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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » YouGov finds that significant numbers of voters now believe th

SystemSystem Posts: 5,841
edited April 3 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » YouGov finds that significant numbers of voters now believe there was cheating at the Brexit referendum

This is the first time, as far as I can recall, that this line of questioning has been put and the results have to be looked at in the context of all the news that we have had in the past few weeks.

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • ElliotElliot Posts: 957
    The idea that £600k changed the result of the referendum when one side spent £16m more is laughable.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 64,263
    Not going to help heal the nation and bring it together is it?
  • tysontyson Posts: 4,345
    This story has about as much legs as Stormy Daniels, but is like a million times more boring....
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 64,263
    edited April 3
    I didn't rejoining was going to be an option, but I think is very possible in the near future, even with all the unfavourable aspects of rejoining.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,103
    The only time it becomes a problem is when there is a real move away from leaving and there is no evidence of that at present and in my opinion it is all too late
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 17,798
    The 2016 referendum cannot be the final word when so many people don’t accept that it was won on legitimate arguments in a fair campaign.
  • tysontyson Posts: 4,345
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Not going to help heal the nation and bring it together is it?

    Mate, wasn't it your hero (Mr Cameron) who decided to rip open a few arteries for some vanity project to manage his own party?
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 7,145
    Its all about that word, "cheating".

    I suspect many Remain voters are thinking about "lies" about Turkey, £350m, etc... not about spending limits
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,103
    edited April 3
    williamglenn said:

    The 2016 referendum cannot be the final word when so many people don’t accept that it was won on legitimate arguments in a fair campaign.

    Evidence in the change in mood required
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 1,758
    After the colonoscopy story on the last thread:

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 64,263
    tyson said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Not going to help heal the nation and bring it together is it?

    Mate, wasn't it your hero (Mr Cameron) who decided to rip open a few arteries for some vanity project to manage his own party?
    The referendum train was coming, it just happened on his watch.

    If you thought things are divided now, just imagine the aggro if a party that won a majority on less than 40% of the vote that had a manifesto commitment to leave the EU.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,836
    I would put it down to the much discredited bus and the even more discredited Johnson.
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,124
    Depends on what you consider cheating. The idea that both campaigns played to the spirit of regulation on money is patent cack but you barely get a major public political vote these days without an allegation of some over spend especially from those on the losing side.

    There are maybe other issues regarding foreign influence and so on but overspend? Not sure about that.

  • FloaterFloater Posts: 5,488
    williamglenn said:

    The 2016 referendum cannot be the final word when so many people don’t accept that it was won on legitimate arguments in a fair campaign.

    Yet most people just want to get on with leaving.

    Next .... no doubt there will be a next.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,429
    Polling that tells us Remainers are poor losers. Who knew?

    If only they had spent those extra millions better....got off their arses and put in more effort...come up with a better message to sell the benefits of the EU...got their own bus message...
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,125
    That's 45% of 48% of people who voted, then?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 64,263
    So all the Spurs players will be leaving this summer.

    Looks like Daniel Levy has paid himself six million quid whilst having a strict wage structure on the players.

    What a hypocrite.
  • tysontyson Posts: 4,345
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    williamglenn said:

    The 2016 referendum cannot be the final word when so many people don’t accept that it was won on legitimate arguments in a fair campaign.

    Evidence in the change in mood required
    We have to wait a fair few years before a fair whack of the old codgers take the giant plunge into the unknown taking all their bitterness, resentment and hatred of all things modern with them.....
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,103
    Roger said:

    I would put it down to the much discredited bus and the even more discredited Johnson.

    Neither - Farage is your enemy (and mine) though I support leaving as I do not see an alternative
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 1,758
    As @AlastairMeeks is on holiday:

  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 1,909
    What a tedious thread header. Nearly half of Remainers are bad losers. So what?

    Britain is leaving the EU.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,103
    tyson said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    williamglenn said:

    The 2016 referendum cannot be the final word when so many people don’t accept that it was won on legitimate arguments in a fair campaign.

    Evidence in the change in mood required
    We have to wait a fair few years before a fair whack of the old codgers take the giant plunge into the unknown taking all their bitterness, resentment and hatred of all things modern with them.....
    Maybe but no one really knows but I do not hate as you say Tyson.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 4,985
    Some of you may be aware of the shooting tonight at YouTube. What many of you may *not* be aware of is that a few weeks ago YouTube announced new, more restrictive, guidelines concerning gun channels. There is a thriving - if slightly odd to UK eyes - ecosystem of YouTubers talking about guns, ranging from the rather charmingly studious and detailed to the madasfuck ranty people. They are concerned that those guidelines may force gun channels off YouTube to other locations. I assume that this shooting may affect this situation.

    https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/7667605?hl=en

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,103
    Foxy said:

    As @AlastairMeeks is on holiday:

    They are unacceptable and harm their cause
  • tysontyson Posts: 4,345
    Foxy said:

    After the colonoscopy story on the last thread:

    Living into geriatric old age is seriously overrated.........
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,836
    Foxy said:

    As @AlastairMeeks is on holiday:

    Wasn't 'Londonistan' coined by the Anti-Semite finder General herself Mad Mel Phillips'?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 1,758
    tyson said:

    Foxy said:

    After the colonoscopy story on the last thread:

    Living into geriatric old age is seriously overrated.........
    Possibly, but 3 Score and ten is not so bad.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 5,145
    A heartwarming tale of forgiveness:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43632914
    ..."The result was a tornado of seagull excrement, feathers, pepperoni chunks and fairly large birds whipping around the room...
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 64,263
    Found this interesting from the polling.

    image
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,268
    How many people actually saw the two actual racist posters?

    I'd guess a few thousand.

    How many saw the Remain campaign's attack on the posters?

    Several million?

    Well played lads

  • tysontyson Posts: 4,345
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    tyson said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    williamglenn said:

    The 2016 referendum cannot be the final word when so many people don’t accept that it was won on legitimate arguments in a fair campaign.

    Evidence in the change in mood required
    We have to wait a fair few years before a fair whack of the old codgers take the giant plunge into the unknown taking all their bitterness, resentment and hatred of all things modern with them.....
    Maybe but no one really knows but I do not hate as you say Tyson.
    You voted remain Big G....

    but the overwhelming over representation of oldies voting for something that will impact only on their children and grand children is really and deeply profoundly horrible....
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 21,371
    Interesting discussion about urban crime problems on Radio Five Live.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 664
    tyson said:

    This story has about as much legs as Stormy Daniels, but is like a million times more boring....

