those involved but it's highly unlikely to have affected the referendum's outcome.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 14,008

    Slow news day at the Telegraph? What's that story on the right of the front page? Putin bombs are a threat to us all, says Williamson, who is Secretary of State for Defence and for stating the bleeding obvious.

    :lol: Well, yes, it is Easter Saturday, so slow news day.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 10,102

    Slow news day at the Telegraph? What's that story on the right of the front page? Putin bombs are a threat to us all, says Williamson, who is Secretary of State for Defence and for stating the bleeding obvious.

    Williamson should take his own advice and 'go away and shut up'.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 998
    Incidentally, if this really is the final brexit battle, then it's nice to know we're definitely leaving.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 21,371
    edited March 31
    Happy April. Doesn't feel like it. (Puts on fleece).
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,429
    I remember when Eddie Izzard was funny.....
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 10,102
    edited March 31
    kjohnw said:

    how about the £9 million spent on the remain pre-referendum leaflet by HMG ?. Remain far outspent leave. This is nothing other than an orchestrated attack by those wanting reverse the result because they lost. Had the result gone the other way there would have been no chance of a second referendum.

    Or the Treasury's official prediction of what would happen after a Leave vote.

    Which was by a curious coincidence exactly what George Osborne would have wanted it to say while being nothing at all like what actually happened.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 10,102

    I remember when Eddie Izzard was funny.....
    When did Eddie Izzrd stop being a comedian and start being Eddie Izzard full time ?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 5,488
    What about remain spending?

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,429
    Floater said:

    What about remain spending?

    There was more of it than Leave - and it delivered less votes.

    Leave is therefore clearly better at delivering value for money. The budget of Brexit Britain will be in safe hands.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,429

    I remember when Eddie Izzard was funny.....
    When did Eddie Izzrd stop being a comedian and start being Eddie Izzard full time ?
    When there were no longer comedy venues big enough to enclose his ego.....
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 5,488

    tlg86 said:

    Yawn.

    You may yawn mate but if the Commission does rule against Vote Leave then the outcome could be de-legitimised.
    ' The Liberal Democrats have been fined £18,000 for breaking spending rules in last year's EU referendum. '

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42411144

    Or perhaps we could look at general election irregularities, there's quite a few to chose from:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39289195

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38234883
    no, no ,no - if it's leave it's FAR more serious.

    What has happened in other cases?

    Expect the same this time around


  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 14,008
    Terrible headlines for Jezza this sunday.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 5,488

    Terrible headlines for Jezza this sunday.

    But the mob detect the hand of a sinister conspiracy that work in the shadows.

    Jeziah (pbh) is above all criticism
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 14,008
    Floater said:

    Terrible headlines for Jezza this sunday.

    But the mob detect the hand of a sinister conspiracy that work in the shadows.

    Jeziah (pbh) is above all criticism
    Indeed. I doubt any of this will change many people's minds. The Cult are besotted with the twinkly-eyed grandfather of re-nationalisation and the rest of us think he and his ilk are dire threat to the country.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 14,008
    As it is April Fool's day, Momentum have obliged:

    "Our movement must have the highest possible standards if we are to create the equal, free and just society we are working for: we must be less bigoted than the society we wish to replace."

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 17,798
    Sunil should sue for copyright infringement.

  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 2,631

    I remember when Eddie Izzard was funny.....
    When did Eddie Izzrd stop being a comedian and start being Eddie Izzard full time ?
    When he started being funny
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 1,909
    On topic, stop flogging the dead horse.

    Britain is leaving the EU on 29th March 2019. The public is bored to tears with Brexit process stories. This will change nothing.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 7,700
    OT a 1 minute 30 seconds video showing what happens to American TV news when one company owns lots of stations. (hat-tip: Reddit)
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 8,286
    Bowl
    at
    the
    chuffing
    stumps
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 13,658
    edited April 1

    I remember when Eddie Izzard was funny.....
    When did Eddie Izzrd stop being a comedian and start being Eddie Izzard full time ?
    When he started being funny
    The BBC News story says "The Labour official at the centre of an anti-Semitism row has resigned from the party's ruling committee.

    Christine Shawcroft said her membership of the NEC had "become a distraction for the party and an excuse for endless intrusive media harassment of myself, my family and friends".

    The row erupted after it emerged she had opposed the suspension of a council candidate accused of Holocaust denial.

    Ms Shawcroft will be replaced on the NEC by comedian Eddie Izzard."


    Unless you follow politics reasonably closely, that final line will sound utterly bizarre - indeed, when something similar was read out on the news bulletin, my wife (who doesn't follow politics particularly closely) thought it was hilarious. You can see her point. Eddie Izzard? WTF? Why?! Without the context of the NEC elections, it would barely make less sense to have her replaced by Tombleboo-ee, the Black Knight or Lassie.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 664
    RoyalBlue said:

    On topic, stop flogging the dead horse.

    Britain is leaving the EU on 29th March 2019. The public is bored to tears with Brexit process stories. This will change nothing.

