Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It has been working class voters who have been the main dri

245

Comments

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 17,313
    Plato said:

    Grandiose said:

    @Plato

    Surely allowing a fellow human to take their own life even when incarcerated is the sign of respect for the ultimate sacrifice and personal decision.
    Most people will have a 'gut feeling' as to whether the right to die is a right at all and one's instincts as to suicide are almost immovable from that feeling.

    Personally, I ask myself, if I pull someone out from in front of a train, would they have a right to be angry with me? I think not; I do not accept one's right to die and would stop all men from doing so if I could. If prisoners are said to differ, then the cost of housing them is offset against the knowledge that they are in prison and not, as many people who commit suicide see it, free from their problems.*

    *I am loathe to make generalisations, but I am confident this one is true in most cases.
    As someone who's known a few people who've contemplated suicide very seriously and done it, the aftermath of those who experienced it as family, the various reasons for it - its very hard to be black and white about it.

    I've seen it used as the ultimate punishment by a hen-pecked husband against his wife who made his life a misery, by children who felt it was their destiny because their dad did it, destroyed a young wife who felt she'd not seen it coming and blamed herself because her new husband did it and never forgave herself and was ashamed.

    These are very different from someone who is in jail for killing several people on purpose and knowing that the rest of their days will be an endless terror of being buggered in the showers, stabbed with a sharpened toothbrush or whatever. I personally think that being terrorised by fellow inmates must be the ultimate hell with no escape bar suicide. I'd never stop anyone from making that final and rational decision.

    If we don't own our own lives - who does?

    We don't own our own lives: you highlight the relationships with other people as one factor. Suicide is one of the most contemptuous statements of arrogance and selfishness.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 12,328
    peterbuss said:

    Sorry about my recent post.All but the last 3 sentences were quote from a previous poster. To clarify I don;t think the BBC or sky or ITV could go ahead with any debate of Party leaders if say the PM refused to take part.It would break the ofcom rules.What Sky did in 2010 in threatening tio leave an empty chair was a gigantic piece of bluff.They wouldn't get away with it this time.

    They should be ok provided that they've offered a fair platform. It's not bias if one side chooses not to participate.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 11,616

    "A quick google finds sky using that very term."

    ...in 2009. By the time the actual debate was held they'd come to their senses.

    Here's the BBC using it in 2010:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8589502.stm

    In fact they used it on the day of the debates:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/8624100.stm

    You can make up your "woe is me its all about the SNP" schtick but most of the country doesn't even consider the SNP with its 1% of Westminster seats at the General Election.

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 17,008
    Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the matter, if David Cameron is willing to appear in a Prime Ministerial debate without Nigel Farage and unwilling to appear in a Prime Ministerial debate with Nigel Farage, which of these line-ups is more likely to appeal to the TV stations?

    1) David Cameron, Ed Miliband, Nick Clegg
    2) Ed Miliband, Nick Clegg, Nigel Farage

    Call me old-fashioned, but I have a hunch they'd prefer the one with the current Prime Minister.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 17,313
    tim said:

    @Charles

    The fall is down to a rise in emigration and a fall in student numbers.
    If you want to see that as success then you have some strange policy objectives.

    Thats how the govt has got back to just under 2009 levels.

    Immigration down 74,000. Emigration up 10,000, so we can ignore that as MoE.

    Student numbers yes: this was one of the biggest areas of abuse of the system.

    There is a difference between qualified students coming to study at validated universities (I've mentioned before I am on the F&P committee for one, and have a standing invite to join the Council of another) and the kind of backstreet "colleges" that flourished under the last government.

    The former is great, the latter is negative.

    As always, you need to look beneath the top level statistics to figure out whether something is good or not.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited May 2013
    Mr Kellner injects much commonsense that no doubt will be ignored by 99% of the media coverage.

    "In our poll, Labour enjoys an 8% lead over the Conservatives across Britain as a whole; but in the areas holding local elections, the Tories lead by 7%. Any attempt to project the raw results to Great Britain as a whole must allow for this bias.

    Moreover, while Labour and the Conservatives are fielding candidates almost everywhere, UKIP and Liberal Democrat candidates are standing in roughly three-quarters of the wards. How should we allow for this? To count their support as zero where they have no candidates seems too harsh. On the other hand, to count only the wards where they stand would be too generous, for they are likely to field many of their candidates where they think they have most support..."
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited May 2013
    Here it comes for the second day running...

    Pleased to see that I am no longer a lone voice howling in the wilderness of disbelievers and that DavidL had brought PBers attention to the good news today on UK construction PMIs.

    UK construction registered its highest level for half a year in April, data from Markit revealed Thursday.

    The Purchasing Managers' Index (PMI) climbed to 49.4, beating expectations of 48.0, and up from 47.2 in March. A level of 50 separates growth from contraction.

    Tim Moore, a Senior Economist at Markit, said: "The overall survey findings are an early indication that construction will act as less of a drag on UK GDP over the second quarter of 2013."


    In fact the news was a little bit more mixed than the headlines proclaim as commercial and civil engineering activity continued to decline.

    What is new is that this decline was now offset by an increase in residential construction.

    Will there be any houses left to build in 2015? tim and Ed Miliband are running out of time and ideas.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 3,845

    Well, this is a very nice surprise. On logging in to my Ladbrokes account, the balance was a lot higher than I was expecting, and here's why:

    Transport Specials: What will happen first? Bet placed 2011-07-10
    Highspeed rail expansion Birmingham @ 26.00: Win


    I can't now remember what the other options were, but, whatever they were, it's jolly decent of Ladbrokes to have settled so early.

    Other options:
    - Labour having a policy
    - LibDems honour a pledge
    - Eurozone recovers
    - Triple dip recession
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792

    "A quick google finds sky using that very term."

    ...in 2009. By the time the actual debate was held they'd come to their senses.

    Here's the BBC using it in 2010:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8589502.stm

    In fact they used it on the day of the debates:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/8624100.stm

    You can make up your "woe is me its all about the SNP" schtick but most of the country doesn't even consider the SNP with its 1% of Westminster seats at the General Election.



    Kelly will move on , it's in his blood . Hopefully soon.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    Small piece of advice, Philip - it might be an idea to actually read my posts before trying (and failing) to rubbish them. The whole point I was making was that the BBC, and only the BBC, referred to their debate as a 'Prime Ministerial Debate'. ITV and Sky used more accurate terms.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 25,052
    antifrank said:

    Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the matter, if David Cameron is willing to appear in a Prime Ministerial debate without Nigel Farage and unwilling to appear in a Prime Ministerial debate with Nigel Farage, which of these line-ups is more likely to appeal to the TV stations?

    1) David Cameron, Ed Miliband, Nick Clegg
    2) Ed Miliband, Nick Clegg, Nigel Farage

    Call me old-fashioned, but I have a hunch they'd prefer the one with the current Prime Minister.