    Does Stormy have particularly short legs?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 64,263
    Foxy said:

    As @AlastairMeeks is on holiday:

    Appropriate on Punish A Muslim Day.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,103
    Foxy said:

    tyson said:

    Foxy said:

    After the colonoscopy story on the last thread:

    Living into geriatric old age is seriously overrated.........
    Possibly, but 3 Score and ten is not so bad.
    And I am +4 and my wife +8 and grateful for our blessings and our wonderful family
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 5,488
    tyson said:

    Foxy said:

    After the colonoscopy story on the last thread:

    Living into geriatric old age is seriously overrated.........
    It is very sad - but I had a friend who died of Cancer where there were delays in treatment,caused by 2 separate instances of failure by the NHS

    Happened whilst Labour was spraying money about like confetti.

    As I have said before my stay in hospital at about that time was an eye opener.

    No, I have no idea what the answer is but clearly leaving things as they are is not going to work, nor is throwing money at the problem.

  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 1,909
    tyson said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    tyson said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    williamglenn said:

    The 2016 referendum cannot be the final word when so many people don’t accept that it was won on legitimate arguments in a fair campaign.

    Evidence in the change in mood required
    We have to wait a fair few years before a fair whack of the old codgers take the giant plunge into the unknown taking all their bitterness, resentment and hatred of all things modern with them.....
    Maybe but no one really knows but I do not hate as you say Tyson.
    You voted remain Big G....

    but the overwhelming over representation of oldies voting for something that will impact only on their children and grand children is really and deeply profoundly horrible....
    Then why did you vote? Aren’t you in that age bracket?
  • AramintaMoonbeamQCAramintaMoonbeamQC Posts: 759
    Roger said:

    Foxy said:

    As @AlastairMeeks is on holiday:

    Wasn't 'Londonistan' coined by the Anti-Semite finder General herself Mad Mel Phillips'?
    Think it was the NYT, but she later brought out a book with that title.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 20,666
    tyson said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    williamglenn said:

    The 2016 referendum cannot be the final word when so many people don’t accept that it was won on legitimate arguments in a fair campaign.

    Evidence in the change in mood required
    We have to wait a fair few years before a fair whack of the old codgers take the giant plunge into the unknown taking all their bitterness, resentment and hatred of all things modern with them.....
    More people will have become old codgers, by then.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 31,828
    Cheating? Didn't the Remain side spend more?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,103
    tyson said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    tyson said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    williamglenn said:

    The 2016 referendum cannot be the final word when so many people don’t accept that it was won on legitimate arguments in a fair campaign.

    Evidence in the change in mood required
    We have to wait a fair few years before a fair whack of the old codgers take the giant plunge into the unknown taking all their bitterness, resentment and hatred of all things modern with them.....
    Maybe but no one really knows but I do not hate as you say Tyson.
    You voted remain Big G....

    but the overwhelming over representation of oldies voting for something that will impact only on their children and grand children is really and deeply profoundly horrible....
    Maybe but it may work out though longer term I would not be surprised if we did re-join
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 4,985
    tyson said:

    Living into geriatric old age is seriously overrated.........

    ...si jeunesse savait, si vieillesse pouvait... :(

  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 2,714
    edited April 3
    FPT
    Elliot said:

    But the basic premise of balancing productivity reforms with income distribution is still sound. In fact, it is more fitting for the 2010s than previously, as automation and digitisation allows us to provide universal public services for less

    There has been a trend of greater productivity and improved technology for over two centuries in the UK, of which automation and digitalisation are just the latest incarnation. Is it clear that they will radically transform the delivery of public services any more than, say, the coming of e-government and online portals to services was hoped to in the 1990s and 2000s, or computerised record processing in the 70s/80s? Or when public servants were first freed up to cover a wider local area by internal combustion transportation, or communicate with each other faster than mail by the advent of the telephone or telegram? (An incalculable boon to colonial administrators so I'm not doing it down at all. Merely pointing out that radical change is nothing new, indeed it's been with us for our entire lifespans and those of our grandparents too. There's a lovely video here of a 94 year-old woman - Rebecca Latimer Felton, a former slave-owner and the first woman to serve in the US Senate - interviewed in 1929, who recounts as a child in the late 1830s watching the Native Americans being marched out during the Indian Removal. Now the airplanes are such a common sight and sound overhead, she doesn't even bother running out of the house to watch them anymore.



    (She's at 8m31s)

    Anyhow, I digress. One reason I'm less convinced about automation/digitalisation freeing up public resources is Baumol's cost disease. As our age pyramid travels along its conveyer belt, our public services are becoming ever-disproportionately dominated by the need to provide health and social care, principally to the elderly. That is not an easily automated task with the technology of the coming decade or two. It's not even a task that is easily rendered efficient by Taylorist time-and-motion studies - it would be hard to run care in the manner of a sausage-widget factory, and I'm not sure we even want that.
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 2,714
    Moreover, even areas of government service provision that do have significant potential for efficiencies through automation and digitalisation with the technology now coming on-screen - education, for instance - are likely to be held back not only by practical difficulties of implementation but by the conservatism with which voters prefer to consume services. Parents' ideal standard for numeracy education is likely to remain a highly skilled teacher and a couple of learning support assistants in a classroom of 15-20 students (though they'd take 25, and 30 will be seen as overcrowded and 30+ a sign that private fees may be worth paying) rather than one-to-one provision by an AI-driven e-tutor with a deeper personalised programme for that child's needs, long after that technological solution has been refined. (As long-standing PBers will be aware, I'm basically trying to tempt @MTimT2 to humblebrag on the behalf of his daughter, but he is unusually progressive in his parental attitude!)
  • tysontyson Posts: 4,345
    edited April 3
    Foxy said:

    tyson said:

    Foxy said:

    After the colonoscopy story on the last thread:

    Living into geriatric old age is seriously overrated.........
    Possibly, but 3 Score and ten is not so bad.
    Foxy...I cannot imagine any Doctor in the NHS who sees the pressures placed by the oldies, the hospital appointments, the check ups, the pressures on A & E, the pressure on their families... who doesn't share their views privately to their colleagues... Doctoring in geriatric care is not a vocation in any kind....

    Life its like going out for a few beers....you have fun for the first seven pints or so if you are lucky enough to be well....when you reach the 8th pint plus, the 9th, 10th...11th....you just want to throw up....
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,836
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Found this interesting from the polling.

    image

    Proves that advertising works right up until the customer tries the product.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 17,798
    RobD said:

    Cheating? Didn't the Remain side spend more?

