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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Based on last night Corbyn doesn’t look as thought he’s treati

SystemSystem Posts: 5,841
edited April 2 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Based on last night Corbyn doesn’t look as thought he’s treating LAB’s antisemitism crisis seriously

Latest from @GuidoFawkes Corbyn Tonight Met Far-Left Group Who Called For Destruction of Israel and Attacked Critics as "Non-Jews" https://t.co/7JBC6uQfgS via

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,828
    First :smiley:
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,626
    edited April 2
    Inadvisable even if they are not as bad as Guido reports, given they dismiss the seriousness of the current problem.

    They must know who leaked it, just from the angle of the shot.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 5,488
    UPDATE: Labour say Corbyn attended in a personal capacity not in his role as Labour leader. His own spokesman is dumping on him…

    Jezza under the bus
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 27,383
    Floater said:

    UPDATE: Labour say Corbyn attended in a personal capacity not in his role as Labour leader. His own spokesman is dumping on him…

    Jezza under the bus

    TBH it matters not in what capacity he went.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 27,669
    Floater said:

    UPDATE: Labour say Corbyn attended in a personal capacity not in his role as Labour leader. His own spokesman is dumping on him…

    Jezza under the bus

    He's really not very bright is he? After belatedly taking down his Facebook page he hangs out with a group who's past pronouncements could be described as 'problematic' at best....

    Since when did the LotO have a 'personal capacity' in public?
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 5,238
    In addition to the picture Guido has 22:48 minutes of audio from the meeting, so a planned bit of espionage.

    Two possibilities: 1. Corbyn genuinely loathes Israel and is not prepared to disguise the fact because he is entirely uncompromising. 2. Someone has told him there are votes in anti-Zionism. Both terrifying.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 5,488

    Floater said:

    UPDATE: Labour say Corbyn attended in a personal capacity not in his role as Labour leader. His own spokesman is dumping on him…

    Jezza under the bus

    TBH it matters not in what capacity he went.
    You know that, I know that

  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 13,657
    RobD said:

    First :smiley:

    Yeah, but it's zeroth if you're above the line. (Actually, I feel slightly guilty about that tweet, as it was developed from a comment that BigGNorthWales made on the last thread.)
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 654
    edited April 2
    Floater said:
    Yes, meeting Jewish people is as clear a sign of anti-semitism as you'll see...
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 6,793
    Meeting a Jewish group to celebrate Seder is "antisemitic", then. Ok.

    Bundling up nonsense like this with the genuinely problematic stuff like his comments about that mural is only going to trivialise the latter.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 5,488
    Danny565 said:

    Meeting a Jewish group to celebrate Seder is "antisemitic", then. Ok.

    Bundling up nonsense like this with the genuinely problematic stuff like his comments about that mural is only going to trivialise the latter.

    If Jezbollah's little visit isn't problematical why are Labour saying it was in his "personal capacity"?

  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 654
    Danny565 said:

    Meeting a Jewish group to celebrate Seder is "antisemitic", then. Ok.

    Bundling up nonsense like this with the genuinely problematic stuff like his comments about that mural is only going to trivialise the latter.

    I've mentioned at various points previously (although maybe not on here) that deliberately confusing anti-semitism for other things for political advantage actually harms efforts to combat anti-semitism.

    The logical conclusion is many don't really care.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,828

    RobD said:

    First :smiley:

    Yeah, but it's zeroth if you're above the line. (Actually, I feel slightly guilty about that tweet, as it was developed from a comment that BigGNorthWales made on the last thread.)
    Does that make OGH -1? :p
  • William_HWilliam_H Posts: 299
    Floater said:

    Danny565 said:

    Meeting a Jewish group to celebrate Seder is "antisemitic", then. Ok.

    Bundling up nonsense like this with the genuinely problematic stuff like his comments about that mural is only going to trivialise the latter.

    If Jezbollah's little visit isn't problematical why are Labour saying it was in his "personal capacity"?

    Because it was in his personal capacity?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 5,488
    William_H said:

    Floater said:

    Danny565 said:

    Meeting a Jewish group to celebrate Seder is "antisemitic", then. Ok.

    Bundling up nonsense like this with the genuinely problematic stuff like his comments about that mural is only going to trivialise the latter.

    If Jezbollah's little visit isn't problematical why are Labour saying it was in his "personal capacity"?

    Because it was in his personal capacity?
    Why did they feel the need to point that out?

    Which incidentally isn't what some of his outriders on the web are claiming - so hard to keep up.

    Congratulations Jezbollah for keeping this going for at least another day

    Or should we thank seamus?

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 9,445
    Nicholls out as well.

    This partnership is key for New Zealand. I would say that if it's broken before lunch, they have no chance of saving the Test. De Grandhomme and Southee will play shots and score runs, but I wouldn't choose them to bat time which is what's needed.

    England have had a very good morning. And with that, good night.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 6,793
    edited April 2
    PBTory logic:-

    Running an article about a Muslim candidate for mayor with images of the 7/7 bombings = fine

    Attending a Jewish group's seder dinner = antisemitic
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 27,383
    Well that deal didn’t last long...

    Israel’s prime minister has suspended a deal made with the UN refugee agency to resettle thousands of African asylum seekers facing prison or deportation, just hours after his office announced an agreement had been reached.

    “I’ve decided to suspend implementation of this accord and to rethink the terms of the accord,” Benjamin Netanyahu said in a late-night message on his Facebook page.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 21,570
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Corbyn must be trolling. It's the only explanation which fits the facts.

    PS I think I've guessed Mike's 280/1.

    Me too.
    Kanye West for President?
    280-1.

    Get on the Hick.

    (One interesting thing about Hick vs the Trump. Donald made his money catering to the rich: Trump Towers and Mar-el-Lago. The average man on the street has never bought a Trump product. Hickenlooper made his money out of beer. And pretty much everyone in Denver has found themselves at the Wynkoop at one point or another.)
    Rather unlikely to get the nomination, I think.
    This was a slightly curious story:
    https://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/25/politics/kasich-hickenlooper-2020-unity-ticket/index.html
    He's a self made man, the popular Governor of a swing state; he was Chair of the National Governors Association. In the old days, that was the perfect CV (sorry, Resume) for a run at the White House.

    Would he be popular in the "Rust Belt"? Well, I think the better question is: will any of Trump's policies have done anything to resurrect Ohio, Pennsylvania and the like?

    If not, then they may well be voting against Trump irrespective of who the Democratic candidate is. And if so, then Trump is getting re-elected in 2020.

    He's heading off to Iowa to stump for the Democratic nomination. I think he's 10x the candidate Clinton, or Warren is, and he's more than a decade younger than Trump, Biden or Sanders.

    Is he the presumptive favourite, or anything like that? No, obviously not. But - if he runs - he probably shouldn't be more than an 8-1 shot for the nomination, and that's assuming that Biden throws his hat into the ring.

    I think he's value at anything above about 50-1, and if he runs, I think that should be more like 15 or 20-1.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 5,238

    Danny565 said:

    Meeting a Jewish group to celebrate Seder is "antisemitic", then. Ok.

    Bundling up nonsense like this with the genuinely problematic stuff like his comments about that mural is only going to trivialise the latter.

    I've mentioned at various points previously (although maybe not on here) that deliberately confusing anti-semitism for other things for political advantage actually harms efforts to combat anti-semitism.

    The logical conclusion is many don't really care.
    Here's a useful test: name immediately 4 regimes anywhere in the world whose behaviour to a minority of their population outrages you as much as Israel's behaviour, and demonstrate that you give the four of them, collectively, as much airtime as Israel. If you can't you are an antisemite masquerading as an anti-Zionist.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,828
    Danny565 said:

    PBTory logic:-

    Running an article about a Muslim candidate for mayor with images of the 7/7 bombings = fine

    Attending a Jewish group's seder dinner = antisemitic

    Should he really be having dinner with people who are calling for the destruction of Israel?
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 654
    Danny565 said:

    PBTory logic:-

    Running an article about a Muslim candidate for mayor with images of the 7/7 bombings = fine

    Attending a Jewish group's seder dinner = antisemitic

    Yes but he went there in a personal capacity. Which as we know is secret code for anti-semitism stuff....
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 6,793
    edited April 2
    RobD said:


    Should he really be having dinner with people who are calling for the destruction of Israel?

    This is an entirely different issue. That's a political stance I don't agree. But conflating it with the antisemitism issue (as this thread title does, and as several PB posters have) is patently absurd, when it's a Jewish group (unless we're going along with Ishamel Z's idea that these are Jewish people who somehow hate themselves).

    Attending this dinner might arguably mean his foreign policy views are dangerous and wrong, and it might question whether he should be PM, but it doesn't show that he's "not treating the antisemitism crisis seriously", unless you're going to argue that this group is antisemitic.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 21,570
    If anyone wants to get a feel for John Hickenlooper, here's an interesting interview with him:

    https://www.inc.com/john-hickenlooper/how-he-got-laid-off-started-a-brewpub-and-got-elected-governor.html
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 5,238

    Danny565 said:

    PBTory logic:-

    Running an article about a Muslim candidate for mayor with images of the 7/7 bombings = fine

    Attending a Jewish group's seder dinner = antisemitic

    Yes but he went there in a personal capacity. Which as we know is secret code for anti-semitism stuff....
    Oh look, Paul Wilson MP Lab thinks Corbyn is tolerant of anti semitism, but you two don't. Who to believe? You know so little about any of this that you plainly didn't realize until half an hour ago that there are plenty of anti-Zionist Jews in the world, so I think I will go with him. And you just failed the 4 other countries test. Case closed.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 870
    Ishmael_Z said:

    In addition to the picture Guido has 22:48 minutes of audio from the meeting, so a planned bit of espionage.

