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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Why one ex-LAB member has decided to rejoin the party

SystemSystem Posts: 5,841
edited April 7 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Why one ex-LAB member has decided to rejoin the party

Has there been a more depressing time to be on the centre-left of British politics than now? The Labour party’s descent into institutionalised anti-Semitism is no huge surprise to those of us who have been watching the far-left for years, but the speed with which it has happened, the extent to which has occurred and the willingness of so many to ignore it have been shocking.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • felixfelix Posts: 7,239
    Is there a phrase about people rushing in where angels fear to tread? Now how does it start again?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 39,697
    edited April 7
    Given recent Labour leadership results you may have a while to wait before your fellow Labour members consider a more centrist alternative
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,219
    I would hope many thousands join you to begin a campaign from within to take back control of your party. I am not sure how long it will take but the thought of Corbyn leading this Country with access to our security intelligence backed up with the likes of McDonnell, Milne and Williamson is enough to cause great alarm for a great many
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 26,084
    Being a Labour member does not mean you have to vote Labour, fellow centre-leftists ;-)
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 1,754

    Being a Labour member does not mean you have to vote Labour, fellow centre-leftists ;-)

    Does it not? I would have thought it was the absolute bare minimum you'd need to do if you were sincere.
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,239

    Being a Labour member does not mean you have to vote Labour, fellow centre-leftists ;-)

    My comment was more in sorrow than owt else - happy to withdraw it :)
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 13,670
    For the sake of balance, Conservative membership is available from £25 (less for young members and those in the forces, I think).
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 13,670
    On topic, good luck to Joff. Stay in the game: at some point it will swing and when it does, it needs good people to drag Labour back to electability.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,480

    I would hope many thousands join you to begin a campaign from within to take back control of your party. I am not sure how long it will take but the thought of Corbyn leading this Country with access to our security intelligence backed up with the likes of McDonnell, Milne and Williamson is enough to cause great alarm for a great many

    Maybe if they only charged £3 for membership...

    What could possibly go wrong?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,480
    It will be interesting to see if the party you are rejoining has changed much from that you left last year. It will also be instructive to see how much crap gets flung your way for defying the Deity.

    Keep us posted!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 19,483
    I wish Joff well in his endeavours. It is in the national interest to have an electable Labour Party again. We need a choice.

    But it is a sad fact that Corbyn and his acolytes will use the renewed membership of those such as Joff to proclaim their success in building a mass movement of a party, they will use his money to promote their repulsive agenda and they feel emboldened rather than threatened.

    I can understand Joffs frustration. I don’t have a better solution.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 14,120
    I wish Joff all the luck in the world. But I'm afraid I think you are utterly deluded. By joining you will be actively paying for and campaigning for Corbyn - and those around him (many of whom are not Labour, never have been and never will be) - to be in No.10.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 41,952
    FPT: F1: pre-qualifying ramble:
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2018/04/bahrain-pre-qualifying-2018.html

    Edited extra bit: Mr. Sandpit, I think it's still worth backing, but you're right it'd be better if it were to start on pole.

    On-topic: good luck, Mr. Observer. What are you going to do if Corbyn's still in place with six months to go until a General Election, though?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,423
    Good luck Joff, at fighting the disease from the inside.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 14,120
    Meanwhile, thanks to Labour in 2018:

    A church of England vicar writes-



    Have we seen anything this bad since Mosely?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 9,632

    Being a Labour member does not mean you have to vote Labour, fellow centre-leftists ;-)

    Well being a Labour Party member does mean you have to say you are voting Labour or you will face expulsion.

    Of course the ballot box is a secret place.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 1,754
    I don't have the time myself, and I am not sure what party I would join if I did, but I think politics works better the more people are involved. So hearing about anyone joining up is good news.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 14,120
    edited April 7

    Being a Labour member does not mean you have to vote Labour, fellow centre-leftists ;-)

    Well being a Labour Party member does mean you have to say you are voting Labour or you will face expulsion.

    Of course the ballot box is a secret place.
    I dunno, half of Corbyn's kitchen cabinet seem to have spent the last decade or more urging people to vote Socialist Workers, Communist, Green etc etc.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 41,952
    Mr. Borough, isn't this worse? Mosley was never Leader of the Opposition, or even a frontbencher, was he?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 19,340
    Van drives into pedestrians in Germany

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43683687
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 14,120

    Mr. Borough, isn't this worse? Mosley was never Leader of the Opposition, or even a frontbencher, was he?

    iirc he was Minister of Labour or Shadow Minister of Labour at one point. That was before he went completely over the top bonkers and left Labour etc etc.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 7,754

    Meanwhile, thanks to Labour in 2018:

    A church of England vicar writes-



    Have we seen anything this bad since Mosely?

    There is a Jewish golf club up the road. It was founded because all the other golf clubs were full up whenever Jews wanted to join. So yes, we have seen anything this bad since Mosley.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 14,120
    Re: Mosley.

    I did some quick book reading.

    He was chancellor of duchy of lancaster with responsibility for employment after 1929 election.