    I would love it if tim featured in one of those debates!
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    tim said:

    @RichardNabavi

    Were you on that "Boris Island NOT to be sanctioned this year" from Jan 2012 at 6/1?
    That hasn't been settled

    Yes I was. It was settled as a win on my account on the 30th Jan.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Suicide is one of the most contemptuous statements of arrogance and selfishness.

    That's a very sweeping statement.

    Some people who want to commit suicide reckon those around them would be much happier and better off if they weren't around. I am not sure they are wrong in every case.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,514

    corporeal said:

    corporeal said:

    Socrates said:

    "A Ukip win would lend weight to Farage’s demands to be included in the TV debates at the general election. This is a thought that fills the Tories with horror. When I asked one confidant of the Prime Minister if Cameron would take part if Ukip was included, the response was simple: ‘God, no.’"

    They really can be inept with regards to political strategy, can't they? Nick Clegg, Ed Miliband and Nigel Farage attacking the Tories from all side with no rebutting of their points. Genius.

    If faced with choosing between Cameron or Farage to have on, the tv channels will tell Farage he'll have to watch it on tv.
    I'm not convinced by that. If UKIP have outpolled the Lib Dems for 2-3 years leading into 2015, it's very difficult to see how it's anything other than both or neither. Since it would be almost impossible not to invite the Deputy Prime Minister and leader of a party which had over 50 seats going into the election, UKIP would have to have an invite.

    Every party leader knows that they'll lose horribly if they refuse to participate because the rest will simply aim to knock the ball into that empty net. As long as a majority of the others are up for it, they'll have to join in too.

    The crucial step last time was Sky essentially saying "we will provide a platform for these debates. You are invited and welcome to come but we will go ahead whether you do or not". That set the ball rolling and ensured the Beeb and ITV jumped on board too. As long as one of the broadcasters says the same again, the debates will take place and as things stand, Farage will be there - and so will the other three.
    It's very easy to see it. While there weren't specific debates the poll ratings of the alliance in the 80s didn't get them the media status that'd compare to them. Results matter a lot, polling very little. OFCOM will still define UKIP as a minor party for general elections etc.

    The crucial step last time was all sides had an incentive which hadn't happened before for a while, that got things moving initially. The TV stations want to get this enshrined as a regular part of elections not a one-off. Farage'll be grumbling from the sidelines.
    Results do indeed matter, which is presumably why UKIP has gone all-out to stand in as many local council elections today as possible. In parliamentary elections, their record is superior to the Lib Dems this parliament overall in net terms, and by most measures, in gross terms. Pretty much everyone expects UKIP to outpoll the Lib Dems in the Euro-elections next year, most expect them to outpoll the Tories, and there's an outside chance they may outpoll Labour too. Do these results not matter at all, or are elections to be permanently viewed through a prism set 5 years earlier?
    Certainly by OFCOM standards Euro elections are seen as separate, for media rules UKIP are a major party in Euro campaigns, but not in Generals. More generally the Euros are seen as separate from the national ones. In their terms, yes the prism is largely set.

    UKIP if they do spectacularly well, and the Lib Dems spectacularly badly, (relative to current expectations) then they might equal them in seats, maybe.

    In some by-elections their results are 0 wins, and they remain with 0 MPs, 0 elected MPs ever (Bob Spink's defection of course being their only brief stint in parliament). If you took all the by-election results UKIP would swap with the Lib Dems in a heartbeat. If you believe the bookies then the clear expectation is they won't win a seat at the next election either.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,038
    As Finnacier said:

    YouGov also has Anthony Wells on, Local Elections and UKIP.

    He concludes,"A year ago in 2012 UKIP actually did pretty well in the local elections in terms of the votes they won where they stood… but got hardly any councillors because their vote was evenly spread even where they did do well (to take some examples, in Basildon they got 17% of the vote and came third, but got no councillors at all, in Thurrock they got 18% but only managed one councillor). We may see the same, or we may see more effective targetting or them getting over a critical mass of support in some councils and gaining large numbers of seats. Right now we really cannot tell."

    http://yougov.co.uk/news/2013/05/02/local-elections-and-question-ukip/

    I stick by my view. A lot of good seconds, "almost second" thirds and LOADS of blame from disgruntled Tories for letting LD/Lab in.

    SFA otherwise.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 15,753
    AveryLP said:

    Here it comes for the second day running...

    Pleased to see that I am no longer a lone voice howling in the wilderness of disbelievers and that DavidL had brought PBers attention to the good news today on UK construction PMIs.

    UK construction registered its highest level for half a year in April, data from Markit revealed Thursday.

    The Purchasing Managers' Index (PMI) climbed to 49.4, beating expectations of 48.0, and up from 47.2 in March. A level of 50 separates growth from contraction.

    Tim Moore, a Senior Economist at Markit, said: "The overall survey findings are an early indication that construction will act as less of a drag on UK GDP over the second quarter of 2013."


    In fact the news was a little bit more mixed than the headlines proclaim as commercial and civil engineering activity continued to decline.

    What is new is that this decline was now offset by an increase in residential construction.

    Will there be any houses left to build in 2015? tim and Ed Miliband are running out of time and ideas.

    jam tomorrow - I wanted mine yesterday ;-)
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited May 2013
    tim said:

    @Charles

    The fall is down to a rise in emigration and a fall in student numbers.
    If you want to see that as success then you have some strange policy objectives.

    Thats how the govt has got back to just under 2009 levels.

    Oh, the deficit is down due to Post Office pension assets ...

    Crime is down due to immigration and global trends ...

    Public sector employment is down due to the transfer of Further Education workers ...

    Immigration is down due to higher emigration and a fall in student numbers ...

    We have heard it all before, tim.

    Day by day, Labour's excuses wear thinner and thinner.

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 11,616

    Small piece of advice, Philip - it might be an idea to actually read my posts before trying (and failing) to rubbish them. The whole point I was making was that the BBC, and only the BBC, referred to their debate as a 'Prime Ministerial Debate'. ITV and Sky used more accurate terms.

    You actually said Michael Crick but what's a mistake between friends? And the BBC weren't the only ones to call it a Prime Ministerial debate (nor are we the only country to have them, Australia does too for example).

    Anyway I'm sure you'll agree that it doesn't matter for 2015 since Scotland will be voting to leave the UK next year it would make no sense to have Salmond there would it?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    @Charles

    "We don't own our own lives: you highlight the relationships with other people as one factor. Suicide is one of the most contemptuous statements of arrogance and selfishness. "

    I must disagree - its a sign of true self contempt and hopelessness where the person feels they are a burden on others and will make things better if they simply disappeared/stopped being the problem.

    Sometimes its used as the ultimate way to get back at an abuser - a friend's husband hung himself from the landing so it'd be the first thing his harpy wife saw when she came home - she never returned, didn't attend his funeral and left it all to the house-clearers to dispose of their lives together.