    Two possibilities: 1. Corbyn genuinely loathes Israel and is not prepared to disguise the fact because he is entirely uncompromising. 2. Someone has told him there are votes in anti-Zionism. Both terrifying.

    Many of the far left seem to be under the impression that the rest of the country hates the Jews as much as they do. Honestly, guys, we really don't. If there's one minority the country as a whole isn't even slightly sniffy about, it's the Jews.
  • oldpoliticsoldpolitics Posts: 248
    Danny565 said:

    PBTory logic:-

    Running an article about a Muslim candidate for mayor with images of the 7/7 bombings = fine

    Attending a Jewish group's seder dinner = antisemitic

    I'm sorry but Corbyn's behaviour in this is pretty much the definition of "gaslighting".

    "Hmm, hmm, how can I stick my middle finger up at everyone who wants me to stop the antisemitism, while at the same time letting my cult defend me? Well, apparently Neturei Karta are busy tonight, so what I'll do is hang out with some people who say Israel is a sewer that needs to be disposed of, and that the antisemitism scandal has been made up by Tories and Jews in a conspiracy... but those people will identify as Jewish, so I'll get away with it. Brilliant!"

    This is sub "some of my best friends are black" stuff.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 7,386
    Danny565 said:

    RobD said:


    Should he really be having dinner with people who are calling for the destruction of Israel?

    This is an entirely different issue. That's a political stance I don't agree. But conflating it with the antisemitism issue (as this thread title does, and as several PB posters have) is patently absurd, when it's a Jewish group (unless we're going along with Ishamel Z's idea that these are Jewish people who somehow hate themselves).

    Attending this dinner might arguably mean his foreign policy views are dangerous and wrong, and it might question whether he should be PM, but it doesn't show that he's "not treating the antisemitism crisis seriously", unless you're going to argue that this group is antisemitic.
    I agree it's a stretch to say a Jewish group are themselves antisemitic (not a totally impossible stretch, but whatever). The problem here is surely that this group have called the current allegations "faux outrage" and "cynical manipulations" by Corbyn's political opponents - whereas Corbyn himself has belatedly stated that this isn't the case. The integrity of that statement, and his willingness to address the underlying issue, is surely called into severe question by his decision to attend this particular Seder.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 5,238
    Danny565 said:

    RobD said:


    Should he really be having dinner with people who are calling for the destruction of Israel?

    This is an entirely different issue. That's a political stance I don't agree. But conflating it with the antisemitism issue (as this thread title does, and as several PB posters have) is patently absurd, when it's a Jewish group (unless we're going along with Ishamel Z's idea that these are Jewish people who somehow hate themselves).

    Attending this dinner might arguably mean his foreign policy views are dangerous and wrong, and it might question whether he should be PM, but it doesn't show that he's "not treating the antisemitism crisis seriously", unless you're going to argue that this group is antisemitic.
    It's not my idea, you illiterate moron. I was just pointing out that your assumption that Jews cannot in principle be anti-Semitic was belied by a trope which has been around for about a century and has its own Wikipedia entry.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 7,386
    Cookie said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    In addition to the picture Guido has 22:48 minutes of audio from the meeting, so a planned bit of espionage.

    Two possibilities: 1. Corbyn genuinely loathes Israel and is not prepared to disguise the fact because he is entirely uncompromising. 2. Someone has told him there are votes in anti-Zionism. Both terrifying.

    Many of the far left seem to be under the impression that the rest of the country hates the Jews as much as they do. Honestly, guys, we really don't. If there's one minority the country as a whole isn't even slightly sniffy about, it's the Jews.
    Isn't that precisely why many on the far left don't take antisemitism seriously? They don't see the Jews as oppressed at all.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 870
    Floater said:

    William_H said:

    Floater said:

    Danny565 said:

    Meeting a Jewish group to celebrate Seder is "antisemitic", then. Ok.

    Bundling up nonsense like this with the genuinely problematic stuff like his comments about that mural is only going to trivialise the latter.

    If Jezbollah's little visit isn't problematical why are Labour saying it was in his "personal capacity"?

    Because it was in his personal capacity?
    Why did they feel the need to point that out?

    Which incidentally isn't what some of his outriders on the web are claiming - so hard to keep up.

    Congratulations Jezbollah for keeping this going for at least another day

    Or should we thank seamus?

    As far as I can see, the implicationis this:
    If he's visiting in his capacity as Leader of the Labour Party, it's the Labour Party which has anti-semitic links. If he's doing it in his persona; capacity, it's just Jeremy who has anti-semitic links.
    I'm not convinced this is the PR victory Jeremy's team think it is.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 654
    edited April 3
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Danny565 said:

    Meeting a Jewish group to celebrate Seder is "antisemitic", then. Ok.

    Bundling up nonsense like this with the genuinely problematic stuff like his comments about that mural is only going to trivialise the latter.

    I've mentioned at various points previously (although maybe not on here) that deliberately confusing anti-semitism for other things for political advantage actually harms efforts to combat anti-semitism.

    The logical conclusion is many don't really care.
    Here's a useful test: name immediately 4 regimes anywhere in the world whose behaviour to a minority of their population outrages you as much as Israel's behaviour, and demonstrate that you give the four of them, collectively, as much airtime as Israel. If you can't you are an antisemite masquerading as an anti-Zionist.
    You want to debate that North Korea aren't bad go right ahead.

    I'll start North Korea are bad because of the terrible conditions they keep their civilian population in.

    Now, you tell me why North Korea are good.

    Ohh wait what? you don't want to back that view so there will be no conversation on the subject...

    Okay, if you want to debate that Saudi Arabia aren't bad...

    I hope I have pretty much made my point?

    The reason we don't debate whether North Korea are good or are doing good things is because we agree on the answer. The same reason we don't debate whether killing working class children is a good idea but instead debate things like tuition fees. It isn't because we are all heartless monsters who think tuition fees policy is worse than ideas around killing working class children...

    Nice try with the smear though :)

    Edit: Also I'm pretty much always joining in conversations around the issue rather than starting them, as above if you can get PB to regularly bring up North Korea I have pretty negative opinions.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 870

    Cookie said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    In addition to the picture Guido has 22:48 minutes of audio from the meeting, so a planned bit of espionage.

    Two possibilities: 1. Corbyn genuinely loathes Israel and is not prepared to disguise the fact because he is entirely uncompromising. 2. Someone has told him there are votes in anti-Zionism. Both terrifying.

    Many of the far left seem to be under the impression that the rest of the country hates the Jews as much as they do. Honestly, guys, we really don't. If there's one minority the country as a whole isn't even slightly sniffy about, it's the Jews.
    Isn't that precisely why many on the far left don't take antisemitism seriously? They don't see the Jews as oppressed at all.
    ...and so don't see a problem with anti-semitismm, because racism is only bad when it's at the expense of a minority which is at the bottom of the pile. They don't hid their anti-Jewishness because they don't see it as a bad thing; and they associate with people with similar worldviews, and therefore assume that their position is common.

    I should emphasise that I'm not talking about all of the far left here. But there is clearly a substantial number within that bloc who don't see anything wrong with being anti-Jew.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 4,524
    edited April 3
    Betfair Party Leaders Exit Date market (quarterly version)

    Corbyn can now be backed at 2.02 to remain leader until July 2020

    ie a 50:50 shot that he lasts the next 27 months.

    Illiquid market but as of now £150 can be staked at 2.00 (ie bang on even money).

    Given the general perception on here that it's almost impossible to remove him those odds may seem a bit surprising - but who knows - anything can happen!
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 6,793
    edited April 3

    Danny565 said:

    RobD said:


    Should he really be having dinner with people who are calling for the destruction of Israel?

    This is an entirely different issue. That's a political stance I don't agree. But conflating it with the antisemitism issue (as this thread title does, and as several PB posters have) is patently absurd, when it's a Jewish group (unless we're going along with Ishamel Z's idea that these are Jewish people who somehow hate themselves).

    Attending this dinner might arguably mean his foreign policy views are dangerous and wrong, and it might question whether he should be PM, but it doesn't show that he's "not treating the antisemitism crisis seriously", unless you're going to argue that this group is antisemitic.
    I agree it's a stretch to say a Jewish group are themselves antisemitic (not a totally impossible stretch, but whatever). The problem here is surely that this group have called the current allegations "faux outrage" and "cynical manipulations" by Corbyn's political opponents - whereas Corbyn himself has belatedly stated that this isn't the case. The integrity of that statement, and his willingness to address the underlying issue, is surely called into severe question by his decision to attend this particular Seder.
    Of course, the other aspect is that I don't really understand the idea that having dinner with some people means you endorse every dot and comma of their political ideas. The point of this dinner was just to mark Passover, after all right? It wasn't, as far as I understand, being held in the name of "Jewdas"'s more wacky beliefs.

    If (say) Alistair Meeks were to go to a PB meet-up which Sean T also attended, would that mean it would thereafter be fair to assume they had endorsed eachother's political views, and had given eachother a "public show of support"?
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 7,386
    Danny565 said:

    Danny565 said:

    RobD said:


    Should he really be having dinner with people who are calling for the destruction of Israel?