    Colin Cross claims there is evidence he almost became Foreign Sec under MacDonald.

  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 5,271

    Meanwhile, thanks to Labour in 2018:

    A church of England vicar writes-



    Have we seen anything this bad since Mosely?

    There is a Jewish golf club up the road. It was founded because all the other golf clubs were full up whenever Jews wanted to join. So yes, we have seen anything this bad since Mosley.
    Let us not exaggerate: Mosley's antisemitism went significantly beyond blackballings at golf clubs.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 7,247
    ++ BETTING POST ++

    When will Theresa May cease to be Conservatives Leader? @ 1.62 is far too long (PP)

    Unless you think she will resign as PM and stay on as leader (e.g. loses an election) then it is the reverse of Betfair's "to leave in 2018" which is a much more sensible 3/1.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 7,754
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Meanwhile, thanks to Labour in 2018:

    A church of England vicar writes-



    Have we seen anything this bad since Mosely?

    There is a Jewish golf club up the road. It was founded because all the other golf clubs were full up whenever Jews wanted to join. So yes, we have seen anything this bad since Mosley.
    Let us not exaggerate: Mosley's antisemitism went significantly beyond blackballings at golf clubs.
    Since Mosley. Since. This was the 50s and 60s.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 19,340
    Mosley's a character I've read around a little (he was a supporting character, rather than the main one), but never read much directly about. How much did he believe in the sh*t he was saying, and how much was he just riding in the fascist wave that was sweeping through Europe?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 9,469

    Re: Mosley.

    I did some quick book reading.

    He was chancellor of duchy of lancaster with responsibility for employment after 1929 election.

    Colin Cross claims there is evidence he almost became Foreign Sec under MacDonald.

    He really didn't nearly become FS.

    However, he was tipped for promotion to the full cabinet very well quickly and widely thought of within Labour as a potential future leader.

    Even after he left, there were serious attempts to lure him back to take over from Lansbury.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,136
    Respect to you, sir.

    In my father's generation there was a similar battle within the Trades Unions. You are certainly associating with some purveyors of darkness, I'm afraid.

    On the other hand, a mass movement of courageous well-wishers like you might be enough to (eventually) tow Labour off the sandbank on which it's beached itself.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,423
    Mr Dancer’s bet on Raikkonen looking a little better...
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 7,754

    ++ BETTING POST ++

    When will Theresa May cease to be Conservatives Leader? @ 1.62 is far too long (PP)

    Unless you think she will resign as PM and stay on as leader (e.g. loses an election) then it is the reverse of Betfair's "to leave in 2018" which is a much more sensible 3/1.

    Is there a date missing from this post? 1.62 is far too long for what?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 9,469

    Mosley's a character I've read around a little (he was a supporting character, rather than the main one), but never read much directly about. How much did he believe in the sh*t he was saying, and how much was he just riding in the fascist wave that was sweeping through Europe?

    Can't answer for his postwar career, don't know enough about it (I know more about John Beckett).

    However Mosley's problem as a politician was he was always passionate and over-committed to everything he took up. That's why he left the Tories, why he walked out of Labour in a huff when his policies weren't instantly adopted, and why his new party lurched into Fascism as he became more disillusioned with democracy.

    It may also be seen in his, shall we say, energetic sex life.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 7,247

    ++ BETTING POST ++

    When will Theresa May cease to be Conservatives Leader? @ 1.62 is far too long (PP)

    Unless you think she will resign as PM and stay on as leader (e.g. loses an election) then it is the reverse of Betfair's "to leave in 2018" which is a much more sensible 3/1.

    Is there a date missing from this post? 1.62 is far too long for what?
    Yes, sorry "2019 or later"
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,423

    ++ BETTING POST ++

    When will Theresa May cease to be Conservatives Leader? @ 1.62 is far too long (PP)

    Unless you think she will resign as PM and stay on as leader (e.g. loses an election) then it is the reverse of Betfair's "to leave in 2018" which is a much more sensible 3/1.

    Is there a date missing from this post? 1.62 is far too long for what?
    Yes, sorry "2019 or later"
    When does it pay out though, on 1/1/19 or on the day she is no longer leader? Odds-on bets are crap if one has to wait several years to get paid out.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,695
    Not an easy choice, I imagine. Does rejoining provide opportunity to address the problems at some stage, or provide cover and succour to those causing the problems you want to address?

    Some will say that by joining I am helping to push Jeremy Corbyn closer to becoming Prime Minister. My response to that is that I am signing up because I do not believe a Labour party controlled by the far-left can ever win power – and I want a Labour government

    So you are saying you don't think Corbyn will win so long as he and the party retain a far left focus, so pissing within the tent provides opportunity to change the party, without risking the far left actually running the country? While pissing without doesn't help him become PM, but also means no hope of changing the party?

    Good luck I suppose. Better for everyone if you are successful.