    TBH, I have a certain level of sympathy for the pain he endured - and that exiting his miserable existence like this was the moment he was liberated from psychological torture he endured - the worm turned and escaped. And he gave it back in spades when for once she couldn't answer back and squash him again.

    As I say - suicide is a very very complex thing with many reasons - I'd never condemn anyone who paid this price. They either remove themselves from the game like Suicide By Cop or disappear to a lonely wood or do it in the house or car or level crossing - they all say something very painful about the despair the person felt that overwhelmed them.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    edited May 2013
    "You actually said Michael Crick but what's a mistake between friends?"

    Philip, READ my post. The point I made was entirely different to the one you appear to think I made, and it's there in plain language. I'm sorry, but that's what you get for rushing to pontificate without bothering to read properly.

    "Anyway I'm sure you'll agree that it doesn't matter for 2015 since Scotland will be voting to leave the UK next year it would make no sense to have Salmond there would it?"

    Yes, heaven forbid that the SNP should get fair access to the broadcast media in an election they participate in. What the hell do we think this is - a democracy or something?
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 3,976
    edited May 2013

    As Finnacier said:

    YouGov also has Anthony Wells on, Local Elections and UKIP.

    He concludes,"A year ago in 2012 UKIP actually did pretty well in the local elections in terms of the votes they won where they stood… but got hardly any councillors because their vote was evenly spread even where they did do well (to take some examples, in Basildon they got 17% of the vote and came third, but got no councillors at all, in Thurrock they got 18% but only managed one councillor). We may see the same, or we may see more effective targetting or them getting over a critical mass of support in some councils and gaining large numbers of seats. Right now we really cannot tell."

    http://yougov.co.uk/news/2013/05/02/local-elections-and-question-ukip/

    I stick by my view. A lot of good seconds, "almost second" thirds and LOADS of blame from disgruntled Tories for letting LD/Lab in.

    SFA otherwise.

    Agreed. Except it is only Labour who will benefit because both UKIP and Labour are taking votes from the Lib Dems.

    The real issue about UKIP is that perversely they will help Labour win power in many local elections and at the General Election they will help Labour win power from the coalition.

    So vote UKIP get Labour.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 10,673
    Please understand I am not on a particular Guardian-hunt but this surely has to be the most asinine piece of journalism (!) even by the Guardian's often low standards.

    guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2013/apr/30/lets-play-eton-fives-garden
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,038
    Plato said:

    @Charles

    As I say - suicide is a very very complex thing with many reasons - I'd never condemn anyone who paid this price. They either remove themselves from the game like Suicide By Cop or disappear to a lonely wood or do it in the house or car or level crossing - they all say something very painful about the despair the person felt that overwhelmed them.

    DON"T do it at a level crossing or otherwise involve a train. Doing so means someone else is implicated, a train driver, who has to live with what s/he "has done".

    I've come across one or two for whom someone jumping in front of them is their worst nightmare, consequent upon talking to colleagues to whom it has happened.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 17,313
    taffys said:

    Suicide is one of the most contemptuous statements of arrogance and selfishness.

    That's a very sweeping statement.

    Some people who want to commit suicide reckon those around them would be much happier and better off if they weren't around. I am not sure they are wrong in every case.

    Yes, it is. But then there are moral absolutes in this life. Taking your own life leaves wreckage, blame and guilt behind. I very much doubt there are problems which are truly insurmountable, even if they may seem so at the time.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    AveryLP said:

    Here it comes for the second day running...

    Pleased to see that I am no longer a lone voice howling in the wilderness of disbelievers and that DavidL had brought PBers attention to the good news today on UK construction PMIs.

    UK construction registered its highest level for half a year in April, data from Markit revealed Thursday.

    The Purchasing Managers' Index (PMI) climbed to 49.4, beating expectations of 48.0, and up from 47.2 in March. A level of 50 separates growth from contraction.

    Tim Moore, a Senior Economist at Markit, said: "The overall survey findings are an early indication that construction will act as less of a drag on UK GDP over the second quarter of 2013."


    In fact the news was a little bit more mixed than the headlines proclaim as commercial and civil engineering activity continued to decline.

    What is new is that this decline was now offset by an increase in residential construction.

    Will there be any houses left to build in 2015? tim and Ed Miliband are running out of time and ideas.

    jam tomorrow - I wanted mine yesterday ;-)
    We only need the Scots to pull their weight in the North Sea as good Britons and you will be able to have loganberry jam with added whisky, Mr. Brooke.

    And that will come from a Dundee factory too!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 17,313
    Plato said:

    @Charles

    "We don't own our own lives: you highlight the relationships with other people as one factor. Suicide is one of the most contemptuous statements of arrogance and selfishness. "

    I must disagree - its a sign of true self contempt and hopelessness where the person feels they are a burden on others and will make things better if they simply disappeared/stopped being the problem.

    Sometimes its used as the ultimate way to get back at an abuser - a friend's husband hung himself from the landing so it'd be the first thing his harpy wife saw when she came home - she never returned, didn't attend his funeral and left it all to the house-clearers to dispose of their lives together.

    TBH, I have a certain level of sympathy for the pain he endured - and that exiting his miserable existence like this was the moment he was liberated from psychological torture he endured - the worm turned and escaped. And he gave it back in spades when for once she couldn't answer back and squash him again.

    As I say - suicide is a very very complex thing with many reasons - I'd never condemn anyone who paid this price. They either remove themselves from the game like Suicide By Cop or disappear to a lonely wood or do it in the house or car or level crossing - they all say something very painful about the despair the person felt that overwhelmed them.

    It may be driven by a sense of hopelessness, but ultimately you are taking something that isn't yours to take, and saying *I* will do what *I* want with this, regardless of the impact of others. That's a pretty selfish standpoint.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited May 2013
    YouGov local elections polling:
    The Kellner YouGov article linked to down thread has a not very specific local elections poll.

    "The Conservatives are ahead in raw votes when people in the areas holding local elections are asked how they intended to vote today. Labour is in second place and UKIP probably third. I say ‘probably’ because UKIP’s lead over the Lib Dems is just two points among all those giving a voting intention, a gap well within the margin of error, but it widens to five points among those who say they are certain to vote. But, to repeat, that picture is distorted by the political bias in where the elections are being held.

    Compared with when these wards were last contested in 2009, both the Conservatives and Lib Dems are down 10-12 points. Labour is up 15-16 points (from a very low base: 2009 was a torrid year for the party) and UKIP up 12-14 points."

    http://yougov.co.uk/news/2013/05/02/making-sense-local-elections/

    EDIT
    More detail in the PDF

    http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/bfftl50kd1/Peter-Kellner-locals-May-2013.pdf

    Con 34, Lab 28, LD 14, UKIP 16

    Certain to vote

    Con 33, Lab 29, LD 13, UKIP 18.