    This is an entirely different issue. That's a political stance I don't agree. But conflating it with the antisemitism issue (as this thread title does, and as several PB posters have) is patently absurd, when it's a Jewish group (unless we're going along with Ishamel Z's idea that these are Jewish people who somehow hate themselves).

    Attending this dinner might arguably mean his foreign policy views are dangerous and wrong, and it might question whether he should be PM, but it doesn't show that he's "not treating the antisemitism crisis seriously", unless you're going to argue that this group is antisemitic.
    I agree it's a stretch to say a Jewish group are themselves antisemitic (not a totally impossible stretch, but whatever). The problem here is surely that this group have called the current allegations "faux outrage" and "cynical manipulations" by Corbyn's political opponents - whereas Corbyn himself has belatedly stated that this isn't the case. The integrity of that statement, and his willingness to address the underlying issue, is surely called into severe question by his decision to attend this particular Seder.
    Of course, the other aspect is that I don't really understand the idea that having dinner with some people means you endorse every dot and comma of their political ideas.

    If (say) Alistair Meeks were to go to a PB meet-up which Sean T also attended, would that mean it would thereafter be fair to assume they had endorsed eachother's political views?
    If you're determined not to see this as a deliberate choice by Corbyn then I can't really help you. The more charitable interpretation would be that he felt he ought to attend a Seder and these were the only ones who would have him :p
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 4,985
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Here's a useful test: name immediately 4 regimes anywhere in the world whose behaviour to a minority of their population outrages you as much as Israel's behaviour, and demonstrate that you give the four of them, collectively, as much airtime as Israel. If you can't you are an antisemite masquerading as an anti-Zionist.

    I'm trying to avoid this debate because it's become screamingly intense ("YOU ARE AN APPALLING PERSON! APPALLING! I SHALL LIE ON THE FLOOR AND SCREAM!"). But my sense of humour points out that *you* could not pass that test. Unless you think the UK is an oppressed minority of the EU, I can't think of any other four regimes you've given airtime to on PB.

    (Incidentally, "given airtime?". Are you under the impression people here are broadcasters? Or is this a newfangled coinage like "reach out" for "I posted on twitter"?)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,828
    Danny565 said:

    Danny565 said:

    RobD said:


    Should he really be having dinner with people who are calling for the destruction of Israel?

    This is an entirely different issue. That's a political stance I don't agree. But conflating it with the antisemitism issue (as this thread title does, and as several PB posters have) is patently absurd, when it's a Jewish group (unless we're going along with Ishamel Z's idea that these are Jewish people who somehow hate themselves).

    Attending this dinner might arguably mean his foreign policy views are dangerous and wrong, and it might question whether he should be PM, but it doesn't show that he's "not treating the antisemitism crisis seriously", unless you're going to argue that this group is antisemitic.
    I agree it's a stretch to say a Jewish group are themselves antisemitic (not a totally impossible stretch, but whatever). The problem here is surely that this group have called the current allegations "faux outrage" and "cynical manipulations" by Corbyn's political opponents - whereas Corbyn himself has belatedly stated that this isn't the case. The integrity of that statement, and his willingness to address the underlying issue, is surely called into severe question by his decision to attend this particular Seder.
    Of course, the other aspect is that I don't really understand the idea that having dinner with some people means you endorse every dot and comma of their political ideas. The point of this dinner was just to mark Passover, after all right? It wasn't, as far as I understand, being held in the name of "Jewdas"'s more wacky beliefs.

    If (say) Alistair Meeks were to go to a PB meet-up which Sean T also attended, would that mean it would thereafter be fair to assume they had endorsed eachother's political views, and had given eachother a "public show of support"?
    No, but you aren't leader of the opposition and supposedly PM-in-waiting.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 6,793
    edited April 3

    Danny565 said:

    Danny565 said:

    RobD said:


    Should he really be having dinner with people who are calling for the destruction of Israel?

    This is an entirely different issue. That's a political stance I don't agree. But conflating it with the antisemitism issue (as this thread title does, and as several PB posters have) is patently absurd, when it's a Jewish group (unless we're going along with Ishamel Z's idea that these are Jewish people who somehow hate themselves).

    Attending this dinner might arguably mean his foreign policy views are dangerous and wrong, and it might question whether he should be PM, but it doesn't show that he's "not treating the antisemitism crisis seriously", unless you're going to argue that this group is antisemitic.
    I agree it's a stretch to say a Jewish group are themselves antisemitic (not a totally impossible stretch, but whatever). The problem here is surely that this group have called the current allegations "faux outrage" and "cynical manipulations" by Corbyn's political opponents - whereas Corbyn himself has belatedly stated that this isn't the case. The integrity of that statement, and his willingness to address the underlying issue, is surely called into severe question by his decision to attend this particular Seder.
    Of course, the other aspect is that I don't really understand the idea that having dinner with some people means you endorse every dot and comma of their political ideas.

    If (say) Alistair Meeks were to go to a PB meet-up which Sean T also attended, would that mean it would thereafter be fair to assume they had endorsed eachother's political views?
    If you're determined not to see this as a deliberate choice by Corbyn then I can't really help you. The more charitable interpretation would be that he felt he ought to attend a Seder and these were the only ones who would have him :p
    I don't understand what you mean by "deliberate choice". It probably was a deliberate choice. But I don't see how it follows that him attending should be perceived as endorsement of all their politics, any more than the hypothetical example I gave of two PBers with different political views meeting.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 4,985
    Anyhoo, I have to bed. I shall leave you lot screaming at each other until you all get tired. Laters, alligators.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 7,386
    edited April 3
    Danny565 said:

    Danny565 said:

    Danny565 said:

    RobD said:


    Should he really be having dinner with people who are calling for the destruction of Israel?

    This is an entirely different issue. That's a political stance I don't agree. But conflating it with the antisemitism issue (as this thread title does, and as several PB posters have) is patently absurd, when it's a Jewish group (unless we're going along with Ishamel Z's idea that these are Jewish people who somehow hate themselves).

    Attending this dinner might arguably mean his foreign policy views are dangerous and wrong, and it might question whether he should be PM, but it doesn't show that he's "not treating the antisemitism crisis seriously", unless you're going to argue that this group is antisemitic.
    I agree it's a stretch to say a Jewish group are themselves antisemitic (not a totally impossible stretch, but whatever). The problem here is surely that this group have called the current allegations "faux outrage" and "cynical manipulations" by Corbyn's political opponents - whereas Corbyn himself has belatedly stated that this isn't the case. The integrity of that statement, and his willingness to address the underlying issue, is surely called into severe question by his decision to attend this particular Seder.
    Of course, the other aspect is that I don't really understand the idea that having dinner with some people means you endorse every dot and comma of their political ideas.

    If (say) Alistair Meeks were to go to a PB meet-up which Sean T also attended, would that mean it would thereafter be fair to assume they had endorsed eachother's political views?
    If you're determined not to see this as a deliberate choice by Corbyn then I can't really help you. The more charitable interpretation would be that he felt he ought to attend a Seder and these were the only ones who would have him :p
    I don't understand what you mean by "deliberate choice". It probably was a deliberate choice. But I don't see how it follows that him attending should be perceived as endorsement of all their politics, any more than the hypothetical example I gave of two PBers with different political views meeting.
    In the specific background circumstances, in his position, and on the occasion, I think it comes pretty close to a generalised endorsement of their stance (though of course that's deniable). Your mileage may vary.

    EDIT: and I'm off to bed too, so please don't take further non-response from me as a sign of rudeness!
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 6,793
    This from someone who's been quite vocal about tackling the actual antisemitism within Labour:

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 27,669
    edited April 3
    Meanwhile, this is what Jewdas say of Stephen Pollard:

    Enough is more than f*cking enough.

    The next steps from here are usually predictable. A non-Jew like Wes Streeting, Luke Akehurst or Stephen Pollard will appear on TV and claim to be the sole representative of the Jewish community


    https://jewdas.org/enough-is-enough/

    Also:

    In a story that has rocked north London, Jewish Chronicle editor Stephen Pollard is rumoured to have an uncircumcised penis.

    https://jewdas.org/stephen-pollard-uncircumcised/
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 654
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Danny565 said:

    PBTory logic:-

    Running an article about a Muslim candidate for mayor with images of the 7/7 bombings = fine

    Attending a Jewish group's seder dinner = antisemitic

    Yes but he went there in a personal capacity. Which as we know is secret code for anti-semitism stuff....
    Oh look, Paul Wilson MP Lab thinks Corbyn is tolerant of anti semitism, but you two don't. Who to believe? You know so little about any of this that you plainly didn't realize until half an hour ago that there are plenty of anti-Zionist Jews in the world, so I think I will go with him. And you just failed the 4 other countries test. Case closed.
    Simply pointing at people excitedly and saying look they said it as well isn't exactly the worlds greatest argument.

    Can you explain how I didn't know there were anti-Zionist Jews in the world and where exactly I proved this?

    I replied to your post above, as shocking as it may seem the post in which you weren't quoted wasn't directed at your post, what may also shock is that the post in which you demanded your 4 cases to prove I wasn't an anti semite which was wrote just a minute before mine wasn't even up whilst I was writing my reply.

    I realise that doesn't fit in with your conspiracy theories...
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 654
    edited April 3

    Danny565 said:

    RobD said:


    Should he really be having dinner with people who are calling for the destruction of Israel?