    How much of RT's budget are we adding to the Leave totaliser?
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,268
    RobD said:

    Cheating? Didn't the Remain side spend more?

    But they didn't spend any of it reminding folk of the government's official line on Turkey. That would be xenophobic.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 1,758
    tyson said:

    Foxy said:

    tyson said:

    Foxy said:

    After the colonoscopy story on the last thread:

    Living into geriatric old age is seriously overrated.........
    Possibly, but 3 Score and ten is not so bad.
    Foxy...I cannot imagine any Doctor in the NHS who sees the pressures placed by the oldies, the hospital appointments, the check ups, the pressures on A & E, the pressure on their families... who doesn't share their views privately to their colleagues... Doctoring in geriatric care is not a vocation in any kind....

    Life its like going out for a few beers....you have fun for the first seven pints or so if you are lucky enough to be well....when you reach the 8th pint plus, the 9th, 10th...11th....you just want to throw up....
    I wouldn't be quite so down on old age, I have patients of 95 who still seem to be enjoying themselves.

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,103
    tyson said:

    Foxy said:

    tyson said:

    Foxy said:

    After the colonoscopy story on the last thread:

    Living into geriatric old age is seriously overrated.........
    Possibly, but 3 Score and ten is not so bad.
    Foxy...I cannot imagine any Doctor in the NHS who sees the pressures placed by the oldies, the hospital appointments, the check ups, the pressures on A & E, the pressure on their families... who doesn't share their views privately to their colleagues... Doctoring in geriatric care is not a vocation in any kind....

    Life its like going out for a few beers....you have fun for the first seven pints or so if you are lucky enough to be well....when you reach the 8th pint plus, the 9th, 10th...11th....you just want to throw up....
    Actually my wife and I are just grateful that we are able to contribute to our family though with much less energy and a little help from medicines.

    I would say that I have yearly check ups and 6 monthly blood tests, have had the bowel testing kits for some years, and neither my wife or I smoke or drink. Maybe being boring extends your life
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,268
    What percentage of Leavers think that 45% of Remainers would be complaining whatever the news?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,836
    Floater said:

    tyson said:

    Foxy said:

    After the colonoscopy story on the last thread:

    Living into geriatric old age is seriously overrated.........
    It is very sad - but I had a friend who died of Cancer where there were delays in treatment,caused by 2 separate instances of failure by the NHS

    Happened whilst Labour was spraying money about like confetti.

    As I have said before my stay in hospital at about that time was an eye opener.

    No, I have no idea what the answer is but clearly leaving things as they are is not going to work, nor is throwing money at the problem.

    That doesn't make sense. The only reason countries have excellent health services is because of the money they spend on them.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,103
    Roger said:

    Floater said:

    tyson said:

    Foxy said:

    After the colonoscopy story on the last thread:

    Living into geriatric old age is seriously overrated.........
    It is very sad - but I had a friend who died of Cancer where there were delays in treatment,caused by 2 separate instances of failure by the NHS

    Happened whilst Labour was spraying money about like confetti.

    As I have said before my stay in hospital at about that time was an eye opener.

    No, I have no idea what the answer is but clearly leaving things as they are is not going to work, nor is throwing money at the problem.

    That doesn't make sense. The only reason countries have excellent health services is because of the money they spend on them.
    I would just add - spend money wisely
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 957
    MyBurningEars said:

    FPT

    Elliot said:

    But the basic premise of balancing productivity reforms with income distribution is still sound. In fact, it is more fitting for the 2010s than previously, as automation and digitisation allows us to provide universal public services for less



    (She's at 8m31s)

    Anyhow, I digress. One reason I'm less convinced about automation/digitalisation freeing up public resources is Baumol's cost disease. As our age pyramid travels along its conveyer belt, our public services are becoming ever-disproportionately dominated by the need to provide health and social care, principally to the elderly. That is not an easily automated task with the technology of the coming decade or two. It's not even a task that is easily rendered efficient by Taylorist time-and-motion studies - it would be hard to run care in the manner of a sausage-widget factory, and I'm not sure we even want that.
    I take your point... to an extent. We still seem to be witnessing a huge leap forward in automation's potential, and its spread is happening faster than reforms of the past. We now have banks that are little more than a HQ and a call centre to pick just one example. Of course there are things like social care that will need to depend on manual work, but there are huge parts of the civil service where that isn't the case. Think of the DWP for example. That can save money to be ploughed into care. The right wants to just slash and burn the state, as it doesn't believe in it playing a major role, while the left thinks it is there as a make-work institute. Social democrats are the only ones that believe in both efficiency and universal service.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 957
    Foxy said:

    tyson said:

    Foxy said:

    tyson said:

    Foxy said:

    After the colonoscopy story on the last thread:

    Living into geriatric old age is seriously overrated.........
    Possibly, but 3 Score and ten is not so bad.
    Foxy...I cannot imagine any Doctor in the NHS who sees the pressures placed by the oldies, the hospital appointments, the check ups, the pressures on A & E, the pressure on their families... who doesn't share their views privately to their colleagues... Doctoring in geriatric care is not a vocation in any kind....

    Life its like going out for a few beers....you have fun for the first seven pints or so if you are lucky enough to be well....when you reach the 8th pint plus, the 9th, 10th...11th....you just want to throw up....
    I wouldn't be quite so down on old age, I have patients of 95 who still seem to be enjoying themselves.

    I just want to live long enough I can benefit from cyborg technology to keep me going further.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 5,488
    Roger said:

    Floater said:

    tyson said:

    Foxy said:

    After the colonoscopy story on the last thread:

    Living into geriatric old age is seriously overrated.........
    It is very sad - but I had a friend who died of Cancer where there were delays in treatment,caused by 2 separate instances of failure by the NHS

    Happened whilst Labour was spraying money about like confetti.

    As I have said before my stay in hospital at about that time was an eye opener.

    No, I have no idea what the answer is but clearly leaving things as they are is not going to work, nor is throwing money at the problem.

    That doesn't make sense. The only reason countries have excellent health services is because of the money they spend on them.
    The ONLY reason Roger?

    Try to think just a little bit more on the subject

    Those two events really happened - others have other stories - some very well known
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 10,222
    Roger said:

    Floater said:

    tyson said:

    Foxy said:

    After the colonoscopy story on the last thread:

    Living into geriatric old age is seriously overrated.........
    It is very sad - but I had a friend who died of Cancer where there were delays in treatment,caused by 2 separate instances of failure by the NHS

    Happened whilst Labour was spraying money about like confetti.

    As I have said before my stay in hospital at about that time was an eye opener.