    EDIT 2
    ComRes was:
    Con 31, Lab 24, LD 12, UKIP 22.

    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/7372
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 24,104
    Suicide is often the act of a very ill person who has lost the capacity to think rationally. In many cases, far from being a "contemptuous statement of arrogance and selfishness" it is the act of someone who does not know what else to do.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 5,530
    TOPPING said:

    Please understand I am not on a particular Guardian-hunt but this surely has to be the most asinine piece of journalism (!) even by the Guardian's often low standards.

    guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2013/apr/30/lets-play-eton-fives-garden

    The guardian is quickly become reduced to having to provide click-bait to keep it's web model working. The race for the bottom..
  • Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 1,865
    I'm sure this has been commented on already.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100214941/david-cameron-is-going-big-game-hunting-and-labour-is-about-to-get-its-head-mounted-on-the-wall/

    However, there may be an additional impact and that is to alienate the traditional labour voter - you know, the ones that labour has ignored for the last decade or so - rather than the electorate as a whole. OK this may drive them to the UKiP's rather than the Tories but it will reduce the labour vote and perhaps allow the Tories to retain seats where, if the labour vote held up, they would be more likely to win.
  • Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 1,865
    Eek I've just noticed quick, another post to get off Nelson
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 10,673

    TOPPING said:

    Please understand I am not on a particular Guardian-hunt but this surely has to be the most asinine piece of journalism (!) even by the Guardian's often low standards.

    guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2013/apr/30/lets-play-eton-fives-garden

    The guardian is quickly become reduced to having to provide click-bait to keep it's web model working. The race for the bottom..
    I notice they didn't dare open it for comments. Even the CiF fraternity might have baulked at commending it.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 11,616
    edited May 2013

    "You actually said Michael Crick but what's a mistake between friends?"

    Philip, READ my post. The point I made was entirely different to the one you appear to think I made, and it's there in plain language. I'm sorry, but that's what you get for rushing to pontificate without bothering to read properly.

    "Anyway I'm sure you'll agree that it doesn't matter for 2015 since Scotland will be voting to leave the UK next year it would make no sense to have Salmond there would it?"

    Yes, heaven forbid that the SNP should get fair access to the broadcast media in an election they participate in. What the hell do we think this is - a democracy or something?

    Who defines fair? You talk about "participating in" the election but if you can't be bothered to contest more than 9% of the seats in the election (Tory, Labour and LD all contested 97%) is it fair to put you as the same as the others? I don't think so.

    The Christian Party contested more seats than the SNP at the last election. Why aren't you moaning about them not being included? The English Democrats contested twice as many seats.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    *I* will do what *I* want with this, regardless of the impact of others. That's a pretty selfish standpoint.

    That's true Charles, but here's the thing. Some suicides are copers and self sacrificers who have spent their lives putting themselves second. Suicide can be the only time they ever please themselves. In life they can't or won't please themselves.

    A therapist acquaintance once said that all the depressed people he treated were strivers and copers who took their responsibilities incredibly seriously. There wasn't a lead swinger amongst them.

    People who like to please themselves in life never commit suicide. Why would they?
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    TOPPING said:

    Please understand I am not on a particular Guardian-hunt but this surely has to be the most asinine piece of journalism (!) even by the Guardian's often low standards.

    guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2013/apr/30/lets-play-eton-fives-garden

    Ah Catherine Bennett. A grammar school and Hertford College, Oxford gal who went on to marry Robert Sackville-West. Not in the least bit surprising she is now writing about posh boys for The Guardian then.

    But I bet I am the only poster on PB who has been awarded colours for playing Eton Fives. It entitled me to wear a light blue silk tie in place of the black woven wool standard.

    Charles is a possibility of course, but he seems far too academic to have won distinction on the playing fields.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    edited May 2013
    "Who defines fair? If you can't be bothered to contest more than 9% of the seats in the election (Tory, Labour and LD all contested 97%) is it fair to put you as the same as the others? I don't think so."

    If you lived in Ceredigion, where the only vote you had was to effectively choose between a Plaid Cymru MP and a Liberal Democrat MP, what would you think about a system that gave 270 minutes of representation in the debates to the Liberal Democrats and zero minutes of representation in the debates to Plaid Cymru? Fair? Or just a tad unfair?

    You see, that's the problem with having 'Prime Ministerial Debates' in an election where people are choosing members of parliament, and are not choosing a Prime Minister. You don't seem to understand that point, Philip.

    NOTE : This was posted before Philip substantially edited his comment.
  • Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 1,865
    I wonder that if UKiP takes votes from all the electoral strata it should be regarded more of a centrist party rather than left or right wing.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 10,673
    AveryLP said:

    TOPPING said:

    Please understand I am not on a particular Guardian-hunt but this surely has to be the most asinine piece of journalism (!) even by the Guardian's often low standards.

    guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2013/apr/30/lets-play-eton-fives-garden

    Ah Catherine Bennett. A grammar school and Hertford College, Oxford gal who went on to marry Robert Sackville-West. Not in the least bit surprising she is now writing about posh boys for The Guardian then.

    But I bet I am the only poster on PB who has been awarded colours for playing Eton Fives. It entitled me to wear a light blue silk tie in place of the black woven wool standard.

    Charles is a possibility of course, but he seems far too academic to have won distinction on the playing fields.
    I was a Rugby Fives man myself.

    Oh the shame.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "I wonder that if UKiP takes votes from all the electoral strata it should be regarded more of a centrist party rather than left or right wing."

    No. Only if it has centrist policies, which it doesn't.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 11,616
    edited May 2013

    "Who defines fair? If you can't be bothered to contest more than 9% of the seats in the election (Tory, Labour and LD all contested 97%) is it fair to put you as the same as the others? I don't think so."

    If you lived in Ceredigion, where the only vote you had was to effectively choose between a Plaid Cymru MP and a Liberal Democrat MP, what would you think about a system that gave 270 minutes of representation in the debates to the Liberal Democrats and zero minutes of representation in the debates to Plaid Cymru? Fair? Or just a tad unfair?

    You see, that's the problem with having 'Prime Ministerial Debates' in an election where people are choosing members of parliament, and are not choosing a Prime Minister. You don't seem to understand that point, Philip.

    I do understand the point, you don't seem to understand it. We have an election and the results of the election determine which party or parties form the government and as a result the Prime Minister.

    If I lived in Ceredigion I would not consider it remotely unfair. I would consider it the result of having national news. I would check local news for my own specific locale and national news for news that affects the entire country. Plaid Cyrmu have decided to ignore most of the nation while the Lib-Dems contest 97% of the seats - of course the national news will consider them.

    I don't have children. Is it unfair whenever the national news discusses education? No. The national news is relevant to the entire nation.