    This is an entirely different issue. That's a political stance I don't agree. But conflating it with the antisemitism issue (as this thread title does, and as several PB posters have) is patently absurd, when it's a Jewish group (unless we're going along with Ishamel Z's idea that these are Jewish people who somehow hate themselves).

    Attending this dinner might arguably mean his foreign policy views are dangerous and wrong, and it might question whether he should be PM, but it doesn't show that he's "not treating the antisemitism crisis seriously", unless you're going to argue that this group is antisemitic.
    I agree it's a stretch to say a Jewish group are themselves antisemitic (not a totally impossible stretch, but whatever). The problem here is surely that this group have called the current allegations "faux outrage" and "cynical manipulations" by Corbyn's political opponents - whereas Corbyn himself has belatedly stated that this isn't the case. The integrity of that statement, and his willingness to address the underlying issue, is surely called into severe question by his decision to attend this particular Seder.
    Actually Corbyn did no such thing.

    This event tonight and the reaction basically sum up what they are talking about when they say faux-outrage.

    This group hasn't stated (AFAIK) that anti-semitism does not exist in the Labour party, which would contradict Corbyn.

    Corbyn hasn't stated that the media haven't made more of the issue for political advantage.

    I suspect both think that both are true.

    There is no contradiction between saying anti-semitism exists in the labour party, that it is bad and that the media are making the most of the narrative for political advantage.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 17,798
    Toby Young apparently thinks that now is the time to resurrect the row over his appointment to the Office for Students.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 27,383

    Meanwhile, this is what Jewdas say of Stephen Pollard:

    Enough is more than f*cking enough.

    The next steps from here are usually predictable. A non-Jew like Wes Streeting, Luke Akehurst or Stephen Pollard will appear on TV and claim to be the sole representative of the Jewish community


    https://jewdas.org/enough-is-enough/

    Also:

    In a story that has rocked north London, Jewish Chronicle editor Stephen Pollard is rumoured to have an uncircumcised penis.

    https://jewdas.org/stephen-pollard-uncircumcised/
    Of all the Jewish groups he could have attended a dinner with he picks these charmers.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 27,669

    Danny565 said:

    RobD said:


    Should he really be having dinner with people who are calling for the destruction of Israel?

    This is an entirely different issue. That's a political stance I don't agree. But conflating it with the antisemitism issue (as this thread title does, and as several PB posters have) is patently absurd, when it's a Jewish group (unless we're going along with Ishamel Z's idea that these are Jewish people who somehow hate themselves).

    Attending this dinner might arguably mean his foreign policy views are dangerous and wrong, and it might question whether he should be PM, but it doesn't show that he's "not treating the antisemitism crisis seriously", unless you're going to argue that this group is antisemitic.
    I agree it's a stretch to say a Jewish group are themselves antisemitic (not a totally impossible stretch, but whatever). The problem here is surely that this group have called the current allegations "faux outrage" and "cynical manipulations" by Corbyn's political opponents - whereas Corbyn himself has belatedly stated that this isn't the case. The integrity of that statement, and his willingness to address the underlying issue, is surely called into severe question by his decision to attend this particular Seder.
    This group hasn't stated (AFAIK) that anti-semitism does not exist in the Labour party, which would contradict Corbyn.
    What has happened over the last week is anything but an attempt to address antisemitism. It is the work of cynical manipulations by people whose express loyalty is to the Conservative Party and the right wing of the Labour Party. It is a malicious ploy to remove the leader of the Opposition and put a stop to the possibility of a socialist government. The Board of Deputies, the (disgraced for corruption) Jewish Leadership Council and the (unelected, undemocratic) Jewish Labour Movement are playing a dangerous game with people’s lives.

    https://jewdas.org/enough-is-enough/
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 654

    Danny565 said:

    RobD said:


    Should he really be having dinner with people who are calling for the destruction of Israel?

    This is an entirely different issue. That's a political stance I don't agree. But conflating it with the antisemitism issue (as this thread title does, and as several PB posters have) is patently absurd, when it's a Jewish group (unless we're going along with Ishamel Z's idea that these are Jewish people who somehow hate themselves).

    Attending this dinner might arguably mean his foreign policy views are dangerous and wrong, and it might question whether he should be PM, but it doesn't show that he's "not treating the antisemitism crisis seriously", unless you're going to argue that this group is antisemitic.
    I agree it's a stretch to say a Jewish group are themselves antisemitic (not a totally impossible stretch, but whatever). The problem here is surely that this group have called the current allegations "faux outrage" and "cynical manipulations" by Corbyn's political opponents - whereas Corbyn himself has belatedly stated that this isn't the case. The integrity of that statement, and his willingness to address the underlying issue, is surely called into severe question by his decision to attend this particular Seder.
    This group hasn't stated (AFAIK) that anti-semitism does not exist in the Labour party, which would contradict Corbyn.
    What has happened over the last week is anything but an attempt to address antisemitism. It is the work of cynical manipulations by people whose express loyalty is to the Conservative Party and the right wing of the Labour Party. It is a malicious ploy to remove the leader of the Opposition and put a stop to the possibility of a socialist government. The Board of Deputies, the (disgraced for corruption) Jewish Leadership Council and the (unelected, undemocratic) Jewish Labour Movement are playing a dangerous game with people’s lives.

    https://jewdas.org/enough-is-enough/
    Yes I have seen that statement. The reaction to the event tonight sums up what they getting at, although I have never actually seen them state that anti semitism does not exist in the Labour party.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 6,793

    Danny565 said:

    RobD said:


    Should he really be having dinner with people who are calling for the destruction of Israel?

    This is an entirely different issue. That's a political stance I don't agree. But conflating it with the antisemitism issue (as this thread title does, and as several PB posters have) is patently absurd, when it's a Jewish group (unless we're going along with Ishamel Z's idea that these are Jewish people who somehow hate themselves).

    Attending this dinner might arguably mean his foreign policy views are dangerous and wrong, and it might question whether he should be PM, but it doesn't show that he's "not treating the antisemitism crisis seriously", unless you're going to argue that this group is antisemitic.
    I agree it's a stretch to say a Jewish group are themselves antisemitic (not a totally impossible stretch, but whatever). The problem here is surely that this group have called the current allegations "faux outrage" and "cynical manipulations" by Corbyn's political opponents - whereas Corbyn himself has belatedly stated that this isn't the case. The integrity of that statement, and his willingness to address the underlying issue, is surely called into severe question by his decision to attend this particular Seder.
    This group hasn't stated (AFAIK) that anti-semitism does not exist in the Labour party, which would contradict Corbyn.
    What has happened over the last week is anything but an attempt to address antisemitism. It is the work of cynical manipulations by people whose express loyalty is to the Conservative Party and the right wing of the Labour Party. It is a malicious ploy to remove the leader of the Opposition and put a stop to the possibility of a socialist government. The Board of Deputies, the (disgraced for corruption) Jewish Leadership Council and the (unelected, undemocratic) Jewish Labour Movement are playing a dangerous game with people’s lives.

    https://jewdas.org/enough-is-enough/
    You realise you have just linked to an article in which they list the times they've fought antisemitism, including antisemitism within Labour, such as when they called for Ken Livingstone's expulsion (giving the lie to the claim that they'd dismissed Labour antisemitism as non-existent)?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 27,669

    Danny565 said:

    RobD said:


    Should he really be having dinner with people who are calling for the destruction of Israel?

    This is an entirely different issue. That's a political stance I don't agree. But conflating it with the antisemitism issue (as this thread title does, and as several PB posters have) is patently absurd, when it's a Jewish group (unless we're going along with Ishamel Z's idea that these are Jewish people who somehow hate themselves).

    Attending this dinner might arguably mean his foreign policy views are dangerous and wrong, and it might question whether he should be PM, but it doesn't show that he's "not treating the antisemitism crisis seriously", unless you're going to argue that this group is antisemitic.
    I agree it's a stretch to say a Jewish group are themselves antisemitic (not a totally impossible stretch, but whatever). The problem here is surely that this group have called the current allegations "faux outrage" and "cynical manipulations" by Corbyn's political opponents - whereas Corbyn himself has belatedly stated that this isn't the case. The integrity of that statement, and his willingness to address the underlying issue, is surely called into severe question by his decision to attend this particular Seder.
    This group hasn't stated (AFAIK) that anti-semitism does not exist in the Labour party, which would contradict Corbyn.
    What has happened over the last week is anything but an attempt to address antisemitism. It is the work of cynical manipulations by people whose express loyalty is to the Conservative Party and the right wing of the Labour Party. It is a malicious ploy to remove the leader of the Opposition and put a stop to the possibility of a socialist government. The Board of Deputies, the (disgraced for corruption) Jewish Leadership Council and the (unelected, undemocratic) Jewish Labour Movement are playing a dangerous game with people’s lives.

    https://jewdas.org/enough-is-enough/
    Yes I have seen that statement. The reaction to the event tonight sums up what they getting at, although I have never actually seen them state that anti semitism does not exist in the Labour party.
    They do seem less temperate in their comments than their critics:

  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 654
    Actually I lied, I had only seen that part.

    Here is some more of their statement.

    _____________________________________
    Most of the remaining left-wing Jews either disappeared into nothingness or found each other in niche Trotskyist factions or single-issue campaigns. Groups like Jews for Justice for Palestinians, Free Speech on Israel and Jewish Voice for Labour are, whatever you think of them, the remnant of radical Jews who have been forced out of their own communities.