    No, I have no idea what the answer is but clearly leaving things as they are is not going to work, nor is throwing money at the problem.

    That doesn't make sense. The only reason countries have excellent health services is because of the money they spend on them.
    Decent funding is a necessary but not sufficient condition.

    In particular, there is a pretty direct correlation between funding and waiting times for elective surgery (emergencies have been treated pretty quickly in most circs). When I was eleced in 1997 I found constituents who'd been waiting two years for a hip replacements. Under Labour it went down to 18 weeks. It's now heading back for two years.
  • tysontyson Posts: 4,345
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    tyson said:

    Foxy said:

    tyson said:

    Foxy said:

    After the colonoscopy story on the last thread:

    Living into geriatric old age is seriously overrated.........
    Possibly, but 3 Score and ten is not so bad.
    Foxy...I cannot imagine any Doctor in the NHS who sees the pressures placed by the oldies, the hospital appointments, the check ups, the pressures on A & E, the pressure on their families... who doesn't share their views privately to their colleagues... Doctoring in geriatric care is not a vocation in any kind....

    Life its like going out for a few beers....you have fun for the first seven pints or so if you are lucky enough to be well....when you reach the 8th pint plus, the 9th, 10th...11th....you just want to throw up....
    Actually my wife and I are just grateful that we are able to contribute to our family though with much less energy and a little help from medicines.

    I would say that I have yearly check ups and 6 monthly blood tests, have had the bowel testing kits for some years, and neither my wife or I smoke or drink. Maybe being boring extends your life
    I think 83 is now the old 70.......people, through diet, not drinking, smoking, exercise can reach 83/83 without serious complications....

    but after 83/84 you have to be seriously lucky....and I mean seriously....most people in their late eighties are blighted by terrible health which has profound consequences not only for themselves, but their families...and of course the health system...

    I don't believe in euthanasia, as much I do not believe in capital punishment. The premature ending of a sentient human life is beyond comprehension....

    but we need to be much more honest about what awaits many of us if our lives are prolonged into health ill by medical interventions....
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 2,714
    AramintaMoonbeamQC said:

    Roger said:

    Foxy said:

    As @AlastairMeeks is on holiday:

    Wasn't 'Londonistan' coined by the Anti-Semite finder General herself Mad Mel Phillips'?
    Think it was the NYT, but she later brought out a book with that title.
    In the mid/late 1990s "Londonistan" was covered in some depth in an edition of Le Nouvel Observateur (these days even the official title is just "L'Obs"). It was their lead story that month so "Londonistan" was all over the front cover - I have a dim recollection of a map of Britain with a white-on-green Islamic crescent over the south-east of England but that may not quite be right.

    I don't know whether this name pre-dated other uses, and perhaps it evolved entirely independently of it, but according to the (generally thoroughly centre-left) L'Obs, "Londonistan" was the name that French intelligence privately had for London. In light of our police and secret services' "light touch" approach to political Islamism, including those agitating for violence and revolution overseas, this was a particular concern of theirs. They were worried about Arabs with links to the GIA and returnees from the fighting in Afghanistan.

    For what it's worth there was quite a nexus of hardcore political Islam in London at the time, but just like London's large nexus of revolutionary communist organisations, many with an international orientation that takes them largely out of the domestic agenda, I think it went generally unremarked over here unless you were looking out for it. I think I may have told PB before that some of my devoutly Muslim acquaintances in the south-east of England had some relationship with the fringes of this movement, pre-9/11, hanging out some dodgy people and speakers and reading some "interesting" literature - several had very positive views of Osama bin Laden (more freedom fighter than terrorist) and very high hopes, including intentions to visit, the Taliban government of Afghanistan (which they hoped would provide a proper Sunni theocracy to show up the failures of the corrupt Saudi regime and be a counterweight to the Shia government of Iran - for the Sunnis it was a great disappointment that most people's views of a "typical" Islamic theocracy was led by what they saw as a demographically fairly minor and extremely unrepresentatively heretical sect).
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 8,286
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    So all the Spurs players will be leaving this summer.

    Looks like Daniel Levy has paid himself six million quid whilst having a strict wage structure on the players.

    What a hypocrite.

    offering odds on 'all' of them?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,103
    tyson said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    tyson said:

    Foxy said:

    tyson said:

    Foxy said:

    After the colonoscopy story on the last thread:

    Living into geriatric old age is seriously overrated.........
    Possibly, but 3 Score and ten is not so bad.
    Foxy...I cannot imagine any Doctor in the NHS who sees the pressures placed by the oldies, the hospital appointments, the check ups, the pressures on A & E, the pressure on their families... who doesn't share their views privately to their colleagues... Doctoring in geriatric care is not a vocation in any kind....

    Life its like going out for a few beers....you have fun for the first seven pints or so if you are lucky enough to be well....when you reach the 8th pint plus, the 9th, 10th...11th....you just want to throw up....
    Actually my wife and I are just grateful that we are able to contribute to our family though with much less energy and a little help from medicines.

    I would say that I have yearly check ups and 6 monthly blood tests, have had the bowel testing kits for some years, and neither my wife or I smoke or drink. Maybe being boring extends your life
    I think 83 is now the old 70.......people, through diet, not drinking, smoking, exercise can reach 83/83 without serious complications....

    but after 83/84 you have to be seriously lucky....and I mean seriously....most people in their late eighties are blighted by terrible health which has profound consequences not only for themselves, but their families...and of course the health system...

    I don't believe in euthanasia, as much I do not believe in capital punishment. The premature ending of a sentient human life is beyond comprehension....

    but we need to be much more honest about what awaits many of us if our lives are prolonged into health ill by medical interventions....
    I agree with that - my sister had a DNR notice as her cancer spread to her brain before she died 3 months later
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 64,263
    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    So all the Spurs players will be leaving this summer.

    Looks like Daniel Levy has paid himself six million quid whilst having a strict wage structure on the players.

    What a hypocrite.

    offering odds on 'all' of them?
    I reckon 4 of Harry Kane, Dele Alli, Toby Alderweireld, Danny Rose, and Christian Eriksen will do one.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,429
    Sean_F said:

    tyson said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    williamglenn said:

    The 2016 referendum cannot be the final word when so many people don’t accept that it was won on legitimate arguments in a fair campaign.