    That such a staunch critic of Corbyn sees the best approach as to rejoin the party (even though Corbyn's people will see people joining the party as a personal endorsement of him), shows just how silly any talk of splits is.
  • DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 150

    Being a Labour member does not mean you have to vote Labour, fellow centre-leftists ;-)

    Joining a political party in order but not even wish to vote for their candidates is stinkingly dishonest. I've got my differences with some Labour candidates but once they are selected, then I've gone on the doorstep to campaign for all of them with all my heart. Joff, if you cannot say the same, please don't join the party.
  • William_HWilliam_H Posts: 299
    Its fairly silly to say that "the British electorate is smart enough never to put into power a party led by the far-left." when the party led by the "far-left" Is on 40% and came within a few percent of winning the last election
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,695

    Being a Labour member does not mean you have to vote Labour, fellow centre-leftists ;-)

    Careful now, the compliance unit will be after you right after joining!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,223
    I predicted about 6 months ago when you were on an anti-Corbyn rant you’d find an excuse to vote Labour. You’re as tribal as the rest of us my dear
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 3,840
    Welcome back
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 7,247
    Sandpit said:

    ++ BETTING POST ++

    When will Theresa May cease to be Conservatives Leader? @ 1.62 is far too long (PP)

    Unless you think she will resign as PM and stay on as leader (e.g. loses an election) then it is the reverse of Betfair's "to leave in 2018" which is a much more sensible 3/1.

    Is there a date missing from this post? 1.62 is far too long for what?
    Yes, sorry "2019 or later"
    When does it pay out though, on 1/1/19 or on the day she is no longer leader? Odds-on bets are crap if one has to wait several years to get paid out.
    I don't know how to find that information since PP redesigned their site.

    BUT, the bet was set up a while ago, so that it was 2017Q2 through to 2018Q4.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,695
    William_H said:

    Its fairly silly to say that "the British electorate is smart enough never to put into power a party led by the far-left." when the party led by the "far-left" Is on 40% and came within a few percent of winning the last election

    Quite so. A few percent in the right places - eg a bit bitter for SLAB than SCON - and things start to get very possible for a Lab coalition at the very least, and next time the government will have been in power for 12 long years, led by the gods only know whom.

    I would not begrudge Southam his choice, it's a hard one and perhaps it is the best approach for those of a like mind, but I don't think the public would have a problem putting a party led by the far left in power. If the appeal is strong enough, people won't consider that it is the far left they put in power, and probably don't think of it that way when the far right are gaining power.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 1,948
    edited April 7
    I must disagree with Joff’s decision.

    The moral sewer that is Corbyn and his acolytes will not lose control of the Labour Party by people like Joff joining. They will be bolstered, as they see more people rallying to their banner.

    The only way to defeat Corbynism is on the electoral battlefield. The Conservative Party is the only organisation capable of doing so. Only then will the Labour Party consider a new approach.

    I’m also dubious about the morality of joining a party without the intention to vote for its candidates.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 980
    As Macron has shown in France, it is just not true that the Labour Party is the only possible alternative to the Conservatives. And even if it was, you don't help the centre-left by paying membership dues to the party that helps the far left get elected. Especially when the conservatives are committed to anti-racism and the democratic alliance under a moderate leader.
  • EMIEMI Posts: 2
    A tissue of unreal wish fulfilment. The war has already been well won. Waste of time.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 9,683
    Respect to anyone who actually gets involved, rather than just carp from their armchair or saloon bar.

    But the battle Joff is (re)joining is not the one against the Tories, but the ongoing civil war within Labour. Joining the weaker side in an internal struggle will most likely serve to prolong the agony. Meanwhile Labour remains the biggest obstacle to decent government in the country, and the change to a fairer more open political system remains as faraway as ever.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 3,840

    Being a Labour member does not mean you have to vote Labour, fellow centre-leftists ;-)

    Given that most of the MPs are closer in politics to you than Corbyn - why wouldn't you vote Labour?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,695
    edited April 7
    DM_Andy said:

    Being a Labour member does not mean you have to vote Labour, fellow centre-leftists ;-)

    Joining a political party in order but not even wish to vote for their candidates is stinkingly dishonest. I've got my differences with some Labour candidates but once they are selected, then I've gone on the doorstep to campaign for all of them with all my heart. Joff, if you cannot say the same, please don't join the party.
    Given that all parties are coalitions, as Labour's ructions have in particular show lately and the Tories are hardly immune to, speaking as a non-party member I don't see why it should be so hard not to back specific candidates within the same party. Did Corbyn have a problem not supporting his own Labour Prime Ministers whenever it clashed with his own personal values? Surely not. His support for the party was qualified by the things he personally considered more important. Cannot someone else support the general feeling of the party's centre-left approach while taking it a step farther and not voting for specific candidates? So long as they don't advocate people vote for another party, but rather stay at home, is it even a breach of party member honesty? It'd just be not putting their all in for those who do not deserve it.

    The party system has many issues but an amount of general support for one or the other is not unreasonable, but personal merit surely has to come into at some point? Otherwise people really are supposed to vote for the proverbial donkey with the right coloured rosette.