    In 2005, a small group made the decision that, this generation, we would not be forced out. Despite our deeply held beliefs in opposing capitalism and nationalism, we wanted to remain loyal to our own community. We wanted to stay members of synagogues and be part of our communities, full of all the complications and contradictions that would involve. We wanted to be able to persuade people of our opinions and, where we couldn’t, we would accept the joy of being in diverse spaces. Most of all, we wanted to be able to laugh at ourselves, each other and the Anglo-Jewish establishment. We wanted to have fun. And we tried.

    But now enough is enough.

    Over the last decade, because of our position straddling the left and the Jewish community, Jewdas has been the only radical faction that took antisemitism seriously. When we joined pro-Palestine marches (which we did, proudly), we brought with us leaflets explaining how to criticise Israel without being antisemitic. We called out offensive placards and engaged in constructive conversations with people who held them.

    When the entirety of the left engaged in circle-jerks about free speech after the Hyperkasher killings in Paris, we were the only group on the left to denounce those acts of terrorism as attacks on Jews.

    When neo-Nazis marched through Stamford Hill, we were the only group to go out and protest them. When the same group marched on Parliament, we managed to convince the Campaign Against Antisemitism (though not the Board of Deputies) to join us.

    We lost plenty of friends when we were the one of the only left factions to call for Ken Livingstone’s expulsion.

    Time and time and time again, we have denounced antisemitism, left and right. We have always stood up for our community.

    But now enough is enough.

    What has happened over the last week is anything but an attempt to address antisemitism. It is the work of cynical manipulations by people whose express loyalty is to the Conservative Party and the right wing of the Labour Party. It is a malicious ploy to remove the leader of the Opposition and put a stop to the possibility of a socialist government. The Board of Deputies, the (disgraced for corruption) Jewish Leadership Council and the (unelected, undemocratic) Jewish Labour Movement are playing a dangerous game with people’s lives.
    _____________________________________

    What a great statement, non-Jewish people calling this organisation out should be ashamed of themselves.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 27,669

    Actually I lied, I had only seen that part.

    Here is some more of their statement.

    _____________________________________
    Most of the remaining left-wing Jews either disappeared into nothingness or found each other in niche Trotskyist factions or single-issue campaigns. Groups like Jews for Justice for Palestinians, Free Speech on Israel and Jewish Voice for Labour are, whatever you think of them, the remnant of radical Jews who have been forced out of their own communities.

    But now enough is enough.

    Over the last decade, because of our position straddling the left and the Jewish community, Jewdas has been the only radical faction that took antisemitism seriously. When we joined pro-Palestine marches (which we did, proudly), we brought with us leaflets explaining how to criticise Israel without being antisemitic. We called out offensive placards and engaged in constructive conversations with people who held them.

    When the entirety of the left engaged in circle-jerks about free speech after the Hyperkasher killings in Paris, we were the only group on the left to denounce those acts of terrorism as attacks on Jews.

    When neo-Nazis marched through Stamford Hill, we were the only group to go out and protest them. When the same group marched on Parliament, we managed to convince the Campaign Against Antisemitism (though not the Board of Deputies) to join us.

    We lost plenty of friends when we were the one of the only left factions to call for Ken Livingstone’s expulsion.

    Time and time and time again, we have denounced antisemitism, left and right. We have always stood up for our community.

    But now enough is enough.

    What has happened over the last week is anything but an attempt to address antisemitism. It is the work of cynical manipulations by people whose express loyalty is to the Conservative Party and the right wing of the Labour Party. It is a malicious ploy to remove the leader of the Opposition and put a stop to the possibility of a socialist government. The Board of Deputies, the (disgraced for corruption) Jewish Leadership Council and the (unelected, undemocratic) Jewish Labour Movement are playing a dangerous game with people’s lives.
    _____________________________________

    What a great statement, non-Jewish people calling this organisation out should be ashamed of themselves.

    You missed a bit:

    This is not about dealing with antisemitism.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 27,383

    Actually I lied, I had only seen that part.

    Here is some more of their statement.

    _____________________________________
    Most of the remaining left-wing Jews either disappeared into nothingness or found each other in niche Trotskyist factions or single-issue campaigns. Groups like Jews for Justice for Palestinians, Free Speech on Israel and Jewish Voice for Labour are, whatever you think of them, the remnant of radical Jews who have been forced out of their own communities.

    But now enough is enough.

    Over the last decade, because of our position straddling the left and the Jewish community, Jewdas has been the only radical faction that took antisemitism seriously. When we joined pro-Palestine marches (which we did, proudly), we brought with us leaflets explaining how to criticise Israel without being antisemitic. We called out offensive placards and engaged in constructive conversations with people who held them.

    When the entirety of the left engaged in circle-jerks about free speech after the Hyperkasher killings in Paris, we were the only group on the left to denounce those acts of terrorism as attacks on Jews.

    When neo-Nazis marched through Stamford Hill, we were the only group to go out and protest them. When the same group marched on Parliament, we managed to convince the Campaign Against Antisemitism (though not the Board of Deputies) to join us.

    We lost plenty of friends when we were the one of the only left factions to call for Ken Livingstone’s expulsion.

    Time and time and time again, we have denounced antisemitism, left and right. We have always stood up for our community.

    But now enough is enough.

    What has happened over the last week is anything but an attempt to address antisemitism. It is the work of cynical manipulations by people whose express loyalty is to the Conservative Party and the right wing of the Labour Party. It is a malicious ploy to remove the leader of the Opposition and put a stop to the possibility of a socialist government. The Board of Deputies, the (disgraced for corruption) Jewish Leadership Council and the (unelected, undemocratic) Jewish Labour Movement are playing a dangerous game with people’s lives.
    _____________________________________

    What a great statement, non-Jewish people calling this organisation out should be ashamed of themselves.

    You missed a bit:

    This is not about dealing with antisemitism.
    Its a bit like pointing to CAGE and saying they make very good statements denouncing Islamophobia.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 27,669
    edited April 3

    Actually I lied, I had only seen that part.

    Here is some more of their statement.

    _____________________________________
    Most of the remaining left-wing Jews either disappeared into nothingness or found each other in niche Trotskyist factions or single-issue campaigns. Groups like Jews for Justice for Palestinians, Free Speech on Israel and Jewish Voice for Labour are, whatever you think of them, the remnant of radical Jews who have been forced out of their own communities.

    But now enough is enough.

    Over the last decade, because of our position straddling the left and the Jewish community, Jewdas has been the only radical faction that took antisemitism seriously. When we joined pro-Palestine marches (which we did, proudly), we brought with us leaflets explaining how to criticise Israel without being antisemitic. We called out offensive placards and engaged in constructive conversations with people who held them.

    When the entirety of the left engaged in circle-jerks about free speech after the Hyperkasher killings in Paris, we were the only group on the left to denounce those acts of terrorism as attacks on Jews.

    When neo-Nazis marched through Stamford Hill, we were the only group to go out and protest them. When the same group marched on Parliament, we managed to convince the Campaign Against Antisemitism (though not the Board of Deputies) to join us.

    We lost plenty of friends when we were the one of the only left factions to call for Ken Livingstone’s expulsion.

    Time and time and time again, we have denounced antisemitism, left and right. We have always stood up for our community.

    But now enough is enough.

    What has happened over the last week is anything but an attempt to address antisemitism. It is the work of cynical manipulations by people whose express loyalty is to the Conservative Party and the right wing of the Labour Party. It is a malicious ploy to remove the leader of the Opposition and put a stop to the possibility of a socialist government. The Board of Deputies, the (disgraced for corruption) Jewish Leadership Council and the (unelected, undemocratic) Jewish Labour Movement are playing a dangerous game with people’s lives.
    _____________________________________

    What a great statement, non-Jewish people calling this organisation out should be ashamed of themselves.

    You missed a bit:

    This is not about dealing with antisemitism.
    Its a bit like pointing to CAGE and saying they make very good statements denouncing Islamophobia.
    the engine behind this bout of faux-outrage is greased with hypocrisy and opportunism.....

    ......your goals have nothing to do with combatting antisemitism and everything to do with ousting the first successful socialist in a lifetime.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 27,383
    edited April 3
    BBC Main Story,

    Corbyn 'irresponsible' for attending left wing Jewish event

    Meanwhile, the chairman of the Campaign Against Anti-Semitism, Gideon Falter, said Mr Corbyn's claims to remedy anti-Semitism within the party and his appearance at this meeting made him a "duplicitous" man.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43624231
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 654
    edited April 3
    .
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 654

    You missed a bit:

    This is not about dealing with antisemitism.
    Its a bit like pointing to CAGE and saying they make very good statements denouncing Islamophobia.
    the engine behind this bout of faux-outrage is greased with hypocrisy and opportunism.....

    ......your goals have nothing to do with combatting antisemitism and everything to do with ousting the first successful socialist in a lifetime.
    So still no luck with finding the part where they actually claim anti-semitism doesn't exist in the Labour party?

    I assume this is the case trying to be built?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 27,669

    You missed a bit:

    This is not about dealing with antisemitism.
    Its a bit like pointing to CAGE and saying they make very good statements denouncing Islamophobia.
    the engine behind this bout of faux-outrage is greased with hypocrisy and opportunism.....

    ......your goals have nothing to do with combatting antisemitism and everything to do with ousting the first successful socialist in a lifetime.
    So still no luck with finding the part where they actually claim anti-semitism doesn't exist in the Labour party?