    Is it wrong that there's a Prime Ministerial debate in Australia when they have a Parliamentary set up like us?
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited May 2013
    TOPPING said:

    AveryLP said:

    TOPPING said:

    Please understand I am not on a particular Guardian-hunt but this surely has to be the most asinine piece of journalism (!) even by the Guardian's often low standards.

    guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2013/apr/30/lets-play-eton-fives-garden

    Ah Catherine Bennett. A grammar school and Hertford College, Oxford gal who went on to marry Robert Sackville-West. Not in the least bit surprising she is now writing about posh boys for The Guardian then.

    But I bet I am the only poster on PB who has been awarded colours for playing Eton Fives. It entitled me to wear a light blue silk tie in place of the black woven wool standard.

    Charles is a possibility of course, but he seems far too academic to have won distinction on the playing fields.
    I was a Rugby Fives man myself.

    Oh the shame.
    I played Rugby Fives too but the lack of obstacles such as steps, buttresses and the pepper pot, meant it was far more a game for athletes, Topping!

  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "We have an election and the results of the election determine which party or parties form the government and as a result the Prime Minister."

    Philip, explain to me to how you vote for Nick Clegg to be Prime Minister if you live in Fermanagh and South Tyrone?

    Oh silly me. You can't.

    Might be best to stop trying to defend the indefensible, old chap.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    A lot of working class people will vote for "national capitalism" especially if the left party has betrayed them in the most extreme ways possible e.g. allowing the children of one segment of their voters to be preyed on as collateral damage.

    Obviously they're nowhere near stupid enough to vote for a party that represents international capitalism.

    Also,

    In itself the Etonian thing doesn't matter - being out of touch and not representing people's interests e.g. being against their children getting gang-raped as collateral damage, is what matters. Someone Etonian who seemed to have a clue would actually get a slight boost because of the weird deference thing. Being Etonian only matters if they don't have a clue or don't represent interests because then the Etonian thing acts as a reason why and a magnifier.

    so the actual sequence in descending order is

    etonian + has a clue / represents interests
    non-etonian + has a clue / represents interests
    non-etonian + no clue
    etonian + no clue

    i.e. etonian plus a clue is best and etonian with no clue is worst
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 11,616

    NOTE : This was posted before Philip substantially edited his comment.

    I edited and added in the paragraph about how the Christian Party contests more than the SNP but the rest of it (and the bit you quoted) remains the same. The national news media won't place either crank parties or local parties in the same league as the national parties and for good reason.

    If PC or SNP become national then they can be considered in the same league when it comes to the national news rather than the local news. The local news should of course look at local parties - which happened with a local Scottish debate. There's local news broadcasts here in the North West too, not that I choose to watch them.
  • tarletontarleton Posts: 18
    For a political party new on the scene with lots of enthusiastic supporters, then why did UKIP only get 200 folks showing up at a townhall meeting with the charismatic N Farage on Tuesday night in South Shields ?

    Surely there would be more folks than that wanting to listen to UKIP's message if they are due to get 25% in the By election in S Shields

    The BNP won 6% in the last election in S Shields and if UKIP had been running they would probably of gotten 2.5 %.....are we to believe that a political party with no previous presence in S Shields will just jump in and get 25% of the vote ?....hmmmmm....sounds pretty unlikely to me ...let's face it , those Geordies are not the most broad minded and enlightened of voters ; infact , the ones who even realize there is an election taking place will be voting for Labour , or just staying home in protest or apathy

    Labour 65%...cons 10%....libs 5%....UKIP 12-14% ....others 8% sounds about right to me
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 9,038

    "We have an election and the results of the election determine which party or parties form the government and as a result the Prime Minister."

    Philip, explain to me to how you vote for Nick Clegg to be Prime Minister if you live in Fermanagh and South Tyrone?

    Oh silly me. You can't.

    Might be best to stop trying to defend the indefensible, old chap.

    Shouldn't you vote Alliance?

  • Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 1,865
    MrJones said:

    A lot of working class people will vote for "national capitalism" especially if the left party has betrayed them in the most extreme ways possible e.g. allowing the children of one segment of their voters to be preyed on as collateral damage.

    Obviously they're nowhere near stupid enough to vote for a party that represents international capitalism.

    Also,

    In itself the Etonian thing doesn't matter - being out of touch and not representing people's interests e.g. being against their children getting gang-raped as collateral damage, is what matters. Someone Etonian who seemed to have a clue would actually get a slight boost because of the weird deference thing. Being Etonian only matters if they don't have a clue or don't represent interests because then the Etonian thing acts as a reason why and a magnifier.

    so the actual sequence in descending order is

    etonian + has a clue / represents interests
    non-etonian + has a clue / represents interests
    non-etonian + no clue
    etonian + no clue

    i.e. etonian plus a clue is best and etonian with no clue is worst

    Completely agree and the traps laid for Etonians (and other politicians) like how much does it cost to fill a car up with petrol, when was the last time you had a pasty, are you travelling first class etc only highlight being out of touch.

    You could call this the 'Let them eat cake' syndrome :)

    I think the expenses scandal also fell into this area.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "If PC or SNP become national then they can be considered in the same league"

    In the same league as who? There are no national parties. Not even one.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 11,616
    edited May 2013

    "We have an election and the results of the election determine which party or parties form the government and as a result the Prime Minister."

    Philip, explain to me to how you vote for Nick Clegg to be Prime Minister if you live in Fermanagh and South Tyrone?

    Oh silly me. You can't.

    Might be best to stop trying to defend the indefensible, old chap.

    The national news isn't based on South Tyrone silly you I already made that point. Why should the national news be only that which concerns South Tyrone? Doesn't South Tyrone have a local newspaper or gazette for its local area?

    Yes it does, a quick Google search reveals in all its glory the Tyrone Courier:
    http://www.tyronecourier.uk.com/
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 15,753

    "If PC or SNP become national then they can be considered in the same league"

    In the same league as who? There are no national parties. Not even one.

    UKIP they field candidates in all 4 home nations.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 10,673
    @MrJones

    Is that like the Industrious/Lazy, Clever/Stupid matrix?

    In order best to worst:

    Clever, lazy = great ideas infrequently so most valuable
    Stupid, lazy = bad ideas, infrequently so damage minimal
    Clever, industrious = great ideas, frequently so overwhelming
    Stupid, industrious = bad ideas, frequently so causes maximum damage
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "Shouldn't you vote Alliance?"

    The 'sister parties' theory doesn't really work when the chips are down. The SDLP abstained in the no-confidence vote in 1979, in spite of supposedly being Labour's 'sister party'.

    The Alliance MP was the only non-Tory MP to vote for the gerrymandering of the boundaries in the recent vote - not much sign of slavish loyalty to the Lib Dem whip there.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "The national news isn't based on South Tyrone silly you I already made that point. Why should the national news be only that which concerns South Tyrone? Doesn't South Tyrone have a local newspaper or gazette for its local area?