    Even for party members it seems there must be a point at which supporting any old duffer put up as a candidate does not help the wider movement, or the direction of that movement. Loyalty to a brand can be worth it, to be sure, for the wider benefits, but is it really a virtue to support any candidates merely once they are selected? As we see with local councillors in particular, parties have no trouble selecting some right idiots sometimes. That isn't even a uniquely Labour issue.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 980

    Meanwhile, thanks to Labour in 2018:

    A church of England vicar writes-



    Have we seen anything this bad since Mosely?

    That is really damning. I would like to say to any British Jews reading this that Corbyn and his rabid far left faction are a minority of a minority in the UK. The majority of us stand with you and will continue to do so.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,136
    RoyalBlue said:

    I must disagree with Joff’s decision.

    The moral sewer that is Corbyn and his acolytes will not lose control of the Labour Party by people like Joff joining. They will be bolstered, as they see more people rallying to their banner.

    The only way to defeat Corbynism is on the electoral battlefield. The Conservative Party is the only organisation capable of doing so. Only then will the Labour Party consider a new approach.

    I’m also dubious about the morality of joining a party without the intention to vote for its candidates.

    It's an interesting counterpoint to @AlastairMeeks' argument about those who make common cause with elements they can't agree with.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 980
    rkrkrk said:

    Being a Labour member does not mean you have to vote Labour, fellow centre-leftists ;-)

    Given that most of the MPs are closer in politics to you than Corbyn - why wouldn't you vote Labour?
    Because those MPs are spineless and will back Corbyn to be PM.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,695
    EMI said:

    The war has already been well won

    A campaign of guerilla unrest to be undetaken then, I guess.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,695
    Elliot said:

    As Macron has shown in France, it is just not true that the Labour Party is the only possible alternative to the Conservatives.

    I don't know that the situations are directly comparable like that, even though I would agree with the basic point. There are alternatives, but others are a lot harder and risker for individuals and parties to try. But if you do not fear a Tory government (even if you do not want one), taking that riskier step is I would think not as terrifying as it could be.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 1,948
    Elliot said:

    As Macron has shown in France, it is just not true that the Labour Party is the only possible alternative to the Conservatives. And even if it was, you don't help the centre-left by paying membership dues to the party that helps the far left get elected. Especially when the conservatives are committed to anti-racism and the democratic alliance under a moderate leader.

    I think you’ll find that our strong and stable (trademark) party system and FPTP electoral system rule out anything like the Macron phenomenon in this country.

    Otherwise I agree 100% :smile:
  • EMIEMI Posts: 2
    AnneJGP said:

    Respect to you, sir.

    In my father's generation there was a similar battle within the Trades Unions. You are certainly associating with some purveyors of darkness, I'm afraid.

    On the other hand, a mass movement of courageous well-wishers like you might be enough to (eventually) tow Labour off the sandbank on which it's beached itself.

    Complete fantasy analysis. Rest - wishful thinking. Ain't gonna happen. JC has won. Get over it.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 14,120
    Elliot said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Being a Labour member does not mean you have to vote Labour, fellow centre-leftists ;-)

    Given that most of the MPs are closer in politics to you than Corbyn - why wouldn't you vote Labour?
    Because those MPs are spineless and will back Corbyn to be PM.
    Precisely.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,136
    EMI said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Respect to you, sir.

    In my father's generation there was a similar battle within the Trades Unions. You are certainly associating with some purveyors of darkness, I'm afraid.

    On the other hand, a mass movement of courageous well-wishers like you might be enough to (eventually) tow Labour off the sandbank on which it's beached itself.

    Complete fantasy analysis. Rest - wishful thinking. Ain't gonna happen. JC has won. Get over it.
    Indeed, I believe he has. I think we will have Mr Corbyn as PM fairly soon. I think Jewish people are wise to start making arrangements. I am devastated that it has come to this.

    It seems incredible but there is no point in ducking facts.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 14,120
    Elliot said:

    Meanwhile, thanks to Labour in 2018:

    A church of England vicar writes-



    Have we seen anything this bad since Mosely?

    That is really damning. I would like to say to any British Jews reading this that Corbyn and his rabid far left faction are a minority of a minority in the UK. The majority of us stand with you and will continue to do so.
    :+1:
  • DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 150
    kle4 said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Being a Labour member does not mean you have to vote Labour, fellow centre-leftists ;-)

    Joining a political party in order but not even wish to vote for their candidates is stinkingly dishonest. I've got my differences with some Labour candidates but once they are selected, then I've gone on the doorstep to campaign for all of them with all my heart. Joff, if you cannot say the same, please don't join the party.
    Given that all parties are coalitions, as Labour's ructions have in particular show lately and the Tories are hardly immune to, speaking as a non-party member I don't see why it should be so hard not to back specific candidates within the same party. Did Corbyn have a problem not supporting his own Labour Prime Ministers whenever it clashed with his own personal values? Surely not. His support for the party was qualified by the things he personally considered more important. Cannot someone else support the general feeling of the party's centre-left approach while taking it a step farther and not voting for specific candidates? So long as they don't advocate people vote for another party, but rather stay at home, is it even a breach of party member honesty? It'd just be not putting their all in for those who do not deserve it.