    I assume this is the case trying to be built?
    The charge is that they don't take claims of anti-semitism seriously - for which there is an abundance of evidence:

    a narrative that pretends that another Holocaust is round the corner in Britain
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 654

    You missed a bit:

    This is not about dealing with antisemitism.
    Its a bit like pointing to CAGE and saying they make very good statements denouncing Islamophobia.
    the engine behind this bout of faux-outrage is greased with hypocrisy and opportunism.....

    ......your goals have nothing to do with combatting antisemitism and everything to do with ousting the first successful socialist in a lifetime.
    So still no luck with finding the part where they actually claim anti-semitism doesn't exist in the Labour party?

    I assume this is the case trying to be built?
    The charge is that they don't take claims of anti-semitism seriously - for which there is an abundance of evidence:

    a narrative that pretends that another Holocaust is round the corner in Britain
    Maybe you didn't follow your link then

    https://jewdas.org/enough-is-enough/

    Not only do they take anti-semitism seriously but they actively fight it which is far more than many of those now trying to make political capital out of building a narrative of them as bad Jews can claim. I guess for some fighting anti-semitism comes second place to fighting Corbyn using anti-semitism.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 20,666

    Danny565 said:

    RobD said:


    Should he really be having dinner with people who are calling for the destruction of Israel?

    This is an entirely different issue. That's a political stance I don't agree. But conflating it with the antisemitism issue (as this thread title does, and as several PB posters have) is patently absurd, when it's a Jewish group (unless we're going along with Ishamel Z's idea that these are Jewish people who somehow hate themselves).

    Attending this dinner might arguably mean his foreign policy views are dangerous and wrong, and it might question whether he should be PM, but it doesn't show that he's "not treating the antisemitism crisis seriously", unless you're going to argue that this group is antisemitic.
    I agree it's a stretch to say a Jewish group are themselves antisemitic (not a totally impossible stretch, but whatever). The problem here is surely that this group have called the current allegations "faux outrage" and "cynical manipulations" by Corbyn's political opponents - whereas Corbyn himself has belatedly stated that this isn't the case. The integrity of that statement, and his willingness to address the underlying issue, is surely called into severe question by his decision to attend this particular Seder.
    The criticism of Corbyn has come from within Labour and the Jewish community. It really isn't a cynical ploy on the part of the Conservatives.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 654
    Never realised that Guido guy was a Labour member, many Sun and Daily Mail journalists as well...... they certainly hide their bias well!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 27,669

    You missed a bit:

    This is not about dealing with antisemitism.
    Its a bit like pointing to CAGE and saying they make very good statements denouncing Islamophobia.
    the engine behind this bout of faux-outrage is greased with hypocrisy and opportunism.....

    ......your goals have nothing to do with combatting antisemitism and everything to do with ousting the first successful socialist in a lifetime.
    So still no luck with finding the part where they actually claim anti-semitism doesn't exist in the Labour party?

    I assume this is the case trying to be built?
    The charge is that they don't take claims of anti-semitism seriously - for which there is an abundance of evidence:

    a narrative that pretends that another Holocaust is round the corner in Britain
    Maybe you didn't follow your link then

    https://jewdas.org/enough-is-enough/

    Not only do they take anti-semitism seriously but they actively fight it which is far more than many of those now trying to make political capital out of building a narrative of them as bad Jews can claim. I guess for some fighting anti-semitism comes second place to fighting Corbyn using anti-semitism.
    According to them.

    So you agree that Corbyn's critics claim another holocaust is around the corner in Britain? Strange argument when they complain that some of Corbyn's mates deny it happened in the first place?
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 654
    edited April 3

    So still no luck with finding the part where they actually claim anti-semitism doesn't exist in the Labour party?

    I assume this is the case trying to be built?
    The charge is that they don't take claims of anti-semitism seriously - for which there is an abundance of evidence:

    a narrative that pretends that another Holocaust is round the corner in Britain
    Maybe you didn't follow your link then

    https://jewdas.org/enough-is-enough/

    Not only do they take anti-semitism seriously but they actively fight it which is far more than many of those now trying to make political capital out of building a narrative of them as bad Jews can claim. I guess for some fighting anti-semitism comes second place to fighting Corbyn using anti-semitism.
    According to them.

    So you agree that Corbyn's critics claim another holocaust is around the corner in Britain? Strange argument when they complain that some of Corbyn's mates deny it happened in the first place?
    Well you might be able to prove it either way if you had been at these protests which these people you claim don't take anti-semitism seriously were at, I can only assume you take the issue far less seriously than them, which is worrying as according to some they don't take it very seriously to start with!

    As for your questions....... It is just sort of confusing I'm not sure where the so you agree comes from, maybe you could quote to me the specific part where I talk about Corbyn critics claiming a holocaust is around the corner... or something similar to that?

    Also I'm not sure what the strange relation of the second question is to the first, are you claiming that somebody could not say Corbyn critics are claiming a holocaust is around the corner and then criticise holocaust deniers? The first part may or may not be reasonable, depending how wide you define Corbyn critic and how vague a potential holocaust claim would need to be to qualify, can't really see much wrong with criticising holocaust deniers....

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 27,669
    Sean_F said:

    Danny565 said:

    RobD said:


    Should he really be having dinner with people who are calling for the destruction of Israel?

    This is an entirely different issue. That's a political stance I don't agree. But conflating it with the antisemitism issue (as this thread title does, and as several PB posters have) is patently absurd, when it's a Jewish group (unless we're going along with Ishamel Z's idea that these are Jewish people who somehow hate themselves).

    Attending this dinner might arguably mean his foreign policy views are dangerous and wrong, and it might question whether he should be PM, but it doesn't show that he's "not treating the antisemitism crisis seriously", unless you're going to argue that this group is antisemitic.
    I agree it's a stretch to say a Jewish group are themselves antisemitic (not a totally impossible stretch, but whatever). The problem here is surely that this group have called the current allegations "faux outrage" and "cynical manipulations" by Corbyn's political opponents - whereas Corbyn himself has belatedly stated that this isn't the case. The integrity of that statement, and his willingness to address the underlying issue, is surely called into severe question by his decision to attend this particular Seder.
    The criticism of Corbyn has come from within Labour and the Jewish community. It really isn't a cynical ploy on the part of the Conservatives.
    And to his dining companions it isn't about anti-semitism, its about:

    It is about the threat that the possibility of nationalisation, rent caps and redistribution of wealth poses to the people whose ‘philanthropy’ funds our community.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 27,669
    edited April 3

    So still no luck with finding the part where they actually claim anti-semitism doesn't exist in the Labour party?

    I assume this is the case trying to be built?
    The charge is that they don't take claims of anti-semitism seriously - for which there is an abundance of evidence:

    a narrative that pretends that another Holocaust is round the corner in Britain
    Maybe you didn't follow your link then

    https://jewdas.org/enough-is-enough/

    Not only do they take anti-semitism seriously but they actively fight it which is far more than many of those now trying to make political capital out of building a narrative of them as bad Jews can claim. I guess for some fighting anti-semitism comes second place to fighting Corbyn using anti-semitism.
    According to them.

    So you agree that Corbyn's critics claim another holocaust is around the corner in Britain? Strange argument when they complain that some of Corbyn's mates deny it happened in the first place?
    Well you might be able to prove it either way if you had been at these protests which these people you claim don't take anti-semitism seriously .
    Its about anti-semitism in the Labour party and the threat posed by:

    people of a certain age, class and political persuasion [and]...non-Jew(s) to a Corbyn premiership.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 43,033
    Sorry but Corbyn now meeting the "wrong" kind of Jews for Paul Staines ? What a crock of shite for an article I'm afraid to say
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 654
    edited April 3

    So still no luck with finding the part where they actually claim anti-semitism doesn't exist in the Labour party?

    I assume this is the case trying to be built?
    The charge is that they don't take claims of anti-semitism seriously - for which there is an abundance of evidence:

    a narrative that pretends that another Holocaust is round the corner in Britain
    Maybe you didn't follow your link then

    https://jewdas.org/enough-is-enough/

    Not only do they take anti-semitism seriously but they actively fight it which is far more than many of those now trying to make political capital out of building a narrative of them as bad Jews can claim. I guess for some fighting anti-semitism comes second place to fighting Corbyn using anti-semitism.
    According to them.

    So you agree that Corbyn's critics claim another holocaust is around the corner in Britain? Strange argument when they complain that some of Corbyn's mates deny it happened in the first place?
    Well you might be able to prove it either way if you had been at these protests which these people you claim don't take anti-semitism seriously .
    Its about anti-semitism in the Labour party and the threat posed by:

    people of a certain age, class and political persuasion [and]...non-Jew(s) to a Corbyn premiership.
    In regards to the first bit, they have also fought anti-semitism on the left.

    As for the second bit I really can't be bothered to spend a few paragraphs responding to guesses at variations of what you possibly mean and what that could have to do with anti-semitism considering you stated non-Jew(s)
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 27,669

    So still no luck with finding the part where they actually claim anti-semitism doesn't exist in the Labour party?

    I assume this is the case trying to be built?
    The charge is that they don't take claims of anti-semitism seriously - for which there is an abundance of evidence:

    a narrative that pretends that another Holocaust is round the corner in Britain
    Maybe you didn't follow your link then

    https://jewdas.org/enough-is-enough/

    Not only do they take anti-semitism seriously but they actively fight it which is far more than many of those now trying to make political capital out of building a narrative of them as bad Jews can claim. I guess for some fighting anti-semitism comes second place to fighting Corbyn using anti-semitism.
    According to them.