    Yes it does, a quick Google search reveals in all its glory the Tyrone Courier:"


    Yup, when you lose the argument, start waffling and hope nobody will notice. Good thinking, Philip.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 11,616

    "The national news isn't based on South Tyrone silly you I already made that point. Why should the national news be only that which concerns South Tyrone? Doesn't South Tyrone have a local newspaper or gazette for its local area?

    Yes it does, a quick Google search reveals in all its glory the Tyrone Courier:"


    Yup, when you lose the argument, start waffling and hope nobody will notice. Good thinking, Philip.

    I haven't lost the argument you have. You're moaning that the national news won't discuss every tiny little exception of an area in equal prominence to that which it discusses the nation as a whole - despite the fact that local broadcasts were provided including the SNP for Scotland.

    You post specific seats which are an exception rather than the rule, but much as you don't like it the national news media has to prioritise the national news.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 20,188
    Today is Fruitcake Day I believe, and so I shall be making a fruitcake.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    Socrates said:
    "She stayed in a one-room flat in St John's Wood making sandwiches in the shop below for £2-an-hour. "

    That's what all those sheds are for. Still, it's making some people very rich.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 11,616

    "If PC or SNP become national then they can be considered in the same league"

    In the same league as who? There are no national parties. Not even one.

    Well perhaps the parties that contest over 97% of the seats in the General Election covering over 97% of the national population might be considered national. Obscure idea I know but in other walks of life 95% is frequently used for confidence intervals.

    The less than 3% exception being local exceptions not the national norm. Which has its own alternative local media.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "You post specific seats which are an exception rather than the rule"

    There is no rule. You have implicitly accepted there is no rule by acknowledging that there are no national parties, only territorially-based parties. Therefore you have conceded that the premise of your argument is utterly bogus.

    That is what is known as losing the argument, and no amount of waffle about the Tyrone Courier is going to get you off the hook, I'm afraid.

    In your terms, the 'Prime Ministerial Debates' were "local" English debates, restricted only to the three "local" parties. Why then were they used to distort the campaign in non-local areas? Would you be equally happy if your beloved Tryone Courier was the basis for the UK "national news"?

    I suspect not somehow.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 3,845
    The National Trust of Ireland has begun a legal challenge against the UK government over its decision to approve a new nuclear plant in England.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22381463
    Oh, FFS.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "Well perhaps the parties that contest over 97% of the seats in the General Election covering over 97% of the national population might be considered national."

    Oh perhaps not, given that they're not national. Doh!
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 19,978
    Britain is a pride of mangy lions, led by braying beach donkeys. Vote Mebyon Kernow.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 12,328
    TOPPING said:

    @MrJones

    Is that like the Industrious/Lazy, Clever/Stupid matrix?

    In order best to worst:

    Clever, lazy = great ideas infrequently so most valuable
    Stupid, lazy = bad ideas, infrequently so damage minimal
    Clever, industrious = great ideas, frequently so overwhelming
    Stupid, industrious = bad ideas, frequently so causes maximum damage

    I thought that the clever-lazy mix was best according to this theory as they're the ones who are most likely to find a better or more efficient way of doing something. The clever-industrious types are supposed to be far less imaginative but much more diligent, which according to the original model, developed by a German general iirc, made them ideal staff officers.
  • Compared to the 2009 local elections the LDs have lost 39% of their cllrs. The Conservatives have lost 9%. The scale of those losses will eventually erode the LDs ability to campaign.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 11,616

    "You post specific seats which are an exception rather than the rule"

    There is no rule. You have implicitly accepted there is no rule by acknowledging that there are no national parties, only territorially-based parties. Therefore you have conceded that the premise of your argument is utterly bogus.

    That is what is known as losing the argument, and no amount of waffle about the Tyrone Courier is going to get you off the hook, I'm afraid.

    I appreciate you won't have read my reply to your claim that there are no national parties but I've not conceeded that at all. 97% is more than enough to cover the "norm" in my book and be justified as being considered national.
    In your terms, the 'Prime Ministerial Debates' were "local" English debates, restricted only to the three "local" parties. Why then were they used to distort the campaign in non-local areas? Would you be equally happy if your beloved Tryone Courier was the basis for the UK "national news"?

    I suspect not somehow.
    Given that Scotland has its own Parliament and so many Parliamentary decisions affect England alone of course the national news would cover those issues. When you have your Holyrood election how much say do English issues get in the Holyrood debates?

    But the three main parties represented between them took 621 MPs at the election (a net change of only 1 from the previous election without any debates). There are only 533 English seats and the Speaker took one uncontested from those 3 so you make yourself look silly to say its English-only.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    TOPPING said:

    @MrJones

    Is that like the Industrious/Lazy, Clever/Stupid matrix?

    In order best to worst:

    Clever, lazy = great ideas infrequently so most valuable
    Stupid, lazy = bad ideas, infrequently so damage minimal
    Clever, industrious = great ideas, frequently so overwhelming
    Stupid, industrious = bad ideas, frequently so causes maximum damage

    I haven't come across that so i don't really know. My point was class prejudice is more complicated than gets made out.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 11,616

    "Well perhaps the parties that contest over 97% of the seats in the General Election covering over 97% of the national population might be considered national."

    Oh perhaps not, given that they're not national. Doh!

    Sure they are. National doesn't have to mean without exception, over 97% is far more than enough to be considered national.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746

    Compared to the 2009 local elections the LDs have lost 39% of their cllrs. The Conservatives have lost 9%. The scale of those losses will eventually erode the LDs ability to campaign.

    Next year's going to be a big night for the LDs, the majority of their remaining councillors are up. On the same day as the EU Parliament elections.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 11,616
    In the American Congress some seats in the Representatives end up being taken unopposed. I suppose in Kelly-land that means that neither the Democrats nor Republicans are national parties since they don't contest 100.0% of all seats.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Hallo all. Back from a Kew Garden excursion and now ready for the news and all the gossip.

    Does anyone know what percentage of eligible voters, voted by 15:00hrs?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 10,673

    TOPPING said:

    @MrJones

    Is that like the Industrious/Lazy, Clever/Stupid matrix?

    In order best to worst:

    Clever, lazy = great ideas infrequently so most valuable
    Stupid, lazy = bad ideas, infrequently so damage minimal
    Clever, industrious = great ideas, frequently so overwhelming
    Stupid, industrious = bad ideas, frequently so causes maximum damage

    I thought that the clever-lazy mix was best according to this theory as they're the ones who are most likely to find a better or more efficient way of doing something. The clever-industrious types are supposed to be far less imaginative but much more diligent, which according to the original model, developed by a German general iirc, made them ideal staff officers.
    ah could easily be! And yes a quick wiki confirms. I prefer the intellectual/business as opposed to military applications.