    Perhaps. But what is the point of having the rules if parties and campaigns can simply ignore them with no prospect of the result being overturned?
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 13,658
    Anazina said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    On topic, stop flogging the dead horse.

    Britain is leaving the EU on 29th March 2019. The public is bored to tears with Brexit process stories. This will change nothing.

    Perhaps. But what is the point of having the rules if parties and campaigns can simply ignore them with no prospect of the result being overturned?
    So those that break them face criminal sanction. As has been repeatedly pointed out by ultra-Remainers, it was an advisory referendum so there is no result as such to overturn: there were no automatic political consequences that followed. They went to the highest possible Court to determine that.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 4,985

    You just know that Gina Miller is preparing a court case that turns on A50(1) i.e. "Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements." - and that if the referendum result was unsound, that brings into doubt whether the decision was taken in accordance with the UK's constitutional requirements.

    FWIW, the general public won't care. Remain spent more, I think (?) and had the bonus of several millions for the government's pre-campaign leaflet. Besides, if BeLeave was a bona fide organisation, then had their funding gone direct from donor to them, then they could have done exactly what they did anyway: the dispute seems to revolve on a very narrow point of law. That might or might not have implications for those involved but it's highly unlikely to have affected the referendum's outcome.

    Um, regardless of whether the vote was rigged, the "constitutional requirement" was that the UK head of Government (one T.May esquire) should serve a correctly-phrased Article 50 letter to the requisite person. The courts found that Parliament should authorise the Government first[1] and Parliament did that.

    It's the Iraq War all over again. People still insist the war was illegal, whereas in truth the correct votes were taken and orders enacted: in British terms it was legal and them's the only ones that count. For EUref the referendum was only advisory, it was Parliament and the Government made the final decision and that bit was constitutionally correct. They may have been misled by a fraudulent referendum, but that makes them stupid, not unconstitutional

    [1] a mistake IMHO: I still insist the PM had the authority to A50 without having to ask permission.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 4,985

    OT a 1 minute 30 seconds video showing what happens to American TV news when one company owns lots of stations. (hat-tip: Reddit)

    I just viewed that. It's simultaneously hysterical and frightening. Are there awards for "people who can sell out their integrity in an entertaining way"?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 21,371
    Another Cook failure, out for 14.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 957

    tlg86 said:

    Yawn.

    You may yawn mate but if the Commission does rule against Vote Leave then the outcome could be de-legitimised.
    We have already had the Lib Dems fined for overspending on the Remain side. Both are over relatively minor amounts of spending, given Remain spent £15m more.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 27,383
    Got to be Another April fools, right?...given jezza is tough on antisemitism, tough on the causes of antisemitism

    Jeremy Corbyn  is facing fresh questions over his pledge to stamp out anti-Semitism in Labour after an activist accused of repeatedly publishing anti-Semitic tropes was selected as one of the party’s candidates in next month’s council elections.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/03/31/anti-semitic-activist-selected-labour-candidate
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 27,383
    edited April 1

    OT a 1 minute 30 seconds video showing what happens to American TV news when one company owns lots of stations. (hat-tip: Reddit)

    Is this Sinclair tv? Last week tonight did an episode on them.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 27,383
    edited April 1
    AndyJS said:

    Another Cook failure, out for 14.

    I think that has to be it for cook. We need to move on and find somebody else in order to rebuild for the ball tamperings coming over next year.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,357
    Wakes up, says Happy Easter to wife, dares to check cricket score - phew.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,357

    AndyJS said:

    Another Cook failure, out for 14.

    I think that has to be it for cook. We need to move on and find somebody else in order to rebuild for the ball tamperings coming over next year.
    Sadly so, the last couple of years his average has been held up by a couple of big scores, but a Test opener needs to be able to regularly last a session at least. If he wasn’t Captain he’d probably have been dropped by now.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 27,383
    Simon Mann - BBC Test Match Special commentator

    You watch Vince, and if you took his whole innings and just edited out a couple of bad bits, you’d think he’s a remarkable player. It's odd the way that he's moved up the order, despite not really justifying it - they needed a number three for the Ashes, so they took a punt on moving him up there.

    James Vince = Mark Ramprakash
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 654
    edited April 1
    Firstly on topic.

    I can imagine people who feel strongly about remaining in the EU will feel even more cheated (whether rightly or wrongly) because of this, it could add to feelings of bitterness over Brexit.

    By itself it won't stop or overturn Brexit or I don't think change Brexit particularly. It could as a small part of a series of other things happening affect it but ultimately I think public opinion on the matter would need to change quite a bit to alter Brexit and this alone is probably not going to do that.

    I remember when Eddie Izzard was funny.....
    When did Eddie Izzrd stop being a comedian and start being Eddie Izzard full time ?
    When he started being funny
    The BBC News story says "The Labour official at the centre of an anti-Semitism row has resigned from the party's ruling committee.

    Christine Shawcroft said her membership of the NEC had "become a distraction for the party and an excuse for endless intrusive media harassment of myself, my family and friends".

    The row erupted after it emerged she had opposed the suspension of a council candidate accused of Holocaust denial.

    Ms Shawcroft will be replaced on the NEC by comedian Eddie Izzard."