    So you agree that Corbyn's critics claim another holocaust is around the corner in Britain? Strange argument when they complain that some of Corbyn's mates deny it happened in the first place?
    Well you might be able to prove it either way if you had been at these protests which these people you claim don't take anti-semitism seriously .
    Its about anti-semitism in the Labour party and the threat posed by:

    people of a certain age, class and political persuasion [and]...non-Jew(s) to a Corbyn premiership.
    In regards to the first bit, they have also fought anti-semitism on the left.

    As for the second bit I really can't be bothered to spend a few paragraphs responding to guesses at variations of what you possibly mean and what that could have to do with anti-semitism considering you stated non-Jew(s)
    It’s a quote from the article - their words not mine!
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 654
    edited April 3

    The charge is that they don't take claims of anti-semitism seriously - for which there is an abundance of evidence:

    a narrative that pretends that another Holocaust is round the corner in Britain
    Maybe you didn't follow your link then

    https://jewdas.org/enough-is-enough/
    According to them.

    So you agree that Corbyn's critics claim another holocaust is around the corner in Britain? Strange argument when they complain that some of Corbyn's mates deny it happened in the first place?
    Well you might be able to prove it either way if you had been at these protests which these people you claim don't take anti-semitism seriously .
    Its about anti-semitism in the Labour party and the threat posed by:

    people of a certain age, class and political persuasion [and]...non-Jew(s) to a Corbyn premiership.
    In regards to the first bit, they have also fought anti-semitism on the left.

    As for the second bit I really can't be bothered to spend a few paragraphs responding to guesses at variations of what you possibly mean and what that could have to do with anti-semitism considering you stated non-Jew(s)
    It’s a quote from the article - their words not mine!
    Right, we are getting somewhere.

    Now you can explain how this line 'people of a certain age, class and political persuasion [and]...non-Jew(s) to a Corbyn premiership.' from their article.

    Proves the charge which is in your own words (look back in the quotes)

    _____________________________________
    The charge is that they don't take claims of anti-semitism seriously - for which there is an abundance of evidence:
    _____________________________________

    Because quite frankly it seems like a stretch....

    Or during our conversation did that charge get dropped and are you now making a different charge?

    Edit: I don't know if this is asking a lot but if you actually have a case to make could you present it rather than this weird riddle thing you seem to be doing where the answer is apparently clear without you saying what it is or getting around to presenting it.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 27,669
    Pulpstar said:

    Sorry but Corbyn now meeting the "wrong" kind of Jews for Paul Staines ? What a crock of shite for an article I'm afraid to say

    Not just “Paul Staines”....the BBC, Sky.....The Mirror:

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-fresh-controversy-after-12294140

    And all the papers you’d expect.....
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,357
    Great finish coming in the cricket. NZ aren’t going to make the runs, but have 15 overs to hold on for the draw with three wickets left.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 5,145
    Sandpit said:

    Great finish coming in the cricket. NZ aren’t going to make the runs, but have 15 overs to hold on for the draw with three wickets left.

    I'm not sure the light will allow all 15 ?
    I'm going to jinx NZ by saying I think they'll hold out for the draw.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 13,182
    Pulpstar said:

    Sorry but Corbyn now meeting the "wrong" kind of Jews for Paul Staines ? What a crock of shite for an article I'm afraid to say

    You are in error in two important ways :

    1. After many conciliatory statements Jezza chose to attend an event by a group who believes that antisemitism in the Labour is a smear campaign and is also deeply hostile to mainstream Judaism.

    2. The attendance keeps the story bubbling away for yet another news cycle.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 27,669
    @TheJezziah

    Mirror good enough for you?

    In a statement last week, the group accused the Jewish Board of Deputies, Jewish Leadership Council and Jewish Labour Movement of "playing a dangerous game with people's lives".

    Allegations linking Mr Corbyn to anti-Semitism were "the work of cynical manipulations by people whose express loyalty is to the Conservative Party and the right wing of the Labour Party ", it said.


    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-fresh-controversy-after-12294140
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 8,066
    Pulpstar said:

    Sorry but Corbyn now meeting the "wrong" kind of Jews for Paul Staines ? What a crock of shite for an article I'm afraid to say

    Disagree, I'm afraid. My first thought was the same, but this Jewdas group play the "no true Scotsman" card themselves.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,357
    edited April 3
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Great finish coming in the cricket. NZ aren’t going to make the runs, but have 15 overs to hold on for the draw with three wickets left.

    I'm not sure the light will allow all 15 ?
    I'm going to jinx NZ by saying I think they'll hold out for the draw.
    I think they will hold on now. If they do, that really counts as a loss for England.
    Light is always difficult to judge on TV, but they did finish early yesterday.

    Short answer - we need wickets!
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 1,730
    Anti-Semites used to be people who don't like Jews. Then it became people Jews don't like. It now seems to include Jews right wing websites don't like.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 654

    @TheJezziah

    Mirror good enough for you?

    In a statement last week, the group accused the Jewish Board of Deputies, Jewish Leadership Council and Jewish Labour Movement of "playing a dangerous game with people's lives".

    Allegations linking Mr Corbyn to anti-Semitism were "the work of cynical manipulations by people whose express loyalty is to the Conservative Party and the right wing of the Labour Party ", it said.


    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-fresh-controversy-after-12294140

    Right so your evidence for the charge of 'The charge is that they don't take claims of anti-semitism seriously' is their accusation of JBoD, JLC and JLM combined with part of their statement earlier. Glad we finally got there.

    No a group with years of fighting anti-semitism can't be charged by someone who didn't attend any of those protests against anti-semitism to not take fighting anti-semitism seriously because they disagreed with some other Jewish organisations.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,357

    @TheJezziah

    Mirror good enough for you?

    In a statement last week, the group accused the Jewish Board of Deputies, Jewish Leadership Council and Jewish Labour Movement of "playing a dangerous game with people's lives".

    Allegations linking Mr Corbyn to anti-Semitism were "the work of cynical manipulations by people whose express loyalty is to the Conservative Party and the right wing of the Labour Party ", it said.


    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-fresh-controversy-after-12294140

    Right so your evidence for the charge of 'The charge is that they don't take claims of anti-semitism seriously' is their accusation of JBoD, JLC and JLM combined with part of their statement earlier. Glad we finally got there.

    No a group with years of fighting anti-semitism can't be charged by someone who didn't attend any of those protests against anti-semitism to not take fighting anti-semitism seriously because they disagreed with some other Jewish organisations.
    The impression given is that Jeremy has gone out of his way to find the furthest from the mainstream Jewish organisation in the UK. All he’s succeeded in doing is to keep the story running.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 6,766
    edited April 3
    David Baddiel has also come out against Guido’s line - he recently wrote a great pieces in the Times about the issue of antisemitism:

    This kind of stuff (Guido story) simply feeds into the beliefs many Corbyn supporters have that this about ‘attacking’ Corbyn, it actually makes it harder to deal with antisemitism.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 27,669

    @TheJezziah

    Mirror good enough for you?

    In a statement last week, the group accused the Jewish Board of Deputies, Jewish Leadership Council and Jewish Labour Movement of "playing a dangerous game with people's lives".

    Allegations linking Mr Corbyn to anti-Semitism were "the work of cynical manipulations by people whose express loyalty is to the Conservative Party and the right wing of the Labour Party ", it said.


    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-fresh-controversy-after-12294140

    Right so your evidence for the charge of 'The charge is that they don't take claims of anti-semitism seriously' is their accusation of JBoD, JLC and JLM combined with part of their statement earlier. Glad we finally got there.

    No a group with years of fighting anti-semitism can't be charged by someone who didn't attend any of those protests against anti-semitism to not take fighting anti-semitism seriously because they disagreed with some other Jewish organisations.
    No true Jew....
  • MetatronMetatron Posts: 122
    Is it not about time someone defined `anti-Semitism?`
    The handful of times I have walked past an Anti-Israel rally I felt the rally`s stank of Anti-Semitism.To read Jewdas claim that they proudly walked on Pro- Palestinian rallies suggests to me that they have built a myopic anti-capitalist bubble around themselves.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 27,669
    Sandpit said:

    @TheJezziah

    Mirror good enough for you?

    In a statement last week, the group accused the Jewish Board of Deputies, Jewish Leadership Council and Jewish Labour Movement of "playing a dangerous game with people's lives".

    Allegations linking Mr Corbyn to anti-Semitism were "the work of cynical manipulations by people whose express loyalty is to the Conservative Party and the right wing of the Labour Party ", it said.


    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-fresh-controversy-after-12294140

    Right so your evidence for the charge of 'The charge is that they don't take claims of anti-semitism seriously' is their accusation of JBoD, JLC and JLM combined with part of their statement earlier. Glad we finally got there.

    No a group with years of fighting anti-semitism can't be charged by someone who didn't attend any of those protests against anti-semitism to not take fighting anti-semitism seriously because they disagreed with some other Jewish organisations.
    The impression given is that Jeremy has gone out of his way to find the furthest from the mainstream Jewish organisation in the UK. All he’s succeeded in doing is to keep the story running.
    I suspect he thought 1) they’re in the constituency, 2) they’re radical left (very much comfort zone) 3) they’re Jewish - so what could possibly go wrong. He’s just not very bright....
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 19,299

    David Baddiel has also come out against Guido’s line - he recently wrote a great pieces in the Times about the issue of antisemitism:


    This kind of stuff simply feeds into the beliefs many Corbyn supporters have that this about ‘attacking’ Corbyn, it actually makes it harder to deal with antisemitism.