    The party system has many issues but an amount of general support for one or the other is not unreasonable, but personal merit surely has to come into at some point? Otherwise people really are supposed to vote for the proverbial donkey with the right coloured rosette.
    I have sympathy for that point of view and there have been some candidates that I can imagine I would have had difficulty with (George Galloway for example). Maybe in those exceptional circumstances maybe I wouldn't have worked for their election. But to join the party to harm it from the inside seems wrong to me.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,695
    DM_Andy said:

    kle4 said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Being a Labour member does not mean you have to vote Labour, fellow centre-leftists ;-)

    Joining a political party in order but not even wish to vote for their candidates is stinkingly dishonest. I've got my differences with some Labour candidates but once they are selected, then I've gone on the doorstep to campaign for all of them with all my heart. Joff, if you cannot say the same, please don't join the party.
    Given that all parties are coalitions, as Labour's ructions have in particular show lately and the Tories are hardly immune to, speaking as a non-party member I don't see why it should be so hard not to back specific candidates within the same party. Did Corbyn have a problem not supporting his own Labour Prime Ministers whenever it clashed with his own personal values? Surely not. His support for the party was qualified by the things he personally considered more important. Cannot someone else support the general feeling of the party's centre-left approach while taking it a step farther and not voting for specific candidates? So long as they don't advocate people vote for another party, but rather stay at home, is it even a breach of party member honesty? It'd just be not putting their all in for those who do not deserve it.

    The party system has many issues but an amount of general support for one or the other is not unreasonable, but personal merit surely has to come into at some point? Otherwise people really are supposed to vote for the proverbial donkey with the right coloured rosette.
    I have sympathy for that point of view and there have been some candidates that I can imagine I would have had difficulty with (George Galloway for example). Maybe in those exceptional circumstances maybe I wouldn't have worked for their election. But to join the party to harm it from the inside seems wrong to me.
    Perhaps - I can imagine plenty of party members thinking along the same lines. But others might consider that he is not harming them by being selective in support, if they think Corbyn and co will, in the long term, do more harm. Not an easy situation.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,136
    Elliot said:

    Meanwhile, thanks to Labour in 2018:

    A church of England vicar writes-



    Have we seen anything this bad since Mosely?

    That is really damning. I would like to say to any British Jews reading this that Corbyn and his rabid far left faction are a minority of a minority in the UK. The majority of us stand with you and will continue to do so.
    I would hope that we do.

    The trouble is that so few people pay attention to what is actually happening.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 14,440
    Whilst I could never support the Labour party with or without Corbyn at the helm, I do think we need a credible and effective opposition.

    For the sake of the country I hope SO is successful although I fear he is fighting a lost cause at present.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,423
    Well done Mr Dancer, for his each-way tip on the previous thread.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 14,440
    Elliot said:

    Meanwhile, thanks to Labour in 2018:

    A church of England vicar writes-



    Have we seen anything this bad since Mosely?

    That is really damning. I would like to say to any British Jews reading this that Corbyn and his rabid far left faction are a minority of a minority in the UK. The majority of us stand with you and will continue to do so.
    Absolutely. Just as I would say the same about the Far Right and British Muslims.

    Britain should be a country of tolerance. The Far Left and the Far Right would both drag us away from this and need to be opposed. Which is why SO is absolutely right in his stand.
  • If voting to Leave the EU means you become the bed fellow of xenophobic, jack boot wearing, racist little Englanders, what do you become when you join the Labour party?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 1,925
    Welcome back Joff. Plenty of non-Loons in the party still, you will be valued
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 14,120
    ydoethur said:

    Re: Mosley.

    I did some quick book reading.

    He was chancellor of duchy of lancaster with responsibility for employment after 1929 election.

    Colin Cross claims there is evidence he almost became Foreign Sec under MacDonald.

    He really didn't nearly become FS.

    However, he was tipped for promotion to the full cabinet very well quickly and widely thought of within Labour as a potential future leader.

    Even after he left, there were serious attempts to lure him back to take over from Lansbury.
    I defer to your historical knowledge. The FS claim comes from a letter from Laski. Looking at the detail it seems it is considered an "unsupported" claim. Indeed, Cross notes Laski's fondness for "imagined detail".
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,136
    DM_Andy said:

    kle4 said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Being a Labour member does not mean you have to vote Labour, fellow centre-leftists ;-)

    Joining a political party in order but not even wish to vote for their candidates is stinkingly dishonest. I've got my differences with some Labour candidates but once they are selected, then I've gone on the doorstep to campaign for all of them with all my heart. Joff, if you cannot say the same, please don't join the party.
    Given that all parties are coalitions, as Labour's ructions have in particular show lately and the Tories are hardly immune to, speaking as a non-party member I don't see why it should be so hard not to back specific candidates within the same party. Did Corbyn have a problem not supporting his own Labour Prime Ministers whenever it clashed with his own personal values? Surely not. His support for the party was qualified by the things he personally considered more important. Cannot someone else support the general feeling of the party's centre-left approach while taking it a step farther and not voting for specific candidates? So long as they don't advocate people vote for another party, but rather stay at home, is it even a breach of party member honesty? It'd just be not putting their all in for those who do not deserve it.