    Unless you follow politics reasonably closely, that final line will sound utterly bizarre - indeed, when something similar was read out on the news bulletin, my wife (who doesn't follow politics particularly closely) thought it was hilarious. You can see her point. Eddie Izzard? WTF? Why?! Without the context of the NEC elections, it would barely make less sense to have her replaced by Tombleboo-ee, the Black Knight or Lassie.
    Haha, hadn't really thought about that, someone stepped down in Labour, who should fill the position?

    Eddie Izzard of course!

    FPT

    Didn't read that properly, 80% of Corbyn voters from 2016 vs Smith think he will be PM, my bad sorry Mike.

    Edit: Also thanks to whoever pointed it out.


  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 19,299

    As it is April Fool's day, Momentum have obliged:

    "Our movement must have the highest possible standards if we are to create the equal, free and just society we are working for: we must be less bigoted than the society we wish to replace."

    http s://twitter.com/PeoplesMomentum/status/980207558580465665

    More interesting, for me, is one of his conclusions:
    "But there is a wider point: we need to confront the crisis in political education. The party should set up an institution to directly address it. It would train up political education officers for Constituency Labour Parties across the country. Part of its mission would be a proper, thorough education in anti-Semitism – its history, its varied manifestations, the hurt it causes Jewish people. It would be part of a comprehensive education while in opposition and in government: in misogyny, homophobia, transphobia, Islamophobia, other forms of bigotry and racism. Momentum could play a critical role in this grassroots political education."

    The concept of would-be politicians - and even people connected with a party - having a 'political education' feels both funny and a little chilling. Especially having Momentum play a role in it...

    I an just imagine it being given by Ollie Plimsols and Legz Akimbo.

    "Now then, now then. Settle down everyone. Last week we tackled anti-Semitism, and how Jews are lovely people, especially if they're Labour members. There is nothing wrong with being Jewish.

    Tories, however, are EVIL!

    Remember, NAZI has four letters, and so does TORY, and this means that the Tory party are really Nazi's in disguise. But the only people worse than the evil, capitalist Tories are Labour moderates. The absolute scum ..."
  • TomsToms Posts: 1,498
    edited April 1
    RoyalBlue said:

    On topic, stop flogging the dead horse.

    Britain is leaving the EU on 29th March 2019. The public is bored to tears with Brexit process stories. This will change nothing.

    Yes. In view of the number of motorists I still see driving while talking on their mobile 'phones I don't suppose we have all that much respect for the law---if we can get away with it.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 654

    As it is April Fool's day, Momentum have obliged:

    "Our movement must have the highest possible standards if we are to create the equal, free and just society we are working for: we must be less bigoted than the society we wish to replace."

    http s://twitter.com/PeoplesMomentum/status/980207558580465665

    More interesting, for me, is one of his conclusions:
    "But there is a wider point: we need to confront the crisis in political education. The party should set up an institution to directly address it. It would train up political education officers for Constituency Labour Parties across the country. Part of its mission would be a proper, thorough education in anti-Semitism – its history, its varied manifestations, the hurt it causes Jewish people. It would be part of a comprehensive education while in opposition and in government: in misogyny, homophobia, transphobia, Islamophobia, other forms of bigotry and racism. Momentum could play a critical role in this grassroots political education."

    The concept of would-be politicians - and even people connected with a party - having a 'political education' feels both funny and a little chilling. Especially having Momentum play a role in it...

    I an just imagine it being given by Ollie Plimsols and Legz Akimbo.

    "Now then, now then. Settle down everyone. Last week we tackled anti-Semitism, and how Jews are lovely people, especially if they're Labour members. There is nothing wrong with being Jewish.

    Tories, however, are EVIL!

    Remember, NAZI has four letters, and so does TORY, and this means that the Tory party are really Nazi's in disguise. But the only people worse than the evil, capitalist Tories are Labour moderates. The absolute scum ..."
    TBH I'm pretty sure they already have people called something like political education officers, as I understand it is more to do with explaining the internal workings of the party and such. This isn't a role Corbyn or Momentum have brought in.

    I don't feel that adding to that role tackling racism etc. is such a terrible idea...

    Though Labour moderates and Tories are of course evil! ;)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,828
    Toms said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    On topic, stop flogging the dead horse.

    Britain is leaving the EU on 29th March 2019. The public is bored to tears with Brexit process stories. This will change nothing.

    Yes. In view of the number of motorists I still see driving while talking on their mobile 'phones I don't suppose we have all that much respect for the law---if we can get away with it.
    Isn’t the alleged overspend dwarfed by the difference in the amount that Remain spent compared to Leave (not counting HMG’s pamphlet)? Hard seeing that changing anything.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 19,299

    TBH I'm pretty sure they already have people called something like political education officers, as I understand it is more to do with explaining the internal workings of the party and such. This isn't a role Corbyn or Momentum have brought in.

    I don't feel that adding to that role tackling racism etc. is such a terrible idea...

    Though Labour moderates and Tories are of course evil! ;)

    It sounds as if such a role would be expanded, however.