    Evidence in the change in mood required
    We have to wait a fair few years before a fair whack of the old codgers take the giant plunge into the unknown taking all their bitterness, resentment and hatred of all things modern with them.....
    More people will have become old codgers, by then.
    Even more....
  • tysontyson Posts: 4,345
    Foxy said:

    tyson said:

    Foxy said:

    tyson said:

    Foxy said:

    After the colonoscopy story on the last thread:

    Living into geriatric old age is seriously overrated.........
    Possibly, but 3 Score and ten is not so bad.
    Foxy...I cannot imagine any Doctor in the NHS who sees the pressures placed by the oldies, the hospital appointments, the check ups, the pressures on A & E, the pressure on their families... who doesn't share their views privately to their colleagues... Doctoring in geriatric care is not a vocation in any kind....

    Life its like going out for a few beers....you have fun for the first seven pints or so if you are lucky enough to be well....when you reach the 8th pint plus, the 9th, 10th...11th....you just want to throw up....
    I wouldn't be quite so down on old age, I have patients of 95 who still seem to be enjoying themselves.

    Foxy...you should know better than using these kind of anecdotes.....it's what stops us being honest about what are the right choices towards the end of life....


    for every 95 year old who is enjoying themselves, how many other over 90's are depressed, lost their minds, in terrible health and riddled with pain, and causing anguish and anxiety for their loved ones....

    I don't know what the answers are...but I expect better (much better) from a medic who resorts to Pollyanna like anecdotes....
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 957
    NickPalmer said:

    Roger said:

    Floater said:

    tyson said:

    Foxy said:

    After the colonoscopy story on the last thread:

    Living into geriatric old age is seriously overrated.........
    It is very sad - but I had a friend who died of Cancer where there were delays in treatment,caused by 2 separate instances of failure by the NHS

    Happened whilst Labour was spraying money about like confetti.

    As I have said before my stay in hospital at about that time was an eye opener.

    No, I have no idea what the answer is but clearly leaving things as they are is not going to work, nor is throwing money at the problem.

    That doesn't make sense. The only reason countries have excellent health services is because of the money they spend on them.
    Decent funding is a necessary but not sufficient condition.

    In particular, there is a pretty direct correlation between funding and waiting times for elective surgery (emergencies have been treated pretty quickly in most circs). When I was eleced in 1997 I found constituents who'd been waiting two years for a hip replacements. Under Labour it went down to 18 weeks. It's now heading back for two years.
    And under a Corbyn government it would come down again, until the rising debt caused a market reaction. Then we would see a really neo-Thatcherite Tory government.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 4,985
    Elliot said:

    I take your point... to an extent. We still seem to be witnessing a huge leap forward in automation's potential, and its spread is happening faster than reforms of the past. We now have banks that are little more than a HQ and a call centre to pick just one example. Of course there are things like social care that will need to depend on manual work, but there are huge parts of the civil service where that isn't the case. Think of the DWP for example. That can save money to be ploughed into care. The right wants to just slash and burn the state, as it doesn't believe in it playing a major role, while the left thinks it is there as a make-work institute. Social democrats are the only ones that believe in both efficiency and universal service.

    I note your avocation of social democracy, but I have to point out that Theresa May has done an end-run around you. She's singlehandedly pushing the party in a Christian Democrat direction, espousing a more inward-looking homely philosophy that will encompass more public spending, more taxation, and a focus on everyday life improvements like the gender pay audit (is it only me who has noticed this?). It's a huge change for the party of Thatcher, but I suspect the modern-day Conservative party no longer bellyfeel Thatcherism, being more willing to genuflect to the image than observe the substance.

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,103
    viewcode said:

    Elliot said:

    I take your point... to an extent. We still seem to be witnessing a huge leap forward in automation's potential, and its spread is happening faster than reforms of the past. We now have banks that are little more than a HQ and a call centre to pick just one example. Of course there are things like social care that will need to depend on manual work, but there are huge parts of the civil service where that isn't the case. Think of the DWP for example. That can save money to be ploughed into care. The right wants to just slash and burn the state, as it doesn't believe in it playing a major role, while the left thinks it is there as a make-work institute. Social democrats are the only ones that believe in both efficiency and universal service.

    I note your avocation of social democracy, but I have to point out that Theresa May has done an end-run around you. She's singlehandedly pushing the party in a Christian Democrat direction, espousing a more inward-looking homely philosophy that will encompass more public spending, more taxation, and a focus on everyday life improvements like the gender pay audit (is it only me who has noticed this?). It's a huge change for the party of Thatcher, but I suspect the modern-day Conservative party no longer bellyfeel Thatcherism, being more willing to genuflect to the image than observe the substance.

    And I welcome her move
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 2,714
    MyBurningEars said:

    AramintaMoonbeamQC said:

    Roger said:

    Foxy said:

    As @AlastairMeeks is on holiday:

    Wasn't 'Londonistan' coined by the Anti-Semite finder General herself Mad Mel Phillips'?
    Think it was the NYT, but she later brought out a book with that title.
    In the mid/late 1990s* "Londonistan" was covered in some depth in an edition of Le Nouvel Observateur

    * I can't date it more accurately than that I'm afraid, other than that being the period where I read L'Obs regularly and it was obviously before 9/11 which would have changed the complexion of the article completely! But it was an enjoyable magazine, I certainly preferred it to Time or Newsweek. I do read the odd article online still.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 6,793
    viewcode said:

    Elliot said:

    I take your point... to an extent. We still seem to be witnessing a huge leap forward in automation's potential, and its spread is happening faster than reforms of the past. We now have banks that are little more than a HQ and a call centre to pick just one example. Of course there are things like social care that will need to depend on manual work, but there are huge parts of the civil service where that isn't the case. Think of the DWP for example. That can save money to be ploughed into care. The right wants to just slash and burn the state, as it doesn't believe in it playing a major role, while the left thinks it is there as a make-work institute. Social democrats are the only ones that believe in both efficiency and universal service.

    I note your avocation of social democracy, but I have to point out that Theresa May has done an end-run around you. She's singlehandedly pushing the party in a Christian Democrat direction, espousing a more inward-looking homely philosophy that will encompass more public spending, more taxation, and a focus on everyday life improvements like the gender pay audit (is it only me who has noticed this?). It's a huge change for the party of Thatcher, but I suspect the modern-day Conservative party no longer bellyfeel Thatcherism, being more willing to genuflect to the image than observe the substance.

    The rhetoric has certainly changed from the Conservatives since May took over, but what of the substance has changed?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 4,985
    JonnyJimmy said:

    What percentage of Leavers think that 45% of Remainers would be complaining whatever the news?

    7.65379 percent.

    Pause.

    Or a different number.