    Nothing of course to do with the fact that your man was responsible, so wiki tells me, for the German manual on military command in, ahem, 1933. Which of course didn't work out too well for them in the end.

    :)
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "I suppose in Kelly-land that means that neither the Democrats nor Republicans are national parties since they don't contest 100.0% of all seats."

    And I suppose in Thompson-land the Democrats and Republicans could still be considered national parties even if they don't even organise in certain states, as Labour and the Liberal Democrats both fail to do in one of the constituent parts of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (the clue's in the name).
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    "I wonder that if UKiP takes votes from all the electoral strata it should be regarded more of a centrist party rather than left or right wing."

    No. Only if it has centrist policies, which it doesn't.

    It's flagship policy of leaving the European Union is closer to the centre of public opinion than the EU policy of any of the established parties. Similarly things could also be said of where the centre of public opinion lies on immigration and criminal sentencing.

  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    tarleton said:

    For a political party new on the scene with lots of enthusiastic supporters, then why did UKIP only get 200 folks showing up at a townhall meeting with the charismatic N Farage on Tuesday night in South Shields ?

    Surely there would be more folks than that wanting to listen to UKIP's message if they are due to get 25% in the By election in S Shields

    The BNP won 6% in the last election in S Shields and if UKIP had been running they would probably of gotten 2.5 %.....are we to believe that a political party with no previous presence in S Shields will just jump in and get 25% of the vote ?....hmmmmm....sounds pretty unlikely to me ...let's face it , those Geordies are not the most broad minded and enlightened of voters ; infact , the ones who even realize there is an election taking place will be voting for Labour , or just staying home in protest or apathy

    Labour 65%...cons 10%....libs 5%....UKIP 12-14% ....others 8% sounds about right to me

    tarleton, anyone tell you what a complete twit you are. You really don't think much of the South Shields voting public, do you? Are all labour supporters like you? Naw! you are one of a kind!
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 15,753
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    @MrJones

    Is that like the Industrious/Lazy, Clever/Stupid matrix?

    In order best to worst:

    Clever, lazy = great ideas infrequently so most valuable
    Stupid, lazy = bad ideas, infrequently so damage minimal
    Clever, industrious = great ideas, frequently so overwhelming
    Stupid, industrious = bad ideas, frequently so causes maximum damage

    I thought that the clever-lazy mix was best according to this theory as they're the ones who are most likely to find a better or more efficient way of doing something. The clever-industrious types are supposed to be far less imaginative but much more diligent, which according to the original model, developed by a German general iirc, made them ideal staff officers.
    ah could easily be! And yes a quick wiki confirms. I prefer the intellectual/business as opposed to military applications.

    Nothing of course to do with the fact that your man was responsible, so wiki tells me, for the German manual on military command in, ahem, 1933. Which of course didn't work out too well for them in the end.

    :)
    Oh I don't know, they have the biggest economy in Europe and nobody can do anything without their say so. What have we got ? And that's before I mention the UEFA final.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 20,188
    MikeK said:

    Hallo all. Back from a Kew Garden excursion and now ready for the news and all the gossip.

    Does anyone know what percentage of eligible voters, voted by 15:00hrs?

    I think it's only in other countries that they give information like that. I've never seen it in this country.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    antifrank said:

    Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the matter, if David Cameron is willing to appear in a Prime Ministerial debate without Nigel Farage and unwilling to appear in a Prime Ministerial debate with Nigel Farage, which of these line-ups is more likely to appeal to the TV stations?

    1) David Cameron, Ed Miliband, Nick Clegg
    2) Ed Miliband, Nick Clegg, Nigel Farage

    Call me old-fashioned, but I have a hunch they'd prefer the one with the current Prime Minister.

    Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the matter, if David Cameron is willing to appear in a Prime Ministerial debate without Nigel Farage and unwilling to appear in a Prime Ministerial debate with Nigel Farage, which of these situations is more likely to appeal to the TV stations?

    1) A run of the mill TV debate
    2) A hugely embarrassing story for the Prime Minister
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 11,616

    "I suppose in Kelly-land that means that neither the Democrats nor Republicans are national parties since they don't contest 100.0% of all seats."

    And I suppose in Thompson-land the Democrats and Republicans could still be considered national parties even if they don't even organise in certain states, as Labour and the Liberal Democrats both fail to do in one of the constituent parts of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (the clue's in the name).

    Yes definitely. If neither the Democrats nor the Republicans contested Hawaii and instead local parties twinned with those parties contested Hawaii then yes I would definitely expect the Presidential debates to include just the (R) and (D) candidates and not a local Hawaiian parties candidate.

    However just as much as you love to argue there's no such thing as a Prime Ministerial election at the general election, there's no such thing as a Scottish/Welsh/English/NI one at the election either. An MP is an MP is an MP, it doesn't make any more of a difference whether they're from Northern Ireland or London than if it does whether they're from Surrey or Greater Manchester.

    The constituent parts in the General Election are the 650 constituencies. Clues in the word constituency.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "Given that Scotland has its own Parliament and so many Parliamentary decisions affect England alone of course the national news would cover those issues. When you have your Holyrood election how much say do English issues get in the Holyrood debates?"

    Let me untangle this for you, because you really do seem to be terribly confused here. If the UK national news reports England-only issues, then it is by definition not reporting national news. That may be justifiable if it gives equivalent coverage to non-national stories from other parts of the UK, but as we know that generally doesn't happen.

    The fact that no English issues were discussed in the Holyrood debates was helpfully reflected in the fact that those debates were not shown on prime-time on English television, in contrast to the English-only ITV 'Prime Ministerial' debate which was shown throughout the UK.

    Are you starting to see the problem?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 20,188
    edited May 2013
    "The table below shows an estimate of how UKIP’s vote composition changes as their vote share rises. At first it is overwhelmingly Conservative, but these are the easiest votes to pick up and form a smaller share of UKIP’s vote the more popular it becomes. The share from Labour switchers starts very low but increases steadily as UKIP grows in popularity and starts attracting traditional working class voters concerned by issues such as immigration.

    Meanwhile there is a significant block of LibDem defectors early on that are quite easily won over (presumably of the ‘protest voter’ type) but then very little additional switching from the Liberal Democrats after this (as the remaining core LibDems who genuinely support their liberal, pro-European and environmental policies are quite far politically from most of UKIP’s policies)."


    http://liberalconspiracy.org/2013/05/02/this-graph-shows-why-ukips-surge-is-less-of-a-worry-for-labour/
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 15,753

    "I suppose in Kelly-land that means that neither the Democrats nor Republicans are national parties since they don't contest 100.0% of all seats."

    And I suppose in Thompson-land the Democrats and Republicans could still be considered national parties even if they don't even organise in certain states, as Labour and the Liberal Democrats both fail to do in one of the constituent parts of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (the clue's in the name).

    labour organise in NI

    http://www.labourpartyni.org/news

    as do the Conservatives, UKIP and the Greens.