    If you are going to give people training in things like anti-semitism, anti-racism, etc, then there are groups and organisations who are experts in doing so, and who know how to counter the old arguments. And it needs to be done directly, not via party intermediaries.

    We're talking about the Labour Party here, who have proved so utterly incompetent when it comes to antisemitism that they had Shawcroft chairing their disputes panel!
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 654

    TBH I'm pretty sure they already have people called something like political education officers, as I understand it is more to do with explaining the internal workings of the party and such. This isn't a role Corbyn or Momentum have brought in.

    I don't feel that adding to that role tackling racism etc. is such a terrible idea...

    Though Labour moderates and Tories are of course evil! ;)

    It sounds as if such a role would be expanded, however.

    If you are going to give people training in things like anti-semitism, anti-racism, etc, then there are groups and organisations who are experts in doing so, and who know how to counter the old arguments. And it needs to be done directly, not via party intermediaries.

    We're talking about the Labour Party here, who have proved so utterly incompetent when it comes to antisemitism that they had Shawcroft chairing their disputes panel!
    Unless I missed a bit it was just being expanded for the purposes of anti-racism, anti-sexism etc. which sounds okay to me.

    Well I'm guessing from reading it the idea is a general thing for Labour members rather than just those who have done something wrong. Considering the range of topics they wanted it to cover then asking every Labour member to go a specialist organisation to cover each of those is excessive and not going to work, I'm not going to do it, I'm not sure you would do it if you joined a political party, I'm not sure most people on PB would do it.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,357
    Surely all political parties need to significantly step up their vetting process and training of councillors and candidates?

    I know that’s a lot of people, that it’s often difficult to find people wanting to stand and that party resources are limited - but when set against the cost of the sort of headlines we’ve seen recently it should really be considered good value for money.

    There will undoubtedly be a load more stories to come out in the run up to the May locals, I hope everyone who’s standing is taking a very hard look at what they’ve been posting online.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 9,647
    edited April 1
    Return of the Commissars?

    In other news, amateur comedians being replaced by professionals is surely a welcome trend?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 26,073
    The most anti-UK US president in history ...
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 3,542
    A kinder, gentler politics indeed
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,429
    Sandpit said:

    Wakes up, says Happy Easter to wife, dares to check cricket score - phew.

    Ditto.. One just felt one might make up to parity at First innings and England 90-7 at the close
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 10,731
    RoyalBlue said:

    On topic, stop flogging the dead horse.

    Britain is leaving the EU on 29th March 2019. The public is bored to tears with Brexit process stories. This will change nothing.

    Actually we’re not. We’re entering a stage where we have to obey the rules, but have no say in making them. We actually leave a couple of years later.

    Oh, and Happy Easter tom those to whom it apllies and Compliments of the Season to those it doesn’t. Or something like that.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 26,073

    As it is April Fool's day, Momentum have obliged:

    "Our movement must have the highest possible standards if we are to create the equal, free and just society we are working for: we must be less bigoted than the society we wish to replace."

    http s://twitter.com/PeoplesMomentum/status/980207558580465665

    More interesting, for me, is one of his conclusions:
    "But there is a wider point: we need to confront the crisis in political education. The party should set up an institution to directly address it. It would train up political education officers for Constituency Labour Parties across the country. Part of its mission would be a proper, thorough education in anti-Semitism – its history, its varied manifestations, the hurt it causes Jewish people. It would be part of a comprehensive education while in opposition and in government: in misogyny, homophobia, transphobia, Islamophobia, other forms of bigotry and racism. Momentum could play a critical role in this grassroots political education."

    The concept of would-be politicians - and even people connected with a party - having a 'political education' feels both funny and a little chilling. Especially having Momentum play a role in it...

    I an just imagine it being given by Ollie Plimsols and Legz Akimbo.

    "Now then, now then. Settle down everyone. Last week we tackled anti-Semitism, and how Jews are lovely people, especially if they're Labour members. There is nothing wrong with being Jewish.

    Tories, however, are EVIL!

    Remember, NAZI has four letters, and so does TORY, and this means that the Tory party are really Nazi's in disguise. But the only people worse than the evil, capitalist Tories are Labour moderates. The absolute scum ..."

    An important point about anti-Semitism is that it is a very different kind of racism as it is not based on notions of ethnic inferiority, stupidity, being sub-human or savage. Instead, it is all about secrecy, conspiracy, threat, domination, power, lack of loyalty and wealth. If you see racism as only being about fighting discrimination against powerless people because of their skin colour, you may genuinely not fully understand what anti-Semitism is all about, so may be more inclined to ignore, overlook or dismiss it. That’s why training - if genuinely offered and received - can be helpful. However, the issue inside Labour is that the leadership of the far left is very aware of what anti-Semitism is and for entirely polittical reasons has failed utterly to do anything about it. I very much doubt that anything will change on that front. Old men, with strong views, do not tend to change their minds.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 10,731

    A kinder, gentler politics indeed

    Are Labour trying to lose?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 10,731
    Meanwhile, I found on the BBC Could non-alcoholic gin ever be as good as the real thing?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43582360
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 9,445

    If you are going to give people training in things like anti-semitism, anti-racism, etc, then there are groups and organisations who are experts in doing so, and who know how to counter the old arguments.