    The party system has many issues but an amount of general support for one or the other is not unreasonable, but personal merit surely has to come into at some point? Otherwise people really are supposed to vote for the proverbial donkey with the right coloured rosette.
    I have sympathy for that point of view and there have been some candidates that I can imagine I would have had difficulty with (George Galloway for example). Maybe in those exceptional circumstances maybe I wouldn't have worked for their election. But to join the party to harm it from the inside seems wrong to me.
    This is like the EU situation all over again. Harming the party from the inside is the very opposite of what Joff is aiming at. He believes the harm that Mr Corbyn & his supporters have already inflicted on the party is in need of, and capable of, remedy from inside.

    What you presumably see as an attempt to maim, Joff presumably sees as an attempt at surgery.
  • tysontyson Posts: 4,350

    Welcome back Joff. Plenty of non-Loons in the party still, you will be valued


    Seconded.....I'm still with the Labour Party through thick and thin.....

    On the anti Semite thing Joff, do you not think the right are ramping it ever so slightly for political mileage....?

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 26,084

    Welcome back Joff. Plenty of non-Loons in the party still, you will be valued

    Cheers.

    My aim is not to maim the Labour party, it is to play a role - no matter how small - in making it electable again. The country needs a credible alternative and it doesn’t have one at the moment.

  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 6,816
    EMI said:

    A tissue of unreal wish fulfilment. The war has already been well won. Waste of time.

    Yes, I think this is the case. Moderates biggest issue, is that they don’t seem to have a large constituency for their politics in either the Labour Party nor among the wider electorate either. They need to convince both groups that they have a vision which can solve the big issues of the day. So far, I don’t see any sign that moderates realise that.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,695
    tyson said:

    Welcome back Joff. Plenty of non-Loons in the party still, you will be valued


    Seconded.....I'm still with the Labour Party through thick and thin.....

    On the anti Semite thing Joff, do you not think the right are ramping it ever so slightly for political mileage....?

    Not addressed to me, but does it really matter if they are? A serious issue has been accepted by the party, so even if their opponents want to make even more of it than is the case, the reaction needs to be the same.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 26,084
    AnneJGP said:

    Respect to you, sir.

    In my father's generation there was a similar battle within the Trades Unions. You are certainly associating with some purveyors of darkness, I'm afraid.

    On the other hand, a mass movement of courageous well-wishers like you might be enough to (eventually) tow Labour off the sandbank on which it's beached itself.

    Thank-you!!

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,695
    Indeed. The idea it would be impossible for somebody to screw up and therefore it cannot be them is patently absurd. Even if it really wasn't them!
  • DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 150

    Welcome back Joff. Plenty of non-Loons in the party still, you will be valued

    Cheers.

    My aim is not to maim the Labour party, it is to play a role - no matter how small - in making it electable again. The country needs a credible alternative and it doesn’t have one at the moment.

    As Mike Smithson regularly says, the public doesn't vote for divided parties. You want to make the civil war worse. How is that going to help the Labour Party form a government?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 26,084

    Elliot said:

    Meanwhile, thanks to Labour in 2018:

    A church of England vicar writes-



    Have we seen anything this bad since Mosely?

    That is really damning. I would like to say to any British Jews reading this that Corbyn and his rabid far left faction are a minority of a minority in the UK. The majority of us stand with you and will continue to do so.
    Absolutely. Just as I would say the same about the Far Right and British Muslims.

    Britain should be a country of tolerance. The Far Left and the Far Right would both drag us away from this and need to be opposed. Which is why SO is absolutely right in his stand.

    Thanks Richard!

  • ElliotElliot Posts: 980
    RoyalBlue said:

    Elliot said:

    As Macron has shown in France, it is just not true that the Labour Party is the only possible alternative to the Conservatives. And even if it was, you don't help the centre-left by paying membership dues to the party that helps the far left get elected. Especially when the conservatives are committed to anti-racism and the democratic alliance under a moderate leader.

    I think you’ll find that our strong and stable (trademark) party system and FPTP electoral system rule out anything like the Macron phenomenon in this country.

    Otherwise I agree 100% :smile:
    They would have said the same in France til recently.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,725

    Welcome back Joff. Plenty of non-Loons in the party still, you will be valued

    Cheers.

    My aim is not to maim the Labour party, it is to play a role - no matter how small - in making it electable again. The country needs a credible alternative and it doesn’t have one at the moment.

    You have written from the heart. But you are on a fool’s errand, I’m afraid. Your money will be used by the current Labour party led by Corbyn et al to try and win power. Your joining will be taken by them as support for everything they are now doing and not doing, even the stuff you dislike. I like your posts and share your wish for a viable liberal social democratic opposition. But much as it may hurt you to hear this you will be treated by the current leadership as a useful idiot.

    Still, good luck and let us know how you get on.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 41,952
    Mr. Sandpit, cheers. Mildly green, and a shame it didn't win outright, but still nice to have my first winning tip of the F1 year.