    And I quite like the Tyrone Courier, I've read it many times.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "The constituent parts in the General Election are the 650 constituencies. Clues in the word constituency."

    Yes, PRECISELY. Hint - that is why you have lost the argument.

    We ELECT a parliament. The Queen APPOINTS the Prime Minister.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "And I quite like the Tyrone Courier, I've read it many times."

    Is it your main resource for Mike Nesbitt pics?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 11,616
    edited May 2013

    "Given that Scotland has its own Parliament and so many Parliamentary decisions affect England alone of course the national news would cover those issues. When you have your Holyrood election how much say do English issues get in the Holyrood debates?"

    Let me untangle this for you, because you really do seem to be terribly confused here. If the UK national news reports England-only issues, then it is by definition not reporting national news. That may be justifiable if it gives equivalent coverage to non-national stories from other parts of the UK, but as we know that generally doesn't happen.

    The fact that no English issues were discussed in the Holyrood debates was helpfully reflected in the fact that those debates were not shown on prime-time on English television, in contrast to the English-only ITV 'Prime Ministerial' debate which was shown throughout the UK.

    Are you starting to see the problem?

    You seem to be of the mistaken belief that Scotland is equivalent to England in our national debate. It is not.

    England 533 constituencies. Scotland 59.

    What you call "English-only" issues - decided by the Parliament being elected. Decided by all MPs in that Parliament.
    Scottish-equivalence of those issues - not decided by the Parliament being elected.

    If equivalent airtime was given to half the issues of <1/10th of the country then that'd be terribly unreasonable. Luckily that sub-section has its own regional news.

    EDIT: What you call England-only news is national news since its decided by the national government.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    For the unPCers ;^ )

    Gene Hunt on hate crime

  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Socrates

    'Mr Obhrai was initially charged but did not stand trial on health grounds.'

    And they always fall for this crap.
  • Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 490
    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    More good news on the economy as construction starts to stabilise: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10032607/UK-construction-sector-shows-signs-of-stabilising-in-April.html

    In April its CPI went to 49.4, well above the expected 48. The driving force seems to be housebuilding.

    Looking at the last year or so the three driving forces for the poor growth have been falling north sea oil, falling construction and falling manufacturing setting off increasing services and government spending. It is looking increasingly likely that none of these forces will be negative for the rest of the year and by the end of the year they may even by adding to the party.

    If so growth is going to well over the forecast. The NIER upward revision of growth today is likely to be the first of many. Hopefully, this will give the government a better press and make the irrelevancy of Labour even more apparent. We shall see.

    North sea oil output seems set to rise strongly for the next four years or so. I agree that growth this year will exceed recent predictions.

    Just shows the stupidity of the VAT cut policy. With steady and slowly accelerating growth between now and the GE, Balls is either going to have to drop the VAT cut policy, thus highlighting that the coalition economic management is working (as last) or he will have to persist and argue that extra borrowing is necessary when it patently isn't. Suspect he'll go for the latter.
  • samsam Posts: 727
    I vote for the letting parts of the UK have their independence
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "You seem to be of the mistaken belief that Scotland is equivalent to England in our national debate. It is not. "

    I'll remember that one the next time the No campaign waxes lyrical about Scotland's place as a "valued partner in the United Kingdom".

    The Thompson view in a nutshell - "England is Britain". We could have saved ourselves a lot of time this afternoon if you'd just come out and said that from the start.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 11,616

    "The constituent parts in the General Election are the 650 constituencies. Clues in the word constituency."

    Yes, PRECISELY. Hint - that is why you have lost the argument.

    We ELECT a parliament. The Queen APPOINTS the Prime Minister.

    Not true. We elect a Parliament which determines the Prime Minister (if you think the Queen unilaterally appoints then welcome to the 21st century).

  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 8,645
    I divide my officers into four groups. There are clever, diligent, stupid, and lazy officers. Usually two characteristics are combined. Some are clever and diligent -- their place is the General Staff. The next lot are stupid and lazy -- they make up 90 percent of every army and are suited to routine duties. Anyone who is both clever and lazy is qualified for the highest leadership duties, because he possesses the intellectual clarity and the composure necessary for difficult decisions. One must beware of anyone who is stupid and diligent -- he must not be entrusted with any responsibility because he will always cause only mischief.

    Kurt von Hammerstein-Equord
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "We elect a Parliament which determines the Prime Minister (if you think the Queen unilaterally appoints then welcome to the 21st century)."

    I'd love to welcome your beloved constitutional system to the 21st Century, but alas it's still stuck in the 17th. As I correctly stated, the Queen appoints the Prime Minister.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 11,616

    "You seem to be of the mistaken belief that Scotland is equivalent to England in our national debate. It is not. "

    I'll remember that one the next time the No campaign waxes lyrical about Scotland's place as a "valued partner in the United Kingdom".

    The Thompson view in a nutshell - "England is Britain". We could have saved ourselves a lot of time this afternoon if you'd just come out and said that from the start.

    I'm a strong supported of the Yes campaign.

    I never said England is Britain. I said England and Scotland are not equivalent within the nation and especially an election to the national Parliament (where you have devolved ones and we don't).

    Anyone who says otherwise is mendacious.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    dr_spyn said:

    I divide my officers into four groups. There are clever, diligent, stupid, and lazy officers. Usually two characteristics are combined. Some are clever and diligent -- their place is the General Staff. The next lot are stupid and lazy -- they make up 90 percent of every army and are suited to routine duties. Anyone who is both clever and lazy is qualified for the highest leadership duties, because he possesses the intellectual clarity and the composure necessary for difficult decisions. One must beware of anyone who is stupid and diligent -- he must not be entrusted with any responsibility because he will always cause only mischief.

    Kurt von Hammerstein-Equord

    lol, that's great
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 4,011
    edited May 2013
    sam said:

    I vote for the letting parts of the UK have their independence

    Are we talking the Isle Of Dogs, maybe?

    This could definitely get me interested....

  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    edited May 2013
    "I never said England is Britain."

    No, you just said that the sole determinant of whether a party has representation in UK election debates should be whether they stand candidates in England, which is...er, something entirely different.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 15,753
    edited May 2013

    "And I quite like the Tyrone Courier, I've read it many times."

    Is it your main resource for Mike Nesbitt pics?

    oh really James you just emphasis your ignorance, Mr Nesbitt is from Strangford, Dungannon was until recently Martin McGuinness country. The Tyrone Courier may though need to start a Polish edition since Polish is the second most spoken language in its catchment area.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "oh really James you just emphasis your ignorance, Mr Nesbitt is from Strangford, Dungannon was until recently Martin McGuinness country."

    Are things so desperate at UUP headquarters that Mr Nesbitt can't afford the train fare to go get his photo taken with his party's candidates in other parts of the province?
This discussion has been closed.