    Recent events suggest Labour needs no training whatsoever in anti-Semitism...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,357

    Sandpit said:

    Wakes up, says Happy Easter to wife, dares to check cricket score - phew.

    Ditto.. One just felt one might make up to parity at First innings and England 90-7 at the close
    Indeed. I’m not betting on this series because of the horrible time zone,but was definitely expecting to open my eyes this morning to find the Kiwis were clear favourites.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 41,833
    Good morning, everyone.

    What price Joshua for SPOTY? Although, he was red hot favourite last time and failed utterly. Which reminds me: is it a rule (or should it be one) that when there's no obvious winner, name recognition rather than recent achievement is the way to go?

    On-topic: any probe would have to find something damning in short order, then the EU would have to agree we could theoretically remain under the old circumstances (if the rebate is thrown out or opt-outs are discarded people would go ballistic), then another vote would need to be very rapidly held, and then the result would have to count.

    .... Whichever way that went, it would deepen divisions, I think.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 41,833
    King Cole, I don't get non-alcoholic gin, or wine. Or decaffeinated coffee.

    If you want wine without alcohol, surely you just want fruit juice?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 10,731

    King Cole, I don't get non-alcoholic gin, or wine. Or decaffeinated coffee.

    If you want wine without alcohol, surely you just want fruit juice?

    TBH, that’s what I thought. I just wonder if it’s the BBC’s April 1st story!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,357
    edited April 1

    Good morning, everyone.

    What price Joshua for SPOTY? Although, he was red hot favourite last time and failed utterly. Which reminds me: is it a rule (or should it be one) that when there's no obvious winner, name recognition rather than recent achievement is the way to go?
    .

    I was thinking about the SPOTY market the other day, in light of what happened last year. I think that the betting is driven by people who follow sport religiously, whereas the voters are those who watch TV on a Sunday evening just before Christmas and want to see what the year in sport looked like. The latter category of casual viewers - who actually decide the result - vastly outnumbers the diehard sports fans driving the Betfair market through the year.

    Therefore, name recognition is important, but at a much higher level. Who were the sportsmen and women that were on the front pages (for their achievement rather than a scandal obviously) rather than the back pages over the year, because they’re the ones more likely to do well. There will also be a bias towards those sports shown on terrestrial TV - and definitely away from those shown on PPV such as boxing. 90% of the general population won’t be aware of what Joshua did last night, and the TV news will barely cover it because there’s a curfew on any video from the event.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 41,833
    King Cole, well, there's non-alcoholic wine, so it sounds legitimate.

    Mr. Sandpit, interesting thoughts. Could also indicate F1 winners will have a hard time making headway now, thanks to the dumb shift to pay TV.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 3,542

    King Cole, I don't get non-alcoholic gin, or wine. Or decaffeinated coffee.

    If you want wine without alcohol, surely you just want fruit juice?

    TBH, that’s what I thought. I just wonder if it’s the BBC’s April 1st story!
    No, it sadly is a real thing. Non-alcoholic spirits have started appearing - rather expensive for flavoured water
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 654
    edited April 1

    A kinder, gentler politics indeed
    Momentum is supportive of her, although from looking into it this isn't so much a pro-Corbyn vs anti-Corbyn conflict, she actually resigned back in 2016 coup but from what I've seen from momentum supporting her, those against her are more likely anti-Corbyn.



    Edit:

    A kinder, gentler politics indeed

    Are Labour trying to lose?
    It has been the suspicion that some of them are.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 26,073
    A new month dawns with this exciting news ;-)
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 19,138
    On topic, this isn’t something that’s going to transform public opinion about the referendum vote.

    What will eventually do for Brexit (in all likelihood after the event) will be its advocates’ inability to persuade sceptics of its value. This would be a small brick in the wall separating the cultists and the non-believers.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,357
    edited April 1

    King Cole, well, there's non-alcoholic wine, so it sounds legitimate.

    Mr. Sandpit, interesting thoughts. Could also indicate F1 winners will have a hard time making headway now, thanks to the dumb shift to pay TV.

    Possibly, although Hamilton has struggled in recent years with the press in general. There’s a perception that he’s only winning because he has the best car, and there have been a few negative comments about his living in Monaco and not paying VAT on his plane last year - even though almost every touring sportsman bases himself abroad and drivers have all lived in Monaco for half a century.

    Ironically, if the season goes down to the wire vs Vettel or the RBs, that might work in his favour for SPOTY if he wins the title.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 27,383

    twitter.com/epinuk/status/980320102183788544?s=21

    April Fools are a bit poor this year....
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 3,542

    A kinder, gentler politics indeed
    Momentum is supportive of her, although from looking into it this isn't so much a pro-Corbyn vs anti-Corbyn conflict, she actually resigned back in 2016 coup but from what I've seen from momentum supporting her, those against her are more likely anti-Corbyn.