  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 6,816
    edited April 7
    kle4 said:

    Indeed. The idea it would be impossible for somebody to screw up and therefore it cannot be them is patently absurd. Even if it really wasn't them!
    David Schneider also supports Corbyn, so hopefully him saying this can put some sense into the Corbynista conspiracist theorists on the far left who don’t think Russia did it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,695
    DM_Andy said:

    Welcome back Joff. Plenty of non-Loons in the party still, you will be valued

    Cheers.

    My aim is not to maim the Labour party, it is to play a role - no matter how small - in making it electable again. The country needs a credible alternative and it doesn’t have one at the moment.

    As Mike Smithson regularly says, the public doesn't vote for divided parties.
    Is Mike right about that though? Labour were pretty darn divided and made progressin 2017, even though they still lost, and are far less divided now (antisemitism row notwithstanding, and which will die down soon enough).
  • JackWJackW Posts: 13,195

    Welcome back Joff. Plenty of non-Loons in the party still, you will be valued

    So the majority of Labour party members are loons !! .. :smile:
  • DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 150
    AnneJGP said:

    In my father's generation there was a similar battle within the Trades Unions. You are certainly associating with some purveyors of darkness, I'm afraid.

    RoyalBlue said:

    The moral sewer that is Corbyn and his acolytes will not lose control of the Labour Party by people like Joff joining. They will be bolstered, as they see more people rallying to their banner.

    Thank you Anne and Royal for calling me and other members of the Labour Party such lovely names as "purveyors of darkness" and "moral sewer". It's heartening that PB is so welcoming to all political views.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 10,769
    Joff Vs Jezz - And this time it's personal! :smiley:
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,695

    kle4 said:

    Indeed. The idea it would be impossible for somebody to screw up and therefore it cannot be them is patently absurd. Even if it really wasn't them!
    David Schneider also supports Corbyn, so hopefully him saying this can put some sense into the Corbynista conspiracist theorists on the far left who don’t think Russia did it.
    Which is all the more surprising given Corbyn's official position is, I believe, that he accepts that is was highly likely to be Russia, he is just wanting to be more cautious in response (this depends on whether one is criticising the government for being too harsh in response, or arguing the actions taken amount to little). I suppose it is not unheard of elsewhere, but it still surprises me when people can be so vehemently pro-somebody, even as they themselves take a different line to that person.
  • DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 150
    kle4 said:

    Is Mike right about that though? Labour were pretty darn divided and made progressin 2017, even though they still lost, and are far less divided now (antisemitism row notwithstanding, and which will die down soon enough).

    I think it's a reasonable assumption that if Labour had been united it might have done a little bit better in 2017, also it can be argued that the Tories weren't exactly singing from a single hymnsheet in the same election.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,695
    As A Liverpool fan I am no fan of Sterling anymore, but the refs are being pretty ridiculous on him and regarding fouls on him so far in the derby,
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 5,271
    DM_Andy said:

    AnneJGP said:

    In my father's generation there was a similar battle within the Trades Unions. You are certainly associating with some purveyors of darkness, I'm afraid.

    RoyalBlue said:

    The moral sewer that is Corbyn and his acolytes will not lose control of the Labour Party by people like Joff joining. They will be bolstered, as they see more people rallying to their banner.

    Thank you Anne and Royal for calling me and other members of the Labour Party such lovely names as "purveyors of darkness" and "moral sewer". It's heartening that PB is so welcoming to all political views.
    Both expressions are used as metaphors for antisemitism. Would you feel happier if PB welcomed antisemites?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,695
    DM_Andy said:

    kle4 said:

    Is Mike right about that though? Labour were pretty darn divided and made progressin 2017, even though they still lost, and are far less divided now (antisemitism row notwithstanding, and which will die down soon enough).

    I think it's a reasonable assumption that if Labour had been united it might have done a little bit better in 2017, also it can be argued that the Tories weren't exactly singing from a single hymnsheet in the same election.

    It seems a reasonable assumption, but given how divided Labour were it is not as though most thought they would get anywhere near where they did, so even if it is a reasonable assumption, its impact might not be as great as imagined.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,136
    DM_Andy said:

    AnneJGP said:

    In my father's generation there was a similar battle within the Trades Unions. You are certainly associating with some purveyors of darkness, I'm afraid.

    RoyalBlue said:

    The moral sewer that is Corbyn and his acolytes will not lose control of the Labour Party by people like Joff joining. They will be bolstered, as they see more people rallying to their banner.

    Thank you Anne and Royal for calling me and other members of the Labour Party such lovely names as "purveyors of darkness" and "moral sewer". It's heartening that PB is so welcoming to all political views.
    I know nothing about you and never move from the general to the particular in that way. For your information, I voted Leave, so I too read a lot of adverse criticism of my views on this board.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 26,084
    Cyclefree said:

    Welcome back Joff. Plenty of non-Loons in the party still, you will be valued

    Cheers.