    :)

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,103
    Time for this old codger to wish everyone a pleasant nights rest

    Good night
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 21,371
    It would be interesting to know how many homicides have occurred so far this year in the UK excluding Greater London, but it seems to be difficult to get hold of any figures on the subject.
  • tysontyson Posts: 4,345
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    tyson said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    tyson said:

    Foxy said:

    tyson said:

    Foxy said:

    After the colonoscopy story on the last thread:

    Living into geriatric old age is seriously overrated.........
    Possibly, but 3 Score and ten is not so bad.
    Foxy...I cannot imagine any Doctor in the NHS who sees the pressures placed by the oldies, the hospital appointments, the check ups, the pressures on A & E, the pressure on their families... who doesn't share their views privately to their colleagues... Doctoring in geriatric care is not a vocation in any kind....

    Life its like going out for a few beers....you have fun for the first seven pints or so if you are lucky enough to be well....when you reach the 8th pint plus, the 9th, 10th...11th....you just want to throw up....
    Actually my wife and I are just grateful that we are able to contribute to our family though with much less energy and a little help from medicines.

    I would say that I have yearly check ups and 6 monthly blood tests, have had the bowel testing kits for some years, and neither my wife or I smoke or drink. Maybe being boring extends your life
    I think 83 is now the old 70.......people, through diet, not drinking, smoking, exercise can reach 83/83 without serious complications....

    but after 83/84 you have to be seriously lucky....and I mean seriously....most people in their late eighties are blighted by terrible health which has profound consequences not only for themselves, but their families...and of course the health system...

    I don't believe in euthanasia, as much I do not believe in capital punishment. The premature ending of a sentient human life is beyond comprehension....

    but we need to be much more honest about what awaits many of us if our lives are prolonged into health ill by medical interventions....
    I agree with that - my sister had a DNR notice as her cancer spread to her brain before she died 3 months later
    Big G...I'm presently experiencing the third prolonged bereavement of a parent or in law in. their eighties in the last two years.....it is beyond painful..for them, for me, for my wife, my siblings....and I can see the callousness of health professionals at first hand....


  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,268
    NickPalmer said:

    Roger said:

    Floater said:

    tyson said:

    Foxy said:

    After the colonoscopy story on the last thread:

    Living into geriatric old age is seriously overrated.........
    It is very sad - but I had a friend who died of Cancer where there were delays in treatment,caused by 2 separate instances of failure by the NHS

    Happened whilst Labour was spraying money about like confetti.

    As I have said before my stay in hospital at about that time was an eye opener.

    No, I have no idea what the answer is but clearly leaving things as they are is not going to work, nor is throwing money at the problem.

    That doesn't make sense. The only reason countries have excellent health services is because of the money they spend on them.
    Decent funding is a necessary but not sufficient condition.

    In particular, there is a pretty direct correlation between funding and waiting times for elective surgery (emergencies have been treated pretty quickly in most circs). When I was eleced in 1997 I found constituents who'd been waiting two years for a hip replacements. Under Labour it went down to 18 weeks. It's now heading back for two years.
    While I'd accept a good proportion of the increase in waiting times is down to cuts, another chunk is down to a greater number of overweight people wanting hip replacements. They don't last anywhere near as long under the pressure of huge guts as they should, so surgeons are reluctant to do the first one for fatties - they're going to need a new set every three or four years, rather than eight to ten.
  • tysontyson Posts: 4,345
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Time for this old codger to wish everyone a pleasant nights rest

    Good night

    Cheers Big G.....
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 2,714
    tyson said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    tyson said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    tyson said:

    Foxy said:

    tyson said:

    Foxy said:

    After the colonoscopy story on the last thread:

    Living into geriatric old age is seriously overrated.........
    Possibly, but 3 Score and ten is not so bad.
    Foxy...I cannot imagine any Doctor in the NHS who sees the pressures placed by the oldies, the hospital appointments, the check ups, the pressures on A & E, the pressure on their families... who doesn't share their views privately to their colleagues... Doctoring in geriatric care is not a vocation in any kind....

    Life its like going out for a few beers....you have fun for the first seven pints or so if you are lucky enough to be well....when you reach the 8th pint plus, the 9th, 10th...11th....you just want to throw up....
    Actually my wife and I are just grateful that we are able to contribute to our family though with much less energy and a little help from medicines.

    I would say that I have yearly check ups and 6 monthly blood tests, have had the bowel testing kits for some years, and neither my wife or I smoke or drink. Maybe being boring extends your life
    I think 83 is now the old 70.......people, through diet, not drinking, smoking, exercise can reach 83/83 without serious complications....

    but after 83/84 you have to be seriously lucky....and I mean seriously....most people in their late eighties are blighted by terrible health which has profound consequences not only for themselves, but their families...and of course the health system...

    I don't believe in euthanasia, as much I do not believe in capital punishment. The premature ending of a sentient human life is beyond comprehension....

    but we need to be much more honest about what awaits many of us if our lives are prolonged into health ill by medical interventions....
    I agree with that - my sister had a DNR notice as her cancer spread to her brain before she died 3 months later
    Big G...I'm presently experiencing the third prolonged bereavement of a parent or in law in. their eighties in the last two years.....it is beyond painful..for them, for me, for my wife, my siblings....and I can see the callousness of health professionals at first hand....


    All best wishes Tyson, and Big G.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,103
    tyson said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    tyson said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    tyson said:

    Foxy said:

    tyson said:

    Foxy said:

    After the colonoscopy story on the last thread:

    Living into geriatric old age is seriously overrated.........
    Possibly, but 3 Score and ten is not so bad.
    Foxy...I cannot imagine any Doctor in the NHS who sees the pressures placed by the oldies, the hospital appointments, the check ups, the pressures on A & E, the pressure on their families... who doesn't share their views privately to their colleagues... Doctoring in geriatric care is not a vocation in any kind....

    Life its like going out for a few beers....you have fun for the first seven pints or so if you are lucky enough to be well....when you reach the 8th pint plus, the 9th, 10th...11th....you just want to throw up....
    Actually my wife and I are just grateful that we are able to contribute to our family though with much less energy and a little help from medicines.

    I would say that I have yearly check ups and 6 monthly blood tests, have had the bowel testing kits for some years, and neither my wife or I smoke or drink. Maybe being boring extends your life
    I think 83 is now the old 70.......people, through diet, not drinking, smoking, exercise can reach 83/83 without serious complications....

    but after 83/84 you have to be seriously lucky....and I mean seriously....most people in their late eighties are blighted by terrible health which has profound consequences not only for themselves, but their families...and of course the health system...