    Edit:

    A kinder, gentler politics indeed

    Are Labour trying to lose?
    It has been the suspicion that some of them are.
    My point was not really about Momentum - more about Corbyn's lack of action in these sorts of situations. You have Labour on Labour fighting at a very personal level and no action appears to have been taken from Party HQ to resolve it.

    It is all very well to say it is a local matter - but there comes a time when local parties need to be told to start acting in the interest of the party as a whole rather than indulging themselves in this way.

    I would say the same of any party that was allowing an MP to be targeted in such a way.

    But Corbyn made his claim to want a 'kinder, gentler' politics. But he does not seem willing or able to make his colleagues sign up to the same thing.

    The level of toxicity seems to be growing. And that isn't good for our democracy.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 9,445
    As April Fools go, that's quite a good one.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 41,833
    Mr. Sandpit, I think the money would raise fewer eyebrows, and agree it's not unusual, if he weren't such a flash fellow.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 654

    A kinder, gentler politics indeed
    Momentum is supportive of her, although from looking into it this isn't so much a pro-Corbyn vs anti-Corbyn conflict, she actually resigned back in 2016 coup but from what I've seen from momentum supporting her, those against her are more likely anti-Corbyn.

    Edit:

    A kinder, gentler politics indeed

    Are Labour trying to lose?
    It has been the suspicion that some of them are.
    My point was not really about Momentum - more about Corbyn's lack of action in these sorts of situations. You have Labour on Labour fighting at a very personal level and no action appears to have been taken from Party HQ to resolve it.

    It is all very well to say it is a local matter - but there comes a time when local parties need to be told to start acting in the interest of the party as a whole rather than indulging themselves in this way.

    I would say the same of any party that was allowing an MP to be targeted in such a way.

    But Corbyn made his claim to want a 'kinder, gentler' politics. But he does not seem willing or able to make his colleagues sign up to the same thing.

    The level of toxicity seems to be growing. And that isn't good for our democracy.
    Corbyn doesn't have the powers of a dictator within the Labour party, I realise the media may give that impression but he doesn't. I'm pretty sure he can't just kick them out besides which even if he did should he then just kick the Labour Councillors who have taken against her (from her account) out without investigation?

    Although these people seem to be working (somewhat) against momentum it doesn't mean he can (or should) kick them out without proof. We have processes within the party that apply whether you are pro Corbyn, anti Corbyn, momentum, progress or anyone else. It isn't a trial or a criminal court case but I do still believe in the basis of innocent until proven (to some level) guilty rather than just assume guilt in either everyone or those that suit my particular bias.

    The levels of toxicity seem to be rising all around, the Scottish referendum and Brexit referendum both showed that and neither can be blamed on Corbyn, neither quite frankly can this from the sounds of the story.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,149
    Joylon’s Tweet is misleading (or open to misinterpretation).

    I think Elliott means “unsafe” in the sense of “vulnerable to attack by opponents” (i.e. military use) not “unsafe” in the sense “on shaky ground” (I.e. legal usage e.g. unsafe conviction)

    As a lawyer I suspect Joylon has misunderstood Matt’s meaning
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,149

    You just know that Gina Miller is preparing a court case that turns on A50(1) i.e. "Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements." - and that if the referendum result was unsound, that brings into doubt whether the decision was taken in accordance with the UK's constitutional requirements.

    FWIW, the general public won't care. Remain spent more, I think (?) and had the bonus of several millions for the government's pre-campaign leaflet. Besides, if BeLeave was a bona fide organisation, then had their funding gone direct from donor to them, then they could have done exactly what they did anyway: the dispute seems to revolve on a very narrow point of law. That might or might not have implications for those involved but it's highly unlikely to have affected the referendum's outcome.

    Doesn’t Miller’s case fall on the fact the referendum was only advisory (as many Remainers have repeatedly stated) and we are leaving because the House of Commons voted to?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,429
    Charles said:

    You just know that Gina Miller is preparing a court case that turns on A50(1) i.e. "Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements." - and that if the referendum result was unsound, that brings into doubt whether the decision was taken in accordance with the UK's constitutional requirements.

    FWIW, the general public won't care. Remain spent more, I think (?) and had the bonus of several millions for the government's pre-campaign leaflet. Besides, if BeLeave was a bona fide organisation, then had their funding gone direct from donor to them, then they could have done exactly what they did anyway: the dispute seems to revolve on a very narrow point of law. That might or might not have implications for those involved but it's highly unlikely to have affected the referendum's outcome.

    Doesn’t Miller’s case fall on the fact the referendum was only advisory (as many Remainers have repeatedly stated) and we are leaving because the House of Commons voted to?
    Yup
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 3,542



    Corbyn doesn't have the powers of a dictator within the Labour party, I realise the media may give that impression but he doesn't. I'm pretty sure he can't just kick them out besides which even if he did should he then just kick the Labour Councillors who have taken against her (from her account) out without investigation?

    Although these people seem to be working (somewhat) against momentum it doesn't mean he can (or should) kick them out without proof. We have processes within the party that apply whether you are pro Corbyn, anti Corbyn, momentum, progress or anyone else. It isn't a trial or a criminal court case but I do still believe in the basis of innocent until proven (to some level) guilty rather than just assume guilt in either everyone or those that suit my particular bias.