    My aim is not to maim the Labour party, it is to play a role - no matter how small - in making it electable again. The country needs a credible alternative and it doesn’t have one at the moment.

    You have written from the heart. But you are on a fool’s errand, I’m afraid. Your money will be used by the current Labour party led by Corbyn et al to try and win power. Your joining will be taken by them as support for everything they are now doing and not doing, even the stuff you dislike. I like your posts and share your wish for a viable liberal social democratic opposition. But much as it may hurt you to hear this you will be treated by the current leadership as a useful idiot.

    Still, good luck and let us know how you get on.

    That is all possible. But I start from the premise that a Labour party led by the far-left cannot win power. There are four years until the next general election. There are a lot of internal elections berween now and then. I have a vote in all of them. Anyone else who joins Labour does as well.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,695
    DM_Andy said:

    AnneJGP said:

    In my father's generation there was a similar battle within the Trades Unions. You are certainly associating with some purveyors of darkness, I'm afraid.

    RoyalBlue said:

    The moral sewer that is Corbyn and his acolytes will not lose control of the Labour Party by people like Joff joining. They will be bolstered, as they see more people rallying to their banner.

    Thank you Anne and Royal for calling me and other members of the Labour Party such lovely names as "purveyors of darkness" and "moral sewer". It's heartening that PB is so welcoming to all political views.
    Welcoming, not embracing, perhaps.

    Don't worry - in the end, everyone is a PB Tory. It might take years, but eventually they all go blue, even if only once.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 6,816
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Indeed. The idea it would be impossible for somebody to screw up and therefore it cannot be them is patently absurd. Even if it really wasn't them!
    David Schneider also supports Corbyn, so hopefully him saying this can put some sense into the Corbynista conspiracist theorists on the far left who don’t think Russia did it.
    Which is all the more surprising given Corbyn's official position is, I believe, that he accepts that is was highly likely to be Russia, he is just wanting to be more cautious in response (this depends on whether one is criticising the government for being too harsh in response, or arguing the actions taken amount to little). I suppose it is not unheard of elsewhere, but it still surprises me when people can be so vehemently pro-somebody, even as they themselves take a different line to that person.
    Yep, I used to think Corbyn’s hardcore supporters followed his line no matter what, now I think they are actually more extreme than him. I think they actually want him to take a more radical line on issues.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 43,090
    To be honest when you join a political party the first thing that happens is you get tapped up for some good old delivery" :)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 29,695

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Indeed. The idea it would be impossible for somebody to screw up and therefore it cannot be them is patently absurd. Even if it really wasn't them!
    David Schneider also supports Corbyn, so hopefully him saying this can put some sense into the Corbynista conspiracist theorists on the far left who don’t think Russia did it.
    Which is all the more surprising given Corbyn's official position is, I believe, that he accepts that is was highly likely to be Russia, he is just wanting to be more cautious in response (this depends on whether one is criticising the government for being too harsh in response, or arguing the actions taken amount to little). I suppose it is not unheard of elsewhere, but it still surprises me when people can be so vehemently pro-somebody, even as they themselves take a different line to that person.
    Yep, I used to think Corbyn’s hardcore supporters followed his line no matter what, now I think they are actually more extreme than him. I think they actually want him to take a more radical line on issues.
    Sobering thought indeed.

    Has it really been 2.5 years with him as Leader? What times we have had.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 26,084
    tyson said:

    Welcome back Joff. Plenty of non-Loons in the party still, you will be valued


    Seconded.....I'm still with the Labour Party through thick and thin.....

    On the anti Semite thing Joff, do you not think the right are ramping it ever so slightly for political mileage....?

    Of course they are - and rightly so. The far-left’s tolerance of anti-Semitism gives free rein to people who have been dogwhistling to racists, bigots and xenophobes for years to take the moral high ground. Not only is the anti-Semitism inside Labour morally repugnant, it is also politically destructive.

  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,725
    DM_Andy said:

    AnneJGP said:

    In my father's generation there was a similar battle within the Trades Unions. You are certainly associating with some purveyors of darkness, I'm afraid.

    RoyalBlue said:

    The moral sewer that is Corbyn and his acolytes will not lose control of the Labour Party by people like Joff joining. They will be bolstered, as they see more people rallying to their banner.

    Thank you Anne and Royal for calling me and other members of the Labour Party such lovely names as "purveyors of darkness" and "moral sewer". It's heartening that PB is so welcoming to all political views.
    Don’t play the victim. Anne used the word “some” and RoyalBlue talked about Corbyn and his acolytes being the “moral sewer”. Neither said that all Labour party members were like that but if you stay in a party with such issues and turn a blind eye or downplay or fail to speak up then, however good you may be, you too bear some responsibility.

    Burke’s “ For evil to triumph, all it takes is for good men to do nothing” is apposite.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 13,195
    kle4 said:

    As A Liverpool fan I am no fan of Sterling anymore, but the refs are being pretty ridiculous on him and regarding fouls on him so far in the derby,

    I've no sympathy. Cheating is rife in football, as is the feigning of injury and the match long attempts to dupe referees.
This discussion has been closed.