    I don't believe in euthanasia, as much I do not believe in capital punishment. The premature ending of a sentient human life is beyond comprehension....

    but we need to be much more honest about what awaits many of us if our lives are prolonged into health ill by medical interventions....
    I agree with that - my sister had a DNR notice as her cancer spread to her brain before she died 3 months later
    Big G...I'm presently experiencing the third prolonged bereavement of a parent or in law in. their eighties in the last two years.....it is beyond painful..for them, for me, for my wife, my siblings....and I can see the callousness of health professionals at first hand....


    It is very distressing. There comes a time when treatment should only be palliative.

    You have my compete understanding and thoughts at these most difficult of times
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 64,263
    edited April 3
    AndyJS said:

    It would be interesting to know how many homicides have occurred so far this year in the UK excluding Greater London, but it seems to be difficult to get hold of any figures on the subject.

    There's been 48 murders in the UK this year.

    Going back, this is a useful tool.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/homicideinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2017

    You'll have to make adjustments/judgment calls on deaths by terrorism, and also adjust for exceptionals like Harold Shipman

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1439484/Shipman-swells-murder-figures.html
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 4,985
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    viewcode said:

    Elliot said:

    I take your point... to an extent. We still seem to be witnessing a huge leap forward in automation's potential, and its spread is happening faster than reforms of the past. We now have banks that are little more than a HQ and a call centre to pick just one example. Of course there are things like social care that will need to depend on manual work, but there are huge parts of the civil service where that isn't the case. Think of the DWP for example. That can save money to be ploughed into care. The right wants to just slash and burn the state, as it doesn't believe in it playing a major role, while the left thinks it is there as a make-work institute. Social democrats are the only ones that believe in both efficiency and universal service.

    I note your avocation of social democracy, but I have to point out that Theresa May has done an end-run around you. She's singlehandedly pushing the party in a Christian Democrat direction, espousing a more inward-looking homely philosophy that will encompass more public spending, more taxation, and a focus on everyday life improvements like the gender pay audit (is it only me who has noticed this?). It's a huge change for the party of Thatcher, but I suspect the modern-day Conservative party no longer bellyfeel Thatcherism, being more willing to genuflect to the image than observe the substance.

    And I welcome her move
    Ah, but where is the greatness? The dragons to slay, the horizons to reach, the boldly to be going? It's a more human landscape, domestic and comfy-cozy, but few punching-the-air moments. It's not a government for romantics and dreamers... :(
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 957
    viewcode said:

    Elliot said:

    I take your point... to an extent. We still seem to be witnessing a huge leap forward in automation's potential, and its spread is happening faster than reforms of the past. We now have banks that are little more than a HQ and a call centre to pick just one example. Of course there are things like social care that will need to depend on manual work, but there are huge parts of the civil service where that isn't the case. Think of the DWP for example. That can save money to be ploughed into care. The right wants to just slash and burn the state, as it doesn't believe in it playing a major role, while the left thinks it is there as a make-work institute. Social democrats are the only ones that believe in both efficiency and universal service.

    I note your avocation of social democracy, but I have to point out that Theresa May has done an end-run around you. She's singlehandedly pushing the party in a Christian Democrat direction, espousing a more inward-looking homely philosophy that will encompass more public spending, more taxation, and a focus on everyday life improvements like the gender pay audit (is it only me who has noticed this?). It's a huge change for the party of Thatcher, but I suspect the modern-day Conservative party no longer bellyfeel Thatcherism, being more willing to genuflect to the image than observe the substance.

    And, as a result, I have been fairly defensive of Mrs May on here. I still don't think she has used the power of the state as much as she could do, and the Tories will never raise taxes on the rich unless forced, but I did vote for her over the far left alternative.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 21,371
    O/T

    Warwickshire police are looking for this person:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-43633424
  • RogerRoger Posts: 8,836
    OT. Just heard someone say 'Is Jesus playing tomorrow night? He's had a tough week-end'
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,645
    So only just over a third of Remain voters believe Leave cheated alone, while 33% of Leave voters, almost the same believe Remain cheated or both sides cheated, so I don't think this is going to make too much difference
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,645
    viewcode said:

    Elliot said:

    I take your point... to an extent. We still seem to be witnessing a huge leap forward in automation's potential, and its spread is happening faster than reforms of the past. We now have banks that are little more than a HQ and a call centre to pick just one example. Of course there are things like social care that will need to depend on manual work, but there are huge parts of the civil service where that isn't the case. Think of the DWP for example. That can save money to be ploughed into care. The right wants to just slash and burn the state, as it doesn't believe in it playing a major role, while the left thinks it is there as a make-work institute. Social democrats are the only ones that believe in both efficiency and universal service.

    I note your avocation of social democracy, but I have to point out that Theresa May has done an end-run around you. She's singlehandedly pushing the party in a Christian Democrat direction, espousing a more inward-looking homely philosophy that will encompass more public spending, more taxation, and a focus on everyday life improvements like the gender pay audit (is it only me who has noticed this?). It's a huge change for the party of Thatcher, but I suspect the modern-day Conservative party no longer bellyfeel Thatcherism, being more willing to genuflect to the image than observe the substance.

    Essentially May is left of Blair and Corbyn is left of Harold Wilson, that is how far left the pendulum has swung since the referendum, at least in economic terms.

    Though May is also the most socially conservative PM since Thatcher and Corbyn is more socially conservative than Ed Miliband was in some respects too
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,645
    Foxy said:

    After the colonoscopy story on the last thread:

    What NHS cuts? The NHS was ringfenced from cuts in 2010 and has received an extra £8 billion over the course of this Parliament
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 17,798
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 1,909
    viewcode said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    viewcode said:

    Elliot said:

    I take your point... to an extent. We still seem to be witnessing a huge leap forward in automation's potential, and its spread is happening faster than reforms of the past. We now have banks that are little more than a HQ and a call centre to pick just one example. Of course there are things like social care that will need to depend on manual work, but there are huge parts of the civil service where that isn't the case. Think of the DWP for example. That can save money to be ploughed into care. The right wants to just slash and burn the state, as it doesn't believe in it playing a major role, while the left thinks it is there as a make-work institute. Social democrats are the only ones that believe in both efficiency and universal service.

    I note your avocation of social democracy, but I have to point out that Theresa May has done an end-run around you. She's singlehandedly pushing the party in a Christian Democrat direction, espousing a more inward-looking homely philosophy that will encompass more public spending, more taxation, and a focus on everyday life improvements like the gender pay audit (is it only me who has noticed this?). It's a huge change for the party of Thatcher, but I suspect the modern-day Conservative party no longer bellyfeel Thatcherism, being more willing to genuflect to the image than observe the substance.