    The levels of toxicity seem to be rising all around, the Scottish referendum and Brexit referendum both showed that and neither can be blamed on Corbyn, neither quite frankly can this from the sounds of the story.

    Corbyn has immense influence. He could call for an investigation. He could use the influence he has to bring people together to find a resolution.

    I didn't say he had to act in an autocratic way - he just has to act to bring about a resolution.

    A party leader sets the tone for the party as a whole.

    It is not just about what the leader does or says that matters - it is the times where they choose not to act or comment that matter as well.

    Failing to help an MP find a resolution under such circumstances is not something that can easily be dismissed.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 27,383
    edited April 1


    Corbyn doesn't have the powers of a dictator within the Labour party, I realise the media may give that impression but he doesn't. I'm pretty sure he can't just kick them out besides which even if he did should he then just kick the Labour Councillors who have taken against her (from her account) out without investigation?

    Although these people seem to be working (somewhat) against momentum it doesn't mean he can (or should) kick them out without proof. We have processes within the party that apply whether you are pro Corbyn, anti Corbyn, momentum, progress or anyone else. It isn't a trial or a criminal court case but I do still believe in the basis of innocent until proven (to some level) guilty rather than just assume guilt in either everyone or those that suit my particular bias.

    The levels of toxicity seem to be rising all around, the Scottish referendum and Brexit referendum both showed that and neither can be blamed on Corbyn, neither quite frankly can this from the sounds of the story.

    Bollocks....as leader of the party you can first speak to the individual in private, if they ignore you, you can publicly come out and say I have lost all confidence in X and criticism them explicitly. If they then choose to carry on and you have to take action through the appropriate party channels than so be it. However, most people when the leader has a word step down.

    According to the BBC this is what finally happened, Corbyn spoke to the NEC member and "encouraged" her to step down.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,429
    On topic, pretty off for those who constitue the Electoral Commission to be shooting their mouths off with negative comments about Brexit.

    Mugabe would have been proud.....
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,149

    OT a 1 minute 30 seconds video showing what happens to American TV news when one company owns lots of stations. (hat-tip: Reddit)

    A mixture of ownership by different companies (e.g. ABC and Fox both represented) and syndicated local news (which of course look to leverage off others work because that's exactly what syndication is)
  • JackWJackW Posts: 13,182
    edited April 1
    Happy April Fool's Day to the Labour Party.

    I'm minded to consider that Jezza and Co spend the other 364 days publicly practicing for the real thing.

    ..............................................................

    Far more importantly today the Royal Air Force celebrate their centenary. Our country owes a vast debt of gratitude to those whose gave their last measure of devotion in the service of the nation and to those who were, are and will be prepared to do likewise.

    Winston Churchill - "Finest Hour" - and "The Few"



    PER ARDUA AD ASTRA
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 27,383

    On topic, pretty off for those who constitue the Electoral Commission to be shooting their mouths off with negative comments about Brexit.

    Mugabe would have been proud.....

    I wonder if they have "Bollocks to Brexit" car stickers?
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 654
    edited April 1
    The accusations are largely related to her husband and his work outside of the Labour party before he started doing any work for her. Does this part even fall under Labours remit to investigate and take action on?

    Whilst their actions (from her account) are motivated by Labour internal disputes they seem to have largely taken place outside of Labour. What exactly can Labour do about someone getting fired as a care worker?

    Her dispute would probably be with Corbyn (partially) if he somehow blocked an investigation she asked for but I haven't seen any hint of that and from the sounds of the case I can understand why she might not have asked for one.

    Do you believe she has asked Corbyn to do something to help her that it is within his power to do but he has not done?

    If he has then fair enough but I have no evidence that is the case.

    Also the people who his influence might affect are already supportive of her
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,149
    edited April 1

    The most anti-UK US president in history ...

    General Washington was responsible for more British deaths than Donald Trump.

    (edit: for all pedants out there spot the deliberate mistake)
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,429

    On topic, pretty off for those who constitue the Electoral Commission to be shooting their mouths off with negative comments about Brexit.

    Mugabe would have been proud.....

    I wonder if they have "Bollocks to Brexit" car stickers?
    We do know they have a "Bollocks to Brexit" mindset. But we are expected to have confidence they will have an impartial take on expenditure decisions made by Leave. Okaaaaay......
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,149

    RoyalBlue said:

    On topic, stop flogging the dead horse.

    Britain is leaving the EU on 29th March 2019. The public is bored to tears with Brexit process stories. This will change nothing.

    Actually we’re not. We’re entering a stage where we have to obey the rules, but have no say in making them. We actually leave a couple of years later.

    Oh, and Happy Easter tom those to whom it apllies and Compliments of the Season to those it doesn’t. Or something like that.
    A Jewish colleague wished me a "Happy Last Supper" (in response to a Happy Passover greeting).

    I'm not sure if he was mocking me or not!
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 556

    On topic, this isn’t something that’s going to transform public opinion about the referendum vote.