    No, it really doesn't. Dealing with antisemitism is easy: if someone expresses antisemitic views, suspend them or throw them out, depending on the level of the offence.

    It's quite simple. You have a fair process in place, and apply that process fairly. You do not prejudge or ignore.

    That's what Labour's got wrong under Corbyn, and that's why they're getting pasted.

    (BTW, the same goes for other things such as Islamophobia or general racism as well, and applies to all parties and, for that matter, organisations).
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 19,436
    England into Fergie time but its not going to happen. Stout defence by NZ.

    Its been a pretty disappointing winter.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 6,766

    David Baddiel has also come out against Guido’s line - he recently wrote a great pieces in the Times about the issue of antisemitism:


    This kind of stuff simply feeds into the beliefs many Corbyn supporters have that this about ‘attacking’ Corbyn, it actually makes it harder to deal with antisemitism.

    No, it really doesn't. Dealing with antisemitism is easy: if someone expresses antisemitic views, suspend them or throw them out, depending on the level of the offence.

    It's quite simple. You have a fair process in place, and apply that process fairly. You do not prejudge or ignore.

    That's what Labour's got wrong under Corbyn, and that's why they're getting pasted.

    (BTW, the same goes for other things such as Islamophobia or general racism as well, and applies to all parties and, for that matter, organisations).
    In the case of Labour it does make it harder to deal with the issue at hand. The more Corbyn supporters think that this about an attack on Corbyn, the less likely the issue is going to be taken seriously and dealt with. In order for Labour to kick their antisemities out, the issue needs to be taken seriously in the first place.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,357

    Sandpit said:

    @TheJezziah

    Mirror good enough for you?

    In a statement last week, the group accused the Jewish Board of Deputies, Jewish Leadership Council and Jewish Labour Movement of "playing a dangerous game with people's lives".

    Allegations linking Mr Corbyn to anti-Semitism were "the work of cynical manipulations by people whose express loyalty is to the Conservative Party and the right wing of the Labour Party ", it said.


    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-fresh-controversy-after-12294140

    Right so your evidence for the charge of 'The charge is that they don't take claims of anti-semitism seriously' is their accusation of JBoD, JLC and JLM combined with part of their statement earlier. Glad we finally got there.

    No a group with years of fighting anti-semitism can't be charged by someone who didn't attend any of those protests against anti-semitism to not take fighting anti-semitism seriously because they disagreed with some other Jewish organisations.
    The impression given is that Jeremy has gone out of his way to find the furthest from the mainstream Jewish organisation in the UK. All he’s succeeded in doing is to keep the story running.
    I suspect he thought 1) they’re in the constituency, 2) they’re radical left (very much comfort zone) 3) they’re Jewish - so what could possibly go wrong. He’s just not very bright....
    Yep, and all those around him advising have known him for years and seem happy to let him do his own thing. He needs to get an Alastair Campbell, and quickly.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 19,299

    David Baddiel has also come out against Guido’s line - he recently wrote a great pieces in the Times about the issue of antisemitism:


    This kind of stuff simply feeds into the beliefs many Corbyn supporters have that this about ‘attacking’ Corbyn, it actually makes it harder to deal with antisemitism.

    No, it really doesn't. Dealing with antisemitism is easy: if someone expresses antisemitic views, suspend them or throw them out, depending on the level of the offence.

    It's quite simple. You have a fair process in place, and apply that process fairly. You do not prejudge or ignore.

    That's what Labour's got wrong under Corbyn, and that's why they're getting pasted.

    (BTW, the same goes for other things such as Islamophobia or general racism as well, and applies to all parties and, for that matter, organisations).
    In the case of Labour it does make it harder to deal with the issue at hand. The more Corbyn supporters think that this about an attack on Corbyn, the less likely the issue is going to be taken seriously and dealt with. In order for Labour to kick their antisemities out, the issue needs to be taken seriously in the first place.
    But that's exactly the point! It wasn't being taken seriously.

    Or worse, it was being judged through a political prism: if a Conservative or moderate Labour figure said it, it would be wrong. If a hard leftist says it, it's obviously fine and just a plot by other members against him.

    Corbyn is being attacked because he, and his followers in the party, are doing wrong.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 654

    David Baddiel has also come out against Guido’s line - he recently wrote a great pieces in the Times about the issue of antisemitism:


    This kind of stuff simply feeds into the beliefs many Corbyn supporters have that this about ‘attacking’ Corbyn, it actually makes it harder to deal with antisemitism.

    The mistake you might be making is thinking many of the people involved actually care about that deeply about anti-semitism.

    David Baddiel has also come out against Guido’s line - he recently wrote a great pieces in the Times about the issue of antisemitism:


    This kind of stuff simply feeds into the beliefs many Corbyn supporters have that this about ‘attacking’ Corbyn, it actually makes it harder to deal with antisemitism.

    No, it really doesn't. Dealing with antisemitism is easy: if someone expresses antisemitic views, suspend them or throw them out, depending on the level of the offence.

    It's quite simple. You have a fair process in place, and apply that process fairly. You do not prejudge or ignore.

    That's what Labour's got wrong under Corbyn, and that's why they're getting pasted.
    In fairness the only thing that has changed about our process it has got tougher and we weren't getting pasted about it before.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,357
    DavidL said:

    England into Fergie time but its not going to happen. Stout defence by NZ.

    Its been a pretty disappointing winter.

    Yes, great effort by the Kiwis to bat out the day, especially Sodhi at 8 with an unbeaten 56 in well over three hours.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 654
    Sandpit said:

    @TheJezziah

    Mirror good enough for you?

    In a statement last week, the group accused the Jewish Board of Deputies, Jewish Leadership Council and Jewish Labour Movement of "playing a dangerous game with people's lives".

    Allegations linking Mr Corbyn to anti-Semitism were "the work of cynical manipulations by people whose express loyalty is to the Conservative Party and the right wing of the Labour Party ", it said.


    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-fresh-controversy-after-12294140

    Right so your evidence for the charge of 'The charge is that they don't take claims of anti-semitism seriously' is their accusation of JBoD, JLC and JLM combined with part of their statement earlier. Glad we finally got there.

    No a group with years of fighting anti-semitism can't be charged by someone who didn't attend any of those protests against anti-semitism to not take fighting anti-semitism seriously because they disagreed with some other Jewish organisations.
    The impression given is that Jeremy has gone out of his way to find the furthest from the mainstream Jewish organisation in the UK. All he’s succeeded in doing is to keep the story running.
    There seems to be kick back at this point anyway, once you start having non Jewish people calling out Jewish people here, even more than just Dan Hodges telling them their anti-semites then people aren't really going to just let it go.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 6,766
    edited April 3

    David Baddiel has also come out against Guido’s line - he recently wrote a great pieces in the Times about the issue of antisemitism:


    This kind of stuff simply feeds into the beliefs many Corbyn supporters have that this about ‘attacking’ Corbyn, it actually makes it harder to deal with antisemitism.

    No, it really doesn't. Dealing with antisemitism is easy: if someone expresses antisemitic views, suspend them or throw them out, depending on the level of the offence.

    It's quite simple. You have a fair process in place, and apply that process fairly. You do not prejudge or ignore.

    That's what Labour's got wrong under Corbyn, and that's why they're getting pasted.

    (BTW, the same goes for other things such as Islamophobia or general racism as well, and applies to all parties and, for that matter, organisations).
    In the case of Labour it does make it harder to deal with the issue at hand. The more Corbyn supporters think that this about an attack on Corbyn, the less likely the issue is going to be taken seriously and dealt with. In order for Labour to kick their antisemities out, the issue needs to be taken seriously in the first place.
    But that's exactly the point! It wasn't being taken seriously.

    Or worse, it was being judged through a political prism: if a Conservative or moderate Labour figure said it, it would be wrong. If a hard leftist says it, it's obviously fine and just a plot by other members against him.

    Corbyn is being attacked because he, and his followers in the party, are doing wrong.
    I agree Corbyn is being attacked because he’s handled this issue terribly. My point is, is that many of his followers do not agree with this. They, to some extent or another believe that this is an unfair or politically motivated attack on him. The Guido Story for them will feed into this way of thinking, and they’ll continue to not take the issue seriously.

    I would have thought me saying that ‘it needs to be taken as seriously’ would imply that I don’t think the issue is being taken seriously within Labour under Corbyn.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 19,436
    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    England into Fergie time but its not going to happen. Stout defence by NZ.

    Its been a pretty disappointing winter.

    Yes, great effort by the Kiwis to bat out the day, especially Sodhi at 8 with an unbeaten 56 in well over three hours.
    Sadly, we don't have the attack to take 20 wickets in a test match outside English conditions.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 8,459
    edited April 3
    I'm not a fan of Corbyn but there's a technique that Obama also had where you make your opponents jump the shark, and it works very well in combination with social media. If you've got Guido and the other critics making a ridiculous-sounding point - in this case apparently that he's anti-semitic for meeting with Jews who say he's not anti-semitic - you can make people who haven't been paying much attention so far assume the rest of the criticism must be ridiculous, even if it's not.

    I take the point that it prolongs the unfavourable media coverage, and in the TV age that would have been an unmitigated bad thing, but social media has slightly different rules, because you can keep an attack line going even after the broadcast media have moved on.
This discussion has been closed.