    And I welcome her move
    Ah, but where is the greatness? The dragons to slay, the horizons to reach, the boldly to be going? It's a more human landscape, domestic and comfy-cozy, but few punching-the-air moments. It's not a government for romantics and dreamers... :(
    Switzerland/Sweden with nukes.

    There are worse fates.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,645
    edited April 3

  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 7,700
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    After the colonoscopy story on the last thread:

    What NHS cuts? The NHS was ringfenced from cuts in 2010 and has received an extra £8 billion over the course of this Parliament
    The cuts were to the training programme needed for the rollout of the NHS's bowel scope programme. The Treasury decided this fell outside the ringfenced area.
  • notmenotme Posts: 2,371
    DecrepitJohnL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    After the colonoscopy story on the last thread:

    What NHS cuts? The NHS was ringfenced from cuts in 2010 and has received an extra £8 billion over the course of this Parliament
    The cuts were to the training programme needed for the rollout of the NHS's bowel scope programme. The Treasury decided this fell outside the ringfenced area.
    That’s not cute that’s managing priorities. No matter how big the resource, you need to prioritise. Funding in 2010 for the nhs was staggering compared to what it historically had had. And that funding wasn’t eroded under the Tories.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 7,700
    notme said:

    DecrepitJohnL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    After the colonoscopy story on the last thread:

    What NHS cuts? The NHS was ringfenced from cuts in 2010 and has received an extra £8 billion over the course of this Parliament
    The cuts were to the training programme needed for the rollout of the NHS's bowel scope programme. The Treasury decided this fell outside the ringfenced area.
    That’s not cute that’s managing priorities. No matter how big the resource, you need to prioritise. Funding in 2010 for the nhs was staggering compared to what it historically had had. And that funding wasn’t eroded under the Tories.
    This is angels on the head of a pin stuff. The programme was cut; the rollout was delayed; Andrew Lansley was among those whose cancer was therefore missed. What is the point in arguing which Cabinet minister was responsible?
  • notmenotme Posts: 2,371
    DecrepitJohnL said:

    notme said:

    DecrepitJohnL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    After the colonoscopy story on the last thread:

    What NHS cuts? The NHS was ringfenced from cuts in 2010 and has received an extra £8 billion over the course of this Parliament
    The cuts were to the training programme needed for the rollout of the NHS's bowel scope programme. The Treasury decided this fell outside the ringfenced area.
    That’s not cute that’s managing priorities. No matter how big the resource, you need to prioritise. Funding in 2010 for the nhs was staggering compared to what it historically had had. And that funding wasn’t eroded under the Tories.
    This is angels on the head of a pin stuff. The programme was cut; the rollout was delayed; Andrew Lansley was among those whose cancer was therefore missed. What is the point in arguing which Cabinet minister was responsible?
    But services are constantly getting shaped, new initiatives launched, old ones revised. New practices and procedures introduced. How many a and e services got shut down under Labour? Despite record funding? It wasn’t due to ‘cuts’ but reconfiguring services to meet growing demands.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 7,700
    notme said:

    DecrepitJohnL said:

    notme said:

    DecrepitJohnL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    After the colonoscopy story on the last thread:

    What NHS cuts? The NHS was ringfenced from cuts in 2010 and has received an extra £8 billion over the course of this Parliament
    The cuts were to the training programme needed for the rollout of the NHS's bowel scope programme. The Treasury decided this fell outside the ringfenced area.
    That’s not cute that’s managing priorities. No matter how big the resource, you need to prioritise. Funding in 2010 for the nhs was staggering compared to what it historically had had. And that funding wasn’t eroded under the Tories.
    This is angels on the head of a pin stuff. The programme was cut; the rollout was delayed; Andrew Lansley was among those whose cancer was therefore missed. What is the point in arguing which Cabinet minister was responsible?
    But services are constantly getting shaped, new initiatives launched, old ones revised. New practices and procedures introduced. How many a and e services got shut down under Labour? Despite record funding? It wasn’t due to ‘cuts’ but reconfiguring services to meet growing demands.
    No, it was cut -- because the Treasury ruled it fell outside the ringfence.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 17,798
    Threat to fintech industry as young coders shun London over Brexit

    https://www.ft.com/content/7e7d4462-375f-11e8-8b98-2f31af407cc8
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 21,570
    While I'm sadly too busy to write about it right now, France is truly at a crossroads.

    Will Macron hold firm, or will he - like others before him - bend?

  • felixfelix Posts: 7,219
    rcs1000 said:

    While I'm sadly too busy to write about it right now, France is truly at a crossroads.

    Will Macron hold firm, or will he - like others before him - bend?

    He'll bend.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,149
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    So all the Spurs players will be leaving this summer.

    Looks like Daniel Levy has paid himself six million quid whilst having a strict wage structure on the players.

    What a hypocrite.

    Why a hypocrite?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,149
    Foxy said:

    As @AlastairMeeks is on holiday:

    I think we all know that Aaron Banks, Nigel Farage et al are rather unpleasant people.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,149
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    tyson said:

    Foxy said:

    tyson said:

    Foxy said:

    After the colonoscopy story on the last thread:

    Living into geriatric old age is seriously overrated.........
    Possibly, but 3 Score and ten is not so bad.
    Foxy...I cannot imagine any Doctor in the NHS who sees the pressures placed by the oldies, the hospital appointments, the check ups, the pressures on A & E, the pressure on their families... who doesn't share their views privately to their colleagues... Doctoring in geriatric care is not a vocation in any kind....

    Life its like going out for a few beers....you have fun for the first seven pints or so if you are lucky enough to be well....when you reach the 8th pint plus, the 9th, 10th...11th....you just want to throw up....
    Actually my wife and I are just grateful that we are able to contribute to our family though with much less energy and a little help from medicines.

    I would say that I have yearly check ups and 6 monthly blood tests, have had the bowel testing kits for some years, and neither my wife or I smoke or drink. Maybe being boring extends your life
    Nope. It just seems that way...

    (Is that my coat?)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 21,570
    felix said:

    rcs1000 said:

    While I'm sadly too busy to write about it right now, France is truly at a crossroads.

    Will Macron hold firm, or will he - like others before him - bend?

    He'll bend.
    When I met him three years ago, his conviction was that France's labour laws were the primary factor holding his country back. He held firm the first time around, and pushed through one set of reforms.

    This is a bigger set, and the push back from unions is commensurately greater.

    I think, while he might offer 'concessions', the core of the reforms will remain. For France's sake, I hope I'm right.
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