    What will eventually do for Brexit (in all likelihood after the event) will be its advocates’ inability to persuade sceptics of its value. This would be a small brick in the wall separating the cultists and the non-believers.

    But one of the things which caused Brexit was the inability of the advocates of the EU to persuade sceptics of its value. I voted remain not for any enthusiasm for the EU but because I didn’t want to be on the same side as Farage and Galloway. In a rerun, I would probably change my vote.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 9,445

    The accusations are largely related to her husband and his work outside of the Labour party before he started doing any work for her. Does this part even fall under Labours remit to investigate and take action on?

    Whilst their actions (from her account) are motivated by Labour internal disputes they seem to have largely taken place outside of Labour. What exactly can Labour do about someone getting fired as a care worker?

    Her dispute would probably be with Corbyn (partially) if he somehow blocked an investigation she asked for but I haven't seen any hint of that and from the sounds of the case I can understand why she might not have asked for one.

    Do you believe she has asked Corbyn to do something to help her that it is within his power to do but he has not done?

    If he has then fair enough but I have no evidence that is the case.

    Also the people who his influence might affect are already supportive of her

    It would seem to me however that if somebody made false allegations against an individual with the sole intention of ending that individual's career, that would be a matter for the police. Wasting police time should cover it.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,357
    JackW said:

    Happy April Fool's Day to the Labour Party.

    I'm minded to consider that Jezza and Co spend the other 364 days publicly practicing for the real thing.

    ..............................................................

    Far more importantly today the Royal Air Force celebrate their centenary. Our country owes a vast debt of gratitude to those whose gave their last measure of devotion in the service of the nation and to those who were, are and will be prepared to do likewise.

    Winston Churchill - "Finest Hour" - and "The Few"

    ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKOuS0pmEEk

    PER ARDUA AD ASTRA

    Well said. There was also a programme on BBC last week featuring everything from WWI biplanes, through Spitfires and Vulcan bombers to Harriers and Typhoons. Well worth watching.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b09xptsg/raf-at-100-with-ewan-and-colin-mcgregor
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 9,445
    Charles said:

    The most anti-UK US president in history ...

    General Washington was responsible for more British deaths than Donald Trump.

    (edit: for all pedants out there spot the deliberate mistake)
    Washington wasn't technically a general until after he died?
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 556


    Corbyn doesn't have the powers of a dictator within the Labour party, I realise the media may give that impression but he doesn't. I'm pretty sure he can't just kick them out besides which even if he did should he then just kick the Labour Councillors who have taken against her (from her account) out without investigation?

    Although these people seem to be working (somewhat) against momentum it doesn't mean he can (or should) kick them out without proof. We have processes within the party that apply whether you are pro Corbyn, anti Corbyn, momentum, progress or anyone else. It isn't a trial or a criminal court case but I do still believe in the basis of innocent until proven (to some level) guilty rather than just assume guilt in either everyone or those that suit my particular bias.

    The levels of toxicity seem to be rising all around, the Scottish referendum and Brexit referendum both showed that and neither can be blamed on Corbyn, neither quite frankly can this from the sounds of the story.

    Bollocks....as leader of the party you can first speak to the individual in private, if they ignore you, you can publicly come out and say I have lost all confidence in X and criticism them explicitly. If they then choose to carry on and you have to take action through the appropriate party channels than so be it. However, most people when the leader has a word step down.

    According to the BBC this is what finally happened, Corbyn spoke to the NEC member and "encouraged" her to step down.
    Given his own record at ignoring a public declaration of no confidence, I’m not sure he could use that tactic.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,429
    edited April 1
    Charles said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    On topic, stop flogging the dead horse.

    Britain is leaving the EU on 29th March 2019. The public is bored to tears with Brexit process stories. This will change nothing.

    Actually we’re not. We’re entering a stage where we have to obey the rules, but have no say in making them. We actually leave a couple of years later.

    Oh, and Happy Easter tom those to whom it apllies and Compliments of the Season to those it doesn’t. Or something like that.
    A Jewish colleague wished me a "Happy Last Supper" (in response to a Happy Passover greeting).

    I'm not sure if he was mocking me or not!
    Perhaps you could take advice on some Corbynista websites, as to his hidden underlying threat to everything you hold dear meaning....?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 9,445
    Sandpit said:

    JackW said:

    Happy April Fool's Day to the Labour Party.

    I'm minded to consider that Jezza and Co spend the other 364 days publicly practicing for the real thing.

    ..............................................................

    Far more importantly today the Royal Air Force celebrate their centenary. Our country owes a vast debt of gratitude to those whose gave their last measure of devotion in the service of the nation and to those who were, are and will be prepared to do likewise.

    Winston Churchill - "Finest Hour" - and "The Few"

    ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKOuS0pmEEk

    PER ARDUA AD ASTRA

    Well said. There was also a programme on BBC last week featuring everything from WWI biplanes, through Spitfires and Vulcan bombers to Harriers and Typhoons. Well worth watching.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b09xptsg/raf-at-100-with-ewan-and-colin-mcgregor
    But far more importantly - the RFC and RAF gave us Biggles.
This discussion has